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Author Topic: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please  (Read 766 times)

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Offline munselln8

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A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« on: May 27, 2021, 09:32:19 AM »
Hey All,
Looking for some opinions or advice on a little problem I am having with DKM's Chicago recipe (from the main site). I've made this before as presented on the site and in a 14" Lloyd's pan and had no issue. I recently scaled it down for a 12" Lloyd's pan and now I am having some trouble. As lame as it sounds, I can't get the 12" pie out of the pan (without murdering it) to save my life. I've made it twice in the past two days! (Yes, I have a TON of leftovers in the fridge) and both times I struggled mightily to remove it from the pan: Breaking the side wall and even cracking the bottom in a few spots. I'll post my conversion weights for the dough but I am really wondering if I am A) Using too little dough (i.e. a crust too thin to support the weight of the toppings) or B) Just plain using too much cheese and toppings. Here are my numbers, let me know what you think.
Dough: (I arrived at this conversion by simply calculating the surface area of a 15" pie (the original recipe) and then determining the difference between that and a 12" pie (Which, IIRC, was 64%)
AP Flour: 320g
Cornmeal: 62g
Sugar: 7g
Salt: 4g
ADY: 4g
Water: 200g
Oil: 62g

Toppings:
Provolone: 1lb slices lining the bottom
Mozz: 1lb WMLM shredded
Sausage: 2/3-3/4 lb. pinched flat and covering entire cheese layer
Sauce: 28oz. Ground tomatoes (Cento brand)
Parmesan: approx. 2T sprinkled on top of sauce

I'm rolling out the rested dough to about 16", laying it in the pan, then press the sidewalls to the rim, and trimming overhang with back of kitchen knife. Dough loss this way is about (I didn't weight it)  a racquetball when balled up.

Pan is buttered or lightly oiled, placed in 450 oven, bottom rack, on 1 hour+ pre-heated stone for 25 minutes. The crust out nicely browned on top, sides and bottom. Pizza is not sticking to the bottom or sides (it slides back and forth a bit when shuffled about). But, I just can't seem to get the spatula underneath of it without busting up the sidewalls, and also, once I DO get it under and lift the pizza, I can't get it out of the pan without the dang thing busting all over the place, all the sidewalls collapsing and breaking at the intersect of base crust and sidewall...just an ugly mess.
The base and side crust are all around 3/16" thick post bake.
So...what are your thoughts?

Offline vic311

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #1 on: May 27, 2021, 10:55:56 AM »
I find a more flexible spatula, tilting the pan a little and patience work for me.  I have butchered some pies in the past however :D

Vic

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #2 on: May 27, 2021, 12:54:34 PM »
I find a more flexible spatula, tilting the pan a little and patience work for me.  I have butchered some pies in the past however :D

Vic

Thanks Vic. I have used a variety of spatulas (from a bent cake icing spatula to smash-burger spatula to a super-bendy plastic spatula). The plastic spatula managed to get the pizza up and at the edge of the sidewall, but still couldn't get the pie out without the crust cracking open most everywhere. :-(

Offline megan45

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #3 on: May 27, 2021, 01:51:54 PM »
Crust is way over-baked.

The timing for DKM's recipe is based on 36 oz/1020 g of dough; you're using is 23 oz/659g. You don't cook a 6oz steak the same amount of time you cook a 12 oz-er (at least not if you're shooting for the same degree of doneness), so why would you bake a 659g pizza the same length of time as a 1020g pizza?

Also, DKM doesn't employ a stone. The thermal conductivity of e.g.,cordierite (2.5-3 W/m K) is 100-120x that of air (0.020-0.025 W/m K), so dough in a pan sitting on a heated stone will bake MUCH more quickly than a pan sitting on a rack.

Start checking the crust at 15 min and pull the pie when the outside is crisp but the crust is still pliable. That'll likely be in the 17-20 minute range.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2021, 01:55:29 PM by megan45 »

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #4 on: May 27, 2021, 04:04:16 PM »
Crust is way over-baked.

The timing for DKM's recipe is based on 36 oz/1020 g of dough; you're using is 23 oz/659g. You don't cook a 6oz steak the same amount of time you cook a 12 oz-er (at least not if you're shooting for the same degree of doneness), so why would you bake a 659g pizza the same length of time as a 1020g pizza?

