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Author Topic: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans  (Read 865 times)

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Offline mobiledynamics

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Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« on: June 19, 2021, 05:49:08 PM »
Analysis Paralysis   ::)

In the world of cooking, my primary preference is 3MM+ CU pans for it's responsiveness with a select few SS pans for the easy throw in the dishwasher ease of use.

I've been looking/reading/researching Silician or just any -pan- type - and I may be in the wrong forum or just opposite of  everyones POV, but in the world of -deep/dish- type pans for pizzamaking, Lloyd's seems to be a forum favorite.

Mainly cause it's dark - emmisivity ?
is -bright/bare thick aluminum- 16AWG - better conductivity, just as good ? Only Applicable if the pan sits on a stone, I suppose as anything in the oven on efficiency is not going to be benefited by the most conductive material 

I have a single NonStick Pan, and I only use it for delicate food like certain fish...and these days, I am close to using it very nil to none.

For the heat the the -pizza dish- pan, sees, erring 450+ north for discussion sake. Or Debate Sake.
I don't want a Coated Pan in any material.

It seems the only other option blue steel - seasoned or what I am  leaning on, which is Good Heavy Gauge 16AWG Bare Aluminum Pans.

So what camp do you on. Pan needs to be -dark- in order to achieve a nice deep crust.
Or the bare uncoated stuff, which I don't see any anodize -non coated- on the market
« Last Edit: June 19, 2021, 07:29:53 PM by mobiledynamics »

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2021, 06:06:17 PM »
For me it's non coated steel. Season it and go.

Offline scott r

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2021, 10:33:14 AM »
I have both blue steel and lloyds.  For me the lloyds works better and my blue steels have been retired.  The lloyds pans, although advertised as non stick, are not like any other non stick pan I have ever encountered.  Im not sure what it is but its nothing like teflon or ceramic and its also not nearly as non stick as they are either. It seems impenetrable and more like an anodized pan (but they are their own thing).  They RECOMMEND using metal utensils and have videos of them scraping their pans with a screwdriver.  It will not come off.   For me they act just like a blue steel pan with a slightly lower thermal conductivity (which I prefer).

The blue steel pans bake a little too fast for me.  I prefer to bake with my home oven up all the way up with really wet dough to get more oven spring.  If you want to bake at 500 with mid hydration dough the blue steel might be better because it gives more browning, but at 585 with a 75 percent hydration dough the lloyds is the way to go because you can bake till really crispy, and get your pies to dark brown rather than black with the center of your pizzas cooked through without a par bake.

Offline mobiledynamics

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #3 on: June 20, 2021, 11:46:14 AM »
I don't think the Lloyds pan are just -anodized- and nothing more. I mean they market them with the PSTK.

--marketing--- aside  ??? ::), any metal utensil used on any surface will abrade IMO....whether you see it, taste it or not, may be a different perception I suppose.

Lot'sa of reason for me to go with uncoated pan.
I stated in my OP that I do have  single non stick that I keep around for delicate Proteins.
But I avoid any -coating- in this realm of cookware for the most part

If you're into a read ...

https://www.pewtrusts.org/en/research-and-analysis/blogs/stateline/2018/06/22/nonstick-chemicals-can-really-stick-around-in-your-body
https://fortune.com/longform/teflon-pollution-north-carolina/

https://www.ewg.org/research/national-pfas-testing/
https://theintercept.com/2019/12/19/pfas-chemicals-europe-phase-out/

« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 04:29:26 PM by mobiledynamics »

Offline scott r

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #4 on: June 20, 2021, 02:26:21 PM »
I hate the idea of coated pans and dont use them, but my lloyds pan makes my best squares. They make enough of a difference that im taking the chance.  After many cleans and bakes they seem unlike anything I have ever encountered as far as durability goes..... not unlike an anodized pan (I wasnt trying to imply that it was simply an anodised pan, btw). 

