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Author Topic: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?  (Read 7245 times)

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Offline VivaSirena

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Hi everyone. I know that is forum is a treasure-trove of information, so before I ask a question, I really do my honest best to try and scour the previous posts and find the answer.  This time,  I'm just  not coming up with the answer, and I just don't have the energy and time to go it alone anymore.   I'm hoping that some kind soul here can help me to identify a pan I can use to make Sicilian pizzas. Please, would you consider helping if you can.

The problem is that I have a very specific list of criteria:
1)  no "non-stick coating" of any kind.  No "PSTK", no matter how much Lloyd pans claims the coating is harmless and is good to 600F. I understand it doesn't have PTFE, and that it's water based.  That's all fine and good. I still don't trust it.   I understand many here use it, swear by it, and love it. I don't give a rip. I still don't trust that I won't be ingesting little bits of it in my pizza over time.  After all, it is promised to last "for years" (i.e not forever. if not forever, it's not completely inert, and it goes somewhere over time).   Same goes for Allied's "Black Buster" coating, whatever that is.  I know even less about that coating, and trust it even less. 

1B) -side note:  Not sure how I feel about the "Blue steel" e.g. Paderno pans.  I understand the bluing process a little, and know that some chemicals are used there, and not confident that the bluing process is safe for repetitive food contact.  For gun metal, great.  I'm open to being challenged on this one.

2) Square or Rectangular and 1" depth (unless someone wants to convince me that another depth will be better for Sicilian).  Sloped sides would be nice, but straight wall is fine.   Not interested in Round pans at this time.

3) Can be seasoned so that it will provide good cooking performance over time, just like the pans in restaurants.  Now, I fully appreciate that as a home baker, this will be more challenging.  But I am willing to put in the time to oil and bake day after day,  throw out many doughs, whatever, if it means that I can get to a point where it gets seasoned, and get rocking/rolling.

4) I don't care if it's cold rolled steel or aluminum, or anodized aluminum,  as long as it gets the job done from a cooking perspective.  Anodized Aluminum sounded promising to me due to good corrosion resistance and being darker to begin with.

5) I would like to be able to try and cook in my LBE in the 600-650 range.  But I should be content to make pies in my 500F oven if need be.

Thank so much in advance !!!! I admire and respect the collective knowledge here very much.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 03:04:13 AM by VivaSirena »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #1 on: February 28, 2016, 07:49:55 AM »
VivaSirena,

It looks like you have already done a fair amount of homework, and you have also set the bar quite high. If you haven't already done so, you might check out these possibilities:

Amnow (American Metalcraft): http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies (note that the pans at http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/Square-Deep-Dish-Pans/Square-Deep-Dish-Pans#.VtLpCzH2YdU are perforated)

Northern Pizza Equipment: http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/rectangular-pans-lids.html (the pans shown are Detroit-style pans)

Chicago Metallic: http://www.cmbakeware.com/sites/default/files/pdf/012113_cm_2013_cat.pdf

Allied: http://www.alliedmetalusa.com/category/main/pizza-pans-utensils/pizza-pans/ and http://www.alliedmetalusa.com/catalog/Digital%20Catalog.html

P.A. Products: http://paprod.com/pans.html (note that the Detroit pans are no longer available at P.A. Products)

I don't know if all of the above information is current, and you will want to keep in mind that some of the sources cited do not sell direct to consumers.

Good luck with your search. Please let us know if you find what you are looking for.

