Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Chicago Style => Topic started by: pythonic on February 09, 2014, 09:22:39 PM

Title: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 09, 2014, 09:22:39 PM
Whoa Mama.  Move over corn oil, crisco is king.  Look at the flakiness (where I pushed in that hole) Totally different crust texture.  You have to try this.  Mixing process is key too.

For 9 inch pan:

Ceresota AP - 95% - 175g
Semolina - 5% - 10g
Water - 46% - 85g
Corn Oil - 19% - 35g
Olive Oil- 4% - 7g
Salt - less than 1/8 tsp
Sugar - 1/4 tsp
IDY - 1/4 tsp

Process coming soon.

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Used butter flavored crisco in the pan
Post by: Qarl on February 09, 2014, 09:28:49 PM
Please post the process soon!  I want to make this one of the next few nights

Thx!

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Used butter flavored crisco in the pan
Post by: pythonic on February 09, 2014, 10:20:46 PM
Please post the process soon!  I want to make this one of the next few nights

Thx!

Here is the process.   I use a bowl, whisk for dry ingredients and a spoon.   Mix all dry ingredients minus the yeast.  Add oil and mix in halfway with spoon then add in the water.  Mix half way again and next sprinkle in the yeast.  Mix again with your spoon until it all comes together.  Then you need to hand mix it gently for about 1.5-2 mins (I use one hand for this).  You want to make sure you get most of the clumps of oil incorporated into the dough.  After your done cover and put into oven with the light on for 5hrs.

Add butter flavored crisco to pan.  I went all the way up the sides.  Place stone on 2nd rack and preheat to 425.  Preheat stone for additional 45 mins. 

Place dough in pan and press it out.  I only went 1 inch up side of my 2 inch pan.  This is important because the thinner you make it the harder it gets.  I believe mine to be the sweet spot as for thickness.

Increase temp to 450F and bake for 28 mins.  I put foil on top with about 10 to go to prevent cheese burning and removed foil for final 3 mins.

For cheese I used Pecorino Romano and whole milk Mozz on bottom and then parm on top.  For Tomatoes I used Alta Cucina Plum which I think are almost identical to Malnatis tomatoe flavor.

Hint:   The crust gets better as it cools down.  I remove from pan after 5 mins and then wait another 10 mins before I cut it.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Musky on February 10, 2014, 12:20:48 AM
I've always used butter flavored Crisco for Lou clone deep dish.  Makes a Sicilian good, too.

Kevin
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rapidsgrand on February 14, 2014, 10:04:59 AM
Great looking crust. How many ounces of cheese and sauce do you put on a 9"?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 14, 2014, 11:22:51 AM
Great looking crust. How many ounces of cheese and sauce do you put on a 9"?

8oz cheese, sauce varies how much u like.  I go very light.  The key for sauce is to use nice chunks of tomato and drain them thoroughly before applying.  If there is a little liquid keep in in the center of the pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on February 14, 2014, 12:12:38 PM
Looks really good.

What is the reasoning for adding in oil before water?  I've seen people talk about it before so curious what it provides..

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 14, 2014, 01:25:48 PM
Looks really good.

What is the reasoning for adding in oil before water?  I've seen people talk about it before so curious what it provides..

Helps to achieve flaking in the crust.  The flour absorbs the oil instead of all the water and the water steams off in hot oven creating those flakes/layers.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 17, 2014, 08:10:37 PM
Tonight's pie.  1st 24hr cold rise I've done with any Malnatis dough.  Dough flavor was definitely better but it altered the texture.  The crust didn't get as flaky from the crisco.  It also tasted a little heavier/light breadiness.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Tampa on February 18, 2014, 08:43:10 AM
Crazy good, right there.  Thanks for posting the method.
Dave
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: loumalunogino312 on February 18, 2014, 09:46:49 PM
I've been lurking and after trying recipes that measured by volume, I finally broke down and got a nice digital scale. This is the first recipe I've tried and it was awesome! Thank you for sharing the method of mixing as well. I think it made a difference.   The only thing I have to do now is track down a suitable sausage and tweak the sauce a bit. I've been trying for years to make a good deep dish and this was the best yet.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: prophecy on February 18, 2014, 09:57:15 PM
Mother of God....


I now have a new avenue to explore in pizza making now that I see those pics :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 19, 2014, 09:32:11 PM
I've been lurking and after trying recipes that measured by volume, I finally broke down and got a nice digital scale. This is the first recipe I've tried and it was awesome! Thank you for sharing the method of mixing as well. I think it made a difference.   The only thing I have to do now is track down a suitable sausage and tweak the sauce a bit. I've been trying for years to make a good deep dish and this was the best yet.

Glad u liked it.  Here is the sausage recipe most of us use around here.  Best I've ever made.

http://mobile.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/09/juicy-sweet-or-hot-italian-sausage.html (http://mobile.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/09/juicy-sweet-or-hot-italian-sausage.html)

What are u using for your sauce?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 19, 2014, 09:34:35 PM
Mother of God....


I now have a new avenue to explore in pizza making now that I see those pics :drool:

  :D

You're about to enter the world of fantastic eats!

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: loumalunogino312 on February 20, 2014, 12:30:53 AM
Glad u liked it.  Here is the sausage recipe most of us use around here.  Best I've ever made.

http://mobile.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/09/juicy-sweet-or-hot-italian-sausage.html (http://mobile.seriouseats.com/recipes/2011/09/juicy-sweet-or-hot-italian-sausage.html)

What are u using for your sauce?
Well looks like I'll be buying a meat grinder next lol. I got the sausage from Trader Joe's and although it was a tasty sausage it wasn't quite right. Thanks for the recipe!

 For the sauce I used Muir Glen crushed tomato with basil. I added more fresh basil, a couple cloves of garlic and some salt to taste. I also added a pinch of sugar because on my last try, the tomatoes (same brand) were really acidic. The sugar helped a lot with that. The sauce was really close as far as my taste buds were concerned but something is missing.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on February 20, 2014, 09:04:55 AM
Well looks like I'll be buying a meat grinder next lol.

You can buy ground pork and do it that way.  Just make sure it's not too lean.  80/20 stuff works fine.

The mobile version of that recipe lacks the "note" that tells how to do it with already ground pork.  The way you do it is to do steps 1 and 3 only.  My version (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17662.msg171285.html#msg171285) of this recipe has a slightly different formulation, but the procedure is the same and is based on this recipe from Kenji.

HTH,
Garvey
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on February 20, 2014, 05:50:09 PM
Gotta make one of these this weekend!  :drool:

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: dmckean44 on February 20, 2014, 07:20:09 PM
If you can find ground pork that is fattier than 80/20 it works even better. I go to the asian market here for that.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: loumalunogino312 on February 21, 2014, 01:13:22 AM
Wow, thanks Garvey! Yes that helps a lot!

And thanks for the tip dmckean. I don't have any Asian markets nearby  but I have a few butchers by me...maybe they have something similar available.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: bigMoose on February 22, 2014, 01:43:50 PM
I made this pie last night as one of 5 styles for 8 guests.  It was a complete home run!  It was my first Deep Dish attempt, so the recipe must be pretty bullet proof.  I used the recipe in the first post.  I will only note the differences in process.

I prepared a double batch of the dough in my KA with the flat beater bar.  All dry ingredients in the bowl (used AP flour).  IDY dissolved in warm water.  KA on speed one and two.  I drizzled the oil mixture down the side of the bowl.  The KA picked it up and the flour became like lumped cornmeal.  I then drizzled the water onto the flour as the KA ran.  The dough came together perfectly.  I then hand kneaded it for a minute or so.  I let it room rise in a warm kitchen (mid 70's) for around 5 hours in a covered plastic storage container.  It more than doubled in that time and took the lid off the container.

I divided the dough, Butter Crisco'd the 9in pan and pressed the dough out and in the pan.  Some parts of the bottom seemed thin but were ok when baked.  I ran the dough all the way up the 2 inch sides.

Internals were shredded  Supremo Italiano Prov/Motz blend, home made fennel sausage, Mama Isabella's pepperoni a few red onion slices and some Jalapeno pepper slices.  Sauce was about 18 to 20 oz of 6in1.  The 28 oz 6in1 received 1/2 tsp of basil, 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp salt, 3/4 tsp sugar.

Baking was in a preheated 450 degree oven for a total of 33 minutes.  First 10 minutes on a screen on my stone.  Then to the top rack as another pizza went on the stone.  With about 13 minutes to go I draped tin foil over the top of the pie to prevent excessive browning of the crust.

After removal from the oven I let it sit for 10 minutes.  It cut perfectly.  No excessive water.  I removed the perfect first slice... then dropped it.  Pix below.

My guests comments were: "flakey, like a biscuit,  this is perfect!"

My thanks to pythonic for this recipe and work flow.  This is a winner.  I have my "go to" deep dish recipe.

BTW, as an experiment I used the other part of the dough to make a normal "flat" pizza.  I baked it on the stone at 500 degrees.  It was terrible.  The pizza was waterlogged and the crust soggy, saggy and a mess. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on February 22, 2014, 08:54:20 PM
My attempt at this one (actually, without the butter flavored Crisco). I went with a low cost shot for the first attempt. I wanted to run through the workflow, to see how it would go. I think, had I used better ingredients, this would have been a knockout! Thanks, Nate. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 22, 2014, 08:59:42 PM
I made this pie last night as one of 5 styles for 8 guests.  It was a complete home run!  It was my first Deep Dish attempt, so the recipe must be pretty bullet proof.  I used the recipe in the first post.  I will only note the differences in process.

I prepared a double batch of the dough in my KA with the flat beater bar.  All dry ingredients in the bowl (used AP flour).  IDY dissolved in warm water.  KA on speed one and two.  I drizzled the oil mixture down the side of the bowl.  The KA picked it up and the flour became like lumped cornmeal.  I then drizzled the water onto the flour as the KA ran.  The dough came together perfectly.  I then hand kneaded it for a minute or so.  I let it room rise in a warm kitchen (mid 70's) for around 5 hours in a covered plastic storage container.  It more than doubled in that time and took the lid off the container.

I divided the dough, Butter Crisco'd the 9in pan and pressed the dough out and in the pan.  Some parts of the bottom seemed thin but were ok when baked.  I ran the dough all the way up the 2 inch sides.

Internals were shredded  Supremo Italiano Prov/Motz blend, home made fennel sausage, Mama Isabella's pepperoni a few red onion slices and some Jalapeno pepper slices.  Sauce was about 18 to 20 oz of 6in1.  The 28 oz 6in1 received 1/2 tsp of basil, 1/2 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp salt, 3/4 tsp sugar.

Baking was in a preheated 450 degree oven for a total of 33 minutes.  First 10 minutes on a screen on my stone.  Then to the top rack as another pizza went on the stone.  With about 13 minutes to go I draped tin foil over the top of the pie to prevent excessive browning of the crust.

After removal from the oven I let it sit for 10 minutes.  It cut perfectly.  No excessive water.  I removed the perfect first slice... then dropped it.  Pix below.

My guests comments were: "flakey, like a biscuit,  this is perfect!"

My thanks to pythonic for this recipe and work flow.  This is a winner.  I have my "go to" deep dish recipe.

BTW, as an experiment I used the other part of the dough to make a normal "flat" pizza.  I baked it on the stone at 500 degrees.  It was terrible.  The pizza was waterlogged and the crust soggy, saggy and a mess.

Great job on your deep dish moose.  I've only gotten very positive reviews with this dough and it sure sounds like you did too.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 22, 2014, 09:01:08 PM
My attempt at this one (actually, without the butter flavored Crisco). I went with a low cost shot for the first attempt. I wanted to run through the workflow, to see how it would go. I think, had I used better ingredients, this would have been a knockout! Thanks, Nate.

Is it Wayne?  Crust looks great.  Glad you really liked this.  Now get some good cheese and tomatoes and you'll be turning some heads.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on February 22, 2014, 09:12:08 PM
Nate, I could not agree more. The crust was really good. My handling of the dough might have been better, subsequent attempts should improve that.  A step up on the input, will make a big difference in the output. This was pretty darn good, given my approach. I sent some over to my neighbor, and he loved it. Next one will be better. I think I got lucky with my picture. It really made it look good. :D

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 22, 2014, 09:15:20 PM
Nate, I could not agree more. The crust was really good. My handling of the dough might have been better, subsequent attempts should improve that.  A step up on the input, will make a big difference in the output. This was pretty darn good, given my approach. I sent some over to my neighbor, and he loved it. Next one will be better. I think I got lucky with my picture. It really made it look good. :D

Wayne

Your technique and final product will get better the more you make these.  The amount of cheese, the amount of tomatoes you use as well as the placement.  Once you find that perfect balance you will be amazed how good it can get. 

Nate

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 13, 2014, 03:07:43 PM
I want to make this same dough but for my 14 inch pan.  Anyone know the new weights?

Peter,

Any ideas on how much flour I need?  Is their just an equation I can use for larger diameter?

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: derricktung on March 14, 2014, 09:38:04 AM
Nate,

Looks like you've got quite the deep dish recipe going on here!  Looking forward to giving this one a whirl eventually... if I ever fall off my Neapolitan kick.  =)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 14, 2014, 10:55:46 AM
Nate,

Looks like you've got quite the deep dish recipe going on here!  Looking forward to giving this one a whirl eventually... if I ever fall off my Neapolitan kick.  =)

Thanks Derrick.  I have to mix up my styles or I think I would get sick of pizza.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 31, 2014, 08:11:19 AM
Last nights.  Dropped total flour to 175g, water to 45% and upped oil to 24%.  No semolina this time and I didn't think the taste was as good.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: biondanonima on June 29, 2014, 12:17:44 PM
Pythonic, I made my first deep-dish last night and I used your oil-first technique - I knew I had read it somewhere on this forum but I couldn't recall where.  But anyway, thank you!  My crust turned out beautifully (even though I underbaked it) and now that I've found this thread again I'm sure it will be even better next time!  I didn't have butter flavored Crisco but I may give that a go next time.  Great tips - thank you for sharing!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 02, 2014, 07:55:43 AM
Pythonic, I made my first deep-dish last night and I used your oil-first technique - I knew I had read it somewhere on this forum but I couldn't recall where.  But anyway, thank you!  My crust turned out beautifully (even though I underbaked it) and now that I've found this thread again I'm sure it will be even better next time!  I didn't have butter flavored Crisco but I may give that a go next time.  Great tips - thank you for sharing!

You're welcome.  Try it with the crisco on the pan next time.  Makes a big difference.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: The Dough Doctor on July 02, 2014, 08:30:36 AM
Shortening is used for Chicago style deep-dish pizzas while oil is used for Pizza Hut style pizzas. The biggest benefit to using a solid fat in the pan such as margarine, butter, shortening (Crisco/Butter Flavored Crisco, my personal favorite too) is that the dough really clings to the stuff making it a snap to pull the dough up the sides of the pan without the need to continually chase the dough pulling it back up after it slides back down into the bottom of the pan. Texturally, oil in the pan gives the finished crust an oily/fried appearance and feel while the solid fats impart a dry appearance to the crust , much like what we normally see on the sides and bottom of a loaf of store bought white pan bread. To apply the solid fat to the pan you can either brush or wipe it in using a paper towel or you can melt it and brush it in for a more uniform application. In a commercial setting we almost always melt or at least soften the fat and then brush it into the pans, but when I make deep-dish pizzas at home I always apply it right from the can using a piece of paper towel to wipe it around in the pan, makes clean up a little easier, just toss the paper towel in the trash, no need to wash the fat out of a pastry brush.
By the way, that is one VERY GOOD looking pizza!
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 06, 2014, 12:52:40 AM
"Here is the process.   I use a bowl, whisk for dry ingredients and a spoon.   Mix all dry ingredients minus the yeast.  Add oil and mix in halfway with spoon then add in the water.  Mix half way again and next sprinkle in the yeast.  Mix again with your spoon until it all comes together."



Thanks for this. Here's my question. The part where it says "Mix in halfway". How about a visual here. Some dry flour and some clumped with oil?

Reason I ask is I made this today and when I put the oil in first, I used a fork and worked the oil into the flour where the flour was fully saturated with oil. Then added water.  The end product was a little hard, not flaky like you describe.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 08, 2014, 11:50:53 PM
I tried again as I realized I left out the sugar and salt. Was great. I used 10% Semolina and was a little too bready. I think I'll go back to 20%.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Tampa on July 09, 2014, 08:14:00 AM
I've got to unsubscribe to this thread, those pictures... :drool:
Dave
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 10, 2014, 03:21:59 PM
Chicago bliss doc....Chicago bliss.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 11, 2014, 03:28:44 PM
"Here is the process.   I use a bowl, whisk for dry ingredients and a spoon.   Mix all dry ingredients minus the yeast.  Add oil and mix in halfway with spoon then add in the water.  Mix half way again and next sprinkle in the yeast.  Mix again with your spoon until it all comes together."



Thanks for this. Here's my question. The part where it says "Mix in halfway". How about a visual here. Some dry flour and some clumped with oil?

Reason I ask is I made this today and when I put the oil in first, I used a fork and worked the oil into the flour where the flour was fully saturated with oil. Then added water.  The end product was a little hard, not flaky like you describe.

Dr Matt,

Mix in halfway means just a partial mix.  You still want loose flour.  The crust should come out flaky.   It shouldn't be bready at all.  If it is you are over kneading.  I gently knead with one hand for 30-45 seconds.  Less semolina helps too.  20% makes it very stiff.  I use 5%, give that a shot.  What temp you baking at and for how long?  The crust should just a little bite too it.  Also try using some high quality bigger chunks of tomatoes (whole peeled plum or diced.  Muir Glen is decent). it elevates it greatly.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 11, 2014, 03:49:06 PM
You're correct Nate. I did over need it.  In fact, I remember saying the dough seemed nice and smooth more like my NY dough... after working it for a good 5 minutes.

I cook at 450 for 15m, rotate 180 degrees then a final 10m for 8" pie.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 11, 2014, 05:07:38 PM
You're correct Nate. I did over need it.  In fact, I remember saying the dough seemed nice and smooth more like my NY dough... after working it for a good 5 minutes.

I cook at 450 for 15m, rotate 180 degrees then a final 10m for 8" pie.

Try my bakers percents and do a gentle ultra short knead.  U won't regret it.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 05, 2014, 08:46:33 PM
14 inch I made the other night.  Need to use a little less dough next time and get those sides thinner.  All in all this pizza was really good though.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on August 05, 2014, 09:05:04 PM
What was the cook time and temp. Nate?  I just made another 8" this past weekend and had to bin it upon removal from the pan.  I put a "pancake" of sausage on it with the sauce on top and it must have worked as an insulator because when I took it out (25 min. @ 450ļ) it just slid apart and made a huge mess.  The crust was not fully done like my picture a few posts above. 

Also, how long do you wait to remove it from the pan after you take it out of the oven?

It's beautiful!  I'm jealous.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 05, 2014, 09:15:48 PM
What was the cook time and temp. Nate?  I just made another 8" this past weekend and had to bin it upon removal from the pan.  I put a "pancake" of sausage on it with the sauce on top and it must have worked as an insulator because when I took it out (25 min. @ 450ļ) it just slid apart and made a huge mess.  The crust was not fully done like my picture a few posts above. 

Also, how long do you wait to remove it from the pan after you take it out of the oven?

It's beautiful!  I'm jealous.

The bake time for this 14 inch was 35 mins at 450 degrees.  The key to keeping ur crust dry from grease or water from sauce is to use sliced cheese.  It forms a barrier.  Don't make the sausage patty too thick either.

For cool time I do about 5 mins in the pan and then I flip onto a cardboard insert to keep the bottom dry especially when you cut into it.  Cool for another 5 mins once out of pan.  Are you getting the crust thickness correct? 

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 05, 2014, 09:27:07 PM
A beauty as always Nate...nice pie!  :chef:

Matt, 25 min @ 450 should not have produced a slide apart pizza....are you sure your oven is coming to proper temps?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 05, 2014, 09:35:23 PM
A beauty as always Nate...nice pie!  :chef:

Matt, 25 min @ 450 should not have produced a slide apart pizza....are you sure your oven is coming to proper temps?

I'm thinking it was from a sausage grease bomb.   Happened to me before too.  Crust came out so soggy.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on August 05, 2014, 09:39:54 PM
I made a 9 incher thi weekend. Followed Nate's process. Baked 28 minutes at 450. No problems. Crust was not as tender as it could have been. I think I was too aggressive with the kneading. Still a good pie. Myself and my 6 and 7 year old daughters ate the entire pie.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 05, 2014, 09:42:46 PM
I'm thinking it was from a sausage grease bomb.   Happened to me before too.  Crust came out so soggy.

Nate
Yeah...Johnsonville will do that to ya.  ;D

Premio brand Mild....it rocks man.  8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on August 05, 2014, 10:01:26 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head Bob. I put a small stone on top of my steel plate in the oven. Thing is, the oven heated to 450 in 20 minutes but I don't believe the plate, therefore the stone did.  Live and learn.

Nate, could you explain in more detail for us challenged types how you get the pizza out of the pan. You said you flip it out?  I've tried with a pie thingie and it kinda works but I usually end up caving in the area where I pry it out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 05, 2014, 10:18:51 PM
I think you hit the nail on the head Bob. I put a small stone on top of my steel plate in the oven. Thing is, the oven heated to 450 in 20 minutes but I don't believe the plate, therefore the stone did.  Live and learn.

Nate, could you explain in more detail for us challenged types how you get the pizza out of the pan. You said you flip it out?  I've tried with a pie thingie and it kinda works but I usually end up caving in the area where I pry it out.

Matt,

Once it cools a bit I am able to just flip it out of the pan with just my hands.  You have to be careful though it it can crack upon hitting the surface.  Search on YouTube to see how the pizzerias do it.  They use a pan gripper and flip the pie out in the side of their pan using a spatula.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 05, 2014, 10:24:47 PM
I can catch the underside of the pizza with a butter knife....and then you have to do this sort of acrobatic move where you , while holding the pan with pot holder on opposite side you stick butter knife into/under crust...and make a flipping movement, pulling up on butter knife and jerking pan out from under pizza.   :o

But you know what? I have switched to now doing it just like in the restaurant.....use a steel spatula, cut you a slice and scoop it out with the spatula..  Oooo, ohhhh, ahhhh....look at the cool cheese stringy thingies!  8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Tampa on August 06, 2014, 07:26:59 AM
These are my people. ;D  Yum.
Chicago Dave
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 06, 2014, 08:06:12 AM
Great pie Wayne!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on August 06, 2014, 10:26:18 AM
 A couple of thoughts, for those new to this style.

Quote
What was the cook time and temp. Nate?

Time and temp is only ever a rough guide.  Know thine oven.  Every home oven is completely different.  One stone, two stones, steel plates, gas vs electric, varying recovery times, and on and on.  So use the given time and temp as starting points only...and then bake a lot of these up to perfect your own instance of any given recipe.   :chef:

For example, I have one of Ed's older DD formulations that works perfect for my tastes.  But the baking instructions say stone on bottom rack, preheat to 500, drop down to 450 before launching, and then bake for 35-40 minutes, rotating halfway through.  That doesn't work in my oven.  For my oven, pizza perfection is two stones--one high and one low--preheated to 450 with a drop to 425 for launching, with the pizza doing 20 minutes on the top stone then finishing for 10-12 minutes on the bottom stone and dropping the oven temp to 400.  IOW, it's finicky as hell but worth it.  And relaying that ridiculous amount of detailed information to someone else in the form of a recipe is only marginally helpful, unless they've been making some DD for a little while and have come to understand that the interplay between the pie and the home oven can sometimes be a delicate dance.

Remember, this is a 14-lb casserole you're trying to bake  ;D, and each ingredient has peculiarities about it (tomatoes with their relatively low char point due to sugars, a high fat crust to contend with, raw sausage that needs time to bake, and so on). 

HTH,
Garvey
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 06, 2014, 11:59:03 AM
Myself and my 6 and 7 year old daughters ate the entire pie.
That's impressive....some folks may not realize it but there is a lot of pizza in one of these lil 9in. pies.
And yours looks great Wayne, nice job!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on August 06, 2014, 12:06:39 PM
Great post Garvey :D

BTW, I've been using your modified Chicago sausage recipie and it is increrdible! 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on August 06, 2014, 01:19:22 PM
Thanks, Matt.  Glad you like it.

BTW, I didn't watch this whole video to vouch for its orthodoxy as far as the recipe goes, etc., but tune in at the 14:45 mark to see the technique of pie removal.  But I'm with C-Bob: most of the time, I just cut and serve from the pan itself.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTVx5hh8vS0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTVx5hh8vS0)

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 06, 2014, 01:54:23 PM
Ha! :)    He did the acrobatic flip thing I tried to explain above.

His crust sounded real good when he cut it and I liked the look of the whole slice he picked up.....that guy makes a pretty good DD pizza.
Thanks Garvey. :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on August 06, 2014, 11:17:22 PM
The video made me laugh. 2TABLESPOONS OF YEAST??? OMG!!!

I see the TX of flipping it out. That's easier on a larger pan than my 9" but mine has the step on the side that makes getting the spatula to the bottom a little more difficult.

Also, I would have no problem eating it out of the pan but I thought it would get a little soggy once you cut into it. I guess if you do it right, it won't last long enough to do so.  And I don't want to scratch up that finish.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 07, 2014, 10:57:07 AM
The video made me laugh. 2TABLESPOONS OF YEAST??? OMG!!!

I see the TX of flipping it out. That's easier on a larger pan than my 9" but mine has the step on the side that makes getting the spatula to the bottom a little more difficult.

Also, I would have no problem eating it out of the pan but I thought it would get a little soggy once you cut into it. I guess if you do it right, it won't last long enough to do so.  And I don't want to scratch up that finish.
If you have a wet pie from too many vegs......after removing first slice, place pot holder under opposite side of pan and put folded paper towel in pan where slice was.
You`re not going to hurt the surface of that hard anodized pan with a spatula, even a metal spatula.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 07, 2014, 06:27:56 PM
Ha! :)    He did the acrobatic flip thing I tried to explain above.

His crust sounded real good when he cut it and I liked the look of the whole slice he picked up.....that guy makes a pretty good DD pizza.
Thanks Garvey. :chef:

Was it stuffed like Giordanos?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 07, 2014, 06:32:56 PM
Was it stuffed like Giordanos?
The ones I do aren`t.....you know that.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 07, 2014, 07:55:45 PM
Raised the bar a little here if that's even possible.  I remember reading BTBs favorite formulation included rice flour.  I picked some up over a year ago and never used it.  I also wanted to go for a true Malnatis butter crust.  This pie turned out fantastic.  Notice how low that crust is (a Malnatis trademark) Probably the most comparable I have come to a BTB Malnatis creation.

9 inch formulation:

85.5% Gold Metal AP flour 158g
5.4% semolina flour - 10g
9.1% rice flour - 17g
46% water - 85g
14% corn oil - 26g
7% butter - 13g
1/4 and 1/8 IDY
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar

Preheat stone to 500.  Baked at 475 for 10 mins and 16 mins at 450.

Cheese: 12oz Mozz and Prov sliced
Tomatoes: Alta Cucina Plum tomatoes pulsed in FP 4 times

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 07, 2014, 08:08:10 PM
Saaweeet!   :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 07, 2014, 08:11:25 PM
That even looks great to me!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 07, 2014, 08:25:11 PM
This one was amazing guys.  The tomatoes are still key though to hitting that elite level.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: norma427 on August 07, 2014, 08:49:00 PM
Nate,

Looks great!

Norma
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on August 07, 2014, 08:51:34 PM
Nate,

Looks great!

