A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: Tough Dough  (Read 2960 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline scottyo70

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: illinois
  • I Love Pizza!
Tough Dough
« on: August 13, 2015, 05:55:45 PM »
Hi, I am a new member looking for some help with my dough. I would say I am a novice pizza maker. I have been making pizza as a hobby for years, and would like to incorporate them into the small bar I own (in business for 12 years)and within a year possibly open a different location. I have everything just the way i want it as far as appearance and  flavor goes with the sauce, cheese, toppings etc. after years of experimenting. The dough is just ok, and tends to be on the tough side, compared to a mid-western style pizza, which inst real thin but not a deep dish either. i have tried may different kinds of flour from AP to commercial high protein and "pizza flour" and not had much different result. I do use bakers percent when making dough and have played around with many different formulas. It ranges between 58-60% hydration .5-1% ADY, 1.75-2% salt 2-3% sugar and 2-3% olive oil. I use a 20 qt Hobart mixer on low for about a minute and let it rest for five minutes and then mix on low again for anywhere between 6-12 min with nicer feeling dough with the 12 min mix. I have hand stretched more pizzas than i can remember but also have used a sheeter (double pass) and finish by hand. I am baking on a stone deck oven and have ranged between 550 and 700 degrees. I also cold ferment my dough for a minimum of 24 hours and up to 36 hours. the appearance of the crust is what i want but the bottom is tough with a hard chew. I understand this is the norm for New York style pizza, but here in the mid west where we cut our pizza in squares ( I cant help how or where I was raised haha) less tough crust is preferred. I am not looking to have a pizza chain type crust by any means, but something with a sturdy crust with some chew to it but not make your jaws tired chewing it that also isn't a thin and crispy cracker type. everything I read leads me to think higher hydration, but am I thinking completely backwards?

Offline Harsh2206

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 251
  • Location: Uk
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 06:16:01 PM »
Go for 62-63% hydration

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30764
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 07:06:21 PM »
scottyo70,

These videos might be a case of overkill for the modest commercial pizza operation you are considering but you may find them useful nonetheless:







To see the instructions recommended by Tom Lehmann, who recently retired from the American Institute of Baking, for professional pizza operators, see:

Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7499.msg64554;topicseen#msg64554

I agree with Harsh that you might want to increase the hydration of your dough. Can you tell us what dough ball weight and corresponding pizza size you are using, and also what flours you have available to use? Your basic dough formulation does not look to be out of order on a general basis but some tweaking may be necessary.

Peter

Offline vtsteve

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1928
  • Location: Vermont, USA
  • If my pizza is wrong, I don't want to be right!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 11:55:16 PM »
I don't think water is the answer - dough handling seems more likely. Since your gear is similar to Norma's, I'd check out her process and try to duplicate it.
In grams we trust.
My wood-fired NY thread: Pizza Thursday

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 6897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
  • In Memoriam 12/2020
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2015, 12:11:32 AM »
Normally when the finished crust is too tough it is an indication of insufficient fermentation which can result from any of the following as it pertains to your dough formula:
1) The ADY not being per-hydrated, or not pre-hydrated correctly.
2) Flour too strong.
3) Finished dough temperature too low/dough too cold after mixing.
4) Using a sheeter to sheet the dough too thin.
5) Insufficient dough weight for the diameter being made.
6) While the dough absorption looks ok for this type of crust, increasing the dough absorption may yield a lighter textured, and slightly more crispy finished crust.
If you are trying to make a Chicago style thin crust, I've personally never seen a Chicago thin crust that was crispy, in fact it is characteristically limp and much like eating pizza toppings on a piece of wet pasta. The only part of the pizza that even comes close to resembling crispy are the four corners of the party cut pizza. With that said, if you par-bake the crust and use that for the base you can have a Chicago style thin crust pizza that is reasonably crispy, even when dressed Chicago style.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Ignacio C.

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2015, 08:48:33 AM »
Normally when the finished crust is too tough it is an indication of insufficient fermentation which can result from any of the following as it pertains to your dough formula:
1) The ADY not being per-hydrated, or not pre-hydrated correctly.
2) Flour too strong.
3) Finished dough temperature too low/dough too cold after mixing.
4) Using a sheeter to sheet the dough too thin.
5) Insufficient dough weight for the diameter being made.
6) While the dough absorption looks ok for this type of crust, increasing the dough absorption may yield a lighter textured, and slightly more crispy finished crust.
If you are trying to make a Chicago style thin crust, I've personally never seen a Chicago thin crust that was crispy, in fact it is characteristically limp and much like eating pizza toppings on a piece of wet pasta. The only part of the pizza that even comes close to resembling crispy are the four corners of the party cut pizza. With that said, if you par-bake the crust and use that for the base you can have a Chicago style thin crust pizza that is reasonably crispy, even when dressed Chicago style.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom!

