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Author Topic: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?  (Read 595 times)

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Offline proxy

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Figuring this out is above my pay grade, so I'm wondering if an experienced baker :pizza: :chef: can look at this label (nutritional facts) and come up with a recipe for amounts and ingredients I would need to replicate this pizza dough.  I would even appreciate if maybe you can make a rough recipe guess I could try and see if it gets close to what I'm looking for.


🙏🏻 🙏🏻 thanks in advance    :)

Offline Yael

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 03:43:54 AM »
That could have been a nice post for Tom Lehmann...

We can all only find "more or less", so here's my guess:
Flour: 100% (less the malted flour)
Water: (depends on the product (a picture would help) and the flour you will use, but my guess is that it's on the low HR side, like would be 54-56% for a Caputo Pizzeria for instance)
Salt: FYI, French bakery industry legal limit is 1.8%
Malted barley flour: Not sure about this one as I never used, it's not malt but it's malted flour, I'd say something between 3 and 5%?
Olive oil: I'd say no more than 2% if EVOO
Yeast: I'd say no more than 1% (in IDY equivalent)
Enzyme: ?? Don't know which ones
Dough: ?? Looks more like an additives mix, so have to refer to the suggested amounts of commercial mixes
Sunflower oil: I'm surprise there's more EVO than this one, I'd say 1%.

Wait till others chime in!
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 01:02:40 PM »
Figuring this out is above my pay grade, so I'm wondering if an experienced baker :pizza: :chef: can look at this label (nutritional facts) and come up with a recipe for amounts and ingredients I would need to replicate this pizza dough.  I would even appreciate if maybe you can make a rough recipe guess I could try and see if it gets close to what I'm looking for.


🙏🏻 🙏🏻 thanks in advance    :)

proxy,

People who put ingredients statements like you showed often mess things up. Also, trying to reverse engineer a dough from a nutrition statement is hard to do.

On the surface, the ingredients statement you showed appears to have two doughs. However, curiously, it puzzles me why two types of oil are used. Also, the other ingredients for the pizza, like cheese, sauce and toppings, are not mentioned in the ingredients statement. So, maybe there are two doughs that are frozen for later use. Can you tell us what kind of pizza is actually reflected by the ingredients statement and also who is behind that statement? Is what you showed possibly for something other than pizza? I ask this because the second part of the statement (beginning with Dough), with only flour and sunflower oil and no water,  is not a pizza dough. Also, the nutrition facts mention a container and a two ounce serving size.

Peter

Offline proxy

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 04:33:37 PM »
Indeed rip tom Lehmann, sad to have lost him  :(

This pizza dough has some qualities which I would like to learn to replicate Ö. these 3 points and flavor/mouthfeel. It doesnít feel like very high protein bread flour (maybe max 12-13% protein)

1. The dough is sold frozen (Iím guessing maybe it doesnít get proofed at room temp). I like this and would like to skip room temperature bulking, if possible.

2. The dough can be kept in the fridge for a couple days, a week, even two weeks, during which time it continues to rise, but flavor and workability does not deteriorate no matter at which point itís taken out of the fridge and baked.

3. The dough only needs about 30-60 minutes at room temp to be stretched and baked.

This dough appears to be mixed in local whole food store.

The pizza looks like this,  12Ē margheritta,  1/4 slice can usually hold straight .

Offline Yael

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 07:33:20 PM »
proxy,

People who put ingredients statements like you showed often mess things up. Also, trying to reverse engineer a dough from a nutrition statement is hard to do.

On the surface, the ingredients statement you showed appears to have two doughs. However, curiously, it puzzles me why two types of oil are used. Also, the other ingredients for the pizza, like cheese, sauce and toppings, are not mentioned in the ingredients statement. So, maybe there are two doughs that are frozen for later use. Can you tell us what kind of pizza is actually reflected by the ingredients statement and also who is behind that statement? Is what you showed possibly for something other than pizza? I ask this because the second part of the statement (beginning with Dough), with only flour and sunflower oil and no water,  is not a pizza dough. Also, the nutrition facts mention a container and a two ounce serving size.

Peter

Peter,

I first thought the "dough" statement in the ingredient list was like an old dough (or preferment, starter...) that would have been dried and powdered. Yeast, salt and water are already listed before so maybe they don't have to list them twice, it'd make sense.
Sunflower doesn't seem to be included in this "dough" (there's a coma after the parenthesis).
Two kinds of oil doesn't surprise me, as you know Tom often suggested a mix to reduce the costs of the olive oil. I would also choose those two, except that I would add more sunflower than EVOO, and add EVOO just for the sake of it (cost wise), lol.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #5 on: October 12, 2021, 10:28:13 AM »
Peter,

I first thought the "dough" statement in the ingredient list was like an old dough (or preferment, starter...) that would have been dried and powdered. Yeast, salt and water are already listed before so maybe they don't have to list them twice, it'd make sense.
Sunflower doesn't seem to be included in this "dough" (there's a coma after the parenthesis).
Two kinds of oil doesn't surprise me, as you know Tom often suggested a mix to reduce the costs of the olive oil. I would also choose those two, except that I would add more sunflower than EVOO, and add EVOO just for the sake of it (cost wise), lol.
Yael,

You may well be right about the preferment or starter.