Also, DKM doesn't employ a stone. The thermal conductivity of e.g.,cordierite (2.5-3 W/m K) is 100-120x that of air (0.020-0.025 W/m K), so dough in a pan sitting on a heated stone will bake MUCH more quickly than a pan sitting on a rack.

Start checking the crust at 15 min and pull the pie when the outside is crisp but the crust is still pliable. That'll likely be in the 17-20 minute range.

That seems sensible. Oddly, the first pie cooked for 20 minutes but the crust (at the base) seemed undercooked. Just a pale tan color. The second pie baked 25 minutes and had a crust more between golden brown and brown. To eat it, it seemed appropriate. The lesser cooked pie was the more difficult to "de-pan".
All that said, you're logic makes sense to me. Perhaps I am expecting a crust much darker than I should be for this style of pizza. Thanks for the tip!

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Offline Garvey

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #5 on: May 27, 2021, 07:20:14 PM »
This is a pretty hefty casserole you're baking here.  With 1.5 lbs of dough, 2 lbs of cheese, nearly 2 lbs of sauce, and so on, there is no way this thing would be anywhere near done in 17 mins.  You didn't really mention its doneness as being a problem, but I'd say that if it is, drop the temp and bake longer.  This thing has a lot of mass, crammed into a 12" pan.

If you're interested, there are many newer recipes here.

But your real question was how to get it out of the pan.  Let me offer another way: don't bother.  Just cut it in the pan and serve it piece by piece.  Many restaurants do it this way.  Most, actually.


Offline vcb

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #6 on: May 27, 2021, 07:25:48 PM »
First thought... other than for your social media pics, why are you bothering to pop your deep dish out of the pan?

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Offline Garvey

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #7 on: May 27, 2021, 07:27:14 PM »
Or just practice more.  See the 17:00 mark:

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2021, 09:04:58 PM »
This is a pretty hefty casserole you're baking here.  With 1.5 lbs of dough, 2 lbs of cheese, nearly 2 lbs of sauce, and so on, there is no way this thing would be anywhere near done in 17 mins.  You didn't really mention its doneness as being a problem, but I'd say that if it is, drop the temp and bake longer.  This thing has a lot of mass, crammed into a 12" pan.

If you're interested, there are many newer recipes here.

But your real question was how to get it out of the pan.  Let me offer another way: don't bother.  Just cut it in the pan and serve it piece by piece.  Many restaurants do it this way.  Most, actually.

I have been strongly considering this!!! Actually, this is my fall back, but I was worried about scoring / scarring my VERY expensive Lloyd's pan. I was considering using the "Downward stab of a flat-tipped metal spatula" technique as I have seen in other videos. No worries about scratching the Sh!t out of my pan?

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2021, 09:06:39 PM »
Or just practice more.  See the 17:00 mark:


I've watched this video, like, 100 times!!! I, literally just today, ordered one of these Loooong spatulas!! haha! Still thinking I might just use the "spatula stab" technique...

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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2021, 12:59:35 AM »
Here is a bakers spatula

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/dexter-russell-17443-sani-safe-8-stainless-steel-bakers-spatula-with-white-handle

They have a thinner width so you can get under the edge better.

First, the pizza is never pulled out of the pan ever!  What your doing really is pulling the pan away from the pizza, itís just technique.  You want to slide the spatula under the crust just enough to lift it while you quickly pull the pan away.  Your not lifting the pizza out of the pan.  Before doing that slide the spatula around the edge to make sure itís not sticking anywhere, slide the spatula under the crust, lift slightly then pull the pan away. 

If you notice in the video it takes him 3 tries and he mangles the crust.  Heís using too wide of a spatula and honestly not moving fast enough, not the greatest technique but the right idea.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2021, 01:21:58 AM by PizzaGarage »

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2021, 07:28:56 AM »
First thought... other than for your social media pics, why are you bothering to pop your deep dish out of the pan?

 :pizza: PUBLIC SERVICE ANNOUNCEMENT :pizza:
Serve your deep dish pizza from the pan! You don't need to take it out of there!

Truth is I was afraid of scoring my pan ($40 Lloyd's pan). In the past, when using my cast iron (pre Lloyd's days) I didn't worry about it and just cut it in the pan. So, the new question is: How do y'all cut in the pan, with what tool, and how do you avoid scoring the pan? Or is the pan tough enough to not worry about? TIA!
Lastly, Of course I would serve it in the pan. After cutting it on a pizza sheet, I would slide it back in the deep dish....hahaha! Pretty phony, I realize  :-[

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2021, 07:33:46 AM »
Here is a bakers spatula

https://www.restaurantsupply.com/dexter-russell-17443-sani-safe-8-stainless-steel-bakers-spatula-with-white-handle

They have a thinner width so you can get under the edge better.