Norma

Thanks Norma.  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 08, 2014, 12:08:46 AM
Nate, do you add salt or anything to the tomatoes? Or drain?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 09, 2014, 04:01:53 AM
Nate, do you add salt or anything to the tomatoes? Or drain?

Salt and oregano.  Yes I drain.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 09, 2014, 10:02:18 AM
Thanks Nate. Not to sound obsessive but when you drain, do you drain before you pulse in the FP, after or both?

And when do you put the seasoning in, before or after the drain/pulse?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 09, 2014, 10:21:26 AM
drain, after hand crush/FP.....that way you see what you`ve got.

season, after drain....that way you can taste what you`ve got.   :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 09, 2014, 02:22:11 PM
drain, after hand crush/FP.....that way you see what you`ve got.

season, after drain....that way you can taste what you`ve got.   :)

This works but you have to drain twice a lot.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 09, 2014, 07:38:18 PM
This works but you have to drain twice a lot.
Ok man...what does that mean?

I put the schmutz in the fine mesh sieve an let it go until water I want is drained.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 10, 2014, 04:16:08 PM
Ok man...what does that mean?

I put the schmutz in the fine mesh sieve an let it go until water I want is drained.

I drain from bowl by hand (smash and tilt method).  I find that mesh removes too much moisture.  I got this down to a science CB.  LOL
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 10, 2014, 06:57:46 PM
I drain from bowl by hand (smash and tilt method).  I find that mesh removes too much moisture.  I got this down to a science CB.  LOL
That you do.... ;D

Best DD pizza maker on this forum man.   8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 13, 2014, 08:25:34 PM
That you do.... ;D

Best DD pizza maker on this forum man.   8)

Thanks for the compliment but there is some tough competition here.  Would love to get together with some of the guys to have a cookoff.  I really want to try a pie made by BTB.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 11:27:23 AM
Nate can you please tell me what the thickness of your pizza is? I'm trying to use the conversion chart to convert this recipe to an 11" to bake in a superstore, and a 12" to bake in an aluminum pan.

Also your recipe on this page calls for 1/4 and 1/8 IDY?  I assume that meant 3/8 teaspoon? Thanks for answering so many questions!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 12:15:26 PM
Marty Runik,

What you want Nate to tell you is the size of his pan (upper and lower diameters), whether it is straight-sided or sloping-sided, the depth of the pan, and how far up the sides of the pan he pushes the dough. And you want the weight of the dough he used in his latest effort with his particular pan. Even then, some math will be needed to get all of the baker's percents right.

If Nate provides the answers, including to your question about the IDY, I think I can help you with the math. But I will need the same answers from you for your particular pans.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 30, 2014, 12:39:12 PM
Marty I use a straight sided pan that is 2 inches tall.  Yes I use 3/8 tsp of IDY.  I would guess that thickness factor is about .08

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 12:44:17 PM
Nate,

How far up the sides of the pan did you push the dough?

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 03:14:02 PM
Holy cow .08  no wonder my figures don't look right I was assuming a thickness of around 1/8" so I plugged in .125

My 11" and 12" DD pans are all 2" sides  and the dough goes all the way up. They all have flat bottoms with no slope.

I guess I have more to learn with the DD calculator. I assumed that plugging in the thickness factor along with the ingredient percentages  was all that was needed. I was using the percentages off the original thread where Nate first came up with this fantastic looking pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: woodmakesitgood on September 30, 2014, 03:20:59 PM
Nate,

How far up the sides of the pan did you push the dough?

Peter

Peter, when I used pythonic's recipe, the first time the dough was almost to the top rim and stayed there.
The second time, I tried to push it up that high, but it kept slogging back down about halfway. That dough had fermented a couple days I think, not a same day dough.

But in both pizzas, the cooked crust was up to the rim of the 2" pan.
The textures were pretty similar too...and tasty.

Charles

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 03:28:44 PM
Marty,

Based on my calculations, if Nate pushed the dough up the sides of his 9" pan for the full 2", the thickness factor is 0.097455. If the dough was pushed up the sides of the pan by 1.75", then the thickness factor would  be over 0.10. Hence the reason for my latest question to Nate.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 03:29:26 PM
Crisco butter flavr shortening on pan rim acts nearly like glue to hold your edge up.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 03:35:28 PM
Marty,

Based on my calculations, if Nate pushed the dough up the sides of his 9" pan for the full 2", the thickness factor is 0.097455. If the dough was pushed up the sides of the pan by 1.75", then the thickness factor would  be over 0.10. Hence the reason for my latest question to Nate.

Peter
II always just go by weight. After a couple pies you will quickly learn just where the dough needs to be pushed around to.    The `danger zone` is that area that always likes to build up too thick....right where the bottom of the pan meets the side of the pan....you cannot pinch that area down too much, believe me, it always grows .   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 03:54:36 PM
I recall seeing a Marc Malnati YouTube video where he pushed the dough only part way up the sides of the pan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Donjo911 on September 30, 2014, 04:01:00 PM
Thanks for posting that Peter.  He sure made that look significantly easier that when I tried  DD!  It also puts a good perspective on what the "right amount" of toppings/tomatoes a DD should have.  Mine have been sloppy messes for the most part :-D
Cheers,
Don
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 04:02:41 PM
I recall seeing a Marc Malnati YouTube video where he pushed the dough only part way up the sides of the pan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cH_ymnmarRU&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Peter
Another great thing about this awesome style of pizza.....make it like you want it....even only half way up the side of the pan is still pretty `deep` compared to a lot of pizzas. As long as you tile that cheese on the bottom....you can go nuts with this thing. Fun pizzamaking !    :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 04:21:44 PM
Here is another Malnati video showing the dough not being pushed up the entire side of the pan:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6t0t5qXLEU&feature=youtube_gdata_player (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6t0t5qXLEU&feature=youtube_gdata_player)

Peter


Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 30, 2014, 05:37:29 PM
Holy cow .08  no wonder my figures don't look right I was assuming a thickness of around 1/8" so I plugged in .125

My 11" and 12" DD pans are all 2" sides  and the dough goes all the way up. They all have flat bottoms with no slope.

I guess I have more to learn with the DD calculator. I assumed that plugging in the thickness factor along with the ingredient percentages  was all that was needed. I was using the percentages off the original thread where Nate first came up with this fantastic looking pizza.


Marty,

Disregard the .08.....let's see if Peteeza can figure it out. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 30, 2014, 05:38:37 PM
Nate,

How far up the sides of the pan did you push the dough?

Peter

A little more than half way.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 06:51:47 PM
Ok just to make sure i'm understanding this;

The thickness factor is the thickness of the dough before it goes in the pan.
 
The dough weight is the total amount of ALL ingredients right? So getting the dough ball weight is simply a matter of adding up all the individual  ingredients in a recipe?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 07:40:02 PM
Ok just to make sure i'm understanding this;

The thickness factor is the thickness of the dough before it goes in the pan.
 
The dough weight is the total amount of ALL ingredients right? So getting the dough ball weight is simply a matter of adding up all the individual  ingredients in a recipe?
Marty,

I will explain everything as I go through all of the math and calculations. But the thickness factor is not a direct measurement of actual thickness, so I will in due course refer you to an article on the subject. As for the last two questions, the answers are yes and yes.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 07:54:59 PM
Thanks a lot Peter. This forum has become an obsession for me. It's really great that so many of you experts will share your hard learned knowledge with newbies. Very few forums are as friendly and professional as this one.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 08:08:59 PM
Marty,

Starting with Nate's recipe as given at Reply 60 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137), I did some conversions of the ingredients given in volumes to weights and then calculated the individual bakers percents and the total dough ball weight. I then entered the bakers percents into the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html). For the entry box calling for the depth of the dough in the pan, I used 1.25", which is a bit over half of the depth of the pan (2").

Although I knew the total dough ball weight, I instead used the Thickness Factor option since it will be the thickness factor that you will need to make your pizzas with different size pans. So, starting with an empty Thickness Factor entry box, I started entering values until I got the same values of ingredients that Nate used in his recipe. In this case, the thickness factor I ended up with was 0.119943. In baker's percent format, this is what Nate's recipe looks like:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (46%):
IDY (0.611%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Corn Oil (14%):
Butter (7%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (168.90398%):
185 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
85.1 g  |  3 oz | 0.19 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
25.9 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.76 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
12.95 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
312.47 g | 11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = 0.119943
* The Flour Blend comprises 85.5% Gold Medal All-purpose flour (159 grams), 5.4% semolina flour (10 grams), and 9.1% rice flour (17 grams), for a total of 185 grams
Note: The dough (312.47 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 9" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.103798; no bowl residue compensation

For your pizzas, you will want to enter the above baker's percents into the deep-dish dough calculating tool along with the above thickness factor and your pan sizes and shapes (straight-sided or sloping-sided) and the depth of the dough up the sides of the pan that you plan to use. In other words, you will complete all of the entries of the deep-dish dough calculating tool. Remember, also, that the Flour Blend for your pizzas will be different than what Nate used, so you will have to apply the percents of the flours that Nate used (85.5%, 5.4% and 9.1%) to your particular value of the Flour Blend to get the specific weights of the all-purpose flour, the semolina flour, and the rice flour, respectively. 

If you need help, or if you want me to check what you end up with, let me know. But I will need to know the entries you use in the boxes that are not reflected in the output data to that I can recreate what you did. 

Peter

9/30/14: Edited to correct the thickness factor and to reflect that the dough is pressed into the pan to 1.25"
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 08:47:56 PM
Marty,

Here is an article by Tom Lehmann on thickness factor:
 
http://web.archive.org/web/20110820052532/http://pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php (http://web.archive.org/web/20110820052532/http://pmq.com/mag/2004november_december/lehmann.php)

Tom calls it dough loading but I decided long ago not to use that term because it was too techy and might discourage members from learning what it is and how it works. For more on the subject, you might check out this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17813.msg172515#msg172515 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=17813.msg172515#msg172515).

The thickness factor I set forth in my last post is definitely in the ballpark for the Chicago deep-dish style. See Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.msg115759;topicseen#msg115759 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.msg115759;topicseen#msg115759).

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 30, 2014, 09:17:00 PM
Well done Peter.

So now I'm dying to know, how much flour for an 11" pan?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 09:28:07 PM
OK for a 12" DD
104 thickness factor
1 ball
straight sided
2" sides
46% hydration
yeast .611
salt .75
corn oil 14%
sugar .54
0 bowl residue

Dough ingredients:

Flour (100%):    326.11 g  |  11.5 oz | 0.72 lbs
Semolina ( 5.4%)  47.28 g
Rice Flour (9.1%)  29.68  g
Water (46%):    150.01 g  |  5.29 oz | 0.33 lbs
IDY (.611%):    1.99 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.66 tsp | 0.22 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.45 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    45.66 g | 1.61 oz | 0.1 lbs | 10.15 tsp | 3.38 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.76 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.44 tsp | 0.15 tbsp
Total (161.901%):   527.97 g | 18.62 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.104

Did I do the math right on the flour composition?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 09:58:25 PM
Marty,

I just discovered that I made an error in my previous work on the degree to which Nate pressed the dough up the sides of the pan. I used 1.6" instead of something like 1.25", or "a little more than half way" as Nate put it. Let me work the numbers and post Nate's formulation again. However, in your formulation, you forgot the butter. Also, your formulation indicates that you plan to push the dough up the sides of the pan to the entire depth of 2". Is that what you want to do, or do you want to do what Nate did?

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 09:59:08 PM
Dangit I screwed up! forgot the butter here is the revised numbers;
OK for a 12" DD
104 thickness factor
1 ball
straight sided
2" sides
46% hydration
yeast .611
salt .75
corn oil 14%
butter 7%
sugar .54
0 bowl residue

Dough ingredients:

Flour (100%):    312.59 g  |  11.03 oz | 0.69 lbs
Water (46%):    143.79 g  |  5.07 oz | 0.32 lbs
IDY (.611%):    1.91 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.63 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.34 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    43.76 g | 1.54 oz | 0.1 lbs | 9.73 tsp | 3.24 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (7%):    21.88 g | 0.77 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.63 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.69 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Total (168.901%):   527.97 g | 18.62 oz | 1.16 lbs | TF = 0.104
Did I do the math right on the flour composition?
Modify message
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 10:05:58 PM
thickness factor......smickness factor......stop chasing your tail and grab a weighed hunk of dough and become a believer/chicago pizza maker. this is easy peazzy man......win....don`t whine.   ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 10:18:06 PM
Marty,

Here is the corrected formulation for what Nate did:

Flour Blend*(100%):
Water (46%):
IDY (0.611%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Corn Oil (14%):
Butter (7%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (168.90398%):
185 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
85.1 g  |  3 oz | 0.19 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
25.9 g | 0.91 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.76 tsp | 1.92 tbsp
12.95 g | 0.46 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
312.47 g | 11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs | TF = 0.119943
* The Flour Blend comprises 85.5% Gold Medal All-purpose flour (159 grams), 5.4% semolina flour (10 grams), and 9.1% rice flour (17 grams), for a total of 185 grams
Note: The dough (312.47 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 9" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.119943; no bowl residue compensation

You will note that the thickness factor went up to 0.119943. That is well within the range for a Chicago deep-dish pizza.

I will correct my earlier post to reflect the changes, and I will await your next iteration.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 30, 2014, 10:20:04 PM
Well done
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 10:22:15 PM
Now that I know thickness factor has little to do with the thickness of the pizza I will be dealing with dough weight from now on, at least until I have a better understanding of how the various conversions work.

Wouldn't it be easier to just have a multiple for the various types of pizzas so if you wanted to go from say a 9" to a 12" pizza with the same sides you just multiply all the ingredients by that multiple and your good to go? It might not be quite as accurate on dough amounts but it sure looks easier? I wonder how long it took Pete to become so familiar with all the complexities.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 10:34:18 PM
+1
Well said dare Bob! ;-D
Thank you....this style is probably THE most fun one to create.  But you gotta roll up your sleeves and get down an dirty. It is soooo forgiving....after a few trial runs....you are making Golden pizza with which to impress your family and friends ! [love that saying!].    8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 10:40:27 PM
Ok heres the new one

Dough Ingredients

Total Flour Blend  (100%):    360.68 g  |  12.72 oz | 0.8 lbs
KAAP  ( 85.5%) 308.4 gr
Semoliona  (5.4%) 19.5 gr
Rice Flour (9.1%)  32.8 gr

Water (46%):    165.91 g  |  5.85 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.611%):    2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    50.5 g | 1.78 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.22 tsp | 3.74 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (7%):    25.25 g | 0.89 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.34 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (168.901%):   609.2 g | 21.49 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.12

How's my flour blend math?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 10:44:58 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just have a multiple for the various types of pizzas so if you wanted to go from say a 9" to a 12" pizza with the same sides you just multiply all the ingredients by that multiple and your good to go? It might not be quite as accurate on dough amounts but it sure looks easier? I wonder how long it took Pete to become so familiar with all the complexities.
Marty,

Normally, one might choose to start out with a dough weight but in this case I had to work backwards from the answer to figure out what thickness factor Nate used. I had no other choice. Knowing that value allows one to make any size pizza with different types of pans, etc., and end up with a crust with the same general characteristics of the original recipe. I assume that is what you wanted. 

There may be a way of extrapolating from one size pizza to another but there are so many variables, such as the shape of the pans, the depth to which the dough is pressed up the sides of the pans, etc., that it would be a complex set of conversions.

The reason I know so much about the deep-dish dough calculating tool is because I did the basic design. Mike (BoyHitsCar) did the coding. My feelings are not hurt if people do not use the tool.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on September 30, 2014, 11:02:46 PM
Well I definitely want to learn as it's a great tool to vary sizes.

BTW  when a recipe has weights and percentages, but for yeast salt and sugar use teaspoon measurements, is it best to take the ratio that the flour went up or down and increase or decrease the teaspoon measurements by this same amount?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 11:04:13 PM
Ok heres the new one

Dough Ingredients

Total Flour Blend  (100%):    360.68 g  |  12.72 oz | 0.8 lbs
KAAP  ( 85.5%) 308.4 gr
Semolina  (5.4%) 19.5 gr
Rice Flour (9.1%)  32.8 gr

Water (46%):    165.91 g  |  5.85 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.611%):    2.2 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
Salt (.75%):    2.71 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.48 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Corn Oil (14%):    50.5 g | 1.78 oz | 0.11 lbs | 11.22 tsp | 3.74 tbsp
Butter/Margarine (7%):    25.25 g | 0.89 oz | 0.06 lbs | 5.34 tsp | 1.78 tbsp
Sugar (.54%):    1.95 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Total (168.901%):   609.2 g | 21.49 oz | 1.34 lbs | TF = 0.12

How's my flour blend math?
Marty,

You rounded your numbers so they are a bit different than mine but you did everything correctly, including the Flour Blend calculation. However, your calculations indicate that you plan to push the dough all the way up the sides of the pan (2"), not to about 1.25" like Nate did. Using 1.25", this is what I get:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (46%):
IDY (0.611%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Corn Oil (14%):
Butter (7%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (168.90398%):
303.58 g  |  10.71 oz | 0.67 lbs
139.65 g  |  4.93 oz | 0.31 lbs
1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
42.5 g | 1.5 oz | 0.09 lbs | 9.44 tsp | 3.15 tbsp
21.25 g | 0.75 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.49 tsp | 1.5 tbsp
1.64 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
512.77 g | 18.09 oz | 1.13 lbs | TF = 0.119943
* The Flour Blend comprises 85.5% Gold Medal All-purpose flour (259.6 grams), 5.4% semolina flour (16.4 grams), and 9.1% rice flour (27.6 grams), for a total of 303.6 grams
Note: The dough (512.77 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 12" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.119943; no bowl residue compensation

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 30, 2014, 11:05:42 PM
Marty,

Normally, one might choose to start out with a dough weight but in this case I had to work backwards from the answer to figure out what thickness factor Nate used. I had no other choice. Knowing that value allows one to make any size pizza with different types of pans, etc., and end up with a crust with the same general characteristics of the original recipe. I assume that is what you wanted. 

There may be a way of extrapolating from one size pizza to another but there are so many variables, such as the shape of the pans, the depth to which the dough is pressed up the sides of the pans, etc., that it would be a complex set of conversions.

The reason I know so much about the deep-dish dough calculating tool is because I did the basic design. Mike (BoyHitsCar) did the coding. My feelings are not hurt if people do not use the tool.

Peter
We are dealing with 3 basic pan diameter sizes here....any fool knows we are using a 1 1/2 in. sided pan....that is regulation.   3 different weights man.   :)

But God luv ya Peter....you are capable of the math so that one can use a 4in. sided pan if they so choose....and as always, Bob tips his hat to your knowledge/contributions sir. Thanks ole dude!!   8)

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 11:10:10 PM
BTW  when a recipe has weights and percentages, but for yeast salt and sugar use teaspoon measurements, is it best to take the ratio that the flour went up or down and increase or decrease the teaspoon measurements by this same amount?
Marty,

I use conversion data that I developed for the deep-dish dough calculating tool, and the other dough calculating tools as well, to convert volume measurements such as Nate used to weights and I then calculated the baker's percents, which Nate did not provide. From that point on, the weights of the lesser ingredients are scaled up or down automatically.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 30, 2014, 11:23:51 PM
As a side note, on one of the Malnatis' videos, he said he doesn't use fennel in his sausage. I don't recall the taste of their sausage since its been 25 plus years since I've had their pizza.

Anyone care to comment on that?  Garvey?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on September 30, 2014, 11:24:42 PM
Bob,

If you look at the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html), you will see that there is a rectangular pan option. At the time that Mike and I were working on the deep-dish dough calculating tool, we wondered whether we should have that option since we had never heard of a rectangular (or square) Chicago style deep-dish pizza. This was after having done a rather extensive search to see if such a pizza existed. However, I was aware of work along similar lines at Rocky Rococo in the Midwest (see http://www.rockyrococo.com/ (http://www.rockyrococo.com/)), so we decided to leave that option in even if no one ever used it. Our job was to find solutions that helped the members out.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on October 01, 2014, 12:03:58 AM
So Pete is there anywhere you can go to read up on the basics of the math you use for all this? I'd like to be able to take a recipe that gives weight measurements only and go up or down in size. if something happens to you, how are the rest of us going to do these fancy conversions :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on October 01, 2014, 09:31:54 AM
As a side note, on one of the Malnatis' videos, he said he doesn't use fennel in his sausage. I don't recall the taste of their sausage since its been 25 plus years since I've had their pizza.

Anyone care to comment on that?  Garvey?

That's true.  Their sausage is from Anichini Brothers (http://www.anichinibrothers.com/), which is, alas, a wholesaler only.

However, I am of the philosophy of using whatever sausage I like.  So I go with fennel.

Peace,
Garvey

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on October 01, 2014, 10:20:03 AM
So Pete is there anywhere you can go to read up on the basics of the math you use for all this? I'd like to be able to take a recipe that gives weight measurements only and go up or down in size. if something happens to you, how are the rest of us going to do these fancy conversions :)
Marty,

If a recipe is stated in weights, then it is just a simple matter of converting the recipe to baker's percent format. If you are not familiar with baker's percents, there are many articles on the subject all over the Internet. However, one of our members did a nice job explaining baker's percents at http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/bakers-percentage-calculator (http://www.mightypizzaoven.com/bakers-percentage-calculator). If the ingredients are common ingredients as are used in pizza making, then you can enter the baker's percents in one of the dough calculating tools and scale up or down as you wish. The most basic dough calculating tool for flat pizzas is the Lehmann dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-calculator.html). Once you get into less common ingredients, the best tool for that purpose on the forum is the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html). That tool has over forty different ingredients. It took a lot of time and work to come up with the volume-to-weight conversions for that many ingredients. There are some good places for helping do that, such as at http://nutritiondata.self.com/ (http://nutritiondata.self.com/), but the NutritionDataSelf website does not have every ingredient in its database, so you use product labels to calculate the conversion factors or you weigh volume samples on a small, accurate scale. Mike and I used all three of these methods. In some cases, where there were many sources of ingredients, such as vital wheat gluten, we averaged the conversion factors.

All of the tools, including the others listed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-tools.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough-tools.html), allow users to work with dough weights or thickness factors. Calculating thickness factors for flat pizzas is easy if you know a particular dough ball weight and the size of pizza to be made with the dough. The thickness factor calculation is:

TF = (Dough ball weight)/(3.14159 x R x R), where R is the radius of the pizza.

Thickness factor calculations become more difficult for a deep-dish pizza because there is dough that covers both the bottom of the pan and the sides of the pan, and the dough can be pushed up either to the top of the pan or somewhere in between. The calculation is pretty straightforward if the pan has straight sides, but the math becomes more complicated if the sides of the pan are sloped (they are trapezoids). That was the hardest part of the design of the deep-dish dough calculating tool and we struggled on how to do that but after much head scratching Mike came through with a solution for doing the calculation. Of all of the dough calculating tools, the deep-dish dough calculating tool was the hardest to create and is the most unique of all of the dough calculating tools. I have not seen such a tool anywhere although Aimless Ryan (Ryan) created his own spreadsheet version. He prefers his tool over ours because, among other things, he can vary the thickness factor for both the bottom of the pan and the sides. That might be useful for a Malnati type deep-dish pizza since the dough is shaped in the pan by hand. It would not be needed for skins that are formed by machines (sheeters/rollers) and have a uniform thickness, as is done at, say, Giordano's.

There will always be cases that do not fit the above tools or methods. In those cases, you usually end up using pencil and paper and a calculator and whatever else you can find on the Internet. 

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Marty Runik on October 01, 2014, 12:12:06 PM
Thanks again Peter.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on October 01, 2014, 01:45:32 PM

It's back!  Hey Spider!! :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 01, 2014, 01:51:36 PM
It's back!  Hey Spider!! :-D
Yeah, prolly shouldn`t have said it then though.....didn`t realize Peter was on a roll discussing something that is important to some folks. Sorry Peter.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on October 01, 2014, 02:03:31 PM
I guess that will teach me to be a Good Samaritan again.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 01, 2014, 02:09:50 PM
I guess that will teach me to be a Good Samaritan again.

Peter
C`mon Peter...you are soo much more than a Good Samaritan around here......you are the King.
Please don`t have me beheaded.  :-[
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on October 31, 2014, 12:25:32 PM
Nate,

Where do you get the Alta Cucina tomatoes from?

Joel
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on November 01, 2014, 01:34:52 PM
Nate,

Where do you get the Alta Cucina tomatoes from?

Joel

Restaurant Depot.  Giant can for $4.  Restaurant Depot is for food businesses or non for profit organizations.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: David Esq. on November 02, 2014, 06:00:36 AM
I would suggest trying coconut oil over crisco and see what you think. Get a nice coconut oil from Costco - they carry either Nutiva or Carrington Farms depending on location. I can't imagine what butter flavored crisco contains.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on November 03, 2014, 04:41:04 PM
I would suggest trying coconut oil over crisco and see what you think. Get a nice coconut oil from Costco - they carry either Nutiva or Carrington Farms depending on location. I can't imagine what butter flavored crisco contains.

Malnatis uses corn oil but the crisco gives it an extra crunch.  Just vegetable fats in shortening.  Never tried coconut oil b4.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: David Esq. on November 03, 2014, 07:09:14 PM
Nothing hydrogenated and nothing artificial.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: derricktung on November 24, 2014, 06:50:14 PM
I'll be curious to your coconut oil results as well... I find that when I use coconut oil, all my dishes have a pretty strong coconut taste... which I think would be a bad clash for pizza.  Perhaps I"m just using the wrong brand though...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: David Esq. on December 13, 2014, 09:53:30 PM

I'll be curious to your coconut oil results as well... I find that when I use coconut oil, all my dishes have a pretty strong coconut taste... which I think would be a bad clash for pizza.  Perhaps I"m just using the wrong brand though...
There are many kinds of coconut oil. The raw unrefined has the coconut flavor and odor.  I really like it whenever I have used it. You can also buy refined coconut oil which has the odor and smell removed. But you still want a high quality oil like Nutiva refined if you want flavorless oil.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: atx100r on January 08, 2015, 04:13:40 PM
Hi Pythonic...New to the thread and I've been trying to piece your recipe together, as its changed several times and linked to in various places.  What I think is the final one is

85.5% Gold Metal AP flour 158g
5.4% semolina flour - 10g
9.1% rice flour - 17g
46% water - 85g
14% corn oil - 26g
7% butter - 13g
1/4 and 1/8 IDY
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar

I now only use 21% oil.  (75% corn and 25% olive)

The question I have is regarding the oil.  The recipe says Corn and Butter (I'm assuming butter is melted).  But you also have a note saying corn and olive.  I was wonder what gave you the best results.  I also saw your post on You-Tube regarding the mixing and it looks like you just used oil (guessing corn and olive as noted above).  Perhaps if you had the time you would post the definitive recipe and process all at once.  It would be greatly appreciated.  Your pizzas look fantastic by the way.  I don't live close to Chicago any more but my wife got me 3 Lous frozen sausage for my birthday.  I have already eaten them all.  Looking at the pictures yours look spot on.  Thanks D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 08, 2015, 07:30:57 PM
Hi Pythonic...New to the thread and I've been trying to piece your recipe together, as its changed several times and linked to in various places.  What I think is the final one is

85.5% Gold Metal AP flour 158g
5.4% semolina flour - 10g
9.1% rice flour - 17g
46% water - 85g
14% corn oil - 26g
7% butter - 13g
1/4 and 1/8 IDY
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 tsp sugar

I now only use 21% oil.  (75% corn and 25% olive)

The question I have is regarding the oil.  The recipe says Corn and Butter (I'm assuming butter is melted).  But you also have a note saying corn and olive.  I was wonder what gave you the best results.  I also saw your post on You-Tube regarding the mixing and it looks like you just used oil (guessing corn and olive as noted above).  Perhaps if you had the time you would post the definitive recipe and process all at once.  It would be greatly appreciated.  Your pizzas look fantastic by the way.  I don't live close to Chicago any more but my wife got me 3 Lous frozen sausage for my birthday.  I have already eaten them all.  Looking at the pictures yours look spot on.  Thanks D

D,

The recipe I use the most doesn't have any rice flour in it or butter.  This was just an experiment.  Melted butter however can be applied to the formed crust before applying the filling.  See below:

9 inch pan
94.6% AP flour
5.4% semolina flour
46% warm water
21% oil (3/4 corn, 1/4 olive)
1/4 tsp sugar
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 + 1/8 tsp IDY

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 08, 2015, 07:38:29 PM
D,

The recipe I use the most doesn't have any rice flour in it or butter.  This was just an experiment.  Melted butter however can be applied to the formed crust before applying the filling.  See below:

9 inch pan
94.6% AP flour
5.4% semolina flour
46% warm water
21% oil (3/4 corn, 1/4 olive)
1/4 tsp sugar
1/4 tsp salt
1/4 + 1/8 tsp IDY

Nate
What a ya know...I jus so happen to have that deal proofing in a warm oven as we post.  8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 08, 2015, 07:40:35 PM
What a ya know...I jus so happen to have that deal proofing in a warm oven as we post.  8)

Nice Bob.  Pics or it didn't happen as usual.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 08, 2015, 07:45:05 PM
Nice Bob.  Pics or it didn't happen as usual.
You ever par baked one of these crusts?  Was looking at Trenton Bill's DD he made for Norma....looked pretty good. My last couple try's with yours I couldn't get the lamination/layers.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on January 08, 2015, 07:57:28 PM
Here was mine from last weekend :chef:
Sure was tasty!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 08, 2015, 08:00:18 PM
Noice.  8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on January 09, 2015, 06:43:34 AM
Nate,

Is the total amount of flours 168 grams or 185 grams (or something else)?