I did miss the comma after the parenthesis. I will have to get my eyes recalibrated ;D.

I still don't know what the product is or who is behind it.

Peter

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 11:46:36 AM »
It doesn't look like anything very exotic or complicated to me. It looks like it's just bread flour, mixed with ADY, salt, and oil (of two types). The only thing about it that's fairly unusual is the ascorbic acid. I have a hard time finding any kind of flour that has that in it. You might try adding a touch of vinegar to replicate that. I'd say go with a good quality bread flour with a hydration rate of around 60%-62% (that's just a guess; there's a lot I don't know about your process with this dough and I can only guess based on what the finished pizza looks like in that picture), and the usual average rates on everything else; 2% salt, 1%-2% oil, maybe 0.%5 ADY, and maybe 1% malt extract, or no added sugar at all, as the flour you use will very likely already have some in it. Or it might have a lot of sugar in the mix; as that's quite a bit of rise in the bake.  I'd say it's not a same day dough; probably at least a 24 hour rise at RT, possibly with some CF in the regimen as well. But again, there might be a lot of sugar in the mix, so it's hard to say. There's only one way to figure it out, and that's to start with a simple recipe and gauge the results, one batch at a time. The one thing I do find extremely puzzling about the ingredient list is the sodium content...14%?? That sounds impossibly high by my reckoning. I don't know how anybody could possibly make a usable pizza dough with that much salt in the mix.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 11:49:40 AM by RHawthorne »
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Offline jsaras

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 01:05:15 PM »
It doesn't look like anything very exotic or complicated to me. It looks like it's just bread flour, mixed with ADY, salt, and oil (of two types). The only thing about it that's fairly unusual is the ascorbic acid. I have a hard time finding any kind of flour that has that in it. You might try adding a touch of vinegar to replicate that. I'd say go with a good quality bread flour with a hydration rate of around 60%-62% (that's just a guess; there's a lot I don't know about your process with this dough and I can only guess based on what the finished pizza looks like in that picture), and the usual average rates on everything else; 2% salt, 1%-2% oil, maybe 0.%5 ADY, and maybe 1% malt extract, or no added sugar at all, as the flour you use will very likely already have some in it. Or it might have a lot of sugar in the mix; as that's quite a bit of rise in the bake.  I'd say it's not a same day dough; probably at least a 24 hour rise at RT, possibly with some CF in the regimen as well. But again, there might be a lot of sugar in the mix, so it's hard to say. There's only one way to figure it out, and that's to start with a simple recipe and gauge the results, one batch at a time. The one thing I do find extremely puzzling about the ingredient list is the sodium content...14%?? That sounds impossibly high by my reckoning. I don't know how anybody could possibly make a usable pizza dough with that much salt in the mix.

The sodium content is % of RDV, not percent in a dough formula.  The weight of the salt is 330 mg in a serving whose TOTAL weight is 56 grams (and we do not know how much of that is water). 

Ascorbic acid is also known as Vitamin C, and it's likely in the flour that was used as a dough conditioner.
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #8 on: October 12, 2021, 01:14:08 PM »
The sodium content is % of RDV, not percent in a dough formula.  The weight of the salt is 330 mg in a serving whose TOTAL weight is 56 grams (and we do not know how much of that is water). 

Ascorbic acid is also known as Vitamin C, and it's likely in the flour that was used as a dough conditioner.
Excuse my ignorance, I should have realized that. Still, it's hard to imagine that a dough with only 2% or 3% salt content could represent that much RDV sodium, even if one were to eat the entire pizza in one sitting. And I know what the ascorbic acid. It's just something that I've rarely seen contained in any brand of flour. Yes, it could definitely be a component of a dough conditioner, and that's most likely what was used. Good catch.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2021, 01:34:55 PM »
To comply with the FDA's rules and regulations regarding ingredients statements, the ingredients are supposed to be listed by their weights, in descending order. So, that would mean that the Dough in the ingredients statement under consideration here would have to weigh less than everything in front of that term, including the yeast and Enzymes. The yeast (ADY) might be used in a fair amount if the dough is frozen, and that might allow more Enzymes but usually enzymes do not weigh much. But if the Dough is a powder like ingredient, it might not weigh much in total.

As for the Sunflower Oil, which is recited last in the statement, there can't be very much of it.

I might further note that the dextrin in the ingredient statement is a form of sugar.