First, the pizza is never pulled out of the pan ever!  What your doing really is pulling the pan away from the pizza, itís just technique.  You want to slide the spatula under the crust just enough to lift it while you quickly pull the pan away.  Your not lifting the pizza out of the pan.  Before doing that slide the spatula around the edge to make sure itís not sticking anywhere, slide the spatula under the crust, lift slightly then pull the pan away. 

If you notice in the video it takes him 3 tries and he mangles the crust.  Heís using too wide of a spatula and honestly not moving fast enough, not the greatest technique but the right idea.
PG,
You're right, of course, regarding the technique...a lot of my pizza issues are always related to technique. CDD is a newer pursuit for me so it will take a bit to get around the curve.
As for the baker's spatula. I have a slew of them I use for cakes and I actually tried my "offset" spatula on the second pie. My biggest issue (with all the spatulas) was getting the spatula UNDER the base of the pie. Sliding the spatula down the side is easy enough but, when I would rotate the spatula to get under the base many time, instead of sliding under the base and lifting the pie slightly, it would simply "punch" through the sidewall of the pie...making it harder and harder to get it out. I'll keep practicing, of course...and eating the mistakes ;-)

Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2021, 02:25:22 PM »
A couple things I have noticed since starting this thread, and a big thanks to all for the inspiration to keep researching and growing on my CDD journey!
1) About 50% of the CDD joints in Chicago (just based on my interent research) serve their pies "in the pan". Places like Malnatis and Giordano's seem to de-pan and serve on a cardboard round / flat pan while places like Gino's east and Peaqod's cut and serve directly in the pan. (Gino's seems to have a "more watery" sauce (from what I can tell from various videos) while Peaqod's has the cheese crust and so, it makes sense they would keep it in the pan.
2) The bake time of 20-25 minutes at 450 seems entirely appropriate for a 12" CDD. Most of the places I was able to track down the details for are cooking a 12" AT LEAST that long, some longer, and some at higher temperatures. This jives with Garvey's observation of cooking this monster, but is in contrast with Megan's observation of reduced cooking time vs a 14". I can tell you, of the two I have made so far (two 12" CDD pies in two days...I'll never finish eating them!!) The one cooked for 20 minutes was, decidedly, undercooked. The one cooked 25 minutes was better and I would dare to say a 30 minute bake would not be out of the question.
3) The use of a preheated stone seems to be the most generally recommended method. All of the CDD joints I could verify in Chicago cook directly on the stone deck and most of the recipes I was able to find on this site recommend using the pre-heated stone as well (including VCB's own 12" CDD pie recipe).
4) It looks like most joints are not bringing the crust up to the edge of the 2" pan (like I did), unless it is a "stuffed" pie (which has the sheet of dough over top of the cheese and fillings). Most joints seem to be pulling the dough about 1.5" up the sides and leaving it at that.
5) It seems that I am "over-stuffing" my pie. For a 12" pie, most joints (including Malnati's, Giordano's, Peaqod's and Gino's...as well as VCB's recipe call for about 1lb - 1.25 lbs of cheese and 1lb or so (16-20 oz.) of sauce.

In conclusion: I think, having pulled the dough all the way up the 2" sides of my pan has created a slightly thinner TF than would be usual, as well as creating a need to add additional fillings (overloading) in order to fill that 2" high crust. The cooking method seems appropriate based on everything I could find online and in accordance with most recipes on this site. So....
Next pie: I will follow the same dough recipe (although I am VERY close to switching to VCB's 2014 RDD recipe - which isn't THAT much different that DKM's), will pull it only 3/4 up the pan sides (1.5-1.75")...will use less cheese (which will be fine since I don't have as much pie to fill), less sauce (maybe...I love the sauce), and cook with the same process (450 preheated stone on bottom rack for 25-30 minutes). This should result in a lighter pie, with a slightly thicker crust, while still maintaining a fully filled deep dish pie.
Thicker crust, lighter pie should equal easier to de-pan: if I actually decide to de-pan it. (still waiting on the consensus about cutting directly in the Lloyd's pan).
Thanks everyone who jumped in and helped. Your concepts and experience give me the drive to keep working and improving. I appreciate you!