Peter

Offline jsaras

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #2 on: February 28, 2016, 09:47:26 AM »
Here's the science-based information for those who make their choices based upon repeatable scientific studies.  https://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/002461.htm
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #3 on: February 28, 2016, 02:28:15 PM »
Just to add another "log to the fire", pan seasoning is not safe either. Some states do not look favorably on the use of seasoned pans as there is some indication that the carbon is carcinogenic as are some of the compounds formed during the seasoning process. This is one of the things that has lead to the widespread popularity of the anodized aluminum pans, but then there is an issue with aluminum too. I'd suggest that you look around for a square steel cake pan (popular in the '50's and 60's) and then have it sand blasted to remove all trace of any finish, then just season the OUTSIDE of the pan (non food contact area) and oil the inside of the pan when you want to use it, then thoroughly clean any residual oil out of the pan when you're finished using it. This should work reasonably well for you.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline mitchjg

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #4 on: February 28, 2016, 03:33:01 PM »
Since your criteria for a pan is pretty strict (and maybe cannot be fulfilled?), then you may want to consider using parchment paper with a kitchen department/store bought aluminum 1/2 sheet size pan.
Mitch

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Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #5 on: February 28, 2016, 04:56:38 PM »
Just to add another "log to the fire", pan seasoning is not safe either. Some states do not look favorably on the use of seasoned pans as there is some indication that the carbon is carcinogenic as are some of the compounds formed during the seasoning process. This is one of the things that has lead to the widespread popularity of the anodized aluminum pans, but then there is an issue with aluminum too. I'd suggest that you look around for a square steel cake pan (popular in the '50's and 60's) and then have it sand blasted to remove all trace of any finish, then just season the OUTSIDE of the pan (non food contact area) and oil the inside of the pan when you want to use it, then thoroughly clean any residual oil out of the pan when you're finished using it. This should work reasonably well for you.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Thanks, all.   I will mull over your comments.  You've given me some things to think about. 

In my eyes, it sounds like (uncoated) anodized aluminum is the lowest-risk material, as the anodization should minimize aluminum integration into the food product. 

Tom - you mentioned seasoning the outside of steel cake pans, but using a 1-use oil approach on the food contact surface (oil it fresh for each use, then wash out after).  I was curious why you would suggest this for the steel pan and not the anodized aluminum pan?  So if I understand, concerns about carcinogenic dangers with conventional seasoning led to the popularity of AA pans.  Did operators find that the AA was non-stick enough in an of itself? Or did it end up requiring some seasoning protocol as well?

Thanks!
Matt
« Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 04:59:49 PM by VivaSirena »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #6 on: February 28, 2016, 05:20:01 PM »
I've never even heard a concern about the safety of blue steel pans??? With your level of concern over the pan, I'm surprised you would even consider eating pizza which supposedly has one of the highest levels of acrylamide of any common food.
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Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2016, 07:45:56 PM »
I've never even heard a concern about the safety of blue steel pans??? With your level of concern over the pan, I'm surprised you would even consider eating pizza which supposedly has one of the highest levels of acrylamide of any common food.

I could respond to this comment in any number of ways, but I will choose to simply state:  I am not concerned about some potential acrylamide issue (especially since I don't go nuts with the charring).  People have been enjoying the fruits of the Maillard reaction for millenia. Whatever cancer risk is there from that, I will accept. But I  am concerned with potential contaminants from plastic-based coatings primarily designed for release attributes.

I am  a chemical engineer with years of experience, working for one of the biggest plastics producers in the world. I know the toxicology lab folks there.  I also understand the profit motive of plastics producers to pass whatever lame requirements (interest-conflicted) government agencies set to demonstrate safety for public food-usage.  I am highly skeptical when it comes to plastics, foods and high temps meeting. Guilty until innocent for me on this subject. Plastics have many many ingredients which are there simply to assist in processing, and sure they pass some government test, and they declare them safe for food usage..... and OOPS years later,  this antioxidant, or this plasticizer, or this filler, or this colorant.... well our testing didn't show it was a  problem, but OOPS it looks like  it causes cancer. 

Sorry if you don't agree, but I take many less risks regarding the intersection of plastics, food, and heat, than 99.9% of the general population.  It's a risk I  don't need to take, when there are other material  choices that are much simpler in composition, more time honored in usage, and much lower in risk  profile.  Good day sir.

Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2016, 07:49:24 PM »
I've never even heard a concern about the safety of blue steel pans??? With your level of concern over the pan, I'm surprised you would even consider eating pizza which supposedly has one of the highest levels of acrylamide of any common food.

And about the Blue Steel, I said I was open to being challenged on this one.  Honestly I don't know if there's any danger there.  I don't understand the bluing process, and what happens over time to it, to really know.  I just have never seen any work done to look into demonstrate safety with food + heat + blue steel.   Probably a moot point since I think they're hard to find now.

Offline Steve

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2016, 07:57:52 PM »
I could respond to this comment in any number of ways

Thank you for your civil, well spoken response. Now you have me thinking about my non-stick skillet.  :-\

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Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2016, 08:03:20 PM »
Thank you for your civil, well spoken response. Now you have me thinking about my non-stick skillet.  :-\

:-)  I know what you mean.  I think the skillets are less of a concern due to operating at a lower temp.  But at the temps I like to make pizza, I start getting a little worried.  I  try not to go nuts worrying about all of it, but pick my battles.  The high temp pizza cooking with plastic was a battle I picked. :-)

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #11 on: February 29, 2016, 02:03:13 AM »
Viva;
I mentioned seasoning the outside (non food contact area) of the steel pan and using oil in the pan with each use to facilitate release. The seasoning on the outside of the pan will continually darken with use thus improving heat absorption properties of the pan...remember, you were adamant about using a steel pan. As for aluminum pans, unless the finish is stated as being a non-stick finish, it will still require some seasoning to ensure a consistent release from the pan. The thing about the dark colored anodized pans is that they are already dark in color so they bake well right from the get-go, where as the non-colored (clear-coat) anodized finish will require outside seasoning to darken the pan for improved heat absorption. Literally translated, you can expect the clear-coat anodized finish pans to bake somewhat differently until they develop that prized dark finish on the outside. Without a seasoned finish they will always require the use of oil in the pan for satisfactory release properties.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline lloydrep

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #12 on: February 29, 2016, 03:10:53 PM »
This is a good discussion and I want to make a distinction about the LloydPans PSTK coatings from all the others. We do not have any plastic or petroleum products in our PSTK coating like mainstream non-stick coatings have. Our release coating works on the principal of having an extremely smooth, hard surface that food products have a tough time adhering to. Even if, after thousands of bakes, there is any leaching into the food, our formula is non-toxic and not petroleum based. PSTK is extremely durable with commercial customers still using our pans with good release after more than 10 years of daily use.

Regarding cooking at high temperatures, pans with food products in them rarely get near the oven temperature for the time of baking. Bread products would be burnt black at 500 or 600 degrees. PSTK coating is temperature safe to 700 degrees F but this is only possible to get to with an empty pan in the oven... not recommended.

I am sensitive as well about chemical contaminants in my food and my environment. Comparing our coating to the oil that is used to season pans, which most certainly leaches into the food because you can taste it, I personally choose PSTK coating hands down. While I am not a chemist or engineer, I can see that seasoning pans with oil, causing them to polymerize and carbonize, can be error prone for many reasons and is unkown whether this is more toxic and cancer causing than a non-toxic coating that resists wear.

I hope this adds to the conversation.
I work at the LloydPans manufacturing plant. Questions are welcome concerning our products and their use. We also own pizzatools.com and sell the same products at both websites.

Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #13 on: February 29, 2016, 06:43:02 PM »
This is a good discussion and I want to make a distinction about the LloydPans PSTK coatings from all the others. We do not have any plastic or petroleum products in our PSTK coating like mainstream non-stick coatings have. Our release coating works on the principal of having an extremely smooth, hard surface that food products have a tough time adhering to. Even if, after thousands of bakes, there is any leaching into the food, our formula is non-toxic and not petroleum based. PSTK is extremely durable with commercial customers still using our pans with good release after more than 10 years of daily use.

