Essen1's NY-style pizza project

[Essen1]

Poolish is ready after 24 hrs...

Let's boogie. 

[jvp123]

Jeff,

Anytime.

I'm not sure if the finer "00" grind contributes to a light and airy crumb structure. It is simply a finer ground flour compared to other flours but maybe someone else knows if that's the case.

TG's Artisan has a malt content of 0.5%. With that said, I usually stick to 1% of added malt. Same goes for the sugar, but to be honest, I'm not sure why I still even throw sugar into the mix. Maybe out of habit.

I had great results without sugar, come to think of it. 

Yeah I was curious about the sugar in your formula - if it was needed since you were already getting browning from the 1% LDM.

And I didn't realize Tony's flour had added malt. I've always wondered if it's redundant to add more malt to already malted flours. I have been doing it for a long time, albeit at extremely low levels.

Ps.  Good luck with the poolish.  I think it adds some depth to the flavor profile.

[Essen1]

I've always wondered if it's redundant to add more malt to already malted flours. I have been doing it for a long time, albeit at extremely low levels.

In a home setting, no, I don't think it's redundant. It's all about the flour and how well the LDM works with it.

I suggest you play around with different LDM amounts or percentages and see what sticks. What works for me might not work for you. So keep experimenting until you get it right. But LDM is cheap and so is the Power flour, so no harm there.

Imho, the key to all this is what type of crust or style of pizza you'd like to achieve,...artisan, rustic, NY street, NY elite, classic Italian and so forth.



Poolish definitely adds some depth, texture, structure and character to the crust. Let's see how the final pies turn out. It's been awhile for me.

But the dough felt great and smelled good, as well. 75°F off the hook, 30 min bench rest then scaled. Four 340gr dough balls for NY Day,

As far as your quest for a lighter, more open and airy crumb structure is concerned, I'd ditch the AP flours and just go straight with the Power since it has an absorption rate of 65%, and then focus on the mixing and retardation times, as well as temperatures.

Imho, the key to all this is what type of crust or style of pizza you'd like to achieve,...artisan, rustic, NY street, NY elite, classic Italian and so forth.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Jeff, I'm with you on the light and airy. While I don't understand quite why, I seem to have lighter, airier bakes with GM Full Strength and All Trumps, and blends using them, than when I make dough that's predominantly 00 flour. But it may just be me. Razza, Mamas Too and Rosie's here in NY and NJ (write ups  have been on the board) make pies that are light and airy and quite wonderful. None uses 00, Razza using a blend of KAAP, whole wheat and an unspecified local flour ( BF level protein maybe) , Mamas Too uses AT, Rosies Sir Lancelot and WW.


Sorry for threadjack, Mike

[Essen1]

Jeff, I'm with you on the light and airy. While I don't understand quite why, I seem to have lighter, airier bakes with GM Full Strength and All Trumps, and blends using them, than when I make dough that's predominantly 00 flour. But it may just be me. Razza, Mamas Too and Rosie's here in NY and NJ (write ups  have been on the board) make pies that are light and airy and quite wonderful. None uses 00, Razza using a blend of KAAP, whole wheat and an unspecified local flour ( BF level protein maybe) , Mamas Too uses AT, Rosies Sir Lancelot and WW.


Sorry for threadjack, Mike

Bill,

A 00 does not mean a weaker flour or tougher, less airy crusts. It is simply a finer grind.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Thanks Mike..must be other factors for me then

[Essen1]

Thanks Mike..must be other factors for me then

Can you elaborate?

I’m curious as to what causes you to get a less airy crust with TG’s 00?

Are we talking about the same flour, though? 

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Nope...I don't have that flour.; I'm using GM Neapolitan...I dunno, just seems denser to me...though not sure that
's quite the right description..It's a texture thing I think .Heavier somehow. Plenty of air pockets but not the light crispness I get with say, All Trumps at a high hydration.. Hydration is probably the key here, right Mike? 

[foreplease]

Nope...I don't have that flour.; I'm using GM Neapolitan...I dunno, just seems denser to me...though not sure that
's quite the right description..It's a texture thing I think .Heavier somehow. Plenty of air pockets but not the light crispness I get with say, All Trumps at a high hydration.. Hydration is probably the key here, right Mike?

It works much the same way in soil. There are only 3 possible mineral componets to soil - sand, silt, and clay - each with their own range of particle size that helps define them. Beyond that we have air, water, and organic matter. That is all that is in any type of soil. Clay is the smallezt particle size — picture “00” flour. Sand is the largest - picture a coarse grind or maybe whole grain. Clay is the most compact and poorly drained because it is the most dense;the total volume of all of the air spaces in a given volume of clay will be a fraction of what they would be for the same volume of sand. Larger mineral particles (sand) give us fewer but larger pore spaces. It is easier to picture if you think of softballs, baseballs, and ping pong balls instead of sand, silt, and clay. Conversly, the surface area of all of the clay particles will far exceed that of the sand particles. This is important for growing things but not really relavent to the density and particle size example I am trying to make.


While soils are not leavened, their texture is partially determined by air and water occupying as much as 50% of the voulme. We can till, plow, aerate to manipulate the structure of the final mix. I believe it is much the same with the smalller “00” flour particle size. It can be manipulated into a wonderful pizza crust but if we examine a 5-gal pail full of “00” flour and compare it to a 5-gal pail of a coarser flour it will require more work/bigger changes to convert it to an airy light dough.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Tony, that's pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. So the apparent density I'm seeing in NP is not imagination or mishandling?. So maybe I should increase my hydration in 00 flours and add stretch and folds to make it happen. I see some testing in my near future.


And mud pies 

[foreplease]

Bill, I’m sure you have a better idea of what to do than I do. Mine was a made up example but I feel pretty sure of it. I think of a container of “00” as compacting more like baby powder than flour, dedpite feeling very soft. I look forward to seeing your experiments.

[Essen1]

Nope...I don't have that flour.; I'm using GM Neapolitan...I dunno, just seems denser to me...though not sure that
's quite the right description..It's a texture thing I think .Heavier somehow. Plenty of air pockets but not the light crispness I get with say, All Trumps at a high hydration.. Hydration is probably the key here, right Mike?

Bill,

I’m not familiar with the GM flour but I’m pretty sure that hydration plays a role. TG’s flour has never produced a somewhat dense crust. Your thoughts are interesting and I’m curious as to what you’ll find when you up your hydration. Keep us posted.

Tony,

That’s a pretty cool analogy! Never thought of it that way.

[jvp123]

Regarding 00 and density -- Tony's analogy makes sense to me.  I did always equate 00 with lightness, but I think that was due to the fact that it was used predominantly in NP pizza which I equate with being delicate.  Perhaps that's why stretch and folds seem to work well in NP pizza -> more air --> lightness?

As for you question regarding the type of pizza I am making, Mike ... I am attempting make a rustic neo-NY style pizza closer to coal oven than slice joint.  After our conversation, I am upping my hydration and LDM and trusting the HG flour.   

Thanks again for everyone's insight -- what a wonderful forum we have here! 

( and ps:  Sorry for getting a little sidetracked on your thread, Mike.)

[Essen1]

Regarding 00 and density -- Tony's analogy makes sense to me.  I did always equate 00 with lightness, but I think that was due to the fact that it was used predominantly in NP pizza which I equate with being delicate.  Perhaps that's why stretch and folds seem to work well in NP pizza -> more air --> lightness?

As for you question regarding the type of pizza I am making, Mike ... I am attempting make a rustic neo-NY style pizza closer to coal oven than slice joint.  After our conversation, I am upping my hydration and LDM and trusting the HG flour.   

Thanks again for everyone's insight -- what a wonderful forum we have here! 

( and ps:  Sorry for getting a little sidetracked on your thread, Mike.)

Can't wait to see what you come up with.

And no, you're not sidetracking this thread. It's always nice to have a lively convo/discussion on here, especially if it's of value to other members.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

That's great, Jeff. I guess our water bills will be going up

[foreplease]

Tony, that's pretty interesting and makes a lot of sense. So the apparent density I'm seeing in NP is not imagination or mishandling?. So maybe I should increase my hydration in 00 flours and add stretch and folds to make it happen. I see some testing in my near future.


And mud pies 

In thinking about this more today, if this were a soil physics problem we would try incorporating about 10% of a coarser material. We would distribute it as evenly as possible throughout the top 4” to 8” of the soil profile. It would get mechanically worked in such as roto-tilling. For pizza dough it would be mixing and kneading. The end result is the new larger particles, while still a minority part of the mix would, help prevent the smaller particles (clay or “00”) from packing together as tightly as they would if unammended. Now you have more porosity where, for dough, steam can work, gluten network can be more easily established. Still a theory but I think if you break up the 00 with something with a larger particle size and increase the hydration, then work that with S&F, autolyse—whatever it takes to take on that water—and bake it hot, I think you will have a lighter more airy crust. We should ask the DoughDoc to look in on this perhaps.


As a side note, water alone is not a cure all. In construction, water is often used to compact soil over which new concrete is to be poured. When used like that, water drives air out of the soil pore spaces; using lots of water packs the particles togehter. Think of walking on the damp sand along the ocean vs walking through the same sand 30’ inland. The difference with the dough is you are going to mix it up again after adding water.


I laughed at your mud pies comment 

[thezaman]

70% Hydro New York dough...

 

  Hi Mike, my NY pizza has been a struggle. I'm looking to your thread for guidance. can you help with a few questions on this formula. thhe sheet you are showing is for one dough ball. you show 3.15 grams of yeast. what type do you use. also my brevelle oven does only 12 inch pizza. what thickness factor are you using, or can you recommend a12 inch dough weight?
 Another question how long do you room ferment your dough?
 Thanks for any help you can give!! Looking forward to your NY bake today!!!

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Tony,  I often do  flour blends with 00   ( BF, HG and sometimes small amount of WW or spelt )and am happier with the lightness...I think your soil analogy, uh, holds water ( I apparently can't restrain myself) 

[Essen1]

 

  Hi Mike, my NY pizza has been a struggle. I'm looking to your thread for guidance. can you help with a few questions on this formula. thhe sheet you are showing is for one dough ball. you show 3.15 grams of yeast. what type do you use. also my brevelle oven does only 12 inch pizza. what thickness factor are you using, or can you recommend a12 inch dough weight?
 Another question how long do you room ferment your dough?
 Thanks for any help you can give!! Looking forward to your NY bake today!!!

The formula you referenced in your post is for two 625gr dough balls, actually.

I use commercial Fleischmann's IDY or SAF ADY, depending on how lazy I feel. 

Regarding the TF, I rarely go by that value, to be honest. Maybe somebody can figure it out.

Below's the same formula, except for the water value. I lowered it a bit since I don't know what kind of flour you're using. It's for two 12-inch dough balls, with a weight of 285gr, ea. which should give you a nicely pronounced cornicione/rim and a thin center.

I don't use RT ferments, only CF ferments, sometimes in bulk, sometimes already scaled and balled from the start. My usual fermentation time is 48 hours, depending on how the dough develops. Some of the doughs can even go 72 hours, but that's pushing it.

	Grams	Ounces
Flour  (100%)	334.71	11.81
Water (65%)	217.56	7.67
Yeast (0.5%)	1.67	0.06
Salt (2.5%)	8.37	0.30
Oil (2%)	6.69	0.24
Sugar (1%)	3.35	0.12
Other Malt (1%)	3.35	0.12
Single Ball	285	10.05
Dough TF = (0.0889)
Number Dough Balls = 2
Pizza Size = 12 inches

I just saw that the TF is already automatically included in the above formula but not on the print-out I posted as a pic earlier.

[norcoscia]

I just saw that the TF is already automatically included in the above formula but not on the print-out I posted as a pic earlier.

From your bud Norm 

PS. Sent you an email earlier...