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Author Topic: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf  (Read 551 times)

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Offline lennyk

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Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« on: October 11, 2021, 06:39:09 AM »
I do a 48hr cold ferment, sometime longer but I usually go for slightly overfermented.

I sometimes end up with very large bubbles at the edge of the dough ball which requires popping and results in flat are where it was on the cornicione ?

Any suggestions ?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2021, 07:55:05 AM »
Use the dough sooner, ie don't let it get that overfermented or do a gentle reball several days into cold fermentation.

Offline Monkeyboy

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2021, 09:26:45 AM »
I'm no expert, but I have had the same problem.  I have been slowly knocking down the % of yeast in my recipe.  My process is @10 hour room temp ferment, then ball -> then 24ish hour cold ferment.  Then room temp for 2-3 hours prior to baking.

Started at .3%, then .2%, then .1% - each time I knocked it down, I got less 'wild' air bubbles.

Example Margherita using more yeast vs Zucchini using less yeast -

Offline drainaps

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2021, 01:26:04 PM »

Sounds like your dough is over fermented. You donít say, but I assume youíre using instant yeast. Things to check:

1) Dough temperature when you finish mixing.
2) Do you leave your dough around at room temperature after mixing, and if so for how long.
3) % of yeast used.
4) Balling technique: Make sure you make balls before you cold ferment and make sure said balls have tension in them before any fermentation starts. Make sure surface of balls is not damaged by improper balling technique.

Taking action on the above will get you there. By the way if your dough is over fermented, it can be reused. Just ball it tightly again and go for a second round of fermentation, donít throw it away, but make sure your dough balls are tight.

Hope this helps.


I do a 48hr cold ferment, sometime longer but I usually go for slightly overfermented.

I sometimes end up with very large bubbles at the edge of the dough ball which requires popping and results in flat are where it was on the cornicione ?

Any suggestions ?

Offline 9slicePie

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2021, 01:35:26 PM »
1) Dough temperature when you finish mixing.

Can you elaborate on this, please?  Thanks.

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Offline drainaps

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2021, 02:28:28 PM »
Sure. Mixing techniques differ in how aggressively they build gluten. That aggressivity is translated through friction into heat and dough temperature increases as a consequence. Jeffrey Hamelman explains it in detail in his masterwork "Bread" (he calls it DDT = Desired Dough Temperature), compulsory reading for anyone speaking English and mixing doughs by the way  :)).

Heat buildup has (cutting some corners here) 2 major impacts on the dough. For one, it makes the dough tighter and more  difficult to shape. Second consequence is it puts enzymes and yeasts in turbo mode.

Yeast dosage in most "blind" dough recipes is calculated assuming that your dough temperature will stay in the "correct" temperature range.  If your dough ends up above 23-25 centigrade (73-77F), and especially if you end up at 30+ Centigrade (85+F), fermentation might go very fast and you might be unable to slow it down enough by placing your dough balls in the fridge, for the dough to stand a 24 hour cold fermentation. Basically you have too much yeast in your dough to keep things under control for the temperature range. After 24 hours, your dough will be over fermented (even if your recipe was calculated for a 24 hours cold fermentation).

Please keep in mind as well that from the moment you place your dough in the fridge at, letís say 4C (39F), to the moment the core of your dough balls is actually at that temperature, it will take time, it could be 45 minutes, especially in domestic fridges that have low-powered compressors. Keeping your dough in closed containers in the fridge (a wise practice to maintain hydration) will slow cooling further down.  It might be a good thing to only put the lid on those containers after 30 minutes of fridge time.  While the dough is not cold enough, fermentation continues at a rate above what it should be.

In commercial operations, and for the same recipe, yeast % is estimated on a daily basis and temperature meticulously controlled through the process, because they go hand in hand. You get one wrong, then things will start to go wrong unless you undertake corrective actions. Corrective actions will usually  be to shorten your bulk fermentation time (to avoid over fermenting) or, depending on the type of dough, putting dough in a freezer for a short period of time in order to reduce the core temperature as fast as possible (not recommended for all dough types though).

There  are a lot of assumptions in recipes that one has to be aware of. My honest recommendation is to always use PizApp and a thermometer, and keep your mixing time to a minimum especially when using planetary mixers (Kitchen Aids , Hobbarts, etc).

Hope this helps.



