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Author Topic: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?  (Read 501 times)

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Offline FunkedOut

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Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« on: September 24, 2021, 03:50:48 PM »
In a few hours I'll be attempting to bake a Chicago deep dish for the 4th time.
I have been unsuccessful in the past, and I think I know why.
Of course, I say that every time.

All my previous attempts, I have been using the same dough recipe as my NY style; 3% fat content.
1st time was actually a stuffed pizza.  The next two have been 2" deep 14" pies.
With all of them, the crust was so tough, chewy and hard.

I plan to only bring the sides up 1.5" this time.
And I have a new recipe for this dough, based on information gleaned from here, as well as some of my own fear of using sooooo much oil in the dough.
  • (Total Flour = 100%)
  • Bread Flour = 85%
  • Semolina Flour = 15%
  • Hydration (Water) = 50%
  • (Total Fat = 20%)
  • Corn Oil = 15%
  • Olive Oil = 5%
  • Salt = 2%
  • Dry Malt Extract (Sugar) = 2%
  • IDY = 0.5%

Not really relevant here, but 25% of the total flour comes via a sourdough starter.
The sourdough starter is essentially 50% Bread Flour and 50% water.
If you want to do that, you have to subtract half the weight of the starter from both the bread flour and the water.
I like to use sourdough in all my breads, as adds flavor and helps the shelf life.
Plus, I've really grown to understand its behavior.
This time, I am adding a bit of IDY to get a really good fluff.

Shooting for a thickness factor of 0.134, I made a couple of dough balls:
645g for a 12" American Metalcraft straight-walled pan & 610g for a 10" lodge cast iron skillet.  The skillet measures 2" deep and is 12" at the top of the pan.

I got through the math to compute the exact surface area of any pan, straight walled or sloped.  It is surprising how much area that slope adds.

I also made a 350g ball to try using this same dough as a thin crust 14" (thickness factor of 0.079).

I plan to bake all of them at the same time.
Cast iron pan at the bottom of the oven, as it should take longest to come up to temp.
Aluminum pan above that.
Thin crust above that one on an aluminum disc.

450*F and I'll pull them out as they look ready.
I'm thinking ~15 minutes for the thin.
~30min for the other two.

Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2021, 04:01:20 PM »
I put all the ingredients, save the fat, into the stand mixer and brought them together using a dough hook.  The 600W Kitchen Aid struggled a bit to get this mixed well as it is so dry, but it got through it alright.  Next time, I'd add some of the fat up front to help things out.
Then I left the mixer running as I drizzled the oil in, a little at a time, leaving the olive oil for last.

The entire dough ball got a bit of hand kneading to smooth it out and I let it rise in the oven with the light on for about 5 hours, when it doubled in size.

I cut the dough into the three individual balls, kneaded each one a bit and placed them into the fridge overnight (~12 hours).

I pulled the balls out and let them come up to temp for about 4 hours, when they again, doubled.  I kneaded each just enough to knock them down again.
This is normally not something I do, but my timing is off with the addition of IDY.

Another 2 hours on the counter and they have not proofed enough for my liking.
I just put them in the oven with the light on for the next couple of hours until baking.

Pictures are forthcoming...

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2021, 04:58:35 PM »
If you're learning to make these start out with a less complicated formulation and start with the basics.  Get the right rise and texture after bake and then move to more complexity.

I would bring this formulation to the basics first.

Go to AP flour not bread flour - you do not want higher levels of protein.  Start with King Arthur (still slightly higher in protein but works) or other AP flour.  Ceresota is perfect

Remove the Semolina

Take hydration to 47% and keep the oils if you want that texture.  If not, take hydration to 57% and add 6% corn oil (my opinion a better crust.

Remove Malt extract

Add 1-2% white sugar
Reduce yeast to .35

For a 12" pan with 2" side I like a 23oz Ball total - you can figure out the math in thickness factor etc..

Mixing:

Throw it all in the bowl, yeast on top of flour - undermix it - about 2-3 minutes on low.

Fermenting:

Put ball in fridge, 48 hours at 34-36 degrees,  72 is better, 24 is ok.

Rise:

Let dough ball warm up 1.1.5 hours, oil the pan, pan the dough and let rise at 90-100 degrees (max) for 1 hour to 1.5 - make sure you cover pan during this time not a show stopper but a good idea, sometimes a dry layer will form on top, can't really tell after it's baked anyway. No need to let rise for 4 hours and punch down, do the above to make it easy as you're learning.

Bake:

Dress and bake, 425-450 on screen on a stone

Start there with basics is my 2 cents.



« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 06:56:20 PM by PizzaGarage »

Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2021, 08:16:56 PM »
@PizzaGarage, thank you for your input, sir.
I will carry on the conversation in a moment.
But first, I need to get these pictures out...

I think I found success on this round!
Just the way things worked out, I baked the thin crust pie while I assembled the other two.
Was nice snacking on the thin crust while the deep dishes baked.

For this one, I didn't get a crispy crust, but a super soft bread.
It was delicious and I think I'd prefer less fat for a thin and crispy.
All in all, no complaints from the peanut gallery.  There was none left!

« Last Edit: September 24, 2021, 08:19:06 PM by FunkedOut »

Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2021, 08:31:09 PM »
The dough balls came out nice an fluffy.
I greased the pans with a bit of butter-flavored crisco.  Very subtle nuance in taste.  Almost could not taste it.  It was more of an aroma.