Regarding cooking at high temperatures, pans with food products in them rarely get near the oven temperature for the time of baking. Bread products would be burnt black at 500 or 600 degrees. PSTK coating is temperature safe to 700 degrees F but this is only possible to get to with an empty pan in the oven... not recommended.

I am sensitive as well about chemical contaminants in my food and my environment. Comparing our coating to the oil that is used to season pans, which most certainly leaches into the food because you can taste it, I personally choose PSTK coating hands down. While I am not a chemist or engineer, I can see that seasoning pans with oil, causing them to polymerize and carbonize, can be error prone for many reasons and is unkown whether this is more toxic and cancer causing than a non-toxic coating that resists wear.

I hope this adds to the conversation.


Hello - Thanks for adding a little more information to the discussion.  I think you have represented your company and product in a respectful manner, without belittling my reservations. That's a respectful discussion and as much as anyone can hope for.  Personally I would need to understand better the nature of the coating (beyond what it is not (not plastic, not petroleum), and what its Thermogravimetric Analysis (TGA) curve would look like in the 250F to 800F range, and then some characterization of any mass lost thru the TGA process via FTIR/Mass spec or similar analytical technique.  These are technical details that most producers are not willing to share to customers.   But if you are, (I would sign an NDA of course) then sure I'll have a look.   Best Regards, Matt

Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #14 on: February 29, 2016, 06:50:28 PM »
VivaSirena,

It looks like you have already done a fair amount of homework, and you have also set the bar quite high. If you haven't already done so, you might check out these possibilities:

Amnow (American Metalcraft): http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies (note that the pans at http://www.amnow.com/Pizza-Supplies/Square-Deep-Dish-Pans/Square-Deep-Dish-Pans#.VtLpCzH2YdU are perforated)

Northern Pizza Equipment: http://www.northernpizzaequipment.com/rectangular-pans-lids.html (the pans shown are Detroit-style pans)


Chicago Metallic: http://www.cmbakeware.com/sites/default/files/pdf/012113_cm_2013_cat.pdf

Allied: http://www.alliedmetalusa.com/category/main/pizza-pans-utensils/pizza-pans/ and http://www.alliedmetalusa.com/catalog/Digital%20Catalog.html

P.A. Products: http://paprod.com/pans.html (note that the Detroit pans are no longer available at P.A. Products)

I don't know if all of the above information is current, and you will want to keep in mind that some of the sources cited do not sell direct to consumers.

Good luck with your search. Please let us know if you find what you are looking for.

Peter


Thanks for these leads Peter.  I have ordered 1 Anodized Aluminum "Bakalon" (non-glazed) 13 x 18 pan, item 40952, page 26.   http://www.cmbakeware.com/sites/default/files/pdf/012113_cm_2013_cat.pdf

I feel that this may be my best shot at finding a sweet spot between baking quality, risk minimization, etc. 
I'll let you all know how it goes.

Thanks again
Matt

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Offline Giggliato

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2016, 11:34:16 AM »
You could use iron? Iron is good for you to eat.

Offline Cardo

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2016, 05:31:15 PM »
Recently I've been using a plain old cast iron skillet.I put a little bit of olive oil in the bottom and use a 525 degree oven.I think you can buy square ones if you prefer.Hope this helps.

Offline xstine

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #17 on: January 15, 2019, 04:00:43 PM »
Matt - interested in how the pan you went with worked out?

Thanks!

Offline Jackitup

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #18 on: January 15, 2019, 09:20:37 PM »
Matt - interested in how the pan you went with worked out?

Thanks!

I don't know if he'll be answering, the post is 2 years old and pretty much the LAST time he was active looking at his profile!
Jon

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Offline VivaSirena

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Re: Sicilian Pizza Pan Search - I have nearly given up - Can you help?
« Reply #19 on: September 21, 2021, 09:22:49 PM »
Matt - interested in how the pan you went with worked out?

Thanks!

Sorry for the 2 year delay!   I got away from this site for a bit but getting more into it again. 
The bakalon pan is great! I highly recommend.  I have gotten nice results.

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