 
« Last Edit: June 20, 2021, 10:46:12 PM by scott r »

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Offline Papa T

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2021, 07:41:54 AM »
I have four Lloyd pans. They are not coated in the typical sense. They are "pre-seasoned" so it's more difficult for food to stick to them. I don't know what Lloyd puts on them, but it's rightly called tuff-kote as it has been extremely resiliant. It's like nothing I've ever used before.

I have two 10x14x2.5" pans for Sicilian/Detroit style pizza, and two 10x1" pans for bar pizza. I've used them dozens and dozens of times, with metal utensils like metal grill spatulas and offset spatulas used for cake decorating, and they are none the worse for the ware. They all release pizza easily with just a bit of coaxing on occasion. They have been flawless. Note, the 10x14 pan also is a great for baking brownies. Done that many times. Lasagna is on my bucket list for them, too.

After using them, I just wash them in hot water, dry them off, and store them under the counter. If something is particularly stuck, I just fill the pan with enough water to cover it, and let it sit a few minutes. It comes right up using just a paper towel or sponge. I love the pans. The Lloyd pans just work.

I know they have some kind of easy release feature, but I don't think it's like what people are used to. I've never seen any other cook or bakeware advocate such a process. If you have a typical frying pan or pot that has a "non-stick" coating, they still recommend that you use wood, silicone or nylon utensils. Not Lloyd. The pans are fine when using metal tools.

Lloyd calls it pre-season tuff kote and it seems to be bonded in a way that makes it part of the metal of the pan. They call it a pre-seasoning, not a coating like PTFE (Teflon) is. It's doesn't seem to be like the sprayed on or affixed coatings liked used on typical cookware, which scratches easily. The PSTK thing seems to be part of the pan itself.

Anyway, I've had zero issues with them, cleaning them, all while using metal utensils, which I don't need to use as much anymore. I needed to use metal tools more when I first got the pans, but now after using them so many times, I think I could loosen the Detroit and South Shore style pizza with those caramelized edges, using a popsicle stick. They seem to have broken in well. I never use soap on them, and never put them in the dish washer. Just hot water, a few swipes with a paper towel or sponge, and then dry them by hand or stick them in the dish drainer to drip dry. The pans literally take less than a minute to wash with hot water. I don't see a need to even think about putting them in a dishwasher. They're aluminum, so even if a bit damp, they won't rust in the drainer or with water standing in them to soften really baked on food.

Can Lloyd pans be damaged by metal utensils? I'm sure they can. If I scrape it hard enough with a metal grill spatula, I'm sure it will gouge, just like any cookware would, but that's not the coating coming off, that's metal being removed. With the Lloyd pans being dark like blue steel pans, yet rust free because they are aluminum, it's like the best of both worlds. Basically maintenance free, and no need to worry about rusting from infrequent use like blue steel pans. It was a no brainer for me to get them. Yes, they are pricy, but they will likely last my lifetime.



Analysis Paralysis   ::)

In the world of cooking, my primary preference is 3MM+ CU pans for it's responsiveness with a select few SS pans for the easy throw in the dishwasher ease of use.

I've been looking/reading/researching Silician or just any -pan- type - and I may be in the wrong forum or just opposite of  everyones POV, but in the world of -deep/dish- type pans for pizzamaking, Lloyd's seems to be a forum favorite.

Mainly cause it's dark - emmisivity ?
is -bright/bare thick aluminum- 16AWG - better conductivity, just as good ? Only Applicable if the pan sits on a stone, I suppose as anything in the oven on efficiency is not going to be benefited by the most conductive material 

I have a single NonStick Pan, and I only use it for delicate food like certain fish...and these days, I am close to using it very nil to none.

For the heat the the -pizza dish- pan, sees, erring 450+ north for discussion sake. Or Debate Sake.
I don't want a Coated Pan in any material.

It seems the only other option blue steel - seasoned or what I am  leaning on, which is Good Heavy Gauge 16AWG Bare Aluminum Pans.