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 09, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
Nate,

Is the total amount of flours 168 grams or 185 grams (or something else)?

Peter

185g
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 09, 2015, 01:01:02 PM
Matt has become a pro at these I see.  Great work!

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 09, 2015, 01:03:32 PM
You ever par baked one of these crusts?  Was looking at Trenton Bill's DD he made for Norma....looked pretty good. My last couple try's with yours I couldn't get the lamination/layers.

No I never par baked one before. I think the crust would over cook for this style.  Higher hydration and less oil may work though but what's the point really?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on January 09, 2015, 01:16:08 PM
Matt has become a pro at these I see.  Great work!

Nate

I had a great teacher.  Thanx Nate!  ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 09, 2015, 04:58:50 PM
My almost 8 year old daughter has requested that I make another one of these pies. Can't say no to that!  ;D

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 09, 2015, 10:09:10 PM
My almost 8 year old daughter has requested that I make another one of these pies. Can't say no to that!  ;D

Wayne

Haha.  She has very good taste.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: atx100r on January 10, 2015, 09:14:52 AM
Thanks Nate I'm going to give this a shot tomorrow. ..Would be great to have a lot's and watch the pack get beat....well 1 out 2 would be great also.

D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 10, 2015, 02:41:03 PM
Thanks Nate I'm going to give this a shot tomorrow. ..Would be great to have a lot's and watch the pack get beat....well 1 out 2 would be great also.

D

Hate the pack.  Viking fan here.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: atx100r on January 13, 2015, 10:05:22 AM
So i did 2 9" Pizzas on Sunday.  Overall very good but I did make on error.  I didn't have any Corn Oil so I used Canola.  pizza had a bit of an Oily after taste.  Not sure if this was form the Canola or the Butter flavored Crisco I used to grease the ban.  Kids ate it up.  The texture of the crust is spot on.  The sausage is close but missing something perhaps pepper.  Had a hell of a time finding Semolina flour where I'm at not to mention the tomatoes brands you guys recommend so had to wing it there and got some imported Plum.  Any input and or advise would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: atx100r on January 13, 2015, 10:05:56 AM
And another
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 13, 2015, 10:40:39 AM
I have been making this recipe once a week for over a month now......delicious!
The alta cucina tomatoes and Mancuso cheese really make this work.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 13, 2015, 11:36:01 AM
Here are some pics.......
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mudman on January 13, 2015, 08:48:36 PM
Looks GREAT!!!!!!!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 14, 2015, 05:13:37 PM
I have been making this recipe once a week for over a month now......delicious!
The alta cucina tomatoes and Mancuso cheese really make this work.

Very nice.  I'm glad you were able to find a source for those tomatoes.  Are you getting them outside of RD?  I have yet to try that cheese yet.  I need to pick some up since they are less then 5 mins away.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 14, 2015, 06:56:50 PM
I found someone at my work that has a membership and borrowed their card but Mancuso's also carries them.  They also have tomato magic which I have been mixing in with the alta cucinas to make my sauce (I will post the recipe soon).  I guarantee you will not be disappointed with the cheese from Mancuso's.

Also, pick up some of their Scamorza while you are there.  I have been mixing in 1-2 oz on top of the mozz on my thin crust pizzas and the results are quite tasty.

Joel

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 14, 2015, 08:15:33 PM
I found someone at my work that has a membership and borrowed their card but Mancuso's also carries them.  They also have tomato magic which I have been mixing in with the alta cucinas to make my sauce (I will post the recipe soon).  I guarantee you will not be disappointed with the cheese from Mancuso's.

Also, pick up some of their Scamorza while you are there.  I have been mixing in 1-2 oz on top of the mozz on my thin crust pizzas and the results are quite tasty.

Joel

How much is their mozzarella per pound?  Your cheese definitely looks better than what I am getting at RD but hard to beat that $2/lb price.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 14, 2015, 08:45:45 PM
I think it is $3 per pound.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 14, 2015, 09:44:10 PM
How did the mancuso cheese taste?  Was it whole or part, and was it creamy and slightly salty or sweet?  Looks pretty good.  I am out of cheese as was going to head down town chicago to get some but thinking of heading over to joilet to try this stuff out...$3 per pound is pretty costly though....
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 14, 2015, 09:57:08 PM
I think it is $3 per pound.

That isn't bad at all really.  Gas and tolls to RD equals about that for me.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 14, 2015, 09:59:59 PM
So i did 2 9" Pizzas on Sunday.  Overall very good but I did make on error.  I didn't have any Corn Oil so I used Canola.  pizza had a bit of an Oily after taste.  Not sure if this was form the Canola or the Butter flavored Crisco I used to grease the ban.  Kids ate it up.  The texture of the crust is spot on.  The sausage is close but missing something perhaps pepper.  Had a hell of a time finding Semolina flour where I'm at not to mention the tomatoes brands you guys recommend so had to wing it there and got some imported Plum.  Any input and or advise would be appreciated.

Looks excellent. Definitely go buy some corn oil for your next attempt.  The flavor is different.  Couldn't imagine what the canola would taste like.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 14, 2015, 10:02:10 PM
That isn't bad at all really.  Gas and tolls to RD equals about that for me.
   Right down the street from you.  ;D  https://www.google.com/maps/place/Mancuso+Cheese+Co/@41.518098,-88.1152253,12z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x70d042dc71e13e0d
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 14, 2015, 10:21:59 PM
It is creamy and very stringy when you pull a piece out after cutting. It has a slight salty taste which I love. I know it is expensive but this is the only cheese I will use from now on.  Almost everyone that has tried my pizzas after I started using this cheese has asked what I did differently. 

This cheese is not as soft as other mozzarella brands I have tried before. It seems much more dense and a little more dried out.

Here is the back story to why I researched and tried this cheese. The golf course that I work at during the summer months hired a chef that used to work for Vito and Nicks. He eventually started making pizzas and the course even tried to start a carry out/delivery business for the pizzas out of the kitchen. Now this is years before I started making pizzas and before I discovered this website. Eventually the chef was let go for other reasons but his recipe remained at the course. After I started making pizzas on my own I started talking to the GM and also noticed the cheese in the cooler. I asked him about it and he said they have been using it for years and when they switched to a cheaper cheese customers noticed. I also noticed a sign for this cheese at Enzo's pizza in Homer Glen where I live. I looked them up on the old Internet, saw that they have a small store attached to their factory, gave it a try and absolutely love the results.

Sorry for the long post but I need to add some more. I am positive my pizzas would be garbage without the members of this forum and the knowledge you guys and gals have given me. I owe you a debt of gratitude and look forward to hopefully contributing more to this site and making delicious pizzas. THANK YOU!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 14, 2015, 11:42:29 PM
Great background info and thank you.....will have to try it.....seems like it might be part skim mozzarella due to the dryness maybe.....
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 12:08:45 PM
Nate, I am making two 9 inch pies this evening.  Should I just double the recipe and divide before balling? Or would it be best to make separate batches, to keep the mixing/kneading process in line?

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 17, 2015, 03:29:00 PM
Nate, I am making two 9 inch pies this evening.  Should I just double the recipe and divide before balling? Or would it be best to make separate batches, to keep the mixing/kneading process in line?

Wayne

I always make 2 at a time and just double the recipe.  They always turn out great!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 09:55:53 PM
I just went ahead and made two separate batches. It is a quick process, so no big deal. Turned out good.  I don't make these often enough to get really good at it. I should throw these in the mix a little more often.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 17, 2015, 09:59:32 PM
I just went ahead and made two separate batches. It is a quick process, so no big deal. Turned out good.  I don't make these often enough to get really good at it. I should throw these in the mix a little more often.

  That looks good Wayne...real good.  :chef:    What did you coat/schmear your pans with before placing dough in them?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 10:04:09 PM
Thanks, Bob.  Just regular Crisco shortening. I want to try the Butter Flavored, but I don't make these often enough to buy a big can of it. I have not seen it in a smaller can, like the regular can be found in.  Dough stuck like glue to the pan. No sliding down the sides.  :D

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 17, 2015, 10:09:09 PM
Thanks, Bob.  Just regular Crisco shortening. I want to try the Butter Flavored, but I don't make these often enough to buy a big can of it. I have not seen it in a smaller can, like the regular can be found in.  Dough stuck like glue to the pan. No sliding down the sides.  :D

Wayne

   Thanks, I used plain ole Crisco the other night too but didn't get the nicer "airier" look your sides have,  If you don't mind...what combined fats % did you use on this one?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 10:19:43 PM
Bob, just Corn Oil in the dough. Was supposed to be 21%, but I messed up and only did 20%.  37 grams of oil in 185 grams of flour.

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 17, 2015, 10:25:30 PM


   What temp you bake this at Wayne....did you take a crumb pic?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 10:33:08 PM
Preheated the oven and stone to 425, then kicked it up to 450. Baked for 28 minutes.  Sorry, no crumb shot. I was busy tending to my little "crumb snatchers "  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 17, 2015, 10:40:24 PM
Ok, thanks man....it's a good looking DD.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on January 17, 2015, 11:11:14 PM
FYI Wayne, you can get these "stick of butter" size at Walmart. I think they come in a 3 pack.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 17, 2015, 11:14:44 PM
Thanks.  I saw those, but wondered if it was the same as the canned stuff. That would be a good alternative to buying a big can.

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 19, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Nate, I am making two 9 inch pies this evening.  Should I just double the recipe and divide before balling? Or would it be best to make separate batches, to keep the mixing/kneading process in line?

Wayne

Wayne,

Double will be fine.  Just divide in half before rise.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 19, 2015, 07:06:56 PM
Thanks, Nate.  I will try that next time.  These latest pies were really good.  I just need more practice to get the toppings dialed in.  My girls, and my sister really enjoyed them.

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on January 19, 2015, 07:15:47 PM
   Thanks, I used plain ole Crisco the other night too but didn't get the nicer "airier" look your sides have,  If you don't mind...what combined fats % did you use on this one?

I noticed the airier look too Bob.  I'm guessing he formed the dough in the pan and let it sit a while where the dough got a little rise and puffed up.  Am I correct Wayne?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 19, 2015, 07:22:24 PM
I pressed the dough into the pans, and proceeded to build the pies. There was not a lot of time involved. I was actually rushing to get the pies in the oven. I was hungry!

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 20, 2015, 07:14:43 PM
FYI Wayne, you can get these "stick of butter" size at Walmart. I think they come in a 3 pack.

Yes,this is the exact same stuff, just different packaging.....
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on January 20, 2015, 07:18:02 PM
It is creamy and very stringy when you pull a piece out after cutting. It has a slight salty taste which I love. I know it is expensive but this is the only cheese I will use from now on.  Almost everyone that has tried my pizzas after I started using this cheese has asked what I did differently. 

This cheese is not as soft as other mozzarella brands I have tried before. It seems much more dense and a little more dried out.

Here is the back story to why I researched and tried this cheese. The golf course that I work at during the summer months hired a chef that used to work for Vito and Nicks. He eventually started making pizzas and the course even tried to start a carry out/delivery business for the pizzas out of the kitchen. Now this is years before I started making pizzas and before I discovered this website. Eventually the chef was let go for other reasons but his recipe remained at the course. After I started making pizzas on my own I started talking to the GM and also noticed the cheese in the cooler. I asked him about it and he said they have been using it for years and when they switched to a cheaper cheese customers noticed. I also noticed a sign for this cheese at Enzo's pizza in Homer Glen where I live. I looked them up on the old Internet, saw that they have a small store attached to their factory, gave it a try and absolutely love the results.

Sorry for the long post but I need to add some more. I am positive my pizzas would be garbage without the members of this forum and the knowledge you guys and gals have given me. I owe you a debt of gratitude and look forward to hopefully contributing more to this site and making delicious pizzas. THANK YOU!

I called them today he stated they have 2 types of mozzarella.  A 3.5 % and a lower fat about 1%.  So, I assume that is their version of whole milk mozzarella and part skim.  I am going to try both...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 20, 2015, 10:32:59 PM
I never thought to ask them. I always just grab the big brick of mozz from their fridge. Very interested to hear your thoughts.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 22, 2015, 12:02:16 AM
I have 2 questions:
I live in the Chicago area and have tried Mancuso twice and have found it to be very oily with little flavor. Do you think I am doing something wrong? I've only tried it on thin crust, but reading the glowing reviews, I know I must be missing something. I get puddles of oil when I use this cheese. It is used at many places but I can't get good results.

I have a Lou location 10 minutes from my house and that's the one pizza I don't mind paying for. I've made every type of pizza except this type due to being so close to Lou's I never wanted to mess with it. Does this recipe improve on Lou's?

Tom
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 22, 2015, 08:35:01 PM
I have 2 questions:
I live in the Chicago area and have tried Mancuso twice and have found it to be very oily with little flavor. Do you think I am doing something wrong? I've only tried it on thin crust, but reading the glowing reviews, I know I must be missing something. I get puddles of oil when I use this cheese. It is used at many places but I can't get good results.

I have a Lou location 10 minutes from my house and that's the one pizza I don't mind paying for. I've made every type of pizza except this type due to being so close to Lou's I never wanted to mess with it. Does this recipe improve on Lou's?

Tom

Tom,

I think this recipe is better than Lou's.  Though, you must use really good tomatoes or it's like buying a vet with a 4 banger.  I have not tried mancuso yet.  Did you buy yours fresh from their shop in Joliet?  Everyone seems to have different taste buds too.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 22, 2015, 09:01:34 PM
Tom,

I think this recipe is better than Lou's.  Though, you must use really good tomatoes or it's like buying a vet with a 4 banger.  I have not tried mancuso yet.  Did you buy yours fresh from their shop in Joliet?  Everyone seems to have different taste buds too.

  And if nothing else....the convenience to make when you want in home and the cost savings.  :pizza:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 23, 2015, 03:10:27 AM
Tom,

I think this recipe is better than Lou's.  Though, you must use really good tomatoes or it's like buying a vet with a 4 banger.  I have not tried mancuso yet.  Did you buy yours fresh from their shop in Joliet?  Everyone seems to have different taste buds too.
I bought it fresh from the Mancuso shop in Joliet. So many people seem to like it, I figured it must be either my taste buds or the way I am preparing it. I will be curious to hear what you think when you try it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 23, 2015, 03:14:22 AM
  And if nothing else....the convenience to make when you want in home and the cost savings.  :pizza:
Bob, agree on the cost savings, big time! Up until now, that has been my luxury every 4-6 weeks having a Lou. I enjoy the savings with all the other types of pizza I make.
Convenience isn't really a factor since I only have to drive 10 minutes to get it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 23, 2015, 10:53:55 AM
I have 2 questions:
I live in the Chicago area and have tried Mancuso twice and have found it to be very oily with little flavor. Do you think I am doing something wrong? I've only tried it on thin crust, but reading the glowing reviews, I know I must be missing something. I get puddles of oil when I use this cheese. It is used at many places but I can't get good results.

I have a Lou location 10 minutes from my house and that's the one pizza I don't mind paying for. I've made every type of pizza except this type due to being so close to Lou's I never wanted to mess with it. Does this recipe improve on Lou's?

Tom


Mancuso's cheese has never seemed overly greasy or oily to me. I have used it on both thin crust and deep dish.  And I definitely do not find it lacking in flavor.

Joel

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 23, 2015, 11:46:15 AM
Mancuso's cheese has never seemed overly greasy or oily to me. I have used it on both thin crust and deep dish.  And I definitely do not find it lacking in flavor.

Joel

Joel, what temperature do you use with the Mancuso?
Tom
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 23, 2015, 12:07:54 PM
Joel, what temperature do you use with the Mancuso?
Tom

475-500 degrees for my thin crust and 440 for the deep dish.

Joel
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 23, 2015, 12:16:42 PM
It's been about a year since I tried it. Maybe I'll give it a third try. Do you do shredded for the thin and sliced for deep dish?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on January 23, 2015, 12:57:48 PM
It's been about a year since I tried it. Maybe I'll give it a third try. Do you do shredded for the thin and sliced for deep dish?

That is correct. I shred it using my food processor for my thin crust pizzas and slice it for the deep dish. But since we know now that they have 2 types of mozzarella, I am not sure which one I have been using.

Joel
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: orangeman1 on January 23, 2015, 10:59:36 PM
That is correct. I shred it using my food processor for my thin crust pizzas and slice it for the deep dish. But since we know now that they have 2 types of mozzarella, I am not sure which one I have been using.

Joel
I only saw one type in the fridge each time I visited and the person behind the counter didn't mention there was a choice. Now I am wondering the same.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pauley on January 25, 2015, 02:34:16 AM
Made this tonight at work from the recipe and process from page one of this post. Gonna stick with this as my new Chicago style crust!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: waynesize on January 25, 2015, 01:33:33 PM
That looks darn good Pauley!  This is my only crust for DD. Nate gave us a winner.

Wayne
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 25, 2015, 01:50:09 PM
Looks very good Pauley.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pauley on January 25, 2015, 11:16:37 PM
Thanks! Love the texture of the crust.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on January 29, 2015, 11:17:32 AM
Ok Nate,

I'm jumping in on Sunday for my first attempt at DD.  It's going to be for 3 adults and an 11 year old boy who eats like a moose.  My other 2 kids probably won't eat it. Being from NJ, other than Pizzeria Uno (is it even real pizza?), I'm not sure I've had DD pizza that's been memorable, so I apologize if my questions have obvious answers.

1) I have 3 pans I can choose from: an approx. 14" Chicago Metallic non stick pan, a seasoned cast iron skillet that's about 11 1/2" at top with a slope down to 9 1/2" bottom or a 9" springform pan that I use for cheesecake.  Which one should I use?

2) Should I bake on top of my 1/2" thick Cordierite stone or my 1/2" steel?  If I go with the steel, I'll probably drop the temp by 25į.

3) When you let the dough proof for 5 hours, is it balled or already pressed into pan?

4) I have semola di grano duro di remacinata, which is semolina flour that's been remilled to a finer product.  Will this be ok in the dough?

5) I read through this entire thread and assume that whole peeled tomatoes is the way to go.  But I don't remember reading about what seasonings to use in the sauce.  What is generally used in a DD sauce?

6) I noticed in one of your pics, you put pepperoni on top of the sauce which is what I think I'm going to do.  Did you cover that with foil to prevent burning or does the moisture from the sauce keep it hydrated so that it won't burn?

Thanks in advance for your help  ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 29, 2015, 05:59:26 PM
Ok Nate,

I'm jumping in on Sunday for my first attempt at DD.  It's going to be for 3 adults and an 11 year old boy who eats like a moose.  My other 2 kids probably won't eat it. Being from NJ, other than Pizzeria Uno (is it even real pizza?), I'm not sure I've had DD pizza that's been memorable, so I apologize if my questions have obvious answers.

1) I have 3 pans I can choose from: an approx. 14" Chicago Metallic non stick pan, a seasoned cast iron skillet that's about 11 1/2" at top with a slope down to 9 1/2" bottom or a 9" springform pan that I use for cheesecake.  Which one should I use?

2) Should I bake on top of my 1/2" thick Cordierite stone or my 1/2" steel?  If I go with the steel, I'll probably drop the temp by 25į.

3) When you let the dough proof for 5 hours, is it balled or already pressed into pan?

4) I have semola di grano duro di remacinata, which is semolina flour that's been remilled to a finer product.  Will this be ok in the dough?

5) I read through this entire thread and assume that whole peeled tomatoes is the way to go.  But I don't remember reading about what seasonings to use in the sauce.  What is generally used in a DD sauce?

6) I noticed in one of your pics, you put pepperoni on top of the sauce which is what I think I'm going to do.  Did you cover that with foil to prevent burning or does the moisture from the sauce keep it hydrated so that it won't burn?

Thanks in advance for your help  ;)

1.  14 in Chicago metallic, use 450 grams total flour
2.  Stone, go with 425 for 35 mins
3.  Let rise in gently formed mass (2 hrs lit oven, 2-3hrs countertop)
4.  Semolina should be fine
5.  Hand crushed plum tomatoes is the way to go.  Muir Glen if you can find them.
6.  Foil for maybe 5 mins so crust edge doesn't get too dark
7.  Make sure you let it rest a bit before cutting into.

Good luck. 

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on January 29, 2015, 07:41:43 PM
1.  14 in Chicago metallic, use 450 grams total flour
2.  Stone, go with 425 for 35 mins
3.  Let rise in gently formed mass (2 hrs lit oven, 2-3hrs countertop)
4.  Semolina should be fine
5.  Hand crushed plum tomatoes is the way to go.  Muir Glen if you can find them.
6.  Foil for maybe 5 mins so crust edge doesn't get too dark
7.  Make sure you let it rest a bit before cutting into.

Good luck. 

Nate

Thank you!

So, after the 5 hours total, then press dough into pan and maybe 1.25 inches up sides of pan?

What spices/other ingredients should I be adding to plum tomatoes?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 30, 2015, 12:55:55 AM
Thank you!

So, after the 5 hours total, then press dough into pan and maybe 1.25 inches up sides of pan?

What spices/other ingredients should I be adding to plum tomatoes?

Yes that's about right in the height.  You want the edges thin though because the crust will taste a lot better.  Add a little salt, less sugar and oregano to the tomatoes.  Top with parm before you bake too.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on January 30, 2015, 05:03:47 AM
5) I read through this entire thread and assume that whole peeled tomatoes is the way to go.  But I don't remember reading about what seasonings to use in the sauce.  What is generally used in a DD sauce?

6) I noticed in one of your pics, you put pepperoni on top of the sauce which is what I think I'm going to do.  Did you cover that with foil to prevent burning or does the moisture from the sauce keep it hydrated so that it won't burn?


RE: tomatoes.  A common first-timer mistake is to not get enough liquid out of the tomatoes before crushing them by hand onto the pizza.  Happens all the time, the ol' "soggy mess."  I'd err on the side of taking out as much as possible, the first time out, and adjust to your liking in later pies.  A pie that is too dry, saucewise, maintains core integrity and is 95% success, while a too wet pie can be a disheartening mess.

As to item #6, I hope you're using some Italian sausage in this pie, too.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on January 30, 2015, 06:46:27 AM
RE: tomatoes.  A common first-timer mistake is to not get enough liquid out of the tomatoes before crushing them by hand onto the pizza.  Happens all the time, the ol' "soggy mess."  I'd err on the side of taking out as much as possible, the first time out, and adjust to your liking in later pies.  A pie that is too dry, saucewise, maintains core integrity and is 95% success, while a too wet pie can be a disheartening mess.

As to item #6, I hope you're using some Italian sausage in this pie, too.

Thanks for the tip on the sauce, Garvey.  Yes, I will be using Italian sausage, possibly mushrooms and pepperoni on top.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2015, 08:29:19 AM
Nate,

Somehow I missed your request at Reply 25 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg306913#msg306913 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg306913#msg306913) even though I later came up with a conversion of a later version of the original recipe as was given at the top of the thread. I believe you have since come up with at least one more version so if you would like to give me your best or favorite recipe, along with the ingredient quantities, the shape (straight-sided or sloping-sided) and size and dimensions (top diameter, bottom diameter and depth) of the pan used with the recipe, and how far up the sides of the pan you push the dough, I should be able to convert the recipe to baker's percent format and also calculate the latest thickness factor. That way, the members can use your recipe for any type and size of pan. It might also help to have the preparation instructions so that everything is in one place.

If you have more than one favorite recipe, I should be able to come up with the numbers for those recipes also, provided you provide the same information as noted above.

Peter

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on January 31, 2015, 11:20:16 AM
Nate,

I did a trial run last night and couldn't come up with numbers that made any sense.  I pieced together baker's % from reply #93 where Peter put together a formula for Marty Rudnick (sp.).  I took a thickness factor of .08 that I read somewhere in this thread and used total ball weight of 450 grams because I thought that is what you meant instead of what you actually typed in your thread.  Don't assume  :-D  This is what the dough calculator came up with based upon my pan dimensions. 

Flour (100%):    255.82 g  |  9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs
Water (46%):    117.68 g  |  4.15 oz | 0.26 lbs
IDY (.611%):    1.56 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (.75424%):    1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%):    10.23 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Corn Oil (19%):    48.61 g | 1.71 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.8 tsp | 3.6 tbsp
Sugar (.53874%):    1.38 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Semolina (5%):    12.79 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.68 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
Total (175.90398%):   450 g | 15.87 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = N/A

It wasn't enough dough, but it was a damn tasty pizza!  Very biscuit/flaky and crispy.  It was just too thin and almost broke when I took it out of the pan, so my husband cut it right in the pan.  I didn't get any pictures (I know, no pictures = it didn't happen, blah, blah, blah)

Notes for my next attempt, find the tomatoes you suggested.  I used  two cans of Sclafani whole peeled tomatoes, hand squished and drained about half the liquid out.  I love their tomatoes, but am willing to try Muir Glen if I can find them.  Also, it was too salty with the sausage AND pepperoni AND cheese.  I probably need to increase temp to 450 degrees for next bake because the bottom was a little soggy, but it could've been because the dough was too thin.

Anyway, I'm hoping at least the baker's % above are ok and I just need to change the calculator to thickness factor instead of dough weight.

Also, is the dough texture supposed to be marbled looking?  I took care to only knead for a minute so as to not overwork the dough.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  And thanks for creating this thread - it rocks!
 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 31, 2015, 12:33:24 PM
Nate,

I did a trial run last night and couldn't come up with numbers that made any sense.  I pieced together baker's % from reply #93 where Peter put together a formula for Marty Rudnick (sp.).  I took a thickness factor of .08 that I read somewhere in this thread and used total ball weight of 450 grams because I thought that is what you meant instead of what you actually typed in your thread.  Don't assume  :-D  This is what the dough calculator came up with based upon my pan dimensions. 

