Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => General Pizza Making => Topic started by: dscoleri on August 11, 2009, 11:24:17 AM

Title: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: dscoleri on August 11, 2009, 11:24:17 AM
Hello everyone, I am an avid cook but just recently started experimenting with making my own pizza. This site has been invaluable to getting me started. I am posting because I am trying to find some help replicating the Pizza style found on the NJ Boardwalks. Specifically pizza made by "Macs" or "Mac and Manco's". I live in Philadelphia so I have tons of great pizza places near me but Macs pizza from the boardwalk is just something different. I have already figured out that they use a blend of cheese (mozzarella and white cheddar) It may sound odd but it gives there pizza a unique taste. I have been trying different things with the sauce with decent results but there pizzas are notoriously light on the sauce so I am not as concerned with that right now. My main issue is with the crust. It is definitely a thin and crispy crust, but I don't know that I would call it crackery and some of the thin crackery recipes I have tried actually seemed too thin. It is not doughy or chewy at all just thin and crispy. I was going to post this in the thin and crackery section but I wasn't positive about that. Anyway, I'm just really hoping there is someone on here from the area that has had Mac and Manco's pizza before. Maybe if someone here has had it before even if they can't help with the recipe they can post their thoughts on the pizza and maybe help me describe it a little better. I am going to attach some pictures of the pizza.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Kemosa on August 11, 2009, 08:17:39 PM
dscoleri,

I hope you get some replies back on your post.  My family has a place on 7th St. and we frequently wait in line like the thousands of other beach goers in OC.  I think they have an awesome crust, but honestly they often times skimp out on the sauce and cheese.  I know their style is less sauce and cheese but sometimes it's to the extreme. 

I agree with you it's hard to describe the crust.  I would say you are correct in that it's not NY style nor is it Cracker Crust Style.  It's a very thin crisp crust.  Not foldable NY Style, although it looks like NY style appearance wise.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: dscoleri on August 11, 2009, 09:53:03 PM
Yes you are exactly right about the crust, that's why I am having so much trouble! The picture above is deceptive, Mack and Manco's put the sauce on over the cheese so it may look like a lot of sauce but whatever you see on the surface is basically it. Also that pizza in the picture does look like it is heavy on the sauce for a Macks pizza. Anyway my family has a place at the south end of the island near 55th street and I have been eating this pizza my whole life, the biggest key is the crust so I really hope someone has some ideas, in the mean time I will keep on experimenting and post back if I make any breakthroughs.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 11, 2009, 10:51:53 PM
dscoleri,

The oven shown at the Mack & Manco website at http://www.mackandmancos.com/ is a RotoFlex revolving oven (http://www.rotoflexoven.com/EXPAGES/gallery.asp). That oven has rotating metal shelves on which the pizzas are baked, although the RotoFlex ovens are sometimes modified to use stone baking surfaces. The temperatures used by RotoFlex ovens are pretty standard, maybe around 450-500 degrees F. You can actually see the RotoFlex logo on the M&M oven better in this photo: http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/31/05/8f/ocean-city.jpg.

I have never been to M&M and I have never had their pizzas but, from what I have read from some quick research, they pre-bake the dough skins with just the cheese (apparently a mozzarella/white Cheddar blend that is put down first) and sauce (deposited by a hose on top of the cheese blend). Then the toppings are placed onto the pizza and finished baking in the oven. The pre-baking of the crusts should ensure that the crust is chewy, crispy and possibly crackery in places. The second pass of the pizza through the oven will also extend the total bake time and contribute to the crispy and crackery character of the finished crust. From the photos at http://media.photobucket.com/image/mack%20%252526%20manco/chrisoc_2008/100_0131.jpg and http://image53.webshots.com/153/2/2/88/412620288CbQEkg_fs.jpg, it looks like the crust has some blistering, which can suggest a fairly long fermentation.

From the YouTube videos at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&NR=1 and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-5wPLdHwI&feature=related, I would guess that the hydration is fairly high (but under 60%) and that the dough contains some oil and possibly sugar. From the top crust color, I would guess all-purpose flour. I tried to recall a pizza that I have made that is essentially a cross between a NY style and a cracker style, and the one that seems to best fit that profile is the one described and shown at Reply 119 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50909.html#msg50909. That pizza was inspired by member Jackitup's pizza as described in a series of posts starting at Reply 107 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg50791.html#msg50791. A thinner and larger (maybe 16") version of those pizzas, with a lower hydration, might be a useful starting point to clone the Mack & Manco dough/pizza. It should also be possible to use a peel and to dispense with the docking. If you can determine whether Mack & Manco's refrigerates their dough, that would be an important clue.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2009, 11:25:33 PM
dscoleri,
I would be interested in knowing how they make their dough, pizza sauce, and what kind of cheeses they use, too.  I used to vacation in Wildwood, New Jersey for many years and always enjoyed their pizza.  If anyone else knows something about how Mack's makes their pizza it would be interesting. Thanks Peter for the information you found out. As I recall it was always called Mack's.  Its that true?
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: dscoleri on August 11, 2009, 11:28:43 PM
The last time I ate there I sat at the bar and tried to watch the whole process (they make the pizza in front of you). You are pretty dead on with everything. The oven had a digital display and they were set to 500 degrees. You are right about the blistering, that is common for M&M pizza. Also since these are cooked on metal shelves I assume my best bet would be to use a cutter pan not a stone correct? So far with all my attempts I have use a cutter pan.

Anyway the pictures and description of the pizza you made look promising. I am going to give that a shot. You mentioned trying a lower hydration, what do you think would a good starting point? 50% or lower like 30-40? I am going to do a little more sleuthing and try to find out if they refrigerate the dough or not.

I just wanted to say I have been lurking around the message boards for a while now. I usually like to try to search and find things on my own before I start asking for help. I really have to admit I wasn't expecting responses so soon or so thorough. This site really is a great resource and I really appreciate the help with trying to figure this out. I will report back with my results.

Dennis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: dscoleri on August 11, 2009, 11:45:51 PM
Norma,

The place in Wildwood is called Macks, the places in OC are called Mack and Manco's. From what I hear they are all owned by the same family and although I have never eaten at the one in Wildwood, supposedly they are the same. If you are going to try this the only thing I know for sure so far is that the cheese definitely has white cheddar in it. I have heard that they use all white cheddar and I have heard that they use a blend. My first attempt I tried a blend of about 50/50 sharp white cheddar and mozzarella. While it was cooking you could smell it and it definitely had that Mack's smell, but I felt like the white cheddar taste was too sharp. I bought a decent size block of the sharp white cheddar so I am using that up before trying it with mild white cheddar. Honestly I was intending to use mild white from the beginning but I must have grabbed the wrong one before I checked out. Even though the cheddar I am using is too sharp the cheese tastes so close to macks that it is unbelievable. I haven't spent too much time on the sauce but what I do know is that the sauce they use is very thin compared to anything I have tried so far. I think the cheese and the crust really give this pizza most of its memorable taste so I have really been focusing on that stuff before working on the sauce too much. It seems like I am not the only one interested in Mack and Mancos pizza so I will keep everyone posted as I try different things, and if anyone else has any suggestions I am all ears.

Dennis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2009, 12:03:46 AM
Dennis,

If M&M is baking on the metal RotoFlex shelves, I think I would use the cutter pan. If M&M is baking on a retrofitted RotoFlex with stones, I think I would use a pizza stone. One of the reasons why I suspected the use of sugar in the dough is because I saw a photo of the bottom of an M&M slice that was quite dark, which could occur with either a metal baking surface or a stone surface. An all-purpose flour dough without sugar tends to bake up quite light when normal bake times are used.

For hydration, I was thinking something like 55% and maybe a bit higher, mainly because a dough skin at that hydration should be capable of being tossed, as is apparently done for show in the M&M shops. I think I would use a thickness factor of around 0.085 as a starting point and shoot for a 16" size if that is about what M&M makes.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2009, 12:37:01 AM
dscoleri,
I will keep watching this post and see what your results are and what Peter has found out about their pizzas.  I would be very interested in finding out how to make this pizza. 
As I remember the cheese was very greasy and had a unique taste like you said.  I also remember watching them use a tube to put the sauce on.  Years ago when I was younger, I thought I remembered  Mack's baking in a deck oven.  The taste of the pizza always stayed the same.  The last time I was there, which was about 5 years ago, I remembered watching them baking in the kind of oven you and Peter are talking about. 
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2009, 09:59:49 AM
dscoleri and Peter,
From what dscoleri is telling me, Mack's in Wildwood and Mack and Manco's are owned by the same family.  Here is a link I found interesting about Mack's in Wildwood.  It isn't their website, but shows if you look under fun things to do at Wildwood a place to click on Mack's Pizza and their whole history with many pages with lots of pictures. 
www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksPizzaPg1.htm
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: DavePZ on April 14, 2010, 04:47:16 PM
Fellow Pizza Fanatics -

I'm a huge Manco's fan, and I've been checking every few month to see if anyone has made progress on a Recipe.

Anyone have any luck with a complete recipe for a cheese pie from Mack and Manco's?

Thanks!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2010, 08:20:17 PM
Fellow Pizza Fanatics -

I'm a huge Manco's fan, and I've been checking every few month to see if anyone has made progress on a Recipe.

Anyone have any luck with a complete recipe for a cheese pie from Mack and Manco's?

Thanks!


DavePZm,

I still would like to be able to replicate this kind of pizza.  I haven't done much research on how it might be made.  I just read over the posts in this thread today and might try to find a formula that could work for a pizza like this.  I have eaten Mack's pizza many times and still remember how it tastes.  While reading over this today, I see that the cheese might be white cheddar and mozzarella.  I have some experience with those two cheeses, now.

I also was looking over a old post I did when I first started making pizza.  That crust reminded me of the lower hydration in the dough then and also the lower bake temperatures I was using. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg74714.html#msg74714  See if you think this old crust I was making looks anything like the pizza. Years ago, I remember Mack's making the pizza in a deck oven. 

I might try out a lower hydration dough than I am using now and also combine the white cheddar and mozzarella to test how the final pizza turns out.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2010, 07:59:37 AM
Does anyone have any ideas of what hydration this dough might be?  This pizza isnít like a cracker-crust.  The Mackís pizza is more like a NY Style pizza.  As can be seen in this video the dough can be stretched and there no bubbles in the dough.  There isnít much oven spring and the bottom of the pizza is a nice brown color.  The rim is somewhat flat.  The dough can be twirled.
Another thing that can be seen in this video is they first put cheese on the dough, then sauce and cheese, again.

Mackís
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc


The Mack and Marco in Ocean City is about the same as Mackís pizza.  The bottom isnít charred.  This is the same video that Peter posted to compare with the Mackís pizza.
Mack and Marco
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V-5wPLdHwI

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 16, 2010, 10:54:27 AM
Norma, there are definitely some clues in these videos.

First off, that is a VERY long mixed dough, and definitely made with high gluten flour.  Its incredible smoothness and elasticity (ability to withstand the throwing) combined with the ease at which it was pulled out tells us that it is probably somewhere around 60-61% hydration and possibly a mix as long as 25 minutes in a fully loaded hobart planetary mixer.   You will notice that the dough has a yellow color to it, which tells us that it has a good amount of oil in it when you consider that with a mix long enough to get this amount of smoothness/elasticity you are typically going to see a very white dough due to the amount of oxidation.  My guess is that the oil amount is probably 2-3%, but it could even be higher.    The lack of bubbles and voids tells us that it is almost certainly a cold fermented dough with minimal expansion in the fridge.  That indicates that is probably left in the cooler for a good number of days.   From the looks of things I would guess somewhere around .2%  yeast fermented for five days going right into the fridge after mixing/balling should get you close.   The flatness in the rim can be attributed partially to the way the edge of the skin is fully pressed down during the early puck forming stages in shaping.   Looks to be about a 675-700 gram dough ball if those are 18 inch pizzas.   

I have a friend that worked there for a few years.   I called him to get any advice from him that I could, but the only useful info I could get was that the cheese is definitely mild white cheddar.  He remembered having to unload boxes of it from the truck into the cooler, and said that it was stamped with "made in wisconsin".    He was somewhat surprised when I told him that they may be mixing in mozzarella, and said that he didn't remember using another type of cheese.   The flour bag he remembers had red lettering on it, and that could indicate that they were using a bromated all trumps flour.  From the looks of the sauce, I have a feeling it is a thinned down paste product like bonta or saporito, but it could also be a ready to use smooth product like full red. 

Good luck norma, and I hope I have helped in some way! 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2010, 11:19:45 AM
scott r,

Wow..thanks for all the information you can tell from watching the video.  It is interesting that you can tell it is a very long mixed dough, about 60% hydration, has a good amount of oil added,  and certainly a cold ferment dough.  I could mix this dough in my Hobart mixer.

I also thought about how the rim gets pressed down and then maybe the crust doesnít have the rise that it could. 

I have access to mild white cheddar from Wisconsin, so I will start with this and then maybe on another crust, try a blend of white cheddar and low moisture whole milk mozzarella cheese. 

Thank you for contacting your friend for information.  I donít have any All Trumps right now, but will try Kyrol and then if needed I will purchase a bag of All Trumps. 

I can try to figure out the sauce when trying to recreate the Mackís pizza.  I have access to the different kinds of sauces you mentioned.

I did email a person on a fishing forum in Wildwood Crest that goes to Mackís regularly and he said he wasnít sure of the flour, but would ask.  Maybe I will be able to get more information.  I also wrote to a person on Facebook that had created a Facebook page for Mackís.  He is just a fan, but loves Mackís pizza also. I found out he lives close to me, so maybe he could be my taste tester.

I ate Mackís pizza for many years and always enjoyed the greasy pizza. 

Thanks for saying good luck and I will let you know if I find out any other information.

I appreciate all the information you have given me.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2010, 02:52:22 PM
Norma,

I read your earlier post this morning, before scott r posted, and I viewed the YouTube video you referenced. That was a video I had not seen before but it was clear that it showed much better, and in greater detail, the way the Manco's pizzas are made. I viewed the video before going back to see what I had written on this subject before, so that I would not bring any preconceived notions to the video you referenced. As I watched the video, I tried to guess the type of flour, the hydration, whether there was any oil in the dough, and a possible thickness factor. You may find this hard to believe, but I guessed high gluten flour, a hydration of 60-61% and 2-3% oil, and possibly even more. The crust seemed to be quite thin, so I guessed a thickness factor of around 0.09. It appeared that there were a couple different pizza sizes in the video but I couldn't tell whether the larger size was 16" or 18". At 0.09 thickness factor, a dough ball for a 16" pizza would weigh 513 grams, and for a 18" pizza, about 650 grams. I tried to find a menu with pizza sizes, but did not find any pizza sizes listed.

When I went back to what I had written before, I noted that the description of the M&M pizza was one that had a thin and crispy--but not chewy or crackery--crust and an overall appearance that most closely resembled a NY style. This, along with what appeared to be a light top crust color from the photos I examined, and the statement that the crust was not chewy, led me to believe that M&M was possibly using an all-purpose flour instead of a stronger flour, such as a high-gluten flour. The blistering of one of the crusts I saw in a photo led me to believe that the dough had undergone a fairly long fermentation. I speculated on the use of sugar in the dough based on the darkened bottom crust I saw in one of the videos I had viewed.

I had also mentioned before that I had learned from my research that the M&M crusts were prebaked. That clearly was not the case with the cheese pizzas shown in the video you referenced. Maybe they use that approach for some of their specialty pizzas with a lot more toppings. Or maybe that method is used at the M&M location.

I'll be curious what additional information you can round up on the Mack's or M&M pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2010, 03:28:59 PM
Norma,

After my last post, I tried to find where I had learned that the M&M crusts were prebaked. It is at http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/piemen.asp.

Peter

EDIT (2/17/18): For  the Wayback Machine version of the above inoperative link, see http://web.archive.org/web/20080310010808/http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/piemen.asp
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2010, 05:04:33 PM
Peter,

I want to thank you and scott r for taking the time to go over these posts and finding additional information on the Mack and Marco and Mackís pizzas. 

I do not find it hard to believe that they might be using a high gluten flour.  When I used All Trumps the pies I made reminded me of their crusts.  Also when first using the All Trumps I used an oven temperature of around 500 degrees F and had a crust that was brown, something like theirs.  I since have my oven temperature higher and now have some char on my crusts.  I never remembered the pies going back into the oven, but then I didnít pay as much attention to how they made their pies.

I would like to be able to figure out how to produce a pizza like Mackís.  I donít I want to sell that type of pie at market, because I am satisfied with my current formula.  It would be more of a nogstaglic thing with me, bringing back the memories of their pies that I ate for many years.  The last time I was at Mackís was about five years ago.  We were at Wildwood for a weeks vacation.  I just talked to my mother today and she always loved the Mackís pizza, also.  Also I would like to be able to get as close as I could, so anyone could make this kind of pizza.  It might take a lot of investigation to be able to produce something like their pie. 

When I wrote the man on Facebook whether he knew anything about Mackís pizza, he said that he just went down to Mackís last year, just to be able to eat their pizzas.  I since have exchanged writings with him and told him about pizzamaking.com and he said pizza is also his weakness and he is going to look on this forum over the weekend.  Maybe he can enlighten us more.  I found out he lives close to me, so as I have said before, he might be a good taste tester. I will await for another email from the fisherman that meets at Mackís regularly.   

I will probably try 5 test dough balls, like I usually do, when I get this figured out about what kind of formula to try. 

I think, but am not sure there is a pizza place in Philadelphia that is called Joey Mackís and he is a relative of Mackís or somehow got their recipe. I had to do more searching on this.  It seems he started his own spinoff pizza business and by what I have read so far, his pizza is something like Mackís.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/joey-macks-boardwalk-pizza-philadelphia

http://macsboardwalkpizza.com/default.aspx

As I remember Mackís pizzas, I think they are 18".  The crust is not crispy to my recollection.  It is something like a NY style, but not as foldable as some are.  I believe you are right on the longer fermentation and maybe having to use sugar in the formula.  Your other ideas sound good.

I will search some more to see what I can find.  Maybe next week I will do some test dough balls.

Thanks for going over all the information,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2010, 09:27:10 PM
I found a couple more things about Mackís, and Mack and Marco. There is a Mackís in Sea Isle City and Stone Harbor, too.  Itís  tough to find out information about these pizza places.

History of Mack and Marco

http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/history.asp

Mackís in Stone Harbor NJ - if you click under menu it says 18"- menu

http://mackspizzaofstoneharbor.com/MacksPizza/HISTORY.html

Two pictures of Mackís pizza.

Do you think I should start out with High-Gluten or AP flour to start?  I am more inclined to think it is high-gluten flour. Any opinions are appreciated.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 16, 2010, 10:04:20 PM
Norma,

scott r really knows his business so I would start with high-gluten flour. As I mentioned earlier, that is also what I guessed when I first saw the video you referenced. A couple of photos that prompted me to wonder whether a weaker flour such as all-purpose flour was used are the photos at http://lisetta.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/img_2150.jpg and http://photos.igougo.com/images/p290718-Wildwood_NJ-Macks_Pizza.jpg. However, it is possible that the pizzas intended to be sold as slices are not fully baked and are reheated (finished baking) as slice orders are placed. Also, if the dough is fermented for as long as scott r mentioned, and assuming no sugar is added to the dough, then the finished crust can still be light, even with high-gluten flour, because of low residual sugar levels. Of course, the oven and oven temperature and bake time will have their own impact on crust coloration. It was noted previously that M&M operated their oven at 500 degrees F (according to the oven display).

Have you decided on a pizza size and dough ball weight to experiment with and will you be baking the pizzas at market?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2010, 10:41:19 PM
Peter,

I think I will go with the high-gluten flour, which will be Kyrol for now. Since Scott has tasted many more pizzas than myself, I believe he is right on using high-gluten. If that doesnít work out well, I will try a bag of All Trumps.  The crust is quite thin and I will go with a thickness factor of 0.09 to start for a 16" pizza, for about a total of around 500 grams.  I will figure out the formula this weekend. 

The crust as I remember tasted a lot like the Lehmann crust.  I will bake at 500 degrees F as mentioned before.  I wonít be able to make this dough until next week, because I want to use my mixer at market and then also bake in the deck oven. If I can get some decent results there, then I might try the dough at home. I am just wondering how many days to cold ferment for the first try.  I can remember the sauce coming out of the tube and it wasnít thin, to my knowledge. To me it tasted a lot like Stanislaus products.  Now to figure that out.   

All the different times I had Mackís pizza, I never remember the crust being that light.  We always bought whole pies and either had them delivered to our place we were staying or ate right in Mackís. We would even bring a pie home in the cooler sometimes. It makes me also wonder about them making the dough and where they might make it.  It would probably be in the basement.  They have an open shop, so the high humidity there could easily come inside.  When I remember eating there, it was always hot and muggy.  I can imagine it was a high humidity in the basement, too.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 11:25:10 AM
I used the Expanded Dough Calculating Tool at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html to come up with this formula for a starting point for the test Mackís dough.  I will be using Kyrol flour for the first test. I am also using Morton Kosher salt.  I plan to mix this Mackís test dough on a Friday for a starting point and cold ferment until Tuesday.  I will use the poppy seed trick to see how much the dough has fermented.  I plan on mixing this dough in the Hobart mixer for a longer time than my usual dough.



Mackís Test Dough- 5 dough balls

Flour (100%):                    1552.69 g  |  54.77 oz | 3.42 lbs
Water (60%):                  931.62 g  |  32.86 oz | 2.05 lbs
IDY (0.20%):                          3.11 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.03 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Salt (2.50%):                         38.82 g | 1.37 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.09 tsp | 2.7 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.50%):                 38.82 g | 1.37 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.63 tsp | 2.88 tbsp
Total (165.2%):                    2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:                              513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs
                     
If there are any other suggestions on how I should go about making this test dough or anyone sees any mistakes on the way I am going about calculating this formula, let me know.  Any ideas for the type of oil I should try with this formula?

Thanks,   

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2010, 11:41:03 AM
Norma,

Is there a reason why you decided on 2.5% salt? I had read a Yelp review where a reviewer complained about the Mark or M&M crust being overly salty. I wondered if you might have seen the same review and decided to increase the salt as a result in the name of authenticity.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 12:25:16 PM
Peter,

I was not sure if this would be the right starting point for the salt, but was wondering how this dough would be able to cold ferment for the longer period without added sugar.  My ideas on the salt were to be able to have a longer ferment time, without using sugar.

In your opinion, do you think I should lower it to about 2%?  I never tried a formula with that much salt, so I have no idea what will happen with the taste of the crust.  I can see your point about the reviewers commenting on the salt. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2010, 12:37:01 PM
Norma,

The salt level is up to you. We have a few members who use over 3% and haven't complained about the crusts being too salty. If you use 2% and that doesn't work out, you can always increase it the next time. You can also add a bit of sugar to your dough (say, 1-2%) if your concern is that the dough will run out of sugar with a long fermentation time.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 01:08:40 PM
Peter,

I will think this over and read some other posts about the longer ferment times and also the salt. 

Will post when I have thought it though.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 17, 2010, 07:31:05 PM
hey guys, just throwing this out there that I could be wrong but this doesn't look like a really fully fermented dough to me.   I wouldn't worry about all that too much.   Maybe my fridge is  different than yours, but if I go right out of the mixer into the fridge with .2% yeast its not going to be uber fermented in a 5 days.      What I think you need to try to do norma is have just enough yeast so that the dough doesn't rise much by the time it reaches early to mid way into the usability window of the dough.   For me that would be about 5 days with .2%, but this is TOTALLY dependent on your mixer, dough temp off the hook, and the temp of your fridge.   I know some pizzerias I have worked at would hit this in 3 days with the temp of their walk ins.   Just make sure you don't use so much yeast that the dough expands too much by the time the fermentation window is right.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 07:58:32 PM
scott r,

Since you know so much more about dough and pizzas than I do, would you recommend using the .2 %  yeast and starting with that for the four days cold ferment for the first test?  I could get about any kind of final dough temperature with using warmer or cooler water, with the Hobart mixer. The final dough temperature still makes me wonder.  My deli case right now is stable at 34-36 degrees F.  That is where I am going to store the dough. Do you also have any ideas about the amount of salt I should include in this formula?  What amount of salt do most NY street pizzas use for a ferment of 4 or 5 days or don't many do that?

My regular dough I am using at market now has 2.31470 % salt in the final dough, but then I am only cold fermenting for one day. 

Sorry to ask all these questions, but I want do what experienced people think is best.

Thanks for your help,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2010, 08:17:55 PM
My regular dough I am using at market now has 2.31470 % salt in the final dough, but then I am only cold fermenting for one day. 


Norma,

The above statement is correct, but the 2.31479% salt is only with respect to the flour weight in the Final Mix for your Lehmann poolish dough formulation. The total salt in the formulation, however, is 1.75% of the total formula flour (Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181).

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 08:31:31 PM
Norma,

The above statement is correct, but the 2.31479% salt is only with respect to the flour weight in the Final Mix for your Lehmann poolish dough formulation. The total salt in the formulation, however, is 1.75% of the total formula flour (Reply 273 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9908.msg91181.html#msg91181).

Peter

Peter,

You are right about that.  8)  When mixing the dough I only think about how much salt I add to the final dough.  I then forget about the flour that was used to make the poolish.

Sorry, my mistake,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PaperBoy on April 17, 2010, 10:21:30 PM
I saw this post earlier today. I wasn't planning on making pizza tonight, but I got hungry after you said 'Mack and Mancos'

I quick made some dough. Now I was just shooting for the flavor of Mack and Manco's, not too much about the crust. My dough was a 60% Hydration dough. The top doesn't really look like their style, but the bottom is nice and crispy - but not like cracker crust.

I left the dough out to ferment. I usually put it in the fridge overnight, and this might have an affect on texture.

After I made the dough I went out to the Market to get some groceries, but more importantly, the Mild White Cheddar Cheese + Beer.


I wasn't quite hungry when I got home so I waited to make the pizza. That gave the dough a little more time to rise.

I preheated the oven to 550. I usually cook all of my pizza's at about 515-525, but I know that Mack and Manco's has a nice char on their crust - plus people have stated that they've seen 550 on their Roto Ovens.

I used a pretty simple sauce just spiced it up with some Basil and Cracked Black Pepper and a little Oregano. I did add a lot of water to the sauce to get that texture that they have.

While making the pie I found it pretty hard to dispense the sauce on top of the cheese to give it that swirl look. I put the sauce in a cup and just poured it on. In my opinion I put too much.

All in all it was a really good pizza. The Mild White Cheddar definitely gives it that distinct flavor. I think I'll have too keep working to get that crust Mack and Manco's has.



Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 10:31:47 PM
PaperBoy,

Your pizza looks great!  :)  Did the taste of the mild cheddar remind you of the Mack and Marco pizza?  It good to hear you also want to try and get this same kind of pie, as Mack's or Mack and Marco. 
That's interesting you said some have seen the temperature at 550 degree F.
Maybe with your interest in this thread we both can get the results of a Mack and Marco pizza, though trial and error.

Thanks for posting your pictures,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PaperBoy on April 17, 2010, 11:00:22 PM
Norma,
The taste of that Mack's, or  Mack and Mancos pizza is unforgettable. I've been going there year after year ever since I was young. 

That Mild White Cheddar/ Mozz Blend is definitely the cheese used - NO QUESTION.  It's all about that crust.

I have many customers who get that style crust - I will be sure to ask them how they make their dough. I think I'm almost there. 


This is one pizza I made where I didn't follow a recipe, and didn't write down how I did the dough - I just made it. That crust looks like where I want my Mack's or Mack and Manco's Pizza to be.


OH by the way, Norma, I've noticed you've been writing MaRcos... It's MaNcos   ; )   




Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2010, 11:24:03 PM
PaperBoy,

You are so right about the Mackís or Mack and Mancos pizza being unforgettable.  I also had been going there since I was young.  I havenít been able to go there in about 5 years, so I really miss their pizzas.

Thatís great to hear that the cheese is mild white cheddar.  :)  That would be interesting if you can find out what kind of dough your customers might be able to tell you about.

Your crust does look like a Mackís or Mack and Mancos..sorry I was spelling it wrong..LOL..guess my old age is getting to me.  :-[

Keep us posted on your progress.  Do you mind telling what kind of sauce you used and if it tasted like the Mackís or Mack and Mancos?

Thanks for posting,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 10:16:42 AM
This is the new formula for the 5 test dough balls for the Mackís pizza.   I used the Expanded Pizza Dough Calculating Tool at: http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html

Mackís Test Dough- 5 dough balls

Flour (100%):     1559.77 g  |  55.02 oz | 3.44 lbs
Water (60%):       935.86 g  |  33.01 oz | 2.06 lbs
IDY (0.20%):           3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           27.3 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.69 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.5%):      38.99 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.67 tsp | 2.89 tbsp
Total (164.45%): 2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs

I decided on a smaller amount of salt, because this amount seems to work when making dough for a Lehmann pizza.  I will see what the market ambient temperature is while testing this dough and then decide what the final dough temperature should be.  I also will then decide on the water temperature going into the dough mix.

It looks like Mack and Mancoís are starting or did start a franchise.  It would be interesting to hear how that turn out or if the other places that sell Mack's pizza are a franchise. I really donít know how long they have been offering these franchises.
http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/franchise.asp

Mack and Mancos Facebook page by fans..they have 7,000 fans.  It can be seen by the comments that they already have lines waiting to get their pizzas.
www.facebook.com/pages/Mack-and-Mancos-Pizza3/485686455246

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2010, 10:34:13 AM
I decided on a smaller amount of salt, because this amount seems to work when making dough for a Lehmann pizza. 

Norma,

I put together some thoughts this morning on the amount of salt for a NY style dough, and even in general terms, at Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10773.msg96036.html#msg96036.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 11:52:27 AM
Peter,

That is interesting what King Arthur flours has to say about adding salt.  Their explanation on how salt isnít a substitute for the fine flavor of well-fermented dough.  That adds more complexity as how much salt is really needed to achieve the flavor profile someone wants. When King Arthur flour says the salt also helps pace the fermentation and then has an indirect effect for added crust color, it makes me wonder how much this is related to pizza making, when they are talking about making bread.  I know the two are related and since King Arthur flour are advising using 1.8 to 2% of salt based on the flour weight, it makes me wonder if I should adjust my salt, again to about 2% or a little lower.

I also did try Glutenboyís formula and found out that by using a small amount of IDY and the higher amount of salt, the dough did have problems with fermenting for me.  I then had to let the dough sit out in a warm environment to be able to see the poppy seeds move.

Your reference to the yeast treatise is also interesting.  I can see in the poolish preferment there are many more bubbles in the dough when I open it.  I believed this is them attributed to the mixing of the poolish with the final dough and it then already has gas before adding the yeast to the final mix. By reading that article I can now understand more about how poolish preferments work. I will read more on that article, so I can understand all what goes into changes in the dough.  Too much reading at one time gets my mind mixed up.

Since I will be using a bromated flour for this test, there are some added benefits for the crust coloration in using this type of flour.

I donít know if itís back to the drawing board or not for me.  :-D
               
Thanks for all the additional information,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PaperBoy on April 18, 2010, 01:49:59 PM
WELP... I gave it another go today.

I used the same dough I used last night. Only difference was that I let the dough sit overnight in the fridge.

I did change the sauce a tiny bit, but I don't think it changed much. I should have probably used less so I could get more taste of the cheddar/mozz blend.

Letting the dough sit overnight definitely gave it a better texture.

As you saw in the pictures I posted last night from the first attempted, I shaped the crust. Today I didn't I just flattened the edge out which made it more like Mack and Mancos...

Definitely making progress...
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 02:13:02 PM
PaperBoy,

Your Mack and Manco pizza looks great!  ;D  Looks like you got a decent oven spring.  Are you using a blend of mild white cheddar and mozzarella?  I can see the grease from the cheese. That is one thing I really remember about this kind of pie. The cheese always wanted to slide off the slice, but it was delicious. I can imagine how there was a better flavor in the crust by letting it cold ferment for the night. 

The flattening of the crust seems to be the way to go, in trying to make a Mack and Manco type of pizza.

Great to hear you are making progress.  Keep us posted.

Thanks for sharing the details and pictures,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 04:11:36 PM
I went to Macks last night on the Wildwood Boardwalk.  After all the discussion I had to go and get one.  While there I sat and watched them make the pie and everything I noticed had already been mentioned.  One thing I might add was that the dough did appear very dry. I did do some dumpster diving and was able to grab an empty can of there pizza sauce.  It was Gangi Supreme super heavy pizza sauce with basil.  It is produced by California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens in Modesto California.
All there trash is right behind the shop and in plain view.  I could not see a flour bag but you can be sure my corporate espionage will continue.
The other thing I noticed was the crust around the edge was not a chewy crust.  It was more crackery and dry.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PaperBoy on April 18, 2010, 04:34:11 PM
ERASMO -

Does my pizza look anything like Macks?

I'm really interested in their cheese. They have such a melty, gooey consistency that I need to find.

Majority of the Pizzerias throughout Philadelphia and NJ are using Super Heavy Pizza sauce with Basil - then add their own spices.


I'm not too worried about the dough. I think that hot stone heated to around 550 will give me that crust I'm looking for. White and flaky on the top, chard brown on the bottom. Bubbling hot gooey cheese on the top with the sauce lightly swirled on top.

My main interest is this blend of cheese and that sweet sauce.



Can't wait 'til I go down the shore to get some pizza.


Another great place down the Ocean City, NJ Boardwalk is 'Preps Pizza'
I usually compare it to Mack and Manco's. It's much better because I don't have to wait in such a long line, and they have Ice Cream : )
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 04:37:07 PM
I took alot of pics but am having a hard time resizing to post.

PM me your email address and I will send them to you.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 04:39:19 PM
Eransmo,

Great detective work!  8) Itís good you would do all the work for this thread and the forum. Wish I could have been there to help you dumpster dive.  That would have been fun.  ;D Since you sat and watched, do they put cheese on two times?  Did Mackís taste good, like I remember, with the unique taste?  What would be your opinion on how much hydration there might be in the dough, if it appeared dry?  At least now you have given a starting point for the sauce.  I wonder how that compares with Saporito, super heavy pizza sauce with fresh basil added? 

I appreciate you went to Mackís, watched and also went dumpster diving!  Let us know if you find out any more.

Thanks so much for your help,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 05:18:30 PM
The pics I took are of the pizza.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 05:26:02 PM
more pics
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Kemosa on April 18, 2010, 05:28:16 PM
Good observation ERASMO.  I would agree with you about the dough in that it's likely a low hydration formula with not a lot of fermentation.  To me it's not a typical NY foldable style pizza.  It's more like a crisp, almost flat bread like pizza.   Kind of a cross between a cracker style and NY.

PaperBoy, your imitation of M & M looks very close.  Your crust appears to be a tad more breadier (sp.) than M & M but other than that, looks like I just walked into 8th and Boardwalk.  Nice work for your first run at it.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 05:28:30 PM
more
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 05:31:49 PM
ERASMO,

Thanks for the pictures.  :)  You sure do have me hungry for a slice!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 05:34:47 PM
Those pics are making me hungry for that pizza again.

I searched online for the sauce.  Not alot of hits on it.  I will call the company on Monday to see who carries it in the area.

Norma, The pizza had a great flavor and they did cheese it once lightly,  add sauce in a swirl and then add more cheese on top.  They also sprinkled what appeared to be oregano on before putting in the oven.  When you were eating the pizza you could see the flakes on top.

My newyork style is around 64 percent hydration, the dough they were using looked definately dryer when thet were working it.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 18, 2010, 05:36:57 PM
I also noticed that the pizzas coming out of the oven did not have alot of large bubbles.

Maybe that will be helpful with dough formulation.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 05:45:51 PM
I also noticed that the pizzas coming out of the oven did not have alot of large bubbles.

Maybe that will be helpful with dough formulation.

ERASMO,

Since I am not an expert on the bubbles coming out of the oven, we can wait and see if any people might respond to that.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2010, 05:54:54 PM
Those pics are making me hungry for that pizza again.

I searched online for the sauce.  Not alot of hits on it.  I will call the company on Monday to see who carries it in the area.

Norma, The pizza had a great flavor and they did cheese it once lightly,  add sauce in a swirl and then add more cheese on top.  They also sprinkled what appeared to be oregano on before putting in the oven.  When you were eating the pizza you could see the flakes on top.

My newyork style is around 64 percent hydration, the dough they were using looked definately dryer when thet were working it.

ERASMO,

I keep scrolling back to those pictures.  I think I am now starving for a slice.  :-D  The tip on the oregano is a good one, too.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 19, 2010, 10:26:43 AM
The not a lot of bubbles thing just tells us that it is probably a cold fermented dough that has been brought fully up to room temp before use and has been allowed to ferment a decent amount slowly.  More than likely it is not a high yeast formula.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2010, 11:43:42 AM
scott r,

Thanks for letting us know about the bubbles and you thinking on the dough probably fermented slowly for a decent amount of time.  Do you have any ideas about the yeast amount?  Would 0.20 be too much for a 4-5 day cold ferment, in your opinion? 

I tried to call California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens in Modesto California and also tried to go on their website to get information.  It seems like either this place went out of business or someone else has taken them over.  I tried different numbers I found on the web and all say their service is disconnected.  Even their website doesnít work. 

Since they are also located in Modesto, California and so is the main office of Stanislaus, I then decided to call them to see if they had any information about California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens.  I talked to a customer service representative named Renee and she was very helpful.  I explained to her that I did use the Stanislaus products at my market stand and had even just received a poster that I had sent for because there was a slip in my last case of products for a free poster of ďTossing the Perfect Pizza PieĒ.  I then explained to her that I wanted to recreate a pie that I had remembered from many years ago and told her about what kind of pie it was and where the pizzas shops are located.  I also told her someone had gotten an empty can of the Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil and it was from California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens.  She then told me many people try to reproduce other peoples pizza and their sauces.  She said there was another girl in the office that had recently talked about California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens and maybe them going out of business or selling to someone else.  She said she would talk to her and call me back.  She said exactly the same thing scott r said that the Saporito extra heavy pizza sauce w basil would probably be the same.  She even said she would send me a free can to try.  Wow..was I lucky.  I told her about my market stand and how I am only making pizza one day a week.  We chatted for about 20 minutes.  Just now Renee called me back after she talked to the other girl in the office. She told me that Morningstar had bought out California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens about 5 years ago and to call Morningstar to get more information on their products.  She said she thought they still kept the name of  Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil.  The other girl in the office said that either Saporito extra heavy pizza sauce w basil or Full Red could be comparable.  She then said they would send me samples of both.  I then thought, what a great company, that would be willing to share so much information and even help me to find a product that wasnít theirs.  She also said so many people are trying to recreate pizzas they remembered in the past. 

I donít have time to call Morningstar today, because I have to make my dough for tomorrow.  If anyone else has the time, maybe they could call.  If not I will call them Wednesday.

Scott, thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 19, 2010, 12:09:09 PM
Just talked to Morningstar.  Bova foods stocks it in our area.

I deal with savona stavola in NJ but they no longer carry it.


This is the company that sells it now.
http://www.pcoastp.com/default.aspx
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PaperBoy on April 19, 2010, 02:36:12 PM
Bova is a friend of mine, I do a lot of business with him (and the family)

I'm 100% positive that they carry Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce.


It's Kind of surprising that Savona/Stavola doesn't have it anymore.... Another place around this area that I am pretty sure carries it is the Restaurant Depot in Pensauken, NJ or Jetro in South Philadelphia.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 19, 2010, 03:01:08 PM
Sorry

I was talking about the Gangi sauce from Macks.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2010, 04:59:32 PM
Just talked to Morningstar.  Bova foods stocks it in our area.

This is the company that sells it now.
http://www.pcoastp.com/default.aspx

ERASMO,

Thanks for calling and finding where they have the Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Sauce with basil.  I don't get to Bova foods, but Steve (Ev) goes there different times.  I will talk to him tomorrow and see if he will pick me up some Gangi sauce the next time he goes there.

Thanks for the great detective work again,  8)

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 19, 2010, 10:02:30 PM
I have gone back to the drawing board in trying to formulate a starting point for a clone Mackís or Mack and Manco pizza. 
I have thought about the longer ferment and what I might try to possibly get better results.  I looked though the New KitchenAid Dough Making Method starting at Reply #1 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html I am going to keep my current formula, but go about making the dough in a different way for the first test. 
I am striving for a final dough temperature of around 65 degrees F.  I plan on just mixing the water and flour and then incorporating the IDY, salt, and then finally the oil later in the mix. Since scott r thought this dough might be a longer mix time, it got me thinking about how to go about the mix and then the longer ferment.  The reasoning behind this is, if I am trying to stimulate what Mackís might be doing to get a longer ferment, this might be something they are doing, in the heat and humidity of Wildwood or one of Mack's or Mack & Manco pizza businesses.
I donít want to try sugar at this point in the experiment.
I might need to go back to the drawing board many times.  ::)

Flour (100%):     1559.77 g  |  55.02 oz | 3.44 lbs
Water (60%):       935.86 g  |  33.01 oz | 2.06 lbs
IDY (0.20%):           3.12 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           27.3 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.69 tsp | 1.9 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.5%):      38.99 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.67 tsp | 2.89 tbsp
Total (164.45%): 2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 08:00:20 AM
Pictured below is the brand of white cheddar I use.  Steve (Ev) and I tried to make a Mackís style pizza yesterday with my regular poolish dough just to test out the mild white cheddar.  We also mixed some mozzarella in with the cheddar. We mixed more mild white cheddar than mozzarella. I tried to flatten the dough so the pizza wouldnít have as much rim as my regular pizzas.  We used a cake decorating kit I had at market to try and replicate the hose to put on the sauce.  I think we used to much sauce. We put two layers of cheese on the pizza. Steve never tasted a Mackís pizza, but thought the pizza was good.

Of course this pizza didnít come out like a Mackís pizza, but did taste tasty. I donít know if it was my sauce or the cheese blend we used, but the taste of the sauce and cheese blend wasnít like Macksís. 

Maybe this Friday after I mix the 5 dough balls at market, I will then bring home one dough ball and try to experiment with it at home.  This might help me to understand more about how long Mackís might cold ferment the dough.  I will watch the poppy sees to see how much the dough ferments.  When thinking about how long Mackís or Mack and Manco cold-ferment their dough, I canít believe it could be a really long cold-ferment because they make so many pies in one day and donít see how they would have room to store all those dough balls for so many days.

This will probably be one of many tests.

Pictures below.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 21, 2010, 05:01:41 PM
Norma,

In the video you mentioned earlier, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc, it looks like the dough balls are stored on what appear to be sheet trays, with six dough balls per tray. There are some pizza operators who say that they can store more dough balls in a given space when using trays and racks instead of plastic dough boxes. I have seen some double racks that have 52 slots. The trays can be individually inserted into bags (often jokingly referred to as "body bags") or a large bag can be put over the entire rack. Using trays and racks also avoids having to down stack and cross stack.

Of course, you may still be right on the duration of the cold fermentation period. Long cold ferments of several days are not the norm for professionals from what I have read.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 05:25:09 PM
Norma,

In the video you mentioned earlier, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc, it looks like the dough balls are stored on what appear to be sheet trays, with six dough balls per tray. There are some pizza operators who say that they can store more dough balls in a given space when using trays and racks instead of plastic dough boxes. I have seen some double racks that have 52 slots. The trays can be individually inserted into bags (often jokingly referred to as "body bags") or a large bag can be put over the entire rack. Using trays and racks also avoids having to down stack and cross stack.

Of course, you may still be right on the duration of the cold fermentation period. Long cold ferments of several days are not the norm for professionals from what I have read.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you for going over that video and spotting that they might be using dough trays.  I never would have picked that up.  I could imagine them using something like this, because they make so many pizzas in one day.  I am only familiar with the locations of Mack's in Wildwood.  The one is fairly big, with a staircase leading to an upstairs place where people can also eat their pizzas.  The one other place isn't that big, so I can't imagine if they are making the dough in the basements, where they would store all their dough.  I think their are three locations in Wildwood if I am correct.  Maybe someone else could fill us in on how much space either the Mack's or Mack & Marco's have.  I might just have to go down their this summer, if I can't get this figured out.  It is about a four hour drive from where I live one way.  At least I could get to visit the shore again and get to taste the Mack's pizza.
I was also wondering about the longer cold ferment.  That is why I am going to bring a dough ball home and watch how it cold ferments.  I also thought about how unusual it would be for a pizza business like them to do a long ferment.  I could imagine they might be making a dough that might last for two to three days.

Thanks for doing the detective work,  8)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 08:01:02 PM
This is another video from Mackís Pizza.  I donít think it was posted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&NR=1 ..sorry it was already on the first page

Mack and Manco in Ocean City..you can just see the how big the place their places might be.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOfx7bp8ZAs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqVuVBK3ylg


Here are more links to Wildwood, but not particularly Mackís, although some do have pictures of Mack's pizza.  Wildwood has a lot to do with Doo Wop.  You can get a feel about what Wildwood is like, from these links.

http://www.wildwoodsnj.com/

Facebook page that people talk about Wildwood.  http://www.wildwood365.com  http://www.facebook.com/#!/album.php?profile=1&id=58021533588  Maybe there is someone on this page that might know more about Mackís pizza.

Earth cam of Wildwood

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newjersey/wildwood/

Wildwood is famous for their tram cars, that transport people from one end of the boardwalk to the other, if you get to tired to walk or want to sightsee.  If you ever visit Wildwood, you will never forget the tram cars.  It is always, ďWatch the Tram car, pleaseĒ.  You always need to get out of their way. The constant ďWatch the Tram car, please can get on your nerves.

Since I like History, this is how the tram car started.

http://www.youtube.com/user/jerseyflicks#p/u/2/-SUXgVF_sxg

http://www.youtube.com/user/Fulsam135#p/u/5/eIO7Qkl-XGo

A popular song you always hear in Wildwood.  ďWildwood DaysĒ by: Bobby Rydell

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2AOt-g7z5A

http://www.youtube.com/user/QUOFANN#p/u/152/I0ZS5TZeedw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iziRqCXoR80&NR=1

http://www.youtube.com/user/BobbyRydell42#p/a/u/2/aUUmdTOZUck

Our vanishing past on Wildwood and the Doo Wop

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a9y0GhxMpgs



View from Mackís pizza, boardwalk and wide and long beaches.  They rake their beaches everyday.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEVC0Tggfdo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4cBZ-aZUzU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7jdhhwVmGc

http://www.youtube.com/user/bfoxx24X#p/u/13/3E_rKEVYbuw

Even Wildwood worries about if people have enough money for trips to the beaches.

http://www.youtube.com/user/YourMorning#p/u/59/3XaIkltiNT4

Some thing change over the years, but Wildwood and Mackís are something you will always remember.

These videos can give someone that has never been to Wildwood a feel for what it is like.
I will keep searching about Mackís pizza.

Norma

Edit:  I think why some of these videos don't work is because they say related.  I will work on that.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 21, 2010, 08:58:26 PM
sorry, I messed up on posting the videos if anyone was interested in seeing what Wildwood is like.  I think I have them straightened out now.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2010, 12:44:09 PM
I received the products from Stanislaus Food Products, today.  If I decide to try out the test Mack's dough over the weekend, does anyone have any suggestions on which one of these products I should try, until I get a can of Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 22, 2010, 12:58:27 PM
Norma

Savona told me the saporita with basil would be similiar.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2010, 02:07:50 PM
Norma

Savona told me the saporita with basil would be similiar.

ERASMO,

Thanks for letting me know what kind would be similar.  :)  If you don't mind me asking, how long did it take you to get to Mack's from where you live?  I think my daughter is going to go along with me to Mack's in May.  I hope it works out, so I can try their pizza, again.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 22, 2010, 02:14:39 PM
We live in Cochranville and it normally takes us about two hours and fifteen minutes to get to Wildwood.  We have a home there and go on the weekends. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2010, 02:17:50 PM
We live in Cochranville and it normally takes us about two hours and fifteen minutes to get to Wildwood.  We have a home there and go on the weekends. 

ERASMO,

You sure are lucky in my opinion to be able to go there on weekends. 

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 22, 2010, 06:19:51 PM
I received the products from Stanislaus Food Products, today.  If I decide to try out the test Mack's dough over the weekend, does anyone have any suggestions on which one of these products I should try, until I get a can of Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil?

Thanks,

Norma


Norma, these are basically the same exact product, but the saporito has had almost all of its water removed.     I think you will prefer the full red, as there is more of the natural tomato juice left in the product.   With the saporito you will have to add quite a bit of tap water to get it to the right consistency.   Its actually even thicker than what you buy as "tomato paste" at the normal grocery store.  You have probably noticed already how heavy the can is.   

I have found that almost every lesser known brand of california produced commercial tomato products actually mimic the stanislaus line of products.    If you do ever get your hands on the gangi supreme super heavy pizza sauce I have a feeling you are going to find that it is almost the exact same thing as the saporito super heavy pizza sauce you have now. 

P.S, you are way too kind to me in your above posts!    I think .2-.3% idy cold fermented for 2-5 days is going to get you close to the right fermentation point for your macs clone.   You may very well be correct and it is a 1 or 2 day dough, but if you go for that you might want to up the yeast to .3-.35.   Good luck Norma! 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2010, 07:22:49 PM
Norma, these are basically the same exact product, but the saporito has had almost all of its water removed.     I think you will prefer the full red, as there is more of the natural tomato juice left in the product.   With the saporito you will have to add quite a bit of tap water to get it to the right consistency.   Its actually even thicker than what you buy as "tomato paste" at the normal grocery store.  You have probably noticed already how heavy the can is.   

I have found that almost every lesser known brand of california produced commercial tomato products actually mimic the stanislaus line of products.    If you do ever get your hands on the gangi supreme super heavy pizza sauce I have a feeling you are going to find that it is almost the exact same thing as the saporito super heavy pizza sauce you have now. 

P.S, you are way too kind to me in your above posts!    I think .2-.3% idy cold fermented for 2-5 days is going to get you close to the right fermentation point for your macs clone.   You may very well be correct and it is a 1 or 2 day dough, but if you go for that you might want to up the yeast to .3-.35.   Good luck Norma! 

scott r,

Thank you for your suggestions.  I now use Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with 7/11 ground tomatoes at the market stand, so I know how thick the Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce is.  I even need to add water to this mixture before I use it.  I know how heavy the cans are, when I load a case at a time into my van.  :-D

I am anxious to see how all this works out.  I will watch the dough over the weekend and decide if I want to use it Saturday or Sunday.  Of course it isn't going to bake the same at home in my oven, but at least I can get a feel about the taste of the cheese and sauce.  Hopefully some of the dough will last until Tuesday, so I also can try that out.  I might have to adjust different things in the formula.

Thanks again for wishing us on this thread the Best of Luck,

Norma


After looking at this article and reading about half way though about Mack and Manco being from the same area of Trenton and learning from others how to make the Tomato Pie, it now make me wonder if they are making the about the same kind of pie at the shore.   http://njmonthly.com/articles/restaurants/the-original.html 
Quote from article above, nearly at the end. ďAnthony Mack and Vincent Manco grew up in Trenton, where they absorbed tomato pie culture before starting their three Mack and Manco pizzerias in Ocean City.Ē

I never have been to Trenton, NJ and never tasted a Tomato Pie or even saw a picture of the Tomato Pie from there.  I always associated Tomato PIes with something like foccacia.  ::)
I then read petefís thread about Delorenzoís Vs Wildflowers and saw a picture he had posted of the Tomato Pie at: Reply #33 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6907.msg87363.html#msg87363
      
By looking at that pie, I canít tell how it tastes, but looks like a Mackís or Mack and Manco pizza.

This then made me curious to learn more about the Tomato Pie.  I then searched on the forum for De Lorenzoís pizza.  On the spit topic Re: Philly/Trenton-area tomato pie on Reply #19 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg44328.html#msg44328 BenLee says all the dough is opened by hand, is crispy, and is a dry dough, probably low hydration.  He goes on to say they dress their pies the about the same as Mackís and Mack and Manco.  The dough also sounds like it is pressed out before opening. 

Also while reading this thread it says the  Delorenzoís Pizza is cooked at high temperatures and later in the thread it says the pies are baked at around 550 degrees F.

When trentonpie77 makes only one post at Reply # 168 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg88826.html#msg88826 and posts about how his delorenzo's / mack 'n manco hybrid pizza at home, this also makes me wonder if he did know what he was talking by comparing the Delorenzoís to the Mack and Manco. 

Is there anyone on the forum that has tried both the Delorenzoís and also the Mackís or Mack and Mancos pizzas for a comparison test?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 22, 2010, 08:19:22 PM
On this link to Mack and Mancos it reads about how their pizza is a Tomato Pie from Trenton.  I wonder if that is true?

http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html

Top 25 Pizzerias Based on Bulletin Board Shout-Outs

Posted by Adam Kuban, March 25, 2010 at 5:07 PM

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/03/21-week/  go down to see Top Pizzerias..there is

mention of both DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies Trenton NJ and Mack and Manco.

Pictures of Mack and Manco and slices copied from the web on a forum for your favorite pizza places.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 09:58:52 AM
This is an older article from The New York Times, but tells the tomato sauce is spiced with oregano and a little garlic.  It also says in this article that the oven is a rotating brick oven, so that would make me guess, that the Roto-Flex has a stone.

http://mackspizzaofstoneharbor.com/MacksPizza/REVIEWS.html

Pictures inside Mackís, Wildwood, NJ

http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/id55.html

There are 21 good pictures of Mack and Mancos inside and outside if you search under Goggle images on the first page and then click on the one for the bridgeandtunnelclub.com. There are two under bridgeandtunnelclub.com   I canít get that link to work.
            
I will keep searching for information on either Mackís or Mack and Mancos, to give us a feel what kind of pizzas Mack and Mack and Manco make.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 23, 2010, 11:29:04 AM
norma, I busted out the all trumps yesterday (thursday) in hopes that I could help you get closer to your mark with this one.    After mixing up two batches of dough I have settled on 59% hydration as having what seems to be the right feel after looking at all these videos and pictures.     My first dough was a 61%, and it seemed a little wet for the look I have seen, so I did a second batch at 59%.   I used .2% IDY and I let the dough sit out for about an hour and a half after I stopped the mixer to try to simulate what I find often happens in busy pizzerias.    The phone will ring, or a delivery truck will show up, so its often hard for a fast moving pizzeria to get the dough right into the walk in.   This also helps account for the time it takes to scale and tray the doughballs when you are making a huge batch (like im sure M&M does).    My plans are to make some pizzas late saturday night, and by then I think I will have only seen fairly minimal rise in the fridge (which is what I think we are looking for).   I am going to let the dough rest for a good few hours once I take it out of the fridge before it goes into the oven.  This will ensure that there is no bubbling caused by using a cool dough.   I know tom lehmann says to get it above 65 degrees before use, but in my experience that temp can still cause some minor bubbling.   My target dough temp before going into the oven is going to be more like 75 degrees, so I will probably set my thermocool unit to that temp and give the dough balls about two to three hours to reach it. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 12:00:42 PM
scott r,

Wow..great news that you are also going to experiment with this Mackís style of pizza.  ;D  As I said before in another post I only have Kyrol flour for now, but will get a bag of All Trumps if the Kyrol doesnít work out.  I will also change my formula to see if we get anywhere near the same results.  I will also use a thermometer to make sure my dough temperature is okay, before proceeding to open the dough.  Since I am going to be making the dough this afternoon, my dough probably wonít be ready when yours is.

I am anxious to hear about your results. 

Thanks again for all your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 05:19:09 PM
The five test dough balls for the Mackís pizza were made this afternoon.  I used Kyrol flour and changed the formula to 59 % hydration.  The ambient temperature at market today was 62 degrees F.  I did mix the dough for a longer time than I usually do.  I first mixed the flour and water until they were incorporated, then mixed the IDY, then salt, and finally the olive oil.  The total mix time was 18 minutes.  I was surprised that the olive oil took so long to incorporate.  The dough did turn out smooth and was a lot different than my normal poolish dough.  The final dough temperature coming off the hook was 71 degrees F.  After the dough was transferred onto the bench the dough temperature then dropped to 70 degrees F.  I then weighed each ball and formed the dough balls. Then poppy seeds were placed on them to see how much they ferment.  I brought one dough ball home to try either Saturday or Sunday, depending how much they do ferment.

Since only my overhead light was on today, the pictures are darker than usual.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2010, 06:02:15 PM
Norma,

One of the things that I discovered when attempting to reverse engineer a well known pizza, especially one that I have never eaten before, is that there is no clear benchmark. For example, when I did my research on Mack and M&M, the descriptors that I saw most frequently used to describe their pizzas were "thin" and "crispy" (followed by "oily", "too little sauce and cheese", and "expensive"). Their pizzas were said to "look" like a NY style but were not NY style pizzas, and they were not particularly "chewy". Some said that the pizzas were a cross between a NY style and a cracker style. I suppose that both descriptions can be correct. For example, a Mack's pizza right out of the oven will have slices that drip of oil and droop and can be folded and eaten like a NY style, as was noted in the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&NR=1. But, when the pizza cools off, the crust, and especially the rim, can become more cracker like, with greater rigidity in the slices

When I looked at photos and videos of the Mack's and M&M pizzas, I saw pizzas that had crusts that were light in color and pizzas that had darker crusts, and also darker bottoms. Some of the pizzas had distinct rims but others were almost rimless. Some of the pizzas showed signs of long fermentation whereas others showed little or none. Maybe Mack's et al have the same problems as we do with seemingly random, hard to explain blistering. Possibly some of the above factors can be explained away by noting that different pizza makers make the pizzas, in their own distinctive way, at different times of day, at different locations, and with oven temperatures that may vary based on ordering patterns and other factors. It's also possible that Mack's et al have emergency dough versions of their regular doughs and that the ingredients used to make the pizzas vary over a period of time. 

Like you, I noted certain parallels with the Trenton style as exemplified by the DeLorenzo's dough/pizza. Both use doughs that are quite extensible (see the DeLorenzo dough at the links referenced in Reply 155 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg58419.html#msg58419). It was reported several times at the DeLorenzo thread (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.0.html) that the flour used by DeLorenzo's is all-purpose flour, although I don't recall that the skins were tossed. The sequence of placement of shredded mozzarella cheese and sauce used by DeLorenzo's to make a basic pizza is the same as used by Mack's et al. The DeLorenzo pizzas are considerably smaller than those made at Mack's et al, and they are cut family-style rather than the standard way. The cheeses and sauces are different also. DeLorenzo's uses deck ovens, but so did Mack's in the beginning (although the DeLorenzo ovens may run hotter). If I had to guess, the doughs made at Mack's et al are more hydrated than the DeLorenzo's dough and the crusts are perhaps thicker. At the DeLorenzo's thread, it was repeatedly noted that the DeLorenzo crusts have a distinct cracker like quality and that the pieces can be held out straight without drooping.

Since you know what a Mack's pizza should look and taste like, at least as you recall their pizzas, it will be interesting to see what you come up with.

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 07:25:00 PM
Peter,

The pizzas I remember are thin, but not crispy in my opinion.  Maybe sometimes the rim was crispy, after it cooled down some, but I donít recall the rest of the crust being crispy.  The Mackís pizzas donít droop as much as some NY style pies, but there are other NY pies I have tasted that the crust are about the same as Mackís.  I have eaten in many pizza places in NY, in most of the boroughs, but they were just regular pizza places.  Every time I have been to NY, which has been many times over the last 12 years, I usually try another place, just to see what they taste like.  Maybe since ERASMO was just at Mackís last week, he can give some more opinions on how the crust was.

The cheese always wanted to drip off the pizza, if you ate the pizza right in their place, just like the video you referenced in the link.  Your paper plate was always full of grease.  If you let the pie cool down, then the cheese changed, even if you reheated it.

I canít ever remember the crusts being light, but I could guess by having different pie makers manning the ovens, there could be different crust colors.  I can believe there even could be a difference in the crust if they let their dough ferment for a day longer or would have to make an emergency dough.  I just am trying to think about how they can store all those dough balls in some of Mackís or Mack and Mancoís that are smaller.  If they are storing them in the basement, they make many pies in a days time. Even with using racks and dough trays, some of the Mackís and Mack and Mancoís are small in size.

When I started making pizza at a lower hydration, I still had some doughs that seemed to stretch forever as seen in this picture at Reply #55 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8341.msg74713.html#msg74713 I sure didnít have much management with my dough back then.  :-D

I still wonder about the dough at DeLorenzo's being similar.  I read somewhere that a man commented on how he would like to have the pies together to compare, because he thought they were alike.  That made me wonder if he had tried all three pies, because he had commented on their similarity. 

I hope I can get down to Mackís in May and see what my opinion is now. I would observe a lot more. I still can remember the taste of Mackís pizza, so at least that might help me to know if the pizza tastes right, while doing the tests.  This is a pizza I never will forget.

I donít know how much the difference is in mild cheddar cheeses or what Mackís really uses.  Maybe we will find this out in time.

I can imagine how hard it is to reverse engineer a pizza.  You have done this with success.  :)  I hope with time we will get this figured out.

I am also anxious to hear how scott r experiment is going.  I wonder if his dough looked anything like mine?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2010, 08:07:41 PM
Norma,

I like to work the numbers. For example, I would be interested in knowing what a typical dough ball at Mack's weighs or, failing that, the weight of a typical fully baked pizza with only sauce and cheese. If I were to go to Mack's, I would bring a tape measure, scale and camera with me. In your case, since you are a professional from an alien land (Pennsylvania) and not a likely competitor threatening their enterprise, they might confide in you about their pizzas, including type/brand of flour used, dough ball weight and typical bake temperatures/times (you will also be able to view the temperature display for their oven). I'm sure that you would also survey the operation for signs of how they make their pizzas (e.g., mixer, coolers, etc).

The video you posted earlier, taken together with data like dough ball/pizza weight, would seem to be valuable to estimate the amount of sauce and cheeses to use. There is no exactitude on amount of sauce and cheeses used at Mack's, because of the free-throwing of cheeses and the hose method for the sauce, so a modest variation would not alter things in any material way. If you can get a sauce that is similar to what Mack's uses, and run a few cheese blend experiments, and use your oven at market, you might come pretty close to what Mack's does.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2010, 09:30:41 PM


Peter,

I can always see you are about numbers, but this time is different.  If I get to go to Mackís I will take the needed equipment along.  I kind of doubt they would confide in me about their pizzas, but it is worth a try.  I will ask the questions and also note what is going on inside their pizza business.  The times I was there, I never saw a mixer, so that leads me to believe they are making the dough in the basement.  When scott r said he talked to his friend that worked there, he also might know the answers to those unanswered questions. 

I would like to know a starting point for the cheese, but canít estimate how much cheese they use.  When making the test pie on Tuesday, just to see how the cheese tasted on the finished pie, it didnít taste anything like Mackís.  I didnít measure how much cheese Steve and I put on that pie, but will weigh the amounts of both cheeses this time and also the sauce. I think my sauce was a little to thick on Tuesday.  I also use different herbs in the sauce for market, so that could have affected the overall taste.  I really donít think they use that much sauce on their pizzas.  I will use the cake decorator again to apply the sauce. 

I believe the best place to test the Mackís pizza is at market, also.  Hopefully the dough is okay Tuesday.  I can then try more pizzas at home to see what kind of results can be achieved in my home oven.  There are so many members on this forum that are very creative in their use of a home oven, so if we all ever get this figured out, then any member that wanted to taste a Mackís style pizza could.  We will all see what happens.

I have already checked the dough in my refrigerator 3 times since I came home from market.  :-D


Norma 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2010, 09:04:35 AM
I have been corresponding with the man that wrote about DeLorenzoís pizza being similar to Mack and Manco's pizza.

Here is some of what he wrote in the two times we have corresponded.  Maybe we can also get more information about DeLorenzoís pies.  ::)

I grew up about 1,500 feet from DeLorenzo's on Hamilton Avenue. I go there about ten times a year.It is superb. It is a thin very crispy crusted pizza that features a clean flavor of superior olive oil, and fresh tomato flavor. I must get down to Ocean City to taste Mack and Manco's soon. I always loved it's flavor in the past. Maruca's on the boardwalk in Seaside Park is also of high quality.
P.S. I had a very good pie this afternoon in Trenton: Papa's Tomato Pies, the second oldest pizzeria in America.

My family goes out to Lancaster County about once a year. I believe I know where you are, not far from Greystone Manor. I'll have to look you up if we come there this summer. I'll ask what type of flour they use, but one thing I do know is that their use of olive oil is of the highest quality; that is, it isn't just an ordinary blend it's pure olive oil, perhaps extra virgin, which costs more but tastes superior. I am not a baker but the aroma OUTSIDE DeLorenzo's is of the fine smell of good quality olive oil. That much I know. Are you Amish? We've been coming to Pennsylvania for decades. We love the Amish and we love your area.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2010, 07:07:54 PM
Pinocchio is a fictional character that first appeared in 1883, in The Adventures of Pinocchio by Carlo Collodi,  Carved from a piece of pine by a woodcarver named Geppetto in a small Italian village, he was created as a wooden puppet, but dreamt of becoming a real boy. The name Pinocchio is a Tuscan word meaning "pine nutĒ.

The story of Pinocchio is fascinating. It goes along the story lines of... "Every time you tell a lie, your nose will grow. When you tell the truth, it will shrink," said the Blue Fairy.

In Disneyís production of ďPinocchioĒ, Jiminy Cricket watches Geppeto  finish the work on Pinocchio.  The Blue Fairy asks if Jiminy would serve as Pinocchio's conscience, a task he accepts.  There are many adventures in this Disney production, but in the end, the Blue Fairy decides that Pinocchio has proven himself unselfish and thus fulfills her promise to turn him into a real boy, bringing him back to life, much to the delight of Geppetto and Jiminy.

When Jiminy Cricket sings he song "When You Wish upon a Star", it reminds me of wishing for this dough to turn into a Mackís pizza.  Pinocchio and Geppetto are also standing over the dough wishing the same thing.  :)

The poppy seeds are expanding laterally, but Pinocchio and Geppeto said to wait until tomorrow to try and make the pizza.  I guess they know what they are talking about.  ::)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2010, 03:54:35 PM
This is the first attempt to make a pie like Mackís at home.  I ran into some problems today, while trying to make this pie.  I had planned out how I was going to make this pie.  The one problem was I took the dough ball out of the refrigerator this morning at 9:00 am to let it warm up.  I then should have grated the cheese at market, because my food processor or grater doesnít grate the cheese as coarsely. As a starting point with the cheeses, I used 5.5 oz. of mild white cheddar and 5.5 oz. of Mozzarella.  Since I am not sure if Mackís uses all mild white cheddar or what their blend is, this would give me a good start in deciding if I needed to go up or down with the mozzarella.
I used 10 oz. of the Full Red Sauce and added 1 gr of Garlic powder. This sauce seems to have a very fresh flavor. It looked like about the same consistency as what Mackís uses in their hoses. Next I measured out 1 gr of oregano to put on the top of the pizza, before going into the oven.   

The dough ball coming out of the refrigerator did look like the first two pictures, top and bottom.  I didnít expect any company today, but about 10:00 am, company came.  Of course I was happy to receive company, but didnít pay any attention to the dough ball on the table.  The dough ball stayed on the table about an hour more than I wanted it to. I then looked at the dough ball and by looking at the poppy seeds could see the dough was really starting to ferment more than I had planned. Third picture below. The dough ball was then put back into the refrigerator until I could heat the oven and get the other things out I needed. 

I must have had a duh moment when thinking about making this pizza and didnít plan very well.  I forgot I had taken my larger peel to market, incase my other one would spit.  I only then had an almost 14" peel to use.  Well..I proceeded. 

I took the dough ball out of the refrigerator and didnít give it anymore warm up time.  The dough handled well and I could even toss it.  Then another dilemma. Mission Control..we do have a problem. How do you put a 16" inch pizza on the smaller peel.  The sides draped over the two side edges.  I proceeded and dressed the pie.  When I went to put the pie on the stone, the edge of the one side stuck to the stone before I could get the pizza off the peel.  Well finally I got the pizza on the stone. Of course some of the cheese had to drip off on the one side and made a burnt mess in the bottom of the oven.  The pizza then baked.

When I opened the oven door it did smell like a Mackís pizza.  I was then anxious to taste it.  In my opinion it didnít have enough mild white cheddar and I will need to add more mild white cheddar and less mozzarella the next time.  The sauce did closely resemble the Mackís pizza.

The stars werenít aligned today.

Norma

Edit:  The sauce and cheese weren't placed to the edges as much as I had planned, because I wondered what was going to happen with the smaller peel.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 25, 2010, 03:56:36 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 08:55:28 AM
A slice of the pizza made yesterday was reheated this morning to see if I could detect the flavor of the white mild cheddar cheese.  I first sampled a small part of a slice cold.  Then reheated the rest of the slice.  What surprised me, was I couldnít detect much white cheddar flavor.  I sample the mild white cheddar cheese plus the 2 kinds of mozzarella when I grate them each week at market.  I am now wondering how much cheddar could be used or if Mackís might use a medium or sharp cheddar. I donít think there is much difference in cheddar in relation to color because they add a coloring additive to cheddar that comes from a plant extract of the achiote tree called annatto, which gives some cheddar the darker or orange color.  Since I want to try to make this Mackís pizza as authentic as I can, I donít want to use colored cheddar. 

When I talk to my supplier of the cheeses I use at market, I sometimes talk to him about what kinds of blends different pizza businesses are using around our area.  From what he has told me, there arenít a lot of businesses that are using a lot of cheddar in their blend.  I will have to ask him again about what kinds of cheddar they carry.  They do supply deli's with cheese, so they should also carry the mild or sharp cheddar.

I read somewhere on the web that Mackís might be using a stronger cheddar than the mild.  Does anyone have any opinions on this or have experiences in using a medium or sharp cheddar, when making a pizza? 

I am also curious about scott r made out with his pizza and how it looked and tasted.  ::)

I did edit my last post on why the cheese and sauce weren't put to the edges more.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2010, 10:09:53 AM
Norma,

When I was playing around with the Papa Gino's clone doughs/pizzas, I used a blend of low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese, New York sharp white cheddar cheese, and grated Romano cheese. The NY sharp white cheddar cheese was the only white cheddar cheese that I could find at my local supermarket that was reasonably priced. The ratios I tried were 70/28/2 (mozz/cheddar/Romano) and 75/23/2. I could detect the white cheddar cheese in both blends. Interestingly, when I later had a real Papa Gino's pizza, I could not tell that the cheese blend included cheddar cheese. I suspect that PGs was either using a mild white cheddar cheese or a stronger white cheddar cheese in small amounts.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 10:40:42 AM
Peter,

Thanks you for telling me what your experiences were is using the sharp white cheddar in the blend.  That is also interesting that you then didnít note the taste of cheddar when you tried the real Papa Gino's pizza.  I also notice when using my blend at market you canít detect the mild white cheddar in the finished pizza.

I think, but donít know, that whatever Mackís is using by the way of cheese,  this is why their pizza tastes so different.  The pizza I made yesterday had the smell of Mackís pizza, but not the taste in the cheese.  Even this morning when I ate some cold and then reheated, I couldnít really taste the cheddar that much.  I believed in time, this could be something that could be figured out.

Maybe someone else will also have an opinion on the cheddar cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2010, 11:39:42 AM
Norma,

You might recall from the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&NR=1 that the young father held up a slice of the Mack's pizza to let it drip, at which point the cheeses started to slide off the slice, at about 1:15-1:22 of the video. Since the pizza was a basic cheese pizza without any other toppings, the dripping would have to come from either or both of the sauce and cheeses. I also recall from my reading that customers frequently complained that the Mack's pizzas were excessively oily, and I remember that one commentor blamed the cheddar cheese. As you know, different cheeses have different amounts of fat (e.g., whole milk versus part-skim and mozzarella versus cheddar) and can oil off differently during the bake. The amount of cheese(s) will also be a factor, as well as the condition of the pizza at the time of eating. For example, in the video, the pizza looked like it was hot right out of the oven and had not yet cooled as to allow the cheeses and fats to congeal.

When I checked the Nutrition Facts for the LMPS mozzarella cheese and the NY sharp white cheddar cheese currently in my refrigerator, the cheddar cheese has 50% more total fat than the LMPS mozzarella cheese for a same-size serving (one ounce). If you can replicate the cheese types and amounts so that a freshly baked slice drips of the fats and other liquids, you might be able to come closer to the cheese aspect of the Mack's clone that you are after.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 12:15:42 PM
Peter,

Thanks you going over the video and also Nutritional Facts on the two cheeses you have.  That is interesting you have noted that the cheddar has much more fat than the mozzarella.  I will look on the Nutritional Facts on the white cheddar when I go to market today.  That will give another clue in what might be in the cheeses.  I will have to call my supplier and see if he knows any thing else about what kinds of cheddar he carries or also their fat content.  I will do that in the next few days.  I now 3 different cheeses in my blend at market and will also see what their fat content is.

As to the cheese sliding off the pies at Mack's, that is part of the experience in their pies being different.  When they are hot, you try to keep all the cheese on while taking a bite.  The cheese is really gooey.  If you look at ERASMOís pictures of the pie he purchased it appears the pie has cooled down some. The customers that complain that the cheese is too oily, probably arenít the ones that enjoy this type of pizza.

I have been corresponding with another person that is working at Wildwood this year.  This person has eaten Mackís pizza 4 times this year, so far. He has worked at Wildwood for the past few years. His only complaint was the one day he went to get a slice and it had to be reheated and then the slice wasnít good...hmmm

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 26, 2010, 02:54:01 PM
norma, I wish I had a camera to show you the pizza I made, but I dont.   All I can say is that I am pretty sure the 59% hydration seems about right.   Also, my friend that worked at macs didn't remember there being two cheeses blended together.   I think you should try 100% mild white cheddar from wisconsin. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 05:54:09 PM
scott r,

Thanks for telling me the 59% hydration seems about right and also telling that I should try all white cheddar.  I had also wondered about that since you said in your other post, that your friend didnít remember unloading anything but mild white cheddar.  When I tasted the pie it seemed like there wasnít enough mild white cheddar.  I have the mild white cheddar from Wisconsin, but am not sure if itís the right kind.  I did just grate white cheddar today and have it in a separate container to try tomorrow.  This what my dough ball looked like today, from Friday.  I wish I could have seen your pie and also tasted it.  :)  Did you ever eat pizza at Mackís or Mack and Manco?  Did your friend give you an opinion on how he thought Mackís pies were?

Norma

Peter,

I did check on my cheeses today and found that 1 oz. of mild white cheddar had 9 gr. of fat, low moisture whole cheese mozzarella had 7 gr of fat, and 1950 Brand 127 low moisture part skim mozzarella had 5 gr of fat.  After reading what scott r just posted and seeing the amount of fat in the mild white cheddar, I could now believe how the cheese would get gooey and slide off, if this is what they are using in the Mackís pie.  This could then create part of the unique taste of Mackís and Mack and Manco.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: widespreadpizza on April 26, 2010, 09:57:36 PM
Norma,  without re reading the whole thread,  I remember you saying that the sauce went on top of the pizza at Mack's.  That would further suggest a 100% cheddar blend to me,  as the top sauce would keep the cheddar from burning up.  Also,  fwiw,  the sharper the cheddar,  the quicker it breaks and burns in my experience.  -marc
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 10:19:19 PM
widespreadpizza,

No need to re read this whole thread. There are two layers of cheese that go on the pizza.  If you look at this video it shows how the pies are dressed.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc

I appreciate the information how sharper cheddar breaks down and burns.  :) I never tried sharp cheddar on a pie, so my experience is limited. 

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on April 26, 2010, 10:51:28 PM
Norma,

I went to Bova today. I have a can of Gangi for you. I'll bring it along tomorrow.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 26, 2010, 10:57:34 PM
Norma,

I went to Bova today. I have a can of Gangi for you. I'll bring it along tomorrow.

Steve,

Great news to hear!  ;D  We will get to try the Mack's pizza tomorrow.  With all the help the forum members are giving, hopefully we will someday get this pizza right.

Thanks so much,  :)

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 09:03:08 AM
Steve brought the Gangi Supreme with basil to market yesterday as can be seen in the picture below.  We both tasted the sauce right out of the can.  Since I had also tasted the Full Red right out of the can, I didnít like the taste of the Gangi near as much.  We had to add water to the Gangi to get as near as we thought would be the consistency of Mackís sauce.  We then decided the sauce needed a extra kick, so we added Ĺ tsp. sugar and 1/4 tsp. garlic powder. This was added to 18 oz. of the Gangi sauce. We put 18 oz. of Gangi sauce in the cake decorating kit to apply the sauce.  Of course some of the sauce stuck to the bag of the cake decorating kit and not all was applied to the pizza.