So what camp do you on. Pan needs to be -dark- in order to achieve a nice deep crust.
Or the bare uncoated stuff, which I don't see any anodize -non coated- on the market
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 02:39:37 AM by Papa T »
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2021, 10:20:37 AM »
So are the coatings used on the pans scientifically established as being harmful to human health?  (no lab-animal results please,,, and no "linked to", or "possible risk" type of things either).  Is it a clear-cut direct causation?


I'm asking because I just recently ordered 2 Lloyd pans with PSTK.

Offline mobiledynamics

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2021, 11:38:17 AM »
9Slice -

In the world of any coated pan....it's quasi subjective I suppose to how you use it......
I've seen friends non stick pans at their house....clearly degraded, chipped, they still cook and eat what's been cooked in it. Oblivious to the health concerns I suppose.

This is the PMF Forum afterall. And Lloyds did appear to have a good following on this board, base on my searches, so I figured I'd open up the issue of coated vs (own seasoned pans) for debate/discussion

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2021, 11:59:35 AM »
I emailed Lloypans earlier today about their pans and this issue, they said this in their response:

"PSTK® is the acronym for Pre-Seasoned Tuff-Kote® finish. It is a permanent stick-resistant finish, not a non-stick release coating. Traditional non-stick release coatings typically contain PTFE and PFOA, both of which are considered toxins that could be harmful to human health. PSTK® release finish is both PTFE and PFOA free.

Our three permanent, toxin-free coatings that are infused into the pan surface, create a durable baking platform that will out-last and out-perform any other pan on the market. These coatings are permanent, and because they will not chip, peel, or flake off our pans, they will never become embedded in the foods our customers prepare…and we think that is vitally important for healthy eating."

Offline Papa T

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2021, 04:18:16 PM »
I find any debate about cook and bakeware coatings amusing. The heating of carbohydrates, whether by baking, toasting, frying, et al, creates acrylamide, a known toxin and carcinogen. The darker the carb gets, the more acrylamide is created. It doesn't matter if the carb/starch is from wheat, potato, rice, corn or whatever, if it's a carb and it turns brown or darker, that cooking process creates significant amounts of acrylamide. The darker it gets, the more acrylamide is created and it's logarithmic in scale, not linear. Like crispy, brown French fries? Yeah, they're full of acrylamide.

Those Neapolitan pizzas with those black bubbles of charred carbohydrates, are filled with huge amounts of toxic, cancer causing acrylamide, yet people gladly chow down on them not worried a bit about it. Yet, mention non-stick coatings and many rush to the convo to bring up toxicity. The few molecules of PTFEs or PFOAs we may be ingesting from cooking and bakeware is minimal compared to the massive amount of acrylamide we consume daily from cooked, baked, and fried carbs of any kind. Amusing it is.

All carbs when heated produce acrylamide. Copious amounts as it gets darker. So do most charred foods, even proteins, though to a much lesser extent. Those back yard burgers with the charred bits, or those smash burgers with the crispy edges, or that charred pepperoni or cheese, all create acrylamide too, though considerably less than what carbs can create.

As with so many things in life that could be bad for us, it's the amount, not the exposure that is usually harmful. We all know that ethyl alcohol is a toxin and will kill us if consumed in large amounts. We put it in our gas tanks, and yet we also drink it as wine, beer, and liquor, which we gladly consume in small amounts. Ethyl alcohol is present even after cooking, in any food product that is fermented or cured. It never fully cooks away unless the food is incinerated. If I were to send any baked pizza/yeast dough to a lab to test for ethyl alcohol, they would find it. It's in there, it's toxic, it gets consumed, yet causes no harm at that minuscule level.