What's the correct way to pre-hydrate ADY?

Also, when using cake yeast, if it doesn't foam after stirring with water/sugar/salt is it a bad sign? When I used to use ADY it would always foam.

Thanks!

Offline scottyo70

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: illinois
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2015, 12:31:42 PM »
Im using a 16 ounce dough ball for a 14" pizza. and I portion when it comes out of the mixer and refrigerate. yesterday the temp of the dough balls before I put them in the refrigerator was 77.4 degrees f. that was taken with a infrared thermometer.   

Offline scottyo70

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: illinois
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2015, 12:33:14 PM »
I don't normally pre hydrate the yeast, will this make that much of a difference?

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30764
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2015, 02:35:25 PM »
I don't normally pre hydrate the yeast, will this make that much of a difference?
scottyo70,

It depends on whom you ask. Tom usually advocates that one use about 4-5 times the weight of the ADY in water (part of the total formula water) at around 105 degrees F for about ten minutes. The rest of the formula water ideally should be at a temperature to produce a finished dough temperature of around 80-85 degrees F. The prehydrated ADY can be added to the rest of the formula water or to other ingredients in the mixer bowl. This general method is perhaps the safest method of using ADY. However, every time I mention this method, members will report that they never prehydrate their ADY. That is, they just use it dry. In some cases, I believe that some members use more ADY than needed and that the excess makes up for some of the degradation of the performance of the ADY. Or maybe they use all warm water (e.g., 120-130 degrees F) to make the dough, and they don't worry about finished dough temperature. When I saw your value of ADY, 0.50-1% for a 24-38-hour dough, I thought that you were following the latter practice. The easier course in your case might be to switch to IDY, which can simply be added dry to the flour.

I notice that you didn't tell us what flours you have available to use. Also, when you remove the dough balls from cold storage, do you let them warm up for a while, say, 1-1 1/2 hours at room temperature before using, or do you skip that step and go directly to making the skins? Also, is there any particular style of pizza that you are trying to emulate, such as a Home Run Inn pizza, a Monical's pizza, etc.? Based on your dough ball weight (16 ounces) and pizza size (14"), I calculate that the corresponding thickness factor is 16/(3.14159 x 7 x 7 ) = 0.103938. That may be high for the type of pizza you are trying to make.

Since you are working with baker's percents, you might want to familiarize yourself with the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded-calculator.html.

Peter

Offline scottyo70

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
  • Location: illinois
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2015, 05:07:16 PM »
I normally use a high gluten flour either Pillsbury or General Mills and have also used just generic all purpose flour. I do let the dough sit at room temp for and hour or two to warm up. and I also have just mad a batch of dough with 15 oz per ball, and tried hydrating the yeast before adding the flour I will see how it aff3cts the final product on sunday. Thanks for all the advice this is a great site and your time is greatly appreciated! 

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 30764
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2015, 06:21:39 PM »
scottyo70,

Can you tell us what style of pizza you are trying to make or imitate?

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • In Memoriam
  • Posts: 6897
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
  • In Memoriam 12/2020
    • Dough Doctor
Re: Tough Dough
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2015, 12:04:42 PM »
When using ADY, it should be hydrated in approximately 5-times its weight of water at 100 to 105F. The amount of water is not as critical as the temperature of the water. Water that is too hot can kill the yeast while water that is too cold can pull glutathione out of the yeast cell as they rehydrate thus severely impairing their ability to ferment as well as producing soft, sticky or inconsistent dough texture. IDY on the other hand does not need to be rehydrated IF the dough will be mixed by machine for more than 4-minutes. If the dough is mixed for less than 4-minutes, or mixed by hand, it should be pre-hydrated. To hydrate IDY it is recommended that you use 95F water (temperature is much more important when using IDY). Water that is too cold will extract a significant amount of glutathione from the yeast with the same results as indicated above for the ADY. When using compressed yeast it can be added directly to the mixing bowl just like IDY if a machine is used to mix the dough BUT if the dough will be mixed by hand, it should be suspended in a portion of the dough water (temperature is not critical if the water temperature is between 45 and 105F) to ensure proper distribution throughout the dough mass.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

A D V E R T I S E M E N T