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2021, 11:15:59 PM »
PG,
You're right, of course, regarding the technique...a lot of my pizza issues are always related to technique. CDD is a newer pursuit for me so it will take a bit to get around the curve.
As for the baker's spatula. I have a slew of them I use for cakes and I actually tried my "offset" spatula on the second pie. My biggest issue (with all the spatulas) was getting the spatula UNDER the base of the pie. Sliding the spatula down the side is easy enough but, when I would rotate the spatula to get under the base many time, instead of sliding under the base and lifting the pie slightly, it would simply "punch" through the sidewall of the pie...making it harder and harder to get it out. I'll keep practicing, of course...and eating the mistakes ;-)

Never go straight down and under like in the video, you will punch the side all the time, itís the wrong technique.  Instead slide the rounded part of the bakers spatula at an angle almost level with the pan, slide along the edge and as you are sliding twist the wrist to turn the tip under the crust, keep moving under the crust then pull the pan away.  Iíll have to video this for you but hope that gives you an idea.


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Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #15 on: May 29, 2021, 06:58:39 AM »
Thanks PG! That makes perfect sense and, yes, I was going straight down and trying to dig my way under the pie... :-[

Offline vcb

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2021, 01:13:17 PM »
Places like Malnatis and Giordano's seem to de-pan and serve on a cardboard round / flat pan...

I know that Malnati's removes their pizzas from the pan for delivery and takeout, and I'll admit that it's been some time since I've dined at a Lou Malnati's, but the last time I did, they were serving slices from the pan.
If they've changed that procedure for dine-in, it might be to keep the pans rotating back to the kitchen for baking more pizzas.
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Offline munselln8

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2021, 12:47:28 PM »
Latest update: I was on family vacation last week with 10 adult family members and was tasked with dinner duties for "Pizza night". Along with a 12" Chicago style, I also made a 14" Pizza Hut Clone (xPHMgr recipe), and two 16" NY Style pizzas. It was hectic but it worked out as follows:
Prepped everything the night before (as usual). Preheated gas oven with two stones (bottom rack and middle rack) for two hours at 550. Dropped the Chi-style on bottom rack and dropped the temp to 475 I( needed 475 for the PH clone), cooked 15 mins before popping in the PH clone on the middle rack stone. Cooked both for 14 more minutes and pulled. Cranked heat back to 550 while I de-panned the Chi-Style and the PH clone. Cut into pieces and re-panned both. Note- The Chi-style was PERFECT! I re-measured my Lloyds pan and discovered it was 2.25" high. So...I made the normal size doughball but only pulled it up about 1.5-1.75" up the sides. Filled with 1/2 lb. provolone slices on bottom plus 1/2lb. shredded mozz. plus 1/2 lb sweet Italian sausage and about 16 oz. sauce. Perfection! Crust was a dark golden brown, de-panned fairly easily and was the overall hit of the night!
The other three pizzas came out well too, but I will stay focused on the Chi-Style.
I didn't switch over to the VCB recipe because I didn't have any time to practice it and didn't want to go in blind with a dozen family members with high expectations waiting for dinner. I used the same recipe I had been using for the previous two pizzas as mentioned in the OP. The lower side-walls (1.75") and the reduced cheeses and sauce, as well as the increased cooking temp and length of bake all added together for an EXCELLENT result! I realize that the PH clone was in their for approximately half of the bake and was likely stealing some heat from the CHI so I will probably drop the temp back to 450 when baking a Chi solo, but in this case it worked splendidly! Long story short: The wisdom on this page and the willinginess to help a fellow pizzaiolo has come together to make another GREAT Pizza!! Thanks everyone!
P.S. By the time I finished making the two NY style pizzas the CHI style was demolished and so no pictures were taken of that beautiful pie :-( I did however, manage to get opne piece of it for myself. I prefer spicy sausage to sweet but otherwise nothing left to change IMHO.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2021, 12:49:08 PM by munselln8 »

Offline Garvey

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Re: A little help with DKM's Chicago recipe please
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2021, 12:55:57 PM »
Sounds like you've got your process down now.  That's the hardest part, the dao of deep dish, as it were.  Now it's just riffing on endless variations, if you so desire.  It's like riding a bike. 

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