As with most things that are toxic, it's the dosage or amount ingested that is relevant, not simply that it's toxic. What we don't know is the toxic level in humans of bio-accumulators like PFOAs, which are forever chemicals and are toxic. Lloyd pans are PFOA and PTFE free, so that's not an issue with them. Unlike chemicals such as ethyl alcohol which is eliminated from our bodies, some chemicals never leave us. They're in us right now and will always be there. We we don't know is at what accumulation level, if any, that they will cause us harm. Folks have been ingesting them for decades and we haven't really seen anything bad happen to the general population, so I'm thinking that we need to ingest a lot of them to cause us harm. I've always lived with the philosophy that the stress of worrying about something toxic will likely kill me faster than the chemical on its own. Live life, worry less, live longer is my motto.

Folks worried about toxins would be better served by worrying about that baked pastry and dark roasted coffee that they consume for breakfast most days, rather than if a coated cooking pan is going to harm them. The more you know...

Enjoy your Lloyd pans. They're great, and there are more important things in life to worry about than baking pans.

So are the coatings used on the pans scientifically established as being harmful to human health?  (no lab-animal results please,,, and no "linked to", or "possible risk" type of things either).  Is it a clear-cut direct causation?


I'm asking because I just recently ordered 2 Lloyd pans with PSTK.
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2021, 05:15:44 PM »
Ethyl alcohol is present even after cooking
wat?


Quote from:
Enjoy your Lloyd pans. They're great

Thanks!

Offline Papa T

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #11 on: June 22, 2021, 02:59:22 AM »
Yes, true. Many tests have been done to test for our friend Ethyl and it never all, 100%, cooks or bakes away. It may be micro or nanogram present, but it's in there and detectable. Same for any sauce that has wine added to it, like a pasta sauce or wine demi-glace. The vast majority of it boils off, but not all of it.

This is why some religious groups won't eat any sauce that has been made with wine, because its never totally 100% boiled off. However, they do still eat yeast breads, so like, I'm confused about that one, but I don't want to ruin it for them either. Maybe they don't know yeast fermentation makes ethyl alcohol? I can't imagine living without bread, and feel blessed that I never paid attention to that gluten will kill you schpeel. They can have my bread when they pry it from my cold, dead, hands, LMAO!

wat?
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 03:01:21 AM by Papa T »
Everything sounds better in latin.
Omnis pizza 'est bonum.
Every pizza is good.

Making good pizza is not that hard, unless we choose to make it that way.

The best pizza you'll ever make for someone is making the one they ask for instead of making it the way we think it should be made.

Offline mobiledynamics

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2021, 11:03:11 AM »
I received my Lloyds Pan today.

In my readings/research on the Lloyd Pans, I did find some remarks on quality the manuf. finish of the product. More often it was like 2 or 4 marks on the rim, etc but this was to be expected on how they hold/support their pan during their coating process. I haven't cooked with it yet, and I suppose the cooking results is what would speak for it.

However, whatever -finish coating- we speak of, it's thin and the QC does not seem good. While the rim has these expected - bare- metal spots on mine as well, on the inside bottom edge, where it meets the sidewalls, there are 3 areas, about 2 inches long, that is bare aluminum on the running inside perimeter of it.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 11:41:00 AM by mobiledynamics »

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #13 on: June 24, 2021, 11:17:53 AM »
While the rim has these expected - bare- metal spots on mine as well, on the inside bottom edge, where it meets the sidewalls, there are 3 areas, about 2 inches long, that is bare aluminum on the running inside perimeter of it.

Can you post your thoughts after having used the pan?  Curious to see how it performs considering your above quote.

Offline mobiledynamics

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #14 on: June 24, 2021, 04:32:09 PM »
9Slice - Haven't decided whether I'm going to keep it....Might just go back in the original direction, which is bare aluminum (decent thick gauge stuff made here in the 'USA) and whatever -seasoning- I end up putting on it

The finish on it is different than anything I've held. It's not a -hard anodized- like you would be accustomed to in a anodized aluminum piece of cookware. It's anodized ---very thin----. It's different. I still have to do a larger diiiiggg into the PSTK.