Can you elaborate on this, please?  Thanks.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2021, 02:37:56 PM by drainaps »

Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #6 on: October 12, 2021, 06:16:40 AM »
Yes, I am at .30% IDY cold ferment 48hrs, straight into fridge after mixing, balling.

I temper at room temp for 1-1.5hr before use.

I am gonna drop the idy a bit and see how it goes.

thanks
« Last Edit: October 12, 2021, 06:22:53 AM by lennyk »

Offline drainaps

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #7 on: October 12, 2021, 08:39:47 AM »
You don't say what's your dough temperature after you finish mixing or if you mix by hand or machine but it looks like indeed there's too much IDY in your dough.  For whatever it's worth, PizApp recommends the following:  I'm assuming 65% hydration in your dough, you haven't mentioned hydration yet.  I'm also assuming your fridge is at 4 Celsius (40 F) and your room at 23 Celsius (74 F):

1) 48 Hours -> 1.25 gr / kg (0.125%)
2) 24 Hours -> 2.25 gr / kg (0.225%)

Indeed it looks like you're over proofing your dough.  Too much yeast.

I strongly suggest you download PizzApp.  It doesn't take guessing entirely out of the process, but it's huge help.
May I also suggest that you measure your dough temperature after mixing, and that you cool your dough as fast as possible once you're done mixing.

Yes, I am at .30% IDY cold ferment 48hrs, straight into fridge after mixing, balling.

I temper at room temp for 1-1.5hr before use.

I am gonna drop the idy a bit and see how it goes.

thanks

Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2021, 07:13:53 AM »
hydration is 61%

my finish temp is usually around 80f
the fridge is a very old fridge which works really good compared to the energy efficient ones nowadays

I switched to a spiral(dlx before) this year and have had to make slight adjustments(all to better) as I do larger batches now and it mixes a lot more consistently.

as I said I my preference is towards slightly overfermented(tastewise)

gonna do a batch this afternoon for friday's batch.

Offline drainaps

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2021, 07:22:54 AM »
Please let us know how it goes. I'm curious. Thanks for your message.

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Offline PizzaGarage

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2021, 02:07:57 PM »
I use SAF (Red Label) at .375 for 72 at 35-36 degrees with excellent results, rarely get a bubble.  Off mixer temp typically at 78.  Balling immediately after mixing (hand or dough rounder) into dough box cross stacked for 45 minutes, then nested.  I would consider putting a temp gauge in the fridge maybe because its older temps are not as stable as you might suspect and would look at the age of your yeast for starters.

Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #11 on: October 14, 2021, 06:21:11 AM »
checked the temps on my fridge, it is around 2-3celsius
will see how the dough develops for tomorrow evening.

Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #12 on: October 16, 2021, 08:56:41 AM »
I dropped from .3 to .27 for wednesday's batch made yesterday(Friday)

Noticeable improvement with no large bubbles when taking ball out of the plastic bag on rim and lasted longer on the bench too.
Will drop to .22 for Monday's batch.

Offline drainaps

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #13 on: October 16, 2021, 09:11:30 AM »
Thanks for sharing. Looks indeed on the right track. I'd not reduce yeast yet, please read on.

In the first picture you've shared, your dough seems quite shiny. Was it very humid after the fermentation? If so, could you please share how do you keep it in the fridge? On a sealed plastic container? Filmed?

Friendly comment, you have to improve your balling, and make a real dough ball next time, well rounded, not flat . I'm aware dough balls will deflate after 24 hours in the fridge but it's a different shape if the ball is tight. It will help with gluten structure and with everything else. Plenty of videos on YouTube.

Hope this helps.

Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #14 on: October 16, 2021, 01:49:37 PM »
the shining dough is because I spray the plastic bags with some oil(Pam) before putting the balls in them.
the bagged balls are then kept on a sheet pan.
I think my balling is good but due to expansion and pressure against adjacent balls it results in the oblong shape,
also if a ball expanded and was in the bottom end of the bag it will have nowhere to expand so will have a straight edge along the bottom of the bag.

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Offline lennyk

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Re: Avoiding large bubbles on edge of dough ball during cf
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2021, 06:01:41 PM »
been a couple weeks of using the reduced IDY and it has certainly been an improvement
once properly tempered to room temp, the dough lasts longer outside and no difference.

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