Flour (100%):    255.82 g  |  9.02 oz | 0.56 lbs
Water (46%):    117.68 g  |  4.15 oz | 0.26 lbs
IDY (.611%):    1.56 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Salt (.75424%):    1.93 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Olive Oil (4%):    10.23 g | 0.36 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp
Corn Oil (19%):    48.61 g | 1.71 oz | 0.11 lbs | 10.8 tsp | 3.6 tbsp
Sugar (.53874%):    1.38 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.35 tsp | 0.12 tbsp
Semolina (5%):    12.79 g | 0.45 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.68 tsp | 1.23 tbsp
Total (175.90398%):   450 g | 15.87 oz | 0.99 lbs | TF = N/A

It wasn't enough dough, but it was a damn tasty pizza!  Very biscuit/flaky and crispy.  It was just too thin and almost broke when I took it out of the pan, so my husband cut it right in the pan.  I didn't get any pictures (I know, no pictures = it didn't happen, blah, blah, blah)

Notes for my next attempt, find the tomatoes you suggested.  I used  two cans of Sclafani whole peeled tomatoes, hand squished and drained about half the liquid out.  I love their tomatoes, but am willing to try Muir Glen if I can find them.  Also, it was too salty with the sausage AND pepperoni AND cheese.  I probably need to increase temp to 450 degrees for next bake because the bottom was a little soggy, but it could've been because the dough was too thin.

Anyway, I'm hoping at least the baker's % above are ok and I just need to change the calculator to thickness factor instead of dough weight.

Also, is the dough texture supposed to be marbled looking?  I took care to only knead for a minute so as to not overwork the dough.

Any help is greatly appreciated.  And thanks for creating this thread - it rocks!

Mary Ann,

Sorry it didn't work for you.  I think maybe you confused 450g total flour with total doughball weight.  Are you able to plug in that info into the dough calculator or you may just have to come up with the numbers.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 31, 2015, 01:09:01 PM
Nate,

I did a trial run last night and couldn't come up with numbers that made any sense.  I pieced together baker's % from reply #93 where Peter put together a formula for Marty Rudnick (sp.).  I took a thickness factor of .08 that I read somewhere in this thread and used total ball weight of 450 grams

  I'm not sure how you did this Mary Ann. The calculator asks for just one of those weight/TF.

08 is a good TF. So if you plugged that in, state your pan dimensions and then go with your ingredient %'s you should be good to go.   I just tried that and the flour comes out to up around 320ish. gram....that  would give you that extra amount of dough you said you felt you were lacking.

Glad you tried this pizza!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2015, 01:35:10 PM
Bob,

A thickness factor of 0.08 is not correct. It is closer to 0.12, maybe even a bit more. Also, the hydration should be with respect to the flour and the semolina combined, not just the flour. I estimate the total dough ball weight to be over 600 grams for a roughly 14" pan.

If Nate provides the information I mentioned, we can straighten everything out, I think.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 31, 2015, 01:59:28 PM

  Sorry, I assumed she was using a 9in. pan.

edit:also, if you look at the very first recipe on this thread and add up the amounts I believe it is close to TF .08.   Never the less.....I always just plug in a weight on the calculator that will get me close because when one goes to press this dough into the pan invariably you will have a bit of excess dough that you didn't need.  Jus my way of doing it.....  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 31, 2015, 02:22:43 PM
Bob,

A thickness factor of 0.08 is not correct. It is closer to 0.12, maybe even a bit more. Also, the hydration should be with respect to the flour and the semolina combined, not just the flour. I estimate the total dough ball weight to be over 600 grams for a roughly 14" pan.

If Nate provides the information I mentioned, we can straighten everything out, I think.

Peter

Peter,

I used BTBs 14 inch recipe and modified it to my liking.  He used 450 grams of total flour.  I made it but it was still a tad too thick to my liking.  So I dropped it to 420g and that did the trick.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2015, 02:51:47 PM
  Sorry, I assumed she was using a 9in. pan.

edit:also, if you look at the very first recipe on this thread and add up the amounts I believe it is close to TF .08.   Never the less.....I always just plug in a weight on the calculator that will get me close because when one goes to press this dough into the pan invariably you will have a bit of excess dough that you didn't need.  Jus my way of doing it.....  :chef:
Bob,

The 0.08 thickness factor is not correct. I took Nate's recipe as he gave it at the top of this thread and increased the amounts of some of the ingredients (IDY and salt) as Nate did at Reply 60 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137). The changes he made and I made were very minor. I then used the deep-dish dough calculating tool to come up with the thickness factor and the final dough formulation. The thickness factor I got is 0.121118. The final dough formulation looked like this:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (45.9459%):
IDY (0.61057%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Olive Oil (3.784%):
Corn Oil (18.919%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (170.55245%):
185 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
85 g  |  3 oz | 0.19 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.78 tsp | 2.59 tbsp
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
315.53 g | 11.13 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.121118
* The Flour Blend comprises 175 grams Ceresota All-purpose flour and 10 grams of semolina flour, for a total of 185 grams
Note: The dough (315.53 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 9" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.121118; no bowl residue compensation

I have no idea as to whether the above represents what Nate is now using or prefers. Also, I have never seen or calculated a thickness factor as low as 0.08 for a deep-dish dough.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 31, 2015, 03:24:05 PM
Bob,

The 0.08 thickness factor is not correct. I took Nate's recipe as he gave it at the top of this thread and increased the amounts of some of the ingredients (IDY and salt) as Nate did at Reply 60 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg331137#msg331137). The changes he made and I made were very minor. I then used the deep-dish dough calculating tool to come up with the thickness factor and the final dough formulation. The thickness factor I got is 0.121118. The final dough formulation looked like this:

Flour Blend* (100%):
Water (45.9459%):
IDY (0.61057%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Olive Oil (3.784%):
Corn Oil (18.919%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (170.55245%):
185 g  |  6.53 oz | 0.41 lbs
85 g  |  3 oz | 0.19 lbs
1.13 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.38 tsp | 0.13 tbsp
1.4 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
7 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.56 tsp | 0.52 tbsp
35 g | 1.23 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.78 tsp | 2.59 tbsp
1 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
315.53 g | 11.13 oz | 0.7 lbs | TF = 0.121118
* The Flour Blend comprises 175 grams Ceresota All-purpose flour and 10 grams of semolina flour, for a total of 185 grams
Note: The dough (315.53 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a 9" straight-sided pan with a depth of 2"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.121118; no bowl residue compensation

I have no idea as to whether the above represents what Nate is now using or prefers. Also, I have never seen or calculated a thickness factor as low as 0.08 for a deep-dish dough.

Peter

Peter,

Your numbers look spot on.   Good work.  For this style deep dish the thickness is different because the bottom is thicker than the sides.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on January 31, 2015, 03:29:06 PM
Baked this one up at my uncles house last night after the Blackhawks game.  Got some future orders coming.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on January 31, 2015, 03:42:20 PM
Peter,

Your numbers look spot on.   Good work.  For this style deep dish the thickness is different because the bottom is thicker than the sides.

Nate
Nate,

Thanks. All anyone has to do to replicate the 9" pizza but for a different size is to enter the dimensions of the pan to be used as required in the deep-dish dough calculating tool along with the 0.121118 thickness factor. The members can round off the percents if they'd like. I used exact percents because I wanted the gram values to be the same as you apparently weighed out. That also allowed me to be more precise with the thickness factor calculation.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 31, 2015, 07:48:48 PM
Baked this one up at my uncles house last night after the Blackhawks game.  Got some future orders coming.

Nate

   When you start doing mail order please pencil me in for a few.   :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 01, 2015, 08:29:21 AM
Mary Ann,

Sorry it didn't work for you.  I think maybe you confused 450g total flour with total doughball weight.  Are you able to plug in that info into the dough calculator or you may just have to come up with the numbers.

Nate

Did you see my question about the dough marbling?

  I'm not sure how you did this Mary Ann. The calculator asks for just one of those weight/TF.

08 is a good TF. So if you plugged that in, state your pan dimensions and then go with your ingredient %'s you should be good to go.   I just tried that and the flour comes out to up around 320ish. gram....that  would give you that extra amount of dough you said you felt you were lacking.

Glad you tried this pizza!  :chef:

Bob,

I was only able to select either TF or dough weight.  I did it both ways and thought that the numbers didn't look right.  But what do I know?  I never made this style before Friday.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 01, 2015, 08:33:38 AM
So after reading all of these replies, what thickness factor should I plug into the dough calculator if I want to use my 14" sloping Chicage Metallic pan again?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2015, 09:29:30 AM
So after reading all of these replies, what thickness factor should I plug into the dough calculator if I want to use my 14" sloping Chicage Metallic pan again?
Mary Ann,

You should use 0.121118. If you'd like, you can round the baker's percents but that will un-round some of the weights that Nate used.

If you want to run a scenario using your pan numbers in the deep-dish dough calculating tool, I'd be happy to check it out.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 01, 2015, 10:10:12 AM
Mary Ann,

You should use 0.121118. If you'd like, you can round the baker's percents but that will un-round some of the weights that Nate used.

If you want to run a scenario using your pan numbers in the deep-dish dough calculating tool, I'd be happy to check it out.

Peter

Thank you, Peter.  Here's what I came up with assuming top diameter of 14.25", bottom diameter of 13.5", depth of 1.5" and going up sides with dough by 1.25"

I don't know how to convert dough calculator results into a PDF, but here are the numbers...

Flour (100%):    364.84 g  |  12.87 oz | 0.8 lbs
Water (45.9459%):    167.63 g  |  5.91 oz | 0.37 lbs
IDY (.61057%):    2.23 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.74 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
Salt (.75424%):    2.75 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Olive Oil (3.784%):    13.81 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.07 tsp | 1.02 tbsp
Corn Oil (18.919%):    69.03 g | 2.43 oz | 0.15 lbs | 5.11 tbsp | 0.32 cups
Sugar (.53874%):    1.97 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.49 tsp | 0.16 tbsp
Semolina (5%):    18.24 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 5.24 tsp | 1.75 tbsp
Total (175.55245%):   640.49 g | 22.59 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = 0.121118

How do the numbers look?  I thought Nate's last comment was that he used around 420 grams of total flour for his 14" pan but I don't recall if the sides of his pan slope or not.

BTW, I just finished the last slice of DD for breakfast.  A Super Bowl Sunday breakfast of champions!  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on February 01, 2015, 10:36:33 AM
Mary Ann,

No, not quite but close. The reason is that the flour and the semolina should be treated as a blend since the hydration percent has to apply to that blend. Using your numbers, this is what I get:

Flour Blend*(100%):
Water (45.9459%):
IDY (0.61057%):
Salt (0.75424%):
Olive Oil (3.784%):
Corn Oil (18.919%):
Sugar (0.53874%):
Total (170.55245%):
375.54 g  |  13.25 oz | 0.83 lbs
172.55 g  |  6.09 oz | 0.38 lbs
2.29 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.76 tsp | 0.25 tbsp
2.83 g | 0.1 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
14.21 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.16 tsp | 1.05 tbsp
71.05 g | 2.51 oz | 0.16 lbs | 5.26 tbsp | 0.33 cups
2.02 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.51 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
640.49 g | 22.59 oz | 1.41 lbs | TF = 0.121118
* The Flour Blend comprises 355.24 grams of Ceresota All-purpose flour (if used) and 20.3 grams of semolina flour (a ratio of 94.6/5.4), for a total of 375.54 grams
Note: The dough (640.49 grams) is for a single deep-dish pizza made in a sloping-sided pan with a top diameter of 14.25", a bottom diameter of 13.5" and a depth of 1.5"; the dough is pushed up the sides of the pan to about 1.25"; the nominal thickness factor is 0.121118; no bowl residue compensation

You will note above that I gave the ratio of the flour and semolina. My numbers are based on the 175 grams of flour and 10 grams of semolina as given in Nate's original recipe at the top of this thread. I did not round the numbers as did Nate and as you did in your formulation.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 01, 2015, 11:33:48 AM
Thank you for all of your help.  I'll post my results the next time I make DD.  I was supposed to make it for tonight, but our SB plans changed, so we're eating at a friend's house.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 01, 2015, 06:01:17 PM
Thank you for all of your help.  I'll post my results the next time I make DD.  I was supposed to make it for tonight, but our SB plans changed, so we're eating at a friend's house.

Mary Ann,

382g seems a little light.  Make sure you pat bottom enough to be able to pull up 1.25 inches on the sides.  You should be okay I think though.  Make sure you get all that water out of the tomatoes.  Usually have to drain 3 times.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 04, 2015, 02:40:03 PM
Mary Ann,

382g seems a little light.  Make sure you pat bottom enough to be able to pull up 1.25 inches on the sides.  You should be okay I think though.  Make sure you get all that water out of the tomatoes.  Usually have to drain 3 times.

Nate

Nate,

I'm going to use the formula that Peter calculated for me in reply #214 for my 14" pan.  I have a few more questions though:

1) Cheese - do you always use sliced cheese or do you sometimes use shredded?
2) Tomatoes - just to be sure, it's Glen Muir whole peeled tomatoes that you suggest?
3) Dough - a few replies ago, I asked if the marbling I got in the final dough was a typical result of the hand kneading process.  The first time, I hand kneaded for only a minute because I read a few times that it should not be over kneaded at risk of getting a different texture to the crust. Is the marbling normal?

Make sure you get all that water out of the tomatoes.  Usually have to drain 3 times.

Nate

Do you recommend hand crushing or are you using an immersion blender before you drain 3 times?  I thought I read earlier in this thread that you pulsed it 4 times with FP.  What is FP?

I used two 28 ounce cans of WPT, hand crushed them and ended up with only about 1 can after the draining.  Does that seem right?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 04, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
1.  Always sliced
2.  Use Glen Muir if that is best you have available.  I use a really good commerical whole peeled plum can.
3.  Dough marbling is normal.  You just don't want big clumps of oil on the outer ball.
4.  I hand crush some for bigger chunks and use food processor too.  I also use some of the sauce that comes in my can.   I like to do a mix.  I believe Malnatis used 21oz of sauce on a large deep dish.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 05, 2015, 11:24:43 AM
1.  Always sliced
2.  Use Glen Muir if that is best you have available.  I use a really good commerical whole peeled plum can.
3.  Dough marbling is normal.  You just don't want big clumps of oil on the outer ball.
4.  I hand crush some for bigger chunks and use food processor too.  I also use some of the sauce that comes in my can.   I like to do a mix.  I believe Malnatis used 21oz of sauce on a large deep dish.

Nate

Thanks, Nate.

There's an Italian specialty shop the next town over from me that I can probably get commercial quality tomatoes at.  At my local grocery store, I can get any popular brand like Tuttorosso, Sclafani (my personal favorite), Jersey Fresh, Cento, Glen Muir.  I also have a pizzeria/restaurant supply wholesaler right in town that does cash and carry on Fridays but I'd have to buy a case of tomatoes.  Which brand/variety did you say you loved?  Was it Alta Cucina?

And OMG, why didn't you say Duh, Mary Ann when I asked you what FP was?!  Sometimes my brain just doesn't work.  The more kids you have, the dumber you get (in my case).  It's a wonder I passed the CPA exam  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 05, 2015, 02:07:21 PM
Thanks, Nate.

There's an Italian specialty shop the next town over from me that I can probably get commercial quality tomatoes at.  At my local grocery store, I can get any popular brand like Tuttorosso, Sclafani (my personal favorite), Jersey Fresh, Cento, Glen Muir.  I also have a pizzeria/restaurant supply wholesaler right in town that does cash and carry on Fridays but I'd have to buy a case of tomatoes.  Which brand/variety did you say you loved?  Was it Alta Cucina?

And OMG, why didn't you say Duh, Mary Ann when I asked you what FP was?!  Sometimes my brain just doesn't work.  The more kids you have, the dumber you get (in my case).  It's a wonder I passed the CPA exam  :-D

Haha on the FP.  Yes, I use the alta cucina tomatoes.  They are the best I've found.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on February 05, 2015, 02:10:41 PM
Mary Ann,

Sometimes it is a good idea to take a look at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0). I try not to put obscure abbreviations and acronyms in the list, for fear that the list will get too long, and I wish the members would define acronyms and abbreviations used in their posts, if only to cut down on my work, but I try to get the most popular abbreviation and acronyms on the list.

In the case of CPA, I think most of our members know what CPA stands for. It's Cleaning, Pressing and Alterations :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 05, 2015, 02:42:52 PM
Mary Ann,

Sometimes it is a good idea to take a look at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0). I try not to put obscure abbreviations and acronyms in the list, for fear that the list will get too long, and I wish the members would define acronyms used in their posts, if only to cut down on my work, but I try to get the most popular abbreviation and acronyms on the list.

In the case of CPA, I think most of our members know what CPA stands for. It's Cleaning, Pressing and Alterations :-D.

Peter

Thanks for the link, Peter  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pauley on February 09, 2015, 11:30:40 PM
Made a couple more tonight as some practice :) since some old friends, from a school where I used to teach, placed an order for 8 pizzas for me to deliver to their school on Wednesday!
I used the semolina in the recipe this time. I use sliced Sargento cheese (mozz/prov), 7/11 sauce, grated Romano, and a little shredded Sargento (mozz/prov) on top.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 10, 2015, 08:16:26 AM
Made a couple more tonight as some practice :) since some old friends, from a school where I used to teach, placed an order for 8 pizzas for me to deliver to their school on Wednesday!
I used the semolina in the recipe this time. I use sliced Sargento cheese (mozz/prov), 7/11 sauce, grated Romano, and a little shredded Sargento (mozz/prov) on top.

8 deep dishes?  Nice!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pauley on February 10, 2015, 02:21:49 PM
I know, right? I only had 2,  9-inch Chicago Metallic pans. Had to go out and buy two more. So now I only need to bake in two batches. Lol
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on February 10, 2015, 02:49:05 PM
That is correct. I shred it using my food processor for my thin crust pizzas and slice it for the deep dish. But since we know now that they have 2 types of mozzarella, I am not sure which one I have been using.

Joel

I combined both higher fat (3.5%) and the lower fat at 50/50 ratio.  At 475 it oiled off.  I used the blocked and shredded myself.  It did indeed taste very excellent.

The block that has their label on it (in orange printing) is the low fat.  The high fat had no label on it, just a clear vacuum sealed plastic.

Both types are made in house. 

I am going to see if this is a cheese maturity issue (used too soon or used too old) which is causing the oil off.  It's darn good and worth trying some more.

If you shredded yourself and you say it does not oil off - what did the wrapper look like?  Orange writing on it maybe?  Maybe what you used was the low fat and that will be far less prone to oil off.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vic311 on February 11, 2015, 07:41:11 PM
I combined both higher fat (3.5%) and the lower fat at 50/50 ratio.  At 475 it oiled off.  I used the blocked and shredded myself.  It did indeed taste very excellent.

The block that has their label on it (in orange printing) is the low fat.  The high fat had no label on it, just a clear vacuum sealed plastic.

Both types are made in house. 

I am going to see if this is a cheese maturity issue (used too soon or used too old) which is causing the oil off.  It's darn good and worth trying some more.

If you shredded yourself and you say it does not oil off - what did the wrapper look like?  Orange writing on it maybe?  Maybe what you used was the low fat and that will be far less prone to oil off.

I must be using the low fat version because I buy the blocks with the orange writing on them.  I never notice any extra oil in the DD pizzas I make and the thin crust pizzas always have the typical amount of oil and grease that most pizza joints have.  There might be a tad bit more oil than the previous cheeses I have experimented with but I have also started adding about 1-2 ounces (shredded) of their scamorza on top of the mozz.  This could account for the perceived addition of oil.  I am glad that you liked the cheese.

Joel
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 14, 2015, 09:32:49 AM
Here's my second attempt, much better than my first, but need to make a few adjustments for next time.  Overall the pie was very good, but the filling should be a little thicker/heartier, so I will probably slice the cheese thicker and add some sausage meat underneath the pepperoni.  Any suggestions are welcome.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on February 14, 2015, 12:12:27 PM
Mary Ann:

If you want to see the whole procedure written out (the Dao of Deep Dish, as it were), check out member VCB's recipe.  It's a PDF.  Goes into assembly, baking, etc., in great detail.  Of course, you can/should stick with the same dough, etc., you've been doing in from this thread, or whatever you want, but VCB has really put together something special in his explanations that should be required reading for any home deep dish maker.  Helps to get a sense of everything that's going on.  (Otherwise, the threads here have a lot of shorthand for people who are already well into DD.)

http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail.pdf

Cheers,
Garvey
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 14, 2015, 12:21:46 PM


  The "sausage patty" goes a long way in adding depth/volume to these pies. Also, I don't think you can have "too thick" of cheese tiles on these babies. The chunkier the tomatoes really add height.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 14, 2015, 03:46:41 PM
Looks very good Mary Ann.  For a 14 inch pizza you want a pound of cheese in there.  What kind of tomatoes did you use?  Below is a link to a great write up on how to assemble a Lou Malnatis deep dish.  You can actually count the number of cheese slices and see the thickness.  Also pay attention to the sauce thickness.  It's less than you would think.

http://www.eater.com/2014/3/18/6270757/the-malnati-chicago-classic-at-lou-malnatis
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 15, 2015, 03:28:13 AM
Mary Ann:

If you want to see the whole procedure written out (the Dao of Deep Dish, as it were), check out member VCB's recipe.  It's a PDF.  Goes into assembly, baking, etc., in great detail.  Of course, you can/should stick with the same dough, etc., you've been doing in from this thread, or whatever you want, but VCB has really put together something special in his explanations that should be required reading for any home deep dish maker.  Helps to get a sense of everything that's going on.  (Otherwise, the threads here have a lot of shorthand for people who are already well into DD.)

http://www.realdeepdish.com/RDDHolyGrail.pdf

Cheers,
Garvey

Wow, thanks, Garvey.  That was very helpful and a great reference point for someone like me who has only had DD 3 times in my life and I made 2 of them within the last 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mbrulato on February 15, 2015, 03:36:23 AM
Looks very good Mary Ann.  For a 14 inch pizza you want a pound of cheese in there.  What kind of tomatoes did you use?  Below is a link to a great write up on how to assemble a Lou Malnatis deep dish.  You can actually count the number of cheese slices and see the thickness.  Also pay attention to the sauce thickness.  It's less than you would think.

http://www.eater.com/2014/3/18/6270757/the-malnati-chicago-classic-at-lou-malnatis

Thanks, Nate.  I used Glen Muir Organic WPT and pulsed them with my mini FP  ;D. Thanks for the link.  It came in handy with my insomnia after so much coffee yesterday.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on February 15, 2015, 11:12:14 AM
I notice this said NOT to grease the sides of the pan. Any particular reason?  I do but maybe I shouldn't...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on February 15, 2015, 04:45:42 PM
I notice this said NOT to grease the sides of the pan. Any particular reason?  I do but maybe I shouldn't...

Because if you do, then the dough will keep falling down the side of the pan instead of keeping the outer wall of crust intact.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 15, 2015, 05:19:11 PM
I notice this said NOT to grease the sides of the pan. Any particular reason?  I do but maybe I shouldn't...

As you press out the dough the oil should slide up with the dough anyways.  Now if your using crisco go ahead and coat the sides.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: woodmakesitgood on February 15, 2015, 05:21:46 PM
As you press out the dough the oil should slide up with the dough anyways. 

That's what happens when I press out the dough, the sides get oiled and the dough wants to come back down.
But during the bake, it comes back up again, so no worries.  ;D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 15, 2015, 05:35:46 PM
That's what happens when I press out the dough, the sides get oiled and the dough wants to come back down.
But during the bake, it comes back up again, so no worries.  ;D

If the sides are coming down you can try lessening the oil.  If that doesn't work then the dough may be too wet.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on February 15, 2015, 06:16:08 PM
If the sides are coming down you can try lessening the oil.  If that doesn't work then the dough may be too wet.

Nate

You could also dust your dough with a little more flour to suck up some of that excess oil.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: woodmakesitgood on February 15, 2015, 07:54:50 PM
If the sides are coming down you can try lessening the oil.  If that doesn't work then the dough may be too wet.

Nate


It doesn't go down that much, just to the midpoint of the side, if that.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 15, 2015, 10:59:00 PM


I always thought Malnati says to grease the side of the pan and that helps the dough stand up on the sides.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 16, 2015, 12:52:04 AM

I always thought Malnati says to grease the side of the pan and that helps the dough stand up on the sides.

Makes the sides more slippery I think.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 16, 2015, 01:00:00 PM


I don't know...there is somebody out there, a video maybe, where they put the shortening up the sides and it helps the dough cling to it. I think it works good.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 16, 2015, 04:13:49 PM

I don't know...there is somebody out there, a video maybe, where they put the shortening up the sides and it helps the dough cling to it. I think it works good.

Shortening is not oil.  It's like a glue.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 16, 2015, 05:31:33 PM
Shortening is not oil.  It's like a glue.

That's why I never said "oil the sides"..... I said to grease it.   ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 16, 2015, 10:16:05 PM
That's why I never said "oil the sides"..... I said to grease it.   ;)

Oh I though we were talking about oil.  Malnatis oils their pans.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on February 28, 2015, 07:51:21 PM
It had been a long time since I tried to make a deep dish.  A buddy of mine recently got some Lou to go's.  I noticed that the ingredients listed barley flour.  I tried pythonic's recipe to the T, except I substituted the semolina for diastatic malt powder.  The results were pretty awesome.  The only thing was the crust was overdone.  Has anyone here tried malted barley flour before?  I cooked at 450F for about 35 minutes.  Should I cook at a lower temp if I'm going to use the malt powder?  Can the butter flavored crisco on the pan lead to burning? Also, a few things....the sausage recipe is nearly spot on to Lou's.  Fresh garlic is key.  I had used garlic powder in the past and it wasn't nearly as good.  I used Cento organic crushed tomatoes (28oz) drained, sprinkled with a little salt, sugar and oregano they were outstanding.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 03, 2015, 06:25:57 PM
It had been a long time since I tried to make a deep dish.  A buddy of mine recently got some Lou to go's.  I noticed that the ingredients listed barley flour.  I tried pythonic's recipe to the T, except I substituted the semolina for diastatic malt powder.  The results were pretty awesome.  The only thing was the crust was overdone.  Has anyone here tried malted barley flour before?  I cooked at 450F for about 35 minutes.  Should I cook at a lower temp if I'm going to use the malt powder?  Can the butter flavored crisco on the pan lead to burning? Also, a few things....the sausage recipe is nearly spot on to Lou's.  Fresh garlic is key.  I had used garlic powder in the past and it wasn't nearly as good.  I used Cento organic crushed tomatoes (28oz) drained, sprinkled with a little salt, sugar and oregano they were outstanding.

How big was your pizza?  Is that a 12 inch?  I read somewhere on the New York forum about the diastatic malt leading to burning if there is too much in there.  35 minutes is a long bake at 450.  You may want to drop to 425.  My bet though is it's the malt powder.  Great looking pie regardless.


Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on March 03, 2015, 08:27:54 PM
Nate,
I thought it was a 10" but I just measured the pan and it turns out it's 11".  I made another one and did a couple of things differently.  1) I rehydrated the yeast 2) I left the dough at room temp for 4hrs (the last one I made I put in the fridge overnight) 3) I cooked at 400F for about 35min.  The results were mixed.  It didn't burn as bad as the last one, but the crust was more bread like.  Do you rehydrate the yeast or just add to the dry ingredients?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 04, 2015, 08:39:10 PM
Nate,
I thought it was a 10" but I just measured the pan and it turns out it's 11".  I made another one and did a couple of things differently.  1) I rehydrated the yeast 2) I left the dough at room temp for 4hrs (the last one I made I put in the fridge overnight) 3) I cooked at 400F for about 35min.  The results were mixed.  It didn't burn as bad as the last one, but the crust was more bread like.  Do you rehydrate the yeast or just add to the dry ingredients?