As for the use of ascorbic acid in flours, that is quite common. Here is an example, for the General Mills Superlative flour:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

Peter

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2021, 01:43:16 PM »


I might further note that the dextrin in the ingredient statement is a form of sugar.


https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

Peter
Are you sure about that? Dextrin is a carbohydrate, yes, but I've never heard it identified as a sugar.
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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2021, 01:44:58 PM »

As for the use of ascorbic acid in flours, that is quite common. Here is an example, for the General Mills Superlative flour:

https://www.generalmillscf.com/services/productpdf.ashx?pid=53525000

Peter
I don't know if I'd call it "quite" common. It can be found here and there in professional foodservice products, but in anything available in a grocery store, I've never seen it even once.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2021, 02:35:12 PM »
Are you sure about that? Dextrin is a carbohydrate, yes, but I've never heard it identified as a sugar.
Randy.

You are correct that dextrin is a carbohydrate but it is broken down into sugar molecules by hydrolysis of the carbohydrate. The same sort of thing happens when the damaged starch in flour is converted to sugars by the action of the diastatic enzyme. Those sugars are used as food for the yeast and possibly to create residual sugars to contribute to final crust coloration.

Dextrins are a complicated matter, as this item makes clear:

https://www.bobsredmill.com/blog/healthy-living/what-is-dextrin/

Peter

 

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2021, 02:37:25 PM »
I don't know if I'd call it "quite" common. It can be found here and there in professional foodservice products, but in anything available in a grocery store, I've never seen it even once.
Randy,

I was speaking to the professional side of the flour business, which I assumed applies to the ingredients statement we have been discussing.

I agree with you that you are unlikely to see ascorbic acid in retail flours. I might add that when I was playing around with Papa John's clone doughs and saw that PJ used a flour with ascorbic acid (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58199#msg58199), on a few occasions I added some ascorbic acid to the retail flour that I was using. But I did not see a noticeable difference in the final products.

Peter

Offline samco05

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2021, 03:07:34 PM »
Can you provide more details about the product beyond the label?  Is it a retail refrigerated or frozen pizza dough? Who makes it? What are the prep instructions? Why do you want to replicate it?  Taste, texture, nutrition, other?
In my opinion, you can stay away from the dough conditioners and preservatives, that's the point of making it fresh, right?
One thing that stands out to me, is the serving/portion size is quite small at 2 oz. What size is the entire package?
You can also download the Pizza app., on android devices, which can get you in the ballpark. I don't know if it's on IOS.   
 

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 03:08:11 PM »
Randy,

I was speaking to the professional side of the flour business, which I assumed applies to the ingredients statement we have been discussing.

I agree with you that you are unlikely to see ascorbic acid in retail flours. I might add that when I was playing around with Papa John's clone doughs and saw that PJ used a flour with ascorbic acid (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg58199#msg58199), on a few occasions I added some ascorbic acid to the retail flour that I was using. But I did not see a noticeable difference in the final products.

Peter
sorry, I shouldíve clarified what I meant. Iím sure there are plenty of products made with ascorbic acid on the retail side, but as far as raw products such as flour, I canít say Iíve ever seen anything available to the general public. But even on the professional side, Iíve looked at many different brands and blends of flour, and I have hardly seen any with ascorbic acid in them. But it may be more common than I realize.
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Offline gbakay

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 04:26:43 PM »
The only thing about it that's fairly unusual is the ascorbic acid. I have a hard time finding any kind of flour that has that in it.

Here in Canada Robin Hood flour has ascorbic acid added to the flour.

https://www.robinhood.ca/En/Products/Best-For-Bread-Homestyle-White

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2021, 04:31:50 PM »
Quote
Here in Canada Robin Hood flour has ascorbic acid added to the flour.

https://www.robinhood.ca/En/Products/Best-For-Bread-Homestyle-White

Iíve heard of that one. Iím not aware of many American flours that have it.
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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2021, 09:59:24 PM »
Iíve heard of that one. Iím not aware of many American flours that have it.

Was must gonna mention that... the Robin Hood/Ardent Mills flours here in Canada use ascorbic acid. I know for sure that the Super Keynote I use has it, but I actually think that even Robin Hood AP flour has it.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: is it possible to decipher this label into a pizza dough recipe?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2021, 10:58:33 PM »
Was must gonna mention that... the Robin Hood/Ardent Mills flours here in Canada use ascorbic acid. I know for sure that the Super Keynote I use has it, but I actually think that even Robin Hood AP flour has it.
From what I've heard, it seems that thicker pizza styles like Sicilian and grandma benefit more from the ascorbic acid than thin crust styles. I have yet to produce a thick crust pizza that I'm at all happy with, but I keep my eyes open for flours with ascorbic acid, so that I can see how that works out.
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