NJ Boardwalk Pizza

[norma427]

Peter,

I think I will go with the high-gluten flour, which will be Kyrol for now. Since Scott has tasted many more pizzas than myself, I believe he is right on using high-gluten. If that doesn’t work out well, I will try a bag of All Trumps.  The crust is quite thin and I will go with a thickness factor of 0.09 to start for a 16" pizza, for about a total of around 500 grams.  I will figure out the formula this weekend. 

The crust as I remember tasted a lot like the Lehmann crust.  I will bake at 500 degrees F as mentioned before.  I won’t be able to make this dough until next week, because I want to use my mixer at market and then also bake in the deck oven. If I can get some decent results there, then I might try the dough at home. I am just wondering how many days to cold ferment for the first try.  I can remember the sauce coming out of the tube and it wasn’t thin, to my knowledge. To me it tasted a lot like Stanislaus products.  Now to figure that out.   

All the different times I had Mack’s pizza, I never remember the crust being that light.  We always bought whole pies and either had them delivered to our place we were staying or ate right in Mack’s. We would even bring a pie home in the cooler sometimes. It makes me also wonder about them making the dough and where they might make it.  It would probably be in the basement.  They have an open shop, so the high humidity there could easily come inside.  When I remember eating there, it was always hot and muggy.  I can imagine it was a high humidity in the basement, too.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

[norma427]

I used the Expanded Dough Calculating Tool at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with this formula for a starting point for the test Mack’s dough.  I will be using Kyrol flour for the first test. I am also using Morton Kosher salt.  I plan to mix this Mack’s test dough on a Friday for a starting point and cold ferment until Tuesday.  I will use the poppy seed trick to see how much the dough has fermented.  I plan on mixing this dough in the Hobart mixer for a longer time than my usual dough.



Mack’s Test Dough- 5 dough balls

Flour (100%):                    1552.69 g  |  54.77 oz | 3.42 lbs
Water (60%):                  931.62 g  |  32.86 oz | 2.05 lbs
IDY (0.20%):                          3.11 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Salt (2.50%):                         38.82 g | 1.37 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.09 tsp | 2.7 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.50%):                 38.82 g | 1.37 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.63 tsp | 2.88 tbsp
Total (165.2%):                    2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:                              513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs
                     
If there are any other suggestions on how I should go about making this test dough or anyone sees any mistakes on the way I am going about calculating this formula, let me know.  Any ideas for the type of oil I should try with this formula?

Thanks,   

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Is there a reason why you decided on 2.5% salt? I had read a Yelp review where a reviewer complained about the Mark or M&M crust being overly salty. I wondered if you might have seen the same review and decided to increase the salt as a result in the name of authenticity.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I was not sure if this would be the right starting point for the salt, but was wondering how this dough would be able to cold ferment for the longer period without added sugar.  My ideas on the salt were to be able to have a longer ferment time, without using sugar.

In your opinion, do you think I should lower it to about 2%?  I never tried a formula with that much salt, so I have no idea what will happen with the taste of the crust.  I can see your point about the reviewers commenting on the salt. 

Thanks,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

The salt level is up to you. We have a few members who use over 3% and haven't complained about the crusts being too salty. If you use 2% and that doesn't work out, you can always increase it the next time. You can also add a bit of sugar to your dough (say, 1-2%) if your concern is that the dough will run out of sugar with a long fermentation time.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I will think this over and read some other posts about the longer ferment times and also the salt. 

Will post when I have thought it though.

Norma

[scott r]

hey guys, just throwing this out there that I could be wrong but this doesn't look like a really fully fermented dough to me.   I wouldn't worry about all that too much.   Maybe my fridge is  different than yours, but if I go right out of the mixer into the fridge with .2% yeast its not going to be uber fermented in a 5 days.      What I think you need to try to do norma is have just enough yeast so that the dough doesn't rise much by the time it reaches early to mid way into the usability window of the dough.   For me that would be about 5 days with .2%, but this is TOTALLY dependent on your mixer, dough temp off the hook, and the temp of your fridge.   I know some pizzerias I have worked at would hit this in 3 days with the temp of their walk ins.   Just make sure you don't use so much yeast that the dough expands too much by the time the fermentation window is right.   