I just add it to the dry ingredients.  I think 35 mins is too long.  Try 450 for 29-30 mins.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 04, 2015, 09:02:06 PM
I just add it to the dry ingredients.  I think 35 mins is too long.  Try 450 for 29-30 mins.
What type and brand of flour you use Nate?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 04, 2015, 09:21:07 PM
What type and brand of flour you use Nate?

Been using Ceresota primarily.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on March 05, 2015, 07:18:03 PM
Been using Ceresota primarily.

That's my new go to flour. Been using KA for many many years, Ceresota makes a better pizza crust ( never thought I would say that)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 09, 2015, 05:38:09 PM
1:09 of this vid shows that liquid butter is brushed on.  They are not making two separate batches of dough because I have friends that have worked there.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx-KPzEhvCQ
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: KTM Guy on March 09, 2015, 07:08:03 PM
Also at 2:38 you can see the guy ladle something onto the crust. I'm waiting for my pan to come in to give this a try.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on March 15, 2015, 09:45:10 PM
1:09 of this vid shows that liquid butter is brushed on.  They are not making two separate batches of dough because I have friends that have worked there.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vx-KPzEhvCQ

So Nate, you're saying they put the butter on the inside of the crust before baking?  When you described this before, I thought you meant they brush it on the outside AFTER its cooked.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 16, 2015, 12:51:17 AM
So Nate, you're saying they put the butter on the inside of the crust before baking?  When you described this before, I thought you meant they brush it on the outside AFTER its cooked.

Yes they do it before.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on March 20, 2015, 05:11:06 PM
I've tried a few things lately and this one came out great.  Using Nate's recipe for dough (with a couple tweeks and no semolina) and sausage along with some organic Cento crushed tomatoes it was the closest to Lou's pizza I've been able to make.  Every time I made a pizza using the dough recipe I felt like that certain beer/chicago style crust flavor was always missing.  I tried adding beer instead of water, which didn't work.  I let the dough sit in the refrigerator for two days, which gave it a little more flavor.  I tried adding diastatic malt powder which didn't do much but brown it up. After trying all of this out I decided to add a lot more yeast (1/2tsp) with the dry ingredients and left the dough at room temperature for 24hr.  This made a major difference.  It had that missing beer/yeast flavor, and the texture was crisp and flaky.  Couple of questions for you guys...I tried using buttermilk powder one time and it gave the crust a beautiful yellow/golden brown color along with some nice flavor.  Is it ok to leave this in the dough at room temperature for a day or will I end up getting everyone sick? 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 20, 2015, 06:33:48 PM
I've tried a few things lately and this one came out great.  Using Nate's recipe for dough (with a couple tweeks and no semolina) and sausage along with some organic Cento crushed tomatoes it was the closest to Lou's pizza I've been able to make.  Every time I made a pizza using the dough recipe I felt like that certain beer/chicago style crust flavor was always missing.  I tried adding beer instead of water, which didn't work.  I let the dough sit in the refrigerator for two days, which gave it a little more flavor.  I tried adding diastatic malt powder which didn't do much but brown it up. After trying all of this out I decided to add a lot more yeast (1/2tsp) with the dry ingredients and left the dough at room temperature for 24hr.  This made a major difference.  It had that missing beer/yeast flavor, and the texture was crisp and flaky.  Couple of questions for you guys...I tried using buttermilk powder one time and it gave the crust a beautiful yellow/golden brown color along with some nice flavor.  Is it ok to leave this in the dough at room temperature for a day or will I end up getting everyone sick?

Excellent pie there Bob.  Glad to see you are using the appropriate tomatoes too.  It is fine to leave the dough at room temp for that long.  Did the dough smell like alcohol though before baking?  I would think it would be over fermented.  One thing I've noticed is all corn oil tastes different too.  Some are stronger than others which will mask the yeast flavor.  I wanna try fresh yeast too because I've heard the best flavors come from that.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on March 21, 2015, 02:25:44 PM
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 21, 2015, 02:35:40 PM
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?
I get mine from a local small bakery.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 21, 2015, 07:59:24 PM
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?

You usually throw this style crust in the trash?  Are you mad?  It's the best part of the pizza.  Hmmm when I do room ferments I smell the alcohol after about 6hrs with less than 1/2 tsp IDY.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on March 22, 2015, 08:46:41 AM
I was tossing it because it was bland and I think I know what I was doing wrong...when you put the dough in the oven for 6 hrs is this at room temp or 95F? I thought last nights pie was really good despite the alcohol I smelt coming off the dough in the morning.  What flavors are associated with overfermented dough after it is baked, since I assume the alcohol would be all gone?  A couple things I've noticed and I don't think it can be stressed enough is to leave the pizza in the pan for at least 5minutes after it's out of the oven, and to take care not to spill any of the top liquid over the sides.  I had a few pizzas get some really soggy bottom crust as a result of taking out of the pan too early and letting some of those juices get underneath.  It's hard to resist the temptation of slicing it up and taking a bite, but it really has made a huge difference with the crispness of the bottom crust.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 22, 2015, 02:04:23 PM
I was tossing it because it was bland and I think I know what I was doing wrong...when you put the dough in the oven for 6 hrs is this at room temp or 95F? I thought last nights pie was really good despite the alcohol I smelt coming off the dough in the morning.  What flavors are associated with overfermented dough after it is baked, since I assume the alcohol would be all gone?  A couple things I've noticed and I don't think it can be stressed enough is to leave the pizza in the pan for at least 5minutes after it's out of the oven, and to take care not to spill any of the top liquid over the sides.  I had a few pizzas get some really soggy bottom crust as a result of taking out of the pan too early and letting some of those juices get underneath.  It's hard to resist the temptation of slicing it up and taking a bite, but it really has made a huge difference with the crispness of the bottom crust.

I do a 2hr oven ferment at 95 and 3hr room temp after that.  After removing from the pan I put on cardboard pizza insert and let sit another 5 minutes before cutting.  The cardboard soaks up all the grease and I never have wet bottoms anymore.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 25, 2015, 07:40:42 PM
It didn't have an alcohol smell at all and the flavor was really good.  I ended up eating all of the crust when usually it goes in the trash.  So, I went to make another batch and this time I covered the bowl it was in with plastic wrap (last time I just used a paper towel).  The "sealed" dough did have quite an offensive alcohol smell to it after about 14hr.  I removed the wrap this morning and the alcohol smell has disappeared and all that's left is that yeasty/beer aroma.  The original plan was to let it go for 48hr at room temp, but I think that wrapping the bowl may have sped things up a bit, so I am going to cook it up tonight.

When I asked about leaving the dough at room temp, my concern was if I add some buttermilk powder to the recipe. You think this is ok?  Where can you get fresh ADY from?  Do you use a specific brand of corn oil?

Bob,

You may be on to something.  I smell a nice beerish flavor coming from the oven after doing a 6hr rise in the oven with the light on (sure smelled like alcohol to me).  I also used ADY instead of IDY, no semolina, and 50/50 mix of corn and olive oil.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 25, 2015, 07:54:07 PM
Holy crap is it a identical clone?  Crust smells of beer.

100% AP flour (190g)
20% oil (50/50 corn and olive)
46% water
1/2 tsp ADY
1/4 tsp salt
1/2 tsp sugar

6hr oven rise

Greased pan with butter flavored shortening.

Preheat stone to 500, baked for 27 mins at 450.

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 25, 2015, 08:13:49 PM
After some careful thinking I have made some changes to get closer to the flavor of Malnatis crust:

1.  The corn oil ratio needs to come down.  It overpowers the fermentation beer flavor we are all after.  50% corn oil was definitely better than 75%.

2.  It's better without the semolina (the extra crunch isn't needed if baked right and the flavor profile is different)

3.  A longer room temp rise definitely attributes to a more beerish flavor (thanks SDbob).  Even if it smells of alcohol before bake time you are on the right track.

I will do a 12hr room temp rise next to see if I can get more of that beer flavor that was in the pie I made tonight.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: woodmakesitgood on March 25, 2015, 09:58:29 PM
After some careful thinking I have made some discoveries to get as close to the flavor of Malnatis crust:

1.  The corn oil ratio needs to come down.  It overpowers the fermentation flavor.   50% corn oil was definitely better than 75%.

2.  It's better without the semolina
3.  A longer room temp rise definitely attributes to a more beerish flavor (thanks SDbob).  Even if it smells of alcohol before bake time you are on the right track.

I will do a 12hr room temp rise next to see if I can get more of that beer flavor.

Nate


Interesting, I thought semolina was a given with your Malnati's recipes, what changed your mind?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 25, 2015, 10:08:42 PM

Interesting, I thought semolina was a given with your Malnati's recipes, what changed your mind?

Well the semolina came from BTB originally.  I just modified mine by taste and it was lower than his go to recipe.  Semolina was originally added I think to give more crunch to the crust.  The flavor is more important I think now.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on March 26, 2015, 09:39:33 AM
RE: oil, I've always thought olive oil imparts a very strong flavor.  No sign of that here?  I wonder if you used straight vegetable oil or canola, if that would mellow it out the corn oil to the proper ratio. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 26, 2015, 12:23:54 PM
RE: oil, I've always thought olive oil imparts a very strong flavor.  No sign of that here?  I wonder if you used straight vegetable oil or canola, if that would mellow it out the corn oil to the proper ratio.

It did a little but the beer flavor outweighed it.  I will do 50% corn and 50% vegetable for my next batch of dough and report back.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on March 31, 2015, 07:31:28 PM
Great looking pizza Nate.  I definitely crossed the over fermentation line with my last pizza.  I decided to cover the bowl the dough was in with plastic wrap and left it covered for 24hr.  The dough ended up with an off taste (although it still looked tasty).  The best results I've gotten are room temperature uncovered for 24hr.  The dough ended up with a little skin to it, but I gave it a very light knead and I think it actually added to the texture.  Nate, I am anxiously waiting to hear how your next pizza turns out.  I'm going to experiment with different amounts of yeast and a 12 hr ferment time based on what you end up with.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on March 31, 2015, 10:20:44 PM
Great looking pizza Nate.  I definitely crossed the over fermentation line with my last pizza.  I decided to cover the bowl the dough was in with plastic wrap and left it covered for 24hr.  The dough ended up with an off taste (although it still looked tasty).  The best results I've gotten are room temperature uncovered for 24hr.  The dough ended up with a little skin to it, but I gave it a very light knead and I think it actually added to the texture.  Nate, I am anxiously waiting to hear how your next pizza turns out.  I'm going to experiment with different amounts of yeast and a 12 hr ferment time based on what you end up with.

Bob,

How much oil are you using and what kind? I think changing the oil made the biggest difference.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 01, 2015, 04:56:50 PM
Nate,
I'm using 175g flour, 35g corn oil and 7g olive oil.  How much ADY are you using?  Are you leaving the dough uncovered? 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 02, 2015, 12:38:42 AM
 :-D
Nate,
I'm using 175g flour, 35g corn oil and 7g olive oil.  How much ADY are you using?  Are you leaving the dough uncovered?

Try 60/40 corn oil and see if u get more beer flavor.  I used 1/2 tsp ADY total covered.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 02, 2015, 11:28:18 AM
I made a batch of dough this morning with the corn/vegetable oil blend.  It smells great.  Bloomed ADY is so much better than IDY I believe now too.  Doing a 12hr room temp rise and will post thoughts tonight.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 02, 2015, 01:48:21 PM
Holy crap is it a identical clone?  Crust smells of beer.

100% AP flour (190g)
20% oil (50/50 corn and olive)
46% water
1/2 tsp ADY
1/4 tsp salt
1/2 tsp sugar

6hr oven rise

Greased pan with butter flavored shortening.

Preheat stone to 500, baked for 27 mins at 450.

  That is one beautiful pizza right there Nate...great job man, wow!  8)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 02, 2015, 06:50:37 PM
  That is one beautiful pizza right there Nate...great job man, wow!  8)

You know it brother!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 02, 2015, 07:27:57 PM
I made a batch of dough this morning with the corn/vegetable oil blend.  It smells great.  Bloomed ADY is so much better than IDY I believe now too.  Doing a 12hr room temp rise and will post thoughts tonight.

Nate

This one was great.  The vegetable oil tastes better than the olive.  Great crust flavor.  Gives this one a try folks.  The only thing left to do is a 3 day cold ferment.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 06, 2015, 09:09:04 PM
Nate,
Very nice!  I tried increasing the olive oil to corn oil ratio (30g:12g).  I only had time for an 8hr room temp fermentation, so I used 1tsp of ADY.  The crust lacked the flavor I was looking for.  I'll be trying the new recipe with vegetable oil and 12hr fermentation on the next pie.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 07, 2015, 04:54:53 PM
Nate,
Very nice!  I tried increasing the olive oil to corn oil ratio (30g:12g).  I only had time for an 8hr room temp fermentation, so I used 1tsp of ADY.  The crust lacked the flavor I was looking for.  I'll be trying the new recipe with vegetable oil and 12hr fermentation on the next pie.

Do a 50/50 ratio.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CaptBob on April 07, 2015, 05:18:33 PM
Works of art Nate.........
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 19, 2015, 02:18:39 PM
Nate,
I went with a 1:1 ratio of vegetable:corn oil last night.  I used 1teaspoon of proofed ADY and fermented at room temp for about 13.5hr.  I think that it was really good, but I feel like I got a little closer to Lou's when I went with corn:olive oil (35g:7g), added the ADY dry and fermented at room temp overnight uncovered.  Next time I'm going to try using the same ratio of corn to vegetable but I'm going to extend the room temperature ferment to overnight.  Have you tried a cold fermentation yet?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on April 19, 2015, 03:08:49 PM
Nate,
Are you adding any melted butter on the bottom of the crust prior to loading with ingredients?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 19, 2015, 05:40:29 PM
Nate,
I went with a 1:1 ratio of vegetable:corn oil last night.  I used 1teaspoon of proofed ADY and fermented at room temp for about 13.5hr.  I think that it was really good, but I feel like I got a little closer to Lou's when I went with corn:olive oil (35g:7g), added the ADY dry and fermented at room temp overnight uncovered.  Next time I'm going to try using the same ratio of corn to vegetable but I'm going to extend the room temperature ferment to overnight.  Have you tried a cold fermentation yet?

Malnatis is doing a 72hr cold rise to develop the deep beer flavor.  In my opinion the corn oil masks that great beer flavor that comes from a long cold ferment.  There are also pictures of the dough that they are using and it's more whitish then yellow.  Corn oil gives the dough a yellow color.  I would try 60/40 corn/vegetable oil, and a 3 day cold ferment.  For their famous buttercrust you need to add melted butter directly to the dough after it's pressed out in the pan.  Mind you they are using a liquid butter product which is different then everyday household butter.  Have you tried this pizza with both corn oil and butter shortening in the pan?  Which do you prefer?

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 22, 2015, 06:33:04 PM
Nate,
I've only tried butter flavored Crisco in the pan.  I thought it was ok.  I wanted to experiment a bit with the crust before I brush some melted butter on it.  I'm going to try the long cold ferment this weekend.  I'll be making a batch of dough tonight.  Have you tried this yet?  How do you know they go with a three day cold ferment?  You are right about the color it's definitely more pale than I normally see with a higher ratio of corn:olive oil.
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 22, 2015, 10:13:48 PM
Nate,
I've only tried butter flavored Crisco in the pan.  I thought it was ok.  I wanted to experiment a bit with the crust before I brush some melted butter on it.  I'm going to try the long cold ferment this weekend.  I'll be making a batch of dough tonight.  Have you tried this yet?  How do you know they go with a three day cold ferment?  You are right about the color it's definitely more pale than I normally see with a higher ratio of corn:olive oil.
-Bob

  After seeing the latest vids it appears they are pouring some oil/melted butter on the dough in the pan...hope you try this Bob.
All of Nates tips are bonafide...believe that.  ;)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 25, 2015, 02:37:17 PM
Well the wife wanted to go to dinner tonight so I had to make a decision.   Let the dough cold ferment for two days or four days?  I couldn't wait so I went with two and made the pie last night.  It was good but it had a very mild beer/authentic flavor to it.  It had a pretty strong beer scent.  What was nice was that it lacked all of the off flavors I got from fermenting at room temp.  Bob, the melted butter is coming once I get that flavor.  I'm really looking forward to it.  Not doubting Nate, just curious.  I'm going to go with a three day cold ferment this week.  Nate, have you experimented at all with different cold ferment times?  Do you leave the dough out at room temp for any specific amount of time before putting it in the fridge or just go straight in?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 26, 2015, 11:01:35 AM
Nice pie Bob.  I've played around with 48hr cold ferments and that is the longest I have tried.  There are vids where marc Malnatis is claiming their dough gets a 2-3 day rise before it's ready.  Same goes for the buttercrust.  There are vids showing it being applied.

Looks like you used less corn oil this time around by crust color.  How was it vs using more corn oil?
For nailing that perfect flavor I think a switch to fresh yeast should be tried.  These big pizza places just are t using cheap grocery store yeasts.  Brand oils taste different too so we may never be able to exactly replicate it.

Straying off topic here but what are your opinions on Giordanos stuffed pizza? Do you like it?

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 26, 2015, 06:34:35 PM
I went with a 60:40 corn:vegetable. I think that is a good ratio.  I've been getting a better color to the crust using the lower corn:vegetable oil ratio.  I think it does help to allow some of the other flavors come through.  That makes perfect sense that they would be doing a cold ferment as 2-3days at room temp I would think would produce a lot of off flavors.  You make a very good point with the yeast.  I've got some dough in the fridge that will be at 72hrs on Tuesday.  If it isn't right the first thing I'm doing is going to my local bakery and buy some fresh stuff.  I know in beer brewing the yeast is key so I guess it shouldn't be any different with dough.  I've never had Giordano's.  I grew up in Phoenix where anytime you ordered a chicago deep dish pizza you ended up with a loaf of bread with cheese and sauce.  There's a place out there called Spinatos that apparently was an Aurelio's.  Their thin crust is my second favorite pizza next to Lou's,  but I haven't had many others. My whole family had come from Chicago and always ranted and raved about the pizza.  We had some Lou's to go and I was hooked.  The one time I've been out there I went to Lou's in Lincolnwood and had a couple of thin crusts from some other places in that area.  I've got a cousin that just moved to crystal lake.  I'm going to go visit him one of these days and go on a pizza binge.
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 27, 2015, 07:19:36 AM
I went with a 60:40 corn:vegetable. I think that is a good ratio.  I've been getting a better color to the crust using the lower corn:vegetable oil ratio.  I think it does help to allow some of the other flavors come through.  That makes perfect sense that they would be doing a cold ferment as 2-3days at room temp I would think would produce a lot of off flavors.  You make a very good point with the yeast.  I've got some dough in the fridge that will be at 72hrs on Tuesday.  If it isn't right the first thing I'm doing is going to my local bakery and buy some fresh stuff.  I know in beer brewing the yeast is key so I guess it shouldn't be any different with dough.  I've never had Giordano's.  I grew up in Phoenix where anytime you ordered a chicago deep dish pizza you ended up with a loaf of bread with cheese and sauce.  There's a place out there called Spinatos that apparently was an Aurelio's.  Their thin crust is my second favorite pizza next to Lou's,  but I haven't had many others. My whole family had come from Chicago and always ranted and raved about the pizza.  We had some Lou's to go and I was hooked.  The one time I've been out there I went to Lou's in Lincolnwood and had a couple of thin crusts from some other places in that area.  I've got a cousin that just moved to crystal lake.  I'm going to go visit him one of these days and go on a pizza binge.
-Bob

I need to pick up some fresh yeast and give it a shot.  I can get a giant block for $2 at my local restaurant depot and then cut it up and freeze for future use.  Let us know how the 72hr ferment turns out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 28, 2015, 09:35:02 PM
Made the three day cold ferment pie tonight.  It was very good but, still a little mild.  I'm going to try a couple more things... I'm going to add 1.5tsp of yeast ( I've been using 1tsp) and try the same exact recipe/ferment time again.  I'm also going to try fresh yeast.  I stopped by the local grocery store bakery after work but they didn't have any.  Once I find some I will give it a go.  I also think I will bump the corn:vegetable oil ratio back up to about 75:25 and see what happens.  Nate, if you try a three day ferment with dry yeast I suggest leaving the dough out for about two hours before going to the fridge or adding a bit more yeast.  I hope you try out some fresh yeast.
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on April 29, 2015, 04:39:53 PM
I am stopping out at restaurant depot soon and will pick up some yeast.  What amount did you use for the 3 day ferment?

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on April 30, 2015, 11:39:23 AM
1teaspoon/175g flour
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on May 03, 2015, 08:22:02 PM
Been doing some checking and it appears that to convert ADY amount to fresh yeast, the conversion is 2.0 - 2.66.

So if you normally use 1/2t of ADY, you'd need 1 to 1.33t of the fresh stuff.

Doesn't seem to be a difference if you use ADY or IDY in the conversion.

I eagerly await your results Nate.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on May 09, 2015, 06:05:02 PM
Last weekend I went with 1.5tsp ADY (proofed) along with 1/4tsp diastatic malt powder along with a 60:40 ratio of corn:vegetable oil.  I did a three day ferment in the refrigerator.  The flavor wasn't there. The crust was pretty bland.  This weekend I'm going with a 24hr room temperature ferment, bowl covered with a towel instead of plastic wrap, yeast added with dry ingredients and an 80:20 ratio of corn:olive oil.  I've tried this before and this was the closest to that authentic flavor I have gotten.  I am also adding a 1/4tsp of diastatic malt powder this time and I rolled the dough and folded it over itself several times before forming into a ball.  I want to see if the malt powder gives it anymore flavor (I had tried adding malt powder before but I added too much and I made an 11" pie using the 9" recipe).  I rolled and folded to see if I could get a more flaky crust.  Should have results tomorrow.  Nate, I'm looking forward to hearing how the fresh yeast turns out.  When can we expect to hear the results?
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on May 09, 2015, 08:32:14 PM
Last weekend I went with 1.5tsp ADY (proofed) along with 1/4tsp diastatic malt powder along with a 60:40 ratio of corn:vegetable oil.  I did a three day ferment in the refrigerator.  The flavor wasn't there. The crust was pretty bland.  This weekend I'm going with a 24hr room temperature ferment, bowl covered with a towel instead of plastic wrap, yeast added with dry ingredients and an 80:20 ratio of corn:olive oil.  I've tried this before and this was the closest to that authentic flavor I have gotten.  I am also adding a 1/4tsp of diastatic malt powder this time and I rolled the dough and folded it over itself several times before forming into a ball.  I want to see if the malt powder gives it anymore flavor (I had tried adding malt powder before but I added too much and I made an 11" pie using the 9" recipe).  I rolled and folded to see if I could get a more flaky crust.  Should have results tomorrow.  Nate, I'm looking forward to hearing how the fresh yeast turns out.  When can we expect to hear the results?
-Bob

I need to get out to RD to buy the yeast.  I tried some cheese from a local cheese factory and have a few pounds more to use up.  Soon as it's gone ill head over to RD and pick up some fresh yeast.  Let me know on the malt powder.  I bought some a few months ago and haven't used it yet.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on May 10, 2015, 07:42:05 PM
Tonight's pie was the best I've made.  I went with the following-
Sausage:
Nate's recipe with an extra half tsp of garlic and 1/2 tsp of grated vidalia onion.
Dough:
Nate's recipe with 1/2tsp diastatic malt powder.  Fermented with a towel cover at about 75F for 24hr. 1tsp ADY added with dry ingredients
Sauce:
Cento organic crushed tomatoes (1/2 can strained) with 1/8 cup thick pasta sauce with flavoring.
Cheese:
4oz whole milk mozzarella
4oz land of lakes part skim mozzarella

Adding the grated vidalia onion to the sausage gave it a browner color and more depth.  Covering the dough with a towel led to skin forming on the dough ball.  I put the skin side on the bottom.  This gave it a very flaky texture.  I rolled and folded the dough several times when I had originally made the dough ball.  I am not certain if this did anything but it can't hurt.  The crust was excellent.  Next I will try a 24hr room temp ferment and then a cold ferment for 24hr.  I really hope someone tries this out.
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on May 10, 2015, 08:59:56 PM
Thanks for all your meticulous documentation Sd. I'm watching closely...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on May 10, 2015, 09:45:03 PM
Bob,

Was that 175g flour and 10g semolina?  Looks great.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on May 11, 2015, 12:25:59 PM
Nate,
175g flour recipe minus the semolina, 1tsp ADY, 1/2tsp diastatic malt powder.
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on May 15, 2015, 10:04:47 PM
So I gave my shot at it. 3 day cold ferment. Took the dough out for a 6 hour RT rise before cooking. Had a nice wine smell. I used ADY because I didn't feel like buying a brick of fresh yeast at RD

I went 2.5% salt with 50/50 corn/avocado oil(Jonas style). Loved the flavor but I don't know if it had the malt flavor Nate talks about.

I brushed melted butter on the inside of the crust before filling it.

I did not use semolina although I do prefer the texture it imparts and will use it in the future. I don't know if that's more or less like Malnatis because its been several decades since I had theirs.

I would like to hear results when someone uses the fresh yeast with a 3 day ferment.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: PizzaGarage on May 15, 2015, 11:54:30 PM
That is one great looking pan!  Very nice work......

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on May 16, 2015, 11:57:56 AM
Terrific pie!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on May 16, 2015, 12:29:41 PM
That looks delicious!  How much salt does 2.5% equate to?  I remember hearing somewhere that salt inhibits yeast.  Does anyone else know more about this?  I usually use a pinch because I'm worried about adding too much and killing them off.  How much yeast did you add?
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on May 16, 2015, 08:01:45 PM
Bob, I used to think the same and only used 1% yeast but someone told me to go 2% (Scott123) and it was life changing!

No issue with inhibiting yeast. Crust has a new flavor dimension.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on May 19, 2015, 04:22:56 PM
Dr Matt,

What amounts of flour, yeast and salt did you use? 
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on May 19, 2015, 04:48:54 PM
I have an 8" pan so:
150g KAAP
46% H2O
20% oil
2.5% salt
1% sugar
1/4t ADY

And my post above should say that I use to use 1% SALT...
And I changed to 2% salt...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 02, 2015, 07:44:59 PM
Picking up some fresh yeast from RD tomorrow.  Will post results when I make up a batch.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 07, 2015, 08:03:09 PM
Picking up some fresh yeast from RD tomorrow.  Will post results when I make up a batch.

Nate

Showtime!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on June 07, 2015, 08:21:42 PM
They sure don't give you much time with that date :-0
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 07, 2015, 08:48:19 PM
They sure don't give you much time with that date :-0

It can be broken up and frozen though.  Last up to 3 months.  Only $1.30 for this huge block.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 09, 2015, 09:51:45 AM
Fresh yeast attempt with zero semolina. This was a 12hr room temp rise and the dough had a nice wine smell to it.  I thought the dough had better beer flavor from the fresh yeast but it needs to be a bit stronger.  I will definitely keep experimenting with fermentation times.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 09, 2015, 10:12:44 AM


   Good looking pizza Nate!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 09, 2015, 11:27:36 AM

   Good looking pizza Nate!  :chef:

Thanks bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on June 09, 2015, 10:39:42 PM
Fresh yeast attempt with zero semolina. This was a 12hr room temp rise and the dough had a nice wine smell to it.  I thought the dough had better beer flavor from the fresh yeast but it needs to be a bit stronger.  I will definitely keep experimenting with fermentation times.

How much fresh yeast is used, roughly? I mean, it's bulkier than dried, right?

