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Author Topic: wetter doughs knead time?  (Read 309 times)

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Offline drimkunas

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wetter doughs knead time?
« on: October 16, 2021, 01:51:44 PM »
is there a general rule of thumb about hydration and knead time? I am having a hard time getting my 70% (Ken Forkish sourdough recipe) to become a smooth ball. Am I perhaps over kneading it? i've tried by hand as well as by kitchen aid mixer on medium for up to 8 minutes. it's always just not smooth and very difficult to handle. Any guidance?


Offline jsaras

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2021, 01:58:10 PM »
What flour are you using?  If it's 00 you're going to be in for a long haul.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2021, 02:47:01 PM »
FWIW, I've learnt that it's easy to make an 80% hydration dough in a KA.  Put everything in the bowl, run at first speed for 10-15 seconds (to mix it all together), and then at max for about 4 minutes, until the dough pulls well away from the bowl.  It's quite sticky at this point, but wet your hands or a dough scraper and get it on your working surface.

The it's time for a session of slap & fold, then some stretch & fold and dough shaping (every 10 minutes for 30-40 minutes).  You'll know when it takes shape and gets dry on the outside, you can probably use dry hands at the first stretch & fold if you did the slap & fold well.

Not sure this would work at 70% which might strain the KA..
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Offline drimkunas

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2021, 03:17:54 PM »
What flour are you using?  If it's 00 you're going to be in for a long haul.

sorry, that is relevant isn't it!  I'm using All Trumps. 3% salt. If I let it sit for a few minutes, it looks ok, but then as soon as I start mixing it gets rough looking and sticks to the bottom of the bowl. I've tried stretch and fold and it looks smooth for awhile but never really seems to develop and strength.

Offline drainaps

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2021, 03:49:44 PM »
A KA is unable to develop gluten in a 70% hydration dough in 8 minutes. There's an approach that works with all bread doughs, that French call bassinage.

Mix your dough with only part of the water, let's say 60% hydration for argument's sake and once gluten is developed (windowpane test) , start adding little by little the rest of the water. It takes some practice, especially with a KA but I'm sure you can find a video in YouTube. Avoid at all costs too much water in the bowl and the dough happily floating around.

Try also to give a couple of S+Fs to your dough to increase strength after you're done with the KA and before balling and storing in the fridge.

Make sure your yeast %  holds and allows you time for the further processing at room temperature. You don't want to create additional issues.

My honest advice would be that you get comfortable with making dough at 55% hydration before you attempt to make dough @ 70%. The increase in difficulty is very substantial, and the use of a planetary mixer doesn't facilitate things. Your pizzas will already be great a 55%.

Hope this helps.

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2021, 05:08:44 PM »
I mix 70 percent all the time. Looks like crap initially, come back to dough a few hours later and with a spatula I fold it a few times into a smooth mass.

Offline drimkunas

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2021, 10:17:05 AM »
A KA is unable to develop gluten in a 70% hydration dough in 8 minutes. There's an approach that works with all bread doughs, that French call bassinage.

Mix your dough with only part of the water, let's say 60% hydration for argument's sake and once gluten is developed (windowpane test) , start adding little by little the rest of the water. It takes some practice, especially with a KA but I'm sure you can find a video in YouTube. Avoid at all costs too much water in the bowl and the dough happily floating around.

Try also to give a couple of S+Fs to your dough to increase strength after you're done with the KA and before balling and storing in the fridge.

Make sure your yeast %  holds and allows you time for the further processing at room temperature. You don't want to create additional issues.

My honest advice would be that you get comfortable with making dough at 55% hydration before you attempt to make dough @ 70%. The increase in difficulty is very substantial, and the use of a planetary mixer doesn't facilitate things. Your pizzas will already be great a 55%.

Hope this helps.

That's very interesting, i have never come across that before. I'm going to try it next time. Re: 55% hydration, I'm not happy with the result of that at all. I've been normally hovering around 63% and it is fine, but not stellar. My oven gets to 550F and I have a steel and when I suffer through with the 70%, the lightness and large air holes in the cornicione are a delight. I just never get much strength though in the rest of the dough and often have tears when I'm stretching it out.

Offline billg

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Re: wetter doughs knead time?
« Reply #7 on: October 18, 2021, 06:32:53 PM »
is there a general rule of thumb about hydration and knead time? I am having a hard time getting my 70% (Ken Forkish sourdough recipe) to become a smooth ball. Am I perhaps over kneading it? i've tried by hand as well as by kitchen aid mixer on medium for up to 8 minutes. it's always just not smooth and very difficult to handle. Any guidance?



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