The dough spread out very easy and stuck in place.
Sliced mozzarella and sausage.
Sauce, parm/pecorino blend and pepperoni on top.

Skillet on the bottom rack, aluminum pan in the center rack.
450*F for 25 minutes.
Basil after the bake.

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Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2021, 08:37:07 PM »
Here are some pics of the pies after coming out of the pan/skillet.
We finished the pan pie, but did not even cut the skillet pie.

I think the crust on these was perfect.
Finally, flakey fluffy crust that wasn't raw, doughy or hard and chewy.

My lesson learned here was to use a bit less sauce next time.
I love a lot of sauce, but it would be better with less than this much.

Since life is about tweaking formulations, next time, I will pull back some oil and up the semolina to see if I get a tiny bit more crunch.

Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2021, 08:49:09 PM »
@PizzaGrage, again, thank you for your input.
I understand what you are saying when it comes to basics, and your suggestions for time, temp and inoculation rates.
I did what I did on this batch as a reaction to what was happening.
I usually have to adjust my time and temps according to what my schedule allows.
I have been baking weekly, for a several years now. 
The last few have been with this sourdough starter so its been a religious practice to keep this alive.

A couple of things you said caught peaked my interest:
Remove the Semolina...
Remove Malt extract...
Add 1-2% white sugar...
Why remove the semolina?
Why replace the malt extract with white sugar?
Curious to hear your reasons.

For a 12" pan with 2" side I like a 23oz Ball total - you can figure out the math in thickness factor etc..
I used 645g = 22.75oz.  We are pretty much in sync there.

Thanks again.

Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2021, 09:05:50 PM »
Reasoning is only to make it more simple until you have the basic texture, rise and color you want to create a baseline.  Afterwards to do more experiments until you arrive at that perfect pizza that works for you.

Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #8 on: September 25, 2021, 01:26:54 PM »
Got it.
I think what I was missing is the large amount fat in this dough.

Offline Garvey

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2021, 05:29:03 PM »
Try 450g of dough for a 12".

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Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2021, 06:09:27 PM »
Try 450g of dough for a 12".
That's a thickness factor of 0.093.  NY style range!
I'll try it that thin, but I really enjoyed the thicker bread on these pizzas.

Also, not sure if it was the reheat or what, but the pizza made in the cast iron skillet, reheated the next day as a whole, uncut pie, was better than the pan on day 1.
Probably gave it a chance to dry out the (too much) sauce I put on them.

Offline Garvey

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2021, 09:53:32 AM »
That's a thickness factor of 0.093.  NY style range!

Not at all.  I'm not a thickness factor guy, but the 450g dough weight for me is ideal and authentic.  It is a misconception that DD is a giant, thick slab of focaccia.
 
Quote
I'll try it that thin, but I really enjoyed the thicker bread on these pizzas.

That's cool!  Make what you like!

IMO, it seems way too thick with some uncooked dough in there.  I prefer more balance.  But I know a lot of people love the bread-bomb style, too.  If you experienced uncooked dough (hard to be sure from pix), you may need to tweak your baking protocol (e.g, drop temp, bake longer, move pizza from low spot in oven to higher as needed, etc.). Baking up these casseroles takes some tweaking for each person's oven and recipe.

Cheers!
Garvey

Offline vcb

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #12 on: September 30, 2021, 10:53:38 AM »
My current baseline dough weight for a 12 inch deep dish is about 530g for the current deep dish recipe I have up at https://www.realdeepdish.com/deepdishholygrail/
but everyone has a different preference on how much dough they want in their final product.

In case you weren't aware, thickness factor in the PMDC dough calc is based on inches - a TF of 0.25 would be a quarter inch thick base.

I think my current TF for deep dish is 0.165.
When I do my deep dish dough calculations, I leave the "how far up the sides" number at zero, as my goal for a deep dish sidewall is to be paper thin when you press it out - it will expand when baking.
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Offline FunkedOut

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #13 on: October 08, 2021, 02:37:41 PM »
My current baseline dough weight for a 12 inch deep dish is about 530g for the current deep dish recipe I have up at https://www.realdeepdish.com/deepdishholygrail/
but everyone has a different preference on how much dough they want in their final product.

In case you weren't aware, thickness factor in the PMDC dough calc is based on inches - a TF of 0.25 would be a quarter inch thick base.

I think my current TF for deep dish is 0.165.
When I do my deep dish dough calculations, I leave the "how far up the sides" number at zero, as my goal for a deep dish sidewall is to be paper thin when you press it out - it will expand when baking.

I am unable to use the PMDC dough calc here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html
Flash is no longer on my system.

I have always understood thickness factor was in ounces per square inch.
The actual thickness would vary by the amount of rise in the dough.
Maybe the calculator uses some different math?


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Chicago Deep Dish Pizza: Take 4-5-6?
« Reply #14 on: October 08, 2021, 03:09:24 PM »
I am unable to use the PMDC dough calc here: https://www.pizzamaking.com/dd-calculator.html
Flash is no longer on my system.

I have always understood thickness factor was in ounces per square inch.
The actual thickness would vary by the amount of rise in the dough.
Maybe the calculator uses some different math?
FunkedOut,

All of the forum's calculating tools are now at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=59104.msg592940#msg592940

In your case, see Item 2, which replaces the forum's former Flash-based tools.

You can see the thickness factor calculation at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36643.msg365619#msg365619

You can see a typical range of thickness factors for the deep dish style of pizza at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12243.msg115759;topicseen#msg115759

Peter

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