BTW, the dough smelled like wine before baking it, or the crust smelled like wine after baking it?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 10, 2015, 07:58:52 AM
How much fresh yeast is used, roughly? I mean, it's bulkier than dried, right?

BTW, the dough smelled like wine before baking it, or the crust smelled like wine after baking it?

I used roughly double the fresh yeast vs IDY.  The dough smelt of wine before baking and a light beer flavor post bake.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: SDBob on June 13, 2015, 09:38:14 PM
I tried a couple of things over the past few weeks.  I went with a room temp fermentation for 22hr and then put in the fridge for four days.  It didn't really do much to the flavor of the crust.  The second thing I tried was adding a decent amount of salt (2%).  Dr Matt, you are absolutely right.  The salt gave the crust one of those flavors that it was missing.  I went with a 24hr room temp ferment and the crust was my favorite to date.  I will go with a little less salt next time but this addition was a big step in the right direction.  Nate, that pizza looks very nice.  I was reading something the other night about that yeast and how it's good for Danish because of its ability to still work well at lower temperatures.  I'm anxious to hear how the rest of your ferments turn out with the fresh stuff.  I'm thinking about ordering a fresh yeast from a company called white labs.  Their yeast is for brewing beer but I think it would be interesting to try it out.  I'm going to see if I can order some of the fresh stuff for baking as well. 
-Bob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 13, 2015, 09:56:48 PM
Nice pie Bob.  You must try the fresh yeast.  It is a game changer.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 09, 2015, 08:34:31 PM
Haven't posted in a awhile so I thought I'd share my latest.  Been struggling to make a good 14inch pie so I Increased the oil to 25.5% and shortened the bake and the crust was marvelous.  Made this one with some grande Mozz.  Mmm mmmm good.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on September 10, 2015, 11:21:08 PM
Tasty looking Nate!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on September 11, 2015, 05:50:28 PM
That's a fine lookin' pie!  :chef: :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 13, 2015, 06:14:19 PM
Thanks guys.  I can easily say this was the best crust I've ever made.  The shorter bake is important.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on September 13, 2015, 08:39:31 PM
Thanks guys.  I can easily say this was the best crust I've ever made.  The shorter bake is important.

What was your time and temp?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on September 14, 2015, 12:42:15 PM
What was your time and temp?

Went 27-28 mins at 475 for a 14inch.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 06, 2015, 08:42:55 AM
Made this for my wife's family in Pittsburgh and they absolutely loved it.  We moved back to my wives hometown about a month ago.  I'm pretty sure this is tops in the state of PA right now.  :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on October 06, 2015, 09:30:18 AM
Nate,

Seeing your work over the past few years, I believe it.

I wish you and your family the best with your recent move.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 06, 2015, 11:22:41 AM
Thanks Peter.  The scenery out here way better than IL.  Wildlife and hills everywhere.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 06, 2015, 02:32:48 PM
Nice pie Bob.  You must try the fresh yeast.  It is a game changer.

Nate

So, I've got this new rule. Here's how it goes. If someone can guide me to make a Chicago Deep Dish come out so incredibly well on my first two attempts, I buy fresh yeast when said individual says what was said above. Just got it yesterday. Ended up getting a RD membership just to get this stuff. I remembered where you said I could freeze it, so it's wrapped, bagged and frozen and waiting.

My question is this. Do you have a forum-post anywhere that describes your latest, preferred regimen for this formulation and protocol that includes instructions for the fresh yeast?

Thanks,

Roy

(ps - my Son has a new rule, too. I never make more than just one of these for the family again, even though it's just 3 of us.)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 06, 2015, 07:12:24 PM
So, I've got this new rule. Here's how it goes. If someone can guide me to make a Chicago Deep Dish come out so incredibly well on my first two attempts, I buy fresh yeast when said individual says what was said above. Just got it yesterday. Ended up getting a RD membership just to get this stuff. I remembered where you said I could freeze it, so it's wrapped, bagged and frozen and waiting.

My question is this. Do you have a forum-post anywhere that describes your latest, preferred regimen for this formulation and protocol that includes instructions for the fresh yeast?

Thanks,

Roy

(ps - my Son has a new rule, too. I never make more than just one of these for the family again, even though it's just 3 of us.)

What size pie will you be making?

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 06, 2015, 07:33:15 PM
Nate, I have 12-inch DD pans. I've been making 534g dough. (total weight)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 07, 2015, 10:53:20 AM
Nate, I have 12-inch DD pans. I've been making 534g dough. (total weight)

1/2 tsp fresh yeast and do a 12 hour room temp rise.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 07, 2015, 05:14:54 PM
1/2 tsp fresh yeast and do a 12 hour room temp rise.
Thanks, Nate.

is that 12 hours time adjustable at all, like with slight modifications to yeast and temps, or is that something you've tried and not seen any success with? 12 hours prior is tough to work out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 08, 2015, 08:16:11 AM
Thanks, Nate.

is that 12 hours time adjustable at all, like with slight modifications to yeast and temps, or is that something you've tried and not seen any success with? 12 hours prior is tough to work out.

Yes it can be modified.  For the beer flavor to really come out though a longer rise is needed.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 08, 2015, 06:12:32 PM
I'm not above mixing in some cold ferment time for the sake of flavor.  8)

Thanks again,

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 09, 2015, 11:59:21 PM
Alrighty, Nate. I gotta hand it to you. That's an impressive favor. I did a very warm first 90 minutes of rise time in my hot lighted microwave, went to the fridge for 12 hours and then back out into the open for 6. I guess that's a 21 hour batch of dough. All the texture was there, though I didn't remember to add butter towards the end of the mix..

I did Red Novembers MAE in part of a can of 6-in-1s and about a pound of cheese in each. Stella blend of Mozz and Provo with some Polly-O. Sausage. Pepperoni, etc. We've got an entire pie left. So much for that 2-pie rule.

This Fresh Yeast thing was indeed a big change. The flavor was as advertised, It was worth the change. I'll try some NY and Detroiters using fresh yeast, now. 

Thanks again,

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 10, 2015, 12:23:17 PM
Looks great Roy.  That a beauty right there.  I plan on trying some three day cold ferments soon with fresh yeast to see if I can maximize the crust flavor.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 10, 2015, 01:49:14 PM
Looks great Roy.  That a beauty right there.  I plan on trying some three day cold ferments soon with fresh yeast to see if I can maximize the crust flavor.

Nate
Thanks, Nate. I'm honored by your comments.  8)

I wanted to note that I reheated a slice of the leftover pie for an early lunch today. The flavor in the crust sort of matured(??) and got even better, for whatever reason. It also benefitted from a little bit of additional crisp. I'm very impressed with what you have come up with. (fwiw - 375F, 16 minutes in toaster oven. The oven was only on for about a minute before I put the tray in. LO pizza seems to bake better for me like that.)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on October 11, 2015, 06:01:53 PM
Thanks, Nate. I'm honored by your comments.  8)

I wanted to note that I reheated a slice of the leftover pie for an early lunch today. The flavor in the crust sort of matured(??) and got even better, for whatever reason. It also benefitted from a little bit of additional crisp. I'm very impressed with what you have come up with. (fwiw - 375F, 16 minutes in toaster oven. The oven was only on for about a minute before I put the tray in. LO pizza seems to bake better for me like that.)

Love the reheated slices too.  I have started going with a shorter bake at a higher temp (475) and that seems to improve the crust texture.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: rparker on October 15, 2015, 12:13:27 PM
I'll have to try that next time.

I just wanted to let you know I SWAG'd a guess at fresh yeast for NY style. I will never look back.   (Dissolved in some of the 85F water, took my regular .18% IDY and went somewhere between 1.5X and 2X the amount. My notes are somewhere where I have yet to look. )

Thanks again for your great thread(s) on the DD. I'll lurk back sometime and find a good Chicago thin style. I'm hoping your prints are all over that one, too.  8)

Take care,

Roy
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Used butter flavored crisco in the pan
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on October 20, 2015, 05:00:54 PM
Here is the process...
Mix again with your spoon until it all comes together.  Then you need to hand mix it gently for about 1.5-2 mins (I use one hand for this).  You want to make sure you get most of the clumps of oil incorporated into the dough. 

Nate,

In your original recipe, you wrote that "hand mix it gently for about 1.5-2 mins". Does it mean you don't knead the dough at all? Just basically mix it like in this video below ? I assume that your dough is not as wet as this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gSP6V45dt8#t=54

Thanks.

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Used butter flavored crisco in the pan
Post by: pythonic on October 21, 2015, 10:19:37 AM
Nate,

In your original recipe, you wrote that "hand mix it gently for about 1.5-2 mins". Does it mean you don't knead the dough at all? Just basically mix it like in this video below ? I assume that your dough is not as wet as this one...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gSP6V45dt8#t=54

Thanks.

Here is how I mix it.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=CjoYZjj2tVU
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Used butter flavored crisco in the pan
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on October 21, 2015, 01:07:29 PM
Here is how I mix it.
...

Nate, thank you very much! That's what I exactly was looking for.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on October 22, 2015, 04:21:34 PM
Looks like a fake recipe from Marc Malnati :)

http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/chicago-style-pizza-recipe.html
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stevezilla on November 03, 2015, 10:43:01 AM
I am a little surprised, but I don't think that this thread mentions what temperature water to use anywhere.  Can you please clarify, Nate?

thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on November 03, 2015, 02:12:19 PM
I just got this yesterday:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V5IM5PY/?tag=pmak-20

Looks a decent scale so far, easy to use with 1 g increments.

I'll prep a 10 inch pie using Nate's recipe. What would you guys/gals recommend for cooking time and temperature for the following:

10" pie
Dough with 240g flour
3/4 lbs cheese
7 ounces of tomato sauce

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on November 03, 2015, 02:29:49 PM
I am a little surprised, but I don't think that this thread mentions what temperature water to use anywhere.  Can you please clarify, Nate?

thanks,
Steve

I would guess about 85F
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on November 03, 2015, 02:31:47 PM
I just got this yesterday:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00V5IM5PY/?tag=pmak-20

Looks a decent scale so far, easy to use with 1 g increments.

I'll prep a 10 inch pie using Nate's recipe. What would you guys/gals recommend for cooking time and temperature for the following:

10" pie
Dough with 240g flour
3/4 lbs cheese
7 ounces of tomato sauce

Thanks.

Preheat stone to 500.  Reduce oven temp to 450 and bake for 26-27 mins.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on November 03, 2015, 02:33:47 PM
Thanks Nate :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stevezilla on November 03, 2015, 09:16:56 PM
I would like to make a really proper one of these for myself in the near future.  But for tonight I had to settle for putting together one with leftovers, and then giving it away.  Details in my pizza thread. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39901.msg401727#msg401727

Thanks for sharing all your work, it is very helpful.  My favorite part of the mixing video is when you have to put down the camera.  Almost so easy you can make this one handed. One day i'll have to get to chicago and try one from Lou Malnatis and see how it compares.

Steve
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on November 07, 2015, 03:47:50 PM
Preheat stone to 500.  Reduce oven temp to 450 and bake for 26-27 mins.

Thanks Nate the pizza turned out great, especially the crust! It had crispness along the bottom and sides and softer crumblyish texture inside. I used Trader Joe's whole milk Mozzarella and sauce made with 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes. I might need to bake it ~3 more minutes for the ultimate perfection:)

I made another batch of the same dough and resting it in the fridge for three days. Let's see if I'll be able to tell the difference. I'm using ADY.

For the ones using fresh yeast, are you also cold rising it in the fridge?

Thanks
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on November 10, 2015, 04:30:09 PM
Thanks Nate the pizza turned out great, especially the crust! It had crispness along the bottom and sides and softer crumblyish texture inside. I used Trader Joe's whole milk Mozzarella and sauce made with 6 in 1 crushed tomatoes. I might need to bake it ~3 more minutes for the ultimate perfection:)

I made another batch of the same dough and resting it in the fridge for three days. Let's see if I'll be able to tell the difference. I'm using ADY.

For the ones using fresh yeast, are you also cold rising it in the fridge?

Thanks

Glad it turned out good for you.  I've been doing room temp rises with the fresh yeast.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on November 11, 2015, 12:38:25 AM
Thanks Nate.

I tried the 4 day fridge + 3 hours room temperature aged dough today. The dough taste wise it was better/interesting/yeastier but I'd say not by a huge margin. However, texture wise it turned out very good. The bottom and sides crisped up well and inside it had more uniform holes and not doughy at all. It did cook more uniformly. I'll try a 6 hour room temperate rising again soon to compare. By the way, I'm just using olive oil in the dough and to oil the pan before baking.

It turns out that my Kroger clone supermarket carries fresh yeast:

http://www.breadworld.com/product/fresh-active-yeast

It's like $1.69 a packet. Apparently that's equivalent to 2 1/4 tsp ADY. But since I've been looking for it, they've been out! It's at the top shelf next to the butters in the dairy section.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on December 02, 2015, 09:18:06 AM
Next time someone makes this try adding some dry basil, oregano, garlic powder, salt and parm on top of the entire pie before baking.  Flavor was outstanding!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on December 02, 2015, 12:19:16 PM
That looks yummy :)

I've been experimenting with fresh yeast. I haven't noticed much flavor difference though vs ADY. I tried both 3-day fridge and 6-hour room temp rises. I'll do one more time fresh yeast room temp rise.

I'm looking forward to Friday for pizza night :)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on December 02, 2015, 03:48:21 PM
That looks yummy :)

I've been experimenting with fresh yeast. I haven't noticed much flavor difference though vs ADY. I tried both 3-day fridge and 6-hour room temp rises. I'll do one more time fresh yeast room temp rise.

I'm looking forward to Friday for pizza night :)

I get a ton more flavor when I use fresh yeast.  Make sure you add a ton.  I do a 6-9hr room temp rise.  I've been working part time at a pizza shop so I can buy my grande for $2/lb. Great cheese really helps the finished product.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on December 02, 2015, 04:11:40 PM
I've never knowingly had Grande before! That's a great deal, $2/lbs! I should ask around to get some!

I'm thinking about mixing TJs Mozzarella with Kerrygold Dubliner cheese. That Kerrygold has a flavor similar to cheddar+gruyere+parmesan. It's great in grilled cheeses. It's $5.50/lb at Costco. One of the best tasting cheeses for the money. I'm thinking maybe 65% Mozzarella + 35% Kerrygold.   

http://kerrygoldusa.com/products/dubliner-cheese?gclid=Cj0KEQiAyvqyBRChq_iG38PgvLgBEiQAJbasd9redBzT8qzCoDAJTQE4K5cBvYfRhaxQdAG68GdcrXkaAk598P8HAQ

For the fresh yeast how much are you using? I'm using about 6 grams of fresh yeast for 240g of flour. Are you using a much higher ratio?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on December 02, 2015, 04:37:12 PM
I'm probably using 10g for 185g of flour.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on December 02, 2015, 04:52:33 PM
Thanks. For that amount of fresh yeast, are you adjusting how much water you put in the dough? Doesn't it over rise though with that amount of yeast? Rise and then collapse? 

Based on only two trials, I'm finding that if I add 5g of fresh yeast, I need to subtract 5g of water otherwise the dough noticeably gets wetter (or maybe it's the weather, I'm not sure yet).

By the way, I did some reading about using fresh yeast. Some people were commenting that if you use small amounts but do long rise in the fridge for multiple days, there's not much taste difference with respect to the dry yeasts. But if you use a lot of fresh yeast and do a fast room temp rise, then you get the added flavor difference most likely due to the extra "stuff" (dead yeasts?) in the fresh yeast. This is inline with what you guys have been discussing :)




Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on December 02, 2015, 10:18:34 PM
For the fresh yeast you are supposed to use double as you would for the dry yeast.  My dough doesn't get any wetter.  I stick with 46% water and 23% oil.  Doing longer rises requires more sugar in the dough as well.  When the dough rises a lot I will gently press it down and let it rise again like you would with bread dough.

Nate
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2015, 11:08:41 PM
Nate,

Technically, the amount of fresh yeast would be double the weight of ADY or triple the weight of IDY. Fresh yeast is about 70% water but it is still too small to warrant reduction of the formula water.

Peter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chinook_Pdx on December 03, 2015, 01:12:37 PM
Thank you guys. If I can get some more fresh yeast tomorrow, I'll try 10g+ yeast in my dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on December 03, 2015, 02:42:43 PM
Nate,

Technically, the amount of fresh yeast would be double the weight of ADY or triple the weight of IDY. Fresh yeast is about 70% water but it is still too small to warrant reduction of the formula water.

Peter

Thanks Peter.  I knew it was double one of them.  Haha.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on December 03, 2015, 03:06:04 PM

   Whatever the amount is that last pie you posted is killer pizza dude!!  Wow  :o

Is that your thinner version Nate...dressed out in traditional way...sauce bottom, etc.  The pizza looks incredibly delicious man...more than worthy of another look... ;D

....guess I do see tomato on top.  She a beauty!


Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzasmut on May 20, 2016, 02:25:19 PM
Is this thread too old to revive? I'm working on this now and wanted to know if pythonic ever got to the 3 day cold rise?

Through the experimenting I've been doing it seems that adding the oil in with the flour first is really the key to flakey (and using leif lard will take it up to the next level I've found but you miss some of the flavor from the corn oil). Where I'm having trouble is small oil spots in the dough getting hard on occasion (?) and over proofing. I also can't seem to get that beer flavor.

Those videos of the Lou M dough (here: "http://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/2s91m79c80?canonicalUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.loumalnatis.com%2Fabout-the-pizza&canonicalTitle=Best%20Pizza%20in%20Chicago%20%7C%20Lou%20Malnati's%20Restaurants" ) it's almost firm and super bubbly. That's got to be from a long rise, right?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on May 24, 2016, 10:32:12 AM
Is this thread too old to revive? I'm working on this now and wanted to know if pythonic ever got to the 3 day cold rise?

Through the experimenting I've been doing it seems that adding the oil in with the flour first is really the key to flakey (and using leif lard will take it up to the next level I've found but you miss some of the flavor from the corn oil). Where I'm having trouble is small oil spots in the dough getting hard on occasion (?) and over proofing. I also can't seem to get that beer flavor.

Those videos of the Lou M dough (here: "http://fast.wistia.net/embed/iframe/2s91m79c80?canonicalUrl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.loumalnatis.com%2Fabout-the-pizza&canonicalTitle=Best%20Pizza%20in%20Chicago%20%7C%20Lou%20Malnati's%20Restaurants" ) it's almost firm and super bubbly. That's got to be from a long rise, right?

You will get the beer flavor from a longer ferment or by using fresh yeast.  For the best crust flavor I would try the fresh yeast route if you can and do a 3 day cold ferment.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzasmut on June 19, 2016, 06:18:32 AM
Here's my formula for this weeks dough, trying to show off for some non-American friends that have never had the read deal. Just found some corn-oil in the local Chinese import store (corn oil isn't so popular outside of the US), so looking forward to that mild corn flavor hint I've been trying to get through putting polenta in the pan under the crust. Also, I'm using fresh yeast this go around.

Flour (100%):    297.23 g  |  10.48 oz | 0.66 lbs
Water (45%):    133.75 g  |  4.72 oz | 0.29 lbs
ADY (0.7%):    2.08 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
Salt (0.8%):    2.38 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.43 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
Corn Oil (12%):    35.67 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.93 tsp | 2.64 tbsp
Canola Oil (12%):    35.67 g | 1.26 oz | 0.08 lbs | 7.85 tsp | 2.62 tbsp
Sugar (.7%):    2.08 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.52 tsp | 0.17 tbsp
Total (171.2%):   508.85 g | 17.95 oz | 1.12 lbs | TF = 0.12221

Does this look right? It seems like a much larger total weight than others, although I'm using an 11" pan versus the 9" a lot of people on here use. Also, it's going to be two day rise in the fridge, so I upped the sugar content a smidge.

Also, from my last attempt, for anybody struggling with their oven, I started using a stone on the bottom of my electric oven and using a cookie sheet over the pizza and it cooks way more evenly. No more worrying about the top burning but still get a nice brown crust.

Will post pictures on Wednesday.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: HansB on June 19, 2016, 08:29:38 AM
Oil at 24% seems high, I'll be watching to see how that works out.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzasmut on June 19, 2016, 09:49:40 AM
I split the difference after seeing pies ranging from lows around 20% to a high at 25.5% in this thread. I actually ended up measuring a bit lower than 24, so let's see how it goes.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 19, 2016, 12:58:16 PM
24% is close to being right.  It's all about how good the oven is and personal preferences.  You don't want to eat them weekly though unless you want to gain 2 lbs a week.  Haha.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on June 19, 2016, 09:48:36 PM
Just thought I'd throw a little kink into this 15 page discussion.  Any woman who bakes a pie knows very well that the key to a flaky crust is LARD.  I will try your recipes for the 9" pan, and do corn oil in one and lard in the other.  I'm betting LARD wins the flaky, but I will grease both pans with butter flavored Crisco, and use melted REAL BUTTER on the top of the dough prior to adding the cheese and all the ingredients.  Just saying.....  Lard makes crusts flaky.  Butter does not.  Crisco does not.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzasmut on June 20, 2016, 01:30:50 AM
While not a woman, I've done the lard thing and what you gain in flakey you lose in flavor I think you'll find. But you do gain in flakey! Would recommend a mix with some corn oil for that slight corn flavor. But the proof is in the pudding, so looking forward to your results, DD.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 20, 2016, 11:55:58 AM
Just thought I'd throw a little kink into this 15 page discussion.  Any woman who bakes a pie knows very well that the key to a flaky crust is LARD.  I will try your recipes for the 9" pan, and do corn oil in one and lard in the other.  I'm betting LARD wins the flaky, but I will grease both pans with butter flavored Crisco, and use melted REAL BUTTER on the top of the dough prior to adding the cheese and all the ingredients.  Just saying.....  Lard makes crusts flaky.  Butter does not.  Crisco does not.

Yes but we don't want pie nor biscuit crust.  Chicago deep dish is in between.  The key is the short knead as you don't want to develop the gluten.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on June 21, 2016, 11:03:01 AM
Yeah, we've been down the road with lard before.  The key, as Pythonic pointed out, is the lack of gluten and high fat content which give it the short texture (i.e., as opposed to long and chewy, like the breadbombs sold at Papa John's, et al.).
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzasmut on June 21, 2016, 12:13:42 PM
Okay, here's my update. I'd like to preface this with the fact that I'm living in Europe and my options for ingredients are pretty damn poor. Certainly better cheese and tomato sauce will take this up a notch or two.

4 hour room temp rise, pushed it down and it went in the fridge for 48 hours. Had a little bit of that wine smell, but the beer flavor was still missing to me. I think I'll try a little barley malt next time to see if that helps. I was using fresh yeast so I thought it would come through this time. Even upped it to almost two teaspoons, but no love.

Oven was up around 475 on a stone. Rubbed the inside of the pan with corn oil and use a little polenta sprinkled in that before the dough went it. Used my method of putting a cookie sheet over the pizza for the cook, and it was done in about 25 minutes. Sausage was a 20% fat 80/20 blend of pork and beef because it was all I could find. Next time I go with as low fat as possible and only pork.

Crust was done, nice and crispy on the outside and soft on the inside, but still a bit heavy. Has anybody done a mix of lower protein and AP? Also, would a dough conditioner (as I'm sure those big chains must use) help? No idea where I'd get cream of tartar, but could order if it will make the difference.

Any ideas on the beer flavor? This was for sure my best pie so far, but dream of that Malnati's beer flavor.  :drool:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on June 23, 2016, 01:53:16 PM
I've read through this entire thread.  Is there any reason why you don't dissolve the dough in the water prior to adding it?  Most yeast recipes do that.  I know you just sprinkle it in the dough when it's half mixed.  Why do you do that?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 24, 2016, 02:27:40 PM
I've read through this entire thread.  Is there any reason why you don't dissolve the dough in the water prior to adding it?  Most yeast recipes do that.  I know you just sprinkle it in the dough when it's half mixed.  Why do you do that?

Using just instant dry yeast.  If using active you must dissolve though.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on June 24, 2016, 02:58:32 PM
Okay, here's my update. I'd like to preface this with the fact that I'm living in Europe and my options for ingredients are pretty damn poor. Certainly better cheese and tomato sauce will take this up a notch or two.

4 hour room temp rise, pushed it down and it went in the fridge for 48 hours. Had a little bit of that wine smell, but the beer flavor was still missing to me. I think I'll try a little barley malt next time to see if that helps. I was using fresh yeast so I thought it would come through this time. Even upped it to almost two teaspoons, but no love.

Oven was up around 475 on a stone. Rubbed the inside of the pan with corn oil and use a little polenta sprinkled in that before the dough went it. Used my method of putting a cookie sheet over the pizza for the cook, and it was done in about 25 minutes. Sausage was a 20% fat 80/20 blend of pork and beef because it was all I could find. Next time I go with as low fat as possible and only pork.

Crust was done, nice and crispy on the outside and soft on the inside, but still a bit heavy. Has anybody done a mix of lower protein and AP? Also, would a dough conditioner (as I'm sure those big chains must use) help? No idea where I'd get cream of tartar, but could order if it will make the difference.

Any ideas on the beer flavor? This was for sure my best pie so far, but dream of that Malnati's beer flavor.  :drool:

Try fresh yeast for beer flavor.  Huge difference.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on June 24, 2016, 03:30:05 PM
I'm gathering everything to try your recipes.  This week my pans arrived.  Both 9".  They are different.  The one ordered from Malnati's is heavier, made in USA and 1/2" shorter than the one I got from webrestaurantstore.com.  Now I get to season them about 4 times!  :-) 

I also finally found whole milk mozzarella at a store here in California named Smart & Final.  It caters to restaurants.  The brand was Galbani http://galbanicheese.com/pub/sorrentogalbani-11377800477_1_1396037480.pdf .  I got a 5 lb. brick for $11.00  It melts like a dream and is really stretchy!  I'm still driven crazy that I live in a dairy cow town but they ship everything to WI!!  I'll take my cheese from Buffalo, NY!

I couldn't find your preferred brand of tomatoes here but I did find Certo San Marzano plum tomatoes.  Also bought some seeds so I can grow my own. 

Next I felt really smug having the butcher coarsely grind a pork shoulder for $0.99 lb, so it cost me $6.00!  OMG!  The stuff is so lean I had to add olive oil just to get a crust on it for a test fry.  Now I had to go to the Spanish translation thing online and I'm ready to go to one of the Mexican Meat Markets around here to ask for una libra de grasa de cerdo otherwise known as one lb. of pork fat.  I'll divide it in 6 parts and grind it with my 6 lbs of ground pork, one lb at a time, and hopefully it will add flavor and juiciness to my homemade sausage.

I'm planning to season the pans and make the dough this weekend (2 batches) and have the neighbors over for a test run mid week.  Wish me luck!

I only have one pizza stone, but double ovens.  Do I need another stone for two pizzas, or can I do one without?  They are pretty cheap at webRestaurantStore.com.  I love grilling our thin crusts.  Might need a pizza peel too.  They are cheap there also.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: alliekat on June 27, 2016, 12:27:33 PM
I am a new forum member and have a question regarding your Feb. 2014 post where you provided the process for making the Lou Malnati's pizza dough. In that post you said "Place stone on 2nd rack and preheat to 425.  Preheat stone for additional 45 mins.  ". I am inferring from this that you place your deep dish pizza pan on a pizza stone when baking the pizza. Can you confirm? Just want to make sure I'm understanding your process completely. Yours is the first recipe/process that looks like it results in the Lou Malnati's crust I an craving. I used to live in Chicago and really miss Lou's pizza and am dying to try to make it myself. Thx.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on June 27, 2016, 08:31:30 PM
Not sure who's post that was, but you don't preheat your pan -just the oven and the stone, which should be on the lowest rack.
If you're baking at 425, I'd recommend preheating your oven & stone for an hour at 500 degrees, then turn down the oven to your chosen baking temp right before you put your pizza in the oven.