We used 12 oz. of mild white cheddar that was grated with the Pelican Head.  When I had grated the cheese on Monday, it had seemed to coarse, so I put it though the grater, again. 

While we were making the pizza, I was anxious to try the finished product.  I kept smelling to see if I could detect the smell of Mackís pizza, but I couldnít. 

I should have applied more sauce to the edges. 

This dough was very easy to open and it could be twirled many times in the air.  Although I am not a professional twirler like Mackís piemen, I had fun twirling the dough.  The dough didnít tear, after repeatedly throwing into the air.  Steve commented that you could keep stretching this dough almost forever.

Although the cheese was gooey, runny and did have a lot of grease like Mackís pizza, in my opinion the taste of the cheddar wasnít strong enough.  Wonder what kind of cheddar cheese Mackís uses. ::)

When Steve and I tasted the finished pizza the Gangi sauce in baked pizza did taste like Mackís pizza in my opinion.

I gave Steve a dough ball and froze the other two to experiment with.

Any opinions on what kind of cheddar to try next?  ???

I was talking to Steve about wondering since I am now making pizza, if this pizza isnít a fantasy in my mind because it was my favorite pizza for so many years.  I will have to wait and see if I get to taste the real Mackís pizza, if this just stuck in my mind for so many years or if it is something that is still special to me.  Steve and I both enjoyed the gooey, runny, greasy cheese.

At least I didn't have the problems of the peel not being the right size and the pizza sticking to the stone today.  The stars are getting better.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 09:06:27 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 28, 2010, 09:44:39 AM
Norma

What was your final dough formulation?

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 09:51:30 AM
Norma

What was your final dough formulation?



ERASMO,

This is what I used for the formula.  Are you going to give the Mack's pizza a try, also?

Mackís test-5 dough balls 59% hydration



Flour (100%):        1569.32 g  |  55.36 oz | 3.46 lbs
Water (59%):          925.9 g  |  32.66 oz | 2.04 lbs
IDY (0.20%):             3.14 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.04 tsp | 0.35 tbsp
Salt (1.75%):           27.46 g | 0.97 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.72 tsp | 1.91 tbsp
Olive Oil (2.5%):        39.23 g | 1.38 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.72 tsp | 2.91 tbsp
Total (163.45%):   2565.05 g | 90.48 oz | 5.65 lbs | TF = 0.09
Single Ball:   513.01 g | 18.1 oz | 1.13 lbs

Thanks for your help with the Gangi sauce.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 28, 2010, 09:58:12 AM
Norma

My espionage will continue.  I am down  the shore every weekend and will continue my "Research".

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 10:02:13 AM
Norma

My espionage will continue.  I am down  the shore every weekend and will continue my "Research".




ERASMO,

Great to hear your espionage will continue.  ;D  I hope I also can get some information if I can get to Mack's.  I am still wondering about the cheddar, because in my opinion the mild cheddar wasn't strong enough.

Thanks for all your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 28, 2010, 12:06:28 PM
Norma,

After looking at the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc several times, I wondered whether a plastic squeeze bottle might be usable to "hose" the sauce onto a pizza in a series of circular/spiral motions. So, I took my small Wilton squeeze bottle, as shown below, and filled it with a pizza sauce that I felt had roughly the same consistency as the Mack's pizza sauce that I saw in the video. This is the same squeeze bottle that I used to make the Papa John's clone dessert pizzas. I did not alter the size of the opening of the tip. It is 1/8" in diameter.

I found that I was able squeeze the bottle to deposit the sauce on a recent pizza (14") in a fairly steady stream much the same way as is shown in the video. Of course, for a large pizza requiring a fair amount of sauce, I would have to use a larger squeeze bottle.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 28, 2010, 01:17:39 PM
Peter,

Thank you again for being creative and thinking of using a plastic squeeze bottle to simulate a ďhoseĒ, in applying the sauce.  I have two squeeze bottles at market and will measure the diameter of the tip.  Your idea is great!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on April 28, 2010, 11:54:23 PM
yes good call peter!   time for me to find a really big squeeze bottle.

Norma, going way back in the thread... No, I have never had mack and mancos pizza, but I have heard all about it for years from many of my friends.   To me its sort of like the Pepe's and Sally's of southern Jersey.  It seems that if you are from the area you know it and you crave it!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2010, 09:01:35 PM
Norma,

Curiosity got the better of me so I decided to conduct a couple of experiments to make a Mackís basic cheese pizza even though I have never had a Mackís pizza.

My first attempt was to see if I could make a robust Mackís clone dough for a 14Ē pizza using all-purpose flour. I have made robust all-purpose doughs before that handled like the doughs in the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc but not with any consistency. I managed to make a pizza with the dough but thought that the finished crust was only so-so from a flavor and texture standpoint and that it was perhaps unlikely that Mackís uses all-purpose flour.

My next effort was to make a dough using the King Arthur bread flour (KABF) as supplemented with Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (VWG) to achieve an effective protein content for the blend of 14.4%, which is a bit more than the 14.2% protein content of the King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour. To do the allocation, I used Novemberís Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. For this effort, I assumed that a Mackís pizza is an 18Ē pizza. So I decided to make a dough ball for that size. I elected to use a 21-ounce dough ball, which translates to a thickness factor of 0.082525. I will have more to say about the thickness factor later.

The dough formulation I decided to use is the following one, based on the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (58%):
IDY (0.22%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (164.72%):
370.47 g  |  13.07 oz | 0.82 lbs
214.87 g  |  7.58 oz | 0.47 lbs
0.82 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.27 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
7.41 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
11.11 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
5.56 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
610.23 g | 21.52 oz | 1.35 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: For a 21-ounce dough ball for a single 18Ē pizza (with a corresponding thickness factor of 0.082525); bowl residue compensation = 2.5%.
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 358.79 grams (12.66 ounces) KABF and 11.69 grams (0.41 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (about 3.9 teaspoons)

To prepare the dough, I used the basic methods and techniques as described in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html. I used this approach because I have found it to produce a more robust dough than I have made using other methods. For the Mackís application, I thought that getting a robust dough was essential if I were to endeavor to simulate the Mack dough handling methods. In keeping with this objective, I selected a hydration of 58% to achieve a dough that would be easy to handle and not be overly extensible. The yeast quantity, at 0.22%, was selected to allow a cold fermentation of about 2-3 days, but with a possibility of going out another day or so. I used some sugar in the dough in the event I decided to go beyond two days.

To make the dough, I started by sifting the KABF and the VWG. I then placed the formula water, at around 51.5 degrees F, into the mixer bowl of my basic KitchenAid stand mixer (with a C-hook). With the mixer at stir speed and with the whisk attached, I gradually added the KABF/VWG blend to the mixer bowl until the whisk started to labor and to groan, about 2 Ĺ minutes. I then switched to the flat beater attachment, and with the mixer still at stir speed, I gradually added the remaining KABF/VWG blend. Because of the relatively low hydration of the dough, at 58%, I found it necessary to intervene from time to time to manually help form the dough into a fairly cohesive mass, particularly when the flat beater attachment started to bog down. This part of the exercise took about 2 minutes. I then switched to the C-hook and, with the mixer at speed 2, I added the oil, salt and sugar to the mixer bowl. After these ingredients were mixed into the dough, I added the IDY. The dough was then kneaded for about 12 minutes. I had to again intervene in the process but the dough ultimately came together into a smooth, cohesive mass. I hand kneaded the final dough for about 30 seconds and shaped it into a round ball. The finished dough temperature was 77.2 degrees F. I oiled the dough ball lightly and placed two poppy seeds space apart by one inch at the center of the top of the dough ball. To simulate Mackís use of a sheet pan and ďbody bagĒ fermentation approach, I used a metal cookie tin and secured a sheet of plastic wrap over the cookie tin, using a rubber band for this purpose.

The dough remained in the refrigerator for almost 3 days. After 24 hours, the spacing of the poppy seeds suggested a roughly 42% rise. After 48 hours, the dough ball had almost doubled in volume. After about 67 hours, when I brought the dough out of the refrigerator to warm up at room temperature (about 76 degrees F), the dough ball had increased in volume by an additional 25%. The dough remained at room temperature for about 1 Ĺ hours. At this time, I shaped and stretched the dough ball into an 18Ē skin. I had no trouble doing this. The dough was a bit elastic and it wasnít as robust as the dough shown in the abovereferenced video, but I managed to open up the dough ball and to slap and stretch the dough to form the 18Ē skin. I was also able to toss the dough skin. There were some fermentation bubbles in the skin as I formed it but they were on the small side. The Mackís dough in the video does not have any visible fermentation bubbles that I could detect.

As you know, I cannot bake an 18Ē on my 14Ē x 16Ē pizza stone. So, as I have done many times before with an oversized skin, I used an 18Ē pizza screen in conjunction with the abovementioned pizza stone. The baking approach I decided to use was to start the bake of the pizza on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven and to shift it onto the pizza stone, which was placed on the topmost oven rack position. The oven was preheated for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. From time to time during the oven warm-up time, I turned on the broiler to apply more top heat to the pizza stone.

As the oven was getting ready for my pizza, I dressed the 18Ē skin on the screen. To get a better idea as to the amount of sauce and cheese to use, I watched the abovementioned video several times, watching every hand movement until I had them memorized. For the sauce, I used the Wal-Mart Great Value crushed tomatoes. Since the crushed tomatoes had small chunks, I found it necessary to use my stick blender to make the sauce as smooth as possible. This was important since I planned to use my small plastic squeeze bottle (shown in an earlier post) to dispense the sauce on the pizza and I did not want any of the chunks to clog the nozzle of the squeeze bottle. To the crushed tomatoes, I added dried oregano, garlic powder and sugar. This was not an attempt to simulate the Mackís sauce, which uses a different tomato product. It was just a simple sauce to use for the experiment. Based on my review of the video, I estimated that about 7 ounces of sauce is used for an 18Ē Mackís pizza. It could be more, but I would need more information on the nature of the sauce actually used by Mack's.

For the cheese, I used a blend of shredded extra sharp NY white cheddar cheese and shredded low-moisture part-skim mozzarella cheese. My best estimate of the total amount of cheese used for a Mackís 18Ē cheese pizza was about 8 ounces. I used mostly white cheddar cheese for the blend, maybe 90-95%. I used the mozzarella cheese just to soften the flavor of the extra sharp white cheddar cheese.

I dressed the pizza in the way shown in the video, starting with a first layer of the cheese blend (a large fistful), then the pizza sauce, which I dispensed in a circular spiral pattern using the squeeze bottle, and finally the second layer of the cheese blend (another large fistful). I would say that the two applications of the cheese blend were about the same. The only problem I experienced was that some of the sauce clogged the nozzle of the squeeze bottle and splattered onto the pizza below the nozzle. That is why it is important that the sauce be very smooth if a squeeze bottle is to be used. But, in the end, the dressed pizza looked to me to be very similar to what is shown in the video. Unfortunately, I didnít think to take a photo of the dressed pizza. The total unbaked pizza weight was 1023 grams, or about 36 ounces.

The dressed pizza was baked on the screen on the lowest oven rack position for about 5 minutes. I then moved the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the preheated pizza stone on the topmost oven rack position. The top heating coil kept coming on and off but the pizza did not seem to be harmed by that action. The pizza was perhaps at the topmost oven rack position for about 3 minutes. Were I to attempt another 18Ē Mackís clone pizza, I think I would use the method I usually use to make oversized pizzas and start the pizza on the 18Ē screen at a top oven rack position and shift it onto the pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position. The method I used, while ultimately successful, did not strike me as being the most reliable one to use.

The photos below show the finished pizza. I thought that the pizza was excellent. The pizza looked like a NY style pizza but the crust was almost cracker-like in part, especially at the rim and the crust near the rim. The crust was also generally crispy and chewy, and there were a few large bubbles in the rim and a fair amount of blistering. The slices started out a bit on the limp side but stiffened as they cooled. When the pizza came out of the oven, oil from the slices dripped onto my paper plate. The cheddar cheese flavor was dominant, but quite enjoyable.

In terms of possible changes, I think I would use less dough next time. The dough I made seemed to be more than what I saw in the video. I think I would use a thickness factor of around 0.072, or something like that, and adjust further if necessary for future experiments. A less sharp cheddar cheese might also be in order. In your case, you should use the pizza sauce that Steve picked out for you. However, there was nothing wrong with the sauce I used. It is a good, generic sauce that is useful for experiments like this one.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2010, 09:08:03 PM
And some slice pics...

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 29, 2010, 10:10:33 PM
Peter,

I want to thank you for also going along in experimenting with Mackís clone pizza. I am glad you are curious.  Your details or so helpful and even you describing the pie, make me want to try a slice.  I am so hungry for a slice of Mackís pie. 

I never tried to make an 18" pizza, so I donít know how good I would be at trying one.  It sounds like you now donít think they might be using all-purpose flour, since you didnít really like the taste of the crust.  When Steve and I tried the Mackís clone on Tuesday, I thought the crust had a good flavor, but then it had been cold fermented for 4 days. I think they must be using some kind of high-gluten flour, that is bromated, because thatís what most pizza shops use.  Most likely it would be All Trumps. 

Since I used about the same approach to making the dough as your second experiment, I can now see how that creates a robust dough.  It is interesting that you added sugar to your dough and also had a higher amount of oil.  Your other ingredients were a little different than mine.  I wonder how you can ever determine just what they might be using, when I donít believe we will ever know.  I also saw some small fermentation bubbles in the skin.  When I am trying to think about what they might be doing, I canít believe they would be going for any amount of cold ferment over 2 days, in my opinion.

I also believe the Wal-Mart Value crushed tomatoes were a good choice, because I have used them before and they tasted good.  The Gangi sauce almost had a bitter or sour taste, but after the pizza was baked, the sauce didnít taste bitter or sour.  I preferred the Full Red for my taste.

It is interesting you use almost all sharp-white cheddar, with some mozzarella and you found the taste was good.  I would have thought the taste of the sharp would have been too strong.  I try to imagine what they might be buying, because in my experience with the mild white cheddar it is about .55 to .60 cents more a pound.  I will have to ask my supplier how much the sharp white cheddar is.  I have to place an order for this Tuesday, so I will be able to find out that information. 

I am also happy you found the taste of the pie excellent.  :)  Did you ever use a blend with so much sharp white cheddar before?  Maybe you have tasted something I want to try again..like a Mackís pizza.  Your finished pie looks great. Did you like that greasy, gooey, dripping cheese from the pizza?

Thank you for going into all the details,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: DavePZ on April 30, 2010, 09:08:14 AM
Norma/Peter/Everyone else who is posting on this thread -

I am checking this post every day, waiting with baited breath for someone to crack the code!

One comment on the squeeze bottle. I have used a squeeze bottle in the past to apply sauce, and what I had to do to prevent clogging, was to cut the length of the tip down a little, which opens up the hole size, and prevents clogging. Just a thought.

Thanks!
DavePZ
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2010, 10:03:43 AM
Norma/Peter/Everyone else who is posting on this thread -

I am checking this post every day, waiting with baited breath for someone to crack the code!

One comment on the squeeze bottle. I have used a squeeze bottle in the past to apply sauce, and what I had to do to prevent clogging, was to cut the length of the tip down a little, which opens up the hole size, and prevents clogging. Just a thought.

Thanks!
DavePZ

DavePZ,

Thanks for the added tip.  :) Your thought is good. 

I also would like to be able to crack this, but only time will tell, if we will be successful or not.  With everyone that is helping maybe there is a possibility that we can do this.

Stay tuned,  :pizza:

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2010, 10:43:26 AM
Norma,

It will always be difficult to reverse engineer a pizza without good information, like insider information, dumpster diving information, ingredients lists and Nutrition Facts, and you are unlikely to get ingredients lists or Nutrition Facts from a small outfit like Mack's (or its sister pizzerias) because there is no legal requirement or pressure for them to disclose that type of information. Even then, a dough formulation can tolerate fairly wide variations without materially altering the finished product. I found this true with the Papa John's clones that I played around with. In my Mack's experiment I just tried to get the proper "look and feel" (dough weight, pizza size, thickness factor, amounts and placements of sauce, cheese, fermentation window, etc.). If I can get that right, then I can look at specific ingredients, like flour type, tomatoes and cheeses, and try to fit them into the overall look and feel. I also tried to use the bake temperature that Mack's uses and to try to figure out how best to use my oven and stone and pizza screen to simulate what Mack's does with its oven. When I looked at the video you originally referenced, it appeared that the temperature of the RotoFlex oven was around 500 degrees F. I couldn't exactly make out the digits in the oven display because of the resolution of the display but it looked like the first digit was a 5. Other members have also confirmed a temperature of around 500 degrees F, or something close to it. That value also comports with the value that a RotoFlex sales rep gave me in a conversation about their ovens.

With respect to the cheeses, the extra sharp NY white cheddar cheese did indeed have a very pronounced flavor but it was also one that I liked based on having used that cheese before with the Papa Gino's clone pizzas that I made. I could have used more mozzarella cheese to soften the flavor of the cheddar cheese but for this experiment I was trying to replicate the greasy/oily character of the cheese and to maximize the drip factor. As it was, there wasn't as much dripping as I saw in the other video you referenced at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1VqTOgJKM0&NR=1 (featuring the family with young children). It may be that a cheddar cheese with more fat is required or possibly more cheese may be needed. When I looked at the family Mack's video again, the cheese seemed to glisten with fat, so maybe more cheese is used at Mack's that what I used. That's the problem when you free-throw cheese. You can get many different results. It also occurred to me that maybe Mack's is using oil in its sauce. That might help with the lubrication of the sauce to get it to flow more easily and smoothly through the hose. If the oil in the sauce commingles on the baked pizza with the fat from the cheeses, it becomes hard to distinguish the oil from the cheese fat.

I will perhaps look for other white cheddar cheeses to play around with. Unfortunately, where I live it is hard to find wide selections of white cheddar cheese. They are mostly of the gourmet variety and in small sticks, and quite expensive for the amount you get. I could get more selection by mail order but I try as much as possible to use ingredients that are locally available. If someone correctly identifies the cheese used at Mack's and it is one that I could order somewhere, I might make an exception in that case, or else look for it during my travels north from time to time.

Overall, it was fun making the pizza. I also like to make 18" pizzas once in a while to keep my skills working with that size from getting too rusty. I am also sure that I will enjoy reheating the leftover slices.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 30, 2010, 10:48:59 AM
Pete--Thanks

I will continue my espionage and try to spot more ingredient types nad brands!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2010, 11:47:38 AM
Peter,

I also agree it is going to be harder to reverse-engineer Mackís pizza, without having insider information or name brands.  If I get to one or both of Mackís places in Wildwood, I am going to try to do dumpster diving if my daughter doesnít get to perturbed with me.  She already thinks I am a pizza geek, but tolerates me. Maybe ERASMOís espionage will also give us all some more valuable information.  Since he goes to Wildwood more than I can, he has more chances to watch what they are doing.

I am going to try another Mackís clone at market on Tuesday if the market isnít too busy.  This coming week is their 85 th anniversary and usually every year anniversary week is really busy, because there are many sales by stand holders and also stand holders give certificates for drawings for the customers, but there probably could be some time in the afternoon to give it a try again.  The mild cheddar I did use did have a lot of oiling and dripping.  I might buy some kind of sharper cheddar to add to see what happens.

With regard to oven temperature, right now I am keeping my oven temperature at market around 525 degrees F.  I could measure the temperature in my top oven which doesnít get as hot.  Maybe that is another possibility.

Let us all know how you enjoyed the reheated slice.  I still have a slice left from Tuesday and am going to try that tonight, to see if I can now detect more cheddar flavor.

Thanks for going over all this information, again,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2010, 02:56:51 PM
Norma,

When I was out doing errands today, I stopped by two supermarkets near me where I shop and I checked out all of their white cheddar cheese offerings. One of the stores had eight brands, including one for shredded white cheddar. Most of the brands were 8 ounces and priced from $3.49 (on sale) to $9.99 (for the half pound). Most of the cheeses contained 9 grams of total fat per one-ounce serving, but there were two brands with 10 grams of fat per one-ounce serving and one with 11 grams of fat for a one-ounce serving. I found about half of the brands in the specialty cheese section of the store. The others were in the regular cheese section. This store caters to a high-end demographic, which accounts for the specialty cheese section and the broad selection.

The second store, which caters to a low-end demographic, had no white cheddar cheeses at all.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 30, 2010, 07:52:21 PM
Peter,

Thank you for checking out the kinds of cheddar cheese the stores near you carry or didnít carry.. Whew some of those white cheddar cheeses were expensive. It is interesting to hear all the different fats in the white cheddar cheeses. Were any of these sharp white cheddar?  I will also have to check what kinds of white cheddar the stores near me carry and what the differences are in prices.  I never bought any white cheddar from our local grocery store.  I only used the white mild cheddar in my blend at market. 

I cut part of one slice of the clone Mackís pie, and also took a part of the crust off.  It didnít make any difference in the taste of the cheddar being reheated, again.  The taste still stayed the same as Tuesday. Now to figure out what to maybe try on Tuesday.  The cheese still oiled off, after it was reheated.  I didnít remember that when trying to reheat a real Mackís pizza.  Maybe someone that has reheated a real Mackís pizza, will be able to say whether the cheese oils off when reheated.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2010, 08:46:26 PM
Norma,

I mentioned the different white cheddar cheeses mainly to demonstrate that there are some brands that have more fat than others. The cheeses with the higher fat values were the ones that were aged--about a couple years or so of aging. A few of the cheeses were sharp cheeses but there were some that were also mild. I am not sure how much fattier you can get with the white cheddar cheeses. As I suggested before, maybe Mack's is using oil in their sauce and that is showing up on the baked pizzas. 

The other thing that interested me is the amount of cheese that Mack's uses on their pizzas. From the original video you referenced it does not seem that Mack's is using a lot of cheese. Normally, an 18" pizza with mozzarella cheese contains a fair amount of that cheese. Maybe the intensity of the flavor of the white cheddar cheese means that they can get away with far less of the cheese. I think my next experiment will use a thinner crust and more cheese, mainly to see if I can get the "drip factor" up.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2010, 04:32:27 PM
I went to a privately owned grocery store near me today, because they had steamed medium shrimp on sale for 5.99 a pound.  That is about the only place I will buy steamed shrimp where we live. While I was there I looked at the different kinds of X-Sharp White Cheddar.  I decided on this X-Sharp Cheddar because it also was on sale.  The weight of the X-Sharp White Cheddar was 0.46 lb.  I am going to hand grate this cheddar and mix with the mild white cheddar I have at market, to see if this blend might be closer to what Mackís is using.  The price of this piece of X-Sharp Cheddar was 3.22. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: widespreadpizza on May 01, 2010, 05:38:28 PM
Thats good cheese you found there Norma,  make sure you try that stuff before cooking,  its great. That will certainly flavor up that pie. -marc
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 01, 2010, 05:42:20 PM
Thats good cheese you found there Norma,  make sure you try that stuff before cooking,  its great. That will certainly flavor up that pie. -marc

widespreadpizza.

I never tried this brand of cheese before, but appreciate you telling me to try the cheese before I use it to make the Mack's pizza.  I will make sure to try it.  I am hoping this will flavor up the pie.

Thanks for your advise,  ;)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 12:13:33 AM
A few more pictures of Mack's pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 12:25:24 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 12:26:25 AM
One more, I had trouble resizing these pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 06:43:21 AM
A few pictures of Mack and Mancos Pizza to compare with Mack's Pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 06:50:39 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 07:03:36 AM
When I looked at the Earth Cam for Wildwood this morning it was 73 degrees F.  A perfect day at the shore.  Wish I was there.  ;D .....and eating Mack's pizza.  :pizza:

http://www.earthcam.com/usa/newjersey/wildwood/   

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96292.html#msg96292
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 10:29:55 AM
Norma,

Thanks for finding the recent photos. They give me a better idea as to the target to shoot for. The dark red color of the sauce seems to suggest a tomato paste-based product. I don't think that I have any basic non-paste tomato product with a color as dark as shown in the photos.

I would still like to shoot for an 18" pizza in my home oven. I need to give some thought as to the best way to accomplish that to get the desired results. The last method broke down the cheeses too much because I couldn't properly control the top heat. I might also pick up some mild white cheddar cheese to mix with the extra sharp cheddar since that shouldn't affect the total fat that much. I think I might also try adding some vegetable or olive oil to the sauce.

I have been reheating the leftover slices from my last Mack clone pizza. They have been good but thus far I prefer the freshly baked slices.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 11:05:24 AM
Peter,

I think you are right about the tomato-paste product because that is what Gangi is.  I prefer the Full Red, but since I want to try and make this pie as authentic as I can, I will use the paste Gangi.  The Gangi reminds me of the regular WalMart tomato paste, when I tasted it.  The Gangi has added basil, but I really couldnít taste the basil in it.  To my palate the sauce has a little bitter or sour taste, although in the final pizza the sauce isnít sour or bitter.  Maybe Steve will also comment on this. 

Whew..shooting for a  18" pizza.  You are daring trying that in your home overn. At this point, I donít want to try that.  Maybe if I can get the taste of the cheeses right, then I might also try a 18" pizza. 

I am going to mix the X-Sharp Cheddar I bought yesterday with some of the State Brand, mild white cheddar to see what happens.  I looked though my product catalog from Hometown Provisions, Inc. and they have so many kinds of cheddar.  I am not sure until I talk with them, which ones are white.  They will usually break down a case and just sell you a 5lb. loaf, so if this X-Sharp Cheddar doesnít work, I might consider buying a 5 lb. loaf or just try the X-Sharp Cheddar. 

When I looked at the pictures I posted above, it looks like the hose that applies the sauce, is bigger than I remember.

Even I donít ever remember Mackís pizza tasting the same when it was warmed up.  We usually rented an efficiency at the shore and I had tried reheating in the oven and also the microwave.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 11:13:43 AM
Norma,

I called Mack's this morning and spoke to the gal who answered the phone about their pizzas. I was told that the pizzas come in one size only, 18". Also, there is no mozzarella cheese used, only a white cheddar cheese. When I mentioned that I had heard that their pizzas were on the greasy/oily side, she said that was from the fat in the cheese. There is no oil used in the sauce. When I asked if the cheddar was mild or strong tasting, she said she would describe it as being on the mild side. Of course, that is a subjective characterization. She could not tell me what kind of flour they use.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 11:18:25 AM
Norma,

I called Mack's this morning and spoke to the gal who answered the phone about their pizzas. I was told that the pizzas come in one size only, 18". Also, there is no mozzarella cheese used, only a white cheddar cheese. When I mentioned that I had heard that their pizzas were on the greasy/oily side, she said that was from the fat in the cheese. There is no oil used in the sauce. When I asked if the cheddar was mild or strong tasting, she said she would describe it as being on the mild side. Of course, that is a subjective characterization. She could not tell me what kind of flour they use.

Peter

Peter,

LOL..you are quite the investigator.   8)  I couldn't imagine that she would give that information over the phone.  Since she now said that the oily/greasy is from the cheese, there is no need to try oil in the sauce.

I think we just have to get the cheese right and experiment more.

Thanks for calling,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 02:04:41 PM
Norma,

I have learned that you just can't call someone and expect them to spill their guts. You have to plan your strategy, rehearse it in advance in your mind, and then tailor it to the person you are likely to be speaking with. It will be different if you are talking to an expert, where it helps to have a good command of the jargon, rather than just an ordinary worker for whom a job is just a job. To give you an idea, this morning, when I called Mack's, I said to the gal who answered the phone that I lived in Texas and might at some point want to try their pizza on a future visit north but wanted to know more about their pizzas. After we got the pizza size issue out of the way, which was a softball question for which I believed I already knew the answer (which she confirmed), I mentioned that I had a lactose intolerance to mozzarella cheese. I don't know if she knew what lactose intolerance is but that compelled her to tell me that they didn't use mozzarella cheese, only white cheddar cheese. That opened up a discussion of the type of cheddar cheese (i.e., mild versus sharp). When I "attacked" their pizza as being overly greasy/oily based on what I had heard, that put her on the defensive and prompted her to explain that the fat was from the cheese and was quite normal. When I speculated that it might be oil used in the sauce, she said that they did not use any oil in the sauce. Although I asked about the type of flour, hoping I would get really lucky, I knew from past experience that workers rarely know the answer to that type of question.

BTW, I called Mack's before they would get very busy and either wouldn't answer the phone or cut the conversation short.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 02, 2010, 03:18:17 PM
Of course I had to go to macks this weekend to continue research.  I did notice the rotoflex oven did not appear to be fitted with stones.  Also they were very busy and the oven was fluctuating between 550 and 575.  They had three guys stretching dough and I saw one guy that was putting two dough balls together, stretching them together and then separating them into two skins.  Other than that no great progress. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 03:41:08 PM
I did notice the rotoflex oven did not appear to be fitted with stones.  Also they were very busy and the oven was fluctuating between 550 and 575.

ERASMO,

It's possible that the higher oven temperature was to be sure that there was sufficient heat retention in the face of the high volume of pizzas. Otherwise, the workers might be trying to bake new pizzas on cool spots in the oven where other (finished) pizzas were vacated.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 03:52:36 PM
Peter,

You sure do have your spiel down pat.  >:D That poor gal must not have even known what lactose intolerance was.  Good one for you.  What would you have said if she knew what lactose intolerance was?  What would your next line have been? 

I guess I will have to practice what I am going to say and make a strategy, if I get to Mackís.

Good thinking also, on calling earlier.  Mackís does get busy and with such a nice weekend, I am sure they were busy as ERASMO reported.

Norma

ERASMO,

I would have like to see the guy that stretched two dough balls together.  He sure must have been talented.  Thanks for your continued research.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 04:27:22 PM
You sure do have your spiel down pat.  >:D That poor gal must not have even known what lactose intolerance was.  Good one for you.  What would you have said if she knew what lactose intolerance was?  What would your next line have been? 

Norma,

It did occur to me that she might not know what lactose intolerance is, since a lot of people do not know, but I was prepared to say that it doesn't apply to all cheeses (which happens to be true). That might have prompted her to tell me what kind of cheese they use. Since we already knew from a variety of sources that they used cheddar cheese, what I was hoping to find out is whether it was blended with mozzarella cheese or used only by itself. As it turns out, scott r was right when he said that his source said only cheddar cheese. We just ruled a few things out, not in. At least we won't waste time playing around with cheese blends and oil in the sauce.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 02, 2010, 05:16:44 PM
I saw one guy that was putting two dough balls together, stretching them together and then separating them into two skins.  

ERASMO,

I think I would have paid money to see that. Can you tell us how the skin made from two dough balls was separated into two other skins? I have read about some pizza operators combining two small dough balls to make a larger pizza. I believe that one of the dough balls is pressed, but not kneaded, into the other dough ball. But I have never heard of making one skin and dividing it into two.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 02, 2010, 05:22:59 PM
What he did was take one dough ball which seemed to be lightly oiled, put it in the bowl of flour and floured on top and bottom.  He then took a second dough ball floured it the same and placed it on top of the first ball on the wooden counter.  He then proceeded to flatten and stretch both skins at the same time.  When they were stretched out he then pulled them apart and finished the final stretching to the 18" mark.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Glutenboy on May 02, 2010, 05:47:55 PM
Is this technique used to impact some quality of the skin or just a timesaver?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: RoadPizza on May 02, 2010, 07:43:00 PM
Is this technique used to impact some quality of the skin or just a timesaver?
I can't see it as anything but a timesaver.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: widespreadpizza on May 02, 2010, 08:16:39 PM
ERASMO, if I say I can't believe it,  can I at least see it?  That would be sweet.  There is nothing better than hearing about something you've never considered in the realm of pizza,  like stretching two doughs at once or using baking powder in long cold fermented NYC style pizza dough......  -marc
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 02, 2010, 08:34:54 PM
ERASMO, if I say I can't believe it,  can I at least see it?  That would be sweet. 

ERASMO,

I agree with widespreadpizza and Peter.  :o I also would like to see that if I could.  Which Mack's did you see that?  Was it the Mack's at the end of the boardwalk near Wildwood Crest or the one near the center of the Boardwalk, near Douglas's Fudge?

If the stars are right I think I am going to Wildwood next week or the following week.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 09:26:53 AM
Peter,

I talked to one of the owners of Hometown Provisions, Inc. this morning about Mackís pizza and if he every heard of anyone ever using all cheddar for a pizza.  He wasnít familiar with Mackís or Mack and Manco's Pizza, but said he knew Papa Ginoís used to used a special blend made for them of mostly cheddar with some swiss ends. He said they now have discontinued this, but he thought they still used some cheddar in their blend. I told him we knew that Mackís uses all cheddar, but werenít too sure what kind of cheddar they used.  He then said if you use all cheddar you will have a very greasy pizza.  I said I already knew that. He said they probably wouldnít be using sharp cheddar.  I asked him what did he think they might be using.  His guess was probably medium cheddar.  I asked him about the brands they carry and he recommended State Brand mild white cheddar.  The State Brand is 2.50 a lb for a 5 lb. loaf. He also thought if using the sharp white cheddar, the cheese would break down too much in the oven. Since the State Brand seems to be a popular brand, hopefully this is what we are looking for to make a pizza like Mackís.  :) I ordered a 5 lb. loaf.

Norma 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 03, 2010, 09:36:08 AM
Norma
It was the Macks closer to the center of town at the end of Wildwood Ave.  Since we were told about the all cheddar the wife and I really tried to tune in on the cheese flavor and we suspect a mild cheddar.  It did not have the bite of a sharp.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 09:41:55 AM
Norma
It was the Macks closer to the center of town at the end of Wildwood Ave.  Since we were told about the all cheddar the wife and I really tried to tune in on the cheese flavor and we suspect a mild cheddar.  It did not have the bite of a sharp.


ERASMO,

Thanks for telling me where you had the Mack's pizza.  That is one near Douglas's fudge.  That is also something I am hungry for.  Great job on tuning in on the cheese flavor.  I tried all white mild cheddar last week and in my opinion, it wasn't the taste of Mack's.  I used the State Brand.  I think, but don't know, since talking to my distributor, that they might be using a medium white cheddar.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 03, 2010, 12:18:41 PM
norma, I mentioned already, but we definitely know the cheddar is from wisconsin thanks to my friend.   Also, where I live (the home of papa gino's and greek pizza) mild white cheddar is the most popular cheese put on pizza.   The most popular brand used around here is the same brand that you use (although you use their mozzarella),  its called 1950-127 brand and it is from Wisconsin.    I think you should contact the manufacturer (foremost farms) and tell them that you own a pizzera and you already use their mozzarella.   Ask them if you can get some samples of their mild white cheddar.   I have always been able to procure free samples any time I call a manufacturer and give them the name and address of the pizzeria I am consulting for.   Good luck!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 01:15:37 PM
scott r,

I appreciate your feedback and since you know what Papa Ginoís uses, it still makes me wonder if that is the brand of mild cheddar cheese Mackís uses.  :-\ When I used the mild white cheddar cheese from State Brand last week, it didnít seem strong enough in the taste, in remembering how Mackís pizza tasted.  Thanks for the tip on calling Foremost Farms and I call them this week.

My distributor delivers Tuesday at market, but I needed extra cheese this week, because I used more last week than I thought I would.  They donít usually deliver until the late afternoon, and I donít want to use the Pelican Head grater during the day on Tuesday.  It is too much to clean up and can get in the way of the cash register.  I went to my distributor today to pick up the cheese I need and had ordered State Brand, I thought was going to be medium cheddar. When I got there, they gave me sharp cheddar. They then told me they didn't carry the medium white cheddar. I am going to try the sharp white cheddar tomorrow.  At least I will be able to see if itís too strong.

Thanks for your help,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 06:01:19 PM
I tasted the State brand of sharp white cheddar and also the State brand of mild white cheddar, today.  I can't say there is a big difference in the taste.  I will see after the pie is baked, if I can then notice a difference.  Both have 9 grams of fat.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 03, 2010, 06:36:17 PM
Norma,

You might try using one of the cheeses on one half of the pizza, and the other cheese on the other half. Or you might use a blend of the two cheeses on one half, and something else on the other half. Of course, you would have to remember or mark the pizza in some way as to tell you what went on each half.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 03, 2010, 07:03:31 PM
Peter,

Trying both kinds of cheddar or some in a blend would be a good idea.  Iíll think of something to come up with to mark the pizza. I just tasted the X-Sharp Yanceyís Fancy white cheddar and it is a lot stronger that the State Brand sharp white cheddar.  I tried both the State Brand white mild cheddar and the State Brand white sharp cheddar, both when cold and then when it was pliable and warm.  In my opinion, there isnít that much difference. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 04, 2010, 12:05:10 AM
looks like you have lots of choices and some investigating to do.   This is one of my favorite things about the hobby we share.   I have a feeling when you are all done with this you are going to have a macs pizza and feel like yours is better!

Also, I didn't mean to say papa gino's is using 1950 brand cheese, just that most of the places around here are.    The Papa has its own cheese plant!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2010, 06:23:41 AM
scott r,

I do have lots of choices for today, and with you help of telling me to call Foremost Farms, I might even have more.   ;D

I also like this investigating part, and like you really enjoy this hobby.  Of course, then we get to taste the final product. 

I have found in the last year, that what I thought was my favorite pizza place, now I canít say that.  I look forward to trying new types of pizzas to see what they are like.  It is never ending. LOL

My husbands favorite food was pizza and he would eat any kind, whether frozen or from any Pizzeria.  His favorite pizza was Mackís and he always looked forward to going to the shore and having their pizza.  He also always talked about Mackís, in comparison to our pizzerias around our area.  He could eat pizza everyday of the week, even though I cooked many other kinds of food.  We were also an investigating team.  He was the Caramel Popcorn King around our area.  That is what many people called him.  His parents came from the coal region to our area.  He always said his parents should have settled in Ocean City, NJ, because that is where Johnsonís Popcorn is, they are also like Mack and Mancos, being very famous for their product at the shore.  We watched Johnsonís make their caramel popcorn and stir theirs by hand like we did in the big copper kettles.  We also talked about how our product was more consistent than Johnsonís.  We had visited Ocean City, NJ too, but never tried Mack and Mancos.  I didnít even know they were almost the same as Mackís at the time.

When we are finished investigating Mackís pizza, then we should know if we like ours better or not. 

I also wondered about Papa Ginoís cheese, when my distributor said they had a special blend for them.

Thanks for you help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2010, 10:10:37 PM
Steve and I made the Mackís clone pie today.  We used a plastic ketchup bottle to simulate the hose and cut off part of the tip.  Steve dressed the pie and put it into the oven.  Both of us were anxious to taste it.  I had Steve taste the mild white cheddar, sharp white cheddar and also the X-sharp white cheddar. He also couldnít distinguish much difference in the sharp white cheddar. Half the pie was dressed with sharp white cheddar and half was dressed with a blend of sharp white cheddar and X-sharp cheddar. 

When the pie was finished baking it sure smelled like a Mackís pie.  I told Steve this is what it always smells like outside and inside Mackís Pizza.  The pie dressed with the State Brand sharp white cheddar did taste like a Mackís pizza.  ;D  It also had the runny, gooey cheese.  Steve said he also enjoyed the taste of the cheese.  We both couldnít believe the this pie would only be made with white cheddar.  It really looked like mozzarella cheese after the pie was baked.

Steve took a video of me trying to throw the pie, but I am not going to post it.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: RoadPizza on May 04, 2010, 10:20:06 PM

Steve took a video of me trying to throw the pie, but I am not going to post it.

Norma

Congrats on finally getting it the way you want it!

I'd still love to see the video of you throwing the dough in the air. >:D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2010, 10:27:56 PM
Congrats on finally getting it the way you want it!

I'd still love to see the video of you throwing the dough in the air. >:D

RoadPizza,

Thanks for the congrats!  :)

The Mack's clone we tried to make today did taste like Mack's pizza, but I need to really taste Mack's pizza again to make sure my taste buds aren't fooling me.  I also am not sure exactly how much cheese or sauce they use in their pies.  Steve and I did weigh the ingredients, but I have to look tomorrow, where the paper is. 

Steve took the video, but I sure don't want to post my face, again.  :-D  He tried to just take the dough flying.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 04, 2010, 10:39:06 PM
Ah c'mon, Norma. I double dog dare ya!  >:D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 04, 2010, 10:40:38 PM
Norma and Steve,

You guys did a very nice job. Norma, you didn't comment on the cheddar cheese blend that you used on the other half of the pizza. Is it just that you felt that the sharp cheddar alone came close to the Mack's pizza?

Did the crust characteristics emulate the crust characteristics of a Mack's pizza as you remembered it?

I'd also like to see the amounts of cheese and sauce you used. I assume that you made a 16" pizza. Is that correct?

Does your latest effort represent the end of your reverse engineering effort? Will you try an 18" version?

It looks like the squeeze bottle method worked, too. Did you have any problems with that method?

I, too, will be interested in how your latest effort compares with the real deal when you next visit Mack's.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2010, 10:58:56 PM
Steve,

I told you only to take a video of the dough flying..LOL Also. I really can throw it like the pie men at Mackís.  I throw vertically.

Norma

Peter,

The blend of sharp white cheddar and the X-sharp cheddar didnít taste like Mackís pizza in my opinion.  Steve can also comment on this.  I felt the sharp cheddar had the same taste and smell as Mackís pizza.  Poor Steve, I kept making him smell it.  :-D

Steve did a great job of dressing the pie.  Your idea of the squeeze bottle was great.  ;D We didnít have any problems with the squeeze bottle.

The crust did remind me of Mackís but I will have to do more experimenting on that.  The dough did open nicely and you could really throw the dough.  The dough ball was supposed to be for a 16" pie, but we stretched it to a 18" pie.  We measured that. 

I will look where I put the papers for the list of the weighs of ingredients tomorrow.

This is not the end of trying to reverse engineer the Mackís pizza.  I also want to try another next week to see if we can obtain the same results. 

Maybe I will be able to visit Mackís this weekend.  It all depends on the weather.  I am also anxious to try multiple pies and see what I then think.

Steve can also comment on how he thought the pie tasted and how the dough behaved.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 04, 2010, 11:31:00 PM
A few more pictures of the baked pie with the sharp cheddar and two different blends Also, Steve's slice with grease on his plate. 

Third picture down is the blended cheese.

Steve and I used a skewer for the side of the pizza with the blend of X-sharp and sharp, so we could then know which side just had the sharp cheddar.

I have one slice to try tomorrow and Steve also has a slice to try.  I will take a picture of the reheated slice and also the bottom of the pie.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 12:59:24 AM

I'd still love to see the video of you throwing the dough in the air. >:D

Ah c'mon, Norma. I double dog dare ya!  >:D


Since RoadPizza and Steve wanted me to post this video..I am crazy enough to post it, all for the sake of pizza making, just to show how robust this Mackís dough is. Although I canít really throw the dough like Mackís pie men, this will give anyone an idea of how this dough performs.  I stepped outside my pizza stand, because I have a raised floor and if I tried to do this inside my stand the dough would hit the overhead light.  I wanted to try and throw this dough at the highest height I could get it.

This video is sideways because that is the way Steve took it.  I donít know how to straighten it out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XWl5GSI58k 

I would really need a lot of practice to throw this dough better.

Okay RoadPizza and Steve...this one is for both of you..LOL

Norma  >:D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: RoadPizza on May 05, 2010, 03:40:53 AM
Not bad, Norma.  You put on quite a show! :pizza:

I wouldn't throw it THAT high, though, unless the dough was incredibly resilient.  I actually ordered some ThrowDough (6 pcs.), so our pizza makers could start learning some acrobatic moves.  They should arrive sometime next week.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Matthew on May 05, 2010, 06:05:32 AM
Steve and I made the Mackís clone pie today.  We used a plastic ketchup bottle to simulate the hose and cut off part of the tip.  Steve dressed the pie and put it into the oven.  Both of us were anxious to taste it.  I had Steve taste the mild white cheddar, sharp white cheddar and also the X-sharp white cheddar. He also couldnít distinguish much difference in the sharp white cheddar. Half the pie was dressed with sharp white cheddar and half was dressed with a blend of sharp white cheddar and X-sharp cheddar. 

When the pie was finished baking it sure smelled like a Mackís pie.  I told Steve this is what it always smells like outside and inside Mackís Pizza.  The pie dressed with the State Brand sharp white cheddar did taste like a Mackís pizza.  ;D  It also had the runny, gooey cheese.  Steve said he also enjoyed the taste of the cheese.  We both couldnít believe the this pie would only be made with white cheddar.  It really looked like mozzarella cheese after the pie was baked.

Steve took a video of me trying to throw the pie, but I am not going to post it.

Norma

After all this work, you finally did it!  Congratulations & good for you for being so determined.

Matt
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 06:39:28 AM

I wouldn't throw it THAT high, though, unless the dough was incredibly resilient. 

RoadPizza,

The only reason Steve and I took this video was to show how resilient the dough was.  Since I was trying to make a dough and crust something like Mack's, it had to be able to be thrown.

Best of luck to you and your pizza makers in learning with the Throw Dough.  ;D

After all this work, you finally did it!  Congratulations & good for you for being so determined.

Matt

Matt,

I really don't know as of this date, if I really made a Mack's pizza, but it sure tasted like it to me.  I am always determined.  It is my nature.  Thanks for the congrats.

Norma

Steve and I weighed out 9 oz. of State Brand of sharp white cheddar for half of the pizza and 9 oz. of the blend of X-sharp white cheddar and State Brand of sharp white cheddar for the other half of the pizza.  Also we weighed out 14 1/2 oz. of Gangi sauce.  We didn't use all the Gangi sauce from the plastic squeeze bottle.  I didn't write down the exact ingredients we used with the Gangi sauce, but I think there were 2 teaspoons of sugar added to a larger amount of sauce than we used.  I will have to remember to write down the amount next week.  When you are trying to wait on customers or doing other things, you sometimes can forget to write down what you used.  If Steve can remember, he can also comment.  We also tasted the Gangi sauce before Steve added the other ingredients of sugar and garlic powder.  It still tasted sour or bitter in my opinion.

The sharp white cheddar had a very buttery flavor in the finished pie. In my opinion it tasted like someone had added straight butter to the final pie. I guess it was from the amount of fat in the sharp white cheddar.

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 01:08:53 PM
A frozen dough ball was used to make the Mack's clone pizza, yesterday.  I froze the dough ball last week.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 06:16:14 PM
The first two pictures are of a cold slice of the Mackís clone, top and bottom.

I reheated the slice of the Mackís clone pizza we made yesterday. The oven was heated for one hour. The slice was reheated on the baking stone to try and simulate reheating a slice at Mackís.  The cheese did remelt nicely as can be seen on the pictures below.  The slice was still gooey and greasy.

The rim on this slice reminds me of about how flat a rim is on the Mackís pizza.

My daughter tasted a piece of the reheated slice and although she canít remember what Mackís pizza tastes like, she commented on how she thought this Mackís clone did taste like Papa Dinoís Pizza.  Papa Dinoís is a place around our area that used to make very good pizza.  I had always wondered how they also made their pizza with the unique taste.  If I get to the shore, then she will also be able to let me know if she also thinks this pizza tastes like Mackís.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 06:17:15 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Kemosa on May 05, 2010, 07:23:32 PM
Norma,

Your pies look awesome & just like those of M & M.  I do hope you post your final recipe (flour, sauce, cheese) once  you feel you have it as close as you can get it.  My niece who lives in S. Jersey loves Mack/Manco and I would love to be able to make a pie for her that's close to theirs.  Nice job, and thanks for your effort in showing us the way. 

Are you thinking of offering at the farmer's market in addition to your regular pie?  Maybe call it shore pizza !
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 08:41:24 PM
Norma,

Your pies look awesome & just like those of M & M.  I do hope you post your final recipe (flour, sauce, cheese) once  you feel you have it as close as you can get it.  My niece who lives in S. Jersey loves Mack/Manco and I would love to be able to make a pie for her that's close to theirs.  Nice job, and thanks for your effort in showing us the way. 

Are you thinking of offering at the farmer's market in addition to your regular pie?  Maybe call it shore pizza !

Kemosa,

Thanks for saying the pies look awesome and just like Mack and Mancos.  :) I will post the final recipe for everything, once we can decide if this is as close as we can get the taste to Mackís or Mack and Mancos.  After the pie is tested more at market, then hopefully it can be created at home, also.  Since Peter is also going along to experiment with this pie, his methods to mix, ingredients, weighs of sauce and cheese to apply and baking the pie at home will really be helpful.

I would also like other people that want to create this kind of pie at home to be able to taste something like their pies.  I think right now the biggest problem will be the kind of white cheddar cheese that someone can buy at their own grocery store.  I have access to different brands of cheese that many members canít get or that are hard to purchase. I want to try and get some white cheddar from Foremost Farms.  I looked at their website and by what I can see, they only have one kind of white cheddar of the 1950-127.  I did call them today and they transferred me to someone, but all I got was a voice mail.  I will continue to work on this.  Maybe somehow I can compare the cheddar from Foremost Farms to the State Brand I just tried, in terms of fat and taste. Then it will go along the lines of something I can find at the grocery store that tastes about the same.  So far in my opinion, the sharp white cheddar from State Brand had the taste I remember, even though it was sharp white cheddar.

At this point, I donít know if I will offer it at market or not.  When Steve and I had it sitting on the counter yesterday a couple of people ask about it.  When we told them it was an experimental pie, made with all cheddar, they didnít even want to try it.  If someone had told me before that Mackís or Mack and Mancos was made with all cheddar, I wouldnít have believed them.

Hopefully we will get this right at some point,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 05, 2010, 09:10:36 PM
This is what I hope will be my journey soon.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCPicdzFWOw

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 09:38:58 AM
I talked to a sales rep at Foremost Farms this morning about their white cheddar cheese, that I thought they carried.  What I found out was they only carry 40 lb. blocks of the white cheddar cheese and there is only one kind. They donít carry 5lb. loaves, like they do for the low moisture part-skim mozzarella, I now use in my blend.  I told the sales rep what I was trying to recreate and she suggested a blend of 70/30 mozzarella, provolone they do carry.  I know this isnít going to work out, but she is going to send me a 5 lb. bag of this cheese to try.  Since I have talked with Foremost Farms, I donít know if this kind of white cheddar is what Mackís is using or if they might purchase it in 40 lb. blocks.

I wonder how I can find out what kind of distributors for cheeses there are near Wildwood, NJ. I know my distributor carries many kind of products relating to making pizza, so I am sure there are also other distributors near Wildwood, that also supply the pizza businesses at the shore their products, also. I could call them and say I might be opening a pizza business near there and try to find out what kind of cheese Mackís might be using.  I might be able to tell them I want to use an all white cheddar and see what they carry.  Any ideas?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 10:18:23 AM
Norma,

Some time ago, while I was looking for distributors in a particular state, I came across a PMQ feature at http://www.pmq.com/distributors/. That might be a good place for you to start. You may have to do a little research to see which distributors are nearest to Mack's. There is also a Vendor Directory at http://www.thepizzapages.com/pp/ and also at the Pizza Today website at http://www.pizzatoday.com/VendorDirectory/tabid/88/Default.aspx although I don't know how useful they will be for your purposes.

A point to keep in mind is that small businesses, which I think would include Mack's and Mack and Manko Pizza also, typically order all or most of their needs from a single supplier. So it is quite possible that they buy their flour from the same place they buy their cheese and sauce. If you can identify their supplier, you might get the names for flour, cheese, etc.

The only other way I can think of to get the supplier information you are looking for without information from someone who works for Mack's or M&M is to park yourself across the street from Mack's and wait for delivery trucks to show up and start unloading. That is something that budding pizza operators wishing to open up their own pizzerias sometimes do to gain intelligence on their future competitors.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 10:31:03 AM
Peter,

Thanks for all the useful information.  I will work on what I can find out about the suppliers.  Your idea is good about being there when they get their deliveries.  Donít know if I can do that one, but maybe someone that is at the shore more often than I can be could find out that information and even then see what the name is on the delivery truck.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 10:32:16 AM
This is one I see alot down there:

http://www.seashorefood.com/
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 10:35:52 AM
This is one I see alot down there:

http://www.seashorefood.com/


ERASMO,

Thanks for the great tip.  ;D  I will start with them and pose as a potential client.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 10:53:10 AM
Norma,

I checked out the Seashore catalog at http://www.seashorefood.com/Catalog2009.pdf, (http://www.seashorefood.com/Catalog2009.pdf,) and tomato/pizza sauce products are at page 14, flour products (including a high-gluten flour) are at page 18, and cheeses (including white cheddar) are at page 25.

Peter

EDIT (6/1/14): For a Wayback Machine version of the above catalog, see http://web.archive.org/web/20090509051205/http://www.seashorefood.com/Catalog2009.pdf (http://web.archive.org/web/20090509051205/http://www.seashorefood.com/Catalog2009.pdf)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 11:01:26 AM
Norma,

I checked out the Seashore catalog at http://www.seashorefood.com/Catalog2009.pdf, and tomato/pizza sauce products are at page 14, flour products (including a high-gluten flour) are at page 18, and cheeses (including white cheddar) are at page 25.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks and I will call them.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 11:24:07 AM
Norma,

If it will help, when I call suppliers to get information my usual practice is to tell them that I am assisting a "friend" who is thinking of opening a pizzeria or offering a particular pizza product, which might include a product that is similar to someone else's product. That way, I don't put myself in a position of having to make any commitments, and they are less likely to be pushy about trying to land me as an account or to buy something from them. I tell them up front that any decisions will be made by my "friend" and that I am only an information gatherer. That gives me plenty of cover.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 11:44:43 AM
Peter,

I didnít read your post before I called, but it went okay.  If someone else wants to call, they can.
I called seashore food and talked to a lady about their products. I told her I had a pizza shop and was thinking about opening one at Wildwood. I first ask if they carried the Gangi Heavy with basil.  The lady I talked to said they didnít carry that product, but after talking to her for awhile said that most of the pizza places at the shore used the Don Pepino sauce in one way or another.  Strike one on that one.  Next I talked to the lady about their kinds of white cheddar and said I am now making pizza with white cheddar. I then didnít talk about mild, medium or sharp cheddar, I just asked about what kinds of white cheddars they were using at the shore. She said they carried LBSCHR sharp white cheddar and WISCON sharp white cheddar.  I then asked her if one of these two cheeses are what other pizza places use at the shore and she said yes.  I told her I was using the State Brand and she said they didnít carry that. I told the lady I was using KASL flour. I also talked about the All Trumps and she said that is what the pizza places use at the shore.

It makes me wonder since they donít carry the Gangi and since both Mackís and Mack and Mancos probably use the same supplier if someone like Sysco Foods might service them or if they might just get the Gangi separately. 

Also I will have to see if there can be more information found on these brands of sharp cheddar.  I am not familiar with these brands.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 11:55:58 AM
I called foremost farm cheese which makes the cheese that Scott R referred to and this is the reply they sent me:

Thank you for your inquiry about Foremost Farms cheese!  You stated you are looking for white cheddar from Foremost Farms.  We produce a 40# block of white cheddar and sell to several northeast US pizzerias. 

 

"The closest place to buy our white cheddar is CW Dunnet & Co.  They are a distributor in Philadelphia. 

Their address is 3200 S. Lawrence St., Philadelphia, PA  19148.  Phone:  215-271-1000.  They are also known as Lkm Foods. "


Also,

I deal with Savona Stavola and they carry a Wisconsin white cheddar in a 40lb block.  I am going to see if they can tell me what brand it is.
 


Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 12:00:54 PM
Here is the link for the Foremost Cheddar.
http://www.foremostfarms.com/Commercial/Cheese/1950-127-Brand.php
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 12:02:34 PM
ERASMO,

That is the same thing the person told me this morning at Foremost Farms, that the white cheddar is only sold in 40 lb. blocks.  There is no way I am going to purchase that much of cheese to try..LOL

Let us know about the Savona Stavola and just how you can purchase that kind of white cheddar.  A 40 lb. block is a lot of cheese.


Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 12:04:23 PM
Just spoke to CW Dunnett.  They do not carry the 1950-127 cheddar.  I emailed the Foremost rep for another supplier.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 06, 2010, 01:35:12 PM
This is Norma's dough from the market that we used to make the Macks pie. It's over a week old at this point. This is also the same cheese(10 oz.) and sauce(7.4 oz.)we used. This is baked in my home oven at 550 for 8 minutes. I should have gotten the sauce a bit closer to the edge, I think. That might have kept the edge a little flatter like I've been told it's supposed to be.
 As for the flavor, it's delicious, but It's not the same as it was on Tuesday at the market. Huh, I wonder why.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 02:02:22 PM
This is Norma's dough from the market that we used to make the Macks pie. It's over a week old at this point. This is also the same cheese(10 oz.) and sauce(7.4 oz.)we used. This is baked in my home oven at 550 for 8 minutes. I should have gotten the sauce a bit closer to the edge, I think. That might have kept the edge a little flatter like I've been told it's supposed to be.
 As for the flavor, it's delicious, but It's not the same as it was on Tuesday at the market. Huh, I wonder why.


Steve,

Your Mack's clone looks delicious.  ;D  I am surprised the dough lasted that long without  being frozen.  I am glad you remember how much sauce and cheese was used.  I forgot to write the amount down after you first weighed out the ingredients. 

Don't you also want to go for a real Mack's pie to compare if the tastes are the same?  :-D  Did you also twirl the pie in the air?

It also looks like you got that gooey and greasy pie.

One more dough ball to go that is frozen and then we will see if we should change the formula in any way.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 02:11:13 PM
Steve,

In your case, how old was the dough? Also, what size pizza did you make?

At Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97457.html#msg97457, Norma said that you used a total of 18 ounces of cheddar cheese (9 oz. + 9 oz.) and 14 1/2 ounces (or maybe less) of Gangi sauce for the pizza baked on Tuesday. However, in your last post, you said 10 ounces of cheese and 7.4 ounces of sauce. Is the discrepancy because of different pizza sizes?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: sear on May 06, 2010, 02:15:03 PM
wheres the drool icon ?  :chef: :pizza:
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 02:26:08 PM
Just talked to another local distributor-  Master Foods.  They said there most popular cheddar for pizza operators that use all cheddar is made by Masonville.  I did a search and not alot of info.  He told me the white cheddar is $1.79 per pound for 40 pound block.

Anyone heard of this brand?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 02:43:47 PM
Just talked to another local distributor-  Master Foods.  They said there most popular cheddar for pizza operators that use all cheddar is made by Masonville.  I did a search and not alot of info.  He told me the white cheddar is $1.79 per pound for 40 pound block.

Anyone heard of this brand?

ERASMO,

What kind of white cheddar is the Masonville?  When I tried the mild and sharp, their wasn't much difference in the taste of the cheese when we tasted it cold, but on the finished pie, there was a noticeable difference in Steve's and my opinions.  The sharp white cheddar did taste a lot like Mack's.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 03:07:17 PM
Steve,

In your case, how old was the dough? Also, what size pizza did you make?

At Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97457.html#msg97457, Norma said that you used a total of 18 ounces of cheddar cheese (9 oz. + 9 oz.) and 14 1/2 ounces (or maybe less) of Gangi sauce for the pizza baked on Tuesday. However, in your last post, you said 10 ounces of cheese and 7.4 ounces of sauce. Is the discrepancy because of different pizza sizes

Peter

Peter,

I am also wondering about this, because we had weighed out the cheese and they were (9 oz. + 9 oz.).  We didn't use all the cheese, but I couldn't remember how much we used, because then I forgot to write it down.  It seemed like we used more than 10 ounces, but I could be wrong.  See if Steve remembers.

We will make sure we measure any remaining ingredients accurately this coming week.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 03:27:02 PM
Norma,

There is no magic number of the amount of cheese to use on a pizza but a typical 16" or 18" pizza even with a heavy hand with the cheese is unlikely to use more than a pound, according to the Burke portion guide at http://www.burkecorp.com/images/stories/pdfs/guides/Pizza%20Toppings%20Guide.pdf. Also, when I looked at the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc, I did not get the impression that there was an overabundance of cheese. If you to make it to Mack's, you may get a chance to watch the cheese and sauce application steps to get a better feel for quantities. Also, if you weigh a typical baked cheese pizza, that will at least give us a base number to modify and work from. Measuring the diameter may also give us another data point.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 03:54:48 PM
Peter,

I could usually judge how much cheese is put on a pizza, but do weigh it for my regular pizzas.  When I grated this State Brand white sharp cheddar, with the Pelican Head, it is stiffer than the mozzarella and seems to come out coarser when it is finished being grated.  This then makes it hard to be able to judge by looks, how much cheese is used.  We used the white sharp cheddar right out of the deli case.  Maybe this week we can try letting it warm up.  When watching the Mackís video, it looks like the cheddar is soft.

When am able to get to Mackís is there anything else I need to take along, except the camera, a tape measure and a scale?  I do have a good Cannon camera, but am not sure if I need that.  I hope I can get some good pictures. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 04:23:02 PM
When am able to get to Mackís is there anything else I need to take along, except the camera, a tape measure and a scale?

Norma,

A long fake wig and dark sunglasses.

Will you be eating the pizza at Mack's, so that you can watch the show, or will you be taking the pizza out? Weighing a just baked pizza can be tricky.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 04:33:00 PM
Norma,

A long fake wig and dark sunglasses.

Will you be eating the pizza at Mack's, so that you can watch the show, or will you be taking the pizza out? Weighing a just baked pizza can be tricky.

Peter

LOL, the fake wig and dark sunglasses were a good one.  :-D  We would probably eat more than one whole pie.  If I get there, what is the point of going if I don't try both places and enjoy the shore.  Probably one back to where we are staying and also some hot. Probably will take the cooler, so I also can bring some home.

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 04:38:21 PM
Probably will take the cooler, so I also can bring some home.

Norma,

Maybe they will sell you one of their dough balls to put in your cooler to take back home with you. If so, you might want a dough ball from their cooler.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 04:45:23 PM
Norma,

Maybe they will sell you one of their dough balls to put in your cooler to take back home with you. If so, you might want a dough ball from their cooler.

Peter

Peter,

Sounds like a great plan, if they are willing to sell me a dough ball.  ::)

Thanks for the idea,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on May 06, 2010, 05:32:33 PM
Steve,

In your case, how old was the dough? Also, what size pizza did you make?

At Reply 159 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97457.html#msg97457, Norma said that you used a total of 18 ounces of cheddar cheese (9 oz. + 9 oz.) and 14 1/2 ounces (or maybe less) of Gangi sauce for the pizza baked on Tuesday. However, in your last post, you said 10 ounces of cheese and 7.4 ounces of sauce. Is the discrepancy because of different pizza sizes?

Peter

The dough I used was 9 days in my possession. I'm not sure how old it was when I got it. Norma would know that.
 I made a 16 inch pie with that dough. It was IMO over fermented and over extensible. Had I tried to toss it, it would likely have flown in all directions! lol
 Today, I used 10 oz. of cheese and 7.4 oz. of sauce. On Tuesday we started out with 9+9 and 14.5 but we did not use all of either one. I think most of the discrepancy can be attributed to lack of note taking and memory.  ???Like Norma said, we were interrupted a couple times by those pesky customers.  ;)
 If I had to guess, I'd say we used somewhere around 10 oz. of sauce and 14 oz. of cheeses, combined. That still sounds like a lot of cheese though.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 06, 2010, 05:58:01 PM
On the topic of the cheese.  I called back master foods because I forgot to ask if the white cheddar they stock was sharp or mild and they told me quite matter of factly "Its mild cheddar, It is used for pizzas" 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 06, 2010, 06:01:13 PM
The dough I used was 9 days in my possession. I'm not sure how old it was when I got it. Norma would know that.

Steve,

That is why I asked the question. I thought that the dough might have overfermented and left too little residual sugar to show up in the color of the finished crust. I can also see how the crust must have been very tasty with all the fermentation byproducts.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 06:02:37 PM
I'm not sure how old it was when I got it. Norma would know that.
I think most of the discrepancy can be attributed to lack of note taking and memory.  ???Like Norma said, we were interrupted a couple times by those pesky customers.  ;)


On the topic of the cheese.  I called back master foods because I forgot to ask if the white cheddar they stock was sharp or mild and they told me quite matter of factly "Its mild cheddar, It is used for pizzas" 

ERASMO,

Thanks for checking on the cheese.  This thread is getting too crazy.  :-D You need to calm us down.  When I called Foremost Farms this morning they, too only had one kind of cheddar.  Hope we finally get this cheese thing straightened out.  :-\

Thanks,

Norma

Steve,

The dough was 1 day old when I gave it to you.  LOL, you are as crazy as I am..those customers and washing dishes can get in the way of our experiments.  Do you think we will get it right this week?  ???

At least we have fun when we work.  All the other standholders are crazy, too.  :-D  You just add more to the craziness.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 10:21:48 PM
Well, you guys, I went to Dollar Tree tonight while shopping for other things.  I found this great incognito blond long hair with sparkles, big sunglasses and a special agent badge.  This thread is partly about "Those Wildwood Days and O Those Wildwood Nights where Mack's is located", so I thought I would dress up to be able to investigate.  8)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jasonm2674 on May 06, 2010, 10:36:43 PM
Norma,

Thank you for taking on this long and very tough project. 

I have been waiting years, literally, to find something like their pizza.   

I have had a connection with these shops in the area and I can add this.  They have a full crew of people who make the dough off site.  I cannot say how long it ferments.  There is actually a location, near on of the stores, that is actually under the boardwalk where they make the dough ahead of time.   

I don't know what process results in this as well, but the crust also doesn't have a "bready" look to it when cooked.  It has always reminded me of a pastry type dough where it might actually be folded and rolled out repeatedly to get that layered cracker edge to it.  I can 100% say that their crust will bubble, they have forks around the ovens they use to pop them down.

The ovens are also typically at 550 from everything I can remember and they had stone shelves.  The metal shelves are hot rolled steel about 1/8" thick and are cured with veg oil.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 06, 2010, 11:23:23 PM
jasonm2674,

I also wondered for many years, how to make a pie like Mackís.  I donít mind trying this out and doing the experimenting.  It then just helps me to understand what different kinds of pizzas are like and also more about pizza dough. 

I want to thank you for telling us about how they make there dough off-site.  I had wondered how they made this much dough, when they sell so many pies in one day at both locations.  I knew their shops werenít really big, especially the one at Wildwood Crest. 

I donít know, but I think the way they open the crust has something to do with the way the rim looks.  Since you said their crust do bubble, and they use bubble poppers, maybe they arenít letting their dough get up to temperature before opening the skins.  Itís just another thought, but I donít know. 

Your knowledge of the oven temperature and stones on the ovens is helpful, too.  I remember when they used to use deck ovens, years ago and still their pies were the same. 

I hope we can recreate this pie by going step by step.  When I made the Mackís clone Tuesday, it sure tasted like Mackís pizza to me, but I will have to wait until I taste a real Mackís pie to see if this is true.

We all appreciate your help,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2010, 08:03:23 AM
I searched some more about Wildwood and see they did some Boardwalk reconstruction in 2008.  This video can give an idea how much space would be under Mackís pizza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6IUgk4ykNg

This video was taken in the winter near the raging waters water park, which is near to Mackís on the middle of the boardwalk.  I almost broke my arm when I went there.  I always went on their rides when I was visiting Wildwood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbBYozMItKk

This is another persons trip going to Wildwood and what it is like.  When I was still a child, this place was very exciting to me.  Always looking for memories.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AL-vMq604Es

Just another feel what Wildwood is like, if other people were never there or experienced Wildwood and Mackís pizza,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 07, 2010, 10:37:58 AM
I did notice while sitting at Macks eating my slice that they all seem to push the dough down and strech it the same way.  The doughs are sitting in the prep area on trays with wax paper over them.  The dough balls are very flat!   maybe only 3/4" thick and appear oiled.  They put the dough ball in a bowl of flour, remove, and then place on the wooden prep table.  They then press the dough out flat with the tips of their fingers.  They press all over the dough ball even out to the edge.  Once that is done they actually strech the dough.  It seems like they are trying to press all the air bubbles out of the dough.

Thought this might be helpful.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jasonm2674 on May 07, 2010, 12:50:44 PM
I remembered this morning another additional little tidbit.  The place they made the dough years ago was a couple blocks down from the store that is open year round.  It is near another of their shops but I cannot remember the street names.  Just before you go up the ramp to the boardwalk look left and it's under there.  There used to be a couple of locked dumpsters there as well.

I want to make this pizza so bad it's ridiculous :) It's been almost 20 years since I was there last and I swear it's the best pizza I've ever eaten.

Best wishes in the ongoing saga :)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2010, 02:59:55 PM
ERASMO,

Thanks for the additional tips about how Mackís opens their dough and how the dough balls sit on trays with wax paper on them. 

By watching the video of the piemen, when they open the skins, it does look like they really donít want much of a raised rim.

Norma

jasonm2674,

Thanks for remembering the addition tips on where Mackís make their dough.  I think I know where you mean.  Hopefully when I am able to get down there, I will see if they might still make their dough the same place.  It right back in the alleyway.  I walked that way many times, but wasnít interested in finding out about Mackís pizza before. 

If you can remember anything else, let us know. 

I also want to see if Mackís pizza is anything like it used to be.  Hopefully when this clone Mackís pizza if finished, you will be able to taste a Mackís pizza again.

Thanks for the additional information,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 07, 2010, 03:36:45 PM
jasonm2674,

Does this help refresh your memory, where the place they might be making the dough is?

Mackís pizza in Wildwood Crest. 3218 Boardwalk

Mackís pizza in Wildwood 4200 Boardwalk, Wildwood   I think Lauraís fudge is right off the boardwalk at this location, number 7 on the map.

Here is the map to Wildwood Boardwalk

http://www.app.com/section/BOARDWALKS07&template=map

Interactive Map of Wildwood, NJ

http://travel.yahoo.com/p-map-477776-map_of_wildwood_nj-i

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2010, 01:51:51 PM
I recently made another Mackís clone dough and pizza. This time, however, I made some changes based on my last results with this style of pizza. One of the major changes was to use a lower value of thickness factor, nominally 0.072, so as to achieve a thinner finished crust. I also reduced the hydration by one percent (to 57%), to reduce the dough extensibility, and I reduced the amount of yeast a bit (to 0.20%) to get a 3-day window of usability of the dough. I also used a different method to prepare the dough, as will be discussed more fully below. As before, I used a blend of King Arthur bread flour (KABF) and vital wheat gluten (VWG). I used the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to calculate the amounts of KABF and VWG to achieve an ďeffectiveĒ protein content for the blend of 14.4%.

The dough formulation that I used, as put together using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, was as follows, for a single 18Ē pizza:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.25%):
Total (163.45%):
320.96 g  |  11.32 oz | 0.71 lbs
182.95 g  |  6.45 oz | 0.4 lbs
0.64 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.21 tsp | 0.07 tbsp
6.42 g | 0.23 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.15 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
9.63 g | 0.34 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.12 tsp | 0.71 tbsp
4.01 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
524.62 g | 18.5 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.07272
Note: For a single 18Ē pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.072; bowl residue compensation = 1%
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 310.84 grams (10.96 ounces) KABF and 10.12 grams (0.36 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (3 3/8 teaspoon)

Because of the relatively small amount of dough involved, 18.5 ounces, my original plan was to see if I could use my Cuisinart food processor (14-cup capacity), with the metal blade attached, to make the dough. To this end, I combined and placed all of the dry ingredients directly in the food processor bowl, and I combined the water and oil and gradually added the mixture to the food processor bowl while using the pulse feature. To keep the finished dough temperature below 80 degrees F, I used cold water, at a temperature of 47.7 degrees F. While the food processor did a pretty good job combining all of the dough ingredients, it struggled trying to knead the dough into a smooth round ball, even at full speed. I believe the cause was the relatively low hydration (57%) of the dough. So, I removed the dough from the processor bowl and finished kneading it in my basic KitchenAid mixer with the C-hook. I kneaded the dough at speed 2 for about 4 minutes. The combination of the food processor and KA stand mixer actually did a nice job of kneading the dough, so good, in fact, that I plan to experiment more with this method at a future date to see if it does a better job with other doughs with relatively low hydration than using either my food processor or stand mixer alone.

After hand kneading the dough for about 30 seconds, I lightly oiled it, placed two poppy seeds spaced 1Ē apart at the center of the dough ball, and, as before, placed the dough ball into a metal cookie tin with a sheet of plastic wrap covering the tin and secured with a rubber band. The dough, with a finished dough temperature of 77.3 degrees F, went into the refrigerator. Based on the spacing of the two poppy seeds during the fermentation period, the dough doubled in volume at almost exactly 72 hours (3 days). I decided to use the dough at this time. So, after removing the dough ball from the refrigerator, I flattened it into a roughly 8Ē disk, to simulate what I saw in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc, and let the dough temper at a room temperature of about 78-79 degrees F for about 2 Ĺ hours. The dough disk looked and felt like what I saw from the video. As with the Mackís dough disks shown in the video, the dough did not evidence any visible bubbling during the temper period.

When I decided to form the skin, I found that I could handle and shape the dough into an 18Ē skin much like I saw in the video. The dough wasnít quite as robust as the doughs shown in the video, but there was a good balance between elasticity and extensibility and I had no problem opening up the dough ball, stretching it and tossing it. The dough handling was considerably easier than my last effort. Once the skin was at 18Ē, I placed it on my 18Ē pizza screen, pressed the outer rim so as to remain as flat as possible during baking, and dressed it. One difference I noted between my finished skin and a Mackís skin as shown in the video is that my skin exhibited bubbling. I did not see it in the Mackís skin in the video. In the past where I have seen little or no bubbling in the dough at this stage it was because of the use of a lot of oil. I am not sure if that is how Mackís does it, but it is something to consider. It might also mean using even less yeast and/or possibly a shorter fermentation time.

This time, for the sauce, I used a 6-ounce can of Contadina tomato paste, which I thinned with water to the desired consistency and to which I added sugar, dried oregano, dried basil, and garlic powder. I placed around 6 ounces of the sauce, by weight, into my plastic squeeze bottle. With this sauce, I was trying mainly for the deeper sauce color that seems to be part of a Mackís pizza. For cheese, I used a combination of shredded mild white cheddar cheese (O Organics brand) and shredded extra sharp NY white cheddar cheese (Lucerne brand). Both cheeses have 9 grams of total fat per serving. I used 8 ounces of the O Organics white cheddar cheese and 2 ounces of the extra sharp white cheddar cheese, for a total of 10 ounces. The pizza was dressed in the same manner as last described. The weight of the unbaked pizza was 927 grams, or about 32.7 ounces. Until Norma returns back from her trip to Mackís et al, I wonít have a good idea as to what a typical Mackís or M&M pizza weighs. I believe that getting the right weight of dough ball will go a long way to trying to replicate a Mackís et al pizza.

In preparation for baking the pizza, I placed my 14Ē x 16Ē pizza stone on the lowest oven rack position of my electric oven and preheated the oven for about an hour at around 525 degrees F. To bake the pizza, I placed the screen with the pizza on it on the topmost oven rack position where it baked for about 3 Ĺ minutes, or until it had set and could be moved. The crust was still a light color but the cheeses were bubbling. I then moved the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto the preheated pizza stone at the lowest oven rack position, where it finished baking for about another 3 minutes, or just long enough to develop char on the bottom of the crust but without burning.

The photos below show the finished product. Overall, I thought that the pizza turned out very well. However, while I didnít get the ďorangeĒ oil/fat condition that I last got, the fats did not easily or profusely run off of the slices onto my paper plate. I believe that the reason was either that I didnít use the right cheeses or I didnít use enough. The latter case seems plausible because more of the sauce showed up visually in the finished pizza than the cheese. However, I think I know how to solve this problem the next time I make this type of pizza. The finished crust was also not as cracker-like at the rim as I was looking for, which suggests that I may need to adjust the bake temperature/times to get a slightly drier crust next time. However, I think that is something that can be addressed and resolved in a future effort. Even without the proper sauce and cheeses, I thoroughly enjoyed the pizza. The crust was thin with good color and flavor. There was some bubbling in the finished crust and a small amount of blistering.

What this latest effort demonstrated is that is seems feasible to make an 18Ē Mackís clone pizza in a standard home oven using a pizza screen and stone combination in a straightforward manner without going through multiple contortions in the handling of the pizza and multiple oven temperature adjustments while the pizza bakes. Also, the broiler element is not used. Of course, those with a stone large enough to accommodate an 18Ē pizza without the need to use a pizza screen as I did should be able to bake the pizza entirely on the stone, possibly with better overall results. However, in my oven, the 18Ē screen is the largest size screen I can use. It cannot take a stone larger than that. FWIW, I estimate that my pizza cost me a bit over $5 in ingredients. M&M charges $14.50 for a plain 18" pizza.