I can't ever recall from any other line that states 700F dry temp is safe as well as metal utensil is welcome to be used. Unless, their PSTK that is being touted is just the anodized aluminum that they are saying its not nonstick but -stick resistant-.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 05:42:01 PM by mobiledynamics »

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Offline lloydrep

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2021, 03:38:38 PM »
Very interesting discussion! In talking with our engineers, we agree very much with Papa T, that "As with most things that are toxic, it's the dosage or amount ingested that is relevant, not simply that it's toxic."

That said, our pans are manufactured and finished 100% in our facility, so we control how and with what material these products are made. They are indeed hard coat anodized, then finished with our proprietary PSTK which contains no PFAS. Our coating is unique in that there are no fluoropolymers in the finish and no toxic chemicals used in preparing or applying the finish. In fact, we received environmentally favorable reviews from local agencies regarding our waste:

“This company strives to do things right. They’re very environmentally conscious and probably the county’s best industrial user..”
Stella Matei, Pretreatment Engineer for Spokane County Department of Utilities

“The inhouse wastewater effort is their most impressive accomplishment...one of the most progressive of the 500 or so companies I have visited during the 12 years I have worked for Ecology.”
Rolfe Parsloe, Hazardous Waste Technical Assistance Specialist for the Washington Department of Ecology

Marketing, yes, can be hyped up, partially true sing-songs that many companies employ. LloydPans looks at marketing as how we communicate and educate our customers about our products and honesty is one of our core values. Our products are not claimed to be "non-stick" rather we say they are "stick-resistant". This is because they are really a different finish than most all the other bakeware that is rooted in using some fluoropolymer base to carry their ceramic or diamond or whatever material. PSTK is a water-based release finish that creates a mineral-like, extremely smooth surface that makes it difficult for foods to cling to as they are baked. The finish is non-toxic and permanently fused with the anodized surface. Keeping the surface clean of build-up will ensure a long, useful life.

Regarding blue steel or bare aluminum pans, they must be seasoned before use otherwise foods will stick like glue. The seasoning is some cooking oil that is coated on the pan then heated, multiple times. This "coating", a polymerization of oil, can be delicate and is prone to interact with your food, imparting an unpleasant taste. Is this better than a coating like PSTK? Our tests show no taste interaction with foods baked in pans finished with PSTK, and noticeable taste influence with seasoned pans. They are both considered a coating and I personally choose the inert option.


I work at the LloydPans manufacturing plant. Questions are welcome concerning our products and their use. We also own pizzatools.com and sell the same products at both websites.

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #16 on: September 09, 2021, 01:33:16 PM »
I am another satisfied cook with Lloyd PSTK pans.  Have been using 3 for 8 years or so, and just ordered 4 more.  Waiting on them to come...  ;D
All the best, Dave

Offline foreplease

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Re: Lloyds Pans - Coated Pans vs ---BARE--- Pans
« Reply #17 on: September 09, 2021, 11:19:16 PM »
So are the coatings used on the pans scientifically established as being harmful to human health?  (no lab-animal results please,,, and no "linked to", or "possible risk" type of things either).  Is it a clear-cut direct causation?


I'm asking because I just recently ordered 2 Lloyd pans with PSTK.
A quick search turned up this but no MSDS. They must have one.

“Non-Toxic | Metal Utensil Safe | Made in the USA
LloydPans Kitchenware is a USA-manufacturer of environmentally friendly and toxin-free Bakeware, Cookware, and Pizzaware. The company is firmly built upon the premise of encouraging a healthy lifestyle through food, and strives to reinforce this foundation with each new product it offers.”


I think you are asking the question backwards if you are interested in a positive statement or result.


EDIT: I did not see that it has been neatly 3 months since 9slicePie’s post or I probably would not have replied to it.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2021, 08:17:44 AM by foreplease »
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