[norma427]

scott r,

Since you know so much more about dough and pizzas than I do, would you recommend using the .2 %  yeast and starting with that for the four days cold ferment for the first test?  I could get about any kind of final dough temperature with using warmer or cooler water, with the Hobart mixer. The final dough temperature still makes me wonder.  My deli case right now is stable at 34-36 degrees F.  That is where I am going to store the dough. Do you also have any ideas about the amount of salt I should include in this formula?  What amount of salt do most NY street pizzas use for a ferment of 4 or 5 days or don't many do that?

My regular dough I am using at market now has 2.31470 % salt in the final dough, but then I am only cold fermenting for one day. 

Sorry to ask all these questions, but I want do what experienced people think is best.

Thanks for your help, 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

My regular dough I am using at market now has 2.31470 % salt in the final dough, but then I am only cold fermenting for one day. 

Norma,

The above statement is correct, but the 2.31479% salt is only with respect to the flour weight in the Final Mix for your Lehmann poolish dough formulation. The total salt in the formulation, however, is 1.75% of the total formula flour (Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181).

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

The above statement is correct, but the 2.31479% salt is only with respect to the flour weight in the Final Mix for your Lehmann poolish dough formulation. The total salt in the formulation, however, is 1.75% of the total formula flour (Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181).

Peter

Peter,

You are right about that.    When mixing the dough I only think about how much salt I add to the final dough.  I then forget about the flour that was used to make the poolish.

Sorry, my mistake,

Norma

[PaperBoy]

I saw this post earlier today. I wasn't planning on making pizza tonight, but I got hungry after you said 'Mack and Mancos'

I quick made some dough. Now I was just shooting for the flavor of Mack and Manco's, not too much about the crust. My dough was a 60% Hydration dough. The top doesn't really look like their style, but the bottom is nice and crispy - but not like cracker crust.

I left the dough out to ferment. I usually put it in the fridge overnight, and this might have an affect on texture.

After I made the dough I went out to the Market to get some groceries, but more importantly, the Mild White Cheddar Cheese + Beer.


I wasn't quite hungry when I got home so I waited to make the pizza. That gave the dough a little more time to rise.

I preheated the oven to 550. I usually cook all of my pizza's at about 515-525, but I know that Mack and Manco's has a nice char on their crust - plus people have stated that they've seen 550 on their Roto Ovens.

I used a pretty simple sauce just spiced it up with some Basil and Cracked Black Pepper and a little Oregano. I did add a lot of water to the sauce to get that texture that they have.

While making the pie I found it pretty hard to dispense the sauce on top of the cheese to give it that swirl look. I put the sauce in a cup and just poured it on. In my opinion I put too much.

All in all it was a really good pizza. The Mild White Cheddar definitely gives it that distinct flavor. I think I'll have too keep working to get that crust Mack and Manco's has.

[norma427]

PaperBoy,

Your pizza looks great!    Did the taste of the mild cheddar remind you of the Mack and Marco pizza?  It good to hear you also want to try and get this same kind of pie, as Mack's or Mack and Marco. 
That's interesting you said some have seen the temperature at 550 degree F.
Maybe with your interest in this thread we both can get the results of a Mack and Marco pizza, though trial and error.

Thanks for posting your pictures,

Norma

[PaperBoy]

Norma,
The taste of that Mack's, or  Mack and Mancos pizza is unforgettable. I've been going there year after year ever since I was young. 

That Mild White Cheddar/ Mozz Blend is definitely the cheese used - NO QUESTION.  It's all about that crust.

I have many customers who get that style crust - I will be sure to ask them how they make their dough. I think I'm almost there. 


This is one pizza I made where I didn't follow a recipe, and didn't write down how I did the dough - I just made it. That crust looks like where I want my Mack's or Mack and Manco's Pizza to be.


OH by the way, Norma, I've noticed you've been writing MaRcos... It's MaNcos   ; )   

[norma427]

PaperBoy,

You are so right about the Mack’s or Mack and Mancos pizza being unforgettable.  I also had been going there since I was young.  I haven’t been able to go there in about 5 years, so I really miss their pizzas.

That’s great to hear that the cheese is mild white cheddar.    That would be interesting if you can find out what kind of dough your customers might be able to tell you about.

Your crust does look like a Mack’s or Mack and Mancos..sorry I was spelling it wrong..LOL..guess my old age is getting to me. 

Keep us posted on your progress.  Do you mind telling what kind of sauce you used and if it tasted like the Mack’s or Mack and Mancos?

Thanks for posting,

Norma

[norma427]

This is the new formula for the 5 test dough balls for the Mack’s pizza.   I used the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculating Tool at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html

Mack’s Test Dough- 5 dough balls

Flour (100%):     1559.77 g  |  55.02 oz | 3.44 lbs
Water (60%):       935.86 g  |  33.01 oz | 2.06 lbs
IDY (0.20%):           3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           27.3 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.69 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.5%):      38.99 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.67 tsp | 2.89 tbsp
Total (164.45%): 2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs

I decided on a smaller amount of salt, because this amount seems to work when making dough for a Lehmann pizza.  I will see what the market ambient temperature is while testing this dough and then decide what the final dough temperature should be.  I also will then decide on the water temperature going into the dough mix.

It looks like Mack and Manco’s are starting or did start a franchise.  It would be interesting to hear how that turn out or if the other places that sell Mack's pizza are a franchise. I really don’t know how long they have been offering these franchises.
http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/franchise.asp

Mack and Mancos Facebook page by fans..they have 7,000 fans.  It can be seen by the comments that they already have lines waiting to get their pizzas.
www.facebook.com/pages/Mack-and-Mancos-Pizza3/485686455246

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I decided on a smaller amount of salt, because this amount seems to work when making dough for a Lehmann pizza. 

Norma,

I put together some thoughts this morning on the amount of salt for a NY style dough, and even in general terms, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10773.msg96036.html#msg96036.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

That is interesting what King Arthur flours has to say about adding salt.  Their explanation on how salt isn’t a substitute for the fine flavor of well-fermented dough.  That adds more complexity as how much salt is really needed to achieve the flavor profile someone wants. When King Arthur flour says the salt also helps pace the fermentation and then has an indirect effect for added crust color, it makes me wonder how much this is related to pizza making, when they are talking about making bread.  I know the two are related and since King Arthur flour are advising using 1.8 to 2% of salt based on the flour weight, it makes me wonder if I should adjust my salt, again to about 2% or a little lower.

I also did try Glutenboy’s formula and found out that by using a small amount of IDY and the higher amount of salt, the dough did have problems with fermenting for me.  I then had to let the dough sit out in a warm environment to be able to see the poppy seeds move.

Your reference to the yeast treatise is also interesting.  I can see in the poolish preferment there are many more bubbles in the dough when I open it.  I believed this is them attributed to the mixing of the poolish with the final dough and it then already has gas before adding the yeast to the final mix. By reading that article I can now understand more about how poolish preferments work. I will read more on that article, so I can understand all what goes into changes in the dough.  Too much reading at one time gets my mind mixed up.

Since I will be using a bromated flour for this test, there are some added benefits for the crust coloration in using this type of flour.

I don’t know if it’s back to the drawing board or not for me. 
               
Thanks for all the additional information,

Norma

[PaperBoy]

WELP... I gave it another go today.

I used the same dough I used last night. Only difference was that I let the dough sit overnight in the fridge.

I did change the sauce a tiny bit, but I don't think it changed much. I should have probably used less so I could get more taste of the cheddar/mozz blend.

Letting the dough sit overnight definitely gave it a better texture.

As you saw in the pictures I posted last night from the first attempted, I shaped the crust. Today I didn't I just flattened the edge out which made it more like Mack and Mancos...

Definitely making progress...

[norma427]

PaperBoy,

Your Mack and Manco pizza looks great!    Looks like you got a decent oven spring.  Are you using a blend of mild white cheddar and mozzarella?  I can see the grease from the cheese. That is one thing I really remember about this kind of pie. The cheese always wanted to slide off the slice, but it was delicious. I can imagine how there was a better flavor in the crust by letting it cold ferment for the night. 

The flattening of the crust seems to be the way to go, in trying to make a Mack and Manco type of pizza.

Great to hear you are making progress.  Keep us posted.

Thanks for sharing the details and pictures,

Norma

[ERASMO]

I went to Macks last night on the Wildwood Boardwalk.  After all the discussion I had to go and get one.  While there I sat and watched them make the pie and everything I noticed had already been mentioned.  One thing I might add was that the dough did appear very dry. I did do some dumpster diving and was able to grab an empty can of there pizza sauce.  It was Gangi Supreme super heavy pizza sauce with basil.  It is produced by California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens in Modesto California.
All there trash is right behind the shop and in plain view.  I could not see a flour bag but you can be sure my corporate espionage will continue.
The other thing I noticed was the crust around the edge was not a chewy crust.  It was more crackery and dry.