** update - that was Pythonic's post: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=30152.msg301030#msg301030
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on June 29, 2016, 10:37:47 AM
Nate, I used your recipe exactly.  Even bought a kitchen weighing thingy on Amazon that does grams.  I was kind of mystified that there is only 1/4 tsp IDY to the thing, but I followed that also.  I put 3 batches in the fridge.  It's been 24 hours.  I see nothing has grown.  Nothing has doubled or even swollen. ???  Company is coming Friday night, and I'm making two pizzas.  They are expecting authentic Chicago deep dish!

Now what?  Do I start over with more yeast?

I winged my first one with my own sour dough starter (began it in Denver in 2008) and it turned out great.  Doubled quickly.  But I'm trying to be authentic here.  I'm getting panicked.  Today is Wed.  I can start again.  Maybe let it rise in the warm kitchen and THEN put it in the fridge?  I can't serve my neighbors nothing!

Thanks for your help
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on June 29, 2016, 10:40:25 PM
Nate...  I put 3 batches in the fridge.  It's been 24 hours.  I see nothing has grown.  Nothing has doubled or even swollen. ???  Company is coming Friday night, and I'm making two pizzas.  They are expecting authentic Chicago deep dish!

Now what?  Do I start over with more yeast?

First of all, I'm not Nate, but I'm here to help.

Secondly, never make any recipe for the first time for company.  That's hosting rule #1.   ;D

Finally, forget the "doubling." Deep dish dough doesn't necessarily do that, especially not cold rise dough.  Look at it more closely.  Pick it up.  Does it deflate a little?  Does it have an airy structure?  If your yeast is good, 1/4 tsp will leaven anything.  Remember, yeast multiplies exponentially.  You're probably fine.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mrmojo1 on June 30, 2016, 03:02:16 AM
Amen Nate!!!  heh heh!!  when using packet yeast use try 2 packets from 2 different packets of 3 in case you get bad yeast and yes i have gotten bad yeast!!...dead...nothing...but i have found the jar of ADY AND IDY  to last long and are very good.  also add water to your yeast as the 1st part of your dough making process, wait and watch after  5-10 min you should start to see some activity  add a pinch of sugar...you should start to see a lot more activity!  then add the rest of your ingredients.  i now add salt when i add the dry ingredients, sometimes when i added salt with water and yeast i think i got a yeast kill.....i also like the saf yeast!  it has remained potent going over 1 year in the fridge!  lastly i always add a little more when it comes to yeast...i am yeast generous, i don't think I've ever regretted it...but activate it first and you won't lose!!  and i think you got it right!  a long cold ferment.  this dough is heavy!!  and oily in my opinion!  but delicious!! 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 01, 2016, 10:06:49 AM
Tonight's the night! 

This morning I took the dough balls out of the fridge. I took 2 back-ups and 1 Fail. Thanks to advice of a friend, I tore open the Fail (Nate's Recipe), patted it out, sprinkled more yeast, flipped it, more yeast, and softly patted it back into shape. You are supposed to handle this dough as little as possible. I will say, that fail was loaded with yummy yeast pockets when I pulled it apart.

So this morning here is the result of my two pizza dough attempts. The two back ups are for 2 10" pizzas. My pans are 9" so I'll have to cut some off and freeze for another day. The small ball is the FAIL, now rejuvenating on the kitchen counter with additional yeast.  The FAIL doesn't smell like anything.  The two Back-ups smell like beer.

I'll post pictures of the finished pizzas.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 01, 2016, 03:35:33 PM
Looks good.  Let us know how it goes.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 01, 2016, 10:59:08 PM
Tonight's the night! 

This morning I took the dough balls out of the fridge. I took 2 back-ups and 1 Fail. Thanks to advice of a friend, I tore open the Fail (Nate's Recipe), patted it out, sprinkled more yeast, flipped it, more yeast, and softly patted it back into shape. You are supposed to handle this dough as little as possible. I will say, that fail was loaded with yummy yeast pockets when I pulled it apart.

So this morning here is the result of my two pizza dough attempts. The two back ups are for 2 10" pizzas. My pans are 9" so I'll have to cut some off and freeze for another day. The small ball is the FAIL, now rejuvenating on the kitchen counter with additional yeast.  The FAIL doesn't smell like anything.  The two Back-ups smell like beer.

I'll post pictures of the finished pizzas.

Before putting into fridge for the cold ferment I would still do a 2hr blast of 100-110 degrees in your oven to get the yeast started.  As soon as it oven hits that temp turn it off.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:44:18 AM
Thanks to all of you for your suggestions.  They will help me improve next time. 

I made the two pizzas.  The guests arrived and commented on the wonderful aroma.  A little tip.  I saved the watery juice when I was draining the tomatoes for the sauce, blended it with watermelon, jalapeno, cucumber, onion, etc, and served everyone spicy Watermelon Gazpacho Shooters as we cut the pizzas.

I put the Fail in my new (well seasoned) pan from Malnati's.  I put the backup in my new (well seasoned) pan from webrestaurantstore.  That way I could tell them apart.  We were unable to get either one out of the pans, so we had to take our slices IN the pan.  The guests knew we were comparing crusts.  Fillings were identical.

The guests raved about the backup crust.  "It's so buttery and I've never had a crust this good." "I'll come here again for this pizza!  How about tomorrow?"  They loved the FAIL too, but the crust was too thin and a little hard.  The backup won this race.  I'll try Nate's recipe again with GOOD yeast, but just for me and hubby.  Even with my rescue operations there just wasn't enough to cover the pan bottom and up the sides.  Luckily I had leftover dough from the backup (designed for a 10" pan), so I was able to patch.

Here are the photos.  It was a little hard to get a shot of the side of the crust cuz we were actually enjoying our guests.  My computer won't post all the photos in one post, so I'll have to do more posts.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:47:05 AM
Here is a photo of the dough pressed in the pans.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:48:52 AM
Here is a photo pre baking.  Malnati's pan is 1/2" shorter than the one from Webrestaurantstore.  I used it for the fail because there just wasn't enough Fail dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:50:23 AM
Baked Pizza in the Fail dough.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:50:56 AM
And the Backup Baked...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on July 02, 2016, 10:15:27 PM
What recipe did you use for the backup dough?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 02, 2016, 11:54:16 PM
I used http://kpbworld.com/cook_n/recipes/pizza_dough_dd_cornmeal.html (http://kpbworld.com/cook_n/recipes/pizza_dough_dd_cornmeal.html) but substituted semolina for the corn meal.  It's not anything like your recipe, but it was really tasty.  I might play with it a little, but I still want to have success with yours!  The wife of the couple that had dinner stopped by today and told me that her husband hasn't stopped raving about that pizza they had over here last night!  Woo Hoo!  They loved the fail too, but the backup won.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mugwump on July 07, 2016, 02:54:52 AM
So is the crisco still used in the pan instead of oil?  I used to use the crisco, but in the past few years it's been oil -- similar to the old Lou Malnati videos that used to circulate around here.

Going by the post above, I went to a local Smart & Final and got a 5 lbs block of Galbani whole milk mozzarella.  That brand used to be Precious, and I will be very interested to see how it melts compared to my typical brand Frigo (saputo / stella) which costs more.  Taste wise, the Frigo tastes better but it seems a bit harder.

Good approach to sauce:  1 can Trader Joe's whole tomatoes no salt, a few pulses in a food processor to chop them, drain for a minute or two, and 1/2 small can of "Contadina Paste with Italian Herbs" mixed in.  That's it.  The flavored paste gives the sauce a commercial taste that kids like.  Contadina was the original Chicago canned tomato brand.

Crust wise, my latest formula seems to be the following for a 14": 
Caputo 00 Flour 154 grams
King Arthur Bread Flour 222 grams
Water (44%) 165 grams
SAF Instant Dry Yeast (3%) 11 grams
Salt (1%) 4 grams
Olive Oil (4%) 15 grams (not extra-virgin)
Oil (17%) 64 grams
Sugar (2%) 7 grams
Total: 643g

The instant yeast is great: just mix it in with the dry ingredients, add in the warm water and oils, minimal kneading, wait 20 minutes until it starts to rise, then toss it into the fridge for a few days.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: DesertDance on July 07, 2016, 04:05:24 PM
@Mugwump, I used butter flavored Crisco to grease my pans.  Corn and Olive oils IN the dough.

Tonight, hubby will be out of town, so I retrieved one of my "fail dough balls" from the fridge, and found a cute little cast iron pan in the garage in which to bake a personal pizza.  The pan belonged to my late MIL, and it's from CHICAGO, so it should work fine!  8" in diam.  Since the "Fail" dough was too small for a 9", it should be fine here.  Since it's just me, and I don't want to open a whole can of tomatoes, making my own sauce from garden grown ones.  The sauce is amazing!  All I did was scald to remove the skins.  Then I boiled the tomatoes for a little bit.  Let them cool and crushed them with my fingers.  Strained the juice a few times.  Perfect.  And so sweet!  Nothing like the canned ones.  Just added some salt and oregano. 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Bigfkd22 on December 03, 2016, 11:09:27 PM

Nate is the man! This was as close to Lou as I've ever had!
Thanks
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Hammer77 on January 16, 2017, 08:33:56 AM
First off thanks to Nate for bringing this thread to life. And a very special thanks to Peter for helping me behind the scenes to expand Nate's original formula from post #1 to fit my 12" pan. All in all it turned out okay for me. I know it was all my own doing, and not to reflect on this thread. My reason for posting this here is to hopefully gain some more knowledge to replicate this fine pie myself. So please any and all constructive criticism is appreciated. I only have pics of the finished product, but will explain.

I followed the process to a T. The dough was different to what I am used to with the lower hydration. But came together and gained size in the time of rise. Building the pies was pretty straight forward. However working the dough in the pan, by the time I got to pull up the sides, I did have a couple small bare spots to patch together. It seemed kind of thin on the bottom. Then I finished dressing the pie. I baked a 450, with others sharing bake times I figured I would shoot for about a 33 minute bake time. Here is where I messed up. I did the aluminum foil tent for the last 10 minutes. Overall is was good but crunchy on the bottom, and really crunchy on the side crust. I overcooked it. Still ate it! ;D

Questions,
1.In your opinion should I cut back on the bake time or temp, or both?
2.How thick would you say the bottom and sides of the prebaked pie should be?
3.When you put the butter flavored Crisco, how much do you use?

Here are the pics. This my first attempt at Chicago DD, and the first I ever had that I can think of. BTW in there is Nate's sausage recipe, very good. Thanks for that too Nate!

Dave.
Title: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 29, 2019, 12:00:41 AM
So Iíve been playing with this for years. I think I just had the best DD yet. The key is mixing the dough properly. Nate has a video of it somewhere.

7-28-2019
Updated recipe
325 g KAAP
5% semolina
50g oil - 1/2 evoo & 1/2 avocado oil - thatís ~15%
160g water - ~ 50%
2% salt
1% sugar
1/2t yeast
250g mozz
48 hour ferment

Painted unsalted melted butter on inside of crust, put regular sauce on bottom (I know this is not traditional but adds flavor and prevents dryness). Lined bottom(on top of sauce) with pepperoni, 6oz sausage (Garvey recipe), spread mozzarella over that then put small jar(12 oz) of drained 74/40 on top (no seasoning needed). Cook @425į- convection on a stone, middle rack- for 15 minutes, rotate and finish for another 10 minutes. Da Bomb!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 29, 2019, 12:08:01 AM
So Iíve been playing with this for years. I think I just had the best DD yet. The key is mixing the dough properly. Nate has a video of it somewhere.

7-28-2019
Updated recipe
325 g KAAP
5% semolina
50g oil - 1/2 evoo & 1/2 avocado oil - thatís ~15%
160g water - ~ 50%
2% salt
1% sugar
1/2t yeast
250g mozz
48 hour ferment

Painted unsalted melted butter on inside of crust, put regular sauce on bottom (I know this is not traditional but adds flavor and prevents dryness). Lined bottom(on top of sauce) with pepperoni, 6oz sausage (Garvey recipe), spread mozzarella over that then put small jar(12 oz) of drained 74/40 on top (no seasoning needed). Cook @425į- convection - for 15 minutes, rotate and finish for another 10 minutes. Da Bomb!



     Yes, yes, yes.... Looks like just what I needed....I like the reverse method to keep away from a water bomb.... I'm on this one Doc...grasias pizza pal... Nice work!!   :chef:

  She's a beauty. 👩‍🚀
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 29, 2019, 12:10:35 AM
Thanks there Bob. Good to be back and great to hear from you!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: novawaly on August 01, 2019, 08:53:53 AM
So Iíve been playing with this for years. I think I just had the best DD yet. The key is mixing the dough properly. Nate has a video of it somewhere.

7-28-2019
Updated recipe
325 g KAAP
5% semolina
50g oil - 1/2 evoo & 1/2 avocado oil - thatís ~15%
160g water - ~ 50%
2% salt
1% sugar
1/2t yeast
250g mozz
48 hour ferment

Painted unsalted melted butter on inside of crust, put regular sauce on bottom (I know this is not traditional but adds flavor and prevents dryness). Lined bottom(on top of sauce) with pepperoni, 6oz sausage (Garvey recipe), spread mozzarella over that then put small jar(12 oz) of drained 74/40 on top (no seasoning needed). Cook @425į- convection on a stone, middle rack- for 15 minutes, rotate and finish for another 10 minutes. Da Bomb!

Great looking pie. Do you mind going into a little more detail about mixing mixing process (tried to find the link to Nate's video that you referenced and couldn't)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on August 01, 2019, 10:01:35 AM
Avocado oil?  Is that like adding ginger?   :-D
Title: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on August 03, 2019, 12:45:23 AM
Great looking pie. Do you mind going into a little more detail about mixing mixing process (tried to find the link to Nate's video that you referenced and couldn't)
[/quote]

I get all my dry ingredients in a bowl and mix them with a whisk. I then add oil. I then take a tablespoon and mix the dry ingredients from the side of the bowl to the center as I rotate the bowl around. DO NOT BREAK UP THE CLUMPS OF OIL!!!

Once the oil doesnít soak up any more flour, then you can add water. I then continue to mix the same way with the spoon from the edge of the bowl to the center while rotating. Thereís going to come a point where you will just have to use your hand. It will probably need about half a dozen squeezes and take the ball and wipe the sides of the bowl clean.

This is what the dough kinda looks like. This has risen but you can still see the clumps of oil and non homogeneous appearance.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on August 03, 2019, 12:24:37 PM
^^ this.  It's kinda like cutting fat into flour for pies, pastries, or biscuits.  Normally, those are solid fats (shortening, butter, lard), but it's the same concept here for deep dish.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 03, 2019, 12:35:16 PM
It's how we made dough in the pizza joints back in the 70's...... Start out with only flour, salt and lard in the bowl and use the big wisk. Few minutes to pebble stage then switch to the hook, slowly add in the wet.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: ATLBob on September 09, 2019, 11:03:23 PM
Gentlemen,
Itís been a while.  Life got crazy, made a few pizzas, lost my password, couldnít remember the email address I used and yada, yada, yada I finally got my hands on some fresh yeast.  Iím making my first fresh yeast deep dish this Friday.  Pics below are from a couple weeks ago.  Iíve added a bit of garlic powder to the crust.  It gives it a little something extra.

-The pizza maker formerly known as SDBob
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 12, 2019, 09:48:10 AM



    Welcome back Bob!
And good luck with the new yeast.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: ATLBob on September 14, 2019, 05:51:38 AM
Thanks Bob!  Iím going to be making a Chicago thin pretty soon, so Iíve got to read through some of your threads.  I ended up getting a cheap version of the green egg (Acorn) and it has been awesome for making thinner styles.  It gets up to around 700F, so the crusts on my thin styles have turned out as close to a real pizzerias as Iíve ever been able to make.

So I went with 3tsp of the fresh yeast which is 3x what I use for ADY.  I honestly didnít see a big difference.  It tasted a bit better, but that may be in my head.  If I did a blind taste test Iím not sure Iíd be able to tell the difference.  I did a 14hr ferment at room temp then put in the fridge for 8hr.  Dough hadnít relaxed enough from when I kneaded it, so I had a bit off pull back (you can see it made for a lower and fatter top edge) when I was pressing it out in the pan, but other than that everything was normal.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on January 11, 2020, 09:09:15 PM
Nate, thanks for sharing your process and evolution with this formula. I made it on New Year's day and it was fantastic. By far my most authentic DD pie to date, and I have you and the other members here to thank.

I calculated the formula for a 12" pie with 0.12 TF.

315g flour blend (95% KAAP, 5% semolina)
145g water (46%)
66g oil blend (13% corn oil, 8% vegetable oil)
1.93g IDY (0.61%)
2.38g salt (0.75%)
1.70g sugar (0.53%)

38 hr cold ferment.

On baking day, I brought the dough out and left it covered for 4 hours at room temp.

I set a stone on the bottom oven rack and put a heavy sheet of foil on the 3rd from top rack to act as a radiant heat deflector (per VCB). Preheated for 1 hour at 450į.

I brushed the pan with butter flavored Crisco, then pressed out the dough.

I lined the dough with about 14oz of Garibaldi WMM. Next I added about 14oz raw mild Italian sausage from the butcher counter at Caputo's.

The tomato was a 28oz can of Cento San Marzano crushed by hand and drained multiple times with a fine mesh sieve. That was mixed with a 28oz can of Escalon 6-in-1 also drained. Seasoned with salt and oregano to taste. Even after draining, I only used a fraction of this on the pizza, of course.

After topping the pizza with tomato, I pressed in about 18 slices of Boar's Head pre-sliced pepperoni, then topped with grated parmesan.

I reduced the oven to 425į and baked on the stone for 32 minutes. Then I rested the pizza in the pan for 10 minutes before flipping it out and onto a cooling rack.

The tomato was near perfect to my taste.

The crust was also great, but I think it could have stayed in the oven another 5 minutes for deeper color.

The cheese was good, but using all WMM (or at least this brand), the cheese could have been a little saltier for my taste.

The pepperoni was good too, but greased off a little more than I'd have liked. Maybe I'll try a quick zap in the microwave before putting it on the pizza next time.

Caputo's Italian sausage from the butcher is quite good, IMO. I've been buying it and using it on all manner of homemade pizzas for years.

This recipe is absolutely a keeper. Better than ordering from Malnati's for sure. And I have a few notes for how I can improve my next attempt. Thank you again for sharing. It's greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Chris
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: XFinn on January 19, 2020, 08:12:15 AM
Snowy day in Western NY so I thought I'd try my 1st attempt at Chicago DD. I've read this entire thread umpteen times, watched the videos a dozen more times, and decided to give it a whirl! I just put 2 "9 inch" doughballs in the lighted oven to start their "room temp" 5 hour rises. I used Nate's formulas (one his latest basic recipe and one his older recipe using rice flour but both with 5.4% semolina). Thanks to Nate and the many others who chimed in with tips, techniques, and helpful comments! I know this is an old thread without much chatter of late but it's never too late to jump in! I'll post my thoughts and (hopefully) results as this newb's 1st attempt at DD progresses! Best wishes to all who have inspired my desire to join the fray! Stay warm good eats!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on January 19, 2020, 12:01:43 PM
Look forward to seeing your DD XFinn !

Good luck.  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: XFinn on January 19, 2020, 02:43:15 PM
Look forward to seeing your DD XFinn !

Good luck.  :chef:

Thanks Bob! Your comments have been both immensely helpful and entertaining! Dough is still rising and looking pretty good. By the end of the day, I'll try to have a few pics as well as a recap of my DD day!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: BLG on February 04, 2020, 12:02:05 PM
Hi all,

After poring over dozens, possibly hundreds, of these posts, I decided to dive in and make my own. MANY Thanks to Pythonic and everyone who hacked out this path through the jungle for newbies like me.  Anyway, I made a 9" DD traditional -- made everything but the cheese!  Here are the photos I remembered to take.

Crust: Pythonic's 9" crust recipe at the top of this thread
Sausage: Pythonic's no-fennel recipe, w/added red pepper flake
Sauce: Muir Glen crushed fire roasted tomatoes + oregano & salt
Cheese: Whole milk mozz, sliced, & fresh-grated romano

I'm extremely pleased with this first effort.  Next time, I'll add more cheese (used 8 oz, probably add some sliced provolone too), more sausage (used 8 oz), and drain my tomatoes even more.  But with National Pizza Day coming up this Sunday, I'm happy I'll have a killer DD recipe to make and share w/friends! 
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on February 04, 2020, 03:02:50 PM
Nailed it!!!
 
Great pix!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pythonic on February 06, 2020, 02:50:49 PM
Everyoneís pies look great.  Keep up the good work and keep experimenting.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on February 16, 2020, 10:48:15 PM
Just made my first ever deep dish and used this recipe. It was awesome. Thanks!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 17, 2020, 09:43:19 AM
Just made my first ever deep dish and used this recipe. It was awesome. Thanks!
nicely done.... That's a great looking double D!!   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on February 17, 2020, 10:00:54 AM
nicely done.... That's a great looking double D!!   :chef:

Thanks Bob!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CDNpielover on February 23, 2020, 02:10:37 PM
I've made a few 12" Malnati's-style pies recently.  This is after not having made any deep dish since about 2010 or 2011.  The pies have been turning out pretty well.  This one has about 1 lb of Garvey's sausage, sauteed shrooms, black olives, and green pepper.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on February 23, 2020, 02:58:28 PM
I've made a few 12" Malnati's-style pies recently.  This is after not having made any deep dish since about 2010 or 2011.  The pies have been turning out pretty well.  This one has about 1 lb of Garvey's sausage, sauteed shrooms, black olives, and green pepper.

   Wow....jus wow!!   :o

Great pizza making CDN.... You've got this down.   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: briansemerick on February 24, 2020, 11:37:20 AM
Will give this a shot.  I love Lou's and order it often.  My only issue with them is the visual - a slice looks really sad, since they don't keep a solid shape.  I wish they didn't just deflate and spread out after being served.

What's the best current recipe for a 14" deep pan?  Just got a few 14 x 2" tin plated steel pans that I seasoned (like the pro's ;) )
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: briansemerick on February 24, 2020, 11:59:23 AM
Try fresh yeast for beer flavor.  Huge difference.

What do you mean by "fresh yeast"?  Because I have sourdough starter I use for my bread - is that it?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on February 24, 2020, 12:33:39 PM
Will give this a shot.  I love Lou's and order it often.  My only issue with them is the visual - a slice looks really sad, since they don't keep a solid shape.  I wish they didn't just deflate and spread out after being served.

What's the best current recipe for a 14" deep pan?  Just got a few 14 x 2" tin plated steel pans that I seasoned (like the pro's ;) )

For lack of extensive experimentation, I've been happy with the formula below.  For 14" DD with the following variables, the calculator is giving me a total dough ball weight of 733.16 grams

0.12 Thickness Factor
14" Diameter
Dough 1.4" up the sides of the pan
46% hydration
0% bowl residue compensation

100%          flour blend*     (434.07 grams)
   *95%       AP flour           (412.37 grams)
   *5%         semolina         (21.70 grams)
46%           water              (199.67 grams)
14%           corn oil            (60.77 grams)
7%             vegetable oil    (30.39 grams)
0.61%        IDY                 (2.65 grams)
0.75%        salt                 (3.27 grams)
0.54%        sugar              (2.34 grams)             
168.90%     Total               (733.16 grams)




Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on February 24, 2020, 01:03:04 PM
I'd also guesstimate approximately 19-20oz each of cheese and sausage for a 14" DD.  At least that's what I'd try as a starting point if I had a 14" pan.  I make 9" pies with about 8oz each of cheese and sausage, and I make 12" pies with about 14oz of each.  Scaling those up for a 14" pie, it's about 19oz.

YMMV depending on the variety and quantity of toppings you prefer.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: briansemerick on February 24, 2020, 01:18:49 PM
For lack of extensive experimentation, I've been happy with the formula below.  For 14" DD with the following variables, the calculator is giving me a total dough ball weight of 733.16 grams

0.12 Thickness Factor
14" Diameter
Dough 1.4" up the sides of the pan
46% hydration
0% bowl residue compensation

100%          flour blend*     (434.07 grams)
   *95%       AP flour           (412.37 grams)
   *5%         semolina         (21.70 grams)
46%           water              (199.67 grams)
14%           corn oil            (60.77 grams)
7%             vegetable oil    (30.39 grams)
0.61%        IDY                 (2.65 grams)
0.75%        salt                 (3.27 grams)
0.54%        sugar              (2.34 grams)             
168.90%     Total               (733.16 grams)

Thanks!

For the cheese it's slices, right?  Like Peaquod's.  Otherwise I figure the crust would get soggy like it has before when I've tried.

I always modified my tomatoes by processing them a bit, since I hate chunks.  But I do drain that some before use, so it's more like a paste.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on February 24, 2020, 01:34:14 PM
Thanks!

For the cheese it's slices, right?  Like Peaquod's.  Otherwise I figure the crust would get soggy like it has before when I've tried.

I always modified my tomatoes by processing them a bit, since I hate chunks.  But I do drain that some before use, so it's more like a paste.

Correct, most people advise using cheese slices, and that's what I do as well.  All mozzarella, or a mixture of mozzarella and provolone if you like.  Either way is very tasty, but you get a little more flavor by adding in the provolone. 

I like to crush canned tomatoes by hand and then drain them thoroughly after crushing.  If you're going to process them more than that, you might want to crush, then drain, then blend further.  Season after you're finished draining.

With a little practice, you'll be thrilled how much better your homemade pizza will be than a Lou's takeout.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on February 24, 2020, 01:43:14 PM
What do you mean by "fresh yeast"?  Because I have sourdough starter I use for my bread - is that it?

No, not a starter.  Fresh yeast, or cake yeast, is a non-dehydrated, soft solid form of baker's yeast that's typically found in the refrigerated section of grocery stores, probably near the butter.  It's more perishable than active dry yeast or instant yeast, and not every store will carry it.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: briansemerick on February 24, 2020, 02:20:20 PM
No, not a starter.  Fresh yeast, or cake yeast, is a non-dehydrated, soft solid form of baker's yeast that's typically found in the refrigerated section of grocery stores, probably near the butter.  It's more perishable than active dry yeast or instant yeast, and not every store will carry it.
Correct, most people advise using cheese slices, and that's what I do as well.  All mozzarella, or a mixture of mozzarella and provolone if you like.  Either way is very tasty, but you get a little more flavor by adding in the provolone. 

I like to crush canned tomatoes by hand and then drain them thoroughly after crushing.  If you're going to process them more than that, you might want to crush, then drain, then blend further.  Season after you're finished draining.

With a little practice, you'll be thrilled how much better your homemade pizza will be than a Lou's takeout.

Thanks and thanks!

anyone know what Lou's does for the buttercrust?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: CMC on February 24, 2020, 02:46:31 PM
Thanks and thanks!

anyone know what Lou's does for the buttercrust?

IIRC, the dough is brushed with melted butter after being pressed into the pan, before applying the cheese.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: bgramer on May 24, 2020, 07:17:38 PM
https://www.instagram.com/bgramer/

I baked a Lou's clone using the recipes and processes discussed here. Thanks to everyone posting in this thread for helping surface up all the small details through the questioning.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pizza Journey on July 05, 2020, 06:03:58 PM
I made this tonight because I had a lot of toppings/cheese I had to use before they went bad. First time ever making Chicago deep dish, it was truly delicious! Flaky crust! Great recipe.