Hopefully, Norma will return with more information to guide our future efforts.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2010, 01:56:20 PM
And some slice pics....

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: pcampbell on May 08, 2010, 04:15:18 PM
I might have to give this a try with this stuff I found at Restaurant Depot!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 08, 2010, 04:53:19 PM
Peter,

That's a fantastic looking pie! Great job as usual...

I should give your formula a try.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 08, 2010, 05:47:44 PM
Thanks, Mike. I hope you do give the Mack's clone a try. I'd like to see others do the same. The more members on the playing field the better.

It's a real challenge to try to reverse engineer and clone a pizza that you have never had, and using home equipment to do it. Also, making an 18" pizza with a hand tossed skin puts your skills to the test. Every time I make an 18" pizza I am amazed at how big such a pizza is. 

The photo below is of a leftover slice that I reheated today in my toaster oven. I put some additional shredded white cheddar cheese on the slice before reheating it. That is somewhat what I would like to achieve with a whole Mack's clone but in a more natural rather than a contrived way. My next iteration will address that issue along with any other issues that Norma may identify from her visit to Mack's et al.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 08, 2010, 06:04:31 PM
Peter,

I will. Perhaps this weekend. But since I never had the Mack's pizza I don't know what the characteristics of the crust should be or what to look out/shoot for.

I'm also dabbling around with my rustic sourdough pies so it might be fun to try two completely different crusts.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 04:35:15 PM
Peter,

I see you are using a lower value for the thickness factor.  I visited Wildwood this weekend.  I visited both Mackís different times and I got to know the pizza men.  There are all really nice men.  I have a lot of pictures and videos to post after I finish uploading.  After visiting I now believe the thickness factor should go up. 

The Mackís pizza did taste as wonderful as they did before in my opinion.  :) After really tasting the Mackís pizza, I no longer believe that sharp white cheddar is used in making their pies. 

Your method sounds good in mixing the dough and also in making an 8" disk.  I am also now thinking maybe your idea of using a lower hydration is a good idea.  After tasting the real Mackís pizza, I think the crust is more bread like, with a little crunch when eaten. 

Your finished pizza looks delicious.   :)

It will probably take me a couple days to write all the information and do the posts.

I see in post #208 you will address any other issues that Normal may identify.  After you see all that I am going to post, you might not consider me normal.  I did go dumpter diving at both Mackís.

Norma

pcampbell,

I really donít think after visiting Mackís that the cheese is sharp cheddar.

Norma

Mike,

I hope you do try this clone Mackís pizza, also.  :) It would be great to have you on board.  We will need all the help we can get in reverse engineering this pizza.  I am also hoping other members can look at these pictures and videos and give us some more ideas. I feel bad to post some of these things, because the people at both Mackís were great.  They were so friendly.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 05:17:30 PM
We arrived at Wildwood about 9:45 pm Friday.  My daughter and I also took the dogs along to Wildwood.  After we unpacked our belongings we took the dogs for a long walk, to Mackís pizza.  She stayed off the boardwalk and I went on the boardwalk to purchase two slices to take back to where we were staying.  I talked to the piemen and also took a video of them making a pie.  They were about to close and were making the last two pies.  They had just opened the dough while I was sitting there and had finished throwing the dough.  I will explain more about this later. 

These are a few pictures of Mackís pizza, that we brought back to where we were staying to heat up in the microwave.

These pictures are why I think the crust is thicker than I previously thought. If anyone has the same thoughts let me know.  I will post other pictures, also.  It will take awhile to upload the videos.

Norma
   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2010, 06:17:41 PM
Norma,

I assume the slices are from an 18" pizza, or whatever diameter you measured. Can you confirm the weight for the slice on the scale and tell us part of the whole pizza it represented (e.g., 1/6th or 1/8th)?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 06:35:59 PM
Norma,

I assume the slices are from an 18" pizza, or whatever diameter you measured. Can you confirm the weight for the slice on the scale and tell us part of the whole pizza it represented (e.g., 1/6th or 1/8th)?

Peter

These are the first two videos.  The first video the pieman had already opened the dough and had twirled it.  I had asked him if he could now still twirl the skin.  He said it was already opened, but tried.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4sm9NavMDU


The second video shows how the pieman dresses the pizza.  I was talking to women beside me, that were from Wildwood and come and eat Mackís pizza all the time.  They also believe this pizza is the best.  They knew I was from Amish country with my accent.  I think in this video you can see how thick the hose is.  The women that were from Wildwood, were talking about the hose.  I asked the pieman if I could take this video.  He said he was making pizza for 25 years.  The oven was fluctuating between 564-570 degrees F that evening.  The other days the oven temperature was different temperatures.  There were no stones on any of the Roto-Flex ovens. I only bought 2 slices this night and had asked if I could come in a watch.  I weighed the slices when I got back to where we were staying and the 1 slice weighed 4.6 oz. and the second slice weighed 4.7 oz.  The dough looked dry and dark in color.  I found out later the dough looked more moist, when on the dough trays between the wax paper. The sauce didnít look really thick and if I would have to guess, the hose seemed like it was about 1" in diameter.  It looked like the spices were added to the sauce.  You could see some oregano or other spices coming out of the hose.  When they were finished making the last two pies, they did wash the hose somehow.  I guess it was coming from the basement.  I looked behind this Mackís and saw the trash, but someone was outside at the time.  The sauce seemed thinner coming out of the hose, than what Steve and I used.  I sound really corny in this video, but was just trying to ask some questions. Youíll hear the lady sitting beside me ask about the cheese. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5VtyW-TPsU

Norma

Peter,

I didnít take notice to what how they sliced the pies that night I took these videos, but I brought home a pie that is parbaked, I need to weigh it now, before I freeze or refrigerated it.  How should I proceed with that?  They told me last night to come in today, before we left, to get a whole pizza parbaked.  I put it on the hood of the car, but it was so windy, that while I put the other items in the car, the wind blew the whole box off the car onto the parking lot.  It didnít ruin it, but then, it did put some cheese on the top of the pizza box.  This was from a 18" pie.  I had to hurry that night, because they were soon closing.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2010, 06:53:11 PM
I didnít take notice to what how they sliced the pies that night I took these videos, but I brought home a pie that is parbaked, I need to weigh it now, before I freeze or refrigerated it.  How should I proceed with that?  They told me last night to come in today, before we left, to get a whole pizza parbaked.  I put it on the hood of the car, but it was so windy, that while I put the other items in the car, the wind blew the whole box off the car onto the parking lot.  It didnít ruin it, but then, it did put some cheese on the top of the pizza box.

Norma,

I would just weigh the pizza and note its value. Pizzas lose some weight when they cool down, so a freshly baked pizza will weigh more. I once ran a test on this with a Papa John's pizza. I will have to see if I have my notes on the extent of the weight loss.

You might also note the diameter of the pizza. I am curious to know if there was any shrinkage during baking.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 06:56:57 PM
These are some of the pictures of the parbaked pie I brought home today.  I took some pictures in the parking lot and also some pictures in the car.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 07:04:40 PM
rest of pictures of parbaked pie.  I will weigh the pie. I will post more pictures of this parbaked pie later, my computer won't keep up with quickly trying to resize them.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 07:16:19 PM
Peter,

I am trying to weigh this pie, but it is so big, I can't see the numbers on the scale.  I did put a pizza tray on the scale and tare it first, but since the pie is not stiff, it wants to droop over the edges.  Do you have any ideas on how I can weigh it and be able to see the numbers?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: widespreadpizza on May 09, 2010, 07:45:33 PM
Norma,  put something tall on your scale,  something like a paint can shaped object,  then put the box on top of it.  save the box to deduct later.  -marc
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 07:53:38 PM
Norma,  put something tall on your scale,  something like a paint can shaped object,  then put the box on top of it.  save the box to deduct later.  -marc

widespreadpizza,

Thanks for the tip on trying to weigh this big pie.  :-D  I sure couldn't figure it out.  I sure can use the help after the pie blew off the car.  I was going to weigh it there before we came home, but it was too windy.

Thanks,

Norma

Peter,

The Mack's parbaked pie measures 17" x 17 1/4". 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 08:04:41 PM
widespreadpizza,

Your idea worked great.   ;D  I used a plastic pitcher combined with a pizza tray and the weight of the pizza is 2 lb. 2oz.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2010, 08:51:05 PM
Norma,

The last two Mack clone pizzas I made weighed about 36 ounces and 32.7 ounces, unbaked. Unfortunately, I did not weigh the baked pizzas to see what the weight losses were. But I can tell you that the dough for the last pizza looked and felt much more in the ballpark based on the video that I used as my guide. My thinking after making the last pizza was that I would perhaps increase the dough weight a bit for the next iteration and add more cheese, which I concluded was perhaps too low for the last two pizzas, but beyond that I wasn't sure what other changes might be required. Maybe the changes I have in mind will get me closer to the weight of a Mack's pizza. However, I would have to determine the weight loss with my oven arrangement and revisit all of the numbers to see how they line up. By any chance, were you able to determine the weight of a Mack's or M&M dough ball or to estimate the amount of cheese used on the pizzas? Or the type or brand of any of the dominant ingredients?

You also mentioned the possibility of using a lower hydration. Was there something you saw that led you to conclude that a lower hydration was desirable?

Thanks for everything you and your daughter did to help the project along.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 10:40:42 PM
Peter,

Here is another video I uploaded. If you also look what other videos I uploaded you can see some more.  I will show links to these later.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbZWoq_Kz3o

Since today is Motherís Day and my mother and granddaughter were over this evening, I didnít have time to post more pictures or go over what happened over the weekend.  I can tell you that Mackís uses Kyrol flour.  I will post the pictures later.  I did get some dough that was throw away in the trash and did ball it up and put it into the freezer where we were staying.  I bought it home in the cooler and put it into the freezer.  It looked like it had some stuff on it, but in that trash can, there was only the bags of flour and not too many other things. 

Since your dough handled so well, I will make my next dough in the lines of yours.  I will read over this more in the coming days.  So much happened over the weekend and I think I learned a lot from watching.  I really enjoyed this trip.  My daughter was really helpful in eating Mack's pizza and also giving me feedback.  I will tell her you thanked her.  We went to two beaches.  The one at Wildwood and also the beach near Cape May where the ferry goes across to Lewes, Delaware.

I didn't mean about lowering the hydration any lower than the 57% you just tried in your recent Mack's experiment.  I just meant I needed to lower my hydration in the dough I made.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 10:54:50 PM
These are a few more pictures of the Mackís slices we brought back to where we were staying. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 10:59:36 PM
a few more

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 09, 2010, 11:03:30 PM
two more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 07:56:09 AM
Since this thread is about NJ Boardwalk pizza and I had posted before other links to what Wildwood was like, I will now post what a short trip to Wildwood is like.  It is an interesting place, with many things to do, besides eating Mackís pizza. 

I have been to Wildwood many times over the years and have many memories since I was a child, until I am older now.  This is a trip back in time to memory lane for me and also memories to last.

It was always exciting to visit Wildwood.  I still feel the same about visiting Wildwood and also eating Mackís pizza.  It is a great place to just park your car and walk and listen to the ocean.

We decided to walk to Mackís pizza the first night we were visiting.  I was going to buy a whole pie, but thought about it, and decided to go to Mackís and just have slices different times, to be able to watch what they do in making their pizzas.  Even after reheating a slice of Mackís pizza in the microwave, the pizza was delicious.  The bottom wasnít crisp, but the flavor of Mackís pizza was still there.  I find it interesting that some people comment that Mackís pizza has gone downhill, because after trying different slices, I didnít find that.  The piemen did tell me that Mackís did have 5 places in Wildwood years ago.

After the first night spent at Wildwood, we awoke to the sounds of seagulls.  That is a lot different than being at home.  We took the dogs to the beach and walked for a long while and gathered some shells.  There werenít many people on the beach because the season isnít in full swing at this time.  There were some fishermen fishing from the shore.

We then went back to were we were staying and decided to go to Cape May to where the ferry goes with cars and passengers to Lewes, Delaware.  This isnít the ocean, but a nice place to visit and just relax. The sand is coarser there. You can watch the boats going out to the ocean.  This is just about a 15 minute trip from Wildwood.  When driving there you can see the many boats and yachts along the way. 

When we returned to where we were staying we decided to walk the boardwalk.  It is about two miles long.  There are two Mackís pizza places on the boardwalk. There is also a Samís pizza near the first pier. Some people say Samís is better than Mackís.  I also watched the piemen make their pizzas and they do it about the same as Mackís, but donít twirl the skins. They also have a Roto-flex oven. On the way back we decided to take the famous tram car.  We had Mackís pizza and talked to the piemen. 

In the evening we took the dogs on the beach, again.

The next morning we went to the beach, again.  It is so quiet there now, compared to summer.  There is a boardwalk on the ground, off the beach in North Wildwood, where you can walk along the dunes. You can always hear the seagulls and hear the Atlantic Ocean hitting the shore.

When we visited Macksí pizza different times they did have different oven temperatures.  The digital readout at Mackís fluctuated between 534 to 564 degrees F. At the Mackís pizza in Wildwood Crest, they didnít have a digital readout. Each time we sat at the counter to watch them make their pies.  The dough seemed like it was so easy to open.  The last morning we were there, they werenít using the hose to apply the sauce.  They had some kind of what looked like a stainless steel teapot that they applied the sauce with.  The night before I had talked to one of the piemen about taking a whole pizza home.  He said that many people take a parbaked pizza home, so it would taste fresher when reheating.  We also enjoyed a slice of pizza while watching them parbake the pizza we were going to take home.  I asked the piemen what temperature I should bake the pizza at home and also if you could freeze slices of the parbaked pizza.  They told me that their ovens are set at 500 degrees F and to try and bake at that temperature.  They also said you can cut the pie into slices and individually freeze each slice.  I left one slice in the refrigerator and froze the rest.  I am going to give Steve one slice tomorrow to try at home.  I did buy a Mackís pizza tee shirt and a Wildwood Hat. I enjoyed Polish ice, Douglasís fudge, and a place that is named Curly Fries on the boardwalk.  I also bought some Douglasís fudge and saltwater taffy to enjoy at home. 

These links will show people that are following this thread, what Wildwood and the beach at Cape May inlet are like.  It was windy at the shore, so in these videos you can hear the wind and see how the sand was blowing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUMcOjXdjOU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HABA2gPqePc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a6ZT5HmMvfQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrIZFkZi5hM

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 07:57:48 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 07:59:38 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 08:04:49 AM
we even got to enjoy the view in my daughter's car with the top down, at the shore.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 08:29:08 AM
Pictures of Mackís pizza at Wildwood and Wildwood Crest.  I didnít take any pictures inside of  while we were eating their slices, because I wanted to be able to take the videos, so members could watch and hopefully get some more ideas. We sat at the counter the different times we were there.  I now believe they make their dough at the location at Wildwood Crest.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 10:36:15 AM
Does anyone know how I should proceed to do tests on the frozen dough balls from Mack's? 

I even purchased a bottle of beachfront property with seashells for 1.00 at a store on the boardwalk.  ;D

These are the rest of the pictures of the parbaked pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 10:38:56 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 11:46:29 AM
Norma,

I am still reading and digesting the new information from your recent posts but with respect to the frozen dough ball I would let it thaw out in the refrigerator for a day before letting it warm up to make a pizza with it. Were you able to tell if the dough you found was for a single normal dough ball? If so, you might want to weight it. In fact, you might weigh it anyway just to have that data point.

I found my post in which I determined the weight loss of a pizza as it cooled down after removing it from the oven. It was for a Papa John's clone pizza. As I discussed at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6749.msg58335/topicseen.html#msg58335, it took about an hour for the pizza to stop losing weight, and the weight loss was a little over an ounce for a roughly 35 ounce 14" pizza, or a loss of a bit over 3%. The thermodynamics of a thinner 18" pizza like your Mack's pizza will be different but there should still be some weight loss. Also, in your case, your pizza was par-baked rather than fully baked.

It looks like you are getting closer to the goal of replicating a Mack's pizza. You now know the type and brand of flour, and you apparently know the brand of pizza sauce. You generally know the type of cheese (mild white cheddar) but not the brand. You know the desired and actual oven temperatures. You know the pizza size. If I am not mistaken, apart from the specific dough formulation, what appears to be missing is the balance between weights of dough, sauce and cheese. We also apparently don't know the duration of the cold fermentation.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 11:46:41 AM
Norma,

Those are some great pics! They look almost identical to the Atlantic shore in Holland with all the dunes and beaches.

I had an Ex who used to work in North Wildwood as a traveling nurse a few years ago and I believe her Mom still owns the condo where she stayed at that time.

Man, when I saw that pic of the Horseshoe crab - that's what it is, right? - I had a hard time believing that this species is around for at least 300 million years! I guess she's seen her fare share of strange things in her life  ;D


Peter,

I had to convert your formula, or downscale it actually, from 18" to 14" since my oven isn't as big. I'll post the formula in a little bit before I start making the dough.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 01:29:55 PM
Peter,

The dough was not a normal dough ball to my knowledge.  It was a glob of dough, that I then divided into 4 dough balls.  I didnít weigh the dough, but have 4 different dough balls that are now frozen.  I did ball the dough, and just put it in the freezer at the place we were staying.  The one dough ball is little.  I also did taste the dough and it tasted saltier than my normal dough.  I didnít swallow it, but wanted to see how it tasted. 

Thank you for finding your post on the experiment you did on how much loss of weight there is while baking and cooling.  It is interesting to find out how much loss of weight there is.  Since this pizza was just parbaked, I wonder how much weigh loss there was.  Also since the wind was so strong that it sent the pizza and box over two parking place, there was still loss in the cheese that ended up in the top of the box.  My daughter was walking the dogs and heard me yell, ďO no, not my pizzaĒ.   The person that was parked next to where it landed, almost ran over it.  They were backing up and luckily saw what happened.  They were laughing, too.  My daughter said she never saw me take off and run so fast.  At least we had a laugh over that.

In my opinion the sauce did have a different flavor than what Steve and I tested.  I will get Steve to also taste this parbaked pizza and see what he thinks.  In my opinion it tasted like some more added garlic and more oregano, or stronger oregano than we had used. 

I was surprised when I finally got to taste Mackís real pie.  It shows what is in your mind, might not be so. In my opinion, it is just mild white cheddar, that goes into their pies.  Now to find the brand or something that tastes like it. 

In your opinion, what would have made this real Mackís pizza have a breadier taste?  It was soft along with a little crispness.  Your recent experiment looks like you are getting great results.  I have to change my formula and see what happens. Do you have any ideas?  I think we are all getting closer, in finding out what goes into making a Mackís pizza.

Thanks for your help,

Norma   

Mike,

Thanks for saying they are great pics.  I just love the ocean and everything that goes along with the shore.  My father used to help me dig sand crabs and fish at the shore, and even my granddaughter and I would put water in a bucket and look to see all the living things we found there.  It is amazing all the things that are in the water at the beach.  You are right, they are horseshoe crabs.  This one was still alive and I put it back in the ocean.  They are also amazing.  They look fierce, but donít harm you.  That is also interesting that you knew someone from Wildwood. 

The picture you supplied looks beautiful.  I really liked getting up early and going out to see the sun come up on the horizon when I was small.

I am happy you are also going along in this experiment,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 03:50:29 PM
Norma,

I don't work with bromated flours so I haven't learned how they behave under different conditions. However, scott r, who has worked with such flours, says that when using such flours you will get a lighter, softer crust that still crisps up on the outside. I believe that there are also more alveoles in the crumb than with unbromated flours but they will be about the same size and packed more densely. Many of the slice photos you posted seem to exhibit that characteristic so maybe the bromates are responsible. Using a lot of oil might also produce a similar effect.

Since I have been using King Arthur bread flour, which is unbromated, I would have to think about using either ascorbic acid as a substitute for bromates (just as the big chains do to avoid using bromated flours) or else let the skin proof on the pizza screen for a while to allow the skin to get a bit more height before dressing and baking.

As far as my next experiment with this style is concerned, I think I may adjust the protein content of the KABF/VWG blend to more closely match the roughly 13.8-14.2% protein content of the Kyrol high-gluten flour. I will perhaps stick with the same hydration as I used with the last dough because I liked the way the dough handled when time came to open it up. I am thinking of increasing the weight of the dough by an ounce or so and to increase the amount of cheese to get a total unbaked pizza weight of around 36-37 ounces. For a nominal thickness factor (before using a bowl residue compensation), I am thinking of a TF of 0.07663. I am also thinking of using a longer bake at lower oven temperature in order to get the crispier rim characteristics that I noted from the photos and videos of the Mack's and M&M pizzas. 

Peter
 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 05:26:51 PM
Peter,

Should I hold off on your first formula and wait until you have the new one together before I start making the Mack dough?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 05:43:36 PM
Peter,

I also donít use bromated flours anymore, except in special circumstances like this.  I canít  remember how the bromated flours did perform, but remember I really did like them.  I just wanted to get away from them, like many others.  I did use Kyrol flour in my first dough for this Mackís clone pizza, so I will stay with that.  They sell it at our local country store, so it is easy to get in small amounts. 

Since you liked the way the dough handled in your last experiment, I will also try to go along the lines.  Your experiment now makes it easier for me and others that want to try this.  I was just wondering if there was some way I could mix this dough by hand and get the same results?  In my mixer at market, I have to at least mix 5 dough balls, for the hook to be able to pick everything up.  I will think about if I want to make the 5 dough balls, again.  When scott r said this dough is probably mixed for a long while in a fully loaded mixer, the idea of mixing by hand probably isnít a good idea at this time.  Since I donít have any home mixer this will give me something to think about. 

I also wanted to say while watching the piemen make the pizzas, it did seem like they added more cheese than I had originally thought.   I couldn't really tell how much, but it looked to be about 14 oz.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 06:18:55 PM
Should I hold off on your first formula and wait until you have the new one together before I start making the Mack dough?

Mike,

I thought that you had already started a Mack's clone dough so my comments in my last post were mainly to provide some guidance to Norma. It may be a while before I make the next Mack's clone dough since I am still living off of the leftovers of my last pizza. However, so as not to slow you down, what I was thinking of as my next Mack's clone dough formulation, as created using the expanded dough formulation at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, is the following:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (163.7%):
341.08 g  |  12.03 oz | 0.75 lbs
194.42 g  |  6.86 oz | 0.43 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.22 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
10.23 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.25 tsp | 0.75 tbsp
5.12 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
558.35 g | 19.69 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = 0.0773963
Note: For a single 18" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 332.85 grams (11.74 ounces) KABF and 8.23 grams (0.29 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (2 3/4 t.)

As you can see from the above dough formulation, I am planning to live or die with the 18" size. In your case, the corresponding dough formulation for the 14" size would be:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (163.7%):
206.33 g  |  7.28 oz | 0.45 lbs
117.61 g  |  4.15 oz | 0.26 lbs
0.41 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.14 tsp | 0.05 tbsp
4.13 g | 0.15 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
6.19 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
3.1 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.78 tsp | 0.26 tbsp
337.77 g | 11.91 oz | 0.74 lbs | TF = 0.0773963
Note: For a single 14" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%

I will sometimes make a change at the last moment as I am staring at the expanded dough calculating tool and thinking about things, but the above represents my current thinking. I did not note the KABF/VWG breakdown for the 14" size since I was not sure what kind of VWG you might use. However, using November's Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, I used a 14% target for the value of the protein content of the blend.

I am also planning to use my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor together with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook to see if I can get results better than I can get using either machine alone. I haven't decided at this point what fermentation period I will be using. I think it will be three days again but I might go a bit shorter. This is a tougher issue because it looks like Mack's and maybe M&M are using an offsite mini-commissary to make dough balls for all of the stores. Since the stores are fairly close to each other, distance may not be a problem and, if there is adequate storage space at the mini-commissary, they may be able to make and store dough balls within a fairly wide window of usability. However, with the volume the stores seem to be doing, I would tend to guess shorter fermentation times rather than long ones. But that is just my educated guess. If I were in their shoes, I think I would want to use 1-2 days, which would mean using more yeast.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 06:34:39 PM
Peter,

Very cool!

Thanks for the info. I use the KABF and Bob's Red Mill VWG so I'll check that out. I haven't started with the dough yet because last night I was making some sourdough pizzas for some friends here. But I'll get started on the Mack's clone today.

I plan on using a 24hr fermentation, cold-rise. Perhaps I should up the yeast amount to 0.3% then, instead of 0.2%?

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 06:35:32 PM
I was just wondering if there was some way I could mix this dough by hand and get the same results?

I also wanted to say while watching the piemen make the pizzas, it did seem like they added more cheese than I had originally thought.   I couldn't really tell how much, but it looked to be about 14 oz.

Norma,

If you will be using the Kyrol high-gluten flour, you should be able to hand knead the dough but because of the relatively low hydration, you may have to limit the number of dough balls you will be making and also use one or more rest periods to allow better hydration of the flour. The use of oil in the dough should help make it easier to knead the dough but, even then, it won't exactly be a day at the beach (to borrow a current phrase) to knead the dough. I think I would also sift the flour at the outset. If you find that the dough is too dry, you might want to add a bit more water to get the dough balls to a manageable stage. I think your Kyrol flour should be able to hydrate better than my KABF/VWG blend.

On the matter of the cheese, I was also thinking of about 14 ounces of cheese, or maybe a bit less. The next dough formulation I plan to use will make about 19.5 ounces of dough. Using around 5 ounces or so of pizza sauce and, say, 12-14 ounces of cheese, would get me to about 36.5-38.5 ounces as the total unbaked pizza weight. I will have to calculate the difference between the unbaked weight and the baked weight to determine what the losses are in my oven with my particular bake protocol. That delta may guide us to other possible changes.

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 06:41:55 PM
I came up with this formula for two 14" pies, using the expanded calculator with the yeast at 0.3%.

KABF/VWG Blend(100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.3%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (163.8%):
Single Ball:
408.33 g  |  14.4 oz | 0.9 lbs
232.75 g  |  8.21 oz | 0.51 lbs
1.22 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
8.17 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
12.25 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.7 tsp | 0.9 tbsp
6.12 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.54 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
668.85 g | 23.59 oz | 1.47 lbs | TF = 0.07663
334.42 g | 11.8 oz | 0.74 lbs
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 06:43:38 PM
I plan on using a 24hr fermentation, cold-rise. Perhaps I should up the yeast amount to 0.3% then, instead of 0.2%?

Mike,

Yes, I would use at least 0.30% or a bit more if it is cool out where you are. Your one-day test should be a good one since it might give us an idea as to the quality of the results using only one day of cold fermentation. Since Mack's has been around for so long we may be guessing wrong on this. They may have adopted the philosophy that "if its isn't broke, don't fix it" and may have stuck with their basic methods for many years. Mack's also has a lot of locals and regulars to keep happy, even with what appears to be a bustling tourist business.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 06:46:29 PM
Peter,

Right now here in Northern California it's chilly and raining. Crappy weather, in other words.  ;D

So I'll adjust the yeast to perhaps 0.5% and use the 24hr cold-rise. I have to use my Cuisinart Stand Mixer since I don't have a food processor.

Here's the adjusted new formula:

KABF/VWG Blend (100%):
Water (57%):
IDY (0.5%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (164%):
Single Ball:
411.91 g  |  14.53 oz | 0.91 lbs
234.79 g  |  8.28 oz | 0.52 lbs
2.06 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.68 tsp | 0.23 tbsp
8.24 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.48 tsp | 0.49 tbsp
12.36 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.72 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
6.18 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.55 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
675.54 g | 23.83 oz | 1.49 lbs | TF = 0.0773963
337.77 g | 11.91 oz | 0.74 lbs
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 06:58:55 PM
Peter,

I think I am going to try to hand mix and see what happens.  I donít know if it will be this week, but maybe next Monday.  I still have the slices of Mackís parbaked to play around with.  I think I am going to take one slice that is in the refrigerator now and the one frozen slice for Steve to try to market tomorrow and bake in my oven.  I also might take the one frozen dough ball to try.  I really didnít expect the hand mixing to be like a day at the beach.   :-D

On the amount of sauce that was applied yesterday, when the piemen were making the parbaked pizza, there seemed to be more than 5 oz. of pizza sauce applied in my opinion. I apply 8 oz. or a little more to my pizzas at market and it looked like more than that. In my other post I said they werenít using the hose and it did seem like more sauce was applied when watching them apply the sauce with a stainless steel kind of tea pot. Even in the pictures of the parbaked pie I brought home, it still doesnít look like a lot of sauce, but is more than I thought before.  We sat and ate our slices while watching.  If I had to guess how much sauce was applied it looked to be about at least 10 oz. or more.

Thanks for setting forth a formula,

Norma

Mike,

I am anxious to hear how your Mackís pie develops. 

Good luck  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 07:25:59 PM
Norma,

Thanks for the additional information on the pizza sauce. I will have to play around with the balance between dough weight, cheese weight and sauce weight. I hope to get a better fix on things after I make the next pizza. What I have observed is that when cheese is free thrown and sauce comes out of a hose, the lack of accurate portioning can produce results that vary all over the place. The Mack's pizzas seem to have many different looks. However, one aspect that seems to remain fairly constant is the blood red color of their sauce. I don't have any tomato product on hand that produces that deep red color. BTW, I read in a couple of places that Mack's adds olive juice to their sauce. Maybe you should have your Mack's sauce undergo spectral analysis to see if that is true  :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 07:47:36 PM
Norma,

BTW, I read in a couple of places that Mack's adds olive juice to their sauce. Maybe you should have your Mack's sauce undergo spectral analysis to see if that is true  :-D.

Peter

Peter,

Maybe if they are adding olive oil, that is why the taste of their sauce is different than what Steve and I used.  Could be something to try.  ;D  I was going to ask for a extra container of pizza sauce, but my daughter said, "Don't you dare!"   :-D  She was sitting right beside me, so I thought I had already pushed the envelope.  :-\  Maybe if someone else visits Mack's they could ask for extra sauce to see if there might be olive oil added.

I have to look over my pictures and see if I can see any containers of olive oil.  It was dark, so I need to magnify those pictures.  I almost lost my camera in the process.  It dropped into the bin.  Luckily I could retrieve it, by digging.  That would have been a real mess, if I had lost the camera.   8)

I have no idea what spectral analysis is. 

Norma


Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 10, 2010, 07:57:36 PM
Norma,

What I read was olive juice, not olive oil. Presumably the olives would come in a container in a liquid of some sort, and that liquid would be added to the pizza sauce if the rumors are true. I was joking about the analysis, which would tell us what is in the sauce, including olive juice.

I agree that having a sample of the Mack's sauce would come in handy, not only to try to identify the herbs and any other ingredients but also to try to replicate the consistency.

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 10, 2010, 08:50:30 PM
Worth a read. Interesting comparisons:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2006/08/in_wildwood_new_jersey_its_macks_vs_sams.html

It mentions the cheeses and sauce to cheese ratios.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 10, 2010, 09:39:34 PM
Worth a read. Interesting comparisons:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2006/08/in_wildwood_new_jersey_its_macks_vs_sams.html

It mentions the cheeses and sauce to cheese ratios.

Mike,

Great find!  ;D  I also watched at Sam's, but didn't try a slice.  I should have.  ::) Sam's pizza to me looked like any ordinary pizza NY slice pizza I had many times in New York.  If I would have tried a slice then I would have known.  LOL  I don't know what you will think of the Mack's pizza you will be trying, but to me it is something different.  That is why I am trying to recreate it. 

Hopefully you will also like this style of pizza. 

Thanks for the link,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2010, 11:23:12 AM
Norma,

I recently found a photo of a Mack's pizza slice, at http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/314314.JPG, where the photo shows the presence of a lot of herbs, most likely including oregano. From what I can tell, your photos do not show that amount of herbs in the sauce. Is it possible that there are oregano shakers on the tables at Mack's?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: sear on May 11, 2010, 12:52:56 PM
Norma,

I recently found a photo of a Mack's pizza slice, at http://www.crazyaboutwildwood.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/webassets/314314.JPG, where the photo shows the presence of a lot of herbs, most likely including oregano. From what I can tell, your photos do not show that amount of herbs in the sauce. Is it possible that there are oregano shakers on the tables at Mack's?

Peter

in that photo on empty table are red peper, garlic, and some herb shaker (in addition to salt and pepper)  ;D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 11, 2010, 01:03:18 PM
James,

Good eye. I had noticed the other table but could only identify the salt and pepper shakers. But when I magnified the photo by 400%, I could see three other shakers. One of them looks like it might contain oregano and/or other herbs. Norma may have noticed the shakers and may be able to tell us what is in them.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jasonm2674 on May 11, 2010, 08:23:26 PM
Wow Norma,

awesome pics.  I am a little stunned by the thickness of that crust.  It has been forever since I was there so I could very well be remembering something else.  You have a picture of a macs corner stand.  Do they have three on the boardwalk ?  I'm thinking ocean city.  They have a store that is open year round and another within a couple of blocks that is only open in the summers.  The one part of the boardwalk that had the dough making operation underneath it was nearer to the store that closes in winter.

I vividly remember walking up the end of the street, on the left below the boardwalk was the dough area and then up to the boardwalk and turning left to get to the store a short ways down.

That's awesome the information you guys have put together I think I may have to take a weekend and drive out there just to have some :)

Keep up the good work!!!


EDIT -   The oven that is in those pictures is I believe an old LA version of rotoflex.  That is an old oven, probably late 1960's or mid 70's.  It has been retrofitted.  The large square metal plate behind the digital readout is about the size of the original thermostat control those ovens had.  I know that the store's we had visited had new ovens installed that did not have the brickwork on them.

WOW it's been so long !  Thanks for the memory recall along with all of this as well :)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 11, 2010, 10:06:00 PM
Peter,

Thanks for finding the picture of the slice with more added oregano or herbs. :)  When we ate the slices of Mackís pizza over the weekend there wasnít that much herbs on the slices or even the parbaked pie we bought home. 

I didnít notice any shakers at the counter where we ate the slices of pizza.  Maybe I was just trying to watch what they were doing and I might have missed them.  I was trying to watch the piemen, talk to them, and also trying to inspect the pizza I was eating, so my brain might not have been able to take everything in. 

Steve and I shared two slices of the parbaked Mackís pizza today.  We baked one slice on the deck in the bottom of my oven and one slice on a screen in the top of the oven.  The first 3 pictures are of the slice baked on the deck in the bottom of my oven.  This sure didnít taste as good as when the pies are just made or even when my daughter and I reheated in the microwave.  The cheese still tasted good, but the crust didnít have any more rise.  Steve thought the cheese tasted like American cheese added.  After I thought about it, I too, thought the cheese tasted something like a good American cheese.  Steve also commented that the slices tasted like a grilled cheese sandwich.  The second slice that was baked on the screen turned out better, but still wasnít like a Mackís pizza.  I didnít take any pictures of the second slice.  The last picture is the baked skin.  We tried to analyze if other spices were added and the only thing we came up with was there was probably pepper added.  There were some small pieces that tasted like pepper.  The other herb, was oregano in our opinion.

We also tried to open one of the dough balls.  It was hard to open and did want to rip.  We just baked the skin on the deck with no toppings.  I think the dough was overfermented.  We both did smell it after it baked and to us really smelled like fresh bread.  We didnít eat any though. 

Norma

jasonm2674,

Thanks for saying you like the pictures.  :)  There are only two Mackís in Wildwood now.  The place I think that is making the dough is the one at Wildwood Crest.  I didnít see any evidence that they were making the dough at the Mackís in the center of the boardwalk.  The oven at the Mackís in Wildwood Crest does have a thermostat that you can see the dial.  I didnít eat any pizza at that Mackís.  I just looked inside and around that building. 

Youíre welcome for the memory recall.  I also had the memory revisited.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 09:18:48 AM
Since this thread is about Mackís pizza, the shore and boardwalk, I thought I would include a picture under the boardwalk.  This song is titled ďUnder the BoardwalkĒ, by the Drifters.  The song ďUnder the BoardwalkĒ was popular in the 60's.  Under the boardwalk in Wildwood many years ago, the spaces for the boards were farther apart.  My brother and I went under the boardwalk many times searching for money.  We did find money many times.

Since Wildwood was know as a Doo Wop town for many years, I thought I would include this in this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPoPMXY4Yyo

And of course who could forget the song I had posted before ďWildwood DaysĒ, by Bobby Rydell.  I sure just had one of those ďWildwood NightsĒ, this past weekend. This video shows different views of Wildwood and included in this video is a  picture of Mackís pizza business almost at the end of the video.  Since spring will soon be gone and summer is comin on, in my opinion this song is fitting for this thread.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfUK2g5hf2U

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 02:53:13 PM
Okay, so here's my contribution to the Mack pie cloning project.

I have to say that Peter's formula was great. However, since I don't have anything to compare it to - never had a Mack's pie in my life - I will just describe the characteristics of the crust and see what the feedback is from those who had a Mack pie before and hopefully it came close...

I think the crust had all the features of a good NY street slice crust. It was crunchy yet chewy, was easily folded and had a nice droop. The two pies I made were baked at around 565įF for roughly 7 mins. As for the cheese, I used 8oz of the "O" organics brand sharp white cheddar cheese and 4oz mozzarella cheese of the Lucerne brand (both Safeway brands). They cheeses blended in very nicely without producing too much grease. It was a surprisingly tasteful combo.

For the sauce, I used my own recipe because I don't really know what type of sauce or ingredients Mack uses. Overall, I think the formula Peter posted is dead on for a great NY-style pizza. But since I like a bit more crunch in mine I might reduce the amount of oil that used. I also noted the difference between the olive oil that I normally use in my doughs and the vegetable oil.

For the oil I used the Smart Balance brand, which has a blend of canola, soy and olive oils, plus some healthy Omega 3's...something for the conscience.  ;)

Anyway, I might tinker around with Peter's formula just a little bit and see what I can come up with. I will either post the findings here or in my NY-style project thread.


Norma,

In pic # 5712 & 5714 you can see how close Peter came with his formula when you compare the crust to the pics you posted of the slice you bought at Mack's. It is very close.

The first pie was a plain cheese and the second a simple mushroom.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 02:54:37 PM
Second set of pics...

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 02:55:25 PM
And the rest...
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2010, 03:54:35 PM
Mike,

Those pizzas look terrific. Were they 14" pizzas with KABF/Bob's Red Mill VWG, and 0.50% IDY, one day of fermentation, and baked only on a stone and without using the broiler element? And how did the crusts taste?

From what I have read, a Mack's pizza can look like a NY style but is sometimes described as having a more cracker-like rim. Norma and others who have had the Mack's pizzas will better be able to describe the characteristics of a basic Mack's crust. A Mack's pizza only uses a white cheddar cheese and is supposed to be so oily that the fat drips/rolls of of a slice when held vertically.

Thanks again for pitching in.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 04:42:02 PM
Mike,

I really want to thank you for going along with this experiment.  ;D I appreciate that you are willing to try this without ever tasting a Mackís pizza. So how did you like the Mackís pizza?  Your pies look delicious.  Wish I could have been there to taste them.  Could you twirl this pie and how did the dough handle?  I am anxious to make another dough and try out Peterís formula.  I am still working on the left over parbaked Mackís pizza.  It sure doesnít taste like the Mackís when fresh.  I had asked if they sell dough balls and the pieman said no, but they do sell parbaked that would taste the same when rebaked.  I should have just purchased a fully baked pizza, because in my opinion so far, the parbaked isnít good. 

I agree with you that Peterís pie at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97757.html#msg97757 really looked like a real Mackís pizza.  I kept looking at Peterís pie different times.  Since he gives such good detailed instructions, I think anyone can try a Mackís clone, by reading over his instructions and using his formula.

Norma

Peter,

The Mackís crust is different from a NY style pizza.  In my opinion the crust is more soft with a little crunch.  That is what is tough to achieve.  I think ERASMO also commented on the crust somewhere in this thread.  He eats Mackís pizza more than I can.  Maybe he will also comment on this.  I canít find where he commented on the crust.  I think he commented that the crust is more pastry like.  He has been a great help in finding out what kind of sauce Mackís uses and also being able to describe how the pies are.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 04:58:55 PM
Mike,

Those pizzas look terrific. Were they 14" pizzas with KABF/Bob's Red Mill VWG, and 0.50% IDY, one day of fermentation, and baked only on a stone and without using the broiler element? And how did the crusts taste?

From what I have read, a Mack's pizza can look like a NY style but is sometimes described as having a more cracker-like rim. Norma and others who have had the Mack's pizzas will better be able to describe the characteristics of a basic Mack's crust. A Mack's pizza only uses a white cheddar cheese and is supposed to be so oily that the fat drips/rolls of of a slice when held vertically.

Thanks again for pitching in.

Peter

Peter,

Thank you. No need to thank me for chipping in. You know I'm always up for some pizza projects  ;D But I appreciate it.

I was amazed how well they turned out but I wish I'd have something to compare it to.

Anyway, yes they were 14" pies, with a KABF/Bob's VWG mix, 24hr fermentation (cold, bulk) with a warm-up time of two hours at room temp, baked on my stone at the lowest rack and no broiler this time. The broiler wasn't necessary and I also left it out intentionally because I wanted to achieve a more Stree-slice look rather than an overly charred or browned crust. I think the two pies are somewhere in the middle, though.

The crust was anything like a cracker crust or even remotely crackery. It had a really nice crunch to it but was yet chewy and, imho, has great potential if we can find out more about Mack's pies, sauce ingredients, etc.


Norma,

My pleasure.

It was the first time, regarding the crust, where I felt it was extremely close to NY/NJ style. It could have been the higher amount of oil the formula asked for compared to what I normally use. I don't go much higher than 2% usually, and I use olive oil. But...I could imagine if one would lower the amount of oil down to maybe 2.5% and up the hydration to maybe 59% it could come closer to the real thing.

But then again, I got nothing to compare it to so we all really rely on you for now... ;D

I'll definitely play around with it some more.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 05:05:50 PM
I forgot to mention that the one thing that bugged me a little about the pizzas was the puffiness of the outer rim (cornicione). I was hoping for a less puffy one and more in line with the NJ Boardwalk style.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 05:15:55 PM

But then again, I got nothing to compare it to so we all really rely on you for now... ;D

I'll definitely play around with it some more.

Mike,

If you watch in the videos how Mack's piemen handle the dough, they really press the whole dough ball out hard with their fingers, before opening the dough. I had asked the one pieman after I took the video, if his hands don't get tired from doing that all day and he said sometimes they do.  :-D  I think you would need strong hands to be able to do that all day. I think that is why the crust is so flat, without many voids.

ERASMO goes to eat Mack's pizza more than I can.  He knows more about the crust than I do.  His help has been great.  :)

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2010, 05:19:55 PM
I forgot to mention that the one thing that bugged me a little about the pizzas was the puffiness of the outer rim (cornicione). I was hoping for a less puffy one and more in line with the NJ Boardwalk style.

Mike,

It is possible that the amount of yeast you used, 0.50% IDY, was responsible for the taller rim because of greater gas production. I last used only 0.20% for a 3-day cold fermentation and I intentionally pressed the outer edge of the skin flat so that I would minimize the height of the rim when baked, just as I saw in the video that Norma referenced, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc. In your case, were there a lot of bubbles in the dough balls as they tempered at room temperature or in the skins as you were stretching them out to the final size (14")?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 05:27:10 PM
Norma,

Well, then we have to put Erasmo on the spot, don't we?  ;D


Peter,

No bubbles in the dough balls but there were a few bubbles in the skins but I not a whole lot. I was already thinking to lower the amount of yeast somewhat for a 24hr cold-rise in my next batch, to maybe 0.3%.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 05:30:15 PM
Mike,

Here is the other video I posted before, to show how hard they press out the dough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbZWoq_Kz3o

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 12, 2010, 05:33:46 PM
They also spin it, something I can't do due to a low kitchen ceiling.

But I will try to do it as close as the guy in the video next time.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Matthew on May 12, 2010, 06:06:52 PM
They also spin it, something I can't do due to a low kitchen ceiling.

But I will try to do it as close as the guy in the video next time.

Mike,
Nothing wrong with a Rosette made from pizza dough.  If the dough sticks to the ceiling just let it harden then prime & paint. :-D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 12, 2010, 07:03:46 PM
On the crust it had a drier crackery crispy cornicione not chewy like the traditional new york style.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 12, 2010, 08:42:03 PM
I am trying to narrow down the distributors Mack's  and Mack and Mancos might be using to get all their products for making their pizzas.  Right now, I have narrowed them down to three, until I call them and find out if they carry the Gangi sauce, Kryol flour, and white cheddar. 

After looking though the feature at PMQ that Peter supplied  http://www.pmq.com/distributors/, I think I will call these places in the next few days.  They seem like they would be the logical suppliers for Mack's, but I can't be sure.  They all seem to be in the New Jersey area and some are not to far from Ocean City, NJ and Wildwood, NJ.

http://www.vesuviofoods.com/products.html

http://www.ferrarofoods.com/

http://www.brokeroftheyear.com/

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 13, 2010, 09:55:52 AM
Another though on the crust.  Would the dough act differently when cooked in the rotoflex oven with out stones compared to on the pizza stone?  I would think stone would case more oven spring and bubbles than just a metal floor.  Just a thought.  I am no expert.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2010, 12:24:55 PM

ERASMO,

I am not an expert on Roto-Flex ovens, but did look how they operate.  It seems like they can bake on the metal deck or with a stone on the deck.  They are more for high volume pizza businesses that need to be able to produce many pies in a short time. 

http://www.rotoflexoven.com/EXPAGES/gallery.asp

Tony Gemignani explains how to use a Roto- Flex oven in this video.  He says the pizza can be baked on the metal shelf or on a stone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6stco20IElc

Another short video about Roto-Flex ovens

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1WP_AfhQPI

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on May 13, 2010, 12:28:16 PM
Thanks for that Norma.  Very Interesting.

I was going to preheat a cookie sheet in the oven and try baking a pizza on that instead of my stone to see what it does to oven spring.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 13, 2010, 12:46:07 PM
You will also note toward the end of the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc that one of the workers shifts the position of a pizza from one level of the Roto-Flex oven to a higher one. It's hard to know without inquiring whether that is done with all pizzas or whether it is done based on the judgment of the worker and the number of pizzas in the oven at the time.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2010, 12:59:07 PM
You will also note toward the end of the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc that one of the workers shifts the position of a pizza from one level of the Roto-Flex oven to a higher one. It's hard to know without inquiring whether that is done with all pizzas or whether it is done based on the judgment of the worker and the number of pizzas in the oven at the time.

Peter

ERASMO,

Maybe when you are able to visit Mack's pizza again, you can watch to see if they shift the positions of their pizzas.  When I was there, I didn't see them doing that.  I don't know if it was because they weren't very busy or not.   :-\

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2010, 04:13:23 PM
I called the 3 places I thought could be a possibility for distributors at the Jersey shore. The B&S distributors is a cheese broker, but the lady I talked to said she would have distributors call me that deliver in the area between Stone Harbor and Cape May. Minimum delivery of cheese from B&S  is 1,000 lbs.

Ferraro Foods does deliver to those locations, but doesnít carry Kyrol flour or Gangi Sauce They carried Packer mild white cheddar. 

Vesuvio Foods does deliver to those locations, also.  They said they stock 7,000 items, ranging from pizza ovens to food products.  They said they do carry Kyrol flour, different brands of mild white cheddar, including Sommer Maid which is their most popular sellers, and I  am not sure about the Gangi Sauce.  I did talk to one of the managers and when I asked him about the Gangi Sauce he said they carried Super Dolce. I knew this was a Stanilaus product.  I said I wanted to see if they carried Gangi Supreme and then he said they do carry that brand.  I am not to sure of this because when I went on their website, it doesnít show they carry the Gangi Surpreme in the drop down menu.  They also deliver in my area, but you need a 500.00 minimum order.  When I told the manger I wanted to use some mild white cheddar on my pizzas, he couldnít believe I wanted to use mild white cheddar on a pizza.  I told him I knew places at the shore that did use all mild white cheddar on their pizzas and he said they were in the minority.  He asked me if I was Italian.  When I said no, he was wondering how I knew about opening a pizza shop. LOL He said he would send a sales rep to my market stand to give me free samples.  Maybe I will get lucky with some cheese.

To sum these calls up, I donít really know if the Vesuvio Foods is a place that could be delivering to Macks or not, but the rest of them probably wouldnít be.

I told each place I was looking for a place at the shore to open a pizzeria for my son, in the next year. My son lives in Florida.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on May 13, 2010, 10:09:02 PM
Mike,
Nothing wrong with a Rosette made from pizza dough.  If the dough sticks to the ceiling just let it harden then prime & paint. :-D

What color would you suggest, Sir?  ;D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 13, 2010, 10:39:51 PM
Mike,

You can wait for Mattís response, but while you wait you can watch this video on throwing the dough.  You really donít have to throw it that high.  The throwing demo is at the end of this video.  Starts around 2:35.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wteq8G3q1zI

I like your new avatar..LOL..quite colorful.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Matthew on May 14, 2010, 05:46:00 AM
What color would you suggest, Sir?  ;D

Personally, I'd paint it to look like a pizza; but that's just me.   ;D
Keep making those awesome pies bro!

Matt
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2010, 04:54:52 PM
I mixed another Mackís clone dough today at market.  Five dough balls were made.  I mixed the same way as the last time using the same general lines discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33251.html#msg33251

Kyrol flour was used for this dough. Since scott r posted that they might be using a fairly long mix, this dough was mixed longer. From the beginning to end, the mix time was 25 minutes.  The oil was added last and it really took a long time for the oil to incorporate into the dough.

This is a video I took near the end of the mix.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7ZpaOueAeQ

The next four pictures are of the finished dough temperature, how dough looked when cut, dough balls balled, and one finished dough ball. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 14, 2010, 06:43:03 PM
Norma, I just wanted to point out that after your recent descriptions of the crust you had there, and also looking at the color of the dough there, I think macs may be using a very large percentage of oil in the dough.    IF this one doesn't work out for you try upping that oil even more.   

Also, I know the theory about adding the oil later in the mix, but I have found that it doesn't make a difference and can often force me to mix even longer than I want to.   I think I remember fellow forum member November commenting once on how oil at the beginning is fine, but I can't remember the details.    That oil later is a Lehmann thing, and although I have the highest respect for him there are just some things he teaches that dont always add up when I try and try them in practice.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 07:41:34 PM
scott r,

You have a good memory. I remember November's post on the matter of when to incorporate the oil in the dough (see Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4580.msg38695.html#msg38695). His reply led me to run a test on the timing of the oil inclusion, which I discussed at Reply 57 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40092.html#msg40092. As noted there, I did not see any impairment of the hydration of the dough by adding the oil up front. I sometimes still experiment with the late addition of oil, just to have more tests to study. In general, I have found that when the amount of oil is low, say, 1% for a typical Lehmann dough, I could safely add the oil later in the process without any difficulty. But it the amount of oil gets to several percent, adding the oil later becomes more difficult and require longer kneading and, with my KitchenAid stand mixer, occasional intervention to help incorporate the oil by hand. Experiences like that led me to add the oil up front when I made the Papa John's clone doughs with over 7% oil. For the recent Mack clone doughs, I added the oil up front simply because I was using 3% oil.

I have never made a big issue of Tom Lehmann's position on this point because he was speaking in relation to the use of commercial mixers and I was working with a basic KitchenAid home stand mixer with a C-hook. It seemed possible to me that the commercial situation was different than mine.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2010, 08:09:10 PM
scott r,

This is the formula I used to mix the dough today.  The formula does have 3% oil.  I used a blend of Canola & Soybean, because that is what I had at market.  After I used these dough balls up, what percentage of oil do you advise to use?  I will use the search and look where November might have mentioned how to mix the dough.  I was surprised how soft the dough became after mixing, with the lower hydration. Mackís dough did look moist, before they placed them in the flour. Do you also have any idea what kind of oil I should use?  Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mackís and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldnít imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.  I appreciate your advise.

16" pizza

Flour (100%):                       1360.96 g  |  48.01 oz | 3 lbs
Water (57%):                         775.74 g  |  27.36 oz | 1.71 lbs
IDY (0.20%):                              2.72 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.9 tsp | 0.3 tbsp
Salt (2%):                            27.22 g | 0.96 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.67 tsp | 1.89 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):    40.83 g | 1.44 oz | 0.09 lbs | 8.99 tsp | 3 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):                            20.41 g | 0.72 oz | 0.05 lbs | 5.12 tsp | 1.71 tbsp
Total (163.7%):                        2227.89 g | 78.59 oz | 4.91 lbs | TF = 0.07817
Single Ball:                  445.58 g | 15.72 oz | 0.98 lbs
               
Peter,

Do you have any other ideas what could be a formula for this Mackís pie?  When November posted the more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.  Did you find in other experiments this to be true?  It will take me awhile to understand this.  I never did any experiments along those lines. When you made your Mackís clone the last time, what did you dough look like?  Maybe I should have added the oil up front, but my finished dough temperature was okay.  Any thoughts about how I should go about this the next time?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 08:35:16 PM
I will use the search and look where November might have mentioned how to mix the dough.

Norma,

You can read how November makes his dough at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572/topicseen.html#msg42572.

Quote
Peter,

Do you have any other ideas what could be a formula for this Mackís pie?  When November posted the more oil, the less water escapes the dough.  The less oil, the less extensible and more tough the dough is.  Did you find in other experiments this to be true?  It will take me awhile to understand this.  I never did any experiments along those lines. When you made your Mackís clone the last time, what did you dough look like?  Maybe I should have added the oil up front, but my finished dough temperature was okay.  Any thoughts about how I should go about this the next time?

As for possible things to try with a Mack clone dough, I mentioned before about the possibility of adding more oil to get the type of extensibility of the dough that I saw in the videos. At some point, that is something that might be worth trying. What November posted about the role of oil in dough, as you mentioned in the material quoted above, is something that I observe frequently. I observed it all the time with the Papa John clone doughs that I made. When I made the last Mack's clone dough, with the combination of food processor and KitchenAid stand mixer, the dough was firm yet smooth. It was not as soft or as malleable as a Papa John's dough clone, because that clone dough had over 7% oil. The hydration for the clone doughs was similar to what I used for the last Mack's clone dough.

Peter




Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 08:56:20 PM
Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mackís and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldnít imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.

Norma,

As you know, I based most of what I have done on this project on the YouTube video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc. As I viewed the video, I tried to get a measure of the size and weight of dough balls. For example, I looked at the dough balls (flattened) in the sheet pans and it looked like two flattened dough balls side by side filled the pan in the smaller dimension. I also looked at the size of the pizza maker's hands relative to the flattened dough balls. I looked at the thickness of the flattened dough balls as they were being shaped. After making a couple of the Mack's clones (one with all-purpose flour and the other with KABF/VWG), I came to the conclusion, right or not, that the dough balls I made looked and felt too large. The last Mack's clone dough I made looked and felt closer to what I saw in the video. scott r may have his own impressions of dough ball weight based on his review of the video and his personal experience.

I think I should have a better feel for dough ball weight after I make the next Mack's clone pizza with more cheese (and possibly more sauce), and weigh the pizza both unbaked and baked to get an idea as to the weight loss during baking. You already told us what the cooled par-baked 18" Mack's pizza weighed. I don't think a freshly baked Mack's pizza should weight a great deal more than the par-baked one.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 14, 2010, 09:15:42 PM
After I used these dough balls up, what percentage of oil do you advise to use? 
Norma, with your more recent descriptions of the crust and the yellow color I saw in a few pic/videos, my guess is that it could be anywhere in the 3-8%  range.   If you see yellow, you know there is a lot of oil in there!  Notice that in pictures even your dough balls with 3% look pure white.   

Do you also have any idea what kind of oil I should use?
 
Most pizzerias tend to use an olive oil/canola oil blend.   Macks, is using a high end flour and cheese, however, so it is possible that they are using pure olive oil.  That is what I use and recommend, but I tend to go with a much smaller amount of oil or none at all.     I suppose if I were using 7% like Macks could be doing, I would probably save my money and do an olive/canola blend. 

Since this dough was for 16" pizzas at the thickness factor of 0.07817, and I weighed a single dough ball out at 0.98 lbs, I was wondering when I looked at the dough balls how small there were.  When I went to Mackís and saw their dough balls, they looked so much larger.  I know they were for 18" pizzas, but couldnít imagine how much more dough they might be using for one pie.  Mine looked tiny in comparison.  I appreciate your advise.

I would up the thickness factor.   Those look more like 750 gram dough balls to me, but I could be totally wrong.   

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on May 14, 2010, 09:20:46 PM
scott r,
But it the amount of oil gets to several percent, adding the oil later becomes more difficult and require longer kneading and, with my KitchenAid stand mixer, occasional intervention to help incorporate the oil by hand. Experiences like that led me to add the oil up front when I made the Papa John's clone doughs with over 7% oil. For the recent Mack clone doughs, I added the oil up front simply because I was using 3% oil.

I have never made a big issue of Tom Lehmann's position on this point because he was speaking in relation to the use of commercial mixers and I was working with a basic KitchenAid home stand mixer with a C-hook. It seemed possible to me that the commercial situation was different than mine.

Peter

Peter, commercial mixers really don't work much differently than a kitchen aid in this situation.   You have to play the same sorts of games or just wait it out, which can take a really long time.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2010, 09:57:13 PM
Peter,

Thank you for finding the link where November posted about mixing the dough.  That is interesting.  I never mixed dough that way before.

Since you posted that your dough was firm, yet smooth in your last Mackís clone dough, I now am wondering what different results there were since I use the commercial mixer and mixed in a different way than you did.  The dough I made today seemed as soft as the last Mackís clone dough I made.  It made me wonder how this could be with the lower hydration.  I havenít tried too many experiments with dough.

If we ever come close to the dough Mackís is using, then I will also try 18" pizzas.  I donít have a 18" screen here at home, so I would have to bake the pies at market or either purchase a screen.  After looking at my dough today and then thinking back to last weekend, my dough looks so small. 

I am either going to try a Mackís pizza here at home tomorrow or Sunday.  Should be interesting.  I left one dough ball in the deli case at market and brought 4 dough balls home.  I will freeze 3 of the dough balls after I watch how much the poppy seeds expand.

Thanks for your help,

Norma

scott r,

I know my dough balls looked pure white.  When I looked at the dough balls last weekend at Mackís they werenít really yellow, but more then the dough I made today. 

Maybe for the next experiment I will purchase some olive oil/canola blend.  You ideas on the weight of their dough balls are interesting.

I probably will experiment with a different mixing procedure the next time.  I guess the amount of oil will have to be determined.

Thanks for you advise,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2010, 10:14:38 PM
After thinking about the color of the dough balls made today, I took one out of the refrigerator.  I only used my overhead light at market today. I am allowed to turn on the market lights, but want to save their power.  When all the other lights are out at market, it is very dark around my stand.  When I took those pictures this afternoon, I then wondered now what they really look like.  Here is one picture of what one dough ball looks like, now.  It does appear to be more yellow than the pictures I took today at market.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 14, 2010, 10:35:34 PM
Norma,

I used soybean oil for my Mack's clone doughs mainly because it seemed to me that that might be something that a boardwalk pizzeria with large volume might do. It would be cheaper than using olive oil and customers--and especially tourists who may never make a return visit to Mack's--might not be looking for an artisan type pie anyway. If I used olive oil, it might be a pomace olive oil, which is less costly than the better olive oils, but still with good flavor. Or, as scott r said, I might use an olive oil blend. The answer perhaps lies in tradition and custom as balanced against the desire to maximize profits without losing the locals and regulars.

On the matter of dough ball weight, the total numbers will have to add up. In Reply 220, you mentioned that the 18" (17" with shrinkage) par-baked Mack's pizza weighed 2lb. 2 oz. (34 ounces). The unbaked pizza obviously weighed more than that but maybe by not a lot. A 750-gram dough ball is almost 26.5 ounces. That doesn't leave a lot of weight for the cheese and sauce. That's why it becomes necessary to get pre-baked and baked weights, to see what the losses are during baking. Even then, there can be differences because home ovens are not the same as commercial ovens like the one used at Mack's.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 14, 2010, 11:12:23 PM
Peter,

All depending on how this experiment goes, I might add some olive oil I have at market with the blend I used today.  Maybe that is another product that might come up if someone might see cans or containers near Mackís.  I might be going to Mackís another time in the next month.  I used olive oil in my regular dough, but have heard many other pizzerias use the pomace olive oil. 

I can understand that the numbers have to add up and can see your reasoning for the dough weights, you are now using.  I will weigh my pie before the pie is baked and after it is baked.  I wonít be able to figure out the numbers, because I am not that good with numbers.  You are going about figuring that out in the right way, because you are baking a 18" pie.  I am new to this reverse-engineering, so this whole process will teach me a lot.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 15, 2010, 07:35:29 AM
I was still wondering about the color of the Mackís clone dough I made yesterday.  :-\  I took the one dough ball that I had taken a picture of last night, and took it outside this morning, where there isnít any artificial light.  This is a picture taken this morning.  To my eyes, it does appear to have a more yellow color than when taken at market. With three pictures taken of this one dough ball, it goes to show, there are 3 different colors when taking pictures.  I did use the same setting on my camera to take all three pictures.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 11:28:20 AM
Peter,

I plan on using a dough ball today to try to make a clone Mackís pizza.  I just wanted to ask you a question.  Since I already know the weight of the dough ball and am going to measure the sauce and cheese when I dress the pie, do I need to actually weigh the whole pizza when dressed before baking?  If I do need to weigh this pie before baking, how do you go about that?

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2010, 12:01:17 PM
I just wanted to ask you a question.  Since I already know the weight of the dough ball and am going to measure the sauce and cheese when I dress the pie, do I need to actually weigh the whole pizza when dressed before baking?  If I do need to weigh this pie before baking, how do you go about that?

Norma,

If you know how much dough, cheese and sauce you plan to use, and those values are fixed, you can just add the numbers together to get the total weight. That should be close enough. You could also put your peel on the scale, tare it out, and then add the dough skin, cheese, sauce, and more cheese in sequence. That will give you another reading for the total dough weight. However, that method might be difficult to do with your scale because the peel/pizza will most likely block out the display and make it difficult for you to read it. In my case, since I am using a pizza screen, I am able to maneuver it to see my display. I also often don't know how much cheese or sauce I am going to use until I actually place them on the pizza skin. I add them in succession and use the tare feature after each addition. I note the weight of each item added to the pizza. As a final check, I will weight the total weight of the screen and unbaked pizza and subtract the weight of the screen.

To weigh the baked pizza, I would put something on your scale, like a cooling rack or pizza screen, tare out its weight, and add the baked pizza on the rack to get its weight. My scale has a glass platform so I have to be careful about putting a very hot pizza on it. Again, in your case, you may have to use something tall on your scale to be able to see the display.

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 12:20:39 PM
Peter,

Thanks for your advise.  I will try to get the exact weights.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 05:12:34 PM
I tried another Mackís clone today.  I almost needed to call Forum Control again, because there were some problems.  :o  More on that later.

I let the dough sit out at room temperature for 3 hrs.  The ambient temperature in my kitchen was 72 degrees F.  I forgot to bring my infrared thermometer home from market, so I didnít have any way of telling what the accurate temperature of my oven was.  If I had to guess it was somewhere around 500 degrees F.  The oven was heated for 1 Ĺ hrs.  The pie was baked on the top rack on the 16" pizza stone. 

I weighed the sauce and cheese.  I first weighed the sauce and the weight was 7 oz.  I decided after I was dressing the pie that it didnít seem like enough of sauce, so I weighed out another 1 oz.  The cheese was weighed at 9 oz.  I didnít weigh the unbaked pie, because I then knew what weighs I had used.  I didnít add up the weighs at this time. The baked pie weighed 1 lb. 109 oz.

I did remember to bring home a bigger peel.  When I went to load the pie into the oven, somehow the pie slide off the peel and the edge went off the stone, again and it just stuck there.  Well I knew I was going to have another mess.  This mess was bigger than the last mess.  That is when I thought I needed to call Forum Control..Help!!!!  :-D  Well, after baking the pie for a little while the cheese and sauce went off the edge and the smoke alarms kept going off.  I did try to put towels over them, but had to watch the pie.  This even continued after I removed the pie from the oven for a little while.  This pie took a little over 5 minutes to bake.

On the pictures it can be seen where the crust went off the stone a little on two sides.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 05:14:07 PM
continued pictures
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 05:15:38 PM
continued pictures
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 05:16:25 PM
last two pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2010, 05:44:59 PM
Norma,

I also took another stab at a Mackís clone dough/pizza, fortunately without any mishaps. The main objective was to try to get a handle on the relative weights of dough, cheese and sauce. In some respects, I think I moved one step forward but fell back two, as I will discuss more fully below.

The starting point for the latest dough formulation was to assume that I needed a lot more cheese and sauce than I had been using based on what you reported from your recent visit to Mackís and also my estimates of dough, cheese and sauce weights. That meant I would not need as much dough. So, with these considerations in mind, I decided to use a 19.5-ounce dough ball, around 12 ounces of white cheddar cheese, and about 7.5 ounces of pizza sauce. The 19.5-ounce dough ball placed it in between the last two Mackís clone dough balls I made.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html, I came up with the following dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (57.5%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2.5%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (163.7%):
341.08 g  |  12.03 oz | 0.75 lbs
196.12 g  |  6.92 oz | 0.43 lbs
0.68 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.23 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
6.82 g | 0.24 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.22 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
8.53 g | 0.3 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.88 tsp | 0.63 tbsp
5.12 g | 0.18 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.28 tsp | 0.43 tbsp
558.35 g | 19.69 oz | 1.23 lbs | TF = 0.0773963
Note: Dough for a single 18Ē pizza; nominal thickness factor = 0.07663; bowl residue compensation = 1%
*The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 332.85 grams (11.74 ounces) KABF and 8.23 grams (0.29 ounces) Hodgson Mill VWG (2 ĺ t.)

I prepared the dough in the same manner as the last Mackís clone dough, using my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor (with the plastic blade) and my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. That combination once again did a nice job of making the dough. I took note of the color of the final dough ball and it was a distinctly light yellow. However, it should be noted that the KABF I was using is not a bleached flour. I suspect that the Kyrol high-gluten flour is.

The dough fermented in the refrigerator for about three days. Based on the poppy seeds I placed on the dough ball at the outset, the dough doubled between days 2 and 3 and was about 125% larger after 72 hours, at which time I used the dough, after a bench warm-up time of 1 ĺ hours at 75 degrees F, to make the pizza. As with the last Mackís clone dough, the dough wasnít as robust as the dough balls I saw in the videos, but, as before, I had no problems opening up the dough ball to 18Ē. I could stretch and toss the dough skin with relative ease.

I dressed the pizza on my 18Ē pizza screen as I did before but using the greater quantities of cheese and sauce. The cheese was all mild white cheddar cheese (the same O Organic brand cheese I used before). The sauce this time was a deeper red Contadina pizza sauce that I blended with an immersion stick blender to smooth out and to which I added a bit of water to make the sauce flow better out of my plastic squeeze bottle. The total unbaked pizza weight was just shy of 39 ounces. I baked the pizza on the 18Ē pizza screen on the second from the top oven rack position of my electric oven. After about 4 minutes, I shifted the pizza off of the screen (which I then removed from the oven) onto my 14Ē x 16Ē pizza stone that I had placed at the outset on the lowest oven rack position of my oven. The oven and stone had been preheated for over an hour at around 500-525 degrees F. The pizza stayed on the stone for about another three minutes. The baked pizza weighed 33.63 ounces. That represented a loss during baking of a bit less than 13.5%. In my preliminary calculations, I had assumed a likely loss of 10%, mainly because of the thinness of the dough skin and the large surface area of the pizza.

The photos below show the finished pizza. My overall impression is that there was too much cheese and sauce relative to the thinness and weight of the crust. That made the slices softer and more floppy than before. I also thought that the pizza was too cheesy and too saucy for my palate. I am at a disadvantage here since I have never had a Mackís pizza or slice to compare my pizza against. I also concluded that the cheddar cheese I was using, and have been using (including the extra sharp variety), breaks down too quickly during baking. That resulted in the release of a large amount of fat that dripped all over the place. I should add that I had used both the sauce and cheese cold out of the refrigerator in an effort to slow down the cooking of the cheese. Since that wasnít the solution, I may have to consider adding the second round of cheese right after I move the pizza off of the screen and before putting it onto the pizza stone. Otherwise, I would have to think about a longer bake at a lower oven temperature.

I thought the overall configuration of the pizza was in line with the other Mack clones I previously made. I pressed the rim of the skin to keep it as flat as possible and to minimize a lot of bubbles in the finished crust. The rim of the finished crust, however, did exhibit blistering. The flavor and color of the finished crust were fine from my perspective. It was the balance discussed above that seems to be out of order.

I will have to think some more on the latest results but my preliminary thinking is that I may have to use a larger dough ball and less cheese and less sauce. I still think the unbaked pizza target will be fairly close to 39 ounces using my oven and the way I baked the pizza. I think that 37 ounces may be the target I will next use, on the theory that the reconfigured dough weight will result in a pizza that will not sustain as much weight loss during baking as the pizza I made today.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2010, 05:51:13 PM
And the slice pics....

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 06:28:47 PM
Peter,

It is interesting that now you have the assumption that you might need less cheese.  In my opinion for the pie I baked today, I think I need to add more cheese.  Although the cheese was gooey, it didnít grease the plate like before.  I also have to rethink this.

My dough didnít expand as much as yours, using the poppy seed trick, but if you look at the picture of the opened skin, you will see tiny bubbles.  I wonder what is causing that.  I only cold-fermented for 2 days.  I really donít know if I should have left the dough ball warm-up that long, but I was working outside and wanted to get finished there.

I used the State brand of mild white cheddar.  It seems to perform well in the oven.  If I have calculated right, I think my pizza before it was baked was 26.10 oz.  Right after baking, I think the pie was 22.72 oz. In my opinion I think the amount of sauce I used was about right, but I canít be sure.  I am not good at figuring all these things out on paper.

I also pressed the skin just about like the piemen do.  My dough was also easy to handle and I did twirl it.  There werenít any tears or rips.  I think I might have stretched my skin too big, because then I had the oven issues.  I didnít measure the skin after I stretched it and put it on the peel.  This is a peel I donít use much and just keep it at market incase I need it.  Another consideration for the future.  Think to measure the skin.

Your Mackís clone looks delicious and I wish I could have tried a slice.  ;D  Did your pie get the little bit of crisp on the crust?  Did you just bake your pie today?  Do you use the marble on your table to open your dough ball?

My daughter and I both had two slices of the pie I made today and we think it tastes almost like a Mackís pie, but it is either the cheese or the sauce that something isnít right with.  The crust did taste like a Mackís pizza, but there is room for improvement.

I just bought another bag of the Kyrol flour and it is bleached. 

Any other ideas on how I what I can do to improve my pie?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 16, 2010, 07:09:51 PM
Norma,

I think this is one of those cases where, if I had my pizza on the Wildwood boardwalk, I would have either thrown the pizza under the boardwalk--where the Drifters are on their blankets with their baby's--or let the birds have it. Just kidding, but it was not as enjoyable as my last two Mack's clones  ;D.

You indicated that your unbaked pizza weight was 26.1 ounces. If your dough ball weight was 15.72 ounces, per Reply 284, that would have left 26.1-15.72= 10.38 ounces for the cheese and sauce. You indicated earlier that you used 8 ounces of sauce and 9 ounces of cheese. That would have come to a total of 32.72 ounces. Did I get something wrong?

I did bake the pie today. I used my kitchen table with the marble insert to get more natural light for the photos. I did not use the marble surface to work the dough. The crust of the finished pizza was a combination of chewy and a little crackery. The first of the three Mack clone pizzas with the KABF/VWG seemed to come closest to the descriptions I have read about the characteristics of the Mack's pizza. That is the pizza that was baked with the stone on the topmost oven rack position of my oven.

I don't have any suggestions at this time for you to consider. I am still thinking of how I will next proceed.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 16, 2010, 08:22:56 PM
Peter,

I feel the same way about the parbaked pizza I bought from Mackís, that you now feel about the pizza you just made.  It sure wasnít good, like Mackís pies are.  Even when reheated, in my opinion they are nothing special.  Mackís parbaked could have gone under the boardwalk with no problem.  :-D

You are at a distinct disadvantage, because you have never tasted a Mackís pizza.  I am glad you are going along and helping this thread.  You can only go by what others are saying or watching the videos.  The pie I made today in my home oven came closer to a Mackís pizza in my opinion. The bottom crust and the part crispy rim is something similar to Mackís pizza.

You are right about my calculations, again.  ;D I just added them up again and canít figure out how I came to that conclusion.  I did tare out both the metal peel, then the plastic container, before I placed the pizza on top.  I did have the baked pizza on the metal peel, then shifted it to the wood peel and then back to the metal peel.  I must have done something wrong somewhere along the process.  A bunch of my old friends took me out last night and were trying to get me drunk.  They didnít succeed, because I would only drink so much, but they had me dancing all evening and I am tired today. We were dancing to the Groove Dawgs.  http://www.thegroovedawgs.com/Dawg_House.html It was fun, but I am not used to that much excitement. That might be the cause or just faulty measurements, again.

I also have to rethink what my next plans are.  I might try a dough ball at market Tuesday.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 19, 2010, 08:55:04 PM
I didnít make another Mackís clone at market yesterday because I still had two slices to eat.  Also it was raining hard when I left for market and didnít want to carry more items than I had to.

I reheated two slices of the Mackís clone pizza, that were made on Sunday.  The taste of this Mackís clone reheated is decent.  It reminded me of the slices that were taken back to the place we were staying, and then reheated, when we went to visit Wildwood.  These two slices were better in my opinion than the Mackís pizza reheated.  But then I did reheat the Mackís slices in the microwave and reheated these slices in the oven on a stone. 

Pictures below are of the cold slices, heated slices and sea shells my daughter and I collected while we were visiting Wildwood.  I have a flower bed where I have placed sea shells from where ever I visited that had sea shells.  The bigger ones will go there and the little ones will go in house plants.  At least when I look at these sea shells it reminds me where I have visited and brings back good memories.  I have been collecting sea shells for many years. Many from Wildwood and Cape May.  I also now collect Victorian Yeast Trading Cards.  Since I have been making pizza, I started this new collection.  They are very interesting   Most are from the late 1800's and can be bought on ebay for cheap.  I usually wonít pay over 3.99 for one.  There is added shipping of about 1.60.  Most I won or purchased were .99 to 1.99.  If anyone one is interested in looking at some of these Victorian Trading Cards, just put yeast in the search at Ebay.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2010, 04:08:29 PM
The photos below show the results of my latest effort to make a Mackís clone pizza. The major differences from the last effort were the following: 1) the dough ball weight was increased to 21 ounces, 2) the hydration was lowered to 55%, 3) the oil (I used olive oil this time) was increased to 5%, 4) the dough was used after 91 hours of cold fermentation (I extended this period by using ice cold water in making the dough), and 5) I used about 12 ounces of cheese and about 7 ounces of sauce.

As discussed more fully below, I also used a pre-bake as a way of depositing the cheese so that the cheese wouldnít overcook and break down. This method was used because I do not have a source of white cheddar cheese that can withstand temperatures above about 500-525 degrees F in my electric oven without breaking down and releasing excessive amounts of fat. The cheese that I used this time was actually a blend of shredded extra sharp white cheddar cheese, mild white cheddar cheese, and low-moisture part-skim (LMPS) mozzarella cheese. The mild white cheddar cheese and the LMPS mozzarella cheese were leftover cheeses and were only used, together with the extra sharp white cheddar cheese, to get a total weight of 12 ounces. The ratio of these cheeses was 39/35/26. The sauce was just a plain sauce that I defrosted from a previous sauce recipe. Again, since I donít have the correct sauce, I was more interested in the weight at this point.

The dough formulation prepared using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html was as follows:

KABF/VWG Blend* (100%):
Water (55%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Olive Oil (5%):
Sugar (1.5%):
Total (163.7%):
367.32 g  |  12.96 oz | 0.81 lbs
202.03 g  |  7.13 oz | 0.45 lbs
0.73 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
7.35 g | 0.26 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.32 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
18.37 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.08 tsp | 1.36 tbsp
5.51 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.38 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
601.3 g | 21.21 oz | 1.33 lbs | TF = N/A
* The KABF/VWG Blend comprises 356.71 grams (12.58 ounces) of King Arthur Bread flour and 10.61 grams (0.37 ounces) of Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten (a bit more than 3 Ĺ t.), based on a total protein content of 14.2% and using the Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/
Note: Dough is for a single 18Ē inch pizza; the corresponding nominal thickness factor = 0.08252; bowl residue compensation = 1%

The dough was prepared the same way as the recent Mackís clone doughs, using the combination of my Cuisinart 14-cup capacity food processor and basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. Although the dough had more oil than the previous Mackís clone doughs, the color of the dough did not seem much yellower than the previous doughs. When time came to use the dough, it was tempered at room temperature for about 1 Ĺ hours. I found the dough ball easy to open and shape and stretch to 18Ē. It had a good balance of elasticity and extensibility although the skin did have a slight tendency to contract when I placed it onto my 18Ē pizza screen. However, I noted that the Mack's workers in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc also experienced that effect as well. Overall, I would say that the latest dough ball was the best of the ones I have made as part of this project from the standpoint of being able to work with it without it getting away from me or developing thin spots or other imperfections. It could be stretched easily and tossed.

The pizza was dressed in the same way as the previous Mack clone pizzas except that this time I divided the cheese blend into two portions. The first portion, which came to 5 ounces, was distributed on the skin as was done with my previous efforts. The pizza sauce was then swirled onto the pizza in a spiral pattern, using a squeeze bottle in the same manner as previously described. I then placed the pizza, on the 18Ē pizza screen, on the second from the top oven rack position of my oven. The oven, together with a 14Ē x 16Ē inch pizza stone on the lowest most oven rack position, had been preheated for an hour at about 500 degrees F. This was a bit lower oven temperature than I have been using because I wanted the pizza to bake more slowly and for a longer time so as to achieve a more crispy and cracker-like rim. The pizza on the upper rack position baked for about 4-5 minutes, or until the crust had set enough to allow me to remove the pizza off of the screen. However, rather than moving the partially-baked pizza directly onto the pizza stone, as I have done before, I removed the pizza entirely from the oven, quickly added the remaining cheese blend (7 ounces), and returned the pizza back to the oven and on top of the pizza stone. The pizza then baked for an additional 4 minutes or so, or until the rim of the pizza was browned and with the cheeses still intact (that is, not broken down).  

I should note at this point that the method I used to bake the pizza was primarily to keep the cheeses from breaking down and excessively oiling off. If someone has a white cheddar cheese that can tolerate a 500 degrees F oven temperature or higher without breaking down and excessively oiling off, as appears to be the case with the white cheddar cheese that Norma has been using, it should be possible to put all of the cheese on the pizza as it is being dressed. Also, if one has a pizza stone that can handle an 18Ē pizza, it should be possible to bake the pizza on that stone without the need of a pizza screen and the two-step baking process that is necessary when using a pizza screen. As I have noted before, I have to use a pizza screen because my stone cannot handle an 18Ē pizza by itself.

Overall, the methods I used seem to work well. The finished pizza weighed 962 grams, or about 33.93 ounces. By contrast, the weight of the ingredients that went into the pizza before baking and after the pre-bake, was 1101 grams, or 38.84 ounces. That represented a loss during pre-baking and the final bake of 139 grams, or 4.90 ounces, or about 14.5%. These numbers suggest that my latest pizza was perhaps 1-2+ ounces too heavy, based on Normaís recent report that the par-baked pizza she purchased from Mackís was 34 ounces. To put the next iteration of the pizza on a diet, I think I might use slightly less sauce and maybe slightly less cheese, or possibly some other apportionment of these two items.

In terms of the finished characteristics of the pizza, I would say that the latest pizza seemed to capture the look and feel of an authentic Mackís pizza better than my previous versions. The crust evidenced blistering along with some large bubbles in the finished crust. The rim was fairly flat (I had intentionally flattened the rim of the unbaked skin) and stiffer and more cracker-like than my previous efforts. The slices themselves were fairly soft and floppy away from the rim, and foldable. The crust flavors were good. The total weight of the pizza seems to be close to the Mackís target, although I canít say whether the amounts of cheese and sauce are correct. As before, I still donít have any idea as to how close these characteristics match up with a real Mackís pizza. No doubt, having a better cheese and sauce would go a long way to improving my version of the Mackís pizza even if the dough is not the correct one. Norma or others familiar with the Mackís pizzas will have to sort out these issues.

The photos appear below.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2010, 04:23:46 PM
And the slice photos...

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2010, 10:03:55 PM
Peter,

You latest Mackís clone pizza looks delicious.  :)  Did your longer fermentation give the crust a greater flavor than your last Mackís clone.  It would seem to me that your latest pie, would be more flavorful than a real Mackís pizza.  With the lower hydration and added oil it seems like this is a better approach to making a Mackís clone. Your finished pie does look like a Mackís pizza.

I find it interesting how you combined cheeses and then parbaked to keep the cheese from oiling off. 

I donít really think you need to put the pizza on a diet, with less of anything.   :-D

Steve and I also tried another Mackís clone pizza today.  We did weight almost everything.  I think the only thing we forgot to weigh was the pizza when it was dressed, before the bake. We only remembered that after we put the pie in the oven. I only used a dough ball that was frozen from my last stab at the Mackís clone and tried another kind of mild white cheddar cheese that I found at my local grocery store.  I will try your recent formula with my next attempt for the Mackís clone, since yours looks closer to a real Mackís pie than ours did today.  When I get finished getting all the notes down and writing what we did today, I will post the results as what happened with pictures, probably tomorrow.  The Mackís clone today did taste okay, but still the cheese isnít right. It didnít break down and had the oiling of the Mackís pie. Your crust also looks better than ours. These pictures are of the kind of cheese we tried out and one picture of the finished pie.

I still donít know how we are ever going to get the cheese right for a Mackís clone.  Even if we find out what brand of cheese Mackís is using it might be one of those kinds of mild white cheddar that only comes in 40 lb. blocks.  The only thing I can think of right now is to try different kinds of mild white cheddar that can be found at my local grocery stores.  At least that way someone will be able to reproduce the Mackís clone at home if we ever get this right.  When I got home today Foremost Farms did send the sample bag of cheese, but it is a blend of part-skim mozzarella, provolone and mild white cheddar.  They also told me before that the mild white cheddar they handle only comes in 40 lb. blocks.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:29:04 AM
Steve and I tried another Mackís clone at market, yesterday.  I used a dough ball that was frozen from my last attempt.  The dough ball was left in the deli case most of the day to defrost.  When the dough ball was taken out, it had completely defrosted.  The dough ball was just left on the counter until I grated the cheese with a hand grater and we made a few regular pizzas.

Steve opened the dough, pressed the whole dough ball, twirled the pie, put the cheese on first, then the sauce (with a ketchup bottle), and then added the extra cheese.  The dough didnít tear and was fairly easy to open.  The cheese we tried this time was Heluva Good Brand of mild white cheddar, that I purchased at my local grocery store.  The cheese weighed 8oz.  On the nutritional facts it said there was 9 grams of total fat. We used the whole 8 oz. of the Heluva Good Brand of mild white cheddar cheese to dress the pie. Steve weighed the sauce and we tared out the bottle for the sauce..  We used a total of 7.6 oz. of Gangi sauce that had added herbs and sugar.  We forgot to weigh the unbaked pie.  We did weigh the baked pie right out of the oven.  First we weighed the metal pizza peel, that we would be taking the pizza out of the oven with. It weighed 1.516 lbs. As can be seen on one of these pictures how much the freshly baked pie weighed, minus the weight of the metal pizza peel. The attempted Mackís clone pie was 1.844 lbs. freshly baked.  It was hot today, so two fans were running.  The scale is sensitive, so the weighs fluctuated a little from the fans.  We also wanted to see how much weigh loss there was while the pie was cooling, so we left the pie on the scales and watched how much loss there was in weight.  At 150 degrees F we saw some weight loss.  When the pie temperature fell to 125 degrees F., the pizza weighed 3.330 lb., minus the weight of the metal pizza peel.  Since neither of us had ever done this test before after baking a pie, we were amazed how much a pie loses weigh while cooling.  We tried to take a picture of the temperature of the pie, with the scale in the background, but infrared gauge doesnít show up right in the picture.

As we continue to try and duplicate a Mackís clone, even though I have recently tasted a real Mackís pizza, both Steve and I have discussed how hard it is to come up with a decent formula for a clone.  I also bought another kind of mild white cheddar when I purchased the Heluva Good Brand.  It is called Biery mild white cheddar.  If I get a chance to mix another dough this week or weekend, I will then try the Biery mild white cheddar in another attempt to clone the Mackís pizza.  The Biery brand also has 9 grams of fat.  Steve used this kind of mild white cheddar for 3 Greek pizzas he made yesterday.  The cheese tasted something like Mackís in the Greek Pizza.  He used the mild white cheddar in combination with mozzarella cheese.  The cheese didnít break down in the oven, so maybe this is another brand that might come close to what Mackís is using.  Only time will tell this, also. 

In light of Peterís recent experiment with the clone Mackís pizza, I think I will follow his formula for the next attempt.  His formula seems better than what I had been previously using.  I am glad he posted his results. That will help me in the next attempt.  If anyone has any better ideas of what I should attempt in my next experiment with the Mackís clone, or what I might have done wrong, I would appreciate any ideas.  I really donít know how to figure out how much sauce and cheese I should be using since I am only trying a 16" pie now. 

As I said in my last post, the pie was tasty, but the cheese still isnít right.  There was a crunch to the crust and some softness, but this also wasnít the way I remembered the real Mackís pizza.  I had also taken two slices of the parbaked pizzas to market today to try out again, but both Steve and I were full of pizza after tasting his 3 Greek pizzas and then the Mackís clone.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:30:30 AM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: sear on May 26, 2010, 09:17:11 AM
how to you like the balance of sauce when applied like that ?
They said it was done to save time.

all this effort to make the same pie as mack is amazing. especially Pete, never even tried a slice  :-D

is there a "Norma Pizza" or a "Pete-zza Pizza " recipe yet ?   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2010, 09:55:11 AM
Norma,

Since I have been making 18" pies and you have been making 16" pies, an easy way to scale down from 18" to 16" is to take the weight of the major ingredients--the dough, cheese and sauce--for an 18" pie and multiply those values by 64/81, which is the ratio of the squares of the two radii (8" and 9") for the two pizza sizes. For example, I used a dough ball weight of 21 ounces. I chose that size because it is a nice round number and on the assumption that Mack's would be unlikely to pick an oddball weight for its dough balls (assuming they, or a machine that forms the dough balls, are weighing them). To scale that dough ball weight to a 16" size, the math is 16 x 64/81 = 16.59 ounces. Of course, since I calculated and posted the equivalent nominal thickness factor (0.08252) for my 18" pizza, you could use that number in the expanded dough calculating tool to get the quantities of ingredients needed to make a 16" pizza. With respect to the cheese, I used about 12 ounces. For a 16" pizza, the corresponding value would be 12 x 64/81 = 9.48 ounces (or 9.5 ounces rounded off). I used about 7 ounces of sauce. The corresponding amount for a 16" pizza is 7 x 64/81 = 5.53 ounces (or 5.5 ounces rounded off).

Of course, I could be wrong on the split of the numbers. However, based on all the numbers that have been reported on this matter, I believe that the total weight of an unbaked 18" Mack's clone pizza is around 38 ounces. That is based on my oven and bake protocol and the type of weight losses I have been experiencing. Your oven and bake protocol might well be different and produce different weight losses. However, for calculation purposes, converting 38 ounces to a 16" case, the total unbaked weight for a 16" pizza would be about 38 x 64/81 = 27.65 ounces. That value would have to be split between the weight of the dough, the weight of the cheese and the weight of the sauce. When I have made my Mack's clones, I tried to mimic what I saw in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc. In looking at the photo you posted of the skin with the first layer of cheese, that strikes me to be about right. The first layer of cheese is fairly sparse. I also noticed in the video that the second application of cheese seems to be less evenly distributed, with "clumps" of the shredded cheese here and there. That might help explain why the finished pizza seems to have a fair amount of cheese yet the sauce shows through in many places. I think I will try that approach next time. However, I will confess that the Mack's pizzas seem to have many different looks. Even within the abovementioned video the pizzas don't look exactly alike. The Mack's photos we have seen elsewhere on the Internet also have many different looks. I think that Mack's uses doughs with all kinds of ages. I say this because some of the photos evidence long fermentation, with blisters and the like, whereas others indicate short fermentations, with smooth surfaces at the rim with uniform color and no blistering or bubbling.

One of the things I am now considering is attempting a dough with more oil and a shorter fermentation time, maybe as little as a day. One of the mysteries is why the Mack's dough skins don't have any bubbling in them as they are formed on the bench. My last dough skin had fewer bubbles but there were still some. Maybe more oil and a short fermentation and modest temper time might produce that result. We don't know what goes on behind the curtain where they make the dough and what kind of dough storage facilities Mack's has, but as a large volume operation, I would think that they move their dough balls in and out pretty quickly.

You asked earlier about the crust flavors of my last Mack's clone. To be honest, I can't say that I noticed a big difference. Also, I was preoccupied thinking about what I had done that I didn't focus on the crust flavors. I will have to pay closer attention when I reheat the leftover slices.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2010, 10:09:29 AM
all this effort to make the same pie as mack is amazing. especially Pete, never even tried a slice  :-D

James,

Norma is my "seeing eye dog" so to speak. Unless I am trying to demonstrate a point, I usually prefer to wait until I feel I have succeeded with a clone dough formulation before posting it and discussing it. Typically it is someone else who has to tell me if I succeeded. However, since Norma is the only one who knows the real Mack's pizza, or some other member who is helping out, I am trying to help her to make it to the promised land by posting my results as I achieve them. However, trying to replicate a pizza you have never eaten before or at least seen in person does put your knowledge and research skills and instincts to the test. It is a humbling and sometimes frustrating experience.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: sear on May 26, 2010, 10:33:44 AM
James,

Norma is my "seeing eye dog" so to speak. Unless I am trying to demonstrate a point, I usually prefer to wait until I feel I have succeeded with a clone dough formulation before posting it and discussing it. Typically it is someone else who has to tell me if I succeeded. However, since Norma is the only one who knows the real Mack's pizza, or some other member who is helping out, I am trying to help her to make it to the promised land by posting my results as I achieve them. However, trying to replicate a pizza you have never eaten before or at least seen in person does put your knowledge and research skills and instincts to the test. It is a humbling and sometimes frustrating experience.

Peter

oh i believe you !!  :o

what about my other question ? do you have recipe you call your own ?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: DavePZ on May 26, 2010, 10:48:49 AM
Hey Guys -

I have been making pizza's along with you over the last couple months, and have tried 7 or 8 different mild chedders in an effort to duplicate the unique cheese flavor of Mack's.

The other day I recieved another chedder cheese from a place online. I think its by far the best so far. I got from: http://www.henningscheese.com/, and its the Mild White Chedder. It was not cheap including shipping, so I don't think I can afford to keep buying it, but I would love to get someone else's opinon on this one. And if someone has seen this in a store, please let me know.

Thanks!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2010, 10:52:27 AM
what about my other question ? do you have recipe you call your own ?

James,

I thought that you meant a Mack's clone dough formulation, where the answer would be "not yet". If you meant some other recipe that is uniquely mine, I would say that the answer is no. I do manipulate recipes all the time but I don't view that as being noteworthy. I think of myself as more of a mechanic (and hopefully a passable one) trying to master his craft rather than an inventor.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 11:11:46 AM
Peter,

Thank you for explaining how to scale down my weight.  I will try to do that in my next iteration or maybe try to make a 18" pizza.  At this time, I havenít decided whether to try and bake my next pie in my home oven or at market. 

I also agree that the Mackís pizzas have so many looks in looking at the different pictures of their crusts. I have also seen them free throwing the cheese.  It looked like there was a fair amount of cheese used, in the different times I watched.  I donít think we will ever be able to accurately predict how much cheese they do use with all the free throwing or even trying to guess how much sauce is put on each pie.  That is also just as each pie man dictates.  There isnít any accurate measurements.  After thinking about this, I can now believe their pizzas could weigh differently with each one after being baked.  The only way to tell that would be to weigh different real Mackís pizzas, but I know that isnít possible.

I canít really believe at this point that Mackís would cold ferment their dough for longer than a day or two.  I think it just would create too much confusion, with all the pies they sell in the summer.  This could also not make too many fermentation bubbles in the crust.

That is also something that puzzles me about their skins donít seem to have any fermentation bubbles when opening the dough.  The pizzas we tried yesterday didnít seem to have as many fermentation bubbles as the last dough I tried at home, but then I didnít give the dough much warm-up time yesterday. 
            
I wish I could go behind the curtain and really see how they operate, but know that is impossible. 

Let me know if you decide to make any changes in you next attempt.  I might also change my formula closer to yours, to see what kind of results I get.  Since you have played around with experimenting with more doughs that I ever can imagine, your help is appreciated. 

Sorry to make you go though this whole process, when you havenít ever even tasted a Mackís pizza.  You sure are the mechanic and more than passable in trying to help with this thread.

Norma

sear,

If you want to try one of the formulas that either Peter or I posted, I believe it would get you somewhere near and real Mackís pie, but still we donít have this whole thing figured out, or possibly never will have it exactly like a Mackís pizza.  I am the ďseeing eye dogĒ, so to speak, but I am not able to try a real Mackís pizza each week.  As I found out before, what I remembered from five years ago, wasnít really accurate.  I now question my abilities to even remember exactly what their pizzas tasted like only a few weeks ago.  It is the mild white cheddar taste in my opinion that makes their pizzas stand out.  Of course the crust has something to do with the final taste also.  I still have some of the Gangi sauce, but soon will run out of that.  I might just try some regular tomato paste, or either try some of the Stanislaus products that are extra heavy with basil that I normally use in my pizzas.

Norma

DavePZ,

Thanks for saying you also have been trying to create a Mackís clone pizza.  I will look in the stores around me to see if I can find the brand you said is the closest in your opinion.  I donít think I am going to go about purchasing cheese online.  Since the cheese is the most expensive ingredient in making this pizzas, it can get expensive in trying new kinds.  Keep us informed of your progress.  If you have time to post some pictures, it would be helpful to see how your pizzas look and also how the cheese melts.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:29:22 PM
how to you like the balance of sauce when applied like that ?
They said it was done to save time.  

sear,

Sorry, I forgot to answer you question.  In my opinion, I like the sauce that is applied with a squeeze bottle.  It  does combine with the mild white cheddar very well, while baking the whole pizza. 

In the video and while watching them apply the sauce, the pie men did say this step was to save time.  The last day I went to visit Mack's pizza, they weren't busy and were applying the sauce with some kind of stainless steel kettle.  It looked much like a stainless steel tea pot, like I used to use when I was making funnel cakes.  The pouring spout was fairly large and as I watched, it looked like more sauce was applied for the parbaked pie I brought home.  Maybe they only use the hose when they are busy.  Really I don't know. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 26, 2010, 08:48:47 PM
This is a picture that is somewhat like the stainless steel pouring vessel Mack's were using instead of the hose, the last day I was at Mack's pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 01, 2010, 10:22:15 PM
I found these Yanceyís Fresh Cheddar Cheese Curds at market today at a meat stand.  The cheese curds had a great taste. When I talked to the meat man, he said it almost tastes like fresh mozzarella.  I did taste the cheese curds and they were good.  Maybe I will try this brand of cheese in my next attempt of the Mackís clone.

http://www.yanceysfancy.com/specialty_cheeses.htm

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2010, 03:20:01 PM

I was at our local Country Store today to pick up some flour. I found another kind of mild white cheddar.  I am not sure of the brand because the lady that owns the store wasnít there today.  Now I have 3 kinds of mild white cheddar to experiment with the Mackís clone.  ;D  Hopefully one of these will come close to tasting like a cheese used on the Mackís pizza.  I have the Biery mild white cheddar, the Yancey cheddar curds and now this new white mild cheddar.  I will make another dough ball sometime this week or over the weekend to try.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: rayjock on June 02, 2010, 04:34:58 PM
I'm new to the site and I don't know if any of this has been mentioned before, but...

I used to work at Mack's in Wildwood, NJ over 40 years ago. Here's what I know:

1. The dough was mixed by Duke Mack early in the morning every day. The recipe was secret, known only to a few family members. The batches were separated into balls, put on metal pans and allowed to rise for at least 7 hours.
2. The sauce came out of cans (local NJ company) and was put into vats in the basement, to be pumped up to the main floor. We (the workers), seasoned the sauce with oregano and some pepper. The sauce was "no big deal".
3. The cheese is "longhorn cheddar" which came in big wheels from Wisconsin. We grated the cheese as needed. Use of this cheese gives the pizza a stronger "cheese" flavor
4. After hand-tooling (important), the dough into a pie, the cheese was put on first, followed by the sauce which was sprinkled on via a small hose. To get the right taste, THE CHEESE MUST BE PUT ON FIRST! After the sauce, a little more cheese is put on. All this is done in less than a minute, so that the pizza is not soggy.
5. The oven was very hot - at least 550 degrees. The pie took only a couple of minutes to bake.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2010, 05:13:29 PM
rayjock,

Welcome to the forum and I hope you like it here.  This thread appreciates all you remember.  What you have told us really can help in this process of getting the Mackís clone closer, now.  Members on this thread have identified the sauce as Gangi Supreme, but werenít sure what was added to the sauce.  It makes sense now that only oregano and pepper might be added, because when Steve (Ev) and I tasted the parbaked real Mackís pizza, that is all we could taste in the sauce. 

The longhorn cheddar could be the really big clue, as how the cheese might have the unique taste the pie has.  We have tried different kinds of mild white cheddar cheese, but never thought to try a longhorn cheddar.

The description on how Duke Mack made the dough years ago, could also be a clue we were missing.  Never thought about it could be a one day dough. 

We watched videos of the piemen making the pies and saw how they used hoses to spread on the sauce and also saw how they applied the cheese.  ERAMSO and I have been to Wildwood this year and sampled Mackís pizza. 

If we ever get this Mackís clone right, I hope you will try the formula and see if it what you remember, in the taste of the crust, sauce, and cheese.

Were you one of the piemen 40 years ago?   If you were, I can imagine how busy you were.

Thank you for your contribution and if I can every help you with some kind of pie I know how to make, let me know. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 03, 2010, 09:29:13 PM
Peter,

After much thought on rayjockís  post yesterday, I am now wondering if you think it might be possible that Mackís might be doing a one day ferment.  rayjock said he worked at Mackís over forty years ago, so a same day ferment now, seems unlikely to me.  How could Mackís determine how much dough they might need for the same day?  They would need to determine each day how much dough to make and any leftover dough might not be good for the next day.  After looking at some threads of same day fermentation and reading that the one day ferment gives a better flavor, such as a longer cold ferment, I canít say that when I tasted Mackís pizza, that their crust  had any characteristics of a long ferment.  I have never tried a one day ferment, other than a Sicilian dough, so I canít tell what the difference might be in a thin crust pizza in a one day ferment.

I had some Colby White Longhorn cheese here at home and tasted some today and also some mild white cheddar cheese.  In my opinion there isnít much difference, except the Colby White Longhorn was creamier.  I know by eating different kinds of Longhorn cheese, there can be different tastes from one brand to another.  This also has me puzzled.

I wanted to make another stab at a formula for a Mackís clone this weekend, but all this has me undecided.

Do you have any thoughts about the ferment times or cheese?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 03, 2010, 10:20:50 PM
Norma,

I usually go with my gut on these kinds of matters. It seems to me that a high volume operation will not cold ferment dough for several days. Mack's is not an artisan operation where I could easily imagine a long fermentation scenario. Also, looking at some of the recent Mack's pizzas, I don't see the signs of long fermentation. That was in good measure behind my comments in Reply 313 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99531.html#msg99531 where I mentioned that I was considering a short fermentation time, possibly as little as a day (coupled with an increase in the amount of oil). If it weren't for the fact that the temperature here in Texas has been in the 90s lately and headed to around 100 degrees this weekend, I might have already started a new Mack's clone dough. That will have to wait until cooler weather sneaks in at some point.

It is also hard for me to imagine that Mack's hasn't changed something in the way it makes its doughs over the past 40 years. Unless you are trying to capture a Mack's pizza of many years ago, the best we can do at this point is to try to capture what Mack's is now doing. Managing inventory of dough balls is not a major problem, whether the dough balls are made and used the same day, or possibly the next day. However, the yeast quantity has to support both possibilities. Possibly the Mack's pizzas that we have seen with signs of long fermentation are made from dough held overnight or maybe even longer. That would most likely mean that Mack's has cooler capacity somewhere. Maybe rayjock can shed more light on how the Mack's dough was made and managed from an inventory standpoint when he was an employee.

There is not much that I can offer on the matter of cheese, given the limited choices I have here in Texas.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 03, 2010, 10:57:51 PM
Peter,

I will work out a formula based on your last formula at, http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 but will add more oil, less yeast and try a same day ferment to see what the results will be. 

What I meant in my lost post was I had been trying doughs with a longer ferment, when trying the Mackís clone and I havenít ever tried a same day dough.  If Mackís is still making the dough early in the morning and using it the same day, this is what had me puzzled.  All my NY style crusts have at least been a one day cold ferment.

At least I donít have any problems with finding different kinds of cheese here.  I can see you are at a disadvantage in Texas.

I can understand with the temperatures you have in Texas, that it would be too hot to make anything that would involve heating an oven.  When I was at market Tuesday, the temperature was about 88 degrees F and standing in front of the oven until around 5:00 was hot enough for me.  At least my granddaughter was graduating and I got to leave early.  I had enough of the heat and humidity.

Thanks for your insight,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2010, 11:05:16 AM
What I meant in my lost post was I had been trying doughs with a longer ferment, when trying the Mackís clone and I havenít ever tried a same day dough.  If Mackís is still making the dough early in the morning and using it the same day, this is what had me puzzled.  All my NY style crusts have at least been a one day cold ferment.

Norma,

In the days before commercial refrigeration existed, pizza operators made and used the dough the same day, using room temperature fermentation. If you are interested, you can read Evelyne Slomon's discussion of the typical ways that pizza operators made and used their dough, at Reply 38 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29496/topicseen.html#msg29496. The advent of refrigeration made a big difference in how pizza operators made and managed their dough. The problem with using only room temperature fermentation was the lack of good temperature control, which introduced too many variables in the fermentation process. You can read Evelyne's comments on some of the early practices of the original NYC pizza operators at Reply 606 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg41054/topicseen.html#msg41054.

In the above vein, I remember one member, a pizza operator I was helping, who decided to use only emergency doughs made at room temperature and used throughout the course of the day. Apparently, his competitors were using much the same approach. I tried to talk him out of that approach but he gave it a try anyway, only to give up fairly quickly when he discovered how much room temperature could affect his dough. No doubt there are a few stragglers here and there who are still using same-day doughs fermented at room temperature, and maybe they have mastered all of the procedures and inventory issues, but I would guess that they are very much in the minority. They may also be using bulk dough from which pieces of dough are cut and run through a roller or sheeter of some kind. This cuts down equipment needs and labor considerably.

I have done some experimentation with same-day cold fermented doughs but with only limited success. The problem from my perspective is insufficient fermentation and, therefore, insufficient byproducts of fermentation to contribute to the finished crust flavor, taste, color, aroma and texture. Also, more yeast has to be used to increase the fermentation so that the dough balls are ready when needed. The dough will rise faster and produce more fermentation gases but the fermentation byproducts do not expand apace. The crusts may be better than those made from emergency doughs but not as good as those made from long, cold fermented doughs.

Knowing where Mack's dough making and management methods fall within the range of methods discussed above and in Evelyne's posts would give us more clues to the Mack's dough.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 12:40:04 PM
Peter,

That first link was really helpful and I learned a lot from it.  I didnít know Tom Lehmann and Evelyne Solomon were friends and learned from each other.  Seems like the Lehmann dough was formulated from a team effort.  It was also interesting about how the Lombardi formula came from the same person and Evelyne only mentioned it because you did a comparison.  I really liked how Evelyne said that Tom Lehmann gave her the science and she gave him the art of pizza making. Evelyne is a real artisan pizza maker.

Possibly after reading this, it might be how Mackís makes their dough in the morning.

REFRIGERATED DOUGH METHOD:
OBJECTIVE: dough is prepared during down time, divided into preweighed units, and placed into a retarder where it remains in a relatively stable condition for use on the following day.
PROBLEMS: Requires careful attention to dough temperature control; a walk-in retarder of sufficient capacity is required to hold a number of racks containing dough
MERITS: Not necessary to accurately predict daily sales, extra dough always on hand to fill unexpected sales and surplus dough can be carried over for use on the following day; good level of dough uniformity; convenience.

I also see Evelyne suggests for a longer dough she advises to use more sugar, not more yeast, if you are already using sugar in the dough.  Will have to think about that suggestion.

The second link you referenced really had me cracking up about how Tom Lehmann tried to so called ďdumpster divingĒ to find out how to make Evelyneís pizza at Pizzico Restaurant .  I canít believe not that long ago Tom Lehmann didnít even know how to make a authentic New Style pizza and was paid to find out how to go about it.  Seems like Tom Lehmann did learn a lot from Evelyne.  I also see how Evelyne talks about mastering a same day dough.  Tom Lehmann trying to reverse-engineer a dough still has me laughing.

I have wanted to try a same day room temperature fermented dough at some point, but have never gotten around to it.  I was reading up on that subject, but wonít try that experiment with this Mackís clone dough. 

Do you have think I should just try higher sugar amounts and not more yeast to keep the fermentation bubbles down on the skin?  When looking at the Mackís dough, there doesnít appear to be any bubbles, when opening their dough.  I do believe Mackís is using refrigeration, while storing their dough balls.

I donít have enough experience in dough making to be able to decide, which the best approach might be.

Thanks for the links,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 04, 2010, 01:13:37 PM
Norma

Master foods near me carries a Wisc. White mild cheddar in a 40lb block.  I am going to buy a block.  Would you mind if I sent you some to try?  Free, of course.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2010, 01:50:40 PM
I also see Evelyne suggests for a longer dough she advises to use more sugar, not more yeast, if you are already using sugar in the dough.  Will have to think about that suggestion.

Norma,

I, too, noted Evelyne's comments on sugar, at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3443.msg29501.html#msg29501. Having worked for so long on Lehmann NY style doughs, my practice has been not to add sugar inasmuch as the fermentation period was unlikely to go beyond three days (cold fermentation). Beyond that point, I might add some sugar for the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation as Tom routinely recommends. Tom's concern about the use of sugar is that the bottoms of crusts might turn brown prematurely or even burn if baked in a standard deck oven. To a certain extent, it depends on the oven, Apparently, some deck ovens can tolerate 1-2% sugar without any problem. I don't know how tolerant of sugar the Roto-Flex oven used by Mack's is. I found that that sugar was less of a problem in a standard home oven using a pizza stone. 

I'm not sure whether using more sugar in a Mack's clone dough will lead to materially reduced bubbling of the dough. Ordinary table sugar (sucrose) does take quite a while to be broken down into simple sugars that yeast uses as food so maybe that will slow down the formation of the bubbles. Using more yeast would seem to be a faster approach to bubbling provided there are enough simple sugars in the dough from all sources (natural) to produce more carbon dioxide. I have a Lehmann NY style dough in the works to which I added 1.5% sugar. I added it because I wasn't sure when I would use it and viewed it as insurance in case I let the dough go beyond three days.

In your case, it shouldn't hurt for you to use more sugar rather than more yeast for the approximately one-day dough that you are considering making. Maybe we can learn something from your results.

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 06:26:13 PM
ERASMO,

You are too kind.  Do you have something you might want to use the Wisconsin mild white cheddar for?  In light of rayjockís last post, he said they used white longhorn cheese in Mackís pizza years ago.  I did a taste test yesterday and canít really tell much difference in the taste of 2 kinds of mild white cheddar I have here at home, compared to the Colby White Longhorn.  I did just tasted the Yanceyís cheddar cheese curds at market today, that I had in the Deli Case at market and the taste of them is a much better taste than any of the other cheeses.  It even left a taste in my mouth like mozzarella.  They even were a few strings like good mozzarella.  I really donít think Mackís would be using an expensive cheese like Yanceyís, but am confused whether to try a longhorn or one of the mild cheddar cheeses I do have.  I donít have any idea of how these cheeses will taste after baking a Mackís clone.  I found out before some of the cheeses tasted a lot different after the bake.

If you have other uses for the 40 lb. block of Wisconsin mild white cheddar let me know.  I donít want you to waste money for something you wonít use.

We are still trying to figure out how the crust might be made.

Thanks,

Norma


Peter,

I was just thinking about when I made the Papa Johnís clone and how much sugar was in that formula.

You said when you were going to try a Papaís Johnís clone again, you were going to lower the salt to .0.75 %  after you tried the Apple pie clone at your reply:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80777.html#msg80777

Did you ever try Papa Johnís clone with the 0.75% salt?

Since the Papa Johnís clone is also a fairly low hydration, lower IDY, more sugar, and more oil amounts as you replied:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

Do you think this could help figured this Mackís formula out in any way?  In using this formula there shouldnít be much expansion in the dough for a one day dough or if it had to be used the next day.  This dough was docked, but I could see how the crust could be flatten by the rigorous ways Mackís uses in opening their dough. I the only thing that might not work out would be the sugar amounts.  Maybe I am all wet on this, but was just thinking about when I tried to Papa Johnís clone and the ingredients that were used.

This was the formula I used when making the Papa Johnís clone:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg75889.html#msg75889

and what the finished crust looked like

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg76149.html#msg76149

Maybe I will add a little more sugar to see what might happen, I will think about all this. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2010, 07:43:39 PM
Peter,

I was just thinking about when I made the Papa Johnís clone and how much sugar was in that formula.

You said when you were going to try a Papaís Johnís clone again, you were going to lower the salt to .0.75 %  after you tried the Apple pie clone at your reply:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg80777.html#msg80777

Did you ever try Papa Johnís clone with the 0.75% salt?

Since the Papa Johnís clone is also a fairly low hydration, lower IDY, more sugar, and more oil amounts as you replied:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6758.msg58197.html#msg58197

Do you think this could help figured this Mackís formula out in any way?  In using this formula there shouldnít be much expansion in the dough for a one day dough or if it had to be used the next day.  This dough was docked, but I could see how the crust could be flatten by the rigorous ways Mackís uses in opening their dough. I the only thing that might not work out would be the sugar amounts.  Maybe I am all wet on this, but was just thinking about when I tried to Papa Johnís clone and the ingredients that were used.

Norma,

I do not think that the Papa John's clone experience helps us divine the Mack's dough formulation. The Papa John's clone doughs contain over 7% oil and over 4% sugar. Also, the thickness factors for most of the PJ clones I made were over 0.14. The combination of these three elements will mean a fairly thick crust and crumb with a soft and tender characteristic. They do not encourage a lot of chewiness or cracker-like aspects in the rim of the crust. The last two Mack's clone doughs I made used much less oil and much less sugar than the PJ clone doughs and a thickness factor of around 0.08. Those efforts produced a result that did not remind me of PJ crusts, even considering that there are similarities of hydration and yeast levels. My thinking was more along the lines of a high-hydration version of DKM's cracker-style dough (see, for example, the last paragraph of Reply 3 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg78465.html#msg78465) or the De Lorenzo clone doughs I experimented with, both of which include sugar and oil. With respect to the De Lorenzo clone effort, see the De Lorenzo clone dough formulation at Reply 117 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7841.msg45060.html#msg45060. The pizza made using that formulation had a more cracker-like character than a Mack's clone crust because of its lower thickness factor (a bit over 0.05) and resulting thinner crust.

With respect to reducing the salt in the PJ clone doughs to 0.75%, I did not proceed with that plan. If you read a few posts later than the one you referenced, you will see that member November challenged my math and ultimately convinced me that there was more than 0.75% salt in a real PJ crust.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 04, 2010, 08:45:48 PM
Norma

I did not realize the longhorn was NOT cheddar. 

I thought is was a type of white mild cheddar.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 09:06:44 PM
Norma

I did not realize the longhorn was NOT cheddar. 

I thought is was a type of white mild cheddar.


ERASMO,

I think the longhorn is a kind of mild white cheddar, but am not sure.  It doesn't say on the label it is a cheddar.  I will have to look it up, but thought that the longhorn cheese is just cheddar that isn't aged. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 09:12:37 PM
Peter,

I didnít read far enough in your post before about you saying the pizza wasnít particularly cracker-like, but more a combination of a chewy, crispy and crunchy crust.  Then you said it was like a combination of a NY style and a thin and crispy style.  I just thought when you referenced that post before, that I sure didnít think the Mackís pizza crust was a cracker-style. I can now see there are some characteristics of a Mackís crust in those photos.

Your De Lorenzo clone looks promising, also.  I could imagine Mackís pizza being something like a De Lorenzoís pie, because before, I also noted that both the Mack family and Manco family apparently came from Trenton NJ and learn their pizza making skills there before going to the shore.

I remember November challenging you about the salt, but didnít remember what happened, because you were also posting about the Papa Johnís Applepie and the salt used in the Applepie. I sure didnít understand anything about nutritional data back then.

I still am not sure how to proceed, but your links and ideas will help me to decide.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2010, 09:20:49 PM
I think the longhorn is a kind of mild white cheddar, but am not sure.  It doesn't say on the label it is a cheddar.  I will have to look it up, but thought that the longhorn cheese is just cheddar that isn't aged. 


Norma and ERASMO,

Since I had not heard of the term "longhorn" as applied to white cheddar cheese, I did a Google search. As noted at http://www.practicallyedible.com/edible.nsf/pages/longhorn%20cheese!opendocument&startkey=longhorn%20cheese, it appears that the term "longhorn" applies to a particular shape and size of a block of cheese. The last sentence of the referenced article indicates that the actual cheese can be "mild cheddar".

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 09:26:16 PM
Peter and ERASMO,

This is what I found out about the Colby Longhorn I have here at home.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colby_cheese

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 04, 2010, 09:39:28 PM
I just took a picture of the Colby Longhorn, the regular white cheddar and the Biery mild cheddar cheese.  The Colby Longhorn, just has more holes and is more creamy when eaten.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 04, 2010, 09:41:55 PM
Your De Lorenzo clone looks promising, also.  I could imagine Mackís pizza being something like a De Lorenzoís pie, because before, I also noted that both the Mack family and Manco family apparently came from Trenton NJ and learn their pizza making skills there before going to the shore.

Norma,

I recalled that you mentioned the De Lorenzo's/Mack's/Manco connection, but until you brought up the subject of sugar and oil earlier today I hadn't thought to look at the De Lorenzo dough clone formulations, although I vaguely recalled using sugar and oil in the De Lorenzo clone doughs. The challenge then was to get pizza cuts that were stiff from the edge to the center (i.e., not floppy), without a crackery overall crust but with a hard rim that gave one's jaws a workout. The Mack's clone pizzas I made did not have those characteristics even with the similarity of dough formulations. It's possible that with the much larger size (18") of the Mack's clone pizzas and the thicker crusts (larger value of thickness factor), the Mack's clone pizzas had a much different character.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2010, 09:25:27 PM
Okay, Pinocchio and Gepetto wanted to help me with the Mackís clone, again today.  I asked them if they are willing to help today and guess what they said!  No, we just want to watch.  Well...I had to do something about that, since they also want this pizza to turn into a Mackís clone.  I said since they only wanted to watch I am going to pick the song today and also have a clone Pinocchio join me, since he was willing to help.  Clone Pinocchio and I picked the song today. Maybe all this will help, but again, maybe not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAioeWL1xaU

I mixed the clone dough earlier this morning to try and simulate how the dough might be made in the morning and used some time during the day or possibly the next day. 

This is the formula I used.


Flour (100%):    284.47 g  |  10.03 oz | 0.63 lbs
Water (55%):      156.46 g  |  5.52 oz | 0.34 lbs
IDY (0.35%):      1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
Salt (2%):                 5.69 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.19 tsp | 0.4 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):    17.07 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.79 tsp | 1.26 tbsp
Sugar (2%):                   5.69 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.43 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
Total (165.35%):     470.37 g | 16.59 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.08252

For this attempt, I increased the yeast, oil, and sugar.  I forgot to add a bowl residue, but got the bowl fairly clean.

The flour was sifted and the dough was mixed by hand.  I left the dough sit on the counter for an hour before putting it into the refrigerator.  I took the dough ball out of the refrigerator today at 4:00 pm. and left it warm up for until I just made the pie about an hour ago.  I didnít want to let the dough out that long, but other things preoccupied me. 

Seems like there is always a problem with something I try.  O well, I did weigh the dough ball and it weighed 1.01 lb.  I also weighed the Beiry Mild White Cheddar and it was 6 oz.  I weighed the Gangi sauce and it weighed, 7 oz.  I pressed hard on the skin and it opened nicely.  I then got the cheese I had grated out of the refrigerator and started to put the first layer on the pizza.  I donít know why, but the grated white cheddar wanted to stick together.  Next the Gangi sauce.  I started to put it on the pizza and realized I forgot to add water to thin it down.  Well no use adding water now, because I already started.  I had to weigh out another 1 oz. of sauce.  That is the reason the sauce looks so thick and blotchy.  I sprinkled the remainder of the cheese over the pie.  My big peel at market was left on top of my oven and Friday when I went to market, it must have rained and came down my vent.  Well the peel was warped, so I thought I would bring it home and try to get it straightened out and also use it today.  I loaded the pie onto the pizza stone.  After it started to bake, I looked though the window of the oven.  Low and behold there were big bubbles just forming on the one side of the pizza.  Quick grab the fork. 

When the pie was almost finished baking, I remembered I forgot to rig up some way to weigh the baked pizza.  Well I tried different ways and none of them were working with my metal peel in combination with something else. Quick check the pie again.  It was finished, but I still didnít have my metal peel and something else to weigh the pie.  Until I found something the pie was a little overbaked.  The freshly baked pie weighed 1.69 lb.  Some of the cheese dripped off the side of the baking stone, again.

I even had my beachfront property I purchased in Wildwood to help.

O well, just another day in pizza making.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2010, 09:27:13 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2010, 09:30:57 PM
2 more pictures..said file size too large  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2010, 09:32:17 PM
last two pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 06, 2010, 10:04:25 PM
Norma,

I think you very nicely captured the Mack's look of the rim and bottom crust. Also, it appears that your unbaked pizza weight was in line with what I calculated using the numbers for my last 18" pizza. Based on your before and after weight numbers (30.16 ounces and 27.04 ounces, respectively), the weight loss was about 10.3%.

How did you like the pizza? And do you have any other assessments or observations?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 06, 2010, 10:27:39 PM
Peter,

Thanks for saying the rim and bottom crust looked like Mackís. Good to hear my numbers were in line with yours.

The pizza was good, but over baked, as I said in my last post.  The mild white cheddar I used still didnít taste like a Mackís pizza.  I think the next time I give this a Mackís clone a try, I will use longhorn and see how that goes.  The sauce did taste like Mackís, but then it is the same sauce Mackís uses.  I added just oregano and grated black pepper to the sauce.  The skin didnít have as many  bubbles this time and although I just made the dough today, the crust still had a good flavor.  Even with using a lower hydration, the dough still worked out well.  I donít know if I left the dough out to warm-up to long or what happened with the big bubbles on the one side of the crust when baking.  I used the infrared thermometer and the oven was 500 degrees F.  I don't know why the white cheddar cheese wanted to stick together, either.  After I grated it, I put it right back into the refrigerator until I was ready to use it.  Maybe the mild white cheddar I did use today would have tasted better if the pie wasn't over baked.

Do you have any other suggestions on how to approach this Mackís clone in terms of the dough formulation? 

I was really warm and humid here this morning, but they were calling for a cool front to come though this afternoon, so I thought I would give the Mackís clone another try.  At least the kitchen didnít get hot and just with the windows open, the temperature was okay.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on June 06, 2010, 10:51:43 PM
Do you have any other suggestions on how to approach this Mackís clone in terms of the dough formulation? 

Norma,

After I have had a chance to revisit things I may have some new ideas. But, for now, I don't have anything new to offer. As I noted before, I was considering doing something along the lines of what you did although I hadn't decided on whether to make a same-day dough or a next-day dough. In some respects, a next-day dough provides greater flexibility from a planning and inventory management standpoint than a same-day dough although, as I noted before, it should be possible to come up with a dough formulation that can be used both same day and next day. In fact, that could help explain the many different looks we have seen for the Mack's pizzas.   

No doubt the 6% olive oil added to the crust flavor. You perhaps also got the wheat flavor of the high-gluten flour.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: hotsawce on June 07, 2010, 11:50:27 PM
Looks really great  ;D Bet it tastes even better!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 08, 2010, 06:19:30 AM
hotwawce,

Thanks for saying the Mackís clone looks great, but I over baked it.   The taste of the crust was good, but we are having problems with finding a mild cheddar cheese that tastes like a real Mackís pizza.  Even if we found out what brand of mild white cheddar the real Mackís pizza uses, it would be a problem for members to find their brand, because it is probably purchased in 40 lb. blocks.  That is why we are trying different brands that can be purchased at a regular grocery store. I am trying different kinds of mild white cheddar, that can be purchased at a regular grocery store to see if any of those mild white cheddars might have the same flavor as a real Mackís pizza.  This is a continuing journey, just as the video I posted in reply #341.  When the elephant is flying with the monkey and searching for a shooting star to wish on, we really know elephants canít fly, but we can dream of something happening, which it might not.  I donít know if we will ever be able to find a mild white cheddar that will compare with a real Mackís pizza, but I can wish.

The crust is coming along okay, but still needs some work.  Trying to clone a pie is difficult.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: CAPSLOCK on June 08, 2010, 08:39:27 PM
I don't have much to add to this thread other than thanks for all of the hard work.

I lived in OC NJ the summer after I graduated HS in an apartment above a non descript pizzeria (Aldos?), we hardly ever ate there and opted to hike a great distance to Mac's to get pizza, that was some good stuff for sure, and worth the trek.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 08, 2010, 11:02:51 PM
I don't have much to add to this thread other than thanks for all of the hard work.

I lived in OC NJ the summer after I graduated HS in an apartment above a non descript pizzeria (Aldos?), we hardly ever ate there and opted to hike a great distance to Mac's to get pizza, that was some good stuff for sure, and worth the trek.

CAPSLOCK,

Since you lived in Ocean City, NJ, didn't you ever try Mack and Mancos pizza?  They were there for a long while.  Their pizza is about same as Mack's pizza. I agree Mack's pizza is something different and would like to be able to create a Mack's clone.  Only time will tell if we ever will be successful.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: CAPSLOCK on June 09, 2010, 11:59:33 AM
CAPSLOCK,

Since you lived in Ocean City, NJ, didn't you ever try Mack and Mancos pizza?  They were there for a long while.  Their pizza is about same as Mack's pizza. I agree Mack's pizza is something different and would like to be able to create a Mack's clone.  Only time will tell if we ever will be successful.

Norma

We ate pretty much everywhere, for sure had Mack and Manco's a number of times since it was close to where my g/f at the time worked, good stuff indeed. Sad to think that was 20 years ago and I now live in a pizza deprived area (West Coast), of course that's why I make my own now  :chef:
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 09, 2010, 12:41:28 PM
Sad to think that was 20 years ago and I now live in a pizza deprived area (West Coast), of course that's why I make my own now  :chef:

CAPSLOCK,

I also remembered the Mack's pizza from more than 20 years ago.  I didn't know the West Coast was such a pizza deprived area.  I think you would be able to get better results in making your own pizzas.  Great you are making your own pizzas.   :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 13, 2010, 10:47:05 AM
Funny,
I was just at the Wildwood Acme getting breakfast supplies and thought I would see what they had in the cheese dept.  They had Acme brand Longhorn mild white cheddar cheese!! Of course I had to buy a couple pounds.  It was $1.88 for 8 ounces.  I will try it Fathers day on my next macks attempt.

Have a great day all!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2010, 11:08:02 AM
Funny,
I was just at the Wildwood Acme getting breakfast supplies and thought I would see what they had in the cheese dept.  They had Acme brand Longhorn mild white cheddar cheese!! Of course I had to buy a couple pounds.  It was $1.88 for 8 ounces.  I will try it Fathers day on my next macks attempt.

Have a great day all!


ERASMO,

That's great you found some Longhorn mild white cheddar cheese.  Did you have any success in making a Mack's clone before, in the taste of the cheese?  I hope your Mack's clone attempt goes well.  :)

Have a great day, too.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 13, 2010, 11:12:21 AM
My past attempts were with mozz and cheddar blended.  This will be my first go at all cheddar.  We will see how it goes and I will post pics.  I wish I could find some gangi sauce close by.  I have been using full red with water salt pepper and oregano.  I also only have all trumps ans so strong flour.  No kyrol.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2010, 11:27:40 AM
My past attempts were with mozz and cheddar blended.  This will be my first go at all cheddar.  We will see how it goes and I will post pics.  I wish I could find some gangi sauce close by.  I have been using full red with water salt pepper and oregano.  I also only have all trumps ans so strong flour.  No kyrol.

ERASMO,

I have tried different brands of mild white cheddar and none of them compare with how Mack's cheese tastes on the pie.  I am soon out of the Gangi Sauce, too.  It can be purchased at Bova Foods.  I am going to try another paste tomato product in some of my future attempts.  I think All Trumps is comparable to Kyrol.  If you need some, let me know, I can purchase it at my local Country Store, in around 5 lb. bags.  It is usually under 2.00.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 13, 2010, 11:32:27 AM
Thanks norma.  If you think the AT is similair than I won't sweat it.

I was by macks last night and checked around back.  It seems they must process there cheese at another location or they are really keeping it a seret. 

We had sams pizza last weekend and they just have all there trash piled up in the back of the store in plain view.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2010, 11:45:39 AM
Thanks norma.  If you think the AT is similair than I won't sweat it.

I was by macks last night and checked around back.  It seems they must process there cheese at another location or they are really keeping it a seret. 

We had sams pizza last weekend and they just have all there trash piled up in the back of the store in plain view.

ERASMO,

All Trumps seems to be similar to me.  It is also a bromated flour with around the same protein content. 

It's good you are still checking for the cheese.  8)  I think the cheese wrappers would be in some of the cardboard containers, broken down.  I did see the big cardboard boxes behind the one Mack's and they had all kinds of broken down cardboard boxes inside one another. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on June 21, 2010, 11:38:58 AM
This thread ROCKS... I keep referring back to the pics. here for inspiration.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2010, 11:50:30 AM
This thread ROCKS... I keep referring back to the pics. here for inspiration.

jever4321,

Thanks for saying this thread Rocks.  :-D  I want to try another attempt at the Mack's clone, but since the weather is getting hotter in my area, haven't done much lately.  Maybe in the next few weeks, I will try another attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on June 21, 2010, 02:01:02 PM
Norma,

Some of your pictures are killing me. I was tempted to eat my laptop the other night. I aspire to make a pie that looks 1/2 as good as yours.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 21, 2010, 05:50:52 PM
Norma,

Some of your pictures are killing me. I was tempted to eat my laptop the other night. I aspire to make a pie that looks 1/2 as good as yours.

jever4321,

LOL, you are funny!  :-D  All you have to do is practice with all the ideas on this forum, for whatever kind of pie you want to make.  It's only been a little over a year ago that I started making any pizza.  I sure didn't know anything about making pizza.  There are many people here willing to help you succeed. 

Best of luck in any kind of pie you want to try.  I will help you whenever I can.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2010, 10:36:17 PM
I found two new videos on YouTube for Mackís pizza.  I donít know if an employee took these videos, but it looks like the person that took these two videos, was behind the counter, in my opinion.  If you look how the pieman is applying the sauce in the first video, it looks different than Peter and I were doing.

In the second video, I still amazes me how flat the dough looks in the stacked pans. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbyeStVlHTo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMtO2W9a-YY

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 05, 2010, 05:43:47 PM
This is another video posted about 1 month ago on You Tube for Mac and Mancos pizza. The video is short, but the pizza can be seen close-up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zq5D8kuah04

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:38:03 PM
After I watched the new videos, I decided I was hungry for another Mackís pizza attempt.  I decided Monday evening to take another stab at trying mixing another dough for a Mackís pizza. When I watched the new videos over and over again, I decided, I didnít really think Mackís pizza uses any standard formula for the sauce and cheese.  I know this has been discussed before in this thread, but the new videos, show even more that they even add the sauce in different ways.  The pieman in the first video was the one I had watched when I visited Wildwood.  It looked on the new video like not as much cheese is placed on first. It still amazes me how easily the piemen open the dough and can twirl it in the air. I know this must take a lot of experience, but with the heat and humidity Wildwood has sometimes it makes me wonder, how they do this all summer. I used the same formula I did in my last attempt in reply #341, but I left the dough cold ferment overnight. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg100438.html#msg100438   

The weathermen were calling for a heat index of around 105 today and I really wasnít happy about going to market and being in the heat all day, without air-conditioning, but since this is my job, and stand holders are expected to be there for customers that come, I went to market. I know from experience with my other stands that when the weather gets this hot, that most people just come until a little after lunch time and get what they need and then leave. When I mixed my regular dough yesterday, the temperature in the market was 93 degrees F.  I knew that when all the doors are open today, the temperature would get hotter and the temperature of market builds up throughout the day.  Being next to a hot oven all day doesnít help either.  Time to take some Excedrin along, because I probably was going to get a headache from the heat.  The temperature at my stand most of the day was 99 degrees F.

I mixed this dough by hand.  I sifted the flour, added all ingredients but the olive oil and kneaded by hand.  The dough came together well.  Adding the olive oil and mixing it by hand took awhile.  First picture is the dough ball after mixing Monday evening. 

Pinocchio decided he had to go along today.  I told him he was really going to be miserable, but he insisted.  I said okay.  I really pressed on the dough like the piemen do.  The dough was easy to twirl.  I purchased some creamy longhorn cheese at market.  All the deli and meat stands have different kinds of longhorn cheese, so I just chose the one I thought looked best.  The dough ball weighed 1 lb. 0.1 oz., weighed on the scale at market.  The pie was dressed with sauce similar to how the pieman did in one of the videos I posted.  The sauce added weighed 8 oz.  I grated the longhorn cheese and when weighed the weight of the cheese was 7oz. I put less cheese on to start, then added the sauce, then more cheese. The pie was baked in the deck oven.  The baked pie right out of the oven weighed 1lb. 10.4 oz.  I took some pictures while the pie was cooling and on the other pictures it can be seen how the pie loses weight when cooling. 

Pinocchio did enjoy this pie.

Most stand holders left early today, because not many customers were at market later today.  I was happy to get home in the air-conditioning.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:39:39 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:41:15 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:42:50 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:44:20 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:47:01 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 07:48:12 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2010, 08:06:23 PM
Norma,

When I looked at the pizza in the last video you posted, I can't say that I was impressed. Your latest pizza, on the other hand, looks much, much better. How did it taste and do you think the dough formulation you used is getting you closer to a Mack's clone?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 08:30:21 PM
Peter,

Thanks for saying the pizza I made today looks better than Mackís pizza.  It was good and in my opinion the crust was good.  I think letting the dough cold ferment for one day helped the crust. I enjoyed the pizza today.  I brought home two slices to reheat, so I will be able to study them more. The cheese still has me puzzled though.  I have so many kinds of longhorn cheese to try, but still am not sure if Mackís uses longhorn cheese. Some of the longhorn cheeses are softer than others. The taste of the cheese still isnít right.  The longhorn cheese was oily, but there is something missing in the taste of the cheese compared to Mackís.  This will continue to bug me.
The dough formulation does seem closer to Mackís. I donít know what I would want to change for another attempt. I will have to think about that. I think I enjoyed this crust more than when I ate a real Mackís pizza. 

Other stand holders had slices of this pizza and they really liked it. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 06, 2010, 08:46:12 PM
Just had a thought, Have you tried to float the guy at Mack's a $50 for some "tips" on what type of cheese they use? Just say you're from out of town and you're trying to make it for personal consumption when you can't get to his pizzeria.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 06, 2010, 08:47:15 PM
BTW, more great pics. Looks AWESOME.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2010, 09:16:36 PM
Norma,

There are quite a few people who have been printing out things from this thread, so they must like what they have seen.

Based on the weights you provided, it looks like the unbaked pizza weighed 31.1 ounces (16.1 ounces for the dough, plus 8 ounces for the sauce, and 7 ounces for the cheese). With a fully baked weight of 26.4 ounces (1 lb., 10.4 ounces), the weight loss during baking was a bit more than 15%. My last two Mack's clones had weight losses of 13.5% and 14.5%. That was in my home oven, not a commercial oven.

It also looks like your pizza (16") was scaled in terms of weight in line with the numbers I came up with for an 18" Mack's clone.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 10:01:46 PM
jever4321,

Thanks for saying you liked the pizza and pictures.  :)  LOL, I tried to purchase a dough ball and only could purchase a par-baked pizza.  That par-baked pizza sure wasnít worth the money.  :-D I think they are using some kind of 40 lb. block of the white cheddar.  To find out what kind and then be able to replicate the taste, will be hard.  I have tried many kinds of white cheddar and none of them tastes just like Mackís.  I tried the longhorn cheese today, thinking maybe it would taste more like Mackís, but it didnít.  The longhorn cheese had a good taste.  Even if we find out exactly what cheese Mackís is using, I am not going to purchase a 40 lb. block. Forum members that want to try a pizza like Mackís will need to be able to purchase a cheese that tastes like Mackís. That is why this whole cloning is hard.  First it was the sauce, then the crust, now the cheese is tough.  Mackís is using Kyrol flour and Gangi Sauce. 

Norma

Peter,

Thatís interesting that quite a few people are printing out things from this thread. Hopefully they will like what they print out. I wish we could get this pizza cloned, so other people could also enjoy a pizza like Mackís. I do really like Mackís pizza.
 
Thanks for doing the numbers again, to see if I came close to yours.  I am glad my numbers were in line with yours.

Do you know if baking in a home oven or a deck oven can change the weight loss numbers?  I never thought of that.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2010, 10:25:40 PM
Do you know if baking in a home oven or a deck oven can change the weight loss numbers?  I never thought of that.

Norma,

A home oven has different thermodynamics than a commercial deck oven. Home ovens have more head space than deck ovens and most pizza stones used in home ovens (maybe soapstone is an exception) don't have the same heat storage capacity and retention and recovery times as the thick and massive stones (typically Cordierite) used in most deck ovens. So, I was naturally interested to see the weight loss that you experienced in your deck oven at market.

Remember, also, that I have been using an 18" pizza screen in conjunction with a pizza stone (14" x 16") since that is the only way I can make an 18" pizza in my home oven. I have been looking for a way for folks with ordinary home ovens to be able to make a credible 18" Mack's clone in those ovens with only a few, easy to execute motions. I could scale the Mack's clones to smaller sizes, which would simplify matters greatly, but that would not be a sufficient challenge for me. I'd prefer not to give up on making an 18" clone.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2010, 11:12:55 PM
Peter,

I knew the thermodynamics in a deck oven were different than a home oven, but never thought about how that would change the weight loss.  At least these two clones threads are teaching me more about different things.  My deck oven was at 525 degrees F and I know if I baked this same pie at home, I probably would get different results.  I will have to try this same recipe at home and see if there is a difference in the weight loss.  I know my baked time will probably be longer, because my home oven doesnít have the same head space or stone mass as the deck oven. 

What really intrigues me is, when using my regular preferment for the Lehmann dough in the BBQ set-up and also in the deck oven, I can get similar results, with using different baked temperatures.  If I let my regular preferment for the Lehmann dough a little thicker and have more rim at market, I can also get big bubbles in the rim.  Even with making cheesy breadsticks and the dough is put on parchment paper, in a aluminum pan, there also can be a big airy rim and that dough is opened up the same as the regular 16" pies I make.  I havenít been able to figure this out, but am going to keep watching to see what is going on.

I remember that you are using an 18" pizza screen in conjunction with a smaller pizza stone.  I also know you are always looking for a challenge.  At some point I will also try an 18" Mackís clone. 
   
Thanks for the explanation,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Jerry on July 07, 2010, 10:11:27 PM
Peter, Norma, ERASMO, and all the other contributors to this thread,

I just got done reading this entire thread. What a story! Corporate spying, flim flam artists, insiders, research and development, the jersey shore, the boardwalk, and best of all Mack & Mancos! This is a real nail-biter. Will they find the grail? I can't wait to find out! In all seriousness, I would go to see a movie about your adventures. It wouldn't be a typical Hollywood movie with lots of sex and violence, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. I guess I have the advantage of being able to picture in my mind's eye most of what you describe. I went to Wildwood as a kid, then took my kids to Ocean City. We all love M&M. It is the standard that all other pizza shops have to live up to in the other places we've lived (and they always fall short). I have been googling M&M ever since there was an internet, to see if there was any recipe info, and finally here it is. I'm really rooting for you, and I will probably try one of your interim recipes. I tried to reproduce an M&M a long time ago, but I was way off. My wife always said there was cheddar cheese involved. Hopefully I can help you all by trying some of your recipes and giving some feedback. Anyway, keep up the good work!

Jerry
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2010, 11:03:11 PM
Jerry,

Itís been a great journey to find how out how Mac and Mancos or Mackís pizza might be able to be reverse-engineered.  Everyone has been helpful along the way.  I hope you also join us in the search for a clone pie.  Everyone that has tried their pies can be a great help.  At least you know how they are supposed to taste.  I can relate to your story of this type of pie being the standard that other pizza shops have to live up to.  That is what I thought for many years.  Your wife must have good taste buds if she knew there must have been some cheddar in the pie.  I never would have thought that, until I started researching about Mackís or Mac and Mancos pizza.

Yes, this whole thread is about spying, flim flam artists, insiders, research, development, the Jersey shore, the boardwalk and also the biggest star is the pizza.  Who knows what might come next.  :-D I appreciate you took the time to read this whole thread.  It must have taken you awhile.  I'm sure everyone on this thread appreciates what you have said.  Picturing in your mind all the great things the Jersey Shore has to offer is all about memories about what you grew up with and you have even now given your children memories they never will forget.  I am glad you also had a great time at the Jersey Shore and enjoyed the NJ Boardwalk pizza.

Thanks for the kind comments,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 08, 2010, 08:26:37 AM
I tried using the Acme brand longhorn mild white cheddar on a pizza the other day and the cheese flavor was definately close to the macks cheese flavor.  I would recommend giving it a try.

Norma,

The latest attempts look great!!

Are you still using the same dough formulation?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2010, 08:49:23 AM
ERASMO,

Thanks for telling us the Acme brand of longhorn mild white cheddar does get close to the Mackís pizza taste.  I donít think there are any Acmeís supermarkets around my area any more, but will check.  How many types of longhorn mild white cheddar have you tried?

This is the current formula I used for the clone attempt on Tuesday. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg100438.html#msg100438   

I mixed the dough by hand on Monday and cold fermented it until Tuesday.  I really pressed the dough out by hand first, then opened the skin.  It did seem to open up easily and also could be twirled.  I am still thinking about what I could change.  The higher oil percentage seemed to help. In my opinion the dough cold fermented for one day seemed to help make the crust taste much better and closer to a real Mackís pizza.

Thanks for saying the recent attempt looked great,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 08, 2010, 09:04:15 AM
Norma

This was my first try at 100% longhorn mild white.  I have tried combinations using Grande East coast blend and sharp cheddar mixed about 50/50 and it was a good flavor but not Macks flavor. 

Next time I go and get the Acme cheddar I will get some extra, freeze and UPS to you. I am in Chester county so shipping will be fast. Please PM me your best address.  I am anxious for you to try!

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2010, 09:21:10 AM
Norma

This was my first try at 100% longhorn mild white.  I have tried combinations using Grande East coast blend and sharp cheddar mixed about 50/50 and it was a good flavor but not Macks flavor. 

Next time I go and get the Acme cheddar I will get some extra, freeze and UPS to you. I am in Chester county so shipping will be fast. Please PM me your best address.  I am anxious for you to try!



ERASMO,

I know I had the same experiences in all the mild white cheddars that I tried before and while they are good on a pizza, but not the taste of Mackís pizza.  I think for the cheese to be so oily like Mackís, it needs to be high in fat.  If you think about the next time you purchase some cheese see if the label is on how much fat is in the longhorn mild white cheddar or ask someone behind the deli counter if they know how much fat is in the Acme brand.

I will PM you my address, but will also look in my area if there are any Acme supermarkets anymore.  There used to be many in my area, but canít remember where there are any at the moment.  I let you know if I find any Acmeís in my area.

I am also anxious to try out the Acme brand of longhorn mild white cheddar since you said it tastes close to the real Mackís pizza.  :)

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 09, 2010, 04:13:31 PM
I didn't take the time to read the entire thread, (so I appologize if this has beed discussed and since I have never had mack's pizza I'm just guessing here.) but have you tried to put some grated Pecorino & Ramano cheese on your pie?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 09, 2010, 04:29:10 PM
Jason,

Mack's does not use Pecorino Romano or any other Romano cheese on its pizzas but I have used it to make clones of Papa Gino's pizzas. PG uses a blend of mozzarella cheese, white cheddar cheese and grated Romano cheese. It is a great blend.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 09, 2010, 04:46:43 PM
Jason,

Mack's does not use Pecorino Romano or any other Romano cheese on its pizzas but I have used it to make clones of Papa Gino's pizzas. PG uses a blend of mozzarella cheese, white cheddar cheese and grated Romano cheese. It is a great blend.

Peter

That's the cheese blend I'm using tonight. P&R gives a nice sharp flavor.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 09, 2010, 09:58:03 PM
My daughter drove me to Downingtown, Pa. Acme tonight to get some Acme Longhorn Style Mild Cheddar Cheese to use on the next attempt for a Mack's pizza.  On the back of the package it says the Longhorn Style Mild Cheddar Cheese is distributed by Albertsons, Inc. Boise, Idaho.  The cheese has 9 grams of fat.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on July 09, 2010, 11:47:19 PM
wow, 9 grams.   Ill bet thats exactly what you have been looking for.   No wonder people love macs pizza so much!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2010, 07:32:25 AM
wow, 9 grams.   Ill bet thats exactly what you have been looking for.   No wonder people love macs pizza so much!

scott r,

ERASMO is the member that mentioned he had tried the Acme brand of longhorn style of mild white cheddar.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg102999.html#msg102999
   
The taste of Mackís cheese is what is so puzzling.  Mackís probably does purchase their cheese in 40 lb. blocks.  That is why we are having problems trying to replicate the taste of their cheese.  I think the higher fat will help in this next attempt. This Acme Brand, does look a lot different, than what I purchased for my last attempt.  I didnít open it up and taste it, but will before I try the cheese on the next attempt.

I will research more about private label cheeses for Albertsonís and see if I can find out what company in Wisconsin might be providing Albertsonís with the private label longhorn style mild white cheddar cheese.  That might take awhile.  Private labeling is a big business for many food items.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2010, 09:47:34 AM
After a little searching with Google, I found out some about how big private labeling is for cheeses.  This is one of the companies that provide private labeling for cheese.  It looks like they are a big player in the market of private labeling and sell to many fast food drive-ins, food retailers, schools, colleges, and many other places.

http://www.answers.com/topic/schreiber-foods-inc

In my opinion if we ever find a cheese to taste like Mackís pizza on the retail level, it is going to be hard for members or guests to find a cheese that tastes like Mackís all over the country.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 10, 2010, 09:58:16 AM
On the topic of the Mild White Cheddar the problem I am running into is being able to buy in smaller quantities.  There are three pizza supply distributors around me that all sell a different Wisc. White Mild Cheddar but nothing smaller than 40lb block.

Maybe I need to call some of the producers and see if they can provide samples.

I called the Grande Company and the sales rep. delivered a few nice small sample bags for us to try.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: thezaman on July 10, 2010, 10:08:24 AM
we have a pizzeria that my supplier sells to that uses white cheddar that he mixes with mozzarella .his pizza is very popular in our area. they sell it under the name of yala block ,yala being the pizzeria name . it comes in a 5 pound block similar to a block of mozzarella .i think it is available for sale to any account, if you want i could ship a block on dry ice. i think it makes the pizza very oily ,but that is what his cusomers love about it.pm if you want me to work on this.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2010, 10:16:51 AM
ERASMO,

I have also run into the same problem.  I did get Foremost Farms to send me a sample, but the blend wasnít an all cheddar.  They do sell 40 lb. blocks of white cheddar, but donít even have samples in smaller amounts.

Best of luck to you in getting samples and then sampling them on your attempts to make a Mackís pizza. In my opinion if we are ever going to find a cheese similar to how Mackís tastes like, it is going to be hard to find it around many areas for forum members or guests that want to try a Mackís clone pizza. 

Maybe it wonít be impossible, but in my opinion it will be hard.

Norma

thezaman,

Thanks for saying you would ship some white cheddar.  I had purchased a 5 lb. block of white cheddar from my distributor and it was oily, but still didnít have the taste of Mackís cheese.  In my opinion there are so many brands of mild white cheddar, even in wholesale.  We could be trying 5 lb. blocks for a long while and still not find the right one. 
I will think about what you just mentioned.

Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 10, 2010, 10:31:35 AM
Norma,

You might recall in an earlier post, at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97026/topicseen.html#msg97026, I mentioned that I found white cheddar cheeses in my local supermarkets that had 10 grams of fat and 11 grams of fat. However, most were around 9 grams. So, what you have found with the Acme brand is pretty standard from a fat content standpoint.

I am very familiar with Schreiber. They are the second largest cheese producer in the world. I used to use one of their mongrel brand mozzarella cheeses, Best Choice, until the store where I purchased that cheese changed hands. The store was a former Albertson's company.

As best I can tell, Acme Markets is a part of a mega-retail company called SUPERVALU, which is an aggregation of many local and regional store brands. When Albertson's pulled out of several markets around the country, including most of their Texas properties, SUPERVALU purchased many of their stores.

It will be interesting to see if you agree with ERASMO on his assessment of the Acme cheese.

As far as the availability issue is concerned, that is likely only to be an issue for those who have had the Mack's pizzas before. There are many very good white cheddar cheeses around that have very nice flavors and should serve one well even if not a clone of the Mack's white cheddar cheese. In my case, I would like to find a white cheddar cheese that doesn't break down too much during baking and oil off excessively.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2010, 10:47:42 AM
Peter,

Different mild white cheddars or sharp white cheddars were oily, but the taste of Mackís pizza is really different because of the taste of the cheese.  I donít think it really the crust or sauce that makes it that special, but in my opinion it is the cheese. 

I am also interested in trying the Acme brand and seeing how that tastes compared to Mackís cheese.  If I have time this coming Monday, I will make another dough, to try at market on Tuesday. 

I do remember you mentioning how high the fat content was of the other cheeses you had look at.

That is interesting to find out that Acme Markets could be part of the company called SUPERVALU.  There are so many companies that are owned by bigger companies. 

If we can ever find out the specific brand of cheese that Mackís pizza is using, then in my opinion we could go from there and see if the company produces the cheese to the retail market or some private label company that would then sell it to local supermarkets.  Might require some more DD.

After I was looking at different private label companies I saw it looked like Schreiber was a big player in the cheese market.

Hopefully some day we will find a cheese that most members or guests can find.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 09:37:40 PM
I want to thank ERASMO for telling me to try the Acme Brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar.  ;D  This cheese really comes very close to how a Mackís pie tastes and looks in terms of the cheese.  Steve and I tasted the cheese earlier to see how it tastes and now I know if I try another brand of cheese, what this is supposed to taste like.  It even melts like Mackís cheese and is oily, when using this cheese in a Mack's style pizza.

I did change the formula by just one variable.  I decreased the IDY to see if there would be less bubbles in the skin.  This formula was for a 16" clone style Mackís pizza.

Flour (100%):    284.64 g  |  10.04 oz | 0.63 lbs
Water (55%):                156.55 g  |  5.52 oz | 0.35 lbs
IDY (0.25%):         0.71 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.24 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (2%):                     5.69 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.02 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Olive Oil (6%):       17.08 g | 0.6 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.8 tsp | 1.27 tbsp
Sugar (2%):         5.69 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.43 tsp | 0.48 tbsp
Total (165.25%):    470.37 g | 16.59 oz | 1.04 lbs | TF = 0.08252

In my opinion this was the closest attempt to a Mackís pizza to date, that I achieved. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 09:39:25 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 09:41:10 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 09:42:26 PM
last of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 13, 2010, 10:01:57 PM
Holy cow Norma, There are no words to describe the beauty of that pie...

Simply AWESOME looking pie.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 13, 2010, 10:29:58 PM
Holy cow Norma, There are no words to describe the beauty of that pie...

Simply AWESOME looking pie.

jever4321,

Thanks for saying this attempt was awesome looking.  This has been my best attempt so far in terms of the taste of a real Mack's pizza, especially the cheese part.  I mixed this dough yesterday by hand, so this pie isn't hard to make. 

I will have to start searching where the private label company is, that might be producing this Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jever4321 on July 13, 2010, 11:08:26 PM
jever4321,

Thanks for saying this attempt was awesome looking.  This has been my best attempt so far in terms of the taste of a real Mack's pizza, especially the cheese part.  I mixed this dough yesterday by hand, so this pie isn't hard to make. 

I will have to start searching where the private label company is, that might be producing this Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar. 

Norma
Keep up the good work. You can call me Jay, or J.
It's easier to type. :D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 14, 2010, 07:43:48 AM
Norma

Pie looks great!

Glad you liked the acme longhorn cheese.

I would love to have tasted it.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 14, 2010, 07:52:01 AM
Norma

Pie looks great!

Glad you liked the acme longhorn cheese.

I would love to have tasted it.

ERASMO,

I did really like the Acme longhorn cheese.  ;D  It is really close to the taste of Mack's pizza.  Thank you so much for finding this cheese.  :)  This longhorn cheese is a lot different than the other mild white cheddars I tried before.  I wish you could have been at market to try this pie. 

Thanks for all your investigating and your help in trying to clone this pizza,  :)

Norma

I contacted SUPERVALU at two places and ask them about the Acme Brand of Longhorn Style of mild white cheddar cheese and if they distribute this same cheese under a private label to different states in the US or if their other stores might also carry this same kind of cheese.

http://www.supervalu-storebrands.com/contactus.asp#

http://www.supervalu.com/sv-webapp/contact/contact.jsp

Two places listed where it appears that these are the companies owned by SUPERVALU

http://www.supervalu.com/sv-webapp/

http://www.supervalu.com/sv-webapp/retail/retail.jsp

I will wait and see if SUPERVALU contacts me about private labeling or if they might also carry this same brand of cheese under another label in different places in the US.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 14, 2010, 10:25:53 AM
Norma,

I'm glad to hear that you closed the gap some more with the Acme cheese. Maybe in due course you can offer a Mack's clone from time to time at market, particularly if you can find a foodservice source of the cheese or an equivalent. It certainly would be  nice to find other retail sources of the cheese.

At some point you might also try dialing back the amount of oil and sugar to reduce the softness of the crust. You could offset a decreasae in the oil by an increase in the hydration if the dough is too stiff.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 14, 2010, 11:33:21 AM
Peter,

The funny thing about that Mackís clone pizza that I made yesterday was I had put the pizza in the heated, humidified cabinet, after trying two slices.  Two men came up and asked what kind of pizza the Mackís clone was.  I asked them if they ever go to the shore.  They said yes, and said the  Mackís clone pizza looked just like a Grotto Pizza they buy in Rehoboth Beach, Delaware.  They each bought a slice and said it tasted like Grottoís pizza.  I have never tasted Grottoís pizza, but had to chuckle to myself.  I thought O no, not another kind of pizza clone.   :-D Of course I had to look up what a Grotto Pizza looked like, this morning. Another shore pizza.  http://www.grottopizza.com/content/page-17.html   http://www.grottopizza.com/content/page-9.html

Hopefully I can find out where other people can purchase the same kind of cheese ERASMO and I tried. I did contact SUPERVALU and I did receive one response and am going to provide all the information to see if this will lead anywhere.  This is the email I received this morning.

Dear Ms. Norma,

Thank you for contacting us regarding the Cheese that you are looking for. We
appreciate the opportunity to assist you.

At this time, if you could provide as much of the following product information
as possible, we can look into the availability of this product and the
information you are requesting:

Lot Code:
Any other information you have about the product:
Date last purchased:
Store address including zip code of the store that you purchased this product
from:
Product Size or weight:

If we may be of further assistance, please contact customer care at
1-877-932-7948 or via email.

Sincerely,
Fritz B.
Customer Care Specialist

The hydration of this recent attempt seemed okay and the dough was easily opened and twirled.  Maybe in my next attempt, I will dial back the sugar and let the oil the same to see what kind of results I will get. The crust did taste like a Mack's pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 14, 2010, 11:53:39 AM
Norma,

If you do a Google image search, you will find some photos of Grotto pizzas. Here are a few examples:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/2b/fd/0d/grotto-pizza-from-bear.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/54/c6/08/large-grotto-pizza-at.jpg

http://www.hollyzell.com/images/munchpizza3.gif

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 14, 2010, 12:27:20 PM
Norma,

If you do a Google image search, you will find some photos of Grotto pizzas. Here are a few examples:

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/2b/fd/0d/grotto-pizza-from-bear.jpg

http://media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-s/01/54/c6/08/large-grotto-pizza-at.jpg

http://www.hollyzell.com/images/munchpizza3.gif

Peter

Peter,

Those photos you found do really look like a Mack's pizza, and although they do look tasty, there is no way I am going to try another clone pizza. I wonder if they also use a mild white cheddar for the cheese.

I have also been to Rehoboth Beach many times when my children were small, because we owned a trailer near Lewes Beach we vacationed at in the summertime. We went crabbing and had fun there, but I can't ever recall eating a Grotto's pizza.  It's weird how Mack's pizza has stuck in my mind.  I guess I had it since my childhood, and over the years, so that might be why it has stuck in my mind.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 15, 2010, 07:21:38 AM
I did reply to my email to SUPERVALU asking for all the information about the Acme cheese I purchased.  I had asked about purchasing this same product under a private label in different parts of the US.  This is the email of what they replied to me.

Dear Norma,

Thank you for contacting us regarding the requested information. We appreciate
the opportunity to assist you.

I created a case and have forwarded it to the appropriate department for further
follow-up. Please expect contact back regarding this matter within 24 hours. If
you have any additional comments, questions, or concerns regarding this matter,
please contact us at the customer service number below and refer to case
1-238251598.

We strive for continued customer satisfaction and sincerely appreciate you
taking the time to contact us regarding this matter.

If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to contact our customer
service center at 1-877-932-7948. 

Sincerely,


Marian L.
Customer Care Specialist

[THREAD ID:1-3XUK43]

I also contacted Schreiber Foods (cheese) to see if they might be the private label that provides the Acme private label brand cheese.  I gave them the exact type of cheese I purchased. I donít know if they are the company that provides private label cheese to  SUPERVALU for Acme.. I will wait and see if they also reply to me.

http://www.schreiberfoods.com/schreiberweb/contactschreiber/contactfoodservice.aspx?MenuID=ContactFoodservice
         
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 15, 2010, 05:37:24 PM
Colleen, a customer care specialist called me at home this afternoon and talked to me about what supermarkets under the SUPERVALU name carry the same brand of cheese that ERASMO and I purchased at Acme.  She said that Jewel carries it under their private label in the midwest and western states.  Albertsonís carries it in the western and south central and southern states, and Shaws carries the same cheese in the northeastern states.  I asked her if the private label company is Schreiber Foods that does distribute this cheese to all the SUPERVALU stores under them.  She said the person that sent her the information didnít state who supplies the cheese under the private label.

I donít know if other people will be able to locate this cheese under a private label around the US, but it is worth a shot, if you want to try a cheese like ERASMO and I tried.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 16, 2010, 01:34:17 PM
I just hung up with acme and they said there Longhorn Mild White Cheddar comes from a company called Masters Gallery.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 16, 2010, 05:19:35 PM
I just hung up with acme and they said there Longhorn Mild White Cheddar comes from a company called Masters Gallery.

ERASMO,

Thanks for that information.  ;D  I will search and see what kind of company that is.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2010, 08:21:25 AM


I looked on the web, after ERASMO called Acme and found out that Masters Gallery Food (cheese) is the company that supplies the longhorn style mild white cheddar to Acme.  They do provide private label cheese to retail supermarkets. 
               
I did contact Masters Gallery and asked them different questions.  I will wait and see if I get a response.

http://www.mastersgalleryfoods.com/pages/contact.html

http://www.mastersgalleryfoods.com/pages/ftp/MastersGalleryFoods_CheeseMarketNews_8.14.09.pdf

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 17, 2010, 09:05:58 AM
That's funny!
I also contacted them!
They were curious how I found out that they sold acme!

They seem to be heavily involved in the pizza industry.
I am waiting for info on there longhorn cheddars available.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2010, 09:15:06 AM
That's funny!
I also contacted them!
They were curious how I found out that they sold acme!

They seem to be heavily involved in the pizza industry.
I am waiting for info on there longhorn cheddars available.

ERASMO,

That is funny we both contacted Masters Gallery Foods.   :-D Let us know what you find out.

Thanks for all your help with this thread,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 21, 2010, 10:11:28 AM

I awoke Pinocchio up early this morning, after I received a reply from Schreiber Foods Inc.  He wanted to see what Schreiber Foods had to say about the longhorn style mild white cheddar cheese I purchased at Acme.  He didnít even get dressed or comb his hair, because he was excited to see if this type of cheese could be purchased all over the US.  I printed Pinocchio a copy of the email for him to read.  He also wants other members or guests to be able to try the same kind of longhorn style white cheddar that ERASMO and I tried.

This is the email where Schreiber Foods responded to me and the same one Pinocchio read.

Hi Norma,

I received your inquiry as to where you might be able to track down the Acme brand longhorn style mild white cheddar cheese. Unfortunately, the product that Schreiber produces that would fit this description is yellow. Eastern Pennsylvania would be the best place to get the white product, but other than that, the ability to get white cheddar across the US is not very good.


If there is anything else I can help you with, please let me know and I would be more than happy to do so.

Thank you.

Morgan Faase
Inside Sales Manager
Schreiber Foods Inc.
425 Pine Street
Green Bay, WI 54307-9019
P.O. Box 19010
Phone: (920) 455-6383

Cell: 920-634-9104

Fax: (920) 455-6079
[email protected]

Since it seems this type of white cheddar is only available around our area, I donít know if members want me to pursue this farther or not.  If anyone wants me to respond, let me know and I will question how the yellow cheddar compares with the white cheddar and if the taste of the yellow cheddar are the same as the white cheddar.

As of right now, I havenít receive a response from Master Gallery Cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 23, 2010, 09:30:16 AM
These are two videos on YouTube that were recently added about a Gathering at Mackís Pizza in Wildwood on August 11, 2010.  These two teenagers are talking about meeting at Mackís and doing a YouTube video from there.  It will be interesting to see what kind of video they produce.  They call themselves the Replyers.  LOL..what some people do for YouTube cracks me up. They say in the second video, they are going to meet in the down bar, which would be the main floor off the boardwalk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qeFPP4sDbKs

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJFa3KgbTPw

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 23, 2010, 09:53:53 PM
This is a video uploaded on YouTube July 20, 2010.  If you stop the video at 15 seconds, you can get a close-up of Mack and Mancoís Pizza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMWpbkwUBwU

Another video from Mack and Mancos uploaded on YouTube July 9, 2010.  If you look what the person that posted this video says, it says the temperature inside Mack and Mancoís was about 110 degrees that night.  It still wonders me, how the dough doesnít overferment when it is so hot and humid at both Mackís and Mack and Mancoís.   ::)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Km_KuIlIb2s

As can been seen in both of these videos, they crust is soft and not crunchy or crispy.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: AOBuz on July 24, 2010, 11:38:47 AM
Hi, long time viewer, first time poster here.  I'm from Iowa but I have grown up going to the east coast every year and fell in love with Grotto and Mack and Manco's (but especially Mack and Manco's).  I have enjoyed this thread very much and has helped me develop a thin hand tossed recipe of my own.
But I am struggling with the texture however.  The taste is great but I'm having a hard time getting the bottom crust crispy enough like M&M.  Granted I don't have a Rotoflex.  I've tried 3 different stones, several different temps, and tweeks to the recipe but the bottom often comes out a little under done.  I've even let the oven preheat for almost 2 hours.  Any ideas or is this the best I can hope for without having a baking oven?
Thanks
Aaron
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 24, 2010, 12:25:02 PM
As can been seen in both of these videos, they crust is soft and not crunchy or crispy.

Norma,

I don't know how Mack's delivers its pizzas to the tables but it is possible that the escaping moisture from the cooling pizza is deflected back into the pizza, making the crust softer and wetter. That is a common problem with home-delivery pizza. What you want to replicate is a Mack's pizza just out of the oven.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 24, 2010, 12:49:41 PM
AOBuz,

Welcome to the forum.  I am glad you have been able to develop a thin hand tossed recipe of your own.  I donít know why you are having problems getting the bottom crisp enough for your taste.  What oven rack positions did you try, while baking on the stone?  I have tried different rack positions in my home oven and can get a partly crispy crust, something like Mackís. My home oven will only go a little over 500 degrees F, and I donít usually have any problems with the bottom not being crispy enough for my taste. Did you try a longer bake at a lower temperature? I have never tasted Mack and Mancoís pizza, so I donít know if there is any difference in the bottom crust from Mackís pizza.  I donít know what kind of formula you are using, but if you post it maybe we can help you, with diagnosing what the problem might be. Did you add any sugar, to your formula?  This could also help the bottom crust get more crispy, in my opinion.

I just had one question to ask, if you donít mind telling me about Grottoís pizza.  I never remembered eating their pizza, but how much difference is there is the taste, between the Mack and Mancoís pizza and Grottoís?

Norma

Peter,

Mackís pizza just delivers the pie to the table on a pizza pan.  Even Mackís pie, right out of the oven are different, but I just canít explain how they are different.  They are somewhat soft, especially around the rim, with a little crispness to the bottom crust.  The pie slices we took back to where we were staying, when we were in Wildwood, also had that same softness to the rim.  I can see how bringing the pie already hot, on the pan,  right to the table can then make the crust softer.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 12:23:36 PM
I had contacted Master Gallery Foods (cheese a little while ago, 2 times) about the Acme Brand of longhorn style white cheddar cheese, after ERASMO said he had called Acme and found out that is who the private label company was that supplied Acme the private label cheese. I received an email today from Jim Jirschele VicePresident-Food Service.  The email gave me his numbers to contact him.  I called Jim and talked to him about the Acme Brand of longhorn style white cheddar cheese. We talked for awhile about why I wanted to find out about this cheese and I told him that I was on a pizza making forum and wanted other members or guests to be able to find this same kind or taste of mild cheddar cheese across the country and be able to purchase it in a supermarket.  I said we didnít know the specific kind of white cheddar that Mackís uses, but since ERASMO and I tried this Acme brand of longhorn style of white cheddar cheese and found it to taste almost like Mackís cheese, that is why I was calling to see if there could be any other information on this cheese.  I said even if we found out the exact brand Mackís pizza is using, I didnít think we would then be able to locate it in smaller amounts than a 40 lb. block. He said that isnít necessarily true, that sometimes the cheese that is sold in larger amounts can be purchased in smaller amounts at a supermarket.  Jim said it might take awhile, but he was going to look into the cheese and see what he could find out.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on July 30, 2010, 12:44:40 PM
Norma
Thats exciting news!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 30, 2010, 01:20:02 PM
Norma
Thats exciting news!!

ERASMO,

I donít know if it is exciting news or not as of this time.   ::)  Jim was very helpful, and said he was going to go over to the storage place where they store all the cheese and look into the specific brand like you purchased first.  He said he then would go from there, when he found the cheese and see what stores have this same cheese shipped to them or a cheese that is similar in taste.  I also said to Jim, that I know it seems hard to find longhorn cheeses in some parts of the Country and said I know our area uses a lot of longhorn cheese.  He then said, yes people in this part of the country do like longhorn cheese.  He said he would do his best to find out the information for us. I would love to go into one of those private label cheese plants and be able to taste all their cheeses.  :-D

Norma   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on July 31, 2010, 04:24:54 PM
Hi,
 I have been following this forum closely since I grew up in South Jersey and now live in TX and would visit Mack and Manco's in Ocean City every summer into my 30's and again when I get a chance to visit. Thanks to all for the dedication and research. I have been to our four major supermarkets here (Albertons's being the Acme affiliate) and was only able to find mild white cheddar in small packages at Tom Thumb supermarket. Here I am in the Lone Star State and could not find anything labled "Longhorn". Go figure. Keep up the good work. I'll be following.

ERASMO,

I donít know if it is exciting news or not as of this time.   ::)  Jim was very helpful, and said he was going to go over to the storage place where they store all the cheese and look into the specific brand like you purchased first.  He said he then would go from there, when he found the cheese and see what stores have this same cheese shipped to them or a cheese that is similar in taste.  I also said to Jim, that I know it seems hard to find longhorn cheeses in some parts of the Country and said I know our area uses a lot of longhorn cheese.  He then said, yes people in this part of the country do like longhorn cheese.  He said he would do his best to find out the information for us. I would love to go into one of those private label cheese plants and be able to taste all their cheeses.  :-D

Norma   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 31, 2010, 04:35:41 PM
njbruce,

Welcome to the forum.  :) Sorry, you have to run around to so many supermarkets to try and find white cheddar. It seems to be more popular here in he East.  I donít know why, but I guess each state has their own kinds of cheese or other foods they like. 

I am glad you have been to Mack and Mancoís, so then if you also try this pizza, you will be able to report back if the tastes are similar.  Let us know if you try one of these formulas.

Best of luck and we will keep working on this,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on July 31, 2010, 11:59:48 PM
Norma,
  I have just made your dough according to weight (I even sent away for a digital gram scale on ebay which arrived yesterday). I mixed it in the Cuisinart processor and kneaded it in our Kitchenaid mixer for ten minutes. I am letting the dough rise now and will place it in the refrigerator for 5 days after punching it down. I plan to combine my low moisture mozzarella with the mild white cheddar that I found in a 50/50 combo. I have several varieties of canned crushed tomatoes but I have also sent away for cans of 6 in One to make sauce. I'll get back with pictures and a review once I get the first one made.
  I'm lucky to say that we have good NY/Philly style pizza here due to NY and NJ transplant family establishments. Our family only buys out from them. Mack and Manco's is another story and they are a good 1500 miles away. LOL. Again, thanks for your work. I will update. :chef:
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2010, 01:24:53 AM
njbruce,

Thatís great you are making your own dough and even purchased a digital gram scale.  I am not sure about the rise part, since I usually ball and cold ferment right after the mix..  I donít do any punch downs. I am not sure if you used my formula, if the dough will last for five days, while cold fermenting.  I usually use the dough within a few days.  Mackís, and I guess Mack and Mancoís use Gangi Sauce.  That is like a tomato paste.  I had purchased the real Gangi Sauce and it is really thick.  It needs to be watered down.  I have some 6 in 1 sauce and the taste of that is sweeter, in my opinion.  To me the Gangi Sauce tastes more like a WalMart tomato paste.  I think, but am not sure that Mackís and Mack and Mancos just uses pepper and oregano for seasoning for their sauce.  When I tasted the Gangi Sauce, it has a little bitter taste to me, but when used on the pizza, the flavor changes. 

Itís good you do have good New York/Philly style pizza where you live.  I have never been to Mack and Mancoís, but I hear their pizzas taste the same as Mackís pizza.  Itís funny how you can remember the taste of a Mack and Mancoís pizza.  That is the same as me.  I had remembered the taste of their pizzas for many years and used to compare all pizzas with theirs.  Sorry you canít be closer to try their pie, again.   

Best of luck with your clone Mack and Mancoís pizza.  :)

Let us all know how it turns out.   

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 01, 2010, 01:50:07 AM
Norma,

  I'll update. While waiting I have a humorous story. I have a great friend from Staten Island who arrived in TX before I did. He told me of his firxt venture to a pizzaria here in Texas. He appoached the counter and ordered "two pies" and what he wanted as toppings. He was politely told that if he wanted "pies" he would have to go the the nearest supermarket.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 01, 2010, 07:24:00 AM
Norma,

  I'll update. While waiting I have a humorous story. I have a great friend from Staten Island who arrived in TX before I did. He told me of his firxt venture to a pizzaria here in Texas. He appoached the counter and ordered "two pies" and what he wanted as toppings. He was politely told that if he wanted "pies" he would have to go the the nearest supermarket.

njbruce,

LOL, That was a humorous story.  In different parts of the country, they sure do call pizzas different names.  I didnít know in Texas they werenít called ďpiesĒ.  :o

I just posted this recently. How to Order a Slice of Pizza in NYC
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11406.msg104031.html#msg104031
    
My youngest daughter lives in Brooklyn, NY.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on August 02, 2010, 07:07:38 AM
Was at Mack and Mancos yesterday in Ocean City and confirmed the use of the Gangi Sauce at that store also (dumpster diving).
Could not spot the cheese boxes!!!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2010, 07:34:18 AM
Was at Mack and Mancos yesterday in Ocean City and confirmed the use of the Gangi Sauce at that store also (dumpster diving).
Could not spot the cheese boxes!!!!

ERASMO,

You are quite the detective.  8)  That confirms that both Mack's and Mack and Manco's both use the Gangi sauce.  Thanks for you continued help.  I wish I could have been there to help with the dumpster diving.  Those darn cheese boxes.  I think, but don't know, that the cheese wouldn't be in boxes, just somehow there would be some kind of plastic wrap from the cheese.  Was the taste of Mack and Manco's pizza the same as Mack's pizza?

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 02, 2010, 09:01:15 PM
Hello again. Erasmo, since you confirmed Gangi sauce I found it on supremedairyfarms.com web site and interestingly enough they have a cheddar/mozzerella blend listed on the same page (since I am a new member, I am not allowed yet to post a hyperlink but they are both on the first page of the product catalog.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 02, 2010, 09:19:14 PM
Here is the link to the catalog: http://www.supremedairyfarms.com/pdf/SupremeCatalog.pdf. It should be noted, however, that the catalog is a food service/wholesale catalog. Supreme Dairy Farms may not sell to individuals. Their home page is at http://www.supremedairyfarms.com/. The photo at http://www.supremedairyfarms.com/available.html shows what appears to be a shredded mild cheddar cheese. Presumably, the Supreme cheeses are sold at retail.

With respect to the cheese, Mack's uses only white cheddar cheese. I would assume that Mack & Manco's uses the same cheese also.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on August 02, 2010, 09:21:25 PM
NJ

Thanks for that info. Looks like a nice supplier!

We are confident that Macks uses purely mild white cheddar.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2010, 09:48:45 PM
njbruce,

I second the thank you.  I will look over the catalog, when I have a little more time.  I also think Mack's and Mack and Manco's only use white cheddar cheese on their pies.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 02, 2010, 10:07:23 PM
Sorry all,
  I must have missed the confirmation of all white cheddar somehow. Anyway, I made my first clone last night using Norma's dough formula with Pillsbury bread flour, the Mozzerella/mild white Cheddar mix and Hunt's 8 oz tomato sauce with garlic and basil applied in hose fashion with a turkey baster. Mixed the dough in the Cuisinart processor and Kneaded for 10 minutes in the Kitchenaid mixer.  I let rise covered for about an hour and it did not increase much. I put it outside for another hour as it is plenty hot down here now even in the evening. Not much more rise. I then put it in the refrigerator for about 24 hours. I rolled the dough out with a pin and placed on the 15" seasoned aluminum pizza pan (I have a stone which I will try next). I layered cheese/sauce/cheese and put ith into the preheated 475 degree oven for 5 minutes. I then took it out and applied several toppings around and baked for another ten.
This is the thinnest crust I have ever produced and very close to what I remember. Thank you. I have several variations I will try including the stone, all white cheddar and baking same day. My picture files are too large this time but I'll have some on my next one!
Thanks again everyone.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 02, 2010, 10:49:39 PM
njbruce,

No need to say youíre sorry.  This thread is long and there is so much to read.  If you have any questions, one of us can answer.  You explanation of how you made your pie was very good.  I am glad you enjoyed your results.  :)  Every pizza takes different tries and different oven configurations.  You are doing a great job in trying out this pie.  ;D Those picture files can get to me also.  I am always trying to change pictures to fit. 

I enjoyed seeing your new avatar.  I really made me laugh.  :-D

Thanks for reporting back what you did and how the bake went.

Best of luck with your next pie and happy pizza making.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Jerry on August 05, 2010, 07:59:47 PM
Hi All,

I posted here once before and I'm still hyped about finding the grail. Recently, I made a clone using the following recipe. This is loosely based on Norma's last clone, plus I tried to make it into a recipe book style recipe. I used the vital gluten because I couldn't readily find high gluten flour. I used a basic canned organic tomato sauce with basil. I used organic mild white cheddar from Whole Foods supermarket (their brand, Sarasota store). The results? Crust too thick. I used pushing and tossing, but no rolling. Next time I will use rolling. The recipe says 16 inches, but I only made a 14 inch. If I rolled it out thinner, I could get it to 15 or 16 inches. Too much sauce. If sauce overpowers the cheese, it ain't gonna taste like M&M. Next time I will use tomato paste and make my own sauce. Cheese was just right. My wife has a very sensitive pallet and she said the cheese was spot on. Better luck next time. Feel free to tweak my recipe.

Makes a 16 inch pizza.

Ĺ tablespoon sugar
Ĺ tsp instant dry yeast
1 ľ tbs olive oil
11 tbs warm water
1 ľ C flour*
1 tsp salt
3 tbs vital gluten
1 C pizza sauce**
8 oz. grated mild white cheddar cheese***
 
1.   Combine sugar, yeast, oil, and water. Mix and let sit for 6-8 minutes.
2.   Combine flour with salt in a bowl, food processor, or mixer.
3.   Pour the water combination into the bowl and mix. Add vital gluten slowly until dough is not too sticky. Form dough into ball after mixing.
4.   Place dough ball in bowl, cover, and refrigerate for at least 24 hours.
5.   Take dough out of refrigerator and let warm to room temperature.
6.   Lightly sprinkle a surface with flour. Turn out dough and knead for around 2-3 minutes. Stretch dough out from center with rapid motion of fingertips until a 10 or 12 inch disc is formed.
7.   Continue to stretch dough or toss in the air until disc is 16 inches in diameter.
8.   Place in 16 inch lightly oiled oven pan. Press out dough to form a slight lip.
9.   Place half of grated cheese on the dough.
10.   Apply sauce in a spiral, ensuring that sauce covers the outer diameter up to the lip. Use a squirt bottle or a pot with a spout to apply.
11.   Place second half of grated cheese over sauce.
12.   Cook in a pre-heated oven (500F) for 8-12 minutes.

*preferably Kyrol from Conagra Foods; high gluten flour, 14% protein, may be substituted
**preferably Gangi Supreme Super Heavy Pizza Sauce with basil from California Fruit and Tomato Kitchens
***preferably Acme Brand longhorn style
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 05, 2010, 08:31:09 PM
Jerry,

Welcome to the forum and hopefully someday we will find the grail.  :) I am not good at converting volume measurements into weight measurements, so I canít really tell what this formula looks like. 

Itís great you found a brand of mild white cheddar cheese that does taste like Mackís pizza.  ;D  I am not familiar with that brand, but maybe other members are.  That is what we have been searching for, a brand of mild white cheddar that does taste like M&Mís.  

I wish you best of luck in creating a clone pizza.

Thanks for giving us your version and telling us about the cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 05, 2010, 09:26:10 PM
Jerry.

  Thanks for the tip on the cheese. It is not around the corner but we have a Whole Foods nead here. I will try it.

Bruce
 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: mikel33 on August 12, 2010, 03:48:03 AM
I just started reading this post. I go to Mack's in Wildwood every year. I also love Grotto's pizza. I haven't had a chance to read all of the pages here, but I'll make a few observations on both.

Whenever I go to the Nascar race in Delaware, I always try to order a Grotto's pie. In what I can remember, it's not as crispy, and it seemed like the sauce was sweeter. They do look very similar in the way the sauce is put on.

As far as Mack's, I'm not sure if they ran out of their regular cheddar or not, but the only time I tried to take note as to what ingredient's they used. In the bin of cheese was a mixture of mostly white cheese and some yellow (didn't seem like a lot at all). I believe I asked him something about the cheese and he said it's a combo of mozz and cheddar. (I only asked because I saw the yellow cheese).. However, I don't really see any yellow in the videos (unless it's just hard to see), so I don't know why they did that day. One other thing about their pizza is that the cheese is very very greasy..

As far as how they compare to other pizzas on the Wildwood boardwalk, they (in my opinion one or two years ago) were the best. There are really only two places (that I know of) on the boardwalk that have "fans" like Mack's. The other one is Sam's Pizza on 26th and the Boardwalk. This year I had two slices of Mack's and it just wasn't the same Mack's. Too much sauce, couldn't find the cheese and the texture was just waaaaaay off from their typical pizza. My brother from Maryland said the same thing. On the same trip, I walked past Sam's, only to find a line of people waiting to get in 35+ strong. I've never seen a line on the boardwalk for any restaurant, especially a pizza place. I'm guessing they had some kind of special going on. I've had Sam's once, and it was good... but never stood out like the old Mack's. I have family in Texas, Illinois and Maryland that can't wait to get to Wildwood once a year and have their Mack's...  Hope I helped some.

Here are a few videos from Youtube of the pizza being made.. not sure if they have already been posted:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bs4h5Gr_GKc&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbyeStVlHTo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMtO2W9a-YY&feature=related
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2010, 07:38:50 AM
mikel33,

Thanks for your observations on Mackís and Grottoís pies.  When I went to Mackís pizza, I looked at the cheese and it appeared to me that Mackís was using just white cheddar.  Maybe they were out of all white cheddar and mixed some yellow cheddar in.  That is an interesting observation though, because maybe there is a white cheddar cheese that does have the same flavor as the white cheddar.  I know how greasy the cheese is on Mackís pizzas.  In my opinion that is what makes Mackís pizza special.

Other people also have reported that Mackís isnít the same, but I didnít find that when I went to visit and had their pizza.  It probably has something to do with how busy they are and of course they donít weigh any of the sauce or cheese out.  They just free-throw those ingredients. 

I think you are talking about Samís pizza on the boardwalk.  I also studied their pizzas for awhile, but didnít get any.  ERASMO has eaten Samís pizza.  They also bake in a Roto-Flex oven.  Since I didnít eat any of Samís pizza, I donít know what they taste like. 

Itís also interesting that you have family from different places and they also canít wait to get to Mackís pizza. 

Your observations are appreciated,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: mikel33 on August 12, 2010, 11:47:07 AM
Ack! I can't believe I said Sal's! (That's like me forgetting the names of the piers down there!).  You are correct, it's Sam's. I agree that Mack's pizza is special because it is greasy, and I think that probably comes from the cheddar. Nobody else has that very flavorful greasy cheese.

It kinda hurts to hear that others share my opinion about the pizza being different this year and last. Maybe they have some new help that just doesn't share the same passion. Dunno

I saw a lot of comments about them pre-baking the pies, but I don't see that in the videos. Was that a suggestion for how we can duplicate it?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2010, 12:16:02 PM
I saw a lot of comments about them pre-baking the pies, but I don't see that in the videos. Was that a suggestion for how we can duplicate it?

mikel33,

When I first got involved in this thread, at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg78465.html#msg78465, I did some quick research and read somewhere that the M&M crusts were pre-baked, as I so noted in the above Reply 3. Later I did not see evidence in videos and the like of pre-baking at either Mack's or M&M's but, with a RotoFlex oven, I can see how that might have been an option in isolated cases.

It's a real challenge to make a Mack's clone in a standard home oven, mainly because of the size of the pizzas (18") and the inadequacies of standard home ovens (which are no match for a Roto-Flex oven or even one like Norma's), but also because of difficulty in locating the types of tomatoes and cheese used by Mack's, or something equivalent to those items. I think Norma and I are in the ballpark for the dough formulation but even then the results are likely to be different in a home oven than the commercial oven that Norma uses. Also, Norma has been able to locate a source of the tomatoes that Mack's uses and a white cheddar cheese that appears to be quite similar to what Mack's uses. I have not been able to locate a source of either of those items at the stores near where I live. That means that one attempting a home oven version of a Mack's pizza will have to do a fair amount of improvising.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2010, 12:16:22 PM
mikel33,

Donít worry about saying the wrong name of a pizza business.  I did the same thing in the beginning of this thread.  :-D I also agree that it is the greasy kind of cheddar that Mackís pizza uses that makes their pies so unique.  

I can see when Mackís is busy and they have to make so many pies that the pies can then suffer and not be consistent.  When I went to visit they werenít that busy, so that might be why my pizzas were good.  I bought a par-baked pie to take home and that was a whole different story.  That pizza was terrible in my opinion.  Mackís doesnít par-bake their crusts normally.  I had just bought a par-baked pie to be able to take back to where I live.  I bought that at the recommendation of the pie maker, but should have bought a regular baked pie to take home.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: mikel33 on August 12, 2010, 02:57:05 PM
Pete,

I hope I didn't insult you by asking about the par-baked crusts (It seemed as if you were trying to defend your idea). I didn't even know you had suggested it. I was just curious (through all of the post) if you guys had decided that par-baked was the best way to go. I'd never call someone out for making a suggestion on how to duplicate a pizza, and trust me I know that you guys go out of your way to experiment in every different way to duplicate all different types of pizza and I appreciate that, and that's why I love this site. But thanks for all of the information. I'm sure there are many many types of pizzas that are just as hard to replicate, and I guess thats what's fun about it all..the challenge. If making pizza was like making a grilled cheese, this site would never exist. BTW, Pete, I am making a pizza tonight with emergency dough (similar to Shark's style that I've been asking you about) and I'll try to post some pics.

Norma, have you ever had Mr. D's pizza? It's near Rio Grand, a few blocks off the boards. I ordred a pie from them last week, and it wasn't Mack's style, but it was one of the best pies that I've ever had. Try em if you get a chance, it's a chewier crust, and very flavorful cheese.

-Mike
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2010, 03:39:02 PM

Norma, have you ever had Mr. D's pizza? It's near Rio Grand, a few blocks off the boards. I ordred a pie from them last week, and it wasn't Mack's style, but it was one of the best pies that I've ever had. Try em if you get a chance, it's a chewier crust, and very flavorful cheese.

-Mike

Mike,

I never tried Mr. D's pizza.  Wildwood has so many pizza businesses.  Not only on the boardwalk, but everywhere.  I don't know how they all do enough business.  I was talking to the lady that owns the place where we were staying in Wildwood and she also had many suggestions for places to try out pizzas. 

Thanks for the idea,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2010, 03:41:51 PM
Mike,

I was not the least bit offended by your question nor was I trying to defend the idea of pre-baking. At the outset, never having had a Mack's or M&M pizza before, I was completely oblivious to Mack's and M&M pizzas but my preliminary research suggested that M&M was pre-baking crusts. So I started with that premise. It was not until later that that approach appeared not to be one that was actually being used but I could see how it could be used with a Roto-Flex oven, and that possibly someone had witnessed it and later reported on it. Interestingly, later, when I was trying to combat the problem of the white cheddar cheese breaking down too fast and releasing too much fat, I did partially bake a Mack's clone with cheese and sauce and then added the rest of the cheese to complete the bake. That approach would not have been my first choice. To avoid it, I would have to find a white cheddar cheese that doesn't break down too much during the time that it takes to completely bake the pizza (18") in my home oven.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2010, 03:49:50 PM
Mike,

After my last post, I tried to find out where I read about the pre-baking (or partial baking) of the M&M pizzas. I found the discussion at http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/piemen.asp. I have excerpted the relevant portions below:

Who are the Piemen? They are a group of talented, dedicated artisans that spend their days and nights crafting the perfect pizza. They can be seen day in and day out, moulding and shaping the pizza dough, which by the way is a closely guarded Mack and Manco secret. Then they toss it high into the air to give it that classic pizza pie shape and that famous Mack and Manco texture.

Traditionally, the pizza sauce goes on next, but, the Piemen do it differently..they put the cheese on instead, another fact that gives a Mack and Manco Pizza that distinctive and famous taste.

Finally the pizza sauce, another closely guarded secret, is added. Mack and Manco's super secret homemade sauce is added in a circular motion on top of the cheese giving the pizza a rich taste and unique texture.

What about the toppings you say? Not yet.. Next the pizza goes into the oven which was specially designed to meet Mack and Manco's strict quality control requirements. Once the pizza reaches a certain doneness it is removed from the oven and the toppings are added. These are not your average toppings.. the Pieman add huge slices of tomatoes, enormous crowns of broccoli, delectable slices of pepperoni, sausage, mushrooms, black olives, onions, spinach and green peppers.

Finally, the pizza goes back into the oven where it is closely guarded ensuring the perfect crust and that perfect Mack and Manco taste.


I would imagine that if one were to order just a plain cheese pizza there would be no need for pre-baking or partially baking a pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: mikel33 on August 12, 2010, 04:40:48 PM
Ahh, ok. That's interesting... I'd almost think that the crust would be slightly different with a plain pie vs one with toppings.. stoping the cooking process for a minute?  Thanks for the info!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: trentonpie77 on August 13, 2010, 09:23:47 AM
for those trying for the macks / mack and manco taste, have you tried adding a little butter to your cheese? i've tried lots of cheese combinations to match mack and manco, and have found that half mozzarella, half cheddar, and touch of shredded butter comes closest.

in other news, for those who might be interested, delorenzo's hudson street uses sargento cheese. however, i was only able to see the name "sargento" on a big bag, so i could not give you any more specifics, though i would guess it is whole milk mozzarella, and i don't think they add anything to it.

i've been away from pizza making for a while, but i made a few the other day and they turned out great. thanks for all the great info.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 13, 2010, 10:28:02 AM
trentonpie77,

I donít know if anyone else is trying to add a little butter to any mix, but can see that your idea would then make a more greasy pizza. 

Thatís great you found out that Delorenzoís uses Sargento Cheese.  I havenít tried to make any of those kinds of pizzas, but other members might be interested in that.  I havenít followed that thread, so I donít know if that was mentioned before or not.

Itís good to hear your pizzas turned out well.  :)  If you find time and can post pictures, please do.

Thanks for your ideas,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: trentonpie77 on August 13, 2010, 12:30:45 PM

but norma, mack and mancos IS a fairly greasy pizza  ??? 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 13, 2010, 01:48:27 PM
but norma, mack and mancos IS a fairly greasy pizza  ??? 

trentonpie77,

Sorry if I confused you with my last post.  I know how greasy Mack's pizza is and am sure Mack and Mancos is about the same.  With the white mild cheddar cheese I have tried so far, most of them did produce a very greasy pizza.  If you look back though some of the pizzas I did make most of them had white cheddar cheese, which had a decent amount of fat in the cheese.  The mozzarella I use at market has less fat than the mild white cheddars I tried.  Mack's doesn't use any mozzarella cheese.  If someone wants to try your ideas and they work out for them, that is a good step in the right direction. 

I only have enough Gangi sauce and Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar cheese for one more attempt at this kind of pizza.  I probably then will try to make a sauce something like Mack's Gangi sauce out of something like Great Value tomato paste.  I don't know if that will work out or not.  As for the cheese, I will make those decisions when I am out of the Acme brand.

I hope this explains what I posted before. 

Thanks,  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: mikel33 on August 14, 2010, 11:52:03 AM
I was just reading "The Great Book of Philadelphia Sports List", and Big Daddy Garahm (Philly sports radio talk host)  gave his top five pizzas from the area, his #1 is Mack & Manco's, 7th and the Boardwalk, Ocean City, NJ. He says:

"The undisputed king. I've been eating their paper-thin, unique pie for over 45 years. Forty-five years! No-frills joint with tasty birch beer to boot. They're open year round, and I can't tell you how many times in the dead of winter my wife and I have been in the car, suposedly heading toward a movie, when we glance at each other and say, 'What the hell, let's do a Mack's.' A tad pricey, but worth every cent. If you want, you can buy a couple slices, grab a bench, and gobble down while looking at the ocean. Can you beat that? It's already in my will that when I die I want to be stuffed and placed in one of thier classic green booths."

I just figured I's post this because it's pretty ironic. I've also never had a Mack and Manco's, just Mack's in Wildwood, but I'd imagine they are very similar.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 14, 2010, 12:26:42 PM
I was just reading "The Great Book of Philadelphia Sports List", and Big Daddy Garahm (Philly sports radio talk host)  gave his top five pizzas from the area, his #1 is Mack & Manco's, 7th and the Boardwalk, Ocean City, NJ. He says:

"The undisputed king. I've been eating their paper-thin, unique pie for over 45 years. Forty-five years! No-frills joint with tasty birch beer to boot. They're open year round, and I can't tell you how many times in the dead of winter my wife and I have been in the car, suposedly heading toward a movie, when we glance at each other and say, 'What the hell, let's do a Mack's.' A tad pricey, but worth every cent. If you want, you can buy a couple slices, grab a bench, and gobble down while looking at the ocean. Can you beat that? It's already in my will that when I die I want to be stuffed and placed in one of thier classic green booths."

I just figured I's post this because it's pretty ironic. I've also never had a Mack and Manco's, just Mack's in Wildwood, but I'd imagine they are very similar.

mikel33,

Thanks for finding that article and posting what Big Daddy Garahm said was his favorite pizza place.  I find that article amusing.   :)

I was never at Mack and Mancos, but hear their pizza is just like Mack's.  I think ERASMO, was at Mack and Mancos in Ocean City NJ, so he would know more if the Mack's and Mack and Mancos do taste the same.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on August 15, 2010, 10:52:04 AM
Mike


I was at mack and mancos two weeks ago and the pizza is the same.

I was able to do some dumpster diving there in Ocean City and I did see the Gangi Sauce.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 16, 2010, 01:06:32 AM
Norma,

  Variety is the spice of life. While still reaching for the grail of M&M's, I did a deep dish with your dough following DMK's suggestions and using my 11" stoneware Pampered Chef baking dish that I recently acquired on e-bay (using the camera that I snatched off of there too. Both for a song). The 6 in 1 tomatos were worth the expense. Here are the photos that I was able to upload. Hope you are all good!
Bruce
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 16, 2010, 06:28:37 AM
njbruce,

You are very creative.  I never would have thought to take DKMís directions and try and make a deep-dish pizza with my formula.  How did that pizza turn out?  It really looks tasty. I have made a few deep-dish pizzas and I really like them, but I used a whole different formula.  Probably in a few weeks, I am going to try to make another NJ Boardwalk pizza.  As I said in a post I did a few days ago, I am almost out of the Gangi sauce, but think there could be some way to make a sauce that tastes something like the Gangi.  I know how that sauce tastes, so at least I can try different pastes, add ingredients and see if any taste similiar.  I also like 6 in 1 sauce.  If I could explain how the Gangi sauce tastes, it is a little bitter and is a thick paste, but the taste changes when you put it on a pizza.  I needed to add water when I tried the NJ Boardwalk pizza. 

Thank you for uploading your pictures.  I also love to look at other peoples pictures to see what they have created.  I really like Ebay, too.  I have purchased many items on there for a good price.  I bought all my deep-dish pans on there. 

If you stay on this forum for long enough, you will be creating many kinds of pizza and can then learn which type you like best, or you might find out you like many kinds.  There are so many members that have contributed their ideas and instructions on how to go about making any kind of pizza.  Like you said in the opening of your post, ďvariety is the spice of lifeĒ.

Thanks,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on August 18, 2010, 07:24:53 AM
Just received another couple of samples to try for the Macks cheese.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 18, 2010, 08:17:07 AM
Just received another couple of samples to try for the Macks cheese.


ERASMO,

Let us all know how the taste of your Mack's clone turn out with the samples you received.  That looks like great cheese.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Papageorgio on August 30, 2010, 02:29:32 PM
What an interesting thread! I read the whole thing from the start and here I sit left with uncertainty. You guys are excellent detectives. I am going to Albertsons here in Florida to look for the Longhorn cheese.

Norma, I believe you are correct that the cheese is the most important flavor. I have tried all combinations of Grand'e mozzarella and provolone with good results but I always yearn for the flavors from the Jersey shore. The white cheddar may just be the ticket I have spent years searching for.

Please, let us know of any of the suppliers give you any further information. It is possible (almost unthinkable at this point) that it is a bulk product only offered to the food service industry.

Thanks everyone for all the information!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2010, 05:55:38 PM
Papageorgio,

In my opinion it is the cheese that makes this pizza so special.  To find the right kind of longhorn cheese or mild white cheddar Mackís uses and one that members can buy that have that same flavor is hard.  The Acme longhorn style mild white cheddar, that ERASMO found, had the closest taste so far.  I havenít heard from Jim Jirschele, so many in a few days I will email him to see if he found out any information about the cheese.  I do deal with bulk suppliers and know there are many kinds of cheeses that are hard to find in retail markets.  I donít know what ERASMO thought of the kind of cheese he has now.  He tries Mackís pizza more than I can.

This is a short video added to YouTube just a little while ago of Mack and Mancos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8kC03SBtws

I have been busy with other pizza projects, but will make another attempt at this style of pizza soon.  I had thought I might be going to Wildwood in September, but right now I am not sure.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on August 30, 2010, 07:05:48 PM
Norma
I have had the macks pizza experiments on hold for a little while but will start up again soon.  I may try to make some during labor day weekend and will try those new cheeses then.
I do need to get some gangi sauce but the closest place to me is bova and it is hard for me to get there.
 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2010, 07:17:17 PM
Norma
I have had the macks pizza experiments on hold for a little while but will start up again soon.  I may try to make some during labor day weekend and will try those new cheeses then.
I do need to get some gangi sauce but the closest place to me is bova and it is hard for me to get there.
 

ERASMO,

I also had my Mack's pizza experiments on hold for awhile.  Let us know how the pies taste when you get to try your new cheese.

I also only have enough Gangi sauce for one more pie.  It is hard for me to get there too.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 01, 2010, 04:00:52 AM
I haven't been sitting on my hands and I want to thank Jerry for his help for the expatriots like me to go to Whole Foods for mild white cheddar. Although the brand my store carries is not the same as his (mine is 365 brand), the taste is really the closest that I have come and his wife has great taste bud.
Now, the last I tried was a 16" variation on Pete's formula for the dough:

16Ē
Flour (100%):    269.5 g  |  9.51 oz | 0.59 lbs *
Water (57%):    153.61 g  |  5.42 oz | 0.34 lbs
IDY (.2%):    0.54 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
Salt (2%):    5.39 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.97 tsp | 0.32 tbsp
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%):    8.08 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.78 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
Sugar (1.5%):    4.04 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.01 tsp | 0.34 tbsp
Total (163.7%):   441.17 g | 15.56 oz | 0.97 lbs | TF = 0.0773963

* I improvised the KABF/VWG mix using his for the 18" pie

Server is having trouble. Will continue in next post....
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 01, 2010, 04:14:46 AM
Jerry, that was my typo. Your wife has great taste buds, Bud!
 *Pete, can you give me  KABF/VWG weights for a mix for a 16" pie?
I do not have access to the Gangi sauce so I am experimenting with others such as Dellalo and Escalon's Bella Rosa.
So far, this last dough and Norma's lastest have been the closest to the real thing that I remember. I will post this before I post pictures because I lost my whole posting last time due to picture file sizing.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 01, 2010, 04:21:49 AM
Here are some of the latest pictures. Top is the cheese I found at Whole Foods...$10 per pound.  Bottom is Jerry's dough, pan baked and experimenting with Monterey Jack cheese. It'll do if you can't get the mild white cheddar.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 01, 2010, 04:32:28 AM
This is Norma's latest version that I made last week. My wife really liked this best so far of the ones I have cooked. I liked it too. I used the cheese in the post above baked directly on the stone. Spot on, as Jerry would say.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 01, 2010, 05:18:27 AM
My pictures of the 16" Pete's formula can't upload because they are too large. I thought that I had taken at least one with less file space.
 In any case, this effort was worth it. You can see the dough formula in my recent prior post. This pie came out "al dente" which means "to the tooth". Thin crust that is not too soft and not too hard. Just enough bite to it.  Norma, Pete, Jerry, keep going with this! Many thanks.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 01, 2010, 08:01:30 AM
njbruce,

Great to hear you adventure is continuing.  ;D  It also looks like you found a cheddar cheese near you that does taste something like Mackís pizza cheese.  Your picture will be helpful for others that can find this cheese.

Good to hear Peterís formula worked out well for you.  :)

Thanks for helping to make a pie like Mackís and reporting back how your adventures were.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 01, 2010, 10:49:52 AM
njbruce,

It appears that you modified the Mack's clone dough formulation that I posted at Reply 301 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg98561.html#msg98561 by scaling it for a 16" pizza size and by lowering the hydration from 57.5% to 57% and by increasing the oil from 2.5% to 3%. I believe the last dough formulation that Norma used was the one at Reply 399 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522. If I got the two formulations right, you can see that they are quite similar. They are actually siblings, having descended from a common parent. I think our thinking at this point is that Mack's may be using a shorter fermentation window, hence the slight increase in the amount of IDY in Norma's latest dough formulation. It is possible that Mack's is using even more yeast than either Norma or I have been using. The amount of oil is still an open issue that might be explored but your dough formulation ratchets up the oil to a value between what I last used and Norma last used. That might help inch us further to the goal line. Since I have never had a Mack's pizza I won't know when we are in the end zone. Norma or you or some other member who has had their pizza will have to tell me that we crossed the goal line. I will want to see the instant replay :-D.

With respect to the allocation of the flour and vital wheat gluten (VWG) for your dough formulation, I used the Mixed Mass Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ to come up with the numbers. For purposes of using the tool, I used the 269.5 grams of formula flour and assumed that you are using the Hodgson Mill brand of VWG. On this basis, the allocation would be 262 grams (9.24 ounces) of King Arthur bread flour and 7.5 grams (0.27 ounces) of the Hodgson Mill VWG. On a volume basis, the VWG comes to 2 1/2 level teaspoons. If you use another brand of VWG, the numbers would have to be recalculated if you want to be accurate in your measurements.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 02, 2010, 03:02:09 AM
Pete,
  I have the King Arthur bread flour and the VWG available to me at Whole Foods is the Bob's Red. I looked at the tool for calculatiing but I don't understand what I should use for values for the 16" I am trying to make. Can you help me with this? Thanks.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 02, 2010, 07:31:31 AM
njbruce,

The amount of KABF you want to use is 263 grams (8.33 ounces) and the amount of Bob's red Mill VWG you want to use is 6.49 grams (0.23 ounces), or a bit over 2 1/2 teaspoons. This will yield a total protein content of 14.2%.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on September 03, 2010, 04:13:14 AM
Thanks for the help Pete! I will use that in my next 16" and report back.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2010, 11:07:37 PM
This week my oldest daughter told me that she was going to Wildwood and was taking my granddaughter and great-granddaughter along.  I said how can you do that to me.  :-D  I meant I sure wanted to be able to go to Wildwood again and be able to eat Mackís pizza and see the ocean.  It seems I had to work today and there was nothing I could do about it, so for me, there was no going to Wildwood.  :'(  At least my daughter and granddaughter took some pictures and brought back some Mackís pizza. 

These are a few pictures of Wildwood taken today and Mackís pizza.  My granddaughter was kind enough to take two videos of the piemen making pizza.  I will upload them on YouTube and post the videos tomorrow. 

I told my daughter not to get me any par-baked pizza again, because the last time the pizza sure was terrible.  What interested me about this pizza that they brought home was the bubbles in the crust.  I wonder why there are some big bubbles.

At least this pizza isnít going to go under the boardwalk.  I will make good use of it.    ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2010, 11:09:06 PM
end of pictures for today

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 08:44:13 AM
These are the pictures of Mackís pizza and the videos of the piemen.  I had three slices of Mackís pizza last evening and it was delicious in my opinion.  I had asked my daughter and granddaughter how the Mackís pizza tasted when the ate it fresh at Mackís yesterday.  They both said it was really good and have a definite crunch when they ate the pizza fresh.  They said when they were at Mackís in the afternoon that Mackís was busy.  When they were ready to leave they said the line waiting to get into Mackís was way out the door and people were waiting in line on the boardwalk to get into Mackís. There was a car show on the whole boardwalk in Wildwood yesterday. When I reheated the slices of Mackís pizza the cheese almost tasted like the Acme brand of Longhorn style white cheddar cheese. 

I sure wish I could have gone to Wildwood yesterday.  When looking at the bottom of the crust and Mackís whole pizza, it still amazes me how different this pizza tastes than other pizzas I have eaten. 

I want to try another attempt at Mackís pizza in a few weeks.  Peter do you have any ideas of what I could change to get my pizzas to look more like Mackís?  I know I donít exactly have the cheese part figured out, but this crust is also different, then the ones I tried in this thread.  I did contact Jim again, about two weeks ago by email about the Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar, but I havenít gotten any answer from him.  Do you get any more clues from these videos and pictures?  The dough sitting out on the bench looks so flat and also so much different than doughs I have made in this thread.  It still wonders me about how quickly the piemen open the dough balls and how flexible the dough is when they twirl the dough and throw it into the air. When I looked at the 18" pie, it sure looked big to me.

I am going to give Steve a slice on Tuesday because he never tasted Mackís pizza before, except when I purchased the par-baked Mackís pizza.  That par-baked pizza sure was different then the one that was brought home for me last evening. 

Videos

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7xG7yhOCkXY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UhALcslqH7Y

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 08:45:20 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 08:46:32 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 08:47:24 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: StrayBullet on October 03, 2010, 11:36:01 AM
Some great looking stuff Norma!!!  Takes me back a bit, the guys that put in my roll-bar have a shop near Great Adventure but that was a few years ago :)

And just to note, the phrases great-grand-daughter and "having to work" just don't seem to mix in my head ;)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 12:29:21 PM
Some great looking stuff Norma!!!  Takes me back a bit, the guys that put in my roll-bar have a shop near Great Adventure but that was a few years ago :)

And just to note, the phrases great-grand-daughter and "having to work" just don't seem to mix in my head ;)

Mark,

Thanks for saying Mackís pizza is some great looking stuff.  :)  Mackís pizza is good, in my opinion. I just wish I could get my dough to look like Mackís and have it be so flexible. It is so much different than other pies I have tasted and I have been to NY many different times and tried many different pizzas.  I have also been to Great Adventure in the past and that is also a nice place.  Hope you also enjoyed Great Adventure Amusement Park.  :)

The terms great-granddaughter and having to work are because I am older and also because my furry friend had to have an expensive operation and many tests before he could have the final operation.  That is why I got a part-time job, to pay for his operation and also to keep busy. I just started this part-time job the other week, so I sure couldnít take off already.  I might be older, but I still have some life in me.  At least I think I do.  :-D  If you look at my signature, that is what I said when I became a member of this forum and I still think the same way.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on October 03, 2010, 01:15:41 PM
norma, the last picture shows a bubble that looks similar to the types of bubbles I see when I do high oil content NY style doughs.   Have you tried any high fat/oil recipes.   Im thinking 3-4% might be a good starting point.   good luck!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2010, 01:26:23 PM
I want to try another attempt at Mackís pizza in a few weeks.  Peter do you have any ideas of what I could change to get my pizzas to look more like Mackís?  I know I donít exactly have the cheese part figured out, but this crust is also different, then the ones I tried in this thread.  I did contact Jim again, about two weeks ago by email about the Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar, but I havenít gotten any answer from him.  Do you get any more clues from these videos and pictures?  The dough sitting out on the bench looks so flat and also so much different than doughs I have made in this thread.  It still wonders me about how quickly the piemen open the dough balls and how flexible the dough is when they twirl the dough and throw it into the air. When I looked at the 18" pie, it sure looked big to me.

Norma,

I did not see anything in the new videos to suggest possible changes to the Mack's clone dough formulations we have been experimenting with. It seems to me that Mack's pizzas take on new and different looks all of the time. I think that the dough is made the same way each time but that they may be using the dough balls at many different stages of fermentation and that this may be the cause for all of the different looks and crust textures of the Manco pizzas. I would imagine that Mack's has a pretty good idea as to dough ball volumes but it would seem that inventory control is an ongoing issue when many of your patrons are tourists and factors like weather can have a big effect on traffic and on dough ball inventory and management, especially in a boardwalk environment where I would think that it would be hard to accurately predict from day to day how much dough to make.

Can you tell me which of your Mack dough clone formulations has come closest to a real Mack's pizza? Also, can you tell me what differences you detected in the latest Mack's pizza and the best of your Mack clones?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 03:11:27 PM
norma, the last picture shows a bubble that looks similar to the types of bubbles I see when I do high oil content NY style doughs.   Have you tried any high fat/oil recipes.   Im thinking 3-4% might be a good starting point.   good luck!

scott r,

Thanks for looking at Mack's pizza.  :) I did try up to 6% oil in the formula.  I am wondering if I should try another kind of oil, other than olive oil.  Would that make any difference in the flavor of the crust or how the crust bakes? 

Thanks for the good luck.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 03:30:09 PM
Norma,

I did not see anything in the new videos to suggest possible changes to the Mack's clone dough formulations we have been experimenting with. It seems to me that Mack's pizzas take on new and different looks all of the time. I think that the dough is made the same way each time but that they may be using the dough balls at many different stages of fermentation and that this may be the cause for all of the different looks and crust textures of the Manco pizzas. I would imagine that Mack's has a pretty good idea as to dough ball volumes but it would seem that inventory control is an ongoing issue when many of your patrons are tourists and factors like weather can have a big effect on traffic and on dough ball inventory and management, especially in a boardwalk environment where I would think that it would be hard to accurately predict from day to day how much dough to make.

Can you tell me which of your Mack dough clone formulations has come closest to a real Mack's pizza? Also, can you tell me what differences you detected in the latest Mack's pizza and the best of your Mack clones?

Peter

Peter,

The closest looking Mackís clone I made in terms of look of the crust was June 6, 2010 at Reply 341 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg100438.html#msg100438   That Mackís clone was made in my home oven.

My closest attempt at market in terms of overall taste of the Mackís pizza was at Reply 399 on July 13, 2010.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522   

I can understand that Mackís pizzas do look different in different pictures, but the crust doesnít taste different in the ones I have tried.  It is always about the same.  That is something I donít understand about this dough and trying to find out what kind of formula to use, that a pizza could have so many looks, but the crust still tastes the same.  Most pizzas I have tried to make at home will have different looking doughs if I ferment them longer or change different variables.  If you look just at Mackís doughs that are sitting on the bench they donít seem to ever change in my opinion on how they look.  I donít know if that why the crusts stay the same tasting or not.  I couldnít ever imagine trying to have enough dough and then letting them sit at room temperature (over the difference in ambient temperatures of spring, summer, and now fall) and all the doughs still look the same, even if the dough was fermented longer.  Maybe I just donít understand all of this.  If I just take a small piece of crust that is cold and taste it, the crust does taste saltier than any pizza that I have made.  There is also a kind of sweetness in the crust, but I can really explain that.  Do you think I should go up in the amount of salt?  If I eat a cold piece of just crust, it is really good tasting in my opinion.  If I would just base the Mackís pizza on terms of the crust, without the sauce and cheese there is a really salty tasted left in my mouth after having eaten a piece of the crust, but when eaten hot, I donít really notice that.

I guess I am just stumped in knowing what to try.   :-\

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 03:44:30 PM
Peter,

I just had one other question to ask you if you don't mind answering the question.  What happened to your signature? I saw you had posted on that different times in the past. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2010, 06:32:55 PM
Norma,

I went back to the beginning of this thread and looked at photos of all of the pizzas. It seems to me that maybe it is worth moving the Mack's clone dough more in the direction of a cracker style crust--possibly something approaching a DeLorenzo crust but with less of a cracker characteristic.

An example of what I have in mind is using a hydration of 53% and oil at 5%. That may sound a bit extreme but it would still give us an "effective" hydration of 58%, which should be a workable value (any worker should be able to handle it) from the standpoint of being able to open up the dough balls, especially if the dough balls are given enough temper time before using to improve the extensibility of the skins, hopefully with little or no bubbling in the skins. You can increase the salt if you wish, maybe to about 2.2%, although I think that a fairer test in trying to establish a salt baker's percent is to assess the degree of saltiness using a just-baked pizza rather than a reheated slice. I would leave the sugar at whatever value you have been using, otherwise you run the risk of the bottom crust prematurely browning or even burning when baked in a deck oven. I would select a value for the IDY that will allow using the dough after one day of cold fermentation but still be usable after two or three days. I am thinking of about 0.30% IDY, or maybe a bit more where you are with the weather turning cooler. A three-day range might allow for the pizzas to have different looks yet taste pretty much the same. You might try using a different oil, such as vegetable (soybean) oil, to see if that is closer to what Mack's may be using. Using a different type of oil shouldn't have much of an effect beyond flavor.

In terms of making the pizza, I would try to keep the rim small in size and I would place the sauce and cheese close to the outer edge of the pizza.

It may turn out that the above changes will not get us closer to the target. However, I think we should learn something that might help us in future efforts. Ruling out things that do not work is still a useful exercise.

With respect to the Signature question you raised, I don't think I have ever used a Signature. I have used what is called "Personal Text" in my profile.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Tscarborough on October 03, 2010, 08:14:01 PM
I read that (this?) thread about Macks and made a crude clone.  It was good, no telling if it was true to them or not.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11391.0;attach=25069;image
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 10:45:18 PM
Peter,

I think it is time to try a change.  Although the crusts were good in the formulas I did try, it still isnít exactly like a Mackís crust.  I just didnít know what to try next.  There is a softness in the rim of Mackís pizza, but also a crunch when you eat the crust.  I donít know any other way of explaining how Mackís crust is.  Maybe ERASMO could explain it better since he has eaten Mackís pizza more times over the summer than I did. 

I will take your advise and change the hydration and oil hydration.  I will also increase the salt in the formula, because after eating the crust cold, it is really salty. I think I am also going to try regular table salt in the dough.  I know some pizza businesses that do just use regular salt in their dough. I think Mackís would go the cheapest route, but I am not sure is table salt would be cheaper than the Mortonsí Kosher salt I have been using and I also am not sure if that will make a difference in the taste of the crust.  I can understand to access the crust more fairly, it would have to be eaten just baked. 

I also think ruling things out would be good.  I will try another attempt in the next few weeks.

I didnít know what you call a ďpersonal textĒ was.  I had just thought that your personal text was your signature, but I see now that there is a difference.  I enjoy reading what members have as their signature.  I guess I was a little confused like always.   :-D
 
Thanks for your help,

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 03, 2010, 10:51:17 PM
I read that (this?) thread about Macks and made a crude clone.  It was good, no telling if it was true to them or not.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=11391.0;attach=25069;image

Tscarborough,

Your pizza looks quite tasty.  :)  Did you use one of the formulas from this thread?  I haven't tried Peter's formulas, but the pizzas I have made on this thread did turn out well in my opinion.  Since only Mack's knows their formula, it is hard to clone a pizza, when you don't know what formula they are using.  We do know the flour is Kyrol and the sauce, but the cheese is still elusive.

Thanks for posting the picture of your pizza.

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 04, 2010, 10:40:20 AM
I will also increase the salt in the formula, because after eating the crust cold, it is really salty. I think I am also going to try regular table salt in the dough.

Norma,

If you were previously using Morton's Kosher salt but used regular salt/sea salt in the dough calculating tool, you would have been on the low side. You might want to take that into account when you arrive at the percent of Kosher salt you want to use.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 04, 2010, 11:16:42 AM
Norma,

If you were previously using Morton's Kosher salt but used regular salt/sea salt in the dough calculating tool, you would have been on the low side. You might want to take that into account when you arrive at the percent of Kosher salt you want to use.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me to use a higher percent of regular table salt when I figure out the formulation for the Mack's pizza.  I didn't know using regular table salt would then make the salt on the low side.  I had been using the Morton's Kosher salt in all the other formulas. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Jose L. Piedra on October 04, 2010, 10:51:20 PM
Wow, the Mack's pie is unbelieveably thin, considering that it's a plain pie not weighted down by a lot of toppings. Are they making it at a TF of .09 or less, or does their dough just lack oven spring ?

-JLP
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 05, 2010, 06:06:05 AM
Wow, the Mack's pie is unbelieveably thin, considering that it's a plain pie not weighted down by a lot of toppings. Are they making it at a TF of .09 or less, or does their dough just lack oven spring ?

-JLP

JLP,

Mack's pie is a thin pizza.  I have been using a thickness factor of .08252.  We don't really know what the thickness factor is, but I did weigh a pizza that was par-baked.  We don't know exactly how much sauce or cheese Mack's puts on their pizzas because they just use the hose to put on the sauce and they free-throw the cheese.  In my opinion the Mack's pizzas do lack oven spring.  If you watch one of the videos they really press on the dough ball while opening it.  In some peoples opinion this doesn't affect oven spring.  I can't decide whether the formula does that or if it is the way Mack's piemen open their dough.   ::)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on October 05, 2010, 07:29:42 AM
     On the oven spring topic, do you think the low oven spring could have something to do with the metal shelves in the rotoflex oven as compared to stones.  I tried putting my new york style dough on my pizza stone and compared it to cooking on a pizza pan and the dough on the pan had very little oven spring compared to the dough cooked on the stone.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on October 05, 2010, 10:36:27 AM
     On the oven spring topic, do you think the low oven spring could have something to do with the metal shelves in the rotoflex oven as compared to stones.  I tried putting my new york style dough on my pizza stone and compared it to cooking on a pizza pan and the dough on the pan had very little oven spring compared to the dough cooked on the stone.

ERASMO,

I know from experience what you are talking about but I don't think that that is the explanation. Metal pans, and also metal disks and screens, go into the oven cold and must heat up to temperature before the pizzas can bake. As a result, there is usually a reduction in oven spring. There may be differences between the metal deck of a Roto-Flex oven and a stone deck, such as thermal conductivity and heat absorption/retention, and maybe it doesn't absorb moisture from a skin the same way as a stone would, but so long as it is at the desired bake temperature the pizzas should bake up similarly to a stone deck. There may be preferences between using a metal deck and a stone deck and, to accommodate those preferences, Roto-Flex offers a stone deck option.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 08, 2010, 02:11:30 PM
CAPSLOCK,

I also remembered the Mack's pizza from more than 20 years ago.  I didn't know the West Coast was such a pizza deprived area.  I think you would be able to get better results in making your own pizzas.  Great you are making your own pizzas.   :chef:

Norma

I know this is an old reply but I have heard people from back east say that out in the west you can't find a decent pizza.  We are not deprived in the sense of not having enough pizza eateries but just it's not good so we are deprived.  These are back east people talking who visited the wild west but for me a native Californian I have tried a lot of pizza places and have found some really good pizza.  If I was from back east I might feel different.

I have only been back east once and that was to Florida.  First time to the south too.  Best of both worlds, the south and the east, I guess southeast.  I went to Kentucky which isn't quite back east but it's out that way but they are not known for pizza either.  It's supposed to be the south but it's barely the south. I say barely.  Also went there expecting to get some barbecue.  Yeah right.  There are more bbq joints in the wild west than there are in KY.  But overall I liked Kentucky.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 08, 2010, 02:14:04 PM
Norma, I decided against calling up Mack's and order a non-baked pizza shipped in dry ice out here to Los Angeles.  I have decided though on trying out yours, Pete's and others Mack's recipe the best I can without having to have had a Mack's.  Well, Pete is in my boat too he never been out that way to try one either.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2010, 05:16:23 PM
Norma, I decided against calling up Mack's and order a non-baked pizza shipped in dry ice out here to Los Angeles.  I have decided though on trying out yours, Pete's and others Mack's recipe the best I can without having to have had a Mack's.  Well, Pete is in my boat too he never been out that way to try one either.



PizzaEater101,

You are probably better off trying to make your own Mackí pizza.  I would think by the time it got to your place, that it wouldnít taste the same as a fresh pie, unless you could get one in a matter of hours.  I have used the Kyrol flour in my trials, but Peterís method is also good. Kyrol flour is the flour Mackís uses. It is a bleached and bromated flour. If you can find some mild white cheddar where you live, that is the only kind of cheese uses on Mackís pies. 

In the next few weeks, I want try another formula for another Mackís attempt.  I have just been too busy lately to try another attempt. 

Best of luck in making your Mackís attempt.  :) If I can be of any other help, let me know. 

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 08, 2010, 06:40:26 PM
Thanks Norma for the tips on how to make this pizza closer to the original.  I think you are right, an overnighted pie even if not baked in order for me to bake it won't taste the same.  I'll give the Kyrol flour a shot if I can get it around here. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 08, 2010, 06:46:31 PM
Thanks Norma for the tips on how to make this pizza closer to the original.  I think you are right, an overnighted pie even if not baked in order for me to bake it won't taste the same.  I'll give the Kyrol flour a shot if I can get it around here. 

PizzaEater101,

You really don't need to find Kyrol flour if there isn't any near you.  Peter set-forth a formula not using that flour.  If you need that link, let me know.  I used the Gangi sauce, which is what Mack's uses, but it tastes almost like Walmart's tomato paste.  I just added oregano and pepper to the Gangi sauce.  When I tasted that sauce it had a somewhat bitter taste, but when the pizza was baked it tasted different.  I had to add water to the Gangi sauce, because it is thick like tomato paste.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 08, 2010, 09:11:09 PM
For flour I use Red Mill.  I don't see many people mentioning that brand here.  I use it because it's high gluten machine flour and it's easily purchased at Albertson's grocery store.  Used to have Gold Medal high gluten bread machine flour but no more. 

Norma, yes please post the link to Pete's recipe, much appreciated.  Thanks so much.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: chickenparm on November 08, 2010, 10:31:44 PM
Hey folks,
Just reading and enjoying every bit of the pages and info.

I wanted to ask,has anyone tried Boar's Head brand for the mild white cheddar cheese yet?Or Land-o-Lakes brand found at a lot of east coast deli's?

Just suggestions for the cheese in case anyone has not tried it.I don't have those brands around here,but when I lived in NY they were superb brands.Would not surprise me if some of those places were using something similar or along those lines.
 :)




Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2010, 06:35:42 AM
For flour I use Red Mill.  I don't see many people mentioning that brand here.  I use it because it's high gluten machine flour and it's easily purchased at Albertson's grocery store.  Used to have Gold Medal high gluten bread machine flour but no more. 

Norma, yes please post the link to Pete's recipe, much appreciated.  Thanks so much.

PizzaEater101,

This is one formula and how Peter went about making his Mackís clone at Reply 301 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg98561.html#msg98561 He wasnít satisfied with that formula, especially the how the cheese was on that pie.  The other link to Peterís attempt that he had good results with is at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 Although I couldnít taste his pie, it does look a lot like a Mackís pizza.  Even the rim picture does look like Mackís. He was making a 18" pie and I was trying 16" pies. 

I had asked Peter awhile ago what I could change in the formula to try another attempt at Mackís crust, because I thought at the time that maybe Mackís had some connection to De Lorenzoís, because the Mackís family was from Trenton, NJ.  In this post at Reply 340, this is what he said. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg100273.html#msg100273   Peterís reply about me trying to change the dough formula to come closer to a Mackís pie is at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760
I have to soon try his suggestions to see what happens.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2010, 06:49:22 AM
Hey folks,
Just reading and enjoying every bit of the pages and info.

I wanted to ask,has anyone tried Boar's Head brand for the mild white cheddar cheese yet?Or Land-o-Lakes brand found at a lot of east coast deli's?

Just suggestions for the cheese in case anyone has not tried it.I don't have those brands around here,but when I lived in NY they were superb brands.Would not surprise me if some of those places were using something similar or along those lines.
 :)






chickenparm,

Thanks for saying you enjoyed reading the threads and info.  :)  I havenít tried the Boarís Head brand or Land-o-Lakes brands of mild white cheddar.  The closest cheese to Mackís pizza was the Acme brand of longhorn style mild white cheddar.  That tastes almost like a Mackís pizza. ERASMO found that brand of cheese. 

I think, but donít know, that Mackís purchases their mild white cheddar in 40 lb. blocks.  I know from having my small market stand, that I can purchase different kinds of cheeses from distributors that other members have trouble accessing.  There are even so many kinds of mild white cheddar at the wholesale level, that I donít know if we will ever get the mild white cheddar right.  Even in my area in Pa. there are many kinds of mild white cheddar, that can be purchased on the retail level, but non I have tried so far, come up to the taste of Mackís cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: chickenparm on November 09, 2010, 11:58:31 AM
Norma,
Has anyone simply asked them what brand it is? Or are they keeping it a secret?
 :)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 09, 2010, 12:35:35 PM
Norma,
Has anyone simply asked them what brand it is? Or are they keeping it a secret?
 :)

That's a good point because some restaurants will tell you what they use.  Maybe it's worth a try if no one had done that as of yet.  Don't ask the Kentucky Colonel that because his herbs and spices are very guarded but ask that of Mack's maybe they will tell. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 09, 2010, 02:01:36 PM
I made a pseudo Boardwalk Pizza today just about half hour ago.  No pics because it was not to the "t".  I did not get to swirl the sauce like many of you did.  I was going to follow Norma's foot steps and use a ketchup squeeze bottle (ingenious idea Norma) but I did not have one and didn't get around to getting one and was anxious to make the pizza.  So here I am I try to swirl with a spoon and it didn't work.  Put down the cheese then tried the swirl.  Result was a mess and too much sauce.  So I spread it out on the cheese like regular style of saucing up a pizza.  I then put more cheese on.  This time I did a simple cheese pizza not a pepperoni or meat loves type. 

Instead of veg oil I used bacon grease.  Why?  Well because I made bacon yesterday and had enough grease to work on it. Well I saved grease from the other day too with the intention of making a pizza. Before you get scared off yes it might be unhealthier than olive oil or others but we normally all put pepperoni or sausage on anyway and those are pretty greasy and this one is a cheese pizza only so maybe it works out.    I didn't use all cheddar.  I used about 60% mild white cheddar and 40% part skim moz.  Why you ask?  Because that's what I had.  I had some already ground up  in that percentage the other day so I just went with what I had.    So as you can see from what I say it was not to a "t".

I did though follow the forumla's percentages in regards to the dough.  So less hydration, I think more oil or in this case more bacon grease.  Or whatever the percentages are I followed them.   

Also because I never had a Mack's I figured I'd do the dough like it's supposed to and deviate on the cheese and the oil since I don't know what Mack's taste like. 

Oh I normally use the Sbarro sauce I have which I love so much but I used the Rago I had because it's heavy and I think the Boardwalk calls for a heavy sauce from what I read here.  I don't have the brand you guys use but the Rago is heavy and was good.

I thought the pizza was very good.  My wife says it's the best cheese pizza she had.  So I have to remember and use about 60% cheddar and 40% part skim mozz.   Well I have to try that and make sure that is what I really used in terms of percentages and keep that in my notes.   Next I make a NY dough/pizza with bacon grease and see how it turns out. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 09, 2010, 02:15:09 PM
I don't know it out here in the Wild West if we have a boardwalk or anything called or anything like that.  Not sure what a "boardwalk" really is but I have an idea.  I should go out to the beach areas and go to our boardwalk or whatever resembles it and try west coast boardwalk pizza.  I am not expecting great pizza like what Mack's is supposed to be but I wonder what we have.  Out in Venice Beach, Marina Del Rey and all those places they got pizza on the walk too.  I should check. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2010, 09:29:33 PM
Norma,
Has anyone simply asked them what brand it is? Or are they keeping it a secret?
 :)

chickenparm,

If you listen to the second video I posted  in Reply 213 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97856.html#msg97856 you can hear the lady sitting next to me ask about what kind of cheese Mackís uses on their pies.  He says they do use some cheddar.  I donít think Mackís would give out the information for what kind of cheddar they use.  That is what makes their pizzas so unique in my opinion.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 09, 2010, 09:42:21 PM
I made a pseudo Boardwalk Pizza today just about half hour ago.  No pics because it was not to the "t".  I did not get to swirl the sauce like many of you did.  I was going to follow Norma's foot steps and use a ketchup squeeze bottle (ingenious idea Norma) but I did not have one and didn't get around to getting one and was anxious to make the pizza.  So here I am I try to swirl with a spoon and it didn't work.  Put down the cheese then tried the swirl.  Result was a mess and too much sauce.  So I spread it out on the cheese like regular style of saucing up a pizza.  I then put more cheese on.  This time I did a simple cheese pizza not a pepperoni or meat loves type. 

Instead of veg oil I used bacon grease.  Why?  Well because I made bacon yesterday and had enough grease to work on it. Well I saved grease from the other day too with the intention of making a pizza. Before you get scared off yes it might be unhealthier than olive oil or others but we normally all put pepperoni or sausage on anyway and those are pretty greasy and this one is a cheese pizza only so maybe it works out.    I didn't use all cheddar.  I used about 60% mild white cheddar and 40% part skim moz.  Why you ask?  Because that's what I had.  I had some already ground up  in that percentage the other day so I just went with what I had.    So as you can see from what I say it was not to a "t".

I did though follow the forumla's percentages in regards to the dough.  So less hydration, I think more oil or in this case more bacon grease.  Or whatever the percentages are I followed them.   

Also because I never had a Mack's I figured I'd do the dough like it's supposed to and deviate on the cheese and the oil since I don't know what Mack's taste like. 

Oh I normally use the Sbarro sauce I have which I love so much but I used the Rago I had because it's heavy and I think the Boardwalk calls for a heavy sauce from what I read here.  I don't have the brand you guys use but the Rago is heavy and was good.

I thought the pizza was very good.  My wife says it's the best cheese pizza she had.  So I have to remember and use about 60% cheddar and 40% part skim mozz.   Well I have to try that and make sure that is what I really used in terms of percentages and keep that in my notes.   Next I make a NY dough/pizza with bacon grease and see how it turns out. 

PizzaEater101,

Great to hear your wife and you thought your pizza was good.  :) I like how you were inventive in using what ingredients you had.  I never heard of anyone using bacon grease in pizza dough, but maybe I just havenít seen a post of someone using bacon grease in pizza dough.   ::)

I enjoyed hearing about your pseudo Boardwalk Pizza. Your pizza making adventure sounded like the Wild, Wild West.  ;D I really didnít come up with the idea of using a ketchup bottle to use for applying the sauce. 

It would be interesting to hear what kind of boardwalk pizza you have in your area.  You never know, there might be some great pies there. 

If you want me to find the links on this thread what the boardwalk in Wildwood looks like, let me know and I will find the links.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on November 09, 2010, 09:48:41 PM
I don't know it out here in the Wild West if we have a boardwalk or anything called or anything like that.  Not sure what a "boardwalk" really is but I have an idea.  I should go out to the beach areas and go to our boardwalk or whatever resembles it and try west coast boardwalk pizza.  I am not expecting great pizza like what Mack's is supposed to be but I wonder what we have.  Out in Venice Beach, Marina Del Rey and all those places they got pizza on the walk too.  I should check. 

PE101,

I don't know where in the Wild West you are but we have a Boardwalk, albeit not as big as in Jersey, in Santa Cruz, CA.

Never had pizza there, though... ;)

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:03:27 AM
Essen, I'm in the greater Los Angeles area.  Not LA proper but the suburbs.  It's safe and clean where I am but I say the wild west because for the most part it's pretty crazy here and not much has changed since the days of the old west here in LA.  No, I'm not 125 years old to have lived back then and now but I can imagine it's just crazy in a different but similar way now than it was then.  I don't praise bad behavior but this is the wild west still.

I think in the old days Long Beach had a Boardwalk where the old amusement park is and has been restored.  Venice Beach had one and still does in a way but I don't think it's an authentic one. Same with Santa Monica  I should see if they have some pizza there.  I think I saw some never tried. 

The pics of Santa Cruz makes me think that the movie The Lost Boys with Keifer Sutherland was filmed there.  Looks like it though.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:04:57 AM
PizzaEater101,

Great to hear your wife and you thought your pizza was good.  :) I like how you were inventive in using what ingredients you had.  I never heard of anyone using bacon grease in pizza dough, but maybe I just havenít seen a post of someone using bacon grease in pizza dough.   ::)

I enjoyed hearing about your pseudo Boardwalk Pizza. Your pizza making adventure sounded like the Wild, Wild West.  ;D I really didnít come up with the idea of using a ketchup bottle to use for applying the sauce. 

It would be interesting to hear what kind of boardwalk pizza you have in your area.  You never know, there might be some great pies there. 

If you want me to find the links on this thread what the boardwalk in Wildwood looks like, let me know and I will find the links.

Norma

Norma I'd love to see the links you have for the Boardwalk in New Jersey.  Hey I love the song "Under The Boardwalk" by the Drifters, I take it that song is about the Boardwalk you mention.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Essen1 on November 10, 2010, 12:38:36 AM
Essen, I'm in the greater Los Angeles area.  Not LA proper but the suburbs.  It's safe and clean where I am but I say the wild west because for the most part it's pretty crazy here and not much has changed since the days of the old west here in LA.  No, I'm not 125 years old to have lived back then and now but I can imagine it's just crazy in a different but similar way now than it was then.  I don't praise bad behavior but this is the wild west still.

I think in the old days Long Beach had a Boardwalk where the old amusement park is and has been restored.  Venice Beach had one and still does in a way but I don't think it's an authentic one. Same with Santa Monica  I should see if they have some pizza there.  I think I saw some never tried. 

The pics of Santa Cruz makes me think that the movie The Lost Boys with Keifer Sutherland was filmed there.  Looks like it though.

PE101,

I saw that Long Beach Boardwalk in its current state. Should be preserved because Cali doesn't have much of that kind of heritage.

I'm in the SF Bay Area, Marin County. Had a girlfriend from Lakewood for about three years so I know a little bit about the location. Smog killed me, though. I couldn't live there, sorry. No disrespect intended.

But yes, Santa Cruz it was. I didn't know that.

http://www.fast-rewind.com/locations_lostboys.htm

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:43:51 AM
PE101,

I saw that Long Beach Boardwalk in its current state. Should be preserved because Cali doesn't have much of that kind of heritage.

I'm in the SF Bay Area, Marin County. Had a girlfriend from Lakewood for about three years so I know a little bit about the location. Smog killed me, though. I couldn't live there, sorry. No disrespect intended.

But yes, Santa Cruz it was. I didn't know that.

http://www.fast-rewind.com/locations_lostboys.htm



No disrespect taken my good man.  Even though I live here this is a trash bin but I love it.  I'm so LA.  It's like this, there are good and bad parts here.  I live in the good part and go to the good parts and seldom go to the bad areas but overall this is not so nice.  Go to Miami, now that is nice.  But in recent years the smog has not been as bad as it used to be.  Not sure why just is not as bad.  It's fairly breathable though now. 

I have not been to the LB Boardwalk but I have seen it from a distance.  Maybe distance of half a mile but I never actually go there.  Years ago when filming the Six Million Dollar Man they found a mummified person that turned out to be from the old west.  Some how he ended up there closed in some boarded off room.  They thought it was a dummy for the Boardwalk of yesteryear until an arm came off and they noticed he was real and human and did research and he was from the old west. 

Isn't Santa Cruz a big time skateboarding and surfing town?  Maybe with you in No Cal you can make No Cal a big time pizza local!

Thanks for the link.  So I was right that was the Boardwalk of Santa Cruz.  I was right!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2010, 08:38:33 AM
Norma I'd love to see the links you have for the Boardwalk in New Jersey.  Hey I love the song "Under The Boardwalk" by the Drifters, I take it that song is about the Boardwalk you mention.



PizzaEater101,

Here is how the song ďUnder the BoardwalkĒ came about.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under_the_Boardwalk   When I was a teenager back in the 60's that was considered a raunchy song, because most thought the song said, "We'll be making love", under the Boardwalk.  Times have sure changed in what kind of songs there are today. I also love the song, ďUnder the BoardwalkĒ.  It was a favorite song of my fatherís and now is even a favorite song of my granddaughters.  My father and mother took me to Wildwood many times when I was small.  I have great memories of Wildwood.  Each year when they would add a more wicked amusement rides, my father and I would try out that ride and also have so much fun in the ocean at Wildwood.  This is a song written about Wildwood and sung by Bobby Rydell.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUUmdTOZUck  Some of my Wildwood Days were ďwildĒ, especially during my teen years.  :-D  Dancing to the ďTwistĒ and seeing all those up and coming performers at dances in Wildwood, will always live in my memories.  That is one reason I think Mackís pizza is so special to me, even after all these years.
 
The Wildwood boardwalk is about 2 miles long.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boardwalk#Wildwood.2C_New_Jersey

This is where I replied with two links about Wildwoodís boardwalk. Reply 203 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97693.html#msg97693 In Reply 226 I posted on what a trip to Wildwood was like with pictures in the following posts.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97919.html#msg97919

If you are interested, I did a forum search on using bacon grease in a dough.  This is what I found.  Reply 72 by ZekeTheCat http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2061.msg71347.html#msg71347 Another post by ZekeTheCat at Reply 7 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3092.msg26373.html#msg26373 and a post by Jackitup at Reply 10  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6383.msg55029.html#msg55029

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:45:41 PM
Norma, thank you for the links.  I am listening to the Bobby Rydell song right now.  It's great.  I never heard it before so it's good you sent me the link. I know his other songs but didn't know this one.

Man I had no idea that "Under The Boardwalk" was considered dirty in the old days.  I was born in 1967 so I never heard the song until I was about 15 or 16 in the early '80s but I did love it instantly.  To me when I heard it and still hear it, it does not sound dirty.  "Making Love" I always thought they meant a guy and girl going out and being in love and holding hands and kissing.  I figured in the days of yesteryear making love the term was not meant as something dirty but just meant what it was called, "making love" in other words in love.  Nowadays music is very bad.  Not all but a lot of music is very dirty in nature and it's too bad because it was never like that.  Even in the early '80s current music of the time was not that dirty, now and then yeah but nowadays it's so bad.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:52:23 PM
Thanks for the links Norma.  I just read the info on the song "Under The Boardwalk" and the one on the Boardwalk as well.  It was very interesting.

I checked your post on the Boardwalk and your photos.  If I ever make it backeast I will make sure I go to the Boardwalk and try some Mack's.  I should put up some photos of our very own Santa Monica Pier.  Not a boardwalk but kinda reminds me of it.

Thanks for the link on the bacon grease thing. I will read it.  I have not yet but gonna now.  I'm curious about how people feel about bacon grease in their dough and how they turned out.

Man I wanna make another Boardwalk pie but this time I get the ketchup bottle because it would sure help.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 12:54:31 PM
Oh here is a link to a song and video called "I Love LA" by Randy Newman. He's well known for the song "Short People" but this song made everyone forget about "Short People" and think of "I Love LA".  This is the best we can do in So Cal in terms of these kind of boardwalk places.  Venice Beach is shown here.  Believe me VB is a mess.  Bums and scummy people and weird people all over the place but I go there sometimes but not often.  This song was released I believe 1984.  It appears that members of Toto are in this video too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=le5aIqn_MfE
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 03:00:55 PM
It's me again with another posting!  I made another pie.  I made a pseudo Mack's again. 

This time I did use a squeeze bottle and the whole thing was better than last time.  I didn't do the sauce layout as well as some of the others here but it was pretty good.  For cheese I used about 10% Muenster, 45% Fontina, and 45% white mild cheddar.  It turned out good.  As usual a 12 inch pizza pie.  I will post photos soon.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 03:30:00 PM
Here are some pics.  Sadly when I wanted to take pics I found out the real digi cam's batteries were drained and didn't have any replacements so I took with cell camera.  Quality of photos not so great, maybe blurry but you get an idea of how my pseudo Mack's pizza turns out.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2010, 03:39:08 PM
PizzaEater101

If you go back on Reply 71 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96338.html#msg96338   you can see that on the link for Slice, on Shout-Outs, they have Mackís and Mack and Mancos listed in the 25 vote-getters in his spreadsheets from Adam Kuban.

Good to hear you ketcup squeeze bottle worked well.  I had used a cake pastry bag in my first attempts at the Mackís pizza.  It was Peter that gave me the idea to use a squeeze bottle at Reply 101 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96820.html#msg96820

Since I am older, I grew up in the days of no TV, until I was about 5 years old and then all it was  about Howdy Doody to me.  That is why my childhood was so different than children today. The first movie I saw that made me think, was ďA Summer PlaceĒ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Summer_Place_(film)#Plot  When I went to Wildwood, when I was a teen the teens the were more different than from my small town, where I grew up.  Most of them were from Philly.  That is why most peers of mine thought ďUnder the BoardwalkĒ, was questionable in the lyrics at that time.  I liked your ďI Love LAĒ song.  I never heard that before.  I have never been to California. 

Good to hear you made another pseudo Mack's pizza again.  The photos of you pseudo Mackís pizza look good to me.  :)  Thanks for posting them and going along with us on this thread.   ;D Which formula did you use for your pseudo Mackís pizza?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 03:50:28 PM
Norma, California is okay, you didn't miss much by not coming here.  You really need to go to Florida if you have not yet.  Now that's the place to go.  Very nice.
 
The formula I got was from this thread and it might have been yours or maybe Pete's.  I think it was yours.  Well I used the percentages and used the extended calculator to figure it out for a 12 inch pizza x 2.

Flour 100%
Water 55%
IDY .35%
Salt (Kosher) 2%
Oil (I used the bacon grease) 6%
Sugar 2%
Total 165.35%

Norma thanks for the compliment on my pizza.  It did taste good!  Now a Leahmann NY Pizza I have to make. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 03:52:31 PM
Norma, I just checked out that link and saw Mack on it.  Pretty impressive to be on the top 25 list. 

Hey wait, I see Norma's Homemade Pizza made it to the top 25 too!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 10, 2010, 04:01:00 PM
Do any of you toss and spin the dough in the air?  I did this time and it worked out pretty good.  I'm getting better at it nowadays.  This Mack dough went well through the air and spun around quit well.  I don't know if it's the low hydration or something that caused a consistency in the dough that allowed me to spin well or I did a good job just on my own.  When I do an NY Pizza that will be the test if I can do it again.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 10, 2010, 04:21:43 PM
PizzaEater101,

Thank for posting what formula you used.  LOL, my pizzas wonít ever made the top 25 list. I did toss and spin the dough on this thread in a video.  I am not good at tossing the dough like the Piemen at Mackís are.  It amazes me how well they can toss the dough.  Good to hear you were able to ďtoss & spin the dough.Ē  A lower hydration dough is easier to toss in my opinion.  Keep up the good work in continuing your experiments.  Best of luck in the Lehmann dough pizza.  :)

Norma.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: trentonpie77 on December 19, 2010, 11:52:56 AM
got around to trying the acme brand longhorn mild white cheddar as has been suggested here. to me, it's not the answer. the taste is ok, but the texture when using this cheese by itself is off. somehow it's just too soft and thin after cooking.. it also lacks that classic mack and manco's 'bite.' to be clear -- my points of reference are mack and manco's ocean city, and macks on oregon ave. (not macks of wildwood.) my best results come from a mix of white cheddar and part skim mozz.       
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 19, 2010, 01:01:35 PM
got around to trying the acme brand longhorn mild white cheddar as has been suggested here. to me, it's not the answer. the taste is ok, but the texture when using this cheese by itself is off. somehow it's just too soft and thin after cooking.. it also lacks that classic mack and manco's 'bite.' to be clear -- my points of reference are mack and manco's ocean city, and macks on oregon ave. (not macks of wildwood.) my best results come from a mix of white cheddar and part skim mozz.       

trentonpie77,

Thanks for posting you did try the Acme brand of mild longhorn white cheddar and what you thought of the results in the taste.  I haven't tried a mix of any white cheddars and part-skim mozzarellas.  I don't know if we will ever find out what brand of white cheddar Mack's or Mack and Manco"s uses.  Your are right there is some kind of bite to the taste of the pie from the cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: fireman117 on December 22, 2010, 05:01:56 PM
Hi All,

Having a great time with this thread, and can't wait to see the outcome. This pizza looks great.
In response to post 142 about the cheddar.

You see Formost coop signs in front of many dairy farms here in WI.  I believe they are a rather large outfit. Not sure how easy it is to get product from them.

Wisconsin  IS the dairy state with many other excellent cheese businesses.
You might want to check these guys out:

http://www.wegastardairy.com/

They make an excellent whole milk Mozzarella (which is available direct only), and, the other cheeses that are available through the local grocers like Pick n Save or Woodmanns Market are really good, Plus, their prices are reasonable.

They are super nice on the phone and will ship you whatever you order same day. I've had excellent experiences with them and I'll bet they can supply you with the cheddar you're looking for.  As I said their Mozzarella is excellent!

Give them a try!

Eric

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 06:13:08 PM
fireman117,

Glad to hear your are having a great time in this thread.   :)

I do buy cheese from Foremost Farms from my distributor, but my distributor doesnít carry any Foremost Farms cheese that tastes like Mackís cheese.  I also tried the State Brand of cheddar with no success.  The flavors of both brands of cheese are good, but not like Mackís.

Thanks for the link and posting about how to buy cheese from them.

I donít know, but think only after we know exactly what kind of cheese Mackís uses, then we might be able to purchase some to try on a Mackís clone.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on December 22, 2010, 06:17:02 PM
I will be back in the dumpster this summer!!!!!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 06:32:31 PM
I will be back in the dumpster this summer!!!!!!

ERASMO,

Great to hear what you are going to be doing this coming summer.  ;D  If I have time, I might join you!  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on December 22, 2010, 06:36:54 PM
Norma

Will you be down the shore this summer?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 22, 2010, 06:40:41 PM
Norma

Will you be down the shore this summer?


ERASMO,

I am not sure at this time, but do want to go this coming summer.   8)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza Reply 309
Post by: fireman117 on December 28, 2010, 03:24:55 PM
Hi Norma and All,

Iíve been watching this thread with great interest but I'm only up to reply 318 so far.

I didn't surprise me too much about the cheddar cheese. As kids we would make those lousy Chef Boy-R-Dee pizza kits and if we wanted any thing other than the parmesan that came with it, weíd have to scrounge around the fridge for whatever cheese might be there. And guess what every refrigerator in the state of Wisconsin has in it. CHEDDAR! So we'd put that on and things would really start to improve.  Now, with that in mind, I also think it's an excellent idea for pizza. Lotís of flavor.

I could do a little research for you without too much trouble and see who has what.  WI has lots of medium sized dairies and they're real good at making cheese.

We might be able to get you what you need for testing without too much trouble. For example I called over to Star Dairy a few minutes ago and talked to one of the cheese guys there and he said they don't regularly make "white" cheddar, but if you gave him a call, the next time he made curds, he'd make you a ring or two up. Can they ship to Pennsylvania, no problem. I have whole milk Mozzarella shipped to me here in Milwaukee, and it's been flawless. If you want some help please let me know. I'd also like to see this Mack's pizza thing work out. It looks great.

Here is there address and phone number: If the order takers donít know about the white cheddar, ask to talk to one of the cheese makers.
http://www.wegastardairy.com/
(920) 867-2870

I have company coming over Thursday and want to give this thing a try. As I said I haven't read this whole thread, but here's where I'm at. I made up the dough last night and stored it in the fridge until Thursday.  Finished dough temp was 80 degrees, then right into the fridge in two round covered containers. I'm using Dakota Maid Bread flour and SAF Instant yeast.

I used the dough calculator for two 14 inch pies and I've stuck with this recipe for a while and have very good results overall except for the stretching thing. Sometimes the dough stretches right out, sometimes not. I let it temper on the counter for a couple of hours and try not to disturb it until I'm ready to make the pies.  I canít toss! Is this close enough to make it work? (I didnít see Peterís #301 reply on the crust improvements until today).

Total weight 930 g with a 58% hydration.
Flour 577 g
H20 335g
IDY 2.31 g/.61 t
NaCl 10 g
Oil (Olive) 5.77 g

 Norma, I'm a little lost on the sauce. Except it seems to be a thinned out paste based sauce with oregano and black pepper. Is that right? Here's what I have on hand for tomato product. I have cans of Cento diced or Puree, Pastine San Marzano with Basil, Red Gold Petite diced. Hunt's or Red Gold Paste or an emergency can of Dei Fratelli Pizza Sauce.

If you could give me an idea of what the sauce is like that would be great.

Thank you,
Eric
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 28, 2010, 09:59:05 PM
Eric,

I know this is a long thread.  I have access to many kinds of milk white cheddar cheese in my area and I have tried a fair amount for Mackís pies and so far none of them are the exact cheese Mackís uses. I even called distributors near where Mackí and Mac and Mancos are, and so far havenít had any luck in finding out who distributes Mackís cheese.

Thanks you for contacting a dairy about getting some mild white cheddar to try.  I appreciate your help on this thread.  I wish I knew the exact kind of milk white cheddar Mackís uses, but I donít know.

I donít know anything about Dakota Maid Bread flour and donít know how that will turn out in a Mackís clone pizza.  I have been using Kyrol flour for my attempts for a Mackís clone.  That is the kind of flour Mackís uses. 

This was the last formula I tried at my attempt to make a Mackís pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

As for the sauce Mackís uses it is Gangi.  It is like a thick paste, and in my opinion it is not sweet.  I am not familiar with the kinds of pastes you have, but I think most pastes would work out okay if you thinned them down some.  I think Mackís uses oregano and black pepper in their sauce.  I would tend to think Mackís sauce would taste something like Walmartís brand of tomato paste from times I tasted the Walmart brand.

I wish I could be of more help.  If I can help you in any other way, let me know. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: fireman117 on December 29, 2010, 10:42:11 AM
Hi Norma,
Thanks for the info and I'll take a look at your last attempt.  By the way all the others I saw looked real good.
A couple of questions. Is the Gangi product available anywhere?
I couldnít find out much about them except apparently they were associated with the Dei Fratelli family in CA way long time ago, and now are owned by Teasdale??, who can pinto beans in the same location in Atwater CA. Note the address is the same.

http://www.manta.com/c/mmcnr3q/sun-garden-gangi-canning-company-llc

http://www.teasdale.net/contact_teasdale.php

But, I couldn't even find a distributor for the product or even any pictures of the can. Could you post a picture?

When you thin out the paste what is the consistency like? About ketchup thickness? And is it cooked or just mixed?
I have Hunt's and Red Gold on hand, but I could whip over to Wal-Mart and pick up a couple of cans of paste.

As for the Dakota Maid, I'm no expert, but Iíve had very good luck with their products and their prices are reasonable, $12.50/25lbs. bread flour.
Here the link showing some of their products. I have a request in with them for the specs on their flours.

https://www.ndmill.com/bakery.cfm
.
Any way Iím going to give this a try on Thursday, but Iím going to use the whole milk Mozzarella, because thatís what I have on hand. Next time Iíll try it with your last attempt and the Star Dairy cheddar.  Iíll post some pix unless I have a disaster!

Thank you for the info, and just a side note. A year ago this month I discovered the site and it has been enlightening to say the least. I went from not being able to make a pizza that was edible to something in the very acceptable range, with consistent results.

Thank you all!

Eric


Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 29, 2010, 12:29:03 PM
Eric,

I am not sure about where Gangi sauce can be purchased other than Bova Foods.  http://www.bovafoods.com/products.html  njbruce posted at Reply 436  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105488.html#msg105488 that Gangi sauce can be purchased at http://supremedairyfarms.com/   Peter posted in the next Reply 437 the link to the catalog http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105490.html#msg105490

ERASMO also reported that Mack and Mancos uses Gangi Sauce at Reply 434 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg105400.html#msg105400

I also saw the Gangi sauce when I went to Wildwood.

In this Reply 341 from me, I did use the Gangi sauce at home to make a pizza.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg98557.html#msg98557 and an attempt I made at market at a Mackís clone, using the Gangi sauce at Reply 149 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97425.html#msg97425 In Reply 95 there is a picture of a can of Gangi sauce, that Steve (Ev) went to Bova Foods to purchase for me at Reply 95 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg96781.html#msg96781

The Gangi sauce is dark red and needs to be thinned down.  It is kinda bitter to my taste buds, but when baked on a pizza, the taste changes.  I would tend to think that Walmart paste would be able to be about same from other tests I did with the Walmart paste.  The sauce is applied fairly thick.

Best of luck in trying a Mackís clone.  :)  Mozzarella should turn out great on your pie.  Post pictures if you have success.

I only found this forum about a year and a half ago and I also found the forum very enlightening.  My pizza making skills went from non-existent to be able to make many different kinds of pies, but I am still learning.  Glad to hear this forum has helped you too!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on December 30, 2010, 10:34:26 AM
A poster on another pizza site stated that he worked for a pizzeria that made a Grotto's clone in Delaware. They used Conte pizza sauce with oregano,red pepper, and white colby cheese.  I did some research and found out that Conte also makes Furmano's brand.
This past year i asked for (and received) cardboard cups of raw sauce from Mack's and Grotto.  Both sauces were watery, bitter, and had a strong oregano kick.   I purchased Furmano's original pizza sauce and duplicated the taste of the raw sauces by watering it down and adding a lot of oregano and a pinch of red pepper.  I also had a slightly better result with Red Pack tomato puree treated the same way.  However, when cooked it lost the familiar tang of Mack's pizza.

This summer, I went to Bova Foods and bought three 107 oz. cans of Gangi heavy sauce with basil.  The taste and consistency is identical to any brand of tomato paste.  But when watered down, hit with a heavy hand of oregano, and a pinch of black pepper - it emerges from the oven with that distinct sweet and tangy flavor.  Amazing stuff.   I have had great success using the sauce frozen in smaller conainers - no loss of flavor.

I go to Mack and Manco Too, in Somers Point, NJ, once a week and the sauce is dead on.  A crazy thing about M&M2 is that they open and hand stretch their doughs two at a time!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 10:52:54 AM
A poster on another pizza site stated that he worked for a pizzeria that made a Grotto's clone in Delaware. They used Conte pizza sauce with oregano,red pepper, and white colby cheese.  I did some research and found out that Conte also makes Furmano's brand.
This past year i asked for (and received) cardboard cups of raw sauce from Mack's and Grotto.  Both sauces were watery, bitter, and had a strong oregano kick.   I purchased Furmano's original pizza sauce and duplicated the taste of the raw sauces by watering it down and adding a lot of oregano and a pinch of red pepper.  I also had a slightly better result with Red Pack tomato puree treated the same way.  However, when cooked it lost the familiar tang of Mack's pizza.

This summer, I went to Bova Foods and bought three 107 oz. cans of Gangi heavy sauce with basil.  The taste and consistency is identical to any brand of tomato paste.  But when watered down, hit with a heavy hand of oregano, and a pinch of black pepper - it emerges from the oven with that distinct sweet and tangy flavor.  Amazing stuff.   I have had great success using the sauce frozen in smaller conainers - no loss of flavor.

I go to Mack and Manco Too, in Somers Point, NJ, once a week and the sauce is dead on.  A crazy thing about M&M2 is that they open and hand stretch their doughs two at a time!

BOARDWALKER,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for your help in this thread.  :) I am familiar with the Furmanoís brand.  Your are quite the detective in obtaining raw sauce from Mackís and Grottoís.  8)  I agree that the sauce Mackís uses does have a bitter taste before baked on their pizzas.  I am glad you had a chance to buy some Gangi Sauce and compare it to other tomato pastes.  This will help other people that canít get the Gangi sauce be able to prepare a sauce like the Mackís.  I had thought while trying to compare the Gangi to Walmart paste, I had thought it tasted about the same, but since I was only one person doing the comparison, I didnít know if I was right.  I was also intrigued how the tomato sauce changes after the sauce is baked into pizza.

I never saw any of the piemen opening two skins at once and I would really like to see that.  That is crazy.  I wonder how they got their opening skills. 

Do you think when you make your pizzas that white colby cheese does give your pizzas a taste like Mackís pies?  We still are trying to find a cheese like Mackís or M&Mís.  There is a certain zing to their cheese, whatever it is.

If you have time and want to, I think everyone would like to see pictures of your pies.

Thanks again for helping to be able to make a pie like this.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on December 30, 2010, 12:23:24 PM
I have seen them open two doughs at a time at the Wildwood Macks.  Would that mean a high oil content in the dough recipe?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on December 30, 2010, 03:26:49 PM
I have seen them open two doughs at a time at the Wildwood Macks.  Would that mean a high oil content in the dough recipe?

ERASMO,

It is hard to say. Extensibility is a function of so many different things, including the type of flour, the hydration level, the way the dough is made, whether oil is used in the dough and how much, and how the dough is fermented and for how long. This makes it difficult to pinpoint any single factor. However, from my experimentation at home, I thought that hydration was an important factor and also getting a robust dough. Since I played around with low hydration values, I found it difficult using only my KitchenAid stand mixer, even with modest amounts of oil, to get a particularly robust dough that held up to some pretty rough handling and could be tossed and spun with relative ease. As I reported elsewhere, I ended up using a combination of my 14-cup Cuisinart food processor and my KitchenAid stand mixer with a C-hook to make the dough. I also apportioned the water and oil such that the combination was around 60%.

I think the answer may be in achieving the proper relative amounts of water and oil in the dough. If we were to discover that there is no oil in the dough, then I would point the finger at hydration, particularly low hydration, even with the Kyrol high-gluten flour. Having a good mixer would also be a big factor in getting a quality dough that stands up well to handling. Maybe using a Bosch mixer in a home setting would come close to emulating a commercial stand mixer such as used at Mack's.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on December 30, 2010, 03:53:55 PM
There is a photo of two doughs being opened on the website: MackandMancoPizzaToo.com
 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 04:32:22 PM
There is a photo of two doughs being opened on the website: MackandMancoPizzaToo.com
  

BOARDWALKER,

Thanks for the photo of two doughs being opened at once.  :)  I would like to see that in person. This is the link you provided.  I know ERASMO did see two doughs being opened at once.

http://mackandmancopizzatoo.com/

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: fireman117 on December 30, 2010, 05:02:51 PM
Norma,

Did you ever figure out the supplier for the ACME Cheddar? If you think it's made in WI I would be willing to do some detective work. I could call/ask around, and see if anyone knows anything. If the ACME is a private brand and made here, my guess is thereís lots of it being made. Other wise it would not be economical to manufacture. Just have to figure out locally. Maybe by good old taste testing, if nothing else.

Last night I went to "The Outpost" (a snazzy mostly organic grocer here), and found several versions of "white cheddar", $ including 2 organic ones made with raw milk. $$$!

They are made here and are hand cut so I think the dairy will ship you small quantities if you want to give 'em a try.

The brand names are "Beechwood" https://www.beechwoodcheese.com/store/comersus_listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=3

and "Cedar Grove",
http://my.execpc.com/~cgcheese/MailOrders.html

I donít know about Beechwood, but Iíve used the Cedar Grove whole milk mozzarella in the past and itís quite good.

Might be worth a try, an option to the elusive ACME.

I also found out from the cheese guy at Star that, (and I'm sure you know this), the "white" cheddar is mainly an east coast thing. He also said that the color added does not change the taste or texture, so you might want to consider trying out the various WI ďyellowĒ versions for testing, and if you find something you like, see if they would be willing to make up some ďwhiteĒ for you. Just an idea.

Could you explain the ďpoppy seedĒ thing if you have a moment?

Well I have to go home and make my faux Mackís (with the mozzarella) now for the guests.

Iíll post some pics tomorrow. (Unless itís a disaster)!

Eric
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 30, 2010, 05:35:16 PM
Eric,

At Reply 419 is where I posted about the reply from Schreiber Foods for Acme cheese  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg104204.html#msg104204

and at Reply 467  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg108565.html#msg108565 I posted I had emailed Jim Jirschele about getting cheddar cheese like Acme, but never received a reply. 
Jim Jirschele had told me in another telephone conversation that he would check to see if there were any other cheese that would be about the same as the Acme cheese across the country.

Every type of white cheddar I have tried so far has tasted good on a clone Mackís, but they are all different when tasted and then baked on a pie.  I think we will have to try to find the real Mackís cheese at some point, to be able to come up with an exact cheese taste of Mackís pies.

This is where Peter posted about the ďpoppy seedĒ trick and how to use it. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6914.msg59335.html#msg59335

Good luck with your Mackís clone.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: fireman117 on December 31, 2010, 01:17:12 PM
Hi All,

Here's the first attempt. But with the mozzarella I had on hand. We all thought it turned out real nice. But of course no one's going to criticize the cook!

The crust was very easy to stretch out, but as you can see I can't seem to figure out how to flatten out that edge.  I was also surprised how much oven spring there was considering the 3 day refridgerator rise.  But anyway it tasted pretty good, slid right off the paddle, and the smoke alarm only went off once.

Norma,
Next time I'm going to try your recipe fro the link you posted.

The other pizza I made for the gang was nothing more than pesto, sun dried tomatoes, mozzarella, and a little grated Romano cheese. For some reason it was a big hit.

Sorry about the horrible photography on the close ups.

Eric
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: fireman117 on December 31, 2010, 01:19:11 PM
Whoops I blew it with the pictures. Here they are
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on December 31, 2010, 01:37:56 PM
Hi All,

Here's the first attempt. But with the mozzarella I had on hand. We all thought it turned out real nice. But of course no one's going to criticize the cook!

The crust was very easy to stretch out, but as you can see I can't seem to figure out how to flatten out that edge.  I was also surprised how much oven spring there was considering the 3 day refridgerator rise.  But anyway it tasted pretty good, slid right off the paddle, and the smoke alarm only went off once.

Norma,
Next time I'm going to try your recipe fro the link you posted.

The other pizza I made for the gang was nothing more than pesto, sun dried tomatoes, mozzarella, and a little grated Romano cheese. For some reason it was a big hit.

Sorry about the horrible photography on the close ups.

Eric


Eric,

Your first attempt does look very tasty!  :)  It is up to you if you want a flatten edge or not.  If I hadnít really pressed on the whole rim, I think my pies would have also gotten a bigger rim.  When I watched the piemen on the videos and in person, they really press the edges of their dough, with their fingertips.

You made me laugh when you said your smoke alarm only went off once.  :-D I had the same problem with the one pie I made.  When I tried to slide the 16" pizza onto the 16" baking stone, I misjudged it and part of the rim was off the baking stone. By that time the dough was stuck to the stone and mozzarella dripped onto my elements.  I also had all my smoke alarms going off. 

I believe any pizza that is made at home is much better than most pizzas that can be bought.  You did a great job!

Thanks for posting pictures of your pie.  I would eat a slice of your pie in a NY minute.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: benfranklin on January 03, 2011, 07:32:59 PM
As far as Grotto's is concerned, I've heard several stories from different sources that Grotto's is an offshoot of Mack's. They were either related or business partners. That's why there is no crossover in coverage areas.
Several years back we had a local pizza joint that made Grotto's clones. According to one of the guys that ran the place they were also an offshoot of Grotto's and had an agreement that Grotto's would not open a store within 10 miles of them. He also gave me a sample of their cheese to taste and said it was a cheddar mixture but wouldn't elaborate any further. They closed down several years ago.
I got to talking to the manager of a Grotto's about a year ago since he was trying to impress me with his pizza knowledge. Said the cheese is a combination of 4 or 5 cheddars and that's why it's so hard to duplicate.
You can now buy jars of Grotto's own pizza  sauce and their cheese in most Grottos. The block of cheese you buy from Grottos is only one component of the mixture but I believe it is the most important component that gives it that distinctive taste. It's pretty strong on only takes a handful as compared to several handfuls of the other cheddars.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 03, 2011, 09:11:42 PM
As far as Grotto's is concerned, I've heard several stories from different sources that Grotto's is an offshoot of Mack's. They were either related or business partners. That's why there is no crossover in coverage areas.
Several years back we had a local pizza joint that made Grotto's clones. According to one of the guys that ran the place they were also an offshoot of Grotto's and had an agreement that Grotto's would not open a store within 10 miles of them. He also gave me a sample of their cheese to taste and said it was a cheddar mixture but wouldn't elaborate any further. They closed down several years ago.
I got to talking to the manager of a Grotto's about a year ago since he was trying to impress me with his pizza knowledge. Said the cheese is a combination of 4 or 5 cheddars and that's why it's so hard to duplicate.
You can now buy jars of Grotto's own pizza  sauce and their cheese in most Grottos. The block of cheese you buy from Grottos is only one component of the mixture but I believe it is the most important component that gives it that distinctive taste. It's pretty strong on only takes a handful as compared to several handfuls of the other cheddars.


benfranklin,

Welcome to the forum.  :)
I wondered before if there was any connection to Grottoís and Mackís after a customer of mine tasted a slice of one of the clones I made and said it tasted just like Grottoís pizza.  I am not sure, but think that is when I was using the State Brand of sharp cheddar.  He even came back about a month later and asked if I was making those pies that tasted like Grottoís.  I told him no, that I was just experimenting with the Mackís type of pizza.  Steve (Ev) was even there both times at market when that man came by.  I had read somewhere on the web that Grottoís uses a part cheddar and mozzarella blend.  I donít know how true that is. 

That was nice that the manager of Grottoís gave you a slice of cheese to taste.  I can imagine if there is a blend of 4 or 5 cheddars, that is why Mackís cheese is so hard to duplicate.  I might have to try mixing cheddars to see if the mixed cheedars can give a better flavor like Mackís cheese. 

Thanks for saying a block of cheese can be bought from Grottoís.  I donít know if I will ever be able to get near Grottoís, but if I am, I will try to purchase some cheese. 

Thanks so much for your help on this thread.  :)  In my opinion if we can ever get the cheese right, this will help a lot.

Did you ever make a pie with Grottoís cheese and see what the taste of the cheese tastes like, after it is baked?   There is something about Mackís cheese that does have a different tang when baked, that I never tasted on any other pizza before. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: benfranklin on January 05, 2011, 09:50:21 AM
Yes, Norma, I've tried both Grotto's cheese and sauce on homemade pies and there's no question they are the real deal. But the cheese, as stated, is only the tangy component of the cheddar mix. But that is probably the hardest part of the mix to find. Tastes like no other cheese I've bought from stores and I've tried a lot of cheddar brands.
I haven't had Mack's in over 40 years but I still remember that taste! I believe Grotto's and Macks have a different crust which makes a difference in the overall taste of the pizza. There's a rumor going around the Delaware Beaches that Grotto's uses lard in their crusts. There are several Grotto's in PA and several in northern Delaware if you know anyone going to those areas. C'mon, all your PA shoppers travel to Delaware to enjoy the sales tax free shopping! :-)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 05, 2011, 01:43:09 PM
Yes, Norma, I've tried both Grotto's cheese and sauce on homemade pies and there's no question they are the real deal. But the cheese, as stated, is only the tangy component of the cheddar mix. But that is probably the hardest part of the mix to find. Tastes like no other cheese I've bought from stores and I've tried a lot of cheddar brands.
I haven't had Mack's in over 40 years but I still remember that taste! I believe Grotto's and Macks have a different crust which makes a difference in the overall taste of the pizza. There's a rumor going around the Delaware Beaches that Grotto's uses lard in their crusts. There are several Grotto's in PA and several in northern Delaware if you know anyone going to those areas. C'mon, all your PA shoppers travel to Delaware to enjoy the sales tax free shopping! :-)

benfranklin,

Thanks for posting in this thread that the Grottoís cheese and sauce are the real deal.  It is interesting that Grottoís would sell the tangy component of the cheddar mix, that is hard to find.  It now makes me wonder more what the tangy component cheddar could be.  I know there is a certain tang to Mackís cheese and this is what has been throwing this project off in terms of the taste of the taste of the cheese.  I wonder why a place like Grottoís, Mackís or Mack & Mancos would go to the trouble of mixing cheddars, when Mackís seems to be buying the cheaper Kyrol flour.  I also wonder if somehow Grottoís famlies and Mackís families were somehow related if they know what cheese blend to use.

I will search to see if there is a Grottoís near me that might sell the cheese.  We donít have tax free shopping in our area on a lot of things, but clothes and other things are tax free.  We have many outlet stores in the Lancaster County area.  Many people come from NY and NJ to shop here.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on January 05, 2011, 03:24:03 PM
The piemen at Mack's and Mack and Manco are constantly running the shredded cheese through their fingers in between pies.  Could they be ensuring a thorough blending of several cheeses?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on January 05, 2011, 03:30:02 PM
The piemen at Mack's and Mack and Manco are constantly running the shredded cheese through their fingers in between pies.  Could they be ensuring a thorough blending of several cheeses?

     I have noticed that also but I had assumed that was done because the cheddar has a habit of sticking together more so than mozzarella does.  When I experimented with the cheddar on my pizzas I noticed that if I left the cheddar out on the counter after shredding for any length of time it started to stick together.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on January 05, 2011, 05:57:51 PM
Filthy hands = tangy cheese.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: benfranklin on January 05, 2011, 11:03:40 PM
Norma, I've seen the cheese and sauce for sale at three separate Grotto's location in northern Delaware. I assume all Grotto's sell it. The cheese isn't cheap but it doesn't take much to add that tang to the cheese mix.
If you can't make out the label on the cheese, it reads:
Grotto Pizza proudly presents the very cheese that has made Grotto Pizza legendary for the past half century. The authentic Grotto cheese was produced and aged by one of Wisconsin's most renowned Cheese Masters, the same individual who oversees the production of all Grotto cheese.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on January 06, 2011, 07:57:20 AM
Norma, I've seen the cheese and sauce for sale at three separate Grotto's location in northern Delaware. I assume all Grotto's sell it. The cheese isn't cheap but it doesn't take much to add that tang to the cheese mix.
If you can't make out the label on the cheese, it reads:
Grotto Pizza proudly presents the very cheese that has made Grotto Pizza legendary for the past half century. The authentic Grotto cheese was produced and aged by one of Wisconsin's most renowned Cheese Masters, the same individual who oversees the production of all Grotto cheese.

Thanks for that info.
I will be heading to Smyrna DE this week and wondered if the Newark or Bear locations sell the sauce and cheese?

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 06, 2011, 08:56:22 AM
benfranklin,

Thanks so much for the information and the picture of Grottoís pizza sauce and the information about the cheese.  :)  I checked last evening and the nearest Grottoís to my area is about 1 Ĺ hrs. away.  When I get a chance, I will call ahead and see if the nearest Grottoís does sell the cheese.  I would be going to a Grottoís in northern Delaware. Would you mind telling me at what Grottoís location that picture was taken.

I appreciate all your help on this thread as ERASMO also has posted.  We have been on this journey to find the right kind of cheese for awhile. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on January 06, 2011, 10:19:55 AM
I inquired with Grottos about purchasing some of there cheese and sauce and they told me you mix the cheese they sell with mozzarella.

Interesting??!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on January 06, 2011, 10:33:26 AM
I inquired with Grottos about purchasing some of there cheese and sauce and they told me you mix the cheese they sell with mozzarella.

Interesting??!!

ERASMO,

I had read on the web before that Grotto's did mix mozzarella for their pizzas with some kind of cheddar.  Although I never remember eating a pizza from Grotto's, I would tend to think that the mixes are different at Mack's.  I think the main ingredient for the cheese might be the Grotto's cheese.  I think, but don't know if maybe Mack's might be adding other cheddars.  If you get to purchase some of Grotto's cheese you surely show know if the taste is right when mixed with mozzarella or other cheddars, since you have eaten at Mack's many times. 

Good luck!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: benfranklin on January 06, 2011, 12:37:29 PM
Erasmo,
There are two Grottos in Newark. I believe I saw the cheese and sauce at the College Square store. I purchased both several times at the Bear location. Be sure to try a jar of the sauce while your there. And the Bear location is where I found the talkative manager. Young guy, medium height, slender, light hair, and glasses. You might want to try and "sweathog" him while you're there!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on March 28, 2011, 04:43:15 PM
chickenparm,

If you listen to the second video I posted  in Reply 213 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97856.html#msg97856 you can hear the lady sitting next to me ask about what kind of cheese Mackís uses on their pies.  He says they do use some cheddar.  I donít think Mackís would give out the information for what kind of cheddar they use.  That is what makes their pizzas so unique in my opinion.

Norma

Hi Norma! I have read every post in this thread, up to this page (page 26 I'm on), I think there are maybe 3 more pages until the end.

I stayed with this thread, not because I have ever been to the Boardwalk or Mack's or M&M's but because my family is from Luzerne & Lackawanna counties, over 100-150 miles north of you in PA. I currently live in Buffalo, NY, where wings are famous and pizzas are still round, but long for the times spent in NEPA and rectangular pizzas, which are the norm there. Many have tried duplicating or reverse-engineering Old Forge PA pizza, the rectangular pizza, sold by the cut (slice) or the tray (NEVER called pie.)

Perhaps the stumbling block to the Old Forge pizza as well as the M/M&M pizza may be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese

It has been commonly used all along the east or upper east coast for the last 50+ years but you never hear a word about it... wonder why?

 ;)"Origins

Brick Origins: Brick cheese was originally produced in Wisconsin. The cheese making process was derived from white American Cheddar that is cultured at a slightly higher temperature which results in a marginally higher fat content and a slightly altered protein structure. The resultant "brick cheese" has a slightly softer taste and a distinctly sharper finish.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2011, 05:52:01 PM
Hi Norma! I have read every post in this thread, up to this page (page 26 I'm on), I think there are maybe 3 more pages until the end.

I stayed with this thread, not because I have ever been to the Boardwalk or Mack's or M&M's but because my family is from Luzerne & Lackawanna counties, over 100-150 miles north of you in PA. I currently live in Buffalo, NY, where wings are famous and pizzas are still round, but long for the times spent in NEPA and rectangular pizzas, which are the norm there. Many have tried duplicating or reverse-engineering Old Forge PA pizza, the rectangular pizza, sold by the cut (slice) or the tray (NEVER called pie.)

Perhaps the stumbling block to the Old Forge pizza as well as the M/M&M pizza may be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brick_cheese

It has been commonly used all along the east or upper east coast for the last 50+ years but you never hear a word about it... wonder why?

 ;)"Origins

Brick Origins: Brick cheese was originally produced in Wisconsin. The cheese making process was derived from white American Cheddar that is cultured at a slightly higher temperature which results in a marginally higher fat content and a slightly altered protein structure. The resultant "brick cheese" has a slightly softer taste and a distinctly sharper finish.



matermark,

You sure have been reading for awhile to read this whole thread.  :-D

I donít know if you saw this thread and others about Old Forge Pizza, but in this thread there are many mentions about different kinds of cheeses used for the Old Forge Pizza and one of them is brick cheese, plus many others. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1082.0.html I donít think anyone ever found the kind of cheese Old Forge Pizza uses, but it might be the same kind as Mackís or M&M uses. I donít know why no one ever talks about brick cheese on the forum.  I would be interested to hear if someone has used brick cheese what it tastes like.  I donít know if I can find brick cheese but if I do, I might give it a try in another attempt for a Mackís pizza.  Mackís cheese has a tang to it, but in a good way.

I was going to wait until I found out if I am going to Wildwood again this year, before deciding if I was going to make another attempt at the Mackís pie.  I also thought maybe I would get to Grottoís to buy some of their cheese, but I havenít been able to get there yet.

I will see what I can come up with.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on March 28, 2011, 08:42:37 PM

matermark,

You sure have been reading for awhile to read this whole thread.  :-D

I donít know if you saw this thread and others about Old Forge Pizza, but in this thread there are many mentions about different kinds of cheeses used for the Old Forge Pizza and one of them is brick cheese, plus many others. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1082.0.html I donít think anyone ever found the kind of cheese Old Forge Pizza uses, but it might be the same kind as Mackís or M&M uses. I donít know why no one ever talks about brick cheese on the forum.  I would be interested to hear if someone has used brick cheese what it tastes like.  I donít know if I can find brick cheese but if I do, I might give it a try in another attempt for a Mackís pizza.  Mackís cheese has a tang to it, but in a good way.

I was going to wait until I found out if I am going to Wildwood again this year, before deciding if I was going to make another attempt at the Mackís pie.  I also thought maybe I would get to Grottoís to buy some of their cheese, but I havenít been able to get there yet.

I will see what I can come up with.

Thanks for your help!  :)

Norma
I have now come full circle and finally caught up, so to speak!

YES, I really have been reading this thread for a very long time--I have ruptured disks in my back and with the meds I am on, I am either not able to get to sleep or I am falling asleep with the mouse in my hand! Actually, I have a laptop and an LCD monitor on a drop-down leaf of a tall bookcase close to the side of the bed--I don't even have to leave bed to read this thread!

I have gone back to visit relatives for Christmas thru New Year's and brought my dough with me to make my Duryea cousins some Old Forge pizza!  ;D Actually, that recipe was from a 1990's bread machine cookbook, and they loved it! But while I was out there, I bought about a 4 inch chunk of "BRICK CHEESE" and purposely told the deli guy to give it from a new log and include the original label! I can see by the price why so many pizza places in that money depressed area folded or changed their cheese! It may have just been the supermarket I bought it from but I believe it was $6-$7/lb at the deli dept.

I have long since used it up but did save the brand label as well as the cost label for proof and when I find my battery charger for my Canon Powershot, I will post a pic.

I really cannot describe the taste very well, mostly because I smoked for about 30 years and quit 2 years ago but don't know if I'll regain my tastebuds! BUT I was mixing it with mozzarella trying to find the missing link to the Old Forge pizza, so I used it all up before I found this thread which entertained me many of the 24hrs/day!

If you go to the wikik page I posted, further near the bottom is a link to another brick cheese story, it takes you here:

http://www.widmerscheese.com/pages/The-Story-of-Wisconsin-Brick-Cheese.html

Theirs seems to be even more authentic than the brand I bought, and you can buy it from them both by the pound as well as in gift sets. Their prices start around $6 plus shipping. I think it is important to read both the story of WI Brick Cheese page, as well as some of the links near the bottom. The brick cheese that I had did not acquire any holes yet so it must have been quite yound. See the description how the young cheese is mild and the aged cheese is tangy or sharper, if that's the right word to use.

They also do white cheddar too. They are the ONLY Master cheesemaker (Cheese Master?) that do Brick cheese the original way, and they are 1 of only 8 remaining Masters left in WI if I read that correctly.

I have never been to Mack's nor M&M's so I don't think I would be any help trying to make the "reverse engineered version! But if I see you feel you are 100% happy at a time down the road you feel you reached a clone, I may try it then! Good luck and I will stay on this thread.

Mark

P.S. I called a local place here and Sir Lancelot was $21.xx per 50lb bag. Just waiting for some back relief before moving up to 50lb'ers. :o

P.S.S. I think that link you posted to Old Forge pizza is how I found this site! I just made an OF pizza late Saturday night but with pepperoni. I would be exiled to another county if old Ma Ghigherelli were still alive and read this!  :-[
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 28, 2011, 10:07:33 PM
I have now come full circle and finally caught up, so to speak!

YES, I really have been reading this thread for a very long time--I have ruptured disks in my back and with the meds I am on, I am either not able to get to sleep or I am falling asleep with the mouse in my hand! Actually, I have a laptop and an LCD monitor on a drop-down leaf of a tall bookcase close to the side of the bed--I don't even have to leave bed to read this thread!

I have gone back to visit relatives for Christmas thru New Year's and brought my dough with me to make my Duryea cousins some Old Forge pizza!  ;D Actually, that recipe was from a 1990's bread machine cookbook, and they loved it! But while I was out there, I bought about a 4 inch chunk of "BRICK CHEESE" and purposely told the deli guy to give it from a new log and include the original label! I can see by the price why so many pizza places in that money depressed area folded or changed their cheese! It may have just been the supermarket I bought it from but I believe it was $6-$7/lb at the deli dept.

I have long since used it up but did save the brand label as well as the cost label for proof and when I find my battery charger for my Canon Powershot, I will post a pic.

I really cannot describe the taste very well, mostly because I smoked for about 30 years and quit 2 years ago but don't know if I'll regain my tastebuds! BUT I was mixing it with mozzarella trying to find the missing link to the Old Forge pizza, so I used it all up before I found this thread which entertained me many of the 24hrs/day!

If you go to the wikik page I posted, further near the bottom is a link to another brick cheese story, it takes you here:

http://www.widmerscheese.com/pages/The-Story-of-Wisconsin-Brick-Cheese.html

Theirs seems to be even more authentic than the brand I bought, and you can buy it from them both by the pound as well as in gift sets. Their prices start around $6 plus shipping. I think it is important to read both the story of WI Brick Cheese page, as well as some of the links near the bottom. The brick cheese that I had did not acquire any holes yet so it must have been quite yound. See the description how the young cheese is mild and the aged cheese is tangy or sharper, if that's the right word to use.

They also do white cheddar too. They are the ONLY Master cheesemaker (Cheese Master?) that do Brick cheese the original way, and they are 1 of only 8 remaining Masters left in WI if I read that correctly.

I have never been to Mack's nor M&M's so I don't think I would be any help trying to make the "reverse engineered version! But if I see you feel you are 100% happy at a time down the road you feel you reached a clone, I may try it then! Good luck and I will stay on this thread.

Mark

P.S. I called a local place here and Sir Lancelot was $21.xx per 50lb bag. Just waiting for some back relief before moving up to 50lb'ers. :o

P.S.S. I think that link you posted to Old Forge pizza is how I found this site! I just made an OF pizza late Saturday night but with pepperoni. I would be exiled to another county if old Ma Ghigherelli were still alive and read this!  :-[

Mark,

Thanks so much for reading this whole thread and helping with the cheese.  :) Sorry to hear you have ruptured disks in your back. 

I never tried Old Forge pizza and might have to also try that someday.  Glad to hear you could make your relatives some Old Forge pizza with the ďBrick CheeseĒ you purchased.  I would be interested in seeing the label when you are able to post a picture.  I have a cheese store near me that sells many kinds of chesses from all around the world.  I will try to call them this week and see if they carry the Widmerís brick cheese.  I never even hear of brick cheese before.  Thanks for the link to the ďbrick cheeseĒ story about Widmerís.  It was interesting.

Hopefully someday I or other members will get this Mackís clone okay.  I should know what a Mackís pizza should taste like, just from the cheese alone. 

All flours are going sky high.  I just called my distributor today and I canít believe how much cheese and flour are going up in price. I even get from a distributor, but my prices are still high.

Does your Old Forge pizza taste like the real thing?  Lol about you being exiled to another country if old  Ma Ghigherell was alive and read your post.  :-D  How do you think I feel if Mackís reads all what went on in this thread.  :o

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on March 28, 2011, 11:14:51 PM
Mark,

Thanks so much for reading this whole thread and helping with the cheese.  :) Sorry to hear you have ruptured disks in your back. 

I never tried Old Forge pizza and might have to also try that someday.  Glad to hear you could make your relatives some Old Forge pizza with the ďBrick CheeseĒ you purchased.  I would be interested in seeing the label when you are able to post a picture.  I have a cheese store near me that sells many kinds of chesses from all around the world.  I will try to call them this week and see if they carry the Widmerís brick cheese.  I never even hear of brick cheese before.  Thanks for the link to the ďbrick cheeseĒ story about Widmerís.  It was interesting.

Hopefully someday I or other members will get this Mackís clone okay.  I should know what a Mackís pizza should taste like, just from the cheese alone. 

All flours are going sky high.  I just called my distributor today and I canít believe how much cheese and flour are going up in price. I even get from a distributor, but my prices are still high.

Does your Old Forge pizza taste like the real thing?  Lol about you being exiled to another country if old  Ma Ghigherell was alive and read your post.  :-D  How do you think I feel if Mackís reads all what went on in this thread.  :o

Hope you are feeling better soon!

Norma
Are you kidding me, share the Brick cheese with my relatives in PA at almost $7/lb???? I brought the cheese back here to Buffalo to play with! I baked them in PA the 100% mozzarella version of Old Forge pizza instead. That may have been the day after Christmas. Then for New Year's I bought 3 trays of "Sizzle-Pi" pizza from about 20 minutes south of them, in Kingston PA. (And left 1 tray of the 3 in the truck to bring home with me ;) )

Sizzle-Pi is something like an Old Forge or Victory Pig pizza---Victory Pig seems more fried like a "pan pizza" but top half still a lot Old Forge.   

My version of the Old Forge pizza is really close! The best version so far was with Cento "Chef's Cut" tomatoes, which are strips & pieces of peeled tomatoes. I need to try it with the aged Brick cheese yet.

This is all funny because the next town north of my family's home in PA is Old Forge, the "Pizza Capital of the World!"

AND the next town south of my family's home in PA is Pittston, the "Tomato Capital of the World!"

I'm hoping to laugh again without it hurting--I had 2 lower back epidurals done in the last month--one today! Thanks Norma for your concerns.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2011, 06:19:10 AM
Are you kidding me, share the Brick cheese with my relatives in PA at almost $7/lb???? I brought the cheese back here to Buffalo to play with! I baked them in PA the 100% mozzarella version of Old Forge pizza instead. That may have been the day after Christmas. Then for New Year's I bought 3 trays of "Sizzle-Pi" pizza from about 20 minutes south of them, in Kingston PA. (And left 1 tray of the 3 in the truck to bring home with me ;) )

Sizzle-Pi is something like an Old Forge or Victory Pig pizza---Victory Pig seems more fried like a "pan pizza" but top half still a lot Old Forge.   

My version of the Old Forge pizza is really close! The best version so far was with Cento "Chef's Cut" tomatoes, which are strips & pieces of peeled tomatoes. I need to try it with the aged Brick cheese yet.

This is all funny because the next town north of my family's home in PA is Old Forge, the "Pizza Capital of the World!"

AND the next town south of my family's home in PA is Pittston, the "Tomato Capital of the World!"

I'm hoping to laugh again without it hurting--I had 2 lower back epidurals done in the last month--one today! Thanks Norma for your concerns.

Mark,

Sorry I got that wrong about you using the Brick cheese to make the pizza for your relatives.  It is interesting that you talk about ďSizzle-PiĒ.  I wonder if that or Old Forge is anything like Buddyís, Detroit Style or Jetís pizza.  In the other post I referenced about Old Forge pizza, the other members that posted said the cheese wasnít really oily.  Do you remember if the Brick cheese is really oily, after the bake, when you used it?  Since we are not sure what kind of cheese Mackís uses, it does really oil off, after the bake.  I would really like to find out the real brand of cheese that Mackís uses.  It probably is a common brand that can be bought at distributors, but there are so many kinds of cheeses to look at.  It is interesting hearing you talk about the different kinds of pies you remember so fondly.

If I get to Wildwood this coming summer to try Mackís pizza, I might need to take Peterís advise, like he posted at Reply 188 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97589.html#msg97589 and where I posted my Reply at 196 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97621.html#msg97621 because I posted enough on this thread already about finding that elusive cheese.  8)

If I have time when I am at market today, I will ask some of the people that sell cheese if they ever hear of Brick cheese or sell it.  Usually they will give a sample.

Take care of your back and enjoy pizza!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on March 29, 2011, 10:54:16 AM
guys, don't forget that I got inside information from a good friend that used to work at mac and mencos.    He said that the cheese was white cheddar from wisconsin.   He would have told me if it was a blend.   He said that the cheese actually had a stamp in the shape of the state of wisconsin on the box (and thought maybe even in the blocks of cheese).    THat should help to narrow it down.   
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on March 29, 2011, 11:22:29 AM
To scott r's point, it might be recalled that I called Mack's and the gal who answered the phone told me that they were using white cheddar cheese, as I reported in Reply 126 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97176/topicseen.html#msg97176.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on March 29, 2011, 12:00:12 PM
Sorry, I'm not trying to steer this off course, if you are confident either the girl on the phone knows her cheeses or isn't intentionally trying to deceive, or scott r's friend would like to spill the beans, c'mon, this thread was started by someone else going on nearly 2 years ago!

I only mentioned brick cheese because it's been used in the northeast for many years and I never knew or heard of it and maybe it's being confused with white cheddar or purposely disguised as white cheddar! I'm not a Cheese Master--maybe they are 1 step away from 1 becoming the other... I don't know. Maybe they are in the same general "family" of cheeses.

This should be a cold case already. It should take much more than a blonde wig and sunglasses... part time dumpster divers only going ankle deep or elbow deep (your effort is still appreciated), ... it's time for someone to play dumber than they are taking you/us for and finally ask nicely what the name of the cheese is to an employee ... like with a $20 bill.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on March 29, 2011, 09:47:16 PM
scott r,

I remember you saying the cheese was white cheddar from Wisconsin.  I didnít know the cheese box  had the state of Wisconsin stamped on it and maybe even in the blocks of cheese.  You are right that might help to narrow the cheese down.

Peter,

I remember you talking to the gal that answered the phone and her telling you the cheese was white cheddar. 

Mark,

I appreciate your help!  I donít know how I will find out the real kind of white cheddar cheese Mackís is using, but I will continue to look.  Some of these threads on this forum have gone on for longer than this thread.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on March 30, 2011, 06:27:16 AM
Norma, I understand it may be hard to duplicate an exact recipe, but it shouldn't be this hard just to find out the ingredients!  :pizza:


Can someone tell me why I can't see what I'm typing and the input box is jumpy & jittery once you go off the bottom? I especially had this problem when doing a quoting reply.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on April 03, 2011, 11:03:23 AM
Wow, took me 2 days to read this whole thread, some of it on my smartphone while watching tv.  My Aunt used to live in Wildwood Crest and my uncles ran a restaurant (The Hitching Post) in Wildwood, but, I don't remember Mack and Manco's or Macks growing up (in the 60's and very early 70's.)  I've tried a cheddar pizza and we really liked it, I was wondering if you could post a recipe of where you are at right now in the developement of this project.  I've noted several dough recipes and see where mild cheddar or a colby seem to be the cheese of choice.  As for the sauce, if one can't get Gangi for a base, what would be next best?  I know that you're trying to clone the Mack and Manco's pizza, but, If one wanted to get into the ballpark with ingredients available nationwide ( I live in the Deep South now) what would you recommend at this point? I can get Kraft Mild Cheddar at commodity pricing, it's yellow, but anato coloring doesn't affect the flavor so...

I've already tried using my Lehman style dough with a mixture of mozzarella and Kraft sharp cheddar with my usual 6 in 1 sauce and the pizza was stellar, my wife really loved it.  Since she was so pleased I though I would pursue this style more seriously.  

Impressive work, Norma, Peter, et. al.

Ron

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 12:59:33 PM
Wow, took me 2 days to read this whole thread, some of it on my smartphone while watching tv.  My Aunt used to live in Wildwood Crest and my uncles ran a restaurant (The Hitching Post) in Wildwood, but, I don't remember Mack and Manco's or Macks growing up (in the 60's and very early 70's.)  I've tried a cheddar pizza and we really liked it, I was wondering if you could post a recipe of where you are at right now in the developement of this project.  I've noted several dough recipes and see where mild cheddar or a colby seem to be the cheese of choice.  As for the sauce, if one can't get Gangi for a base, what would be next best?  I know that you're trying to clone the Mack and Manco's pizza, but, If one wanted to get into the ballpark with ingredients available nationwide ( I live in the Deep South now) what would you recommend at this point? I can get Kraft Mild Cheddar at commodity pricing, it's yellow, but anato coloring doesn't affect the flavor so...

I've already tried using my Lehman style dough with a mixture of mozzarella and Kraft sharp cheddar with my usual 6 in 1 sauce and the pizza was stellar, my wife really loved it.  Since she was so pleased I though I would pursue this style more seriously.  

Impressive work, Norma, Peter, et. al.

Ron



Ron,

I can believe it took you two days to read all the posts in this thread.  :-D  Thanks for hanging in!  Right now I think, but donít know, that maybe a combination of mild cheddar and sharp cheddar might be a good combination to try or maybe a colby with some sharp cheddar.  If you can't get Gangi for the base, I would think Walmartís tomato paste would be a decent selection, with the addition of some ground black pepper and oregano.  You would need to thin the sauce with water though.  The Gangi sauce does have a tart or different flavor, but when the pizza is baked it changes.  I donít really think yellow cheddar will matter in the taste.  I hope you continue on this journey with the rest of the members on this thread.  When I have time to visit Mackís again or try a new cheese or maybe change the formula for the dough I will post.  I wonít forget about this thread.  I would like members to be able to make a decent clone of Mackís or Mack and Mancoís pizza.

I think Peter reported his best results at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 and I think I reported my best results at Reply 399 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on April 03, 2011, 05:50:10 PM
Thank you Norma,

My Mom and Step-Dad are coming down to south Alabama on Tuesday and I'm going to make Pizza the day they arrive, since I can have everything ready and just make and bake when we get home from the airport.  I'm sure that Joe, my step-dad will be familiar with Mack and Manco's or Macks and I'll get his opinion and send a pic of the pie.  I'll probably try using Kraft medium cheddar but I'll make the sauce with Wal-Mart tomato paste as you recommend.  I'll use your dough and prepare it tonight.  Thanks for all your work in nailing this down, I'm out to impress some yankee natives.

Ron
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 03, 2011, 07:43:52 PM

My Mom and Step-Dad are coming down to south Alabama on Tuesday and I'm going to make Pizza the day they arrive, since I can have everything ready and just make and bake when we get home from the airport.  I'm sure that Joe, my step-dad will be familiar with Mack and Manco's or Macks and I'll get his opinion and send a pic of the pie.  I'll probably try using Kraft medium cheddar but I'll make the sauce with Wal-Mart tomato paste as you recommend.  I'll use your dough and prepare it tonight.  Thanks for all your work in nailing this down, I'm out to impress some yankee natives.

Ron

Ron,

I hope you can impress your Mom and Step-Dad with your Mackís pie.  ;D If Joe lived in Wildwood, I am almost positive he has tried Mackís pizza.  Will be interesting to hear what he thinks of your pie.

Best of luck and post pics if you can.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 05, 2011, 12:57:07 PM
Just a note to say that I split off most of the recent posts on the Mack's cheese so that the subject can be more fully addressed there rather than prolong this thread. The moved posts are now under the Pizza Cheese board. If we ever learn who the source of the cheese is, I might move the new thread to the Resources board. In due course, I may even delete this post.

Peter
(Moderator)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on April 06, 2011, 10:09:04 AM
Norma,

Thank you so much for your work on this pizza, you made me look good.  I made the boardwalk pizza as per your crust in the post above and gave it a 2 day refrigerator rise.  The dough was great, handled really well and cooked to perfection.  The sauce was Hunts paste with some water, oregano and pepper.  I was apprehensive but it was great.  I used the squeeze bottle technique to great effect.  I used Kraft medium yellow cheddar 5 ounces and 3 ounces of Cacique Mozzarella blend.  The Pizza was (key here is the word "was" 14 inches)

I baked at 500 def F. for 4 minutes on an aluminized steel plate in a commercial convection oven.  The cheese oiled out at an alarming rate, but, once it sat for 2 minutes and cooled a little, it reabsorbed some and was just a little oily on top, nicely greasy actually.

The rim, as pictured, was amazingly flat, and, looking at the photos of a real Macks pie, authentic.  This pizza was awesome!  I made it first out of 3 pies, the other two my normal dough and cheese.  By the time I had all the pies cooked, only half of the boardwalk was left.  My Mom and Step-Dad were awed by the Macks clone.  They are from Doylestown, PA. and are long time devotees of both Wildwood and Wildwood Crest and are familiar with the local pizza.  I don't think it was exactly like a Macks, but it definitely reminded them of the awesome flavor of a Macks.  The pizza was the most loved of the three I made, I was truly surprised at how fast it went and the complements they were throwing about.

Now to the pics...
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 10:36:58 AM
Norma,

Thank you so much for your work on this pizza, you made me look good.  I made the boardwalk pizza as per your crust in the post above and gave it a 2 day refrigerator rise.  The dough was great, handled really well and cooked to perfection.  The sauce was Hunts paste with some water, oregano and pepper.  I was apprehensive but it was great.  I used the squeeze bottle technique to great effect.  I used Kraft medium yellow cheddar 5 ounces and 3 ounces of Cacique Mozzarella blend.  The Pizza was (key here is the word "was" 14 inches)

I baked at 500 def F. for 4 minutes on an aluminized steel plate in a commercial convection oven.  The cheese oiled out at an alarming rate, but, once it sat for 2 minutes and cooled a little, it reabsorbed some and was just a little oily on top, nicely greasy actually.

The rim, as pictured, was amazingly flat, and, looking at the photos of a real Macks pie, authentic.  This pizza was awesome!  I made it first out of 3 pies, the other two my normal dough and cheese.  By the time I had all the pies cooked, only half of the boardwalk was left.  My Mom and Step-Dad were awed by the Macks clone.  They are from Doylestown, PA. and are long time devotees of both Wildwood and Wildwood Crest and are familiar with the local pizza.  I don't think it was exactly like a Macks, but it definitely reminded them of the awesome flavor of a Macks.  The pizza was the most loved of the three I made, I was truly surprised at how fast it went and the complements they were throwing about.

Now to the pics...

Ron,

I am glad your Mom and Step-Dad were awed by your Mackís clone.  ;D It does look delicious!  The combination of cheeses you used were very good and Mackís real pizza also oils off too!  You did a great job in capturing the Mackís crust.  I think, like you any tomato paste can be used, with added spices.  When I tasted the Gangi sauce, right out of the can, I though how could that make a good pizza sauce, because it tasted like tomato paste, but when it baked, just like your sauce, it tasted different.  The Gangi sauce has added basil, but I couldnít taste the basil.  

Great job!  Thanking for posting your pictures and what you did to make your Mackís pie.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pizzamaster on April 06, 2011, 06:27:00 PM
I haven't been to the shore for 20 years. But I remember Mack's. Didn't eat there. I remember we went to a place a little farther down. For the life of me can't remember the name. But I do remember the main pizza guy was named Nino. It would be nice if anyone knows where I am talking about.

On the Subject of Mack's is the crust foldable or is it crispy?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 06:46:46 PM

On the Subject of Mack's is the crust foldable or is it crispy?

Pizzamaster,

Mack's slices can be folded.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 06, 2011, 07:27:24 PM
Pizzamaster

Was it Sams Pizza?
http://samspizzawildwood.com/
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pizzamaster on April 06, 2011, 07:41:37 PM
Boy that seems familiar. But I don't recognize that building. They were in the the strip down past midway.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 06, 2011, 09:46:35 PM
ERASMO and Pizzamaster,

I donít remember any other pizza years ago, other than Macks.  Could it be "Franchi's"?

http://www.doowopusa.org/cgi-bin/yabb2/YaBB.pl?num=1283532264/4  The Wildwood Doo Whop  Preservation League has a forum on places and pizza businesses in Wildwood years ago.

A search can be done on the Wildwood Doo Whop Preservation League by selecting Mackís pizza or any other pizza business and I think the search can go back to any posts by selecting ďThis post was made in the last...Ē then select, all postsĒ if anyone is interested to see what is posted on Mackís or other pizza businesses, by looking under the message board for search, then pushing the search button.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 07, 2011, 07:17:38 AM
Boy that seems familiar. But I don't recognize that building. They were in the the strip down past midway.

I think that is a new building. If I remember correctly they burnt down once.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on April 07, 2011, 11:51:25 AM
Although both families came from Trenton, NJ (ala DeLorenzo's Tomato Pies), Mack's and Sam's are different animals.  Sam's uses a blend of Red Pack and 6-in-1 tomatoes and tops it with Grande mozzarella.  They do not use cheddar.  Sam's is preferred by most locals, while Mack's is the "shoobie" (tourist) choice.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2011, 02:21:37 PM
I decided to make another attempt at a Mackís pizza, so I made another dough ball this morning and used the formula at the end of this post.  I will be making the pizza Tuesday.  This will be my first attempt at an 18" pizza on this thread.

I decided to change the formula after Peterís response at Reply 493 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760 and after I wasnít quite satisfied with how the crust was coming out after the bake.  I have been thinking about making another dough for awhile, but I didnít get around to it until today.  I used ADM flour in the formula.

Pinocchio and  Jiminy Cricket are waiting patiently, to see if this attempt will be more like a real Mackís pizza.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HKh6XxYbbIc&feature=fvwrel

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on April 10, 2011, 03:54:17 PM
Mom and Step-Dad wanted pizza again and specifically requested "That Boardwalk Pizza".  So...I made 2 more 14 inchers for when we returned from seeing our boy at Auburn U.  There was only one slice left, and that was out of courtesy.  They really love Norma's crust from... http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

I'm interested to see how your revised formula works, Norma, the posting above is really a good crust. I was even able to spin it in the air second time around when I made it...everybody was impressed. 

Ron
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 10, 2011, 04:36:55 PM
Mom and Step-Dad wanted pizza again and specifically requested "That Boardwalk Pizza".  So...I made 2 more 14 inchers for when we returned from seeing our boy at Auburn U.  There was only one slice left, and that was out of courtesy.  They really love Norma's crust from... http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522

I'm interested to see how your revised formula works, Norma, the posting above is really a good crust. I was even able to spin it in the air second time around when I made it...everybody was impressed.  

Ron

Ron,

I am glad you liked the formula I used and were able to spin it in the air your second time around. I can imagine how your Mom and Step-Dad were impressed with your being able to spin the skin.  :)
  
I am only trying another formula because I am not satisfied how my crust tasted compared to Mackís.  I know we probably never will get it exactly right. At least with each formula that is tried in any style of pizza, there is something to be learned.  

Thanks for posting about your pies!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 11, 2011, 06:10:36 PM
Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket insisted on going along to market today.  Usually they donít want to help me with any work, but they are anxious to see how the next attempt at a Mackís pizza will be.  The dough ball today looks something like a Mackís dough, but I have no idea how the dough ball will handle when opening the dough ball into a skin ,and then baking it into the pizza.  Hopefully it will be able to spin in the air.  I am trying out 5 kinds of cheese on the attempt tomorrow.  The cheeses are two kinds of white sharp cheedar, Fontina, and two kinds of mozarella, with the white cheddars being the predominate cheese. 

At least I remembered to take my bigger peel along to market today.

Pictures of the dough ball today and Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket helping at market.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 11:02:31 PM
I was happy today, that this attempt for Mackís pizza was the best I have done so far.  ;D The crust reminded me more of Mackís crust and even the whole pizza, more than any I have tried so far in this thread. The taste of the crust was really good and even had the same texture as a Mackís crust, at least in my opinion.  The dough performed well, and could be tossed many times. Steve took two videos of me tossing the dough, and after I look at them, if they are okay, I will upload them on Youtube.  The dough ball looked just like a dough ball sitting at Mackís.  I let the dough ball warm-up for two hours and as can be seen on the top and bottom of the dough ball, it looks something like Mackís dough balls. Even the crust coloration was about the same as Mackís.  The crust was foldable and had the right crispness.

Even the blend of cheeses almost tasted like Mackís cheese, after being baked on the pizza. I had other people sample the Mackís attempt and they asked me if I am going to continue making this kind of pizza. That is how much they liked it.  

Thanks Peter, for pointing me in the right directions to get the results I had today, on this Mackís attempt.  :chef: I donít know what kind of award I can give you, but I am grateful for getting the results I did today.  

Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket were jumping for joy when they saw this pizza.  :-D Steve really enjoyed this pizza too.  Steve had brought me two bottles of his home brewed pale ale to take home to try today, but after this pizza turned out so well, we broke open a bottle and celebrated.

Edit:  I forgot to add in my post last evening, I thought the bottom crust was almost browning too fast, so I put a screen under the pizza for about 45 seconds.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 11:05:05 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 11:07:46 PM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 12, 2011, 11:12:01 PM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 12:37:43 AM
These are the two videos of me trying to throw the dough.  I sure canít throw dough, but this will give anyone that is interested,  how well this dough could be thrown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmHThrrEjYA

and

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o300i_cWtCA

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2011, 09:42:22 AM
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you got such good results with your latest Mack's clone. It certainly fits within the range of "looks" of Mack's pizzas that we have seen in various photos since August, 2009 when this thread started. Or at least I could have been fooled, especially looking at the photo of your pizza with the Mack's pizza box as a backdrop. I'm also glad to see that you finally were able to make an 18" Mack's clone. I would imagine that your tasters were impressed by that. I noticed also that you placed a screen under the baking Mack's clone. Was that just a precautionary measure or was the bottom of the crust browning too fast? Also, how long did you let the dough cold ferment before using? And did you end up using the five-cheese blend that you contemplated using for the latest pie? Finally, did you detect a flavor difference that could be attributed to using the canola oil this time rather than the olive oil?

With all the twists and turns and the large number of posts in this thread, it was hard to remember what led to the suggestions I proposed in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. I suspected that the suggestions were extensions of one of my previous Mack's clone formulations. That turned out to be the case. The suggestions were an extension of the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. It would certainly be nice to learn someday whether we have been on the right trail. You might recall, for example, that when we first started to work on this project in earnest, some of us were guessing that the Mack's dough was a high hydration dough.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 10:50:29 AM
Norma,

I'm glad to see that you got such good results with your latest Mack's clone. It certainly fits within the range of "looks" of Mack's pizzas that we have seen in various photos since August, 2009 when this thread started. Or at least I could have been fooled, especially looking at the photo of your pizza with the Mack's pizza box as a backdrop. I'm also glad to see that you finally were able to make an 18" Mack's clone. I would imagine that your tasters were impressed by that. I noticed also that you placed a screen under the baking Mack's clone. Was that just a precautionary measure or was the bottom of the crust browning too fast? Also, how long did you let the dough cold ferment before using? And did you end up using the five-cheese blend that you contemplated using for the latest pie? Finally, did you detect a flavor difference that could be attributed to using the canola oil this time rather than the olive oil?

With all the twists and turns and the large number of posts in this thread, it was hard to remember what led to the suggestions I proposed in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. I suspected that the suggestions were extensions of one of my previous Mack's clone formulations. That turned out to be the case. The suggestions were an extension of the dough formulation that I posted at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. It would certainly be nice to learn someday whether we have been on the right trail. You might recall, for example, that when we first started to work on this project in earnest, some of us were guessing that the Mack's dough was a high hydration dough.

Peter

Peter,

I was also glad I got good results with the current formula.  I know so many different pictures have been posted on the web of Mackís pizza and also different pictures I took. There can be a big range of different looks, but when eating a real Mackís pizza, the taste of the crust is always the same, at least to me.  I was also glad to finally make a 18" Mackís pizza.  It wasnít hard, since the skin was easy to open.  I donít think my taste testers noticed how big the pie was, because I made so many different test doughs in different sizes.  

I only placed a screen under the pie near the end of the bake, because I thought the bottom was browning before the top of the pizza looked finished.  I donít know if I would have needed the screen, but I didnít want the bottom crust to burn.  

The dough was made Sunday and left to cold ferment until yesterday afternoon.  I wanted to see if a dough ball could stay looking the same, after a two day cold ferment.  The formula seemed to work out okay for a 2 day cold ferment.  Every time I had visited Mackís pizza, I watched the dough balls sitting at all different room temperatures and they never look like they over ferment.  I always wondered why that was.  

Where I wanted to see why things werenít working out the way I wanted I posted at Reply 491 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112747.html#msg112747   I was stumped in that post of what to try next.  Then you responded in the next post, what I might try.  That is what eventually led me to try the formula I did.  If it wasnít for your post, I donít know what I would have tried next.  You always seem to know what to try.  Your post of what you tried at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 was almost like the formula I used.  I believe you put us on the right trail for the formula for a Mackís pizza.  I donít think we will ever know what formula Mackís uses to make their dough.  I remember we thought at first that the formula for Mackís dough might be a high hydration dough.  I donít really know what the Canola oil did to the formula and final pizza, but it seemed to work.  Did you ever try out Canola oil in formulas something like this, and if you did, did you notice any difference in the dough or final taste of the crust?

I did use the five-cheese blend, and it almost tasted when baked, like a real Mackís pizza cheese.

I saved one slice to reheat today or tomorrow.  I will see how the slice tastes reheated.  Since I did use ADM flour, I think the flour also helped the pizza.

Thanks again, for all your help on this project!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on April 13, 2011, 01:55:10 PM
Norma,

That is a nice looking pie.  However, i have a Mack and Manco's once a week in the winter, and a lot of Mack's in the summer.
Both sauces are much more watered down than your raw sauce.  It thickens up in the cooking process.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 13, 2011, 03:11:22 PM
Norma,

Sometimes when I am stumped, I just hit the "reset" button. Sometimes I go back to square one and read everything all over again to look for clues or other information that I may have missed. However, in this case, I did not think that that was necessary since I felt we were on the right trail. So, instead, I looked at all of your photos of Mack clone pizzas to see which ones best typified the Mack's style based on all of the photos and videos I had seen of the Mack's pizzas. This approach seemed logical since you knew and used some of the same ingredients as Mack's and you had a deck oven that could bake pizzas properly and in large sizes. Moreover, you had actually eaten Mack's pizzas several times and had a memory of how their pizzas tasted.

What would have helped me most at the time was to have a better understanding of the Mack's dough making and management "system". I knew that Mack's hours were from 11:00 AM to late at night, so I knew that their dough formulation and procedures had to fit that time window. I speculated that by using a modest amount of yeast and a relatively low hydration, the dough could be made at night and, with proper refrigeration, be usable all the next day without dramatic differences in crust flavor or other characteristics. Obviously, the pizzas made for the 11:00 AM crowd could be different than the ones made just before closing, which might help explain the many "looks" of the Mack's pizzas, but I believe the combination of a modest amount of yeast and relatively low hydration (0.30% IDY and 53% hydration in our case) would keep the fermentation in check and that the dough balls would look pretty much alike at the time of tempering just prior to use. Also, the dough balls could be opened without much fear of excessive extensibilty. It further occurred to me that because of their high volume Mack's could make their dough balls in stages, perhaps at night and early the next morning. However, I have not read or heard of anything to suggest that possibility. My only recollection is that the dough balls may be made in a nearby location and delivered to all of the Boardwalk locations. I suppose if someone cased the Mack's location for a day, starting very early in the morning, it might be possible to learn more about these aspects of the Mack's business. So, you may want to set aside your fake wig and glasses in advance of your next trip to the Boardwalk.

I should add that one advantage that Mack's has over what you do and what I and other home pizza makers do is the element of constancy. Mack's makes the same dough pretty much the same way day in and day out and in settings, including where and when the dough is made and managed and the actual Mack's location where the pizzas are sold, that are subject to some seasonal variations but otherwise quite manageable. With repetition, these factors become part of the DNA of the people who make and manage the dough.

With respect to the canola oil, I usually only use it when a recipe calls for it. Many people do not like canola oil because they think it has a fishy smell or taste. Most pizza operators tend to use soybean oil, mainly because it is the most economical oil for them to use.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 05:18:42 PM
Norma,

Sometimes when I am stumped, I just hit the "reset" button. Sometimes I go back to square one and read everything all over again to look for clues or other information that I may have missed. However, in this case, I did not think that that was necessary since I felt we were on the right trail. So, instead, I looked at all of your photos of Mack clone pizzas to see which ones best typified the Mack's style based on all of the photos and videos I had seen of the Mack's pizzas. This approach seemed logical since you knew and used some of the same ingredients as Mack's and you had a deck oven that could bake pizzas properly and in large sizes. Moreover, you had actually eaten Mack's pizzas several times and had a memory of how their pizzas tasted.

What would have helped me most at the time was to have a better understanding of the Mack's dough making and management "system". I knew that Mack's hours were from 11:00 AM to late at night, so I knew that their dough formulation and procedures had to fit that time window. I speculated that by using a modest amount of yeast and a relatively low hydration, the dough could be made at night and, with proper refrigeration, be usable all the next day without dramatic differences in crust flavor or other characteristics. Obviously, the pizzas made for the 11:00 AM crowd could be different than the ones made just before closing, which might help explain the many "looks" of the Mack's pizzas, but I believe the combination of a modest amount of yeast and relatively low hydration (0.30% IDY and 53% hydration in our case) would keep the fermentation in check and that the dough balls would look pretty much alike at the time of tempering just prior to use. Also, the dough balls could be opened without much fear of excessive extensibilty. It further occurred to me that because of their high volume Mack's could make their dough balls in stages, perhaps at night and early the next morning. However, I have not read or heard of anything to suggest that possibility. My only recollection is that the dough balls may be made in a nearby location and delivered to all of the Boardwalk locations. I suppose if someone cased the Mack's location for a day, starting very early in the morning, it might be possible to learn more about these aspects of the Mack's business. So, you may want to set aside your fake wig and glasses in advance of your next trip to the Boardwalk.

I should add that one advantage that Mack's has over what you do and what I and other home pizza makers do is the element of constancy. Mack's makes the same dough pretty much the same way day in and day out and in settings, including where and when the dough is made and managed and the actual Mack's location where the pizzas are sold, that are subject to some seasonal variations but otherwise quite manageable. With repetition, these factors become part of the DNA of the people who make and manage the dough.

With respect to the canola oil, I usually only use it when a recipe calls for it. Many people do not like canola oil because they think it has a fishy smell or taste. Most pizza operators tend to use soybean oil, mainly because it is the most economical oil for them to use.

Peter

Peter,

Since I never tried any of your formulas out for a Mackís clone, I didnít really know how your crust tasted or how the texture was.  I knew the formulas I had tried, just werenít right in the terms of taste and texture.  I would be interested in seeing if someone has eaten a Mackís pizza or has memories of a Mackís pizza and tries the formula I used, what they will think.  I know I have an advantage of having a deck oven to try. Sometime I might try the formula at home to see if I obtain the same results. I didnít notice any fishy smell or taste when the crust was tasted, but I might try soybean oil out in the formula I used next week to see if there is any difference in the dough or how the final pizza tastes.  I only tired canola oil because it was cheap at an ALDI food chain store near me.  

I believe Mackís might be making their doughs at either location in the basements, but I would think it would be at the location nearest the Wildwood Crest location.  I have seen their trash  and it is all bagged in black plastic trash bags (inside large trash cans), so I donít even think if I would stand in the public parking lot behind that Mackís location with my fake blond wig and sunglasses, if I have a chance to visit Mackís again, I still wouldnít know what is in those black trash bags.  Mackís other location in about the middle of the boardwalk, the trash cans can be seen easily by just walking by on the sidewalk leading up to the ramp to the boardwalk.  I didnít see any bags of flour there, but could see the Gangi cans by just walking on the sidewalk.  Mackís might be making the dough in stages.  Only an insider would know that information.  After this thread, Mackís might go to protect and serve.  I can understand that Mackís has  possibly made this same dough for many years and has figured out how to deal with all the different temperature chances and what to do about that.  

I also think the modest amount of yeast (30%) along with the (53%) hydration did work, so the dough wouldnít ferment too fast in two days. The salt amount (2.3%) seemed to make the crust also taste like a real Mack's pizza. I can understand the doughs made early would have a different look if the pizza was bought in the evening.  Maybe that is why the parbaked pizza (bought right after they opened) I bought was so nasty when I brought it home to rebake.  I still have a slice of that parbaked pizza in my freezer and look at it from time to time, to think about how badly that was done.  That parbaked slice, doesnít show any signs of fermentation or a rise in the crust from the parbake.  If anyone wants me to post a picture of that parbaked slice, I can take a picture of it. I wonder how a parbaked pizza would taste if bought in the evening and then rebaked.  It might be different.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Matthew on April 13, 2011, 06:16:35 PM
Norma,
Brilliant! 

Matt
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 13, 2011, 06:43:25 PM
Norma,
Brilliant! 

Matt

Matt,

Thanks for your kind words.  :) This thread has taken a long while to get the results other members and I were trying to achieve. If it wasn't for all the information and help of other members, I don't think we would have come this far. I am going to try the same formula next week (maybe with soybean oil), to see if I can get the same results.  I hope other members or guests can get the same results, if they want to try something like a Mack's pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2011, 12:10:59 PM
Norma,

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough in your home stand mixer? I know from past experience with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook that it has a tough time kneading a dough with modest hydration for an 18" pizza, even with the oil in the dough. I found that using a combination of food processor and mixer was a good solution to that problem.

It would be interesting to see how well your commercial mixer at market would work to mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough and whether it would be closer to what Mack's produces with its commercial mixer.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 02:22:49 PM
Norma,

I forgot to ask you earlier but did you mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough in your home stand mixer? I know from past experience with my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook that it has a tough time kneading a dough with modest hydration for an 18" pizza, even with the oil in the dough. I found that using a combination of food processor and mixer was a good solution to that problem.

It would be interesting to see how well your commercial mixer at market would work to mix and knead your latest Mack's clone dough and whether it would be closer to what Mack's produces with its commercial mixer.

Peter

Peter,

I did use my home Kitchen Aid mixer to mix the dough.  I put in all the ingredients in except the oil, and mixed for a little and then added the oil before all the ingredients were incorporated.  I did use a metal spoon to help the mixture come off the sides of the mixer bowl, and also used my fingers to help the mixture come together better, before letting the dough mix on speed 2 for 6 minutes. My Kitchen Aid didnít seem to have problems with the lower hydration dough, after all the ingredients were together. I never tried to make any doughs with my food processor and Kitchen Aid mixer in combination.  I wonder if that would help mix this dough better.  I will look on this thread were you posted about using your food processor.

I would like to try and make this dough and pizza at home, incase anyone is interested in trying the Mackís pizza.  At some point I am going to try my home oven too, to see if the formula works as well in my home oven, but I wonít be able to make a 18" pizza in my home oven, because I donít have a 18" screen.

In my Hobart mixer at market, I really need to make enough for 5 dough balls (at least for previous attempts at a Mackís clone), for the mixer to mix properly, but since this formula was for a 18" pizza, maybe I wouldnít need to make that many dough balls.  I wonder how much dough I would have to mix for my Hobart mixer to be able to mix the dough properly.  I might also try that sometime, if I can figure it out.  I notice how much faster my Hobart does incorporate any ingredients, than my Kitchen Aid, but they both operate about the same, except my C-hook isnít as close to the mixer bowl in my Kitchen Aid mixer.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 10:11:39 PM
I decided to reheat the slice I had saved from Tuesday on the Mackís attempt, this evening.  I also took the leftover two slices out of the freezer of the parbaked slices of the last time I visited Mackís, because I wanted to taste the cheese again.  I did taste the cheese on the parbaked slices before and after the reheat.  I heated up my oven for an hour and place all three slices on my pizza stone.  I watched how the parbaked slice baked with the cheese.  Of course the parbaked slices didnít change any since the last time I tried to do a rebaked on them.  They just sat there and did nothing, but the cheese did melt.  Another thing I wanted to look at and taste was how much oregano and pepper were on the parbaked slices of real Mackís pizza.  The reheated slice of the Mackís attempt reheated well and the taste was still like a Mackís pizza.  I tried to compare how both slices tasted with just the cheese and the only thing I could tell from that test, was the cheese on the parbaked slices tasted more buttery.  I also noticed there was more oregano than I originally thought.  I didnít eat any of the crust of the parbaked slices of the real Mackís pizza, because it looked really nasty.  I am not down at the boardwalk, but I still would throw those parbaked slices under there if I could.  :-D

Pictures of the slice of the Mackís attempt, and other pictures from the test if somehow the parbaked slices could change somehow. The first two pictures are of the slice before it was reheated.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 10:15:36 PM
rest of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2011, 10:38:15 PM
Norma,

Would you mind clarifying which photos are of your clone slice and which are of the par-baked slices? You did such a good job that I am having trouble telling which slices are which from your description of the photos.

I like the idea of your saving the par-baked Mack's slices to be able to do later taste tests. Do you consider your latest cheese blend to be a worthy substitute for the Mack's cheese, or is the hunt still on?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: parallei on April 14, 2011, 10:47:30 PM
Norma,

Those are sure some sweet looking slices.  Someday, I really hope to visit your pizza stand!  If I do, can I smuggle in a bottle of wine?

Paul
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 11:25:38 PM
Norma,

Would you mind clarifying which photos are of your clone slice and which are of the par-baked slices? You did such a good job that I am having trouble telling which slices are which from your description of the photos.

I like the idea of your saving the par-baked Mack's slices to be able to do later taste tests. Do you consider your latest cheese blend to be a worthy substitute for the Mack's cheese, or is the hunt still on?

Peter

Peter,

The first two pictures are of the slices from my attempt Tuesday.  The third picture is of the real Mackís parbaked slices not reheated.  The fourth picture is a slice of the parbaked slice on the left and my attempt on the right, not reheated.  The fifth picture is the bottom of both the parbaked slices and my slice attempt, with my attempt at the top, not reheated.  The sixth picture is the two slices of Mackís parbaked slices on the left and my attempt on the right on the pizza stone.  The seventh picture is of my attempt reheated.  The eighth picture is of the parbaked Mackís slice reheated.  The ninth picture is Mackís parbaked slice showing the cheese melted, with the fork lifting the cheese.  The tenth picture is of the crust picked apart from my attempt.  

I think the cheese blend I used in the attempt Tuesday did really taste like Mackís pizza cheese, but not exactly.  I still would like to find out what kind of cheese Mackís really uses, but I might not be able to buy it, even if I know the brand and kind of white cheddar they use.  I will settle for the blend any day.  Since part of the blend was Fontina, it did give a buttery flavor to the pizza when it was baked.  I donít know, but I would like more taste testers at market to try this kind of pizza I made.  Maybe it is just me, because I really do like Mackís pizza, but from the comments I had so far from the taste testers, they really did like the attempt on Tuesday.  I guess there needs to be more experimenting to see what happens.  

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 14, 2011, 11:33:02 PM
Norma,

Those are sure some sweet looking slices.  Someday, I really hope to visit your pizza stand!  If I do, can I smuggle in a bottle of wine?

Paul

Paul,

Thanks for your kind words.  I hope you get to visit my pizza stand someday too! Steve and I have a blast with the other standholders.  That is one nice thing about being at market, because you have other standholders to interact with all the time. You will have to let me know if you are coming, because I donít know if I would have this kind of pizza or not for you to try.  I would make a few batches of the formula for you to try a Mackís attempt to see if you also like this kind of pie.  You can smuggle a bottle of wine at market.  Steve and I had a couple of celebrations at market, but not too many.   :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 14, 2011, 11:46:38 PM
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying the photos. In a few cases, I guessed wrong before you clarified matters.

Out of curiosity, are your taste testers other standholders, or customers, or possibly some of each? And are the taste testers the same people that you use to critique your pizzas? And do they pay for the privilege?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 12:04:35 AM
Norma,

Thank you for clarifying the photos. In a few cases, I guessed wrong before you clarified matters.

Out of curiosity, are your taste testers other standholders, or customers, or possibly some of each? And are the taste testers the same people that you use to critique your pizzas? And do they pay for the privilege?

Peter

Peter,

Please donít tell me you guessed wrong in the pictures I posted of those pale crusts with nothing going on with them!  :-D  Hopefully at least my attempt at a Mackís pizza looked better than those slices that should have been thrown under the boardwalk.

The taste testers were both standholders and some of my regular customers, that do taste some of my test pizzas.  They all really liked this attempt at the Mackís pizza, better than most of my other attempts at other pies.  They were all people that critique my tests. The one man owns an Irish Pub and he said this was the best pizza.  I would like to try some of the Mackís attempts on other customers that donít normally taste my test pizzas.  It would be interesting to see what they think.. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 09:28:19 AM
Norma,

That is a nice looking pie.  However, i have a Mack and Manco's once a week in the winter, and a lot of Mack's in the summer.
Both sauces are much more watered down than your raw sauce.  It thickens up in the cooking process.

BOARDWALKER,

I am sorry I missed your post.  :-[ When I get an automatic email that someone has posted on something I also posted on, it then takes me to the most recent post.  My apology for not responding.  

Since you also really like Mackís and Mack and Mancoís pizzas and get to taste them more than I do, what do you think about the crust texture on my recent attempt, compared to the real Mackís and Mack and Mancoís crust?  How would you describe the crust on the real Mackís or Mack and Mancoís pizza and why do you think Mackís and Mack and Mancoís pies are so different than other regular pizzas.  What makes them unique in your opinion?

For the last attempt at the Mackís pizza I did, I used Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce and took the basil out and added oregano, black pepper, a touch of sugar and water.  The Saporito Super Heavy Pizza Sauce is something like the Gangi sauce, but sweeter.  At some point in time, I am going to try Walmartís brand of tomato paste for the sauce.  At least to me, I think the Wally Worlds tomato paste tastes a little more bitter, like the Gangi, since I already tasted the real Gangi sauce that Mackís uses.  I did add more sauce to the recent attempt that I made because I wanted to see how more sauce on the attempt would taste. I also added more cheese than I think Mack's uses. I have seen the sauce coming out of the hoses different times (also Mackís using some kind of stainless steel container to pour the sauce on) when I visited Mackís and from what I saw there can be different textures in the sauce.  I donít know if they measure how much water they put in the sauce or not. How would you describe the texture of the sauce coming out of the hoses?

Do you have any comments on how the attempt I did could be improved and how would you rate a Mackís or Mack and Mancoís pizza against other pizzas you have eaten in you lifetime.  I wanted to ask you one other question if you want to answer.  Did you ever see the trash cans at the Mackís pizza in the middle of the boardwalk, right before walking up the ramp?  From my last visit, their trash could be seen from just walking on the sidewalk nearest Mackís pizza, in plain view.  At the other location of Mackís their trash is kept in big trash containers from what I could see.

Thanks so much for your help on this thread.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2011, 09:51:24 AM
Norma,

As I looked at your latest photos, I wondered whether the two crusts--yours and the Mack's--were of the same thickness. As you may recall, we used a lot of your weight measurements (and some of my estimates based on the videos) to try to get the "look and feel" of the Mack's pizzas from a physical standpoint (i.e., crust thickness and pizza size, and amounts of cheese and sauce). Those measurements eventually were used to try to zero in on a good value of thickness factor to use. It's hard to be precise on thickness factor because of the difference in weights between an uncooked pizza and a baked one, which requires estimating the amount of weight loss during baking and adjusting the dough weight to compensate. Moreover, those differences will vary depending on the type of oven and bake protocol used. I mention all of this because it would be easy to change the thickness factor you have been using to another value, either higher or lower, based on your assessment of the two crust thicknesses. 

Peter

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 10:32:37 AM
Norma,

As I looked at your latest photos, I wondered whether the two crusts--yours and the Mack's--were of the same thickness. As you may recall, we used a lot of your weight measurements (and some of my estimates based on the videos) to try to get the "look and feel" of the Mack's pizzas from a physical standpoint (i.e., crust thickness and pizza size, and amounts of cheese and sauce). Those measurements eventually were used to try to zero in on a good value of thickness factor to use. It's hard to be precise on thickness factor because of the difference in weights between an uncooked pizza and a baked one, which requires estimating the amount of weight loss during baking and adjusting the dough weight to compensate. Moreover, those differences will vary depending on the type of oven and bake protocol used. I mention all of this because it would be easy to change the thickness factor you have been using to another value, either higher or lower, based on your assessment of the two crust thicknesses. 

Peter



Peter,

I remember when you made your attempt on a Mackís pizza and used the TF of .07272 at Reply 204  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97757.html#msg97757 That pizza crust TF did look in line with a Mackís real pizza crust. 

When I visited Mackís pizza and brought back the slices to where we were staying at Reply 211 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97850.html#msg97850  I mentioned in the above post, ďThese pictures are why I think the crust is thicker than I previously thought.Ē  From those pictures, the Mackís crust does look about the same or a little thinner, than the formula for my last attempt.  When I also posted at Reply 224 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97894.html#msg97894 with those pictures, those crust also looked a little thicker, but I canít be sure. 

Then you posted at Reply 239 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97956.html#msg97956 you had planned on using a TF of 0.0773963.

I donít know what TF to try for my next attempt.  From the pictures I provided in the above links, and what you posted about TF, what do you think I should try when I used the expanded dough calculation tool for my next attempt?

I donít know if any other members that can eat a Mackís pizza more than I can, could also weigh a real Mackís pizza to help this thread.  Maybe that would also help, until I can visit Mackís again.  I know it is hard to able to know exactly the weight of Mackís dough balls even from seeing all the pictures posted and also from my limited weighing of the pizza baked and unbaked with the cheese and sauce.  Also, what amount in weight of cheese and sauce do you recommend for my next attempt?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 15, 2011, 10:43:14 AM
Norma

I will weigh a macks pizza next time we get one.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 11:00:11 AM
Norma

I will weigh a macks pizza next time we get one.



ERASMO,

Thanks a lot for posting that you will weigh a Mack's pizza the next time you buy one.  ;D That will help this thread a lot. You have already helped this thread many times. I know you have bought Mack's pizza many times.  What I would like to ask you is, when you see them free throwing all that cheese and also not weighing the sauce that is put on their pizzas, don't you think there could be different weights when each pizza is weighed?  That is also stumping me on trying to know how much cheese or sauce to add.  When I watched them different times it seemed like different amounts of cheese and sauce were added to each pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2011, 11:23:44 AM
I donít know what TF to try for my next attempt.  From the pictures I provided in the above links, and what you posted about TF, what do you think I should try when I used the expanded dough calculation tool for my next attempt?

I donít know if any other members that can eat a Mackís pizza more than I can, could also weigh a real Mackís pizza to help this thread.  Maybe that would also help, until I can visit Mackís again.  I know it is hard to able to know exactly the weight of Mackís dough balls even from seeing all the pictures posted and also from my limited weighing of the pizza baked and unbaked with the cheese and sauce.  Also, what amount in weight of cheese and sauce do you recommend for my next attempt?

Norma,

I think I would rather see you try to repeat your last results, using the same values for everything, whether your next iteration is at home or at market. Obviously, a market version baked in your deck oven would be a better test because you wouldn't be introducing a new variable (your home oven) into the equation. Since ERASMO has offered to do a weighing fo the next Mack's pizza he buys, we may also get some newer/better numbers to work with.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2011, 11:34:27 AM
I will weigh a macks pizza next time we get one.

ERASMO,

Thank for offering. That should help although, as Norma has mentioned, "free throwing" things is prone to fairly wide swings in weights. Those variations might also affect bake times, which might affect weight losses. But I would rather have the information than not. That might at least get us into the "zone". The piece of information that would be most useful at this point, especially if coupled with the baked pizza weight that you get on your scale (I prefer grams if that is possible), would be the weight of a typical Mack's dough ball. However, I realize that that may be asking for too much. Also, pizza assemblers often don't have the foggiest idea as to what the dough balls weigh that they use to make pizzas day after day.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 11:59:44 AM
Norma,

I think I would rather see you try to repeat your last results, using the same values for everything, whether your next iteration is at home or at market. Obviously, a market version baked in your deck oven would be a better test because you wouldn't be introducing a new variable (your home oven) into the equation. Since ERASMO has offered to do a weighing fo the next Mack's pizza he buys, we may also get some newer/better numbers to work with.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for your thoughts about what I should try for my next iteration.  I am going to do the next attempt at market, so I can see if my results are consistent with my last results.  I will use the same formula with the same flour, and also the same TF, but might change the oil to soybean oil.  All depends if I have time to purchase some soybean oil.  I might add a little less of the cheese blend and sauce to get more in line with the looks of a real Mackís pizza. I also hope with ERASMOís kind offer of weighing a real Mackís pizza, we might be able to newer/better numbers to work with.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on April 15, 2011, 12:38:40 PM
ERASMO,

Thanks a lot for posting that you will weigh a Mack's pizza the next time you buy one.  ;D That will help this thread a lot. You have already helped this thread many times. I know you have bought Mack's pizza many times.  What I would like to ask you is, when you see them free throwing all that cheese and also not weighing the sauce that is put on their pizzas, don't you think there could be different weights when each pizza is weighed?  That is also stumping me on trying to know how much cheese or sauce to add.  When I watched them different times it seemed like different amounts of cheese and sauce were added to each pizza.

Norma

Well, they definately do it freehand but they seem very consistent.  The pizza men have alot of repetition there!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2011, 01:29:50 PM
I will use the same formula with the same flour, and also the same TF, but might change the oil to soybean oil.  All depends if I have time to purchase some soybean oil. 

Norma,

Soybean oil is sold as "vegetable oil", and formerly as "salad oil" (the term that Tom Lehmann usually uses, which dates the man), so you may already have some in your cupboard.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 15, 2011, 01:40:21 PM
Well, they definately do it freehand but they seem very consistent.  The pizza men have alot of repetition there!

ERASMO,

You are right about that. It is always interesting to see how people who do repetitive tasks in great numbers are able to get very close on each item they estimate. It is where there are different workers that variations occur, at least until they get up to speed. Looking at the Mack's videos and photos, I noticed that there have been several pizza makers at Mack's over time so I would expect variations in the cheese and toppings that go onto their pizzas. It would be easy I think for Mack's to go to portioning cups on the cheese. I think it would save them a lot of money. Also, as they and/or Mack & Manco's expand their operations (I notice that there are franchising opportunities: http://www.mackandmancopizzatoo.com/franchise.asp), you would want to nail down everything as much as possible to give franchisees the best chance to make money.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 15, 2011, 05:01:06 PM
Norma,

Soybean oil is sold as "vegetable oil", and formerly as "salad oil" (the term that Tom Lehmann usually uses, which dates the man), so you may already have some in your cupboard.

Peter

Peter,

I do have Crisco oil in my cupboard, but the label is off.  I guess Crisco is vegetable oil or the same as soybean oil.  I really donít know.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2011, 05:31:24 PM
I used the same formula as I posted last time at Reply 595 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713 and the only thing I changed in this mix, was I added the vegetable oil last before the 8 minute mix time on speed 2.  I did use Crisco oil this time, instead of the Canola oil, that I used the last time in the formula.

This is a picture what the dough looked like right after it came out of the mixer bowl, mixed in the Kitchen Aid mixer.

Norma

Peter,

I either must have missed the last sentence of your post at Reply 619 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135306.html#msg135306 or either you might have edited that post.


Norma,
 
And do they pay for the privilege?

Peter

My standholders, maintenance men, or even customers donít pay to try samples of any test pizzas I make.  If someone wants to buy a slice of one of the test pizzas, then I charged them less than I normally do charge for a slice.  Sometimes if there are leftovers slices of test pizzas, my one friend near the end of the night will buy them all.  Some customers walk by and ask what kind of pizza is sitting on the racks sometimes.  The one thing that I find interesting about that is, if it is a Greek pizza or a pizza that I say has all or mostly cheddar, they stick their noses up at the word cheddar.  They donít know what they are missing.  I guess most people think pizza should just have mozzarella as the cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2011, 05:43:09 PM
Norma,

I think what happened is that I was editing as you were posting.

In your last post, you mentioned olive oil. Did you mean Crisco vegetable oil (soybean)?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2011, 05:48:27 PM
Norma,

I think what happened is that I was editing as you were posting.

In your last post, you mentioned olive oil. Did you mean Crisco vegetable oil (soybean)?

Peter

Peter,

I edited my post.  I did use Crisco oil today.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 18, 2011, 06:42:26 PM
If anyone is interested, this is how the Mackís dough looked today at market.  As can been seen the dough isnít fermenting very fast and does have a yellowish hue.  Pinocchio & Jiminy Cricket are waiting for another attempt at a Mackís pizza.

Pictures of dough ball top and bottom.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 08:24:41 AM
For my next attempt at the Mackís pizza, I used my regular tomato sauce I use at market to see if the taste of the tomato sauce has something to do with how a Mackís pizza would taste with a different tomato sauce other than a paste with added oregano, a little sugar, black pepper and water.  Although this crust did almost taste and look like a Mackís pizza, the flavor of my regular tomato sauce really threw the taste of the whole pizza attempt off.  I did use less of the cheese blend than I used on my last attempt.  I also watered my regular tomato sauce down and the sauce I applied was thinner. This attempt wasnít as greasy as my last attempt either.  Next week I might try WalMartís tomato paste or my paste like I did last week.  Just by using my regular tomato sauce, this pizza didnít taste the same as last week. 

I canít decide if I liked the crust of this attempt better than last week, made with the Canola oil.  This week I had used Crisco oil in the formula.  To me this crust tasted different than last week, when I used Canola oil, but still was good.  Now I canít decide if I want to change back to Canola oil or not.

The dough fermented about the same as last week.  I left the dough ball warm-up for about 2 hours.  With the formula I used, the dough doesnít ferment too fast.  The dough was easy to open and it could be thrown.  I had to place a screen under the pizza again, near the end of the bake, because it wanted to brown too fast.  Even though this attempt did look more like a Mackís pizza in the way the cheese and sauce were applied, my last attempt tasted more in line with a Mackís pizza.

Steve, Pinocchio & Jiminy Cricket mentioned they like my attempt last week better. I would agree with them.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 08:28:15 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 08:30:36 AM
more pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 08:33:15 AM
end of pictures

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on April 20, 2011, 10:04:43 AM
Norma,

I know the tomato paste thing seems weird but, stick with it, I think it makes a very unique flavor.  My Mack's audience doesn't know how to make a pizza but they sure know how to erase one.  The Macks clone recipe you gave me earlier must have reminded them of something, not because of what they said, but because of how silent they were until we got down to the last piece and they could breathe again.  

My guess is, anybody who shoots sauce from a hose probably is not fussing over the freshest tomatoes they can have grown for them.  Also, to get it through the hose they can't have too many chunks/skins etc.  I know from beer brewing, lots of solids in a pumped substance can cause clogs by "bridging", can't have that.  Not to say that your paste recipe is cheap or bad, well, it may be cheap, but the flavor once baked is really good.  I think its valid to assume that Mack's is not into the highest priced/quality ingredients as much as they are at cutting cost corners and making a really tasty product...a valid business model.

Keep up the good work for the benefit of man kind.  This is a truly awesome style of pizza that breaks a lot of rules but delivers unique flavors in its unpretentiousness.

Ron
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on April 20, 2011, 02:07:17 PM
Norma,

I know the tomato paste thing seems weird but, stick with it, I think it makes a very unique flavor.  My Mack's audience doesn't know how to make a pizza but they sure know how to erase one.  The Macks clone recipe you gave me earlier must have reminded them of something, not because of what they said, but because of how silent they were until we got down to the last piece and they could breathe again.  

My guess is, anybody who shoots sauce from a hose probably is not fussing over the freshest tomatoes they can have grown for them.  Also, to get it through the hose they can't have too many chunks/skins etc.  I know from beer brewing, lots of solids in a pumped substance can cause clogs by "bridging", can't have that.  Not to say that your paste recipe is cheap or bad, well, it may be cheap, but the flavor once baked is really good.  I think its valid to assume that Mack's is not into the highest priced/quality ingredients as much as they are at cutting cost corners and making a really tasty product...a valid business model.

Keep up the good work for the benefit of man kind.  This is a truly awesome style of pizza that breaks a lot of rules but delivers unique flavors in its unpretentiousness.

Ron

Ron,

I knew what brand of sauce Mackís was using and had used the real Gangi sauce Steve had bought for me, so I already knew what the raw sauce and the Gangi sauce baked on a pizza would taste like. The real Gangi sauce bought at Bova did cost 8.99 for a can.  I donít know what kind of price Mackís pays for their Gangi sauce, but would think it would be a lot cheaper from a distributor. I didnít really like the taste of the real Gangi sauce, but when baked on the attempts at the Mackís pizza, it changed for the better.  I want to experiment with WalMartís brand of paste.  I think, but donít know, it will almost taste like the Gangi sauce.  I watched the Gangi sauce come though those hoses at Mackís and saw their wasnít anything like tomato peels or anything that could obstruct the sauce coming though those hoses.  I only wanted to try my own regular paste with the ingredients I add to see if that would really change the flavor profile of the attempt I made yesterday.  It did really change the whole flavor profile of the whole pizza.

One of Mackís piemen explained to me that the use of the hose is to save a couple seconds in preparing each pizza.  I can understand how the hose does save time. 

I also believe this is a awesome pizza if it is done right, but I am biased because I have enjoyed Mackís pizza since I was young. 

I am glad your audience did enjoy your Mackís pizzas.  That was a good sign that they devoured your pizza, until they could breathe again.  Congrats on making such a good pizza for your guests!  ;D

There is so much to learn when trying to clone a pizza.  Although we might never get this Mackís pizza exactly right, at least we will know that we tried.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on May 18, 2011, 05:33:30 PM
Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on May 18, 2011, 07:19:36 PM
Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th

Just ask them exactly, "What types of cheeses are in the cheese blend used on the pizza?" and take note of what they say. ;) :angel:
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 18, 2011, 09:33:45 PM
Just got back from bringing a M&M (M&M Too in Somers Point) pie home, there wasent much to see but i did noticed that the oven did fluctuate from 500 degrees - 513 degrees.  If anyone needs me to get another one and weight, let me know, im only 5 minutes away and here till the 29th

PiedPiper,

It would be helpful to have the weight of a baked M&M pizza.  I noticed too, when I went to Mackís pizza the ovens did fluctuate. I wonder if M&M would sell you a dough ball.  I had asked at Mackís and they wouldnít sell me a dough ball. I wish I could be eating a M&M pizza.

Thanks for your help on this thread!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on May 18, 2011, 10:23:13 PM
PiedPiper,

It would be helpful to have the weight of a baked M&M pizza.  I noticed too, when I went to Mackís pizza the ovens did fluctuate. I wonder if M&M would sell you a dough ball.  I had asked at Mackís and they wouldnít sell me a dough ball. I wish I could be eating a M&M pizza.

Thanks for your help on this thread!

Norma

Ill get another and weigh it (after all its all in the name of science  :-D)  Ill even scrape the sauce/cheese off a slice and weigh the crust alone if it will help, just let me know.  Tonights pizza was grossly misshapen, still tasted the same though, (ill post a picture tomorrow)  dIts almost like M&M Too is a training store for their original up on the boardwalk.

Just ask them exactly, "What types of cheeses are in the cheese blend used on the pizza?" and take note of what they say. ;) :angel:

Ill also ask about the cheese blend but im thinking this is not information they regularly give out.  Tonight tho i could swear it was a mozzarella/provolone/white cheddar blend
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 18, 2011, 10:33:11 PM
Ill even scrape the sauce/cheese off a slice and weigh the crust alone if it will help, just let me know.

PiedPiper,

That will be helpful. Slices aren't exactly the same size but the extrapolation for the entire pizza should be helpful and might tell us whether we are in the ballpark with our numbers. The total baked weight will also be useful to know.

Thank you for offering to help.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: matermark on May 18, 2011, 10:42:57 PM
Ill also ask about the cheese blend but im thinking this is not information they regularly give out.  Tonight tho i could swear it was a mozzarella/provolone/white cheddar blend

That's why it's important to say it exactly worded that way. I doubt they would reveal everything if it is a blend, but I'm pretty sure they said it's not a blend... or was that Norma? Someone said one thing, someone else said something else. Maybe we can get it from the horse's mouth this time. :-D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on May 20, 2011, 01:00:58 PM
Sorry for the late pictures all, havent had much down time.  Ill try to get another pie to weigh either tonight or tomorrow when their A team should be on.  Here is the misshapen one I got on Wednesday, I also took a pic of a sauce-less portion of the cheese.  Hopefully this helps unwrap our cheese riddle!



Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 20, 2011, 06:27:52 PM

PiedPiper,

Thanks for providing pictures of M&M pizza you had.   :)  It looks good to me.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on May 28, 2011, 01:56:35 PM
Havent forgotten about yall, got a hot fresh M&M pizza in my hands and will have weights up tonight/tomorrow morning!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on May 28, 2011, 03:13:29 PM
Ok minds well post it up while its still fresh im my head  :-D
Pizza & box 1095g (not real sure on this number since moms scale did not have the hold function) Since no hold function I decided to weigh it a slice at a time,  measurements usually varied by -1g/+1g (i will list the second weight i got as *g/*g)

Slice 1 - 119g/120g
Slice 2 - 106g
Slice 3 - 94g
Slice 4 - 93g
Slice 5 - 112g
Slice 6 - 130g
Slice 7 - 166g/167g
Slice 8 - 162
Crust Scraps from cutting: 3g
Whole Pie: 986g / 8 slices = Average of 123g Per Slice.

I then took the first Slice (119g/120g) because it was the most average slice and scrapped the cheese off.
Slice 1 Without cheese - 81g
Cheese scraps 37g/38g

Finally I weighed the box just to check our math :)
Box - 108g

*will add pictures later, all this thinking has made me hungry!!  :-D*

Edit *i also forgot to ask about the cheese blend but from my view it looked like they were using white cheeder/provalone blend*
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 04:44:08 PM
PiedPiper,

Thanks so much for doing all the weighing.  :) I can imagine you are hungry from all the weighing.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 28, 2011, 08:41:30 PM
PiedPiper,

I also thank you very much for your efforts and meticulous analysis of the slices and the whole pie. Based on what you posted, I went back through this thread to see how the clones that Norma and I made measured up against the weights you provided. The total baked weight that I used for my analysis was the 986 grams number you provided, which converts to 34.78 ounces. Of course, there is no way to know the unbaked weight of the Mack's pizza to be able to calculate the weight loss during baking. As clonists (my new term for Norma and me  :-D), Norma and I used different ovens than the Roto-Flex ovens, so the weight losses in our ovens will be different than the losses sustained in a Roto-Flex oven. Also, in my case, I used a combination of pizza screen and stone to be able to make 18" pizzas in my standard home oven. Until fairly recently, Norma made 16" pizzas (more on this below).

My best and closest clone from a weight standpoint was the one described starting at Reply 307 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472. For that pizza, I used a dough ball weight of 21 ounces, about 12 ounces of a cheese blend, and about 7 ounces of sauce. The total unbaked pizza weight was 38.84 ounces and the total baked weight was 33.93 ounces, for a loss during baking of about 14.5%. I believe that my numbers would have been closer to Mack's numbers if I was able to bake the pizza in a commercial oven, which should have shortened the total bake time and resulted in less loss during baking.

For Norma's pizzas to examine, I was most interested in the Mack clones that she baked in her commercial deck oven at market since her deck oven would produce results closer to the oven used at Mack's than my clones baked in a standard home oven. Two of Norma's Mack's clones that I found to analyze are the ones at Reply 366 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg102867.html#msg102867 and Reply 399 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg103522.html#msg103522. Those were 16" clones and both were baked at market. However, when I extrapolated her weight numbers to the 18" size (by multiplying her weight numbers by 81/64), the weights were also quite close to the Mack's numbers.

It wasn't until Reply 595 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713 that Norma attempted her first 18" Mack's clone at market. That particular version adopted recommendations that I proposed for the dough in Reply 493 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg112760.html#msg112760. Based on her conclusion that the 18" Mack's clone was the closest and best one that she had made, I would say that the formulation she used is perhaps the best one to date on the forum. I do not believe that Norma mentioned the amounts of cheese(s) and sauce she used, or unbaked/baked pizza weights, but if she extrapolated the cheese(s) and sauce weights from what she used for the 14" clones referenced above, I think the unbaked and baked pizza weights would be close to the real Mack's numbers. No doubt the particular cheese blend and sauce that Norma used also contributed mightily to her results.

What cannot be divined with accuracy from the data you provided is the relative amounts of cheese(s) and sauce. Weight losses during baking can take place in all parts of the pizza, including the dough, the sauce and the cheese(s), and at different rates. However, I believe that a basic dough weight of 21 ounces is a very good starting point (using Norma's last formulation or one similar to it), and using around 10 ounces of cheese(s) and around 7.5 ounces of sauce should get one to a total unbaked pizza weight of around 38.5 ounces. This is not too far off the number (38 ounces) I estimated way back in Reply 313 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99531/topicseen.html#msg99531. Assuming a weight loss during baking of around 10% should get fairly close to a baked pizza weight of around 34.5 ounces. It is important to keep in mind that none of us is likely to nail the Mack's numbers exactly because of our different ovens and related bake times, bake configurations, etc. However, I believe that the dough, cheese(s) and sauce weights given above are a good place from which to try to make future clones.

Again, thank you for your efforts. I think that they show that we have been on the right track for some time. Hopefully, we may get even closer, especially if we learn more about Mack's cheese(s).

If I missed anything, Norma should feel free to fill in the blanks or to correct any misstatements. This is a very long thread so it is possible I missed something.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2011, 10:56:49 PM
Peter,

You didnít miss anything that I know of.  It was interesting since PiedPiper did weigh so accurately, how close the numbers were, for your Mackís clone and my Mackís clone.  I am going to try a Mackís clone again in the coming month and all the numbers are helpful to me and anyone that wants to try this style of pizza.  Next time I will try to weigh my sauce and cheese and also a pie after the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on May 29, 2011, 09:42:38 AM
Norma,

I want to remind everyone that there is nothing absolute about the numbers I mentioned in my last post for the dough, sauce and cheese(s). I think the weights of the three components should come to around 38-39 ounces on an unbaked basis, but there can be some variations in the amounts of sauce and cheese(s) and still get to about 38-39 ounces. I'm willing to bet that such variations also exist from pizza to pizza made by the pizza makers at Mack's since they don't weigh anything (other than the dough balls--maybe) and Mack's perhaps runs through a lot of pizza makers in their business, each with his or her heavy or light hand. For example, when I looked at the weights of two Mack's slices that you purchased and showed earlier in this thread, they were greater than the average weight of the slices that PiedPiper reported from his recent visit.

For your additional information, I used the cheese amount from the slice (Slice 1) that PiedPiper weighed and used the percentage of the cheese for that slice to calculate the amount of cheese from slice to slice. I got a total of 10.77 ounces. However, that assumes a uniform distribution of cheese(s) across the pizza, which is unlikely, and there may also be a small amount of sauce mixed in with the cheese scraps. However, I think PiedPiper's cheese numbers are in the ballpark. I also suspect that the weight losses during baking may be greatest for the sauce, since it is mostly water. Unfortunately, there is no way to calculate that loss or determine the amount of sauce from PiedPiper's numbers. My best advice is for people to use whatever amount of sauce and cheese(s) that they like. However, I would perhaps use a dough weight of 21 ounces and use amounts of sauce and cheese(s) to get to a total unbaked pizza weight of around 38-39 ounces. Otherwise, the clone may not be a close replica of a real Mack's pizza. Of course, for some people that may not be the objective. For smaller size pizzas, one would have to scale down the amounts of dough, sauce and cheese(s) based on the surface area of the smaller size pizzas relative to the surface area of the 18" size pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on May 29, 2011, 12:40:32 PM
Peter,

I also donít think any of Mackís pizza are really consistent, except the dough balls weights.  I know the different times I did watch the piemen put the sauce and cheese on the pies, they just put them on real fast.  Even with the frozen slices I had save for almost a year, that I reported on at Reply 613 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135280.html#msg135280 and Reply 614 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135281.html#msg135281 there wasnít a lot of cheese on those parbaked slices.  I know that whole pie, from those slices, was updumped from the wind, and some cheese stuck on the lid of the box, that day last year in Wildwood, at Reply 215 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97859.html#msg97859 (and the following post),  but even when I tired to weight the whole pie in the parking lot before we left Wildwood, there didnít look like a lot of cheese on that pie. 

I thought I might get to Wildwood in May, but that wasnít in the cards.  Maybe sometime this summer I might be able to visit Mackís again. 

I know we didnít really clone the Mackís pizza, but it felt good, getting the results I had on the second to last bake. I think that pizza had more cheese than Mackís adds. I am still thinking over another combination of cheeses to try to see if they taste anything like the cheese Mackís uses.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 16, 2011, 02:33:53 PM
Maybe this guy Mark C knows something!!  LOLOLO
http://www.wildwoodpizzatour.com/macks-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-1219
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2011, 04:30:38 PM
Maybe this guy Mark C knows something!!  LOLOLO
http://www.wildwoodpizzatour.com/macks-pizza/comment-page-1/#comment-1219

ERASMO,

Your post gave me a good chuckle.  :-D Thanks for the link about what people are saying about Mackís pizza.  I guess you either love Mackís or donít. The thing I guess I like the most about Mackís pizza is the greasy cheese.  Did you eat any Mackís pizza lately?  I had wanted to go to Wildwood in May, but 8 stray kittens came into my life.  I sure couldnít leave them and go to Wildwood.  I still am trying to find them homes.  I still have some hope of getting to Mackís this summer, if I am lucky.  ::)

I didnít know anything about pizza tours in Wildwood.  Did you know about them?

Norma 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on June 16, 2011, 07:42:31 PM
ERASMO,

Your post gave me a good chuckle.  :-D Thanks for the link about what people are saying about Mackís pizza.  I guess you either love Mackís or donít. The thing I guess I like the most about Mackís pizza is the greasy cheese.  Did you eat any Mackís pizza lately?  I had wanted to go to Wildwood in May, but 8 stray kittens came into my life.  I sure couldnít leave them and go to Wildwood.  I still am trying to find them homes.  I still have some hope of getting to Mackís this summer, if I am lucky.  ::)

I didnít know anything about pizza tours in Wildwood.  Did you know about them?

Norma 

This is the first that I have seen this.  I have not had macks yet this summer.   Might try to go this weekend.

Good luck with the cats.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 16, 2011, 09:35:44 PM
This is the first that I have seen this.  I have not had macks yet this summer.   Might try to go this weekend.

Good luck with the cats.

ERASMO,

Thanks for the good luck with the kittens!  They sure keep me busy.  :-D  Eat a slice of Mack's pizza for me if you go this weekend.  I sure would love to be there!   ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on June 18, 2011, 03:33:43 PM
Anyone hear of Alex's pizza in Philadelphia?   Looks to me to be a pizza in the same fashion as your Boardwalk pizza.  Not saying it taste as good, never had either but I found this on the net.  I did a search of the pizza forum and did not find a post on this so here it is -

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/swirl-pizza-philadelphia-roxborough-alexs-review-what-is-swirl-pizza.html?ref=obinsite
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 18, 2011, 05:00:43 PM
Anyone hear of Alex's pizza in Philadelphia?   Looks to me to be a pizza in the same fashion as your Boardwalk pizza.  Not saying it taste as good, never had either but I found this on the net.  I did a search of the pizza forum and did not find a post on this so here it is -

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/02/swirl-pizza-philadelphia-roxborough-alexs-review-what-is-swirl-pizza.html?ref=obinsite

PizzaEater101,

Maybe other members might have been to Alex's pizza, but I never was.  Thanks for the link!  :)  I did see that post on Slice, but many other members haven't.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on June 22, 2011, 07:29:53 AM
Here is my M&M Clone which even my family agreed was very close to M&M's,  cheese used was shredded provolone with a small amount of white cheddar which as you notice has almost the same characteristics as m&M's cheese.  Here is the dough recipe I used:

(2) 12Ē doughís,  TF = .08252, Bowl compensation = 1%
Flour (100%):    319.85 g  |  11.28 oz | 0.71 lbs
Water (58%):    185.51 g  |  6.54 oz | 0.41 lbs   (I used Blue Moon beer)
IDY (.35%):    1.12 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.37 tsp | 0.12 tbsp  (1/2 tsp)
Salt (1%):    3.2 g | 0.11 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.57 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
Olive Oil (5%):    15.99 g | 0.56 oz | 0.04 lbs | 3.55 tsp | 1.18 tbsp
Sugar (1.55%):    4.96 g | 0.17 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.24 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
Vital Wheat Gluten (1.2%):    3.84 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp  (1 tsp)
Total (167.1%):   534.46 g | 18.85 oz | 1.18 lbs | TF = 0.0833452
Single Ball:   267.23 g | 9.43 oz | 0.59 lbs


But again i dont think it was as much the dough recipe as using mainly provolone cheese which M&M's gets its flavor.  Norma can you try this at market and report back your thoughts since you had m&m's before
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 08:59:56 AM
PiedPiper,

Thanks for posting your formula and the cheeses you used for your M&M clone.  Do you have the brands of Provolone and white cheddar you used?  I have access to many brands of Provolone and white cheddar in my area.  Your blend of cheeses, when melted, did have the characteristics of a M&M pizza. 

Great job on your M&M clone!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on June 22, 2011, 09:31:52 AM
I do not know the brand of the provolone but it was most likely it was a common brand like Lands O Lake.  Ill check for ya next time I go to Kroager.  As for the White Cheddar i think it was Kroager brand which came pre sliced, the packaging had a clear top with a black bottom.  Again ill get brand names when i go back.  My blend percentage was also pretty low since the family ate all but about 6 slices of it which i added to 1lb+ of shredded provolone.  My fermentation time was not long either,  it had a room temp ferment on the counter for 3-4 hours then spent over night in the fridge then i took it out about 3 hours prior to use,  My oven temp was also in the 500-525 range.  And for the full experience here is my sauce recipe i used which is a very neutral but good tasting sauce (not too bitter but not too tomatoey)  Mext attempt i will water it down tho.

12oz can Contadina tomato paste
1 - 1/2 cup water (plous 3/4 can full)
1/2 tsp dried Oregano
1/4 tsp Dried Basil
1/4 tsp Kosher salt
1/8 tsp Ground Black Pepper
1/4 tsp Sugar
1/4 garlic powder
2 tsp onion powder
drizzle EVOO
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on June 22, 2011, 09:54:54 AM
PiedPiper, your Mack pizza looks great.  I have to make one, one day. I never tried the original and can't because I don't live over there but I have to try to make one to get a good idea.  I have tried to make one once but I messed it up and have not tried since.  I will try again within a month time.  Thanks for sharing your experience making this pie.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 22, 2011, 09:58:08 AM
PiedPiper,

Thanks for saying you would check on the brand of cheeses you used.  Thanks for also posting the amount of cheeses you used and your workflow with your formula.  The sauce you used also sounds good.  Did it remind you of M&Mís sauce?

All your information is helpful if they want to try a M&Mís clone.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on June 22, 2011, 12:29:57 PM
PiedPiper,

Thanks for saying you would check on the brand of cheeses you used.  Thanks for also posting the amount of cheeses you used and your workflow with your formula.  The sauce you used also sounds good.  Did it remind you of M&Mís sauce?

All your information is helpful if they want to try a M&Mís clone.  :)

Norma

The sauce was good because it worked well to compliment both the cheese and the crust, id say M&Ms is more tomattoey but the great thing about theirs is their 'swirl' which always gives a different degree of tomattoey-ness in each bite
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on June 26, 2011, 09:01:52 AM
This my first post on NJ pizza thread ,

The first time I went there was in 1972 ,I was ten years old and we went back a few times after that
IIRC  so the last time  ,I was 14 .

I can still remember the taste of Macks even after all these years .
What I remember is that the flavors instead of staying on the front of your tongue,
they would explode nicely and tickle your cheecks  inside .

It is just tomato and cheese but what a wonderful combination !

This is the reason why I'm here in the forum ,I was searching on the net to see if a Mack employee
would have splill the beans and I ended up reading about Norma's effort to clone the Macks Pizza.

I am also very surprised of the generosity of everyone here about writting and sharing their
experience and knowledge .

This is a nice place to be and the only desapointment for me is to order the same tomato and cheese that you have in the US to get the it right cause I'm near Montreal and I can only try with whats around here. Maybe I'll find some very good tomatos in an Italian market in Montreal and be lucky!


Sheers!..................Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2011, 09:57:00 AM
This my first post on NJ pizza thread ,

The first time I went there was in 1972 ,I was ten years old and we went back a few times after that
IIRC  so the last time  ,I was 14 .

I can still remember the taste of Macks even after all these years .
What I remember is that the flavors instead of staying on the front of your tongue,
they would explode nicely and tickle your cheecks  inside .

It is just tomato and cheese but what a wonderful combination !

This is the reason why I'm here in the forum ,I was searching on the net to see if a Mack employee
would have splill the beans and I ended up reading about Norma's effort to clone the Macks Pizza.

I am also very surprised of the generosity of everyone here about writting and sharing their
experience and knowledge .

This is a nice place to be and the only desapointment for me is to order the same tomato and cheese that you have in the US to get the it right cause I'm near Montreal and I can only try with whats around here. Maybe I'll find some very good tomatos in an Italian market in Montreal and be lucky!


Sheers!..................Louis

Louis,

Glad to see you on the NJ Boardwalk thread and you remembering Mackís pizza.  :) Everyone here on the forum shares their ideas and helps to clone a pizza, if possible.  Peterís directed me to where I think I made a decent Mackís clone crust.  I would think if you have a Walmart near where you live, their Great Value Tomato Paste would be a good way for you to start with adding oregano, a little sugar, and pepper.  I have tried Great Value Tomato Paste before and it almost tastes like the Gangi Sauce Mackís uses.  As for the cheese, at least I found if you can find some white cheddar that is sharp and mix it with white cheddar that is not as sharp, it might give you something like the flavor of Mackís cheese.  You could also add some Provolone to see if that gives a Mackís taste.  I havenít tried adding some Provolone, but think I might in my next attempt.

I donít know why, but I also still really love Mackís pizza.  ;D

This is a video I found on Wildwood and the NJ shore and also a picture of Mackís.  Maybe it would bring back some memories for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1eH0SnV328

Norma

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on June 26, 2011, 09:38:11 PM
Louis,

Glad to see you on the NJ Boardwalk thread and you remembering Mackís pizza.  :) Everyone here on the forum shares their ideas and helps to clone a pizza, if possible.  Peterís directed me to where I think I made a decent Mackís clone crust.  I would think if you have a Walmart near where you live, their Great Value Tomato Paste would be a good way for you to start with adding oregano, a little sugar, and pepper.  I have tried Great Value Tomato Paste before and it almost tastes like the Gangi Sauce Mackís uses.  As for the cheese, at least I found if you can find some white cheddar that is sharp and mix it with white cheddar that is not as sharp, it might give you something like the flavor of Mackís cheese.  You could also add some Provolone to see if that gives a Mackís taste.  I havenít tried adding some Provolone, but think I might in my next attempt.

I donít know why, but I also still really love Mackís pizza.  ;D



This is a video I found on Wildwood and the NJ shore and also a picture of Mackís.  Maybe it would bring back some memories for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1eH0SnV328

Norma



Thank's for the input Norma !

I was wondering if you are still addingsome garlic powder in your sauce?
What are the approximit amount of garlic/sugar let say for a can that you would suggest ?


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2011, 10:50:51 PM
Thank's for the input Norma !

I was wondering if you are still addingsome garlic powder in your sauce?
What are the approximit amount of garlic/sugar let say for a can that you would suggest ?


Louis

Louis,

Steve and I didnít put any garlic powder in the last successful pizza we made.  We only used a little bit of sugar, dried oregano, and ground pepper.  I forgot to tell you if you have access to the Walmart tomato paste, you will need to water it down some, or at least until it is a little thinner.  When Steve bought me the real Gangi sauce,( which Mackís does use) the sauce tasted bitter to me, when tasted plain.  Even after the other ingredients were added it still tasted a little bitter to me.  I donít know how the Gangi sauce (Gangi is like a tomato paste) on Mackís pizza then tastes so good, but there must be something in the bake that changes the sauce, because after the bake the whole flavor profile changes.  If you can find a tomato paste that does taste a little bitter, you might be able to successfully make a Mackís clone if you also find the right combination of cheeses.  I am not sure how much sugar we used in the best attempt, but it might have been only about Ĺ teaspoon or less.  In the next attempt we will measure it.

Hope my post helps.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on June 27, 2011, 10:00:21 PM
Louis,

Steve and I didnít put any garlic powder in the last successful pizza we made.  We only used a little bit of sugar, dried oregano, and ground pepper.  I forgot to tell you if you have access to the Walmart tomato paste, you will need to water it down some, or at least until it is a little thinner.  When Steve bought me the real Gangi sauce,( which Mackís does use) the sauce tasted bitter to me, when tasted plain.  Even after the other ingredients were added it still tasted a little bitter to me.  I donít know how the Gangi sauce (Gangi is like a tomato paste) on Mackís pizza then tastes so good, but there must be something in the bake that changes the sauce, because after the bake the whole flavor profile changes.  If you can find a tomato paste that does taste a little bitter, you might be able to successfully make a Mackís clone if you also find the right combination of cheeses.  I am not sure how much sugar we used in the best attempt, but it might have been only about Ĺ teaspoon or less.  In the next attempt we will measure it.

Hope my post helps.





Thank's Norma !

I will make some test and will report back !
Do you think that Macks use a mix of cheddar (mild and medium )or a mix of cheddar and mozza ?


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2011, 10:47:01 PM

Thank's Norma !

I will make some test and will report back !
Do you think that Macks use a mix of cheddar (mild and medium )or a mix of cheddar and mozza ?


Louis

Louis,

I really don't think Mack's uses a mix of cheddar or a mix of cheddar and mozzarella.  At least from what we found out so far we think it is straight cheddar, but we don't know the brand.  In my opinion it is the cheddar that give Mack's pizza its unique taste.  I have tried State Brand and also many others.  Maybe someday a member will find out the brand of cheddar Mack's uses.

Best of luck and post pictures if you try a Mack's clone.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 03, 2011, 11:11:39 PM
I decided to mix another Mackís dough today after Steve went to Wildwood over the weekend and tasted Mackís pizza.  Since the taste of Mackís pizza is still fresh in his mind, I wanted to see if he thought the pizzas I have been making do taste like Mackís pizza. Steve never ate Mackís pizza before.  Steve said he wasnít as wild about Mackís pizza as I am and said it was good, but not great.  Steve said he thought the cheese what is made Mackís pizza different.  I guess different people really love Mackís pizza or donít.   :-D

I also thought I would try another kind of tomato paste that I didnít try before.  It is the Shurfine brand of tomato paste.  I also purchased another brand of sharp cheddar today, that tastes good to me, but I donít know what the taste will be when baked on the pizza.  

The final dough temperature on the dough was 80.2 degrees F.  This time I used Kyrol flour.

Edit:  If anyone looked at the dough ball I put the wrong picture here.  It will be right now.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 04, 2011, 09:59:44 AM
That's right, I finally got to try the real thing and like Norma said, I thought it was pretty good but not great. I much prefer my own, homemade N.Y. style pizza. The crust had a nice flavor but was very bread-like in texture without any open crumb structure. The cheese is definitely the distinctive factor in Macks pizza. I asked both a server and a pie man about the type of cheese and as has been previously reported, was told that it's a white cheddar, not blended. The pie man told me he absolutely would not(not could not)tell me the brand. He did, however, say it had something to do with the aging that made it special. Take that for what it's worth, I guess.
 I ate at both Macks locations on the boardwalk and found the pizza to be identical.
 The rotoflex ovens were interesting. the one guy was constantly adjusting the thermostat and I saw a range of temps between 515 and 570. I guess it's hard to keep a constant temp with the door opening and closing as much as it does.
 Sorry, I only got a few good pictures.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 04, 2011, 10:01:12 AM
more
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 04, 2011, 10:07:57 AM
Yesterday, I thawed a dough ball from last week and made my own little Macks clone. I adjusted my sauce to be a little plainer and used a new white cheddar I recently picked up at Russos. I pressed as much gas out as I could, applied the cheese first, then a spiral of sauce, then a little more cheese and baked at 550 until it looked done. I didn't time the bake. I think I got pretty close but I added too much sauce. I'll bring some of this cheese to market for Norma to try.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 10:22:21 AM
Steve,

Thanks for your report on your visit to both Mackís.  :) The picture of the dough balls are good and they almost look like they were a little wet on the bottom.  The pictures of the piemen pressing out the dough are good too!  I think the way the piemen press out the dough before they open the skins the whole way, is why the rim doesnít get more oven spring. 

I still could eat a slice of Mackís pizza any day.  :)

Your Mackís clone does look very good!  ;D Will be interested in tasting the white cheddar cheese you bought at Russoís. Do you think the Russo's white cheddar tastes anything like Mack's cheese? Hopefully our Mackís clone will go well tomorrow.  The tomato paste I bought yesterday is a Shurfine brand and the only ingredient listed is tomato.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 04, 2011, 10:31:11 AM
Actually, I think the cheese I used may be pretty close. What threw it off, I think, was my sauce. Mine has a lot more going on than Macks. I did try to temper the flavor a bit by adding a can of tomato paste and thinning it some with water.
 Next time I go to Russos, I'll ask what brand of cheese this is. They had repackaged it in smaller portions and numbered it 703. It's very mild and creamy.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 04, 2011, 10:43:21 AM
Actually, I think the cheese I used may be pretty close. What threw it off, I think, was my sauce. Mine has a lot more going on than Macks. I did try to temper the flavor a bit by adding a can of tomato paste and thinning it some with water.
 Next time I go to Russos, I'll ask what brand of cheese this is. They had repackaged it in smaller portions and numbered it 703. It's very mild and creamy.

Steve,

I donít know if you remember, but my last attempt I used my regular tomato sauce at Reply 637 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg135933.html#msg135933 and I think that threw the whole taste of the Mackís attempt off. I donít know if you remember the pie I made before my last attempt, but I think that was the closest I came to Mackís pizza. I know both you and I have tasted the real Gangi sauce Mackís uses, so maybe tomorrow trying the Shurfine brand of tomato paste I bought, maybe we both can taste it first.  I wanted to purchase some Walmart brand of tomato paste, but this weekend being a holiday weekend, I would have to go though much traffic to get to the Walmartís near me that sells the Walmart brand of tomato paste.  The other smaller Walmart really near me doesnít carry the tomato paste. 

Glad to hear you think Russoís mild white cheddar might taste like Mackís cheese when baked on a pie. 

Thanks again for your report on Mackís pizza and your clone Mackís!  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2011, 08:32:08 AM
The next Mackís attempt went fairly well.  Steve and I tasted the Shurfine tomato paste right out of the 12 oz. can and it tasted a little bitter like the Gangi Sauce does.  Steve added different amounts of water, salt, sugar, dried basil leaves, and oregano to the Shurfine tomato paste, until we thought it almost tasted like the Gangi sauce right out of the can.  Steve added 1 tsp. of sugar, 1 tsp. oregano, 1/4 teaspoon of black pepper, and 1/4 teaspoon of crushed dried basil leaves to the 12 oz. size can of Shurfine tomato paste.  Steve added water, until he thought the Shurfine tomato paste was about the thickness of the Gangi sauce that comes out of the hose at Mackís pizza.  The mixture was put into a squeezable bottle to be applied. 

Steve and I weighed the dough ball before it was opened and it weighed 20.9 ounces. The dough balled opened up nicely and could be tossed.  Steve applied 7.5 ounces. of tomato sauce with the squeezable bottle and 10 ounces of white cheddar cheese (Steve bought at Russoís) in two steps. We wanted to weigh the unbaked pie, but were too busy to weigh it.  After the pie was baked, we did weigh the baked pie and it weighed 35.3 ounces, right out of the oven.

The dough ball was pressed out a lot before opening it.  I donít know why, but the while the pie was in the oven some bubbles wanted to form on the rim and in the middle of the pie.  They were broken with my bubble popper. 

The finished pie tasted a lot like a Mackís pie and the crumb, texture and taste of the crust seemed like a Mackís pizza.  Steve and I thought there was too much white cheddar cheese added and maybe a little more sauce could have been applied.  The taste of the white cheddar Steve bought did taste almost like a Mackís pizza cheese, but could have been a little more tangy.  Steve and I both thought the taste of the tomato sauce could have been a little sweeter.  I think if we try the same sauce again we would add more sugar to the Shurfine tomato paste. 

All in all this attempt was almost like a Mackís pizza, but still could use a few tweaks in the sauce and cheese.

A few customers saw the slices of Mackís pizza and wanted them instead of my regular preferment Lehmann dough slices.

Pictures below

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2011, 08:34:22 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 06, 2011, 06:49:21 PM
Wow!!!

You got to be kidding !!

Very nice job!.....looks so good  :pizza:!

Your getting closer and closer ,..congrats!  :D
Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2011, 09:11:14 PM
Wow!!!

You got to be kidding !!

Very nice job!.....looks so good  :pizza:!

Your getting closer and closer ,..congrats!  :D
Louis

Louis,

Thanks for your kind words!  :) The formula I used and the tomato paste with added ingredients do work well. I think most tomato pastes will work, but I havenít tried most of them.   In my opinion, getting the exact taste of the cheese, is what is hard to do.  Steveís white cheddar was very close, but not tangy enough.  His cheese melted well, but as I posted I think we used too much cheese.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2011, 09:23:47 PM
Norma,

What size was the pizza and did Steve (Ev) also think that the pizza you made tasted like a Mack's pizza but for the amounts of cheese and sauce?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 06, 2011, 10:49:17 PM
Norma,

What size was the pizza and did Steve (Ev) also think that the pizza you made tasted like a Mack's pizza but for the amounts of cheese and sauce?

Peter

Peter,

The size of the Mackís attempt was 18".  Steve did think the Mackís attempt tasted very similar to a real Mackís pizza, except for the tang in the cheese.  We both thought maybe a little more sauce should be added, with less cheese.  We both couldnít decide if more sugar should have been added to the Shurfine tomato paste.  When there are cheese and sauce combinations after the bake, the flavor profile of both can change.  We were going to try the creamy sharp white cheddar I bought on one side of the pizza, and Steveís cheddar he bought at Russoís on the other side, but thought that might be too much of a mess.

Steve can comment more if he wants to on the taste and texture of the crust and also what he thought of our clone attempt.  I think he took a slice of the Mackís attempt home to reheat, but I am not sure.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pizzamaster on July 07, 2011, 06:05:03 AM
So 35 pages in and no one has a clue. I am not in NJ. If I was I would know this information by now.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 07, 2011, 07:02:49 AM
We're not in Jersey either. Maybe that's the problem.

 I thought the cheese was actually pretty close and that the sauce was the bigger issue this time. Our previous sauces were closer, for sure. Didn't you write that down, Norma? The shurfine paste is quite bitter and definitely needed something. It could have been sweeter, and some salt would have helped a lot, as well. I don't think we added any salt, did we?
 I think the crust was pretty good, fairly neutral tasting altogether and with a slightly bready texture in the rim. Not exactly right, but probably in the ballpark.
I'd like to try a different sauce and the same cheese on an "old faithful" dough one time.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 07:58:35 AM
So 35 pages in and no one has a clue. I am not in NJ. If I was I would know this information by now.

Pizzamaster,

As Steve posted, I don't live in New Jersey and have only been able to get to Mack's once in a few years.  It isn't easy to try and clone another businesses pizza if the information isn't on the web for their dough, cheese, or sauce.  Any member that has visited Mack's also can't find out any more information than we already found out, because Mack's isn't interested in providing that information.  I can understand that, because then their pizzas wouldn't be different.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 08:11:58 AM
We're not in Jersey either. Maybe that's the problem.

 I thought the cheese was actually pretty close and that the sauce was the bigger issue this time. Our previous sauces were closer, for sure. Didn't you write that down, Norma? The shurfine paste is quite bitter and definitely needed something. It could have been sweeter, and some salt would have helped a lot, as well. I don't think we added any salt, did we?
 I think the crust was pretty good, fairly neutral tasting altogether and with a slightly bready texture in the rim. Not exactly right, but probably in the ballpark.
I'd like to try a different sauce and the same cheese on an "old faithful" dough one time.

Steve,

Thanks for posting you thought the cheese was actually pretty close.  Didnít you think it still needed a little more tang?  I think I do have all the sauce recipes posted on this thread and I know the Gangi sauce was the best, but to purchase Gangi sauce each time, gets to be expensive, plus it is far for me to drive to Bova.  Even if we do use the Gangi sauce, then maybe other members canít purchase it.  I had good luck using the Saporito super heavy/with fresh basil.  That too was a paste.  You are right, I just checked my notes and we didnít add salt to the Shurfine mixture.  If I get to Walmart, I will buy some Walmart paste to see how that works with other ingredients.

I donít know if I am going to be making anymore ďOld FaithfulĒ doughs.  To me that just tastes like a plain NY style pizza.  The rims in the attempts I made were fairly dry from the lower hydration.  I donít think Mackís crusts are that dry.  What do you think?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 07, 2011, 10:31:30 AM
Norma,

I don't know that the cheese needed more tang as much as the sauce needed less. I'd like to try the same cheese with the walmart paste with the additions you tried before with the Gangi
 I haven't looked at the old faithful recipe yet. I just thought the flavor might be close to Macks dough. Maybe the old faithfull recipe with a higher hydration and a thorough degassing upon opening the dough?
 Maybe I'll just try all the above at home and report back.





























Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2011, 11:00:58 AM
Norma,

Would you mind posting the latest Mack's cone dough formulation you used?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 11:21:28 AM
Norma,

I don't know that the cheese needed more tang as much as the sauce needed less. I'd like to try the same cheese with the walmart paste with the additions you tried before with the Gangi
 I haven't looked at the old faithful recipe yet. I just thought the flavor might be close to Macks dough. Maybe the old faithfull recipe with a higher hydration and a thorough degassing upon opening the dough?
 Maybe I'll just try all the above at home and report back.


Steve,

The "Old Faithful" dough I used only had 51% hydration and I think, but don't know that the EL-7 really helped that dough open okay.  You could try the "Old Faithful" dough with a higher hydration if you want to.  The "Old Faithful" dough uses vegetable oil also, but not in the higher amounst of the Mack's formula I used.

Hope you report back if you decide to give it a try.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 11:25:09 AM
Norma,

Would you mind posting the latest Mack's cone dough formulation you used?

Peter

Peter,

This is the formula I used for the Mackís attempt Tuesday at Reply 595 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg134713.html#msg134713

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2011, 06:49:14 PM
Norma and Steve (Ev),

There are a few Old Faithful dough recipes, and one that I dubbed "New Faithful", but original Old Faithful recipe appears at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html. There are both similarities between the original Old Faithful dough recipe and the Mack's clone dough recipes, as has been noted, but one of the major differences is the thickness factor. The original Old Faithful dough recipe has a thickness factor of 18/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.11693. That is considerably greater than the 0.08252 value that was used for the most recent Mack's clone pizza and should yield a crust that is thicker than a Mack's clone crust. The crust is also likely to be denser because of the reduced hydration and oil quantity.

It was also interesting to see that your baked pizza weight of 35.8 ounces was close to the 34.78 ounce value given by member PiedPiper in Reply 654 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg140870.html#msg140870. Maybe increasing the weight of the sauce and lowering the amount of cheese will still lead to a final baked weight of around 35 ounces.

As with any reverse engineering and cloning effort, of which I have conducted many, it is rarely easy to identify all of the ingredients used in the targeted pizza, including the brands and amounts of the ingredients, including cheeses. Mack's has been very successful in keeping the cheese identity a secret. Absent revelation by an employee at Mack's or by the cheese supplier, one would have to either get a job at Mack's (or one of the sister restaurants), or monitor deliveries by suppliers, or engage in dumpster diving. Even if the answer is ultimately learned, it might not be particularly helpful to our members who make pizzas at home if the cheese can only be obtained from a foodservice company or wholesaler (most of whom do not sell to individuals) or in quantities that are too large or too costly for most people who make pizzas at home. That is why I believe that the approach that you are taking to find suitable retail white cheddar cheeses (and sauce as well) is a sound one. It would be a pure gift if it turns out that the cheese that Mack's uses is also available at the retail level.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 07:27:36 PM
Norma and Steve (Ev),

There are a few Old Faithful dough recipes, and one that I dubbed "New Faithful", but original Old Faithful recipe appears at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,660.0.html. There are both similarities between the original Old Faithful dough recipe and the Mack's clone dough recipes, as has been noted, but one of the major differences is the thickness factor. The original Old Faithful dough recipe has a thickness factor of 18/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.11693. That is considerably greater than the 0.08252 value that was used for the most recent Mack's clone pizza and should yield a crust that is thicker than a Mack's clone crust. The crust is also likely to be denser because of the reduced hydration and oil quantity.

It was also interesting to see that your baked pizza weight of 35.8 ounces was close to the 34.78 ounce value given by member PiedPiper in Reply 654 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg140870.html#msg140870. Maybe increasing the weight of the sauce and lowering the amount of cheese will still lead to a final baked weight of around 35 ounces.

As with any reverse engineering and cloning effort, of which I have conducted many, it is rarely easy to identify all of the ingredients used in the targeted pizza, including the brands and amounts of the ingredients, including cheeses. Mack's has been very successful in keeping the cheese identity a secret. Absent revelation by an employee at Mack's or by the cheese supplier, one would have to either get a job at Mack's (or one of the sister restaurants), or monitor deliveries by suppliers, or engage in dumpster diving. Even if the answer is ultimately learned, it might not be particularly helpful to our members who make pizzas at home if the cheese can only be obtained from a foodservice company or wholesaler (most of whom do not sell to individuals) or in quantities that are too large or too costly for most people who make pizzas at home. That is why I believe that the approach that you are taking to find suitable retail white cheddar cheeses (and sauce as well) is a sound one. It would be a pure gift if it turns out that the cheese that Mack's uses is also available at the retail level.

Peter

Peter,

The ďOld FaithfulĒ formula you used in the link you provided does look a lot like a Mackís pizza.  I see you didnít have any problems opening the dough and posted it did have a soft and chewy crust.  Maybe if Steve wants to he could try your formula for a Mackís clone to see how that works out.  I can see there are many similarities between the original Old Faithful recipe and the Mackís clone recipes. Would KASL work out okay for the Old Faithful recipe or would you use bromated flour?

I might try another Mackís attempt on Tuesday.  Steve and I also thought at least we got close to the what PiedPiper posted in his weights.  Steve and I might try increasing the weight of the sauce and decreasing the amount of cheese if we attempt the pizza Tuesday.  If we do, I will try to measure the weight of the unbaked pizza.  I did buy some Walmart Great Value tomato paste today, so that should be another test of a common brand of tomato paste.  I know it would be a gift if we found some brand of white cheddar on the retail level that does taste like Mackís cheese, but I doubt if that is going to happen.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2011, 07:42:50 PM
The ďOld FaithfulĒ formula you used in the link you provided does look a lot like a Mackís pizza.  I see you didnít have any problems opening the dough and posted it did have a soft and chewy crust.  Maybe if Steve wants to he could try your formula for a Mackís clone to see how that works out.  I can see there are many similarities between the original Old Faithful recipe and the Mackís clone recipes. Would KASL work out okay for the Old Faithful recipe or would you use bromated flour?

Norma,

Since Big Dave was a commercial pizza operator, I would imagine that he used the types of flours typically sold to such operators. I would guess that he used a bromated high-gluten flour.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 07, 2011, 07:54:55 PM
Norma,

Since Big Dave was a commercial pizza operator, I would imagine that he used the types of flours typically sold to such operators. I would guess that he used a bromated high-gluten flour.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 07, 2011, 08:48:42 PM
  I know it would be a gift if we found some brand of white cheddar on the retail level that does taste like Mackís cheese, but I doubt if that is going to happen.

Norma

Someone should take his summer vacation  8) behind Mack's and wait for the cheese delivery to
come  and report back with pictures !!!   :-D


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on July 08, 2011, 07:54:50 AM
Someone should take his summer vacation  8) behind Mack's and wait for the cheese delivery to
come  and report back with pictures !!!   :-D


Louis

Louis,

 Thank you so much for volunteering to do this!  We'll all be anxiously awaiting your report!  :-D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 08, 2011, 09:16:57 AM
Louis,

 Thank you so much for volunteering to do this!  We'll all be anxiously awaiting your report!  :-D

I guess I got caught with my own joke!!   ;D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 08, 2011, 10:20:36 AM
Louis,

Far too many people have a "let the other guy do it" attitude, so it is indeed gratifying to see that you are volunteering. I believe that Norma has a fake blonde wig and sunglasses that she might lend you. Just don't forget to use your best falsetto voice if you end up talking to the cheese truck driver.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2011, 10:58:26 AM
Louis,

Far too many people have a "let the other guy do it" attitude, so it is indeed gratifying to see that you are volunteering. I believe that Norma has a fake blonde wig and sunglasses that she might lend you. Just don't forget to use your best falsetto voice if you end up talking to the cheese truck driver.

Peter

Louis and Peter,

I also know about ďlet the other guy do itĒ attitude.  I still have my fake blonde wig and big sunglasses if Louis wants to borrow them.  ;) I did take a picture of me in that get-up, but never posted it.  Lol,  Peter posting for Louis to use his best falsetto voice if he ends up talking to the cheese truck driver.  :-D  I might get to Mackís this summer, but I am getting worried about all my posts.  I think I need a new identity. 8) If I had the time I would watch for deliveries at Mackís.   

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 08, 2011, 06:44:55 PM
Louis,

Far too many people have a "let the other guy do it" attitude, so it is indeed gratifying to see that you are volunteering. I believe that Norma has a fake blonde wig and sunglasses that she might lend you. Just don't forget to use your best falsetto voice if you end up talking to the cheese truck driver.

Peter

Hey Peter!..if Norma has a wig and sunglasses like this .......I'm in !!!  ;D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 08, 2011, 11:56:56 PM
Louis,

If you didnít see these posts before, look at Reply 188 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97589.html#msg97589 and  Reply 196 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97621.html#msg97621

Your blonde wig and sunglasses are a lot better than mine!  ;D All you need now is the special agents badge.  Your post and picture sure gave me a good chuckle!  :-D Good luck!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 09, 2011, 09:03:39 AM
Louis,

If you didnít see these posts before, look at Reply 188 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97589.html#msg97589 and  Reply 196 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97621.html#msg97621

Your blonde wig and sunglasses are a lot better than mine!  ;D All you need now is the special agents badge.  Your post and picture sure gave me a good chuckle!  :-D Good luck!

Norma


Norma !!..  We both have the same taste for wigs and sunglasses !!  Hi! Hi!.. ;D

Keep us posted on your next attempt!!!


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: eiram21 on July 17, 2011, 12:43:30 AM
I just returned from a 1-week vacation in Ocean City, NJ. While there, I ate at Mack and Manco's (not to be confused with Mack's in Wildwood, NJ). Different cheese and different crusts.

I watched the piemen at Mack and Manco's open 2 dough balls at once by stacking them (one on top of another), pressing together, opening them, twirling in the air, and THEN peeling them apart when they were only millimeters thick!! Truly amazing.

I've heard a rumor that there is 7% lard in the dough. Not sure if this is a nasty rumor or the reason why the dough, after being stretched so incredibly thin, can be pulled apart when stacked on top of each other.

Thoughts??
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2011, 07:48:42 AM
I just returned from a 1-week vacation in Ocean City, NJ. While there, I ate at Mack and Manco's (not to be confused with Mack's in Wildwood, NJ). Different cheese and different crusts.

I watched the piemen at Mack and Manco's open 2 dough balls at once by stacking them (one on top of another), pressing together, opening them, twirling in the air, and THEN peeling them apart when they were only millimeters thick!! Truly amazing.

I've heard a rumor that there is 7% lard in the dough. Not sure if this is a nasty rumor or the reason why the dough, after being stretched so incredibly thin, can be pulled apart when stacked on top of each other.

Thoughts??

eiram21,

I also think that was truly amazing that the pieman did open two dough balls at once.  ;D Thanks for explaining how they did that.  I donít know about lard in the dough of Mackís or Mack and Mancos pizza.  Where did you hear that rumor from?  I have used lard (manteca and goya) lard in doughs, two different times, and I thought the lard gave the crust a better taste.  Maybe another member might comment on lard in the dough formulation.

ERASMO reported the same thing, that the one pieman was putting two dough balls together, then stretching them together, and then separating them into two skins, at Reply 129 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97186.html#msg97186
Peter then replied, he thinks he would have paid to watch that, at Reply 133 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97197.html#msg97197 and ERASMO replied again at Reply 134 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97198.html#msg97198 how they also stretched two skins at one time.

I believe Mack and Mancos do use the same sauce, cheese, and dough formulation as Mackís pizza.  These are some of the places we found out that the families of Mackís and Mack and Mancoís, are related, and where they first started making their pies. http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html  If you are interested you can click though the pages here to find out about Mackís pizza. http://www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksPizzaPg1.htm

I think other members would be interested in hearing what you thought of Mack and Mancos pizza, and if you had eaten their pizzas before.

Thanks for posting and helping this thread!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 17, 2011, 08:42:44 AM
Norma,

I, too, would be interested in where the 7% lard rumor came from. But, assuming for the moment that Mack's et al are using lard, one can make a direct weight-for-weight substitution of lard for oil in the dough formulations that have been posted on this thread since lard is a solid fat, unlike say, butter or margarine, both of which contain water that would have to be accounted for in the total forumula hydration. The negative on lard is that while it has no trans fats (the latest fat bogeyman) it does have a lot of saturated fat (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/483/2). However, Mack's et al, as small fry who operate below the radar, are under no legal duty to disclose the use of lard. Any high visibility company these days wouldn't dare use lard in their pizza doughs.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: eiram21 on July 17, 2011, 08:37:50 PM
Norma,

I, too, would be interested in where the 7% lard rumor came from. But, assuming for the moment that Mack's et al are using lard, one can make a direct weight-for-weight substitution of lard for oil in the dough formulations that have been posted on this thread since lard is a solid fat, unlike say, butter or margarine, both of which contain water that would have to be accounted for in the total forumula hydration. The negative on lard is that while it has no trans fats (the latest fat bogeyman) it does have a lot of saturated fat (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/483/2). However, Mack's et al, as small fry who operate below the radar, are under no legal duty to disclose the use of lard. Any high visibility company these days wouldn't dare use lard in their pizza doughs.

Peter

Hi Peter,
I really hesitated to post this "rumor". I can't name the source, but let me just say that one of the M&M's competitor's told me. This person said that a bitter "ex-employee" has been going around town telling all of their secrets! He also said there is a lot of sugar in their sauce. ??? It doesn't taste over-the-top sweet, but it is sweet.  I did wonder if this person was just spreading unfounded rumors....the M&M crust is not greasy whatsoever BUT the fact that the pieman can pull apart two separate pies after they have been stretched and twirled had me wondering...
I was sooooo close to pulling out my iphone and shooting a video of the M&M pieman who was spinning the 2 doughs at once, but I didn't want to embarrass him or make him nervous. It was sooo busy when I went. I will try my best to take a video when I go down again, hopefully next month. It was amazing! I had never seen this before - I'm guessing they only do this when they are super busy to try and keep up with demand.

Their pizza is sooo good. I'm just love it.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: eiram21 on July 17, 2011, 08:48:31 PM

I believe Mack and Mancos do use the same sauce, cheese, and dough formulation as Mackís pizza.  These are some of the places we found out that the families of Mackís and Mack and Mancoís, are related, and where they first started making their pies. http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html  If you are interested you can click though the pages here to find out about Mackís pizza. http://www.funchase.com/Images/Macks/MacksPizzaPg1.htm

Norma

Hi Norma,
We had Mack's (in Wildwood, NJ) the night after we had Mack and Manco's (in Ocean City, NJ) and in my opinion, it is somewhat similar in it's thickness and sauce, BUT I didn't think it was the same. Perhaps most importantly, I didn't taste cheddar in the Mack's pizza, but rather a more traditional cheese. Yes, I was aware that Macks and M&M's had similar beginnings, if not the same (sorry, didn't read the histroy yet) but I believe they have each evolved somewhat over the years. The rumor guy told me the Ocean City locations had "Manco" join them early on after a few years of doing biz. M&M is definitely my favorite of the two, and I think many would agree with me because the lines for each of the stores speaks for itself! Curious to know your thoughts if you try each of them this summer  :)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 17, 2011, 09:34:53 PM
eiram21,

Thanks for the feedback on the lard. As I noted a while back at Reply 71 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg139439/topicseen.html#msg139439, lard in a pizza dough can lead to a somewhat chewier crust when used for takeout/delivery but not when eaten in. I don't recall that anyone has singled out that crust characteristic for a Mack's et al pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2011, 10:16:34 PM
eiram21,

Thanks for your post about the lard in the dough and sugar in their sauce.  It still wonders me how easily the piemen open even one skin, but I saw about the same thing, when I visited Cesari's Pizza at Knoebelís a few days ago.  I believe the skill is learned after tossing all those pies.  I did take a video of that pieman opening a skin.  

I hope you will be able to take a video or some pictures, the next time you go to M&Mís.  It is interesting you didnít taste cheddar when you ate Mackís pizza.  

I donít think I ever have tasted M&M pizzas, or at least I didnít remember if I did.  If I get a chance to go to the shore this summer, I will try to get to M&M to try their pizzas in comparison to Mackís pizzas.  

Thanks for all your help!

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: eiram21 on July 17, 2011, 10:26:59 PM
eiram21,

Thanks for the feedback on the lard. As I noted a while back at Reply 71 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg139439/topicseen.html#msg139439, lard in a pizza dough can lead to a somewhat chewier crust when used for takeout/delivery but not when eaten in. I don't recall that anyone has singled out that crust characteristic for a Mack's et al pizza.

Peter

People are advised to order "well done crust" when ordering M&M's for home delivery because the crust does not hold up (soggy). I attribute this more to the fact that it is SO thin, almost cracker-like but not quite. Hard to say if it is chewy or not because it is so thin. Mmmmm...I could go for a piece. I think they are francishing now. Maybe we can open one as a group and be privy to their secrets!  :chef:
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 17, 2011, 10:44:06 PM
People are advised to order "well done crust" when ordering M&M's for home delivery because the crust does not hold up (soggy). I attribute this more to the fact that it is SO thin, almost cracker-like but not quite. Hard to say if it is chewy or not because it is so thin. Mmmmm...I could go for a piece. I think they are francishing now. Maybe we can open one as a group and be privy to their secrets!  :chef:

eiram21,

Thanks again for posting that people are advised to order ďwell done crustĒ for M&Mís home delivery.   :) That is also interesting, because the slices of pizza of Mackís we took back to where we were staying in Wildwood, and the pie my daughter brought back for me from Wildwood, on her last visit werenít soggy at all. They werenít ordered ďwell doneĒ.   It now makes me wonder if Mackís and M&Mís do use different formulas for their dough.  I think you are the first member that posted on the differences between Mackís pizza and M&Mís pizzas.  Did you think Mackís crust was almost cracker-like?  I didnít think Mackís crust was almost cracker-like.  You are making more curious to try M&Mís pizzas.

Your ideas of buying a franchise is good, but pizzerias are a lot of work, especially in the summer heat.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: eiram21 on July 18, 2011, 12:49:22 AM
eiram21,

Thanks again for posting that people are advised to order ďwell done crustĒ for M&Mís home delivery.   :) That is also interesting, because the slices of pizza of Mackís we took back to where we were staying in Wildwood, and the pie my daughter brought back for me from Wildwood, on her last visit werenít soggy at all. They werenít ordered ďwell doneĒ.   It now makes me wonder if Mackís and M&Mís do use different formulas for their dough.  I think you are the first member that posted on the differences between Mackís pizza and M&Mís pizzas.  Did you think Mackís crust was almost cracker-like?  I didnít think Mackís crust was almost cracker-like.  You are making more curious to try M&Mís pizzas.

Your ideas of buying a franchise is good, but pizzerias are a lot of work, especially in the summer heat.

Norma

Hi Norma,
Nope - I didn't think Mack's was cracker-like. It was more of a NY style pizza - would you agree?

I was just kidding about the pizzeria. I'd love to eat it daily but not necessarily mass produce it. It is a personal goal of mine to keep improving my pizza making skills.

My husband, who should have been a food critic, agreed that Mack's and Mack and Manco's do not produce the same pizza. At least they don't at this time....would be interested to hear from others. Try Mack and Manco's! I think you'll really like it!

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2011, 08:39:44 AM
Hi Norma,
Nope - I didn't think Mack's was cracker-like. It was more of a NY style pizza - would you agree?

I was just kidding about the pizzeria. I'd love to eat it daily but not necessarily mass produce it. It is a personal goal of mine to keep improving my pizza making skills.

My husband, who should have been a food critic, agreed that Mack's and Mack and Manco's do not produce the same pizza. At least they don't at this time....would be interested to hear from others. Try Mack and Manco's! I think you'll really like it!



eiram21.

I agree with you that Mackís pizza is NY style.  I was only kidding about franchising any kind of pizzeria also.  :-D I am way too old to be making pizza everyday, but I am also trying to improve my pizza making skills, just like you are.  It is a fun adventure.

I am glad you posted that Mackís and Mack and Mancoís arenít the same pizza.  This was the first time I heard that.  It is always great to have other members opinions, and you were the first member to try both pizzas, and report back.  ;D

Thanks again!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2011, 08:42:22 AM
I was looking into more about Mackís and Mackís and Mancoís.  This is some of what I found.

Another story about Duke Mack from, Bill Kelley http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2009/09/duke-mack-rip.html who wrote part of the article that is on the below link.  (1994 article in the Sandpaper by: Bill Kelly titled ĎThe Story of Pizzaí) http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html  Also on Bill Kelley blog he says that working at Mack and Mancos was certainly a major part of the life of anyone who worked there.  Bill Kelley also mentions two people from Lancaster, Pa. who worked at Mack and Mancos:  Duncan and Scott MacRae. http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2009/10/yesterdays-five-points-columbia-sc_15.html Duncan and Scott MacRae, and Bill Kelley must have all worked at Mack and Mancos years ago.http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2011/07/macks-mancos-pizza-ocean-city-boardwalk.html  I would believe Bill Kelly could tell us more about Mackís and Mack and Mancos if he would be willing to.  It looks like Bill Kelley is also a detective from what his profile reads on his blog.  More about Bill Kelley  http://jerseyshorenightbeat.blogspot.com/2011/06/bill-kelly-interview-goingtotheshorecom.html and http://athepoint.blogspot.com/2008/02/bayshores-waterfront-sails-to-inlet.html  http://billsbooksblog.blogspot.com/  

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 18, 2011, 09:48:13 PM
I was looking into more about Mackís and Mackís and Mancoís.  This is some of what I found.

Another story about Duke Mack from, Bill Kelley http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2009/09/duke-mack-rip.html who wrote part of the article that is on the below link.  (1994 article in the Sandpaper by: Bill Kelly titled ĎThe Story of Pizzaí) http://www.mackandmancos.com/aboutus.html  Also on Bill Kelley blog he says that working at Mack and Mancos was certainly a major part of the life of anyone who worked there.  Bill Kelley also mentions two people from Lancaster, Pa. who worked at Mack and Mancos:  Duncan and Scott MacRae. http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2009/10/yesterdays-five-points-columbia-sc_15.html Duncan and Scott MacRae, and Bill Kelley must have all worked at Mack and Mancos years ago.http://oceancitydays.blogspot.com/2011/07/macks-mancos-pizza-ocean-city-boardwalk.html  I would believe Bill Kelly could tell us more about Mackís and Mack and Mancos if he would be willing to.  It looks like Bill Kelley is also a detective from what his profile reads on his blog.  More about Bill Kelley  http://jerseyshorenightbeat.blogspot.com/2011/06/bill-kelly-interview-goingtotheshorecom.html and http://athepoint.blogspot.com/2008/02/bayshores-waterfront-sails-to-inlet.html  http://billsbooksblog.blogspot.com/  

Norma

Norma!....you're the Indiana Jones of NJ Pizza !  ;D

One day !......the mystery will be solved !!  :'(  and we will all celebrate with a nice  :pizza: ;D

And then ,you will have to find us another mystery  :-D

Forgot to say that it's all because of dscoleri's question that we're all going crazy!  :P


Louis  8)
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 18, 2011, 10:50:12 PM
Norma!....you're the Indiana Jones of NJ Pizza !  ;D

One day !......the mystery will be solved !!  :'(  and we will all celebrate with a nice  :pizza: ;D

And then ,you will have to find us another mystery  :-D

Forgot to say that it's all because of dscoleri's question that we're all going crazy!  :P


Louis  8)

Louis,

Lol, the Indiana Jones of boardwalk pizza.  :-D I donít know if the mystery of Mackís or Mack and Mancos pizza will ever be solved, but I did have some emails with a man today that has worked at one of pizzerias on this thread.  From what he remembers, the cheese does come in 40lb. blocks, that was delivered every few weeks.  The cheese also does have the stamp of Wisconsin on it.  This man did say the cheese was not always consistent though, and they complained to the cheese company who tried to keep it straight.  He was also pretty sure the ingredients for both pizzerias do come from the same place.  I donít know if times have changed since this man worked at the pizzerias or not.  If the cheddar does come only in 40 lb. blocks, that lets me out in trying it.  

You are right that dscoleri's started this thread.  I wonder what he thinks now, if he reads this thread. :-\

Thanks for the humor!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on July 19, 2011, 09:47:54 AM
You are right that dscoleri's started this thread.  I wonder what he thinks now, if he reads this thread. :-\

Norma,

dscoleri was online this past April 14. I happened to see him online and he noted this thread and spent some time on it. However, for some reason, he chose not to post on what had transpired since he first posted. Maybe he wasn't up to reading over 600 posts over 31 pages (at the time). I have found that it is quite common for members to join the forum looking for help on clones and then proceed to disappear when they don't get immediate answers or solutions or they come too slowly. As you know, there aren't a lot of people who will read long threads and try to piece things together. They only want the punchline--which usually is the latest and best recipe recited in simple terms that they can understand.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 19, 2011, 10:09:37 AM
Norma,

dscoleri was online this past April 14. I happened to see him online and he noted this thread and spent some time on it. However, for some reason, he chose not to post on what had transpired since he first posted. Maybe he wasn't up to reading over 600 posts over 31 pages (at the time). I have found that it is quite common for members to join the forum looking for help on clones and then proceed to disappear when they don't get immediate answers or solutions or they come too slowly. As you know, there aren't a lot of people who will read long threads and try to piece things together. They only want the punchline--which usually is the latest and best recipe recited in simple terms that they can understand.

Peter


Well Peter !   you know what they say!...........Patience is a vertue!!


Norma!....for the 40 pounds cheese order  ,dont you have any mice at
home that you want to get rid of ??


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 19, 2011, 09:29:24 PM
Norma,

dscoleri was online this past April 14. I happened to see him online and he noted this thread and spent some time on it. However, for some reason, he chose not to post on what had transpired since he first posted. Maybe he wasn't up to reading over 600 posts over 31 pages (at the time). I have found that it is quite common for members to join the forum looking for help on clones and then proceed to disappear when they don't get immediate answers or solutions or they come too slowly. As you know, there aren't a lot of people who will read long threads and try to piece things together. They only want the punchline--which usually is the latest and best recipe recited in simple terms that they can understand.

Peter

Peter,

Thanks for telling me dscoleri was online and looking at this thread.  I wonder why he didnít post anything, or if he might not be interested.  I know this thread is a very long one, but if dscoleri or anyone else wants to know what we have done so far, or what other members have contributed, it is easy to link them to the posts. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 19, 2011, 09:33:57 PM


Norma!....for the 40 pounds cheese order  ,dont you have any mouses at
home that you want to get rid of ??


Louis


Louis,

I still am not sure if the white cheddar does come in 40 lb. blocks, or even where the cheese does come from. 

Cheddar cheese is going up in price all the time.  My distributor just delivered me cheese today and all cheeses are going up in price.  Do you think I would give the extra cheese to mice, even if we found out the exact brand?   :-D 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on July 19, 2011, 09:40:46 PM
Louis,

I still am not sure if the white cheddar does come in 40 lb. blocks, or even where the cheese does come from. 

Cheddar cheese is going up in price all the time.  My distributor just delivered me cheese today and all cheeses are going up in price.  Do you think I would give the extra cheese to mice, even if we found out the exact brand?   :-D 

Norma

I love your sense of humor Indiana Norma !! !! :D

Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Meatballs on July 21, 2011, 04:43:12 PM
Norma,

Found the cheese pictured below at a local, independent market today.  I'll be making crust as soon as I finish this.  Its a mozzarella and cheddar blend intended as pizza cheese.  The ingredients list "cheddar cheese" and "part skim mozzarella".  The cheddar is anato colored.  The company is based in Chicago and the cheese is listed from Wisconson. 

Boardwalk pizza this weekend........  Even the wife is excited......

Ron

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 21, 2011, 07:29:22 PM
Norma,

Found the cheese pictured below at a local, independent market today.  I'll be making crust as soon as I finish this.  Its a mozzarella and cheddar blend intended as pizza cheese.  The ingredients list "cheddar cheese" and "part skim mozzarella".  The cheddar is anato colored.  The company is based in Chicago and the cheese is listed from Wisconson.  

Boardwalk pizza this weekend........  Even the wife is excited......

Ron



Ron,

Glad to hear you are making boardwalk pizza again this weekend!  Of course, it is even better if you wife is excited.  :) The cheddar and part skim mozzarella should work well in a boardwalk pizza.  I made a different kind of pizza this past Tuesday and had used sharp cheddar, feta, and two kinds of mozzarella.  At least I thought there was something in those cheeses I used that did remind me of Mackís pizza.  My guess it was the sharp white cheddar with the combination of mozzarellas.  I have to try the sharp white cheddar in future weeks.  

There are many cheddar cheeses that do come from Wisconsin.  I had been looking on the web, for different cheddar cheeses, that had the stamp of Wisconsin on them and had found some, but I donít have access to those cheddar cheeses.  They are from distributors.  Even Foremost Farms does carry 40 lb. blocks of white cheddar, but nothing smaller.  I had called them awhile ago, and they couldnít send me any samples to try because they only had them in the 40 lb. blocks, but they did send me a sample bag of provolone and mozzarella.  

If you have time to take some pictures of your boardwalk pie, that would be great.  If not, just let us know how it turned out if you have time.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 09:23:43 AM
I saw this article about Mack and Mancoís on Slice yesterday. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/07/daily-slice-mack-manco-ocean-city-new-jersey.html   By the picture that was posted, and the way Caroline Russock explained how Mack and Mancoís pizza tasted, it still makes me wonder if Mackís and Mack and Mancoís use exactly the same formula for their pies.  The picture posted of the slice, doesnít look like the pies or slices I have tasted at Mackís pizza.  Caroline Russock posted stringy mozzarella is used in Mack and Mancoís pizza.  I wonder if she asked an employee whether the cheese is cheddar, or if she just assumed the cheese was mozzarella.  The cheese at Mackís pizza does melt like mozzarella and for years I also thought the cheese on Mackís pizza was a different kind of mozzarella.  The photo of the crust does look different than the slices of crust I and other members have posted.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PiedPiper on July 27, 2011, 09:38:54 AM
I saw this article about Mack and Manco?s on Slice yesterday. http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/07/daily-slice-mack-manco-ocean-city-new-jersey.html   By the picture that was posted, and the way Caroline Russock explained how Mack and Manco?s pizza tasted, it still makes me wonder if Mack?s and Mack and Manco?s use exactly the same formula for their pies.  The picture posted of the slice, doesn?t look like the pies or slices I have tasted at Mack?s pizza.  Caroline Russock posted stringy mozzarella is used in Mack and Manco?s pizza.  I wonder if she asked an employee whether the cheese is cheddar, or if she just assumed the cheese was mozzarella.  The cheese at Mack?s pizza does melt like mozzarella and for years I also thought the cheese on Mack?s pizza was a different kind of mozzarella.  The photo of the crust does look different than the slices of crust I and other members have posted.

Norma

Slice does look way different,  almost soupy with all the extra sauce.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on July 27, 2011, 10:20:14 AM
Slice does look way different,  almost soupy with all the extra sauce.

PiedPiper,

I agree the slice does look different.  It does look like a lot of sauce was applied.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 11, 2011, 10:30:09 AM
I've been away for a while but happy 2 year anniversary for this thread!  :chef:
Still very interested in the progress but I have some catching up to do....LOL.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2011, 12:44:19 PM
I've been away for a while but happy 2 year anniversary for this thread!  :chef:
Still very interested in the progress but I have some catching up to do....LOL.


njbruce ,

Glad to see you back on the forum!  :) I didnít realize this thread was two years old.  A lot of members have contributed to this thread, and am sure they still will. 

I had thought I might get to Mackís this summer, but my mother is getting older and I need to be around home to be her caretaker.  Hopefully someday I will get to Mackís or Mack & Mancos again.  If I canít, hopefully someone else will take over this thread.

If you need any help in finding out something you donít already know, let me know and I probably can link you to what you want.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 11, 2011, 07:52:24 PM
hey norma!  I've been following this thread for some time now.  Once I get laid off in the fall I'm gonna try to do this.  I found a post typing Grotto Pizza recipe and here's what I found

"I used to work at a pizza place that had the exact same recipe. I'm faily sure it was a coincidence, Here's what I can tell you. The dough is a regular fresh dough. the cheese is white colby. The sauce is made up of Conte pizza sauce,but since I never made it, i don't know what amouts of spices went in. I know the following were added, red pepper, garlic powder, rosemary, oregano, water, sugar and salt.

You roll out the dough. Heat the over to about 400. Put the cheese on first! Then add the sauce. Run a stripe of sauce around the edge, then put stripes across the middle about 1.5 inches apart. Bake it till it's glden and you're set.

Trust me, i worked at this place for 5 years, and when people realized that it was identical to Grotto, the business really took off."

White Colby???  That's Interesting. 

Didn't know if you ever came across this but here is the link...http://www.recipelink.com/mf/14/385

Let me know what you think about the cheese and the sauce ingredients.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 11, 2011, 08:52:54 PM
hey norma!  I've been following this thread for some time now.  Once I get laid off in the fall I'm gonna try to do this.  I found a post typing Grotto Pizza recipe and here's what I found

"I used to work at a pizza place that had the exact same recipe. I'm faily sure it was a coincidence, Here's what I can tell you. The dough is a regular fresh dough. the cheese is white colby. The sauce is made up of Conte pizza sauce,but since I never made it, i don't know what amouts of spices went in. I know the following were added, red pepper, garlic powder, rosemary, oregano, water, sugar and salt.

You roll out the dough. Heat the over to about 400. Put the cheese on first! Then add the sauce. Run a stripe of sauce around the edge, then put stripes across the middle about 1.5 inches apart. Bake it till it's glden and you're set.

Trust me, i worked at this place for 5 years, and when people realized that it was identical to Grotto, the business really took off."

White Colby???  That's Interesting. 

Didn't know if you ever came across this but here is the link...http://www.recipelink.com/mf/14/385

Let me know what you think about the cheese and the sauce ingredients.



expo7290,

Glad to hear you are interested in this thread!   :)

The White Colby cheese does sound interesting, and I think probably would make a great pizza cheese.  I am not sure even Grottoís uses White Colby cheese though.  I had read though posts and links on Grottoís and am not certain, but think they do use some type of mozzarella on their pizzas.  I even forgot where I read those posts or saw those links.

I never saw the link you posted.  I never tasted Grottoís pizza, that I can remember, so I donít know what their sauce or cheese really tastes like, but Grottoís pies do look very similar to Mackís or Mack & Mancos pizzas. 

I hope when you are laid off you can try the recipe in the link you provided and see if it tastes like a Mackís or Mack & Mancos pizza.  Did you ever eat a Mackís or Mack & Mancos pizza? 

I do have access to White Colby cheese.  I donít think I tried White Colby before on a Mackís attempt. Maybe you would be interested in BOARDWALKERíS post at Reply 546 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg121886.html#msg121886
He does mention his sauce is dead on, in his post.

Thanks for helping this thread!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 12, 2011, 07:31:07 PM
I believe the two are similar in style (cheese, then sauce), but flavor is probably different.  I've been to OCMD and passed right by M&M's, but never stopped in.  I like Grotto, and there is a place not too far from me in Wilkes-Barre called Norm's that makes NJ boardwalk style.  Their 16" pies are only $7.25!!  And I only get plain...no toppings.  I get 3 every time I go and eat it for a week straight.  My wife isn't a fan of the style.  She's a NY style girl. 

Thanks for the link to the post. 

I will try the "heavy hand" method.  Is that one small can of paste and 3 waters?

I'll be in touch as much as possible.  You rock norma!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 12, 2011, 09:49:56 PM
I believe the two are similar in style (cheese, then sauce), but flavor is probably different.  I've been to OCMD and passed right by M&M's, but never stopped in.  I like Grotto, and there is a place not too far from me in Wilkes-Barre called Norm's that makes NJ boardwalk style.  Their 16" pies are only $7.25!!  And I only get plain...no toppings.  I get 3 every time I go and eat it for a week straight.  My wife isn't a fan of the style.  She's a NY style girl.  

Thanks for the link to the post.  

I will try the "heavy hand" method.  Is that one small can of paste and 3 waters?

I'll be in touch as much as possible.  You rock norma!

expo7290,

I believe, but am not sure, that Mack & Mancos, Mackís and Grottoís are similar, but Grottoís seems to be a little different. Since I have never tasted Grottoís in comparison to a Mackís pizza, I am not sure.  I did have a few customers that tasted a couple of my attempts on a Mackís clone and they thought the slices tasted like Grottoís.  I am not saying my Mackís attempts tasted like Grottoís, because I sure donít know.  :-D

Glad to hear you can purchase a boardwalk style at Normís.  

The tomato paste just has to be thinned with water until the consistency looks right.  I never measured how much water I used with other pastes or even with the real Gangi sauce.

Best of luck!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 20, 2011, 05:47:14 PM
OK, I did it.  My first round is over.  The sauce was AWESOME!  The cheese was good and the crust was equally good. 

Overall, I give my first attempt a 7.

Norma, how long of a ferment time do you give your dough?  I cold fermented overnight and brought it out, punched it down and let it rise @ room temp for about another 6. 

I used straight GIANT brand white Colby.

Next time I may use a Colby cheddar blend.  The cheese was a little lacking in flavor, but that could just be the brand I used.

The sauce was GIANT brand paste.  1 and 1/2 cans water, 2-3 shakes basil, a palmful of oregano and a generous pinch of black pepper...that's it.

Next attempt, I'll take pictures.

Thanks for this amazing thread and I'll start experimenting with combinations too.  I'm in this for the long haul now.  Getting laid off soon and going to be making this a LOT more frequently in a month or so.

Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 20, 2011, 08:16:44 PM
OK, I did it.  My first round is over.  The sauce was AWESOME!  The cheese was good and the crust was equally good. 

Overall, I give my first attempt a 7.

Norma, how long of a ferment time do you give your dough?  I cold fermented overnight and brought it out, punched it down and let it rise @ room temp for about another 6. 

I used straight GIANT brand white Colby.

Next time I may use a Colby cheddar blend.  The cheese was a little lacking in flavor, but that could just be the brand I used.

The sauce was GIANT brand paste.  1 and 1/2 cans water, 2-3 shakes basil, a palmful of oregano and a generous pinch of black pepper...that's it.

Next attempt, I'll take pictures.

Thanks for this amazing thread and I'll start experimenting with combinations too.  I'm in this for the long haul now.  Getting laid off soon and going to be making this a LOT more frequently in a month or so.



expo7290

Glad you got started on your journey with a Mackís or Mack & Mancos pizza.  ;D I am happy your sauce, cheese and crust turned out well!

To answer your question about how long I cold ferment my dough it is usually about a day.  I havenít had to punch down any of my doughs.  Do you know what temperature your final mix was?  You probably achieved a better flavor in the crust with your method. 

Interesting next time you will try a mix of Colby and cheddar.  Steve purchased some Colby last week and is going to try it on a pizza (but probably not a Mackís attempt) sometime in the near future, to just see how it tastes on a baked pizza.

Sounds like you did really like your sauce combination.  That will help other members if they also want to try to make a sauce for their attempt.

I am glad you are also helping on this thread, and are in it for the long haul. Probably in the next few weeks, Iíll make another attempt.

I would really like to see your pictures, for your next attempt, if you can post them.

Thanks for reporting on your attempt!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 20, 2011, 08:55:23 PM
Norma,

  the dough had a light, crispy texture to it, but a little on the tough side.  The flavor was very good. 

  I mixed with my Kitchen Aid with the paddle for a minute, let it autolyse for 5 minutes, then put on the hook.

 Not sure what the final temp was, but my water was 80 degrees and I only mixed for 5 minutes.  It was tough stretching @ first (had a couple of holes) then after a brief pause, it stretched well.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 20, 2011, 09:49:25 PM
Norma,

  the dough had a light, crispy texture to it, but a little on the tough side.  The flavor was very good. 

  I mixed with my Kitchen Aid with the paddle for a minute, let it autolyse for 5 minutes, then put on the hook.

 Not sure what the final temp was, but my water was 80 degrees and I only mixed for 5 minutes.  It was tough stretching @ first (had a couple of holes) then after a brief pause, it stretched well.

expo7290 ,

I am not sure what your final dough temperature was either, but if your water temperature was 80 degrees F, you final dough temperature might have been a little higher than it should have been, but I am not sure.  Usually my dough doesnít rise as much as yours in trying a Mackís attempt.  Usually I only let the dough warm-up for about 1 to Ĺ hrs., all depending on the ambient temperatures where I am letting it warm-up. 

Since you did punch the dough down, you probably made the right decision to let the dough sit out for 6 hrs.  Did you do a reball after you punched the dough down or you use it the way it was?

I am not sure how to tell you to try the same dough again.  What amount of yeast did you use?  I also wanted to ask you what kind of flour did you use?

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 21, 2011, 08:12:05 AM
Norma, I used bread flour and the exact amount of yeast in your favorite Mack's attempt.  I did double the recipe also.  I did not reball. 

The reason I used 80 dgree water is because I have a friend in the business and he said that IDY doesn't activate until 80.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2011, 09:02:55 AM
Norma, I used bread flour and the exact amount of yeast in your favorite Mack's attempt.  I did double the recipe also.  I did not reball. 

The reason I used 80 dgree water is because I have a friend in the business and he said that IDY doesn't activate until 80.

expo7290,

I donít usually use 80 degree water to activate my IDY.  I normally just put the IDY right in with the flour when mixing.   ADY does need a water temperature of about 100 degrees to activate it.  I try to strive for a final dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F, although other members and I have used different final dough temperatures, if they wanted longer fermentation times.  Usually dough will ferment faster, if your final dough temperature is too high. 

In the glossary, here on the forum, it tells what IDY is and how to use it. http://www.pizzamaking.com/pizza_glossary.html#I

Hope this helps some.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on August 21, 2011, 11:42:28 AM
Is red pepper also called Paprika ?


Louis
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on August 21, 2011, 12:13:20 PM
The reason I used 80 dgree water is because I have a friend in the business and he said that IDY doesn't activate until 80.

expo7290,

Your friend may have been thinking of finished dough temperature rather than water temperature. So long as the combination of room temperature, water temperature, flour temperature, mixer friction factor and mixer type/speed/duration (which are related to the dough batch size) produces a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F in a home application, you should be fine. You don't have to use water temperature of 80 degrees F to do that. In fact, if you do use such a water temperature in a typical summertiime home setting, where room temperatures can already be high on the high side, your finished dough temperature is very likely to be over the desired finished dough temperature mentioned above and your dough will ferment faster and have a shortened window of usability. If you want to read more on this subject, see the article by Tom Lehmann at http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml.

I assume that you did not rehydrate the IDY directly in the warm water. IDY was designed to be used dry in dough recipes. The only time that you would want to rehydrate IDY directly in warm water is when the knead time is very short, typically below about four minutes or so. Otherwise, the IDY might not be uniformly distributed throughout the dough.

Peter

EDIT (1/25/13): Since the link to the above Lehmann article is no longer operative, see the Wayback Machine link to the same article at http://web.archive.org/web/20070502014430/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2003spring/tom_lehmann.shtml
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2011, 12:39:04 PM
Is red pepper also called Paprika ?


Louis

Louis,


Paprika is made from different kinds of peppers.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paprika

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artpaprika.html

If you mean other kinds of red peppers, in my opinion, there are many kinds of tastes and heat in different red peppers.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on August 21, 2011, 12:48:32 PM
Louis,


Paprika is made from different kinds of peppers.
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paprika

http://www.foodreference.com/html/artpaprika.html

If you mean other kinds of red peppers, in my opinion, there are many kinds of tastes and heat in different red peppers.

Thank's Norma!

when refering above about red pepper ,what is it exactly ,is it red dried chili pepper seeds or something else?


Louis

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 21, 2011, 06:48:20 PM


Louis,

Did you mean crushed red peppers, like is used in some pizza sauces?  If that is what you want to know about, this is what crushed red pepper are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crushed_red_pepper


Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 21, 2011, 09:14:06 PM
Thanks for the info Pete.  I did not rehydrate the IDY.  I just threw it in with the rest of the ingredients and the 80 degree water.  Perhaps the water temp along with the legthy ferment time was the reason my dough was a little tough to stretch at first and the crust was a little tough (not much) to chew.

I will strive for that desired temperature range on the next attempt.  i appreciate the constructive criticism.

I just did a NY style dough today and had an 83.5 with 78 degree water.  Only 3 hour ferment, and boy was it elastic.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Zeppi on August 21, 2011, 09:50:46 PM
Louis,

Did you mean crushed red peppers, like is used in some pizza sauces?  If that is what you want to know about, this is what crushed red pepper are. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crushed_red_pepper


Norma

Finally got it !...........thank's!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on August 22, 2011, 01:07:27 PM
Grotto Pizza cheese is mild cheddar..  I am from the Wilkes Barre area of Pennsylvania where Dominick Pulieri learned his pizza making skill..  See Grotto history: http://grottopizza.com/history/
In my quest to duplicate another style of pizza in this area, I was exposed to this type of cheese..  I'm sure various companies produce this same style, but the one I get and use is Land O'Lakes cheddar cheese in 40lb blocks.  While I have no need for 40lb blocks, a local business sells 5lb blocks..  I am not claiming to have the Grotto secret, I would bet this is the type of cheese you are looking for..
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 22, 2011, 05:26:51 PM
Grotto Pizza cheese is mild cheddar..  I am from the Wilkes Barre area of Pennsylvania where Dominick Pulieri learned his pizza making skill..  See Grotto history: http://grottopizza.com/history/
In my quest to duplicate another style of pizza in this area, I was exposed to this type of cheese..  I'm sure various companies produce this same style, but the one I get and use is Land O'Lakes cheddar cheese in 40lb blocks.  While I have no need for 40lb blocks, a local business sells 5lb blocks..  I am not claiming to have the Grotto secret, I would bet this is the type of cheese you are looking for..

NepaBill ,

Thanks for your help in this thread and providing the link about Grottoís history!  :) It is interesting that you think Land Oí Lakes cheddar tastes like the cheddar Grottoís uses.  I know my local store carries Land Oí Lakes white American, but not sure about the cheddar. I will look the next time I go to my local store.  The Land Oí Lakes cheddar might be what other members and I are looking for. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 22, 2011, 06:39:26 PM
NepaBill,

I have only come across LOL sharp and extra sharp white cheddar.  Is that a "restaurant only" product?  I was just on their website and they have sharp american and sharp cheddar, but no mild cheddar.

Thank you for the information.  I am from Hazleton (don't hold it against me) and come to W-B for pizza a lot.  

BTW, what style were you trying to duplicate?  Old Forge?
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on August 23, 2011, 05:12:02 AM
The Land O'Lakes cheese is not the kind found in grocery stores..  You can find at restaurant supply stores like..  Sysco, MaineSource....etc.  This type of cheese has no sharpness..   Expo you can get the cheese at City Mager in Wilkes Barre.  They will sell 5lb blocks..  Their spices are also cheap and fresh..
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on August 23, 2011, 07:49:29 AM
Sorry Expo..  I forgot to answer your question..  I was duplicating what we in this area refer to as  "Deep Fried" pizza..  (Pizza L'oven, Pizza Perfect, Victory Pig styles of pizza.) Note: No deep fryer is used when making this style LOL.. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on August 23, 2011, 07:23:12 PM
I enjoy Victory Pig pizza (only one I've been to).  I again thank you for hooking me up with some valuable information.

I owe you one.

Norma, I owe you many!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on August 24, 2011, 09:49:57 AM
Having lived in Wildwood and it's vicinity since the late 60's, i remember and old Mack's employee referring to the cheese as "butter cheddar".
Hmmm....this Land O' lakes lead may have some substance to it.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 24, 2011, 10:42:25 AM
Having lived in Wildwood and it's vicinity since the late 60's, i remember and old Mack's employee referring to the cheese as "butter cheddar".
Hmmm....this Land O' lakes lead may have some substance to it.

BOARDWALKER,

You are right, the Land O' Lakes cheddar might have some merit.  I asked the manager of one big deli place at market yesterday if they carry Land O' Lakes cheddar in any of their stores.  He said no, they only carry the Land O' Lakes American cheese.  I will check other places.  Maybe a member can find some, and if they have tried a Mack's or Mack's and Mancos pizza, can report back.  I will keep looking.

Thanks so much for posting about the old Mack's employee that referred to their cheese as "butter cheddar"!  :)

Another man I talked to yesterday, said a pizza shop in Lancaster, is using Vermont cheddar and mozzarella as their blend of cheeses for their pizzeria.  He said he is a friend and hangs out at his pizzeria all the time.  He said that the pizzeria operator does purchase the Vermont cheddar in 40 lb. blocks.  He said he purchases the Vermont cheddar from another deli stand at market. I didn't have time to go to the other deli stand yesterday, but will next week, to see if they carry smaller amounts of the Vermont cheddar so I can taste it, or maybe try it on a Mack's attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on August 24, 2011, 12:35:54 PM
If anyone would like more info on the cheese I mentioned follow the links below..  Please note, even though Land O lakes calls this cheese "yellow", it really isn't yellow in color at all..  This cheddar is available in "medium" (3-6 months aged) and "mild" (1-3 months aged)..  I am almost sure they have a sharp, but didn't see a listing for it.  Mild is the only one I have used.. There are probably numerous other companies that make this mild type of cheddar.  The only other company I could locate was a brand called Great Lakes Cheese.. I never had the opportunity to try their products.

Land O Lakes Mild:
http://www.landolakesfoodservice.com/products/viewproductsku.aspx?s=40415

Land O Lakes Medium:
http://www.landolakesfoodservice.com/products/viewproductsku.aspx?s=40430

Great Lake Cheese:
http://www.greatlakescheese.com/fs_natural_cheese.aspx
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: jkb on August 26, 2011, 06:15:35 AM
We stopped by Wildwood on our way home from Cape May and had slice at Mack's yesterday.  I've been home for 9 hours and I'm already thinking of making reservations for next year.  In the meantime, I think I'll read this thread and start mixing some dough...
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 26, 2011, 08:19:41 AM
We stopped by Wildwood on our way home from Cape May and had slice at Mack's yesterday.  I've been home for 9 hours and I'm already thinking of making reservations for next year.  In the meantime, I think I'll read this thread and start mixing some dough...

jkb,

I am glad you enjoyed Mack's pizza.  If you need help in finding anything in this thread, since it is long, let me know. Maybe I can help you locate what you are looking for.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: njbruce on August 27, 2011, 02:28:24 AM
From the Philadelphia Inquirer, an excerpt awaiting hurricane Irene:

""You have to go home," said Steve Kelly of Maple Glen, standing outside a boarded-up Mack & Manco's on the Ocean City boardwalk. "The island's empty at the north end. There's nobody there."

Kelly was waiting until Saturday morning to leave and, since he had a two-week rental, was hoping he could return after Irene.

"We got kicked off the beach a couple hours ago, and now we're just wandering the boardwalk," he said."

You folks in Jersey and PA, be safe!

Bruce
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 12:01:47 PM
I called my distributor Hometown Provisions, Inc. http://hometownprovisions.net/
 this morning to purchase some items for tomorrow.  In the course of talking to the owner, I asked him what kind of white cheddar they sell in 40 lb. blocks.  He said most pizza shops buy the A.M.P.I. brand of white cheddar in 40 lb. blocks, to mix in with their blends of cheeses. http://trade.eatwisconsincheese.com/retail/wi_cheese_company_search/companydetail.aspx?companyid=230&companyinfoid=141
I asked the owner if the cheddar cheese is mild tasting, oily, buttery, and does have the stamp of Wisconsin on the label.  He said the package on 40 lb. block doesnít have any name on the 40 lb. block, only the stamp of Wisconsin.  I told the owner, that I might buy a 40 lb. block to try next week.  I wonder if this cheddar is the kind Mackís is using.  I could also use this cheddar on my Greek-style pies and mix some with the blend of mozzarella I am using now.

I think that the white cheddar, that the owner of Hometown Provisions was talking about is on page 10 item # 774105 at:  http://hometownprovisions.net/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/2011-HometownProvisions_lores.pdf


Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on August 29, 2011, 01:09:16 PM
I'd be happy to chip in for that, Norma.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 29, 2011, 06:15:11 PM
I'd be happy to chip in for that, Norma.

Steve,

Thanks so much for saying you would chip in for some of the 40 lb. block.  :) I know you like to try different cheddars on your Greek pies and also the Mack's clones you have attempted.  I will have to make a decision by Friday, if I want the 40 lb. block for Tuesday.  The block is 2.66 a lb.

Maybe scott r will see this post and might be able to tell us what this kind of cheddar tastes like baked on a pie.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott r on August 31, 2011, 12:38:09 PM
Norma, I haven't tried this brand, but I have a very strong feeling that it is the cheese used at macs.   My friend that worked there told me that the cheese was stamped with the state of wisconsin.   Im sure there aren't many white cheddar cheeses with this stamp that are sold in your area (the same general area as macs).   Chances are that this is the only cheese with this unusual packaging.    When I pressed him hard my friend said that he was pretty sure thats all that was on the cheese label, hence his difficulty coming up with the brand name.     The other bonus is that cheddar has a nice long shelf live when compared to mozzarella.   It might take a while to get through it, but if properly stored it should last long enough that you won't have to throw any away.     
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on August 31, 2011, 03:22:24 PM
Norma, I haven't tried this brand, but I have a very strong feeling that it is the cheese used at macs.   My friend that worked there told me that the cheese was stamped with the state of wisconsin.   Im sure there aren't many white cheddar cheeses with this stamp that are sold in your area (the same general area as macs).   Chances are that this is the only cheese with this unusual packaging.    When I pressed him hard my friend said that he was pretty sure thats all that was on the cheese label, hence his difficulty coming up with the brand name.     The other bonus is that cheddar has a nice long shelf live when compared to mozzarella.   It might take a while to get through it, but if properly stored it should last long enough that you won't have to throw any away.     

Scott,

Thanks for posting you think the brand of cheese, (my distributor told me about is a good brand of white cheddar) might be the kind of white cheddar that Mackís is using.  Glory Hallelujah, if I buy the cheese and it is the right brand.  At least that part of the mystery going on for over two years is solved.  ;D  Guess I better not get so excited until I buy some of the cheese and taste it baked on a pizza.   :-D

When I was watching what was being said under the article on Slice about The Pizza Lab and making Greek style pizzas, a poster GreekStyleGuy commented that you canít buy great white cheddar in stand supermarkets, Whole Foods, or specialty cheese shops, but it is only available though commercial channels like food distributors than can come in 40 lb. blocks, under the comments at http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2011/08/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-new-england-greek-style-pizza-at-home.html
That got me to thinking what the difference could be if I found and purchase a 40 lb. block of the right kind of 40 lb. block.  When my distributor told me the only thing on the 40 lb. block of white cheddar was the stamp of Wisconsin, I had remembered that is what you posted at Reply 13 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg95846.html#msg95846

I really appreciate your input, and will let you know when I purchase a 40 lb. block, if that white cheddar is the right cheddar.  :) Sure hope so.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on September 07, 2011, 12:57:55 PM
I recently tried another Mild White Cheddar..  Sommermaid brand.. While it wasn't as good as Land O'Lakes, it was still good enough to use in a pinch..  It comes in 5lb loafs.  Not sure of their distribution area.  I purchased mine at a cash and carry pizza/restaurant supply.  The link to this brand is below.
http://www.sommermaid.com/index.php?page=Cheese%20Natural
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 12, 2011, 08:47:36 PM
I whipped up a Mackís dough attempt this evening for tomorrow.  I did call my distributor and ordered a 40 lb. block of AMPI white cheddar cheese for the attempt tomorrow.  Now I also should have purchased a can of the Gangi sauce, but I didnít, when I went to Bova Foods, Inc. 

I upped the hydration of this Mackís attempt to 54% ,and used vegetable oil as the oil in the formula.  If the Mackís attempt turns out okay, if anyone want me to post the formula I used, I can.  I did use Kyrol flour as the flour in the formula.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:38:17 AM
I guess I took Jiminy Crickets advice for the cheese when making the attempt at the Mackís clone yesterday.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOZzNOkcEgM Jiminy always says, ďAlways let your conscience be your guideĒ.  I guess it was the blue fairy that influenced Jiminy Cricket to think that way.

Pinocchio and Jiminy Cricket were sure interested in the Mackís clone yesterday, since I was getting a big block of mild white cheddar to try. 

Steve and I measured out the ingredients we used to dress the pie.  We used .728 lb. sauce, (Walmart tomato paste) with .5114 lb. added water, 1 teaspoon of sugar, Ĺ teaspoon of salt, 1 teaspoon dried oregano, and Ĺ teaspoon of dried basil.  The amount of sauce we really used on the Mackís attempt pizza was 12 Ĺ oz. of sauce.

Steve and I made the pizza at about 5:00 pm yesterday.  I did get the big block of mild white cheddar later in the afternoon, from my distributor.   If anyone is interested in what the white cheddar block looked like, these are some pictures on how the box looked that the mild white cheddar was received in, and how big the block of mild white cheddar was.  Steve and I both tasted the mild white cheddar before it was baked on the Mackís attempt, and it tasted very good.

The Mackís attempt when cut, did crack when cut, but I didnít take a video of the pie being cut. If anyone cares to take a stab if this mild white cheddar might be the white cheddar Mackís uses, they can guess.

Jeff and Mark (theboys) brought me some Nasturtium edible flowers yesterday.  http://www.herbalgardens.com/archives/articles-archive/nasturtiums.html
They sure would have been interesting to try on the Mackís pizza or another pizza, but I didnít use them, but they are pictured in some of the photos.  I did taste some of the Nastursium edible flowers and they had a very nice different taste.  The Nasturtium had jewel tone colors and a nice peppery taste.  I would think they would be a nice topping for a pizza, salad, or great used in other food products.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:41:00 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:42:33 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:44:03 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:45:20 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 08:46:21 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on September 14, 2011, 09:33:49 AM
Norma,

That pizza looks as good as any real Mack's pizza I've seen.

How did you like it and do you have any observations or suggestions to pass on?

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 11:22:29 AM
Norma,

That pizza looks as good as any real Mack's pizza I've seen.

How did you like it and do you have any observations or suggestions to pass on?

Peter


Peter,

My Mackís attempt yesterday did look okay, but that darn Jiminy Cricket and the blue fairy where wrong in letting my ďconscience being my guideď!  :-D If anyone is interested, the big block of mild white cheddar only distributors sell, must not be the kind of mild white cheddar Mackís uses, unless the mild white cheddar does age and tastes different when it is older. I will have to try the mild white cheddar in another attempt later at some point. The mild white cheddar did melt well, was greasy and did look well on the Mackís attempt, but there still wasnít any tang in the taste.  I think this cheese thing with Mackís attempt will drive me nuts someday.  :-\ I talked to the delivery man from my distributor and he said many pizzerias in our area using a blend of half of this mild white cheddar and mozzarella for their NY style pies, or a combination of other blends with the mild white cheddar in the big blocks.  On the amount of sugar Steve and I added, Steve and I both thought that was too much added sugar.  I donít know if the sugar in the sauce would throw off the tasted of the Mackís attempt or not.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Flagpull on September 14, 2011, 11:26:16 AM
Norma,

I'm going to come over from York to visit you...if not this Tuesday, but the next. I'll let you know!

PG
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 11:47:35 AM
Norma,

I'm going to come over from York to visit you...if not this Tuesday, but the next. I'll let you know!

PG

PG,

Great to hear you are coming over from York to visit my market stand.  :) Let me know when you are coming.  If you want me to make a Mack's attempt, I will make the dough.  Maybe you want to handle the dough.  ;D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: NepaBill on September 14, 2011, 01:00:48 PM
Norma,

Land O'Lakes Mild Cheddar has no sharp taste whatsoever..  I recently tried a brand called Sommermaid..  It wasn't nearly as good and had a plastic like texture..  I am not from that area, but if you can find someone who can tell you the food suppliers in that area, that would tell you a lot!!  I tried searching the area, but not knowing anything in that area, I am wasting my time..  I did find Anacapri Foods...  They are kinda nearby..    Here is their listing of cheeses:  http://www.anacaprifoods.com/catalog2.php?sort=item_id&category=CHEESE&submit=Search  Once again..  Probably not the supplier they use, but I would go this route..
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on September 14, 2011, 02:55:47 PM
Norma,

Your latest Mack's clone dough recipe appears to be spot on.  The crispiness and large open structures in the crust are typical.

Please post your the recipe!!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 06:02:22 PM
Norma,

Land O'Lakes Mild Cheddar has no sharp taste whatsoever..  I recently tried a brand called Sommermaid..  It wasn't nearly as good and had a plastic like texture..  I am not from that area, but if you can find someone who can tell you the food suppliers in that area, that would tell you a lot!!  I tried searching the area, but not knowing anything in that area, I am wasting my time..  I did find Anacapri Foods...  They are kinda nearby..    Here is their listing of cheeses:  http://www.anacaprifoods.com/catalog2.php?sort=item_id&category=CHEESE&submit=Search  Once again..  Probably not the supplier they use, but I would go this route..

Bill,

Awhile back in this thread at Reply 167 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97545.html#msg97545
Peter mentioned how to find distributors in a particular state.

I then called different distributors at Reply 174 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97561.html#msg97561 and Reply 271 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97580.html#msg97580
This is where I posted my results at Reply 277 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg98275.html#msg98275  I did call a few more distributors near the shore, but I guess I gave up when I couldnít find one distributor that carried the Gangi sauce and the Kyrol flour.

ERASMO posted at Reply 175 he found out about different 40 lb. blocks of white cheddar at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97562.html#msg97562
And also at Reply 183 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg97580.html#msg97580

ray jock reported at Reply 323 that he used to work at Mackís pizza over 40 years ago and posted that the cheese was longhorn cheddar that came in big wheels from Wisconsin.  He said the use of the longhorn cheddar gave the pizza a stronger cheese flavor at Reply 323 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg100084.html#msg100084

I appreciate you tasting cheeses and helping with a distributor on this thread.  :) I did look at product catalog at http://www.anacaprifoods.com/catalog.php and didnít see Gangi sauce or Kyrol flour.  They still might be Mackís distributors, but I really donít know.  

The only way we can know who is the distributor and distributors is for a inside person to tell us, or someone that might be watching at Mackís or Mack and Mancos locations.

I guess I have become lax on this thread of calling distributors and not getting anywhere.  :-D

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 06:16:46 PM
Norma,

Your latest Mack's clone dough recipe appears to be spot on.  The crispiness and large open structures in the crust are typical.

Please post your the recipe!!

BOARDWALKER,

Thanks for thinking my latest Mack's clone dough formula looks spot on.  :) I think I almost copied Peter's formula. :-D My formula I used for yesterdayís Mack attempt was almost like Peterís attempt he tried at Reply 307 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9068.msg99472.html#msg99472 Seems like Peter knew what he was doing way back then.

If you do try Peter's or my formula, make sure you really press out the dough, before opening it.

Best of luck in creating a Mack's pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on September 14, 2011, 06:34:23 PM
Thanks much, Norma. I will give it a try!
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 14, 2011, 06:59:31 PM
Thanks much, Norma. I will give it a try!

BOARDWALKER,

Hope you will report your results whether good or bad.  It then helps to know how other members do with the formulas.  I hope your Mack's attempt turns out well.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on September 15, 2011, 02:47:20 PM
Norma, I noticed after your last attempt, you said the cheese didn't have the "tang" you were looking for. 

I noticed this as well, when I did my first, Mack's/Grotto attempt with mild cheddar.

Then I tried the white colby (12 oz. on a 16" pie) and what I tasted was...Booooiooooing!  Exactly the "tang" I think you are seeking. 

Just give it a shot, a 1 lb. block should only be about 5 bucks.  I tried Weis brand.

The first colby attempt I tried and posted about a while back, only used 10 ounces and was a little bland.  Those extra 2 ounces (or maybe the cheese was fresher) made a difference for me.

What have you got to lose?

There is a Weis market in Lansdale:

1551 Valley Forge Road
 Lansdale, PA 19446

Hope this is the final piece of the puzzle.....oh please for your sake, let it be.  You've done so much for everyone else.  Hope I can return the favor.

Hope to try your newest dough formulation soon.  I tried the old one again a while back.  After I mixed it, I immediately divided the doubled recipe in half, and put them in the metal dough retarders overnight.  In the morning, I took them out (They didn't grow in size) and let them come to room temp for 6 hours and OMG!  It was perfect!  So easy to work with.  I never shaped a home made pizza that quickly. 
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 15, 2011, 05:33:13 PM
Norma, I noticed after your last attempt, you said the cheese didn't have the "tang" you were looking for. 

I noticed this as well, when I did my first, Mack's/Grotto attempt with mild cheddar.

Then I tried the white colby (12 oz. on a 16" pie) and what I tasted was...Booooiooooing!  Exactly the "tang" I think you are seeking. 

Just give it a shot, a 1 lb. block should only be about 5 bucks.  I tried Weis brand.

The first colby attempt I tried and posted about a while back, only used 10 ounces and was a little bland.  Those extra 2 ounces (or maybe the cheese was fresher) made a difference for me.

What have you got to lose?

There is a Weis market in Lansdale:

1551 Valley Forge Road
 Lansdale, PA 19446

Hope this is the final piece of the puzzle.....oh please for your sake, let it be.  You've done so much for everyone else.  Hope I can return the favor.

Hope to try your newest dough formulation soon.  I tried the old one again a while back.  After I mixed it, I immediately divided the doubled recipe in half, and put them in the metal dough retarders overnight.  In the morning, I took them out (They didn't grow in size) and let them come to room temp for 6 hours and OMG!  It was perfect!  So easy to work with.  I never shaped a home made pizza that quickly. 

expo7290 .

I did say the mild white cheddar didnít have enough tang.  It is interesting you are posting about white Colby and it might be the cheese to try on a Mackís pizza.  I guess there are different brands of white Colby, and also how they taste when baked on a pie.  I donít know where Steve purchased the white Colby cheese he used on a Greek style pizza he made last week at market, and I am not sure how it would have tasted on a Mackís pizza, but the taste of the white Colby he brought to market, didnít taste anything like Mackís cheese, when baked on the Greek pizza.  The taste of the white Colby baked on the Greek pizza was very good, but nothing like Mackís cheese.  Since you tried another brand of white Colby before and it was a little bland, I can understand that different white Colby brands are different.  I do have a Weis market very close to where I live.  Next time I get there I will purchase some of their brand of white Colby and try it on either on a whole pizza or maybe a half.  I can only hope this is the part of the puzzle that will solve the cheese issue.  I have tried many different kinds of cheese so far, and the closest I gotten is when I blended cheeses.  It has been a long journey trying to find the right cheese.  :-D

I am glad my other formula worked out well for you.  The formula I did use on my last attempt a few days ago didnít rise much either.  I donít know why that was.  It might have something to do with all the oil in the formula, but I donít know.

Thanks so much for your help with the cheese.  I appreciate you thoughts very much!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 24, 2011, 08:51:56 AM
This post is just to add that I did ask Steve what brand of Colby he used on the Greek Style pizza he made the other week. and he said it was the Weis brand of Colby.  On the Greek Style pizza, the cheese didnít taste anything like Mackís cheese does, but I can understand if it might be baked on a formula posted on this thread, it might taste a lot different.  When I have time, I will try some Weis brand of Colby on part of a Mackís attempt.

Maybe other members might want give Weis brand of Colby (if they can purchase it their area) a shot to see if they think it tastes like Mack's cheese, and then report back.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: expo7290 on September 25, 2011, 07:12:14 PM
Norma, I just tried a 50-50 white colby / monterey jack blend...even better.  

This is what I will use if I open my own shop.

In addition, I have never tried a Mack's (as I mentioned when I first got on this thread)...so I may have been waaaay off base with the colby reference.  Sorry.  I was excited because it was what I was looking for.  

Hopefully you find your white whale someday.  I found mine and it is mostly due to your and everyone's efforts on this thread.

Thank you everyone.

I am going to stay on here and start posting some pics soon.  Everytime I start making the pies, I realize too late and it's already in the oven.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 25, 2011, 07:44:13 PM
Norma, I just tried a 50-50 white colby / monterey jack blend...even better.  

This is what I will use if I open my own shop.

In addition, I have never tried a Mack's (as I mentioned when I first got on this thread)...so I may have been waaaay off base with the colby reference.  Sorry.  I was excited because it was what I was looking for.  

Hopefully you find your white whale someday.  I found mine and it is mostly due to your and everyone's efforts on this thread.

Thank you everyone.

I am going to stay on here and start posting some pics soon.  Everytime I start making the pies, I realize too late and it's already in the oven.

Expo7290,

Your blend of white Cobly and Monterey sounds good.  :) I think they also sell something called Colby-Jack that is marbled.  I have eaten that cheese, but never tried the Colby-Jack or the blend like you tried on any pizza.

No need to be sorry for saying you like how a cheese or blend of cheeses tastes on a pizza.  I think there are many different blends of cheeses that are good on pizzas.  I am glad you found what you really like.

Thanks for saying you hope this thread will find its white whale someday.  I donít know if anyone will ever be able to find the exact cheese Mackís uses, because it probably comes in a 40 lb. block without labels.  That is what makes it so hard to find the brand of cheese Mackís uses.

I am also going to try some blends again.

Looking forward to seeing some of the pies you make, if you can post the pictures.  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2011, 07:16:37 PM
I had an interesting phone called this morning, from a man that saw on my blog about my attempts at trying to make a pie like Mackís or Mack and Mancoís.  He said he specifically saw the 40 lb. block of cheese I bought and he thought I had found the cheese to make a Mackís pizza.  I told him no, I didnít find the exact cheese Mackís uses.  The way the man talked he said he looked me up by finding where my small pizza stand was, and then went from there to find how to contact me.  He told me he is from Trenton, NJ and knows how different families years ago went to the shore to start their pizzas businesses and they were all related somehow.  The man told me about a pizza business at Seaside Heights, NJ that is called Marucas tomato pie. http://www.marucaspizza.com/  He said their cheese tastes like Mackís cheese too.  I asked the man if he ever looks at pizza making.com and he said he didnít look at this forum very much and generally tries ideas to make his own pizzas that taste like DeLorenzoís pizza.  He said most people tell him his pizza does tastes like DeLorenzoís pizza.  He also said somehow all the people that started pizza business at the shore all got ideas from DeLorenzoís.  He asked me if I had tried different types of cheeses from distributors in 40 lb. blocks and I said I had only tried the one I purchased recently.  He said he was in touch with a distributor and might know where Mackís purchases their cheese and what brand it was.  He said on the box there is a number that shows exactly how the brand of cheese can be traced from the factory.  He is going to try to help us on this thread.  He gave me his phone number and told me to call him anytime.  I told him to come here on the forum and look at this thread.  I donít know if he will or not.  We talked about many things related to pizza, but the above is what I thought I would post about.

These are a few links to pictures about Marucas pizza. http://www.roadfood.com/Forums/Seaside-Heights-Brick-NJ-33008-Sun-afternoon-m387917.aspx
If you go down in this blog you can also see Marucas tomato pie. http://joeyzsspeakeasy.blogspot.com/2009/11/boardwalk-tomato-pie.html

In the beachcomer magazine.
http://beachcombermagazine.com/eat-seaside-park.htm

Different pictures on Flicker.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/holiday_jenny/5654157028/

Also on Yelp.
http://www.yelp.com/biz/maruca-tomato-pies-seaside-park

I donít know what other members might think, but I think Marucas tomato pies look very similar to Mackís pizza.  It says in some of the reviews it is cheddar cheese they use as the cheese for their tomato pies.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: scott123 on September 29, 2011, 07:57:38 PM
I have to admit, Maruca's looks a lot like Mack's, even down to the cheese.

I'm curious, for those familiar with Trenton, is cheddar common there as well?  I was under the assumption that Trenton was just mozz under sauce.

Like the other places, the tomato pie looks great, but what's going on with that fior di latte pie next to it?

http://www.roadfood.com/insider/photos/4555.jpg

I'd be embarrassed to have something looking like that in my case.

Norma, I'm just going to throw this out there, but could it be possible that you do have the right cheese but aren't baking it the right way?  The flavor of cheese changes pretty dramatically during baking, especially cheddar.  You want it to bubble and brown, but not bubble and brown too much.  Thickness factors are critical to cheese flavor- the thinner the crust, the less insulation, the more heat the cheese gets from below.  Bottom heat encourages bubbling/oiling off while top heat encourages browning.  I can't speak for cheddar, but mozz in a greater thickness factor environment (more than .085") generally doesn't get enough heat from below, which, in turn, causes it to brown more than bubble, which, in turn, prevents it from reaching maximum richness/flavor. At least, some mozz.  Grande/Grande clones tend to bubble in just about any setting.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on September 29, 2011, 08:39:03 PM

Norma, I'm just going to throw this out there, but could it be possible that you do have the right cheese but aren't baking it the right way?  The flavor of cheese changes pretty dramatically during baking, especially cheddar.  You want it to bubble and brown, but not bubble and brown too much.  Thickness factors are critical to cheese flavor- the thinner the crust, the less insulation, the more heat the cheese gets from below.  Bottom heat encourages bubbling/oiling off while top heat encourages browning.  I can't speak for cheddar, but mozz in a greater thickness factor environment (more than .085") generally doesn't get enough heat from below, which, in turn, causes it to brown more than bubble, which, in turn, prevents it from reaching maximum richness/flavor. At least, some mozz.  Grande/Grande clones tend to bubble in just about any setting.

Scott 123,

I sure wish the cheddar I bought would taste different if it is baked a different way.  Steve and I have been using the same new white cheddar I bought in the big over 40 lb. block on different Greek pies we have been making also, and we both commented that the big block of cheddar I bought sure doesnít have much of any flavor to it.  That really has me stumped too. We first thought maybe the white cheddar needs to age some, but am not sure of that either. The mild white cheddar I bought gets tough when it cools. Mackís white cheddar doesnít do that. I have no idea if the cheese is baked differently on a Mackís pie if it will taste different.  Of all the pies I have seen pictures of real Mackís or Mack and Mancos pizza the cheese never browns.  I donít really know, but from the way the man that talked to me this morning said, there are many brands of mild white cheddar.  I donít know if that is true or not, but guess I will have to wait until the man (Bill) calls me again.  Bill talked so fast today, but I think he even said Grande sells some brand of white cheddar that only distributors sell.  I am not sure of that though.  I think the only way we will know what kind of cheddar Mackís or Mack and Mancos uses is get a box that has been torn down, then try to go from there.  If you have any ideas of how to go about that, let me know.  I appreciate your help!  :)  This thread needs all the help it can get. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: ERASMO on October 02, 2011, 10:03:44 AM
http://philadelphia.foobooz.com/tag/joey-macks/

Check this out.
"Joey Mack serves his pizza on a thin crust with sauce spread in concentric circles and topped with shredded white cheddar."
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 02, 2011, 11:44:48 AM
http://philadelphia.foobooz.com/tag/joey-macks/

Check this out.
"Joey Mack serves his pizza on a thin crust with sauce spread in concentric circles and topped with shredded white cheddar."

ERASMO,

While doing research for Mackís pizza, I did come across references for Joey Mackís Boardwalk pizza, but never went they to try them.  Do you plan on visiting someday since you live close to Phila?

These are some reviews on Yelp for Joeyís Mackís Boardwalk pizza.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/joey-macks-boardwalk-pizza-philadelphia

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on October 06, 2011, 08:00:51 AM
Norma,
One of these days, you and I need to take a pizza road trip downtown. I'll drive. No problem.  :D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2011, 11:24:13 AM
Norma,
One of these days, you and I need to take a pizza road trip downtown. I'll drive. No problem.  :D

Steve,

A road trip always sounds good to me, and trying Joeyís Mackís Boardwalk pizza also sounds great, but how is that going to help us find the type of cheese they might use.  I wonder if any members ever tried a Joeyís Mackís Boardwalk pizza to compare how it tastes to a Mackís pizza as far as how the cheese tastes.  I would imagine they might both use the same cheese.

Here is what a blogger had to say about Joeyís Mack Boardwalk pizza, and other boardwalk pizzas like Mack and Mancoís and how they are supposed to be related.

http://bestphiladelphiapizzablog.blogspot.com/2009/09/macks-boardwalk-pizza-south.html

Thanks for saying you would drive.  :) I hate city traffic, and I am not that familiar with Phila.


Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Ev on October 06, 2011, 01:50:14 PM
If it tastes the same, then we'd have another guy to bribe and another dumpster to dive! :-D
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 06, 2011, 02:44:57 PM
If it tastes the same, then we'd have another guy to bribe and another dumpster to dive! :-D

Steve,

Leave me out of the bribing, but your other alternative I might be up for.  :-\

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on October 08, 2011, 01:01:17 PM
Bill from Trenton, NJ called me again this morning to discuss how we might find out what brand of white cheddar Mackís might be using.  We talked about how we could find out what kinds of white cheddars were produced for commercial pizzerias 50 years ago.  I donít know how to find that information out, so if someone knows how to do that let me know.  Bill is older than I am, and remembers Marucaís at North Olden Ave. in Trenton, NJ.  They are the same Marucaís that are in Seaside Heights, NJ now.  Bill still states that Mackís, Mack and Mancos, and Marucaís all use the same mild white cheddar.  Bill said he looked at the code number on the box of the block of mild white cheddar I bought, and then went to the distributor and the number on the box and the number on the box at the distributor were the same.  At the distributor the owner said that is the exact cheese Mackís and the others use.  I said I had tried that mild white cheddar in different pies and the cheese sure doesnít melt or taste like Mackís cheese.  I told Bill after the pie cools, the cheese gets rubbery, and is nothing like the cheese on Mackís pizza.   Bill said right now he doesnít want to ask the distributor more questions because he thinks he might get suspicious.  Bill now thinks they must blend the kind of cheese I bought with another kind of mozzarella.  I told him I have no idea about that.  I told Bill I have checked Feesers in Harrisburg and they also sell 40 lb. blocks of white cheddar, but I am not sure if it is the same brand I bought.  When I am finished with the large block I bought, I might purchase a 40 lb. block from Feesers, but I am not sure if I will do that because the white cheddar I bought does get moldy fast.  I froze most of the white cheddar, but the cheddar I kept either in aluminum foil, or plastic bags in my deli case is starting to get moldy.  The taste of the mild white cheddar still hasnít changed.  Feesers does deliver to NJ. http://feesers.com/  and doing a product search http://feesers.com/productsearch/product_category_sample.cfm?pbh_no=1875&search_type=P  Does anyone know what brand of white cheddar is the DRUCK or the  P L brand?  At least from the search for white cheddar on Feesers website, I found that Feesers does sell All Trumps unbleached flour, so I guess that wouldnít be bromated too. http://feesers.com/productsearch/product_category_sample.cfm?pbh_no=0600&search_type=P

Bill also said that DeLorenzoís Tomato Pies have changed over the years and only the oldest location pies still taste the same.

Bill said he doesnít drive much anymore, but would try to get to my pizza stand someday.  Bill also makes pizzas many times like I do.  Bill said he is going to try some blends of retail cheddars on some Mackís attempts and will get back to me in a week or more.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 13, 2011, 07:49:31 PM
I mixed another Mackís clone dough tonight, because I tasted a new cheddar cheese today at the supermarket.  It is Dietz and Watsonís New York State Cheddar Cheese.  I thought it would be sharp, but is wasnít, and it does have a nice tang.  The Dietz and Watsonís New York State Cheddar Chesses is also creamy.  I have no idea how it will bake on a Mackís pizza though. 

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: PizzaEater101 on November 14, 2011, 11:45:57 AM
I mixed another Mackís clone dough tonight, because I tasted a new cheddar cheese today at the supermarket.  It is Dietz and Watsonís New York State Cheddar Cheese.  I thought it would be sharp, but is wasnít, and it does have a nice tang.  The Dietz and Watsonís New York State Cheddar Chesses is also creamy.  I have no idea how it will bake on a Mackís pizza though. 

Norma

Just for those of you who like hot dogs with natural casing for that snap, Dietz and Watson's makes excellent hot dogs.   I buy D&W and they are some of the best.  Don't eat hot dogs a lot but if I do it's often D&W.  I buy Nathan's sometimes, non-casing style too.  But check out D&W natural casing they are awesome.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: JConk007 on November 14, 2011, 07:30:53 PM
Hi Norma,
I am in Atlantic City on the Boardwalk , anything I should try to taste or investigate for you whilst I am here for a few days ? I saw a few big ole slice joints during a quick walk earlier on the boardwalk. Is there any Neapolitan Pizza in AC?
John
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 14, 2011, 08:44:43 PM
Hi Norma,
I am in Atlantic City on the Boardwalk , anything I should try to taste or investigate for you whilst I am here for a few days ? I saw a few big ole slice joints during a quick walk earlier on the boardwalk. Is there any Neapolitan Pizza in AC?
John

John,

If you are driving, you could try Mack and Mancos at Stone Harbor.  Stone Harbor isnít far away from Atlantic City.  I never tried Mack and Mancos, but they are supposed to be like Mackís pizza.  Some people have different opinions between Mackís Pizza and Mack and Mancos. http://www.yelp.com/c/stone-harbor-nj/pizza and http://www.menuism.com/restaurants/mack-manco-too-stone-harbor-122254 Mack and Mancos website isnít running right now.  Launch date is supposed to be 11/17/2011 http://www.mancospizza.com/  If you can find out anything about Mack and Mancos or the cheese they use that would be great!  ;D There are many slice joints at the shore, but I have no idea how good they are.  I havenít been to Atlantic City for a few years.  The last time I was there it was before my pizza making days.

I have no idea about Neapolitan pizzas in Atlantic City, but this is one I found. http://www.theborgata.com/Main.cfm?Category_1=4000&Category_2=4200&Category_3=4250   Have fun, and I hope you find some good pizzas!  :)

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on November 16, 2011, 06:02:59 PM
The place in Stone harbor is called "Mackrone's", not "Mack and Manco".  It is supposedly owned by a Mack's family member, however, their pies do not compare to Mack's or Mack and Manco.  Mackrone's is a seasonal business and is closed for the winter.

I regularly eat at both Mack's and M&M, and i have come to prefer Mack and Manco.  In the past few years, Mack's has begun to throw extra cheese on top of their pies after they apply the sauce over the bottom layer of cheese.  I prefer M&M in that they still do it the original way, without extra cheese  - it provides a better sauce to cheese ratio.

Looking forward to Norma's Dietz and Watson cheddar clone.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 16, 2011, 10:05:25 PM
The place in Stone harbor is called "Mackrone's", not "Mack and Manco".  It is supposedly owned by a Mack's family member, however, their pies do not compare to Mack's or Mack and Manco.  Mackrone's is a seasonal business and is closed for the winter.

I regularly eat at both Mack's and M&M, and i have come to prefer Mack and Manco.  In the past few years, Mack's has begun to throw extra cheese on top of their pies after they apply the sauce over the bottom layer of cheese.  I prefer M&M in that they still do it the original way, without extra cheese  - it provides a better sauce to cheese ratio.

Looking forward to Norma's Dietz and Watson cheddar clone.

BOARDWALKER,

Thanks for cleaning up that the place I mentioned to John isnít Mack and Manco.  :) I didnít either remember or know that.  It is interesting you said the pie at Mackroneís doesnít compare to Mackís or Mack and Manco.  It is also interesting you prefer Mack and Mancos over Mackís pizza, and why you prefer Mack and Manco.  Since you have tasted pies from both places, do you think there is any difference in their sauce or the crusts? 

I will post about the attempt at the Mackís pizza with the Dietz and Watson sharp cheddar tomorrow.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:40:24 AM
The Mackís attempt with the Dietz and Watsonís sharp white cheddar went okay in terms of the crust and sauce, but the flavor of the Dietz and Watsonís sharp white cheddar didnít taste like the cheese Mackís uses.  The Dietz and Watsonís sharp white cheddar was a very creamy and a buttery cheese when baked on the Mackís attempt.  If anyone likes a different flavor when making a pizza in the cheese, the Dietz and Watsonís sharp white cheddar is a good cheese to give a try.  It melted very well, was greasy, didnít break down, and added a very delicious taste to the pizza.  Steve, Randy, my taste testers, and I all enjoyed this cheese on a pizza.

The sauce used was the Great Value tomato paste from Walmart.  It also was very good and close to the taste of a Mackís pizza.  I added a fair amount of dried Oregano, a little dried basil, salt, pepper, and water to thin the paste.  The Great Value tomato paste also is a good paste to use for sauce for a pizza in my opinion.  After adding the spices, the sauce sat for awhile and it really changed the flavor profile.  We thought the flavor profile really became better.

We all enjoyed the Mackís attempt with the Dietz and Watsonís sharp white cheddar, but I should have put less cheese on the Mackís attempt.

Randy, a friend of Steveís and mine, that comes to market each week, seems to be very knowledgeable about almost anything, and we all were talking about maybe what kind of white cheddar that might have been used back in the 50ís for a pizza businesses.  Randy mentioned Cooper American sharp cheddar, because he knew it was made years ago.  He said Cooper American sharp cheddar does have a tang and is creamy.  I checked on the web about Cooper sharp cheddar and found it was made in the Pa. area in the 50ís.  http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_makes_cooper_sharp_cheese  I can easily purchased some Cooper sharp cheddar to try on a Mackís attempt maybe for another week.  If anyone has access to Cooper sharp American, maybe they might want to try the cheese on a Mackís attempt.  Cooper sharp cheddar is like an American cheese with a tang, but I am not sure if Cooper sharp cheddar is manufactured by Schreiber Foods, Inc. or not.  This is a picture of 5 lb. of Cooper Sharp American cheese and it can be purchased at Walmart.
http://www.walmart.com/ip/Cooper-Sharp-American-Cheese-5-Lb/15136820  I would guess, but donít know, if the Cooper Sharp Yellow American might taste like the Cooper Sharp White American. http://www.shoprite.com/pd/Cooper/Cheese-Sharp-Yellow-American/1-lb/277747000000/  Another link for product finder for Cooper Sharp American cheese, if anyone is interested. http://www.hannaford.com/product/Deli/Cheese/Slicing-Cheeses/Cooper-Sharp-Cheese/c/28189/sc/46299/ssc/46308/794622.uts?refineByCategoryId=46308

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:45:06 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:46:08 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:47:19 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:48:14 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:49:28 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 06:50:03 AM
Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: BOARDWALKER on November 17, 2011, 08:42:28 AM
Norma,

The sauce and crust are identical.
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: Pete-zza on November 17, 2011, 09:27:47 AM
I got a big kick out of the last photo showing the gentleman with his mouth open. The lady behind him also has a puzzled look on her face.

Peter
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 10:12:25 AM
Norma,

The sauce and crust are identical.

BOARDWALKER,

The sauce and crust were okay, now the journey is still on for the cheese.  Hopefully someday, I will either find the brand of cheese Mack's uses, or a decent retail brand to use.

Norma
Title: Re: NJ Boardwalk Pizza
Post by: norma427 on November 17, 2011, 10:18:00 AM
I got a big kick out of the last photo showing the gentleman with his mouth open. The lady behind him also has a puzzled look on her face.

Peter

Peter,

Glad you got a big kick of the last photo showing the gentleman with his mouth open and the