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 05, 2020, 09:08:50 PM
I made this tonight because I had a lot of toppings/cheese I had to use before they went bad. First time ever making Chicago deep dish, it was truly delicious! Flaky crust! Great recipe.
   That looks great PJ.... Especially for a first go round. Excellent!  :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on July 24, 2020, 11:44:39 PM
Up to 19 oz of mozzarella...over twice the original recipe in this thread based on feedback from my friend from Chicago. It was delicious. This had onions, garlic, peppers, and beyond meat sausage. Shouldíve done a bit less sauce but it was delicious.

Still loving this dough recipe, thanks again!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: texmex on July 25, 2020, 09:40:35 AM
100,000+ views and this isn't a sticky? Got me wondering...what's a LOU, and do I need to make one?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on July 25, 2020, 11:50:48 AM
100,000+ views and this isn't a sticky? Got me wondering...what's a LOU, and do I need to make one?
https://www.loumalnatis.com/

I havenít had a lot of deep dish in my life but Louís is the best Iíve had because their crust is so so good.

You probably do need to make one. I like eating pizzas before I try making them, but apparently you can order frozen pizzas from Louís and theyíll ship them and I hear that actually turns out quite well.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pete-zza on July 25, 2020, 12:24:12 PM
100,000+ views and this isn't a sticky? Got me wondering...what's a LOU, and do I need to make one?
Reesa,

As I was catching up with this thread about a minute ago, and after seeing Nick's pizza and the number of page views, and before seeing your post, I said to myself that I was going to make the thread a sticky.  After signing off on this post, I will make the thread a sticky.

Peter
Title: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on July 25, 2020, 12:43:36 PM
Reesa,

As I was catching up with this thread about a minute ago, and after seeing Nick's pizza and the number of page views, and before seeing your post, I said to myself that I was going to make the thread a sticky.  After signing off on this post, I will make the thread a sticky.

Peter
Congrats, pythonic!

And thanks, Peter!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: texmex on July 25, 2020, 12:47:55 PM
This deep style is something I have never tried, is it like a Grimaldi pie? Never been there, but I think they make deep dish.
It looks good.  :drool:
I think I will try it next time. Pizza making has slowed to a crawl here...so I guess a little reading is in order to try and get the gist of it all before I attempt it in a week or so.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 25, 2020, 12:50:28 PM
Congrats, pythonic!

And thanks, Peter!
                              ^^^     Nate is an excellent pizza maker!   :chef:
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on July 25, 2020, 03:46:32 PM
This deep style is something I have never tried, is it like a Grimaldi pie? Never been there, but I think they make deep dish.
It looks good.  :drool:
I think I will try it next time. Pizza making has slowed to a crawl here...so I guess a little reading is in order to try and get the gist of it all before I attempt it in a week or so.
No, Grimaldiís isnít deep dish. You could be thinking of Giordanoís maybe?

Sounds good, Iím sure youíll enjoy it!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Nuke83 on September 05, 2020, 12:51:11 PM
OK, Looking for a sanity check here on converting from 9" to 12".  PLEASE don't refer me to the conversion tool.  Between TF, radius, distance up the sides, etc., etc., I think I stand a better chance of finding a cure for COVID before I could run the converter (which should tell you that I won't be curing COVID).

Anyway, what I'm really asking for is just some level of validation that what seems wrong to me is actually correct.

I've had great success getting to a blend of dry ingredients and oils for the 9" pan that I'm very pleased with.  At a high level, my AP/Rice/Semolina blend totals 185 grams.  My hydration (water/corn oil/EVOO) totals 128 grams, so right around that 69% hydration level.  The remaining items (cream or tartar, IDY, salt, sugar) are in the fractional tsp levels.

In reviewing Pete's, pythonics, et al, posts (going back to around reply #107), and more recent posts, I'm seeing that 12" pies vary between 300-315 grams of flour blend with 205-211 grams of hydration.  Still around that 68-69% hydration level.

What throws me is that the dough ball total weight is going from around 300 grams for 9" to just over 500 grams for 12".  I get that we're using geometry, which was my least favorite of math subjects, but if I consider that 9" to 12" is effectively a 33% increase in total, and 33% of 300 is about 100, my head is trying to reason the difference of what I would expect to be about a 400 gram dough ball actually being in the 510-515 gram range.

Please just confirm that my simplistic expectations are wrong, and that if I build that 500ish gram dough ball for my 12" pie, I'll see similar crust results as my 300ish dough ball in my 9" pan.

 ???
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on September 05, 2020, 01:27:29 PM
You need to increase the total surface area of the dough, so you need to calculate your percent increase in terms of surface area.

Area of a circle is pi X radius X radius.

So for a 9 inch pan: 3.14 X 4.5 X 4.5 = 63.6

For a 12 inch pan: 3.14 X 6 X 6 = 113

300 grams X 113 / 63.6 = 533 grams. There you go!

To be even more accurate for a deep dish pizza, increase the radius in the above calculations by the height of your pan since you need dough to go up the sides.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on September 05, 2020, 01:30:41 PM
A more intuitive way to think about the problem with your initial logic: you need to increase the size of the dough in all directions, not just along a single diameter
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Nuke83 on September 05, 2020, 03:14:41 PM
You need to increase the total surface area of the dough, so you need to calculate your percent increase in terms of surface area.

Area of a circle is pi X radius X radius.

So for a 9 inch pan: 3.14 X 4.5 X 4.5 = 63.6

For a 12 inch pan: 3.14 X 6 X 6 = 113

300 grams X 113 / 63.6 = 533 grams. There you go!

To be even more accurate for a deep dish pizza, increase the radius in the above calculations by the height of your pan since you need dough to go up the sides.

Perfect, thank you!  This is what I needed to see to validate what I believe to be true, but simply didn't make logical sense to me.  I much more a Calculus/Trig guy.  Absolutely despised geometry.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Nuke83 on September 05, 2020, 03:18:08 PM
A more intuitive way to think about the problem with your initial logic: you need to increase the size of the dough in all directions, not just along a single diameter

Yep, I understand the concept and realize the sides increase dough need at an increasing rate.  I also get that it's not linear, even discounting the sides, and that a "33%" increase in pan measurement wouldn't extrapolate out to an equal 33% in volume of dough due to the increasing area of a circle, but the increase from 300ish to 500ish seemed extreme, so I just needed some validation that I could wrap my brain around.

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on September 07, 2020, 12:13:21 PM
To help wrap your head around this, a great example is that a 14" pizza is twice the size of a 10" pizza.

It's not 40% bigger but 100% bigger.  That childhood doozy, "area equals pi times r-squared" is coming back to bite ya!  When you square the radius, the numbers are literally exponential.

The radius of a 10" pizza is 5".  Area = Pi x 5" x 5" = 25pi
The radius of a 14" pizza is 7".  Area = Pi x 5" x 5" = 49pi
(Didn't bother to solve for pi since it cancels out)

Heck--forget circles and pretend you're working with square pizzas, if that helps paint a mental picture.  A 14x14 square is roughly twice the size of a 10x10 square.  No greek letters or r-squares to contend with.
 




Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vwbugster1 on October 11, 2020, 08:37:49 PM
I used Pythonic's Malnati recipe. Turned out great! Almost had a beer flavor to it. Flaky biscuit like. 2.5 hours in low heat oven to rise. Then let it sit on counter for 3 hours. I had to have my cup and char pepps on top. My fav.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: damp1house on October 24, 2020, 01:59:11 PM
Looks great!

Is the beer flavor due to the fermentation? 


I used Pythonic's Malnati recipe. Turned out great! Almost had a beer flavor to it. Flaky biscuit like. 2.5 hours in low heat oven to rise. Then let it sit on counter for 3 hours. I had to have my cup and char pepps on top. My fav.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vwbugster1 on October 24, 2020, 02:57:18 PM
Thank you!!!  I think it was just leaving out on the counter and letting it sit. I also like to add pizza dough flavoring from King Arthur Flour. Its amazing.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: damp1house on October 26, 2020, 10:47:43 PM
Never heard of the flavoring.  I will check it out, thanks!!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stryda on November 19, 2020, 01:43:03 PM
Forgive my lack of trust please...
I've never used raw meat on a pizza  :-D, fear of not cooking it enough that it's safe to eat, or cremating it to the point it isn't enjoyable.
With this pizza, and a layer of raw sausage in between cheese and sauce, how are you checking the meat is cooked?   ???
I have a IR gun, but throw in the emissivity setting and I have no idea how accurate it is. I also have a meat thermometer, which only seems to work on big chunks of meat  :-D
Or am I overthinking, and this pizza is worth possible food poisoning?  ;D
Any guidance, please?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vwbugster1 on November 19, 2020, 05:13:45 PM
The raw sausage i put on top of the cheese layer is always cooked for me.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on November 19, 2020, 10:47:17 PM
Youíre baking a 10,000-lb casserole in an iron smelting oven for 40 minutes. 

The tiny little chunks of meat inside will be plenty done.

Ditch the IR gun and get an instant read thermometer.  Pork is done at 138 deg F.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stryda on November 20, 2020, 07:14:35 AM
Thanks, instant read thermometer ordered!
Now onto a pan....
Struggling to find a decent pan in the UK, any thoughts on either of these?
https://smile.amazon.co.uk/PME-Anodised-Aluminium-Round-2-Inch/dp/B009WP3OTI/ref=sr_1_16?dchild=1&keywords=cake+pan&qid=1605873855&sr=8-16
or
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Xavax-Stainless-Steel-Round-Roasting/dp/B009DFZOMW/ref=sr_1_31?dchild=1&keywords=deep%2Bdish%2Bpizza%2Bpan&qid=1605873012&sr=8-31&th=1
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: emalesean on November 24, 2020, 09:12:22 AM
Is it necessary to cook the pizza sauce in sauce pan with extra ingredients? I see lots of information on this site about making the dough and assembly but not much discussion on how to prepare the sauce. I live in New York whats a good can to start with thatís easy to get by me?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on November 24, 2020, 10:27:46 AM
Is it necessary to cook the pizza sauce in sauce pan with extra ingredients? I see lots of information on this site about making the dough and assembly but not much discussion on how to prepare the sauce. I live in New York whats a good can to start with thatís easy to get by me?

For deep dish?  Don't cook the sauce.  It will bake plenty while on top of your casserole pizza for 30 mins or so in the oven.  Just get a decent can of crushed tomatoes from the grocery store and pour it into a mesh strainer to drain out some of the liquid.  Add salt to taste, if needed, and a little basil.  You want it to be simple and tomatoey.  Or you can get a can of whole tomatoes and crush them up with your hands and put the chunks on top.

Rookie mistake to avoid: don't put too much sauce on the pizza.  Look at pictures online as a guide. 

HTH!  Cheers!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stryda on November 25, 2020, 10:07:54 AM
Ok, I had a go at this the other night. Don't think I got it right, the base texture was more like short crust pastry. As I think you can see from the pictures. I'm in the UK, so have never tried the real thing. Any suggestions on if it's right or way off?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vwbugster1 on November 25, 2020, 10:16:24 AM
I think it looks great. Most people like it to be biscuit and flaky like. I do anyway. So You are not off like you think you are. I would spread the sausage all over the layer, that way there is sausage in every bite. Great execution! Bravo!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on November 25, 2020, 10:38:38 AM
Ok, I had a go at this the other night. Don't think I got it right, the base texture was more like short crust pastry. As I think you can see from the pictures. I'm in the UK, so have never tried the real thing. Any suggestions on if it's right or way off?

You nailed it!  It is absolutely supposed to be a short crust and nothing like "regular" pizza.  The high fat content and lack of kneading is what gives it that quality.  There is no gluten development at all.

Minor feedback would be: (A) try using thinner slices of mozz cheese and overlap them a bit so that no crust is showing, and (B) maybe use a little less tomato.

If it's helpful to see what it looks like, check out this video that shows how they assemble pizzas at Lou Malnati's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x9ah3Mt3aY&ab_channel=FoodInsider
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stryda on November 25, 2020, 11:13:06 AM
Awesome thank you guys. Finally got something right ;D. I do need to develop my cheese slicing skills  :-D unfortunately, I defrost my cheese and its always a little...sloppy. I've actually already watched that video Garvey, but for some reason, I was expecting to see dough layers in the crust, as you would with puff pastry. Although to be honest I don't know where I got that idea from, maybe subconsciously its because I'm working with a shortening, which I've never used with pizza before. Either way will have to try making a few more of these, maybe a minute or two less bake time.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on November 25, 2020, 11:30:32 AM
Maybe you can get your cheesemonger to slice it for you.  In the States, we can get it pre-sliced in the grocery store.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Stryda on November 25, 2020, 04:12:32 PM
We don't do many dry/skimmed or part skimmed mozzarella's in the UK, just the wet stuff mostly. Might have to have a look online, see if a restaurant supplier would part with some.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on November 27, 2020, 10:35:52 AM
Youíre baking a 10,000-lb casserole in an iron smelting oven for 40 minutes. 

The tiny little chunks of meat inside will be plenty done.

Ditch the IR gun and get an instant read thermometer.  Pork is done at 138 deg F.

Yep.
Instant read thermometers are definitely a must-have item in my kitchen.
While 138F is probably OK for pork on it's own, in this case it's part of a combination of ingredients in a pizza,
so the overall internal temp of the pizza (not the crust) should be at least 165 degrees F, according to the USDA. 
They also recommend cooking pork on it's own to at least 145 degrees, but I'm guessing these guidelines are very conservative because they'd rather be safe than sorry.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: emalesean on November 29, 2020, 01:23:12 PM
When adding the water does the water need to be 110 degrees?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vcb on November 29, 2020, 03:45:00 PM
When adding the water does the water need to be 110 degrees?


It depends on what kind of yeast you're using, but 110 should be good.

Here's an article from SeriousEats talking about optimal yeast/water temps for different conditions:
https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/01/protips-correct-water-temperature-for-proofing-yeast.html (https://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/01/protips-correct-water-temperature-for-proofing-yeast.html)
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Dathzo on December 01, 2020, 01:17:56 AM
Good day fine people,

I just registered to this forum in search of a Lou Malnatiís recipe pizza. I stumbled upon this fantastic post, where the pies look fantastic.
A couple of beginnerís questions:

1. I donít have a stone, do oven temperatures and times remain the same as you advise? Is a stone a must?
2. Do tomatoes go raw on the pie after seasoning or there is the need to cook them?

Many thanks!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on December 01, 2020, 09:21:53 AM
Good day fine people,

I just registered to this forum in search of a Lou Malnati’s recipe pizza. I stumbled upon this fantastic post, where the pies look fantastic.
A couple of beginner’s questions:

1. I don’t have a stone, do oven temperatures and times remain the same as you advise? Is a stone a must?
2. Do tomatoes go raw on the pie after seasoning or there is the need to cook them?

Many thanks!

Welcome!

1. You can make this without a stone.  It will be fine.  Every oven is different, so use the time and temperature as *guidelines* and adjust as needed.
2. Use canned tomatoes.  Do not cook them.  They will bake on top of the pizza.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Dathzo on December 01, 2020, 01:51:34 PM
Welcome!

1. You can make this without a stone.  It will be fine.  Every oven is different, so use the time and temperature as *guidelines* and adjust as needed.
2. Use canned tomatoes.  Do not cook them.  They will bake on top of the pizza.

Good luck!

Thanks a lot Garvey.
Cheers!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Dathzo on December 04, 2020, 02:11:06 PM
Good first attempt. Flavorwise was great, but the texture was somehow lacking. It did not crisp enough. Any recommendations are welcome. I used a Dutch Oven to cook it

AH basic AP - 95% - 175g
Corn flour polenta - 5% - 10g
Water - 46% - 85g
Corn Oil - 19% - 35g
Olive Oil- 4% - 7g
Salt - 3g
Sugar - 3g
ADY - 1.5g

Drain tomatoes San Marzano and add salt, sugar and oregano to taste
Ferment for 5h (start at 30C and down to 23C)
Extend the dough on a Dutch oven and leave to rest for further 15min
Top with butter, sliced provolone (175g) and 175g mozzarella (was a bit starchy)
Add 350g tomato sauce
Bake for 18min uncovered and 10min covered at 235C
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on December 04, 2020, 04:46:55 PM
Good first attempt. Flavorwise was great, but the texture was somehow lacking. It did not crisp enough. Any recommendations are welcome.

Is cheese on top of the pizza?  I mean, is that the top layer--cheese?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Dathzo on December 05, 2020, 03:48:52 AM
I sprinkled a healthy amount of Parmesan cheese on top, but the bulk of the cheese is on top of the dough and then the tomato sauce
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on December 05, 2020, 08:18:37 AM
I sprinkled a healthy amount of Parmesan cheese on top, but the bulk of the cheese is on top of the dough and then the tomato sauce

Try it without the Parmesan layer.  It looks like you created a cheese tarp that may have held in some of the moisture and so forth that shouldíve otherwise baked off and affected the texture in the way that you had previously described as not to your liking.  From your recipe and description, that gigantic blanket of cheese on top of the pizza is the only thing out of the ordinary that I could possibly point to for troubleshooting. Iím not saying that it is definitely the culprit, but I really have no other ideas about what may have caused it to not turn out the way you wanted it to.  But I am totally guessing at this point.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Dathzo on December 06, 2020, 01:22:23 PM
I did it again and change a couple of items:

1. Used semola instead of corn flour
2. I used my cast iron Dutch oven as pizza stone
3. The last 10min I covered it loosely with tin foil, with some openings to let the moisture escape
4. Only sliced provolone
5. Reduced the Parmesan cheese on top

Worked very well and the dough was definitely crispier. The last slice was soggy after leaving it on plate, which I suppose itís normal...
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Cragganmore17 on January 24, 2021, 11:00:24 AM
First time trying OPs recipe and it was a complete success. I am actually shocked at how easy it is and how well it turned out on first attempt. Other than scale up for a 14Ē pie and make some guesstimations on percentages of sugar (2%), salt (1%), and yeast (0.75%) I didnít change a thing.

Thanks, pythonic!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: McMuffins on June 24, 2021, 08:00:05 PM
Hi all,

First off, thanks to everyone on this thread. It was an amazing read.

I thought I'd give this a shot while I impatiently await my Ooni 16 to ship.

I'd like to give this a go, and make two 10" pies, coming up 1.25" on the pans.

I've run this through this site: https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator and here's what I came up with. I'd sure be thankful if someone could give this a quick once-over before I dive in

   Grams   Kilograms   Milliliters   Ounces   Pounds   Teaspoons   Tablespoons   Cups
Flour(100%)   459.865   0.46       16.221   1.014           
Water(46%)   211.538   0.212       7.462   0.466           
Instant Dry Yeast (0.611%)   2.81   0.003       0.099   0.006   0.933   0.311   0.019
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (0.754%)   3.468   0.003   3.063   0.122   0.008   0.621   0.207   0.013
Sugar (0.539%)   2.477   0.002   3.063   0.087   0.005   0.621   0.207   0.013
Semolina (5.4%)   24.833   0.025   35.181   0.876   0.055   7.138   2.379   0.149
Corn Oil (14%)   64.381   0.064   70.519   2.271   0.142   14.307   4.769   0.298
Butter/Margarine (7%)   32.191   0.032   33.551   1.135   0.071   6.807   2.269   0.142
Total (174.304%, TF=0.12)   801.563   0.802       28.274   1.767           
Single Ball (2 balls total)   400.782   0.401       14.137   0.884           

Thanks in advance.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on June 24, 2021, 09:35:50 PM
Hi all,

First off, thanks to everyone on this thread. It was an amazing read.

I thought I'd give this a shot while I impatiently await my Ooni 16 to ship.

I'd like to give this a go, and make two 10" pies, coming up 1.25" on the pans.

I've run this through this site: https://pizza-dough-calculator.herokuapp.com/calculator and here's what I came up with. I'd sure be thankful if someone could give this a quick once-over before I dive in

GramsKilogramsMillilitersOuncesPoundsTeaspoonsTablespoonsCups
Flour(100%)459.8650.46 16.2211.014   
Water(46%)211.5380.212 7.4620.466   
Instant Dry Yeast (0.611%)2.810.003 0.0990.0060.9330.3110.019
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (0.754%)3.4680.0033.0630.1220.0080.6210.2070.013
Sugar (0.539%)2.4770.0023.0630.0870.0050.6210.2070.013
Semolina (5.4%)24.8330.02535.1810.8760.0557.1382.3790.149
Corn Oil (14%)64.3810.06470.5192.2710.14214.3074.7690.298
Butter/Margarine (7%)32.1910.03233.5511.1350.0716.8072.2690.142
Total (174.304%, TF=0.12)801.5630.802 28.2741.767   
Single Ball (2 balls total)400.7820.401 14.1370.884   

Thanks in advance.
I didnít check all your math, but Iím pretty sure that will give you a tasty pizza!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: McMuffins on June 24, 2021, 10:50:52 PM
My math is off, I think.

It should be semolina (5.4%) + AP flour (94.6%) = 100% and then the rest factored against that, right?



Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on June 24, 2021, 11:01:23 PM
My math is off, I think.

It should be semolina (5.4%) + AP flour (94.6%) = 100% and then the rest factored against that, right?
Mm yeah, thatís correct, good catch. Probably wonít be a huge difference though.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: McMuffins on June 24, 2021, 11:05:00 PM
Mm yeah, thatís correct, good catch. Probably wonít be a huge difference though.

Thanks for confirming! I have a tendency to overthink things like this, and therefore am stressing about minute details right now  :-\

Will re-run the numbers and post up my pizzas once I make them, likely this weekend.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: nickyr on June 24, 2021, 11:54:48 PM
Thanks for confirming! I have a tendency to overthink things like this, and therefore am stressing about minute details right now  :-\

Will re-run the numbers and post up my pizzas once I make them, likely this weekend.
Donít worry, it will be delicious! Youíd basically have to forget to put it in the oven for it to taste bad.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: drmatt357 on July 02, 2021, 12:46:11 PM
Great post Garvey!!!  I wasn't layering slices on the bottom but will now.  I recently ordered a box of the Malnati pies and were really good.  I was surprised.



Minor feedback would be: (A) try using thinner slices of mozz cheese and overlap them a bit so that no crust is showing, and (B) maybe use a little less tomato.

If it's helpful to see what it looks like, check out this video that shows how they assemble pizzas at Lou Malnati's: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5x9ah3Mt3aY&ab_channel=FoodInsider
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on July 02, 2021, 01:40:28 PM
I envision the cheese as a vapor barrier, so to speak.  That's how it makes sense in my head, anyway.  :-D
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pizza Journey on August 20, 2021, 02:22:23 PM
This is such a good recipe, I made it last night and it was great. I used less sauce than I usually do and I think that really helped the overall pie.

I had an issue with it sticking to the bottom of the pan, though, and I made a mess of things getting it out. I am thinking it's because I didn't use a stone, and put the pan directly on the oven rack. I'll try it with the stone next time, maybe that will cook the bottom better and reduce the sticking. Hopefully.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: vwbugster1 on August 21, 2021, 11:29:54 AM
What kind of pan did you use? I use a bit of cake release by wilton when i make deep dish pizza.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Garvey on August 21, 2021, 12:20:31 PM
This is such a good recipe, I made it last night and it was great. I used less sauce than I usually do and I think that really helped the overall pie.

I had an issue with it sticking to the bottom of the pan, though, and I made a mess of things getting it out. I am thinking it's because I didn't use a stone, and put the pan directly on the oven rack. I'll try it with the stone next time, maybe that will cook the bottom better and reduce the sticking. Hopefully.

Given the high oil content of the dough, it really shouldn't stick in any pan, lubed or not, stone or not.

I'll posit a different theory and you tell me if it's possible: there was leakage or seepage somewhere of liquid from the pie, either through a tiny hole or over the side somewhere and back down into the pan and underneath the crust, causing the liquid to carmelize and fuse the crust to the pan.

If you think this might be the culprit, the remedies are easy.  Pinch that rim high and tight, as Chicago Bob always says, and dial back the tomato product a little.  Don't worry: everyone over-tomatos their DD.  It's a common thing.  I've really embraced using fewer and bigger chunks, squeezed out beforehand, to avoid this.  And if you find the rim is sinking down after you've pressed it out, you can do what I do and press the cheese slices up along the rim to give it a skeleton to hold its shape.

HTH.  Cheers!
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: Pizza Journey on August 22, 2021, 06:22:41 PM

Given the high oil content of the dough, it really shouldn't stick in any pan, lubed or not, stone or not.

I'll posit a different theory and you tell me if it's possible: there was leakage or seepage somewhere of liquid from the pie, either through a tiny hole or over the side somewhere and back down into the pan and underneath the crust, causing the liquid to carmelize and fuse the crust to the pan.

If you think this might be the culprit, the remedies are easy.  Pinch that rim high and tight, as Chicago Bob always says, and dial back the tomato product a little.  Don't worry: everyone over-tomatos their DD.  It's a common thing.  I've really embraced using fewer and bigger chunks, squeezed out beforehand, to avoid this.  And if you find the rim is sinking down after you've pressed it out, you can do what I do and press the cheese slices up along the rim to give it a skeleton to hold its shape.

HTH.  Cheers!
Thanks! After thinking about it, I am pretty sure there must have been a hole (or a too-thin spot) at the bottom while I was stretching it in the pan, causing the seepage.
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: macnmotion on September 07, 2021, 08:06:40 AM
I tried making the recipe from the first post for my first time. It was pretty good. I should have left it in the oven 5-7 more minutes to crisp up the crust just a little bit. I haven't eaten at Lou's but my friend is from Chicago, and he said we nailed the flavor. We had sausage and pepperoni inside along with mozzerella and provolone, and then a layer of pepperoni on top, my friend wanted some crispy pepperoni. Room for improvement. The calculator was great, my dough ball was within 1g of the target weight, and it seemed to fill the pan, incluidng 1-1/4 inches up the side, perfectly.

I don't have a stone, so I preheated an upside down cast iron pan to 425, then upped the oven to 450 when I put the pizza on top of that cast iron pan.

Other than baking it a bit longer, can anyone spot anything that might improve the pizza? Thanks.

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: pizzapieguy on October 07, 2021, 07:35:51 AM
Hello everyone, I've been making Detroit style pizzas at home using Hans B recipe to great success and wanted to venture into Chicago deep dish style and this recipe looks excellent! I have some lloydpans 7" 2.25" depth pans, what formulation should i use for that? Also, is the first post from Pyro the current recipe everyone is following? I saw as i was reading through all the pages that semolina was included, then omitted. Wasn't sure if that was due to experimentation or an outright change. I have IDY and ADY, is fresh yeast for this worth acquiring?
Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: frankenfab on October 11, 2021, 11:14:59 AM
I gave this a go yesterday, using the recipe at the beginning of the thread.

I didn't have corn oil, and didn't want to buy a whole bottle, so I used peanut oil as a substitute.

Found some "Old Folks" Italian Sausage in the meat section, 2 - 1b. chubs for <$7.

Made dough and let it rise for 5 hours, sealed at room temp. had a little trouble manipulating the dough, so this pie was EXTRA rustic.

I didn't want to buy 4 sticks of butter flavored Crisco, so I bought 1 stick of plain Crisco, and used equal parts Crisco and room temp butter whipped together.

Dough, sliced LMM, sausage pinches, RAO's marinara, pepperoni, thinly sliced fresh Portabellas, grated hard parm.

Oh, and mozzarella pearls on top as well.

I was a bit worried about using my spring form pan, but it actually came out a little under done after 28 minutes at 450 on a stone. Probably because the inside of the pan is white.

I was very happy for a first attempt.

Thanks for this thread!

Title: Re: Tonight's Lou. Butter flavored crisco in the pan is night and day vs oil
Post by: mamerthemario on November 03, 2021, 01:00:10 PM
Hereís my contribution: