Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 01:14:26 PM

Title: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 01:14:26 PM
Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted to the forum, but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.  It's based on lots of what I've learned here, and also based on member varasano's recipe as well (you can visit his page at http://www.think2020.com/jv/recipe.htm).

I'm a long-time native New Yorker, so rest assured that the observations I make in the article about NY pizza are authentic, not just what I read out of a book somewhere :)

Also, my page has a detailed introduction to New York pizza, as well as detailed step-by-step instructions for some of the more difficult steps in the recipe (like stretching dough with your hands).  Just about every step has an explanation as to why it's done that way and not some other way.  At the end is a "quick recipe" for people who just want to "cut to the chase" and get the recipe and directions with no explanations.

For now, my recipe is at http://tinyurl.com/dt6ne, but just in case that link ever goes down, I'll post it here as well (apologies if it's a bit long-winded).

INTRODUCTION
===========

True New York City pizza is a special experience, a concoction that is often imitated but rarely gotten right. There are lots of recipes on the Internet that claim to produce a “New York-Style Pizza,” but mostly these come nowhere close to resembling an actual New York pizza (for a variety of reasons).

There are really two types of authentic New York pizzas; I like to call them “street” pizzas and “elite” pizzas. A “street” pizza is typical of the myriad pizzerias that exist throughout New York (epitomized by the ubiquitous-yet-all-unrelated “Ray’s” which sit on seemingly every other street corner), where you can walk in and order inexpensive individual slices to stay or to go. These pizzas are characterized by a flexible, foldable crust that’s anywhere from ¼-to-½ inch thick; tomato sauce with some light spices; and a relatively thick layer of mozzarella cheese, cooked in a standard gas-fired commercial pizza oven.

“Elite” pizzas in New York can be found at only a handful of famous pizzeria restaurants that have been in existence for decades. At these legendary establishments, individual “pizza masters” have passed along a tradition of high-quality pizza. Lombardi’s, Patsy’s, John’s, Totonno’s, and Grimaldi’s are examples of these pizzerias (Lombardi’s, which opened in 1905, was the first pizzeria in the United States). An elite pizza is generally more expensive, and can only be bought as whole pies, rather than individual slices (the pie itself is cut into slices of course). The pizzas themselves are usually slightly thinner and crispier; use a higher-quality cheese such as fresh mozzarella or bocconcino, placed sparingly on the pizza; feature very lightly-spiced sauces made from quality fresh San Marzano tomatoes; and—most importantly—are cooked in ovens that are either wood-fired or coal-fired to achieve extremely high baking temperatures (700 to 800 degrees), resulting in a dark brown or black char to the crust that is extraordinarily delicious.

Which type of pizza is better? Although elite pizzas are almost always superb, there are many street pizzas that taste just as good, if not superior. In fact, a common New York pastime is arguing about which local neighbourhood pizzeria is the best. Conversely, I have tasted a few elite pizzas that were substandard. Yet some street pizzas are so bad that they barely qualify as pizza. Suffice to say, there are great examples out there of both elite and street pizza.

The following recipe will give you something between a street pizza and elite pizza--probably closer to street pizza (baking a true elite pizza is impossible unless you happen to have a wood-fired or coal-fired oven at home that goes to 700-800 degrees). As a native New Yorker, I can tell you that this recipe will give you a pizza that is close (or at least, as close as a home baker can get) to how a real New York pizza would look and taste. One thing’s for sure—it’ll be delicious no matter what it’s called.

YIELD: Two 16-inch authentic New York-style pizzas

TOOLS NEEDED
===========

-- 16” diameter pizza stone, or unglazed half-inch-thick quarry tiles (four 8” x 8” tiles arranged in a square is perfect), in lowest rack of oven *
-- pizza peel at least 16” wide (wooden pizza peels are generally better than aluminum)
-- two cookie tins (each large enough to comfortably hold 1 pound of rising dough)
-- pizza wheel or pizza cutter
-- electric stand mixer (kneading/mixing by hand is not recommended)

* If neither pizza stone nor quarry tiles are available, the pizzas can be made with a 16” pizza pan; see instructions following main recipe. A pizza peel is only needed if you have a pizza stone or quarry tiles. If using quarry tiles, make sure they are unglazed—glazed tiles have chemical coatings that are harmful to humans when used for cooking. Also, beware—quarry tiles of less than a half-inch thickness are almost certain to crack when subjected to the high heat of pizza baking.

TIME NEEDED
==========
Preparing dough: approximately 35-40 minutes
Baking pizza the next day: approximately 10 minutes (not including 1 hour oven pre-heat)


INGREDIENTS
==========
 
-- 2 pounds flour (best is a “high-gluten flour,” usually only available either online or in wholesale food supply stores. Here in Edmonton you can get some at Real Canadian Wholesaler on 149th Street and 111th Avenue. If you don’t have any high-gluten flour, use bread flour. If you don’t have any bread flour, use all-purpose flour)
-- 2½ cups cool tap water
-- 2½ tsp (or one package) instant yeast
-- 2 tsp fine sea salt
-- 1 Tbsp sugar
-- 3 Tbsp olive oil (not extra-virgin—use a good-quality normal or mild oil. I use “Filippo Berio” brand.)
-- cooking oil spray

DIRECTIONS TO PREPARE THE DOUGH
===========================

1. Combine water, yeast, sugar, and 2/3 of the flour (but not the salt) into mixer bowl. The water should be cool, although precision isn’t needed with regards to temperature. You do not have to pre-dissolve the yeast in the water.
Mix on lowest speed for 2 minutes, enough to blend the ingredients into a batter-like mixture.

2. Let the mixture rest 20 minutes (this long rest period is called an “autolyse,” which allows the flour to fully hydrate and the gluten to start developing).

3. Add the salt and olive oil, then add flour gradually while mixing on lowest speed for no more than 10 minutes or so. Near the end of that period, the dough will start grabbing whatever loose flour remains in the bowl and form into a solid ball; mix another 2 or 3 minutes at that stage, slowly adding just enough flour so that the dough ends up as a soft, smooth, slightly-moist-and-sticky ball.

(If it’s too wet and sticky and you come away with gobs of dough when your fingers touch it, you haven’t added enough flour. If it’s completely dry to the touch, you’ve added too much flour. The ideal texture is smooth and satiny, like a baby’s bottom).

4. Remove dough from mixer and divide into two equal balls. Spray the inside of your two metal cookie tins with cooking spray, place balls in the tins, and then leave closed tins inside the refrigerator for at least 24-48 hours (a 4-6 day rise is ideal, to allow fermentation for fullest taste; however, dough can be used after a 24-hour rise with minimally acceptable taste results).

DIRECTIONS TO BAKE THE PIZZA
=======================

1. When ready to prepare pizza, remove tins from fridge (or only one tin, if making only one pizza) and leave on countertop at room temperature for about 1-2 hours. A half-hour after removing the tins from the fridge, start to pre-heat oven (with pizza stone or unglazed quarry tiles on lowest rack) to highest possible temperature (usually 550 degrees). Oven should pre-heat at least 45 minutes to allow stone/tiles to fully heat—although a full hour’s pre-heat is preferred.

2. Dust pizza peel with flour, then remove dough from tin and place on peel. Lightly dust dough all over with flour from the peel so it’s not wet or sticking—flip it over to dust both sides.

3. Gently punch down dough into a flat circle about an inch high and about 8 inches in diameter (don’t hit the dough….just push down with your palm). As you do this, try to smooth out any “faults” or cracks in the dough (on both sides) so that the surface on both sides is as smooth and as unbroken as possible.

4. Carefully stretch it into a thin disk approximately 16 inches in diameter. This might take some practice before you’re comfortable with the technique, but here’s how to do it:

-- Hold your clenched fists together vertically out in front of you (thumbs on top and pinky fingers on the bottom).
-- Lift your thumbs a bit, enough so that you can get your index finger knuckles underneath the edge of the dough closest to you; then grasp the top of the dough with your thumbs and lift the dough straight up off the peel.
-- The dough should now be draped forwards and downwards from your fists, resting mostly on your index fingers, with your thumbs only gripping the outer inch or so of dough to keep it from slipping out of your hands. The bulk of the dough will immediately begin to droop from your hands due to gravity; rotate the dough smoothly and quickly with your fists so that the dough droops evenly on all sides.
-- Your first few times doing this, it might be hard to guesstimate when to lay the dough back down (i.e. when it’s 16 inches in diameter). For your first few tries, your best bet is to underestimate; you can always pick the dough up again if you lay the dough down and find that it hasn’t stretched enough. Stretching the dough some more is a lot easier than trying to make an overstretched dough smaller.

This drooping/stretching process should only take about 10-15 seconds or so; the dough should stretch well, and should not be too elastic (i.e. shouldn’t tend to spring back to its previous shape). NEVER use a rolling pin under ANY circumstances!!! Using a rolling pin will crush the gluten you worked so hard to develop, and will result in a flat, non-crumby, hard-to-chew pizza. Only use your hands—the key word here is “gentle.” If you find the dough so tough that it won’t extend without the use of a rolling pin, then you haven’t prepared the dough properly.

5. Once the 16” disk has been formed, lay the dough back onto the peel—you might need to do some minor adjustments and/or hand-stretching on the peel to make it perfectly circular again. By the time you’ve stretched out a disk approximately 16” in diameter, the dough should be relatively thin, perhaps even almost paper thin in places (usually in the middle). If you can keep the outer inch of the pizza relatively thicker, that will give the final pizza a traditional New York look—puffy outer edge, flat inner crust.

6. Slide bare pizza dough from pizza peel onto stone/tiles in oven with quick jerking movements (see Notes at the end for a hint on what to do if your dough is sticking to the peel) and bake for no more than a minute or so (just long enough to let the bottom of the crust sear and harden slightly, so you can easily get under it and pull it back out with the pizza peel). During this “pre-bake” period, watch carefully with a fork handy, and prick any ballooning air bubbles in the dough.

7. Remove pizza with peel and apply sauce, cheese, and toppings; then slide pizza carefully back onto stone/tiles in oven (try not to tilt the pizza too much as it goes back into the oven, or you’ll be cleaning toppings and cheese out of your oven for the rest of the weekend).

8. Bake pizza until cheese starts to melt a bit (usually about 2 or 3 minutes), then turn oven to “broil” and use the top element if possible (see tip below). The pizza is done when the cheese is fully melted and bubbling (perhaps even just starting to show signs of browning) and the outer edge of the crust has turned golden brown. This is where the “art” of pizza-making comes in. All ovens differ—my pizzas are usually done about three or four minutes after I turn to broil. The first couple of times you bake pizza, if it seems to be taking forever to bake the top of the pizza, you might want check the bottom of the crust to make sure it’s not burning or getting too crispy. Ideally, the bottom crust should become brown, or even slightly blackened with char, just before the cheese starts to brown and burn.

TIP: if you want a burnt, darker, crispy crust, bake the pizza a little longer (baking the bottom of the pizza) before switching the oven to top-down “broil” (which bakes the top of the pizza). If you want a softer, more flexible crust, don’t bake the pizza very long before switching to “broil.”

9. Remove pizza, let cool about three or four minutes (it’ll be really hot), then cut into 8 slices using pizza wheel or cutter, and enjoy! If making two pizzas, prepare second pizza while oven is still hot. If you’re only making one pizza and you realize you won’t be using the second dough for a while, you can freeze it and then thaw when ready to use; dough will generally be good in the freezer for a couple of months.


ALTERNATIVE PREPARATION DIRECTIONS (for those who have just a pizza pan—no pizza peel or pizza stone)
=============================================================================

Follow all steps in above recipe, with the following exceptions:

1. Preheat oven to 475 degrees, not 550.
2. After dough is removed from fridge and warmed at room temperature for an hour or so, prepare 16” pizza disk on floured surface, then place disk into 16” pizza pan; apply sauce, cheese, toppings, then place pan onto middle rack of oven. Bake until cheese is melted and just starting to show signs of browning, then remove, cut into slices, and serve.


NOTES
=====

*** On Cheese ***
The best cheese to use is fresh bocconcino mozzarella balls. This cheese is very moist; it comes in a clear plastic bag, marinating in its own moisture. It comes in small, medium, and large sizes—I’ve found that two large balls of cheese should be enough for two pizzas. The cheese should be sliced (not shredded like normal mozzarella) and placed strategically around the pie. Important Note: you should slice the bocconcino and leave it to dry on some paper towels for a few hours before using it, or else the cheese will become almost completely liquid on the pizza as it bakes, due to its high moisture content.

If you have a favourite shredded mozza brand, feel free to use that. I personally like Lucerne’s mozzarella pizza cheese in the red ziplock bag. (Feel free to experiment with other flavours of cheese, bearing in mind that a true NY pizzeria typically uses only mozzarella).

*** On Sauce ***
An excellent sauce can be made by buying a can of Escalon’s “6-in-1” brand All-Purpose Ground Tomatoes from the Italian Market Centre, running the contents through a blender for a few seconds to smooth it out, and then mixing in table salt, olive oil, a bit of sugar, and pizza seasoning to taste before putting it on the pizza (the Italian Market Centre and WalMart sell a very good pizza spice called “Loretta’s Pizza Seasoning,” or you can get similar pizza seasoning from your local dollar store). One can of 6-in-1 will yield enough sauce for at least three pizzas. If you don’t have access to 6-in-1, you can simply use crushed San Marzano or plum tomatoes as a base for your salt, oil, sugar, and spices, but not any other types of tomatoes; regular North American tomatoes won’t do.

Note that the sauce should NOT be pre-cooked under any circumstances; just spoon it directly onto the dough before baking. It’ll cook plenty when it’s on the pizza in a 550-degree oven; there’s no need to cook it twice, you’ll lose all the flavour that way.

You can use whatever toppings you like, but be aware that although some New Yorkers like traditional toppings such as pepperoni, mushrooms, etc., a true classic New York pizza uses just sauce and cheese. Outlandish toppings like ham or pineapple or bacon are completely gauche on a real New York pizza. Also, be aware that the more toppings you put on, the slower the pizza will bake in the oven. This recipe assumes the use of just sauce and cheese; you may need to experiment with your prep and bake times if you use other toppings.

*** On Oven Heat ***
In baking this type of pizza, the key is heat. The hotter the stones get, the better. The best pizza cooks at 700-800 degrees, but of course home ovens can’t readily approach that temperature. However, there are some tricks you can do to get your oven to heat your stones even higher than normal. One trick is to wait until the stones have preheated fully, then simply open the oven door and let the hot air out. The oven sensor should then detect a lowered temperature, and kick in again. The stones, of course, remain pretty much at the same temperature as before, and will continue to get hotter once the heating coil kicks in again. Repeat this procedure a couple of times, and the stones should rise well above 550 degrees (although still not to 700-800 degrees).

*** On Sliding Pizza From The Peel To The Oven ***
Here’s a neat trick that will help prevent the dough from sticking to the peel if you’re having problems with that. When you’re ready to slide the pizza off the peel into the oven for the first time, lift the edge of the pizza closest to the peel handle slightly, blow under the pizza toward the middle of the pie, then drop the edge back down. This will create an air bubble underneath the pizza. Now when you try to slide the pizza off the peel, it will slide quickly and easily. Alternatively, of course, you could just put more flour on the pizza peel (remember, it should be at least lightly-floured to begin with).


Enjoy!
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2005, 01:40:54 PM
Dave,

That's perfect. Thank you very much. The clear and well written instructions will be very helpful for those who decide to try your recipes.

My standard NY style is the 16-inch, so your recipe is just right for me. However, since some of our members may not be able to handle that size, would you mind if I converted your recipe to baker's percents to allow downsizing (or upsizing) your recipe?

Thanks again.

Peter

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 01:42:24 PM
Quote
My standard NY style is the 16-inch, so your recipe is just right for me. However, since some of our members may not be able to handle that size, would you mind if I converted your recipe to baker's percents to allow downsizing (or upsizing) your recipe?

Not at all, Peter...feel free.  But of course (to any such members who might read this) it's a well-known fact that anything smaller than 16 inches isn't a *real* NY pizza ;) hehe

Thanks for the complimentary review.  It took me quite a while to put together, so I hope it's of some use.

Cheers,
Dave

p.s. It's quite possible I may continue to update the page, so I encourage interested readers to check back (I'll put a "last updated" date on the page)...in particular, I'd like to get some pictures posted once I get my new digital camera within the next couple of weeks (my old camera broke not too long ago).
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2005, 02:04:09 PM
Dave,

Thanks. I will start with the 16-inch, based on using the KASL (King Arthur Sir Lancelot) flour, which is one of the favorites of our members for the NY style.

I noticed that your basic recipe is quite close to the one you posted at the Lehmann thread (Reply # 60, at page 4) some time ago. That was the recipe we came to refer to as Canadave's "Lehmann-inspired" recipe (it's also referenced in the Lehmann Roadmap). The main difference in the most recent recipe seems to be the preparation of the dough, specifically, to incorporate an autolyse and other techniques that member Varasano uses. Is that basically correct?

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 02:08:24 PM
I believe that is basically correct, yes.  The main benefit of the link I just posted, in my mind, is the background of NY pizza that's included, as well as more detailed instructions.

If I recall correctly, I think the amount of ingredients in my two recipes is also a bit different from one another.  I'll have to have another look.

Thanks,
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: PizzaBrasil on November 29, 2005, 02:09:36 PM
Canadave:

Thanks by your recipe.
The process that you use is too similar to I do.
I had just learned from this site and I use the Varasano experience too.
Since I do not know how much either in volume or weight 2 ½ cups mean, I am not sure that we are using exactly the same quantities (I will wait by the Petezza equations of your recipe. Thanks Petezza. As always).
However I could say that I use 63% of hydration and I am almost sure that ours recipes are too similar.
Well, I am happy to have a brick oven (Pompeii – 42 inches dia) and my mistakes are hidden by this.  *-)
The main difference (if it is at all) is the kneading process, I am almost not kneading the dough, just folding and resting it, like I have posted:

“The lasts attempts were the best results so far (both dough types) with very good oven spring and an open and airy crust and crumb and adequate crust color even without any sugar/milk in the dough.
The dough was made in the usual fashion (using autolyse). The main difference at this time was that the dough was almost not mixed, just stirred by hand with a wood spoon a couple of minutes (after the autolyse process was finished) until the dough do not to stick to the bowl.
When separated from the bowl the dough was placed on a floured counter and gently flattened to a near of a circle (maintaining the most of the air in it) and folded taking the sides to the center, flattened against and folded from top and bottom to the center as well.
The dough rested by approximately 25 minutes and the folded was repeated. Rested and folded again by the third time.
The dough was wet and sticking when first placed on counter, and seems excellent at the end of the process.
This is a technique that Dan Lepard uses for bread.
Finally, the dough rested by 10-15 minutes, divided and retarded 24 hours in the refrigerator.”

I would like to much ear about your opinion and/or results about this technique.
The final baking is like always 11/2 to 2 minutes at 700F directly on the hearth.
This recipe is too nice! And so it is the Patsy´s Varasano recipe too!
I like the sauce as prepared by Varasano.
My family prefers the sauce pre cooked.

Luis
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 02:10:31 PM
OK, I just had another look :)  Yes, the recipes are similar, but there are some subtle differences in the amount of ingredients, and also some preparation differences.  Definitely I would recommend this latest version over the version in the Lehmann thread.

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 02:15:22 PM
Luis,

Sorry about the lack of volume measurements for the ingredients...Peter will, as always, be on the ball with that :)

Yours sounds like an interesting technique.  I must confess that I'm unsure how you achieve a good crumb without any real kneading.  Mind you, it does sound like your oven would make just about any pizza recipe taste excellent ;)  I'm sure we could just throw some flour and water on it, and it'd be fine.

I haven't checked...have you posted your exact recipe procedure on this forum yet?

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2005, 07:25:48 PM
This is the formulation I have come up with for Canadave's NY style recipe for the 16-inch size, using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot flour (KASL):

Canadave's NY Style Dough Recipe (16-inch)
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 16 oz. (453.6 g.), 3 3/4 c.
64.1%, Water (tap, cool), 10.25 oz. (290.7 g.), 1 1/4 c.
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 1 1/4 t.
1.31%, Fine sea salt, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 t.
1.32%, Sugar, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 1/2 t.
4.63%, Oil, 0.74 oz. (21 g.), 1 1/2 T.
Total dough weight = 27.54 oz. (780.8 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.137

It should be noted that the way I converted the flour to cups was to weigh out the flour first (on my digital scale), then to spoon the flour into measuring cups/spoons, leveling off each measure with the flat edge of a knife. The same approach should be used to practice the recipe, that is, spoon out flour from the flour bag into measuring cups/spoons and levelling each measure. I follow a similar practice for measuring out/leveling volumes of yeast, salt, and sugar.

If someone desires a formulation for another size, the baker's percents can be used to downsize or upsize the above formulation. I can help with the exercise if requested.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 09:51:35 PM
Thanks Peter, I knew you'd come through with those :)

For what it's worth, based on my experimentation, my personal feeling is that this type of exacting precision isn't really necessary when making the dough.  I basically rough it out (I just have a crummy analog weigh scale from WalMart), and I can't detect any taste differences in the various doughs that have emerged.  The great thing about this recipe is that as far as the flour and water are concerned, exact measurements don't really need to be taken, because the final dough (before it goes into the metal tins) is a result of touch and texture, not ingredient measurement--you add flour until it feels right, not until you reach a number.  In other words, the answer to "when is the dough correctly formulated" is more a question of touching it with your fingers rather than hitting a number on the dot.  You might end up with slightly more or less of the dough with this method, but the amount of differential won't be significant enough to notice.

However, for those who like following such precise measurements, this is quite helpful I'm sure, and I appreciate your efforts in any event.

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 29, 2005, 10:56:23 PM
Dave,

I agree with everything you say about mathematical precision. In the real world, it is unattainable. However, I believe there are benefits to be gained from using an analytical approach.

First, when I see what the baker's percents are, I can usually tell what the finished pizza will be like. In fact, when I saw how much dough was involved in your recipe for the 16-inch, I concluded that the finished pizza would quite likely be similar to a NY style pizza that I recently made based on a recipe from the pizza cookbook, Pizza, by Morgan/Gemignani. If you look at Reply #134 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,524.msg18820.html#msg18820, you might see some of those similarities, even though there are also some differences between the two recipes. I did not list the baker's percents in that post because of the newness of the book, but I did calculate the baker's percents and used them to make a 16-inch size pizza rather than the 12-inch size called for in the recipe. That allowed me to compare the pizza with the typical 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizzas I make.

Second, I have discovered that when baker's percents are known, the recipe is opened up to many more people to try. A recipe can be scaled up or down and put within the reach of people who otherwise might not try the recipe because they are not equipped to make the particular size of pizza called for in the recipe. I give credit to baker's percents for the popularity of the Lehmann NY style dough recipe. Using baker's percents, I and others have posted recipes for pizza sizes ranging from 9" all the way up to 18", all with similar finished pizza characteristics. Several members, including me, have even come up with spreadsheets to be able to do the downscaling and upscaling quickly. Since spreadsheets are based on mathematical precision, without any reasoning capability, what you will get as an output is something rather sterile--like what I posted earlier as a recipe. In the real world, I, like anyone else, have to make the adjustments to get the recipe to really work. That is where the touch and feel come in that you talked about in your last post. It's just as important to report on the adjustments as on the recipe itself.

Peter

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on November 29, 2005, 11:23:05 PM
Peter,

All very good points :)

Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: PizzaBrasil on November 30, 2005, 12:57:32 PM
Canadave:

I was surprised too by the excellent (in my point of view) results obtained without (almost) kneading.
However they were there, with similar results either NY or VPN (Varasano). Repeatedly consistent results in the last opportunities.
I only know the basis (six months of real experience, it is not a lot) and I am sure that the brick oven has big contribution to transform any kind of flour, yeast and water in a tasting pizza.
In fact, it is possible that the best pizza that I bake do not pass any test by you or any other ‘pizzaiolo’ in this site.
Is the lack of opportunities of share your flour, muzz and tomatoes brand, that impels me to write here, in hope to have back your experiences and increase my knowledge (and the pizza taste, of course)  ;-p
I will be happy if anyone of you could give a try to this un-kneading method and return back your experiences.
However I classified my results by comparing with the old ones and by remembering the lot of pictures in this site. The last ones were the better.
Otherwise, I agree with you and Petezza about feeling versus analytical approach.
I am reading this site a long time ago, too much before I built the oven. And I am an engineer, too. Consequently, I follow the baker´s percents as nearly as I can.
All the used recipes are scaled in 2 to 6 pizza dough sizes (280 to 1700g) to easily prepare the exact quantity that could be needed.
The oven temperature is always registered and graphics are computer filed.
Normally, when using the recipes with baker´s percents I do not need to change it by feeling (when changed, it is a little change, and I do not take note of it).
And when looking at baker´s percents in a recipe I could know if this dough could turn good.
I agree with Petezza that the introduction of baker´s percents make easy to open a pizza recipe to a lot of people to treat it. I feel that without this tables/spreadsheets my learning curve could had been more difficult to follow.
Could be possible that this next weekend I will try your recipe with the Petezza baker´s percents (that came as fast as usual, thanks Petezza) and I will post the results.
Thanks you both again
Luis
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Wallman on December 01, 2005, 11:58:09 PM
Dave,
How important is the autolyse stage? I have KASL flour which is high in gluten, so what do you think about skiping that step?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 02, 2005, 04:00:12 AM
Wallman,

Well, I'm sure Peter or someone else will be happy to weigh in with the science of the autolyse and its usefulness/necessity.  Personally, I just go by the taste results I get.  To me, autolysed dough tastes better than non-autolysed.  If you skip the autolyse, your dough won't be ruined, if that's what you're asking :)  But I personally would recommend the autolyse period, as it seems to make a difference--although to what degree, I'm not quite sure.

The big thing that I would say MUST be done is the long rise in the refrigerator.  There's a dramatic taste difference in dough I've made that's risen for 1 hour, 24 hours, 48 hours, 72 hours, 4 days, and 5 days.  I've tried all those rise periods in the fridge.  It's only after at least the 3rd day that the dough's flavour really starts to shine--and I'm pretty sure it's even better after the 4 or 5 day rise.

Cheers,
Dave

Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Wallman on December 02, 2005, 06:14:20 AM
Thanks.   I just finished making dough for 6 pizza's for a party tomorrow night but I used Pete's recipe.  Next week I'll give your recipe a try and make the dough earlier in the week.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2005, 10:38:51 AM
My personal view on autolyse is simply to try it and see if you like the results. There are no absolutes in pizza making. We don't all like the same things. I have tried autolyse with Lehmann doughs on several occasions and found that I liked it for doughs that used natural preferments but less so for those that didn't. I have no good explanation for the difference other than to say that using a natural preferment seems to produce a very nice crumb that is both elastic and springy without being bready. But to know what specific role the autolyse played in the final results, I would have to make a lot more pizza doughs to see if there is a detectible pattern.

I am always on the lookout for a new NY style dough recipe to compare with the Lehmann dough recipe. So, when I find one, like Canadave's recently posted recipe, I tend to follow the recipe as exactly as I can. What I look for when I do that is the character and nature of the finished crust, that is, its texture and color, and the tightness and openness of the crumb. I pay a lot less attention to whether the crust is too sweet or too salty, or too soft, since I know that I can change those parameters the next time I try the recipe. Similarly, autolyse can stay or go based on the results. And if I want a thinner or thicker dough, I know how to change that too.

At his point, just from looking at Canadave's formulation from a baker's percent standpoint, I know that the crust will be thicker than the ones I usually make (based on the weight of the dough for the size of pizza) and it will have a softer and more tender crust and crumb (because of the amount of oil used). Because of the high hydration (a bit over 64%), and assuming that the dough is not overkneaded and the dressed pizza is baked as Canadave has instructed, there should be good oven spring. What I would be looking for is the effects of the autolyse, that is, whether it contributes to a tight, bready texture or a more open and airy one. I would not want to rush the dough, however. As Canadave suggests, the dough should be given as long a fermentation as possible without having the dough overferment and become difficult to handle. In this vein, it may be useful to note that Canadave is in Canada, where it is quite cold. That alone can slow down the rate of fermentation and prolong the useful life of the dough. Even here in Texas, where it has been getting cooler, I am noticing that my doughs are cooler than normal. At some point, I will most likelly start using warmer water and/or increase the amount of yeast a bit to compensate.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 02, 2005, 11:59:30 AM
And when Pete says "it's cold in Canada," he ain't kidding--it was something like -27C with the windchill last night!  :o

Oh, and we're at altitude here in Edmonton--half-mile up.  Not sure if that would throw anything off....
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 02, 2005, 12:42:23 PM
Dave,

With much higher home heating costs on the way, many people will be reacting by lowering the thermostat by a few to several degrees. That will have an effect on dough temperature unless steps are taken to compensate, like using warmer water and/or more yeast (or using longer counter warmup times). My room temperature is down about 15 degrees F since summer, and my refrigerator compartment is running about 8-10 degrees F cooler since summer.

As to potential adjustments because of altitude, if memory serves me correct, earlier this year you posted that you did not experience problems with altitude in making pizza doughs and that you found no need to adjust recipes because of altitude. Depending on which experts you listen to, the altitude cutoff range that is most often mentioned as calling for recipe adjustments is around 3500-5000 feet. Edmonton, at half a mile elevation, would be below that threshhold. However, as recently pointed out by our esteemed member DINKS, a baker by training, if altitude is a problem, then the yeast should be cut back about 10-12%, the hydration should be reduced a bit (by adjustment of the flour/water ratio), and high-gluten flour should be used (or the flour should be supplemented by vital wheat gluten). I personally don't see any need to make any of these adjustments at this point unless someone is operating at really high altitudes. Cooler temperatures may also make yeast adjustment unnecessary.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: pyegal on December 09, 2005, 09:20:10 PM
Hello, long time no post - it's cold again in the South, so I cranked up the home oven today and made Canadave's NY Style recipe using the formulation put forth by friend Pete-zza.

I forgot the autolyse, so I gave it a rest midstream of adding most of the flour - 15 minutes rest.

As I am still a wimpette when it comes to stretching dough out to 16" pies, I made two 12" pies with Pete-zza's formula that uses 3 3/4 cups flour. I'm still in the habit of adding some vital wheat gluten when I make pizza because I haven't found a convenient source for high gluten flour.

My sauce was uncooked, but thawed from frozen and a little watery. Next I will try a sauce with a couple of tablespoons of tomato paste added to see if it can thaw out just a little bit thicker.

This baking day I par-baked the crusts (on parchment, on oven tiles) for about 2 1/2 minutes, then removed them, added sauce, cheese, and toppings. I then put the pizza back onto the tiles sans the parchment paper. This method worked for me until one pie got away from me at the very back of the oven. I fished it out with tongs and retrieved it with only a little pinch of dough lost in the rescue.

I took two pies to the hair salon that I frequent and they seemed pleased at the surprise lunch.

Here is a pic of the sausage and mushroom; the other pizza was pepperoni.

(http://pic5.picturetrail.com/VOL93/969683/3470095/121334392.jpg)
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 09, 2005, 09:43:22 PM
Teresa,

Welcome back and nice job with the pizzas. I am looking forward to trying Dave's recipe myself.

One of the nice things about the dough for a 16-inch is that it just right for making two 12-inch pizzas. That way, you can make them both different.

You didn't indicate how you liked the pizzas. Can you comment on your observations and reactions to the pizzas, in terms of texture, crust flavor, crumb, etc.? I speculated that the crust would be thicker than the Lehmann crust, and looking at your photo that seems to be the case.

FWIW, you might want to read the following thread if you are interested in trying to find a source of the KASL in NC: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1907.0.html. Since you were last at the site we have been locating sources of the flour for many of our members around the country who don't mind buying 50-lb. bags of the flour. In many instances, the price per pound drops precipitously from what KA charges for shipping from Vermont.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: pyegal on December 09, 2005, 11:39:50 PM
Hi Peter!

Since I only cut a couple of very thin samples for myself from these two pizzas today, I don't have too much for a basis of comparison. The crust tasted fine to me, but I was more concerned that my sauce was watery. I used baby bella mushrooms which I've discovered I like better than the white button fresh mushrooms.

I did try something else new: I put my oven tiles on the top oven rack so the pizza cooked in the upper third
of the 500 degree oven. I thought it might cook faster or get browner on the crust rim, but I can't say that I
noticed too much difference.

The main change in my technique was the pre or par-baking of the crust which really helps the transfer from
peel to oven tiles so much easier. I did have a large bubble on the pepperoni crust that kept trying to inflate, so
I pricked it with a knife.

I actually think I prefer the texture of the Lehmann crust. I remember more of a crispness as you first bite into
the crust with that recipe. After reading another post, I was reminded of how I liked the ease and quickness when making the crust in a food processor, so I'm planning to make another pizza this weekend.

My crusts today had only a 24 hour rest in the fridge which wasn't very long by Canadave's standards. I should try the recipe again some time and give it a longer stay in the fridge.

This crust recipe was very easy to work with, used all the 3 3/4 cup flour, needed very little extra flour as the dough was not overly sticky. Mixed it in my Kitchen Aid mixer, kneaded briefly by hand, then into greased (spray) zip bags and into the fridge. Easy to form the skin also.

Given the various recipes I've tried from the posts here on this forum, I must report that all have tasted fine. But my preference is still the Lehmann with or without using a bit of my sourdough starter.

I will admit to recently making an impromptu "calzone" when a pizza flopped off the peel and onto the tiles in a heap! Ha! So I just folded that sucker over to make a half-moon "pizza" otherwise known as a calzone!

Now, onward and upward to make my crusts thinner and larger! and find a sauce recipe that survives freezing in better shape! Thanks for your encouragement, Peter.

Teresa

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 11, 2005, 06:47:20 PM
Teresa,

Thanks for being brave enough to try my recipe :)

I think the relatively short rise of only 24 hours, combined with the lack of autolyse, probably made a rather significant difference in the crust I'm afraid, and may explain your observations.

I also highly, highly encourage you to attempt the 16-inch pizza ;)  Don't let the stretching procedure scare you off--I think it's well-explained in my documentation (if I do say so myself), and besides, if a klutz like myself can accomplish it, believe me, you can too :)  Plus, it's not all that much harder than stretching for a 12-inch pizza.



Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Wallman on December 11, 2005, 08:09:45 PM
Dave,
I tried your recipe this weekend. It worked out pretty well. I made the dough Thursday night and made the pizzas about 1:30 PM on Saturday. I found that the dough was pretty wet, I had to add a some KASL flour turning the mixing stage -- probably a 1/4 cup.  This could be due to a fairly inaccurate scale (just a cheap diet scale -- I'm hoping for better one for X-mas!)  The dough did taste very good. I rose a bit more than Pete's Tom L. dough and there was nice crumb. Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures. The pizza was very good cold, I've eaten it for the last four meals!  Thanks for the good instructions and tips!
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 12, 2005, 01:01:54 AM
Wallman,

You're welcome...glad the instructions were helpful and not an obstacle.

When you say you had to add about 1/4 cup of KASL during the mixing stage, do you mean more than the normal amount of flour one might expect to be added?  I'm just a little confused as to what you mean here, because the instructions call for only 2/3 of the 2 lbs. of flour to be used right off the bat....then, during mixing, the rest of the flour is added (and might very well add up to about 1/4 cup).  If you're saying you did that, and then found you had to add another 1/4 cup, that's strange...the proportions have worked dead on for me :)

You mention a 48-hour rise.  That probably works better than Teresa's 24-hour rise, but I cannot overemphasize the taste difference that I think you'll all experience if you let the dough rise for AT LEAST four days.  I find 4-6 days as being the optimum rise time.

You liked the cold pizza eh? :)  I do too.  I reheated some of mine the last time, and it was just about as heavenly as it gets--liked it much better than right out of the oven.  Every good pizza I ever had in NYC was the same way, so I'm happy with that, as you might imagine.

Cheers,
Dave

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Wallman on December 12, 2005, 05:50:35 AM
Dave,
I added the extra flour at the end, I guess I should have said kneeding rather than mixing.  The dough was still sticky until I added a more flour.  Still it was easy to work with after rising in the fridge.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 12, 2005, 10:33:48 AM
Hmmmm....I'm still a little confused about where you're saying the extra 1/4 cup is coming into play.  if you're talking about the stage of the instructions right after the 20-minute autolyse, where you're to "mix on low speed for about 10 minutes, gradually adding flour until the dough is no longer wet and sticky," then about 1/4 cup or so (gradually added in) sounds about right--remember, you start out with only 2/3 of the flour to begin with, and this stage is where the rest is added.  Or are you saying that you're adding in the rest of the flour during that 10 minutes, but then afterward find you need to add an ADDITIONAL 1/4 cup of flour?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 12, 2005, 10:41:33 AM
I have one of Canadave's NY style doughs in the works and the ratio of flour and water, which I weighed on my digital scale (Soehnle Futura), was just about perfect. I took some photos of the dough making process to use for instructional purposes for one of our new members who is attempting a Lehmann NY style dough, and those photos appear starting at Reply #9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19565.html#msg19565. As can be seen in the last pair of photos, the dough is quite normal looking, without signs of wetness. When I checked the dough this morning, I saw that the dough was pushing up against the lid of the metal container I used--so much so that I decided to move it to a larger container. Since the finished dough temperature was just under 70 degrees F (I had used tap water at 65.5 degrees F), and my refrigerator compartment was at 43 degrees F, this came somewhat as a surprise. I think the answer lies in the fact that Dave's recipe calls for about three times the amount, by baker's percent, of yeast than the basic Lehmann recipe, and, in addition, Dave's recipe calls for sugar, whereas sugar is optional in the Lehmann recipe. Maybe the use of autolyse, which is not used in the Lehmann case, is also a factor. This is why I love playing around with new recipes. I always learn something. 

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 12, 2005, 12:52:59 PM
Peter,

I'm happy to hear your dough is faring nicely so far, and that you're running into surprises ("educational opportunities"?) as you go :)  As Earl Weaver once famously said, "It's what you learn after you know it all that counts."  Truer words were never said.

I assume you'll let the dough sit in the fridge for 4-6 days?

Dave

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 12, 2005, 02:43:02 PM
Dave,

I recently mentioned to a friend that I keep a pizza "to do" list. And because I keep adding new pizzas to make as old ones leave the list, the list never seems to get shorter. For me, a new pizza doesn't go on the list unless I think I will learn something new or useful from making it. An "educational opportunity" as you call it. Because of the seemingly endless "educational opportunities" in making pizzas, especially if you hang around this forum and pick up ideas as I do, I don't often repeat recipes exactly, even the Lehmann doughs of which I have made quite a few. There is always a spin or twist that captures my interest and curiosity. How else would someone end up baking a pizza on a bed of rocks?

As for the dough using your recipe, I'm shooting for 4-6 days. Even there I will learn something because I almost never let a dough go for 4-6 days. While I wait, I speculate as to what I think I will get when the time arrives.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Wallman on December 12, 2005, 04:47:41 PM
Dave,
Sorry about my lack of clarity. I am saying I added an additional 1/4 c. of flour (approximately) after adding the rest (final 1/3) of the flour during the 10 minute kneeding on low.  The dough was pretty sticky after adding the final 1/3 of the flour, so I just kept adding flour until it seemed smooth and not too stickly.  I'm guessing I used a TOTAL of about 2 lbs and 1/4 c. flour (sorry about mixing weights and volumes!).

Like Pete I noticed the dough did rise more than the Tom L. recipe in my fridge.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 12, 2005, 05:17:03 PM
Wow, Wallman....thanks for clearing that up, although I'm not sure why your attempt required an additional 1/4 cup.  Anyway, hope you'll try the recipe again with a longer rise time...I think you'll like it.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: canadave on December 17, 2005, 12:53:33 PM
Just occurred to me to mention this for the benefits of any newbies who might stumble across this recipe; instead of putting it in a separate thread, figured I'd just tack it on here:

As with almost any dough or pizza recipe, your final perception of the taste (which of course is the ultimate arbiter) will be HIGHLY influenced by the other ingredients you put on.  I cannot overemphasize this enough.

For instance, I've made several instances of my dough and put on some cheapo no-name supermarket sauce and mozza cheese because I had no time to go get anything else and was caught unprepared (a lesson I've since learned from).  The final overall taste was FAR inferior to the taste I got when I used the exact same dough with some good sauce and cheese.  Not even close.

The lesson here is that a pizza is like a car.  You could have a Porsche chassis on your car, but if it has a Ford Pinto's engine, tires, interior, performance, and penchant for spontaneously bursting into flames, overall you're not going to be very happy with the results.  You need a good *overall system*--crust, cheese, sauce, toppings, baking procedure, prep procedure, tools, etc--to achieve the most optimum results.

Cheers,
Dave
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 17, 2005, 03:28:00 PM
Last night, I finally got to make a pizza using Canadave’s recipe for his NY style dough. I say “finally” because I followed his advice and let the dough cold ferment for a bit over 5 days. That’s about 3-4 days longer than I normally go.

I made the dough as exactly as I could in accordance with Dave’s instructions. Where I departed from his instructions was principally in using a pizza screen in conjunction with my pizza stone instead of baking the pizza directly on the pizza stone (or tiles) alone. I used the pizza screen only because my pizza stone will not accommodate a 16-inch pizza. I also wanted to use the screen to be able to make a more direct comparison with other 16-inch NY style pizzas I have made using the same screen. Another small change I made was to use a different sauce, on which I will have more to say below.

The dough was very easy to make and I had no problems with it whatsoever. This pleased me since it confirmed that the baker’s percents I calculated appear to be accurate enough to rely upon, particularly if one is using a decent scale. The dough did rise faster than the Lehmann NY style doughs I make, and a few large bubbles formed in the dough after about a day of rising (to see them, go to Reply #3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652), but after I poked them with the tip of a sharp knife the dough settled down and remained fairly constant until I was ready to work with it.

I removed the dough from the refrigerator after 5 days and set it (covered with plastic wrap) on my countertop to warm up. Since the dough, my refrigerator, and my kitchen were all on the cool side, it took about 4 hours for the dough to reach 60 degrees F, the temperature I generally use before handling and shaping the dough. It had occurred to me to use my proofing box to speed up the process but I wanted to stay true to Dave’s instructions and not introduce a new element into the exercise. After the dough had reached 60 degrees F, I shaped and stretched it into a 16-inch skin. The dough was extremely extensible but that posed no problem since I have had ample experience with extensible, high-hydration doughs after all the Lehmann doughs I have made. I actually believe that Dave is accurate when he says that the dough can be kept for more than 6 days. It will be extensible but still usable and not overfermented. It’s hard to say that about many doughs.

The dough was dressed in a conventional pepperoni style. For the cheeses, I used a combination of shredded mozzarella and provolone cheeses. For the sauce, I chose to use fellow member Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce as described at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1931.0.html, which I hope our members and guests will read to see an example of the artisanship and passion that Les applies in his quest to make the perfect dough, sauce and pizza. It’s a high production value thread.

The pizza was baked on the screen on the top oven rack for about 5 minutes, followed by about 2 to 3 minutes on my pizza stone which had been preheated for about one hour at around 500-550 degrees F. I then moved the pizza back onto the top oven rack to let the top crust brown a bit more under the heat of the broiler element, which I had turned on just as I moved the pizza onto the pizza stone. I would estimate that the total bake time was around 8 or 9 minutes. This is a bit longer than the bake times I usually use with a 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza but the dough for the Lehmann pizza weighs about 20% less than the Canadave dough for the 16-inch.

The photos below show the finished product. The pizza turned out exceptionally well, one of the best NY styles that I have made, including a few from some well known and highly regarded pizza cookbooks. The crust was both soft and chewy and it had a nice open and airy crumb and good flavor. And Les’ grape tomato pizza sauce was a perfect accompaniment. What impressed me most about the sauce is that only a small amount went a long way. I only needed a thin coating. I believe this was possible because of the richness of the sauce and the intensity of the flavor that comes from using the ground anise, Les’ “secret” ingredient. It takes a bit of labor to make Les’ sauce, but if you do as he does and make a large batch and freeze it, in small containers, as I did also, then it is available for use whenever needed. I think it is worth the effort. Both Dave’s and Les’ recipes will go into my “favorites” file. They are both first rate.

For those who wish to try Dave’s dough recipe and would like either downsizing or upsizing the formulation I posted earlier to make a larger or smaller size pizza I’d be happy to assist. I can also modify the quantities of ingredients for those who prefer a thinner or thicker crust. For example, for a Lehmann NY style crust I usually use a thickness factor of 0.10-0.105. I calculated a thickness factor of over 0.13 for Dave’s formulation. I personally plan at some time to make a thinner version of Dave’s dough recipe to be able to make a more meaningful comparison to the thinner versions I now make. But I can already tell that the results will be very good.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 17, 2005, 03:31:18 PM
And for a typical slice...

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: pizzapal on December 18, 2005, 02:22:35 AM
That is great looking pizza!  I noticed that this recipe (and others) call for adding the oil after the dough ball has formed.  I've also read recipes that recommend adding the oil to the water/yeast mixture before the flour (which seems much easier).  Can anyone comment on the pros or cons to these different approaches?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 18, 2005, 10:04:50 AM
pizzapal,

Thanks for the compliment. It's really an easy pizza to make.

As to your question on the oil, you already have the "pro" part. It is a lot easier to just mix the oil with the water, yeast, etc. And you aren't as likely to forget it. The "con" part is that if you add the oil before the water, the flour will start to absorb part of the oil and act as a barrier to absorption of the water by the flour. The objective is to get the flour to absorb as much water as possible, and the oil hinders that. At least that's the theory behind it. Of course, you have to remember to add the oil. Also, adding the oil prolongs the knead time by about a minute or two usually, which some may consider a "con".

I personally first became aware of adding the oil after the water from reading the writings of Tom Lehmann, a pizza dough expert at the American Institute of Baking, who routinely recommends that approach to pizza operators.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: pizzapal on December 18, 2005, 05:25:11 PM
Pete-zza,

Many thanks for explaining the factors regarding oil incorporation.  I would prefer not to use any oil but with a 500 degree oven it is necessary.  In the past I've always had a hard time getting all the oil absorbed when adding it last.  I will give it another try since I have a new mixer (DLX).  Thanks to Canadave for his recipe and to the forum members who share their pizza passion.   
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Danes Dad on January 01, 2006, 11:28:59 AM
Canadave - Great recipe!

I made a 16" pepperoni/olive using your recipe.  I know it wasn't a true NY as it wasn't just cheese, but I followed everything else.  You can see pictures of the pie at this link:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2280.20.html

I hand kneaded my dough for 13minutes on a marble slab.  Everything turned out well.  Peter is also doing your recipe by hand kneading so it will be interesting to see his photos.

The only thing i'll change next time is about 1 minute less under the broiler heat.  Actually two things, i'll also try to keep it in the fridge for atleast 48hrs.


Danes Dad
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2006, 05:45:20 PM
While visiting a friend in Massachusetts over the holidays, I offered to make a “thin” pizza based on Canadave’s NY style dough. The formulation I ended up with, for a 16-inch pizza, was as follows:

Thin Version of Canadave’s NY Style Dough Formulation for 16-inch Pizza
100%, KASL high-gluten flour, 12.28 oz. (347.67 g.), (2 1/2 c. + 2 T. + 1 t.)
64.1%, Water (tap), 7.86 oz. (222.86 g.), (just under 1 c.)
1.32%, Sugar, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (a bit over 1 t.)
4.63%, Oil, 0.57 oz. (16.10 g.), (a bit under 3 1/2 t.)
1.32%, Salt, 0.16 oz. (4.58 g.), (between 3/4-7/8 t.)
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.10 oz. (2.72 g.), (a bit more than 7/8 t.)
Total dough weight = 21.11 oz. (598.51 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.105

In making the dough, I made a few changes in the instructions given by Canadave. First, I kneaded the dough entirely by hand. This was done out of necessity since my friend did not have any dough making machines. In fact, the only equipment that was available to me was a pizza stone, a wood peel, a postal scale, an instant-read thermometer and, of course, an oven (a gas oven). Fortunately, I had brought my 16-inch pizza screen with me from Texas.

Second, I altered the autolyse process a bit by incorporating all of the flour into the dough before adding and kneading in the salt and oil. I found the dough extremely easy to knead, which I attributed to the high hydration (64.1 %) and the use of the autolyse, which itself markedly increased the softness and handling qualities of the dough. I estimate that I hand kneaded the dough for about 15 minutes. In retrospect, I think I could have gotten away with maybe 10-12 minutes and possibly even less. The revelation is that I had no trouble at all in hand kneading the dough with KASL. This leads me to believe that King Arthur’s admonition not to hand knead a KASL dough in a home setting may not apply with equal force to pizza dough as to bread dough. Maybe the key is the use of the autolyse.

The finished dough, at a temperature of 76.5 degrees F, was refrigerated for 70 hours before being brought out to room temperature and allowed to warm up in preparation for handling and shaping. The warm-up time was about 1 1/2-2 hours. The dough handled very easily and I had no difficulties whatsoever in shaping and stretching the dough out to 16 inches. Once the skin was formed, it was dressed with a cooked Sicilian type pizza sauce (I used a slightly modified version of the 007bond sauce recipe in the first post at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1535.0.html), pre-cooked Italian sausage, pepperoni slices, a 50/50 blend of Grande whole-milk and part-skim mozzarella cheeses, raw and sautéed mushrooms, raw and sautéed green peppers and onions, and chiffonade fresh basil.

The pizza was baked on the uppermost oven rack position for about 6 minutes and then shifted off of the pizza screen onto a pizza stone that had been preheated for about 1 hour at 500 degrees F, the maximum temperature of the particular oven I was using. I estimate that the pizza was on the stone for about another 8-10 minutes. Once I saw that the oven was not capable of delivering greater heat to bake the pizza faster, I simply did what Tom Lehmann says to do: I just let the pizza bake longer at the lower temperature. Fortunately, everything worked out very well and we got an excellent pizza as a result. Everything about the pizza was very good—the taste, texture, flavor and color were all first rate. The crumb was not as open and airy as other NY styles I have made, but it was still NY like. It even occurred to me that I may have actually overkneaded the dough. I might add that the crust was a bit sweeter than I prefer but that is a minor quibble and easy to adjust the next time. Overall, I like Canadave’s recipe very much. And so did my friend, who proclaimed the pizza to be better than any he has been able to buy from his favorite pizza place.

The photos below show the finished pizza.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 05, 2006, 10:42:04 PM
I tried your recipe with failure, I did a 24 hour rise in the fridge and like 30 minutes outside, it didn't really proof at all.  With the lehmann recipe it, i did 24 hour in the fridge and an hour out and it was hugely proofed.  Anyways I didn't have time to  proof your dough properly cos I was in a hurry, so it yeah, turned out bad.  The dough was pretty tough/hard (not difficulty, texture).  It was flat, sorta uncooked, monster bubbles, i mean im sure your recipe is good, its just the fact that the dough wasn't proofed.  And I didn't measure the water temp this time, so that couldve been a factor too.  Also when i was kneeding the dough, it started to form sort of layers, sorta.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: RockyMarciano on February 11, 2006, 05:12:28 PM
What really happened, I figured out was I didn't hydrate the yeast properly, ill give your recipe another shot, though it is a  too heavy  for a 16" pizza, it would make a real good 18"
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on February 11, 2006, 05:32:24 PM
Rocky,

If you go to Reply#39 in this thread you will see a "thin" 16-inch Canadave NY version I made but using a thickness factor of 0.105 to come closer to the "thin" NY style. The baker's percents were the same as I originally derived for Canadave's recipe. If you want to see my attempt at Canadave's original NY style recipe using his thickness factor (which I calculated to be over 0.13), see Reply #33. I thought both pizzas were very good.

I assumed that you must have made a mistake somewhere when you didn't get the results you were looking for when you tried Canadave's recipe. I think the recipe is a good one and well worth another try. It will be different from the Lehmann NY style in that it will have a softer and more tender crust and crumb, with a bit of sweetness. Unless you go with the "thin" version, it will also be quite a bit heavier. After looking at a lot of recipes for NY style doughs, and without the benefit of having lived in NY city or eaten a lot of NY pies, I have come to the conclusion that there must be two NY styles, a thick one and a thin one. Canadave both lived in NYC and ate a lot of NY pies, so he knows what he is talking about when it comes to NY pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: tdeane on November 27, 2008, 12:38:10 PM
Not at all, Peter...feel free.  But of course (to any such members who might read this) it's a well-known fact that anything smaller than 16 inches isn't a *real* NY pizza ;) hehe

Thanks for the complimentary review.  It took me quite a while to put together, so I hope it's of some use.

Cheers,
Dave

p.s. It's quite possible I may continue to update the page, so I encourage interested readers to check back (I'll put a "last updated" date on the page)...in particular, I'd like to get some pictures posted once I get my new digital camera within the next couple of weeks (my old camera broke not too long ago).

Actually, in my seven years living in New York I never had a 16 inch pizza(or saw one), but I did see quite a few 14 inch pizzas. At least, I think they were 14 inch( I didn't actually measure them). But, many pizzerias in NY offer both a large and a small pizza. Or an 18" and a 14". It may have evn been a little smaller than 14", but I don't think so.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 01, 2008, 05:38:24 PM
tdeane,

Out of curiosity, I did a Google search to see if I could get a better feel for the sizes of New York style pizzas as sold in NYC. I found several places, like Grimaldi's, that sell a 16" size, but there seemed to be more in the 14" and 18" sizes that you mentioned. Some places use only "small" and "large" on their menus (as you also noted) or are silent as to size. For example, Ben's Pizza on MacDougal, which was canadave's favorite neighborhood pizzeria when he lived in NYC, does not list a size for its pizzas on its menu (at least the online version). I found a lot more places outside of NYC that sell 16" "NY style" pizzas. They are all over the country, no doubt trying to please transplanted New Yorkers.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: solconnection on December 21, 2008, 11:49:25 PM
This recipe looks really great, so nicely laid out and informative. Great first recipe to try for me as it uses mostly easily accessible ingredients and techniques.

the only problem for me is that i do not have an electric mixer and was hoping for some tips on hand mixing.

Ive got a ball sitting in the fridge i made by mixing with a wooden spoon and then sort of helping combine the dough by stretching a little and folding it together with my fingers and the spoon (i wasn't really pounding together onto a surface in a way i would call 'kneading' but that was somewhat the effect of it, i didnt do it for two long either...then i contrinued with Pizza Brasils method mentioned in page 1 of the threadL -> pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19132.html#msg19132

i havent baked it yet and i will report back to let you know how it goes. but it looks like a nice dough

but was just wondering if anybody else has an update or technique they are happy with for hand mixing/kneading this recipe :) is it ok to just mix the ingredients to a batter and then just knead it for a few mins?

thanks in advance, its much appreciated
-Dan
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 22, 2008, 06:51:41 AM
Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: solconnection on December 22, 2008, 07:15:28 AM
Dan,

I don't have specific hand kneading instructions for the Canadave recipe but you might apply those discussed at Reply 65 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg63786.html#msg63786.

Peter

Peter you are a weapon on the replies. big thanks (link looks very helpful)

-Dan
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: solconnection on December 25, 2008, 07:29:12 AM
hmmm, i baked one of these the other day but didnt get very good results. the crust puffed up but was still gummy by the time everything else was cooked (i even par baked it a minute before quickly topping it), though there was some nice crispness to the base. I baked at 530 on the top shelf on my pizza crisper

I also found it very hard to form in to a pizza (peel?), there were air bubbles in the dough, which meant there were sections of it that were paper thin and others that were thicker..could it be that i needed to knead it better during the creation of the dough ball? (i was hand kneading).

I also think there was maybe just too much dough, i followed pete-zzas formulation for a 16"er but even though i made a huge pizza it still felt like i had a bit too much, especially around the edges. Maybe i would be better off with a 13 or 14 inch formulation.

I also found it a bit heavy, compared to another recipe i made at the same time, but maybe that is desirable in this style of pizza. I used a 13% protein AP flour.

if anyone has any ideas of where i went wrong i would really appreciate any thoughts. I see potential in this recipe and i want to try it again but first i need to learn from my mistakes.

thanks in advance and have a nice day
-Dan

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on December 29, 2008, 04:07:47 PM
Dan,

I don't know if you caught it, but I actually gave two dough formulations for canadave's NY style dough, both for 16" pizzas. The first formulation is at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19140.html#msg19140. The second dough formulation is at Reply 39 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385. The first dough formulation was my attempt at a baker's percent version of canadave's original recipe where he gave the amounts of ingredients in volumes. The second dough formulation was a considerably thinner version of canadave's original recipe. As you will see at Reply 39, for that version I kneaded the dough by hand. Admittedly, canadave's version produces a thicker crust than most NY style doughs I have tried and read about, so you may find it easier to try the thinner version until such time as you feel more comfortable making the thicker version. If you decide that you would like to make a smaller pizza, that is easy enough to do using one of the dough calculating tools once you decide which dough formulation (the thick one or the thin one) you would like to use. If you want a really thin crust, that is also easy to do.

I think a good part of your problem is using the pizza crisper. Apparently it is ill suited for the canadave NY style. You should use either a pizza stone or, as I did, a pizza screeen. The problems you had with thin/thick areas in the skin and a rim that was too large should correct themselves with practice and experience.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: WildKaper on January 03, 2009, 01:02:33 PM
Hi all -

My first post on this forum.  I just wanted to provide some feedback on Dave's recipe.  I must confess, I've never been to New York, but I've tried some "good" N.Y. Style Pizzas, and this was definitely better than those.  I followed all the instructions in Dave's initial email, and I had no problems making the dough or shaping the pizza (The only problem I had was that I was not comfortable lifting the dough to stretch it, so I did a bunch of mini-lifts and stretches on the board).  I also only have a 14" wooden peel and a 15" stone, so my crust was a bit thicker than a true N.Y. Style, but it tasted great nonetheless.  I might make three smaller dough balls next time, just to keep it thinner overall.

I only let my first dough ball sit for 24 hours.  My other dough ball is going to sit for 3-5 days.  I will let you know how that one turns out.

Thanks everyone for the great posts and instructions.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: WestCountry on January 04, 2009, 01:17:24 PM
Hi,

I used Canadave’s recipe to make 2 thin (13-14 inch) pizzas on Christmas Day, and they came out wonderful.  ;D

The dough had a little bit of crispiness, a little bit of chew, and lots of small bubbles – just what I like. This was my first time using a long cold rise (4-day) and KASL flour. I used Peter’s translated proportions below. These pies had the magical kind of quality that I strive for.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=6b46fae693e585ba19feb4f59d956fc2&topic=2175.msg19140#msg19140

Canadave's NY Style Dough Recipe (16-inch)
---------------------------------------------------------
100%, High-gluten flour (KASL), 16 oz. (453.6 g.), 3 3/4 c.
64.1%, Water (tap, cool), 10.25 oz. (290.7 g.), 1 1/4 c.
0.78%, IDY (instant dry yeast), 0.12 oz. (3.54 g.), 1 1/4 t.
1.31%, Fine sea salt, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 t.
1.32%, Sugar, 0.21 oz. (5.98 g.), 1 1/2 t.
4.63%, Oil, 0.74 oz. (21 g.), 1 1/2 T.
Total dough weight = 27.54 oz. (780.8 g.)
Thickness Factor (TF) = 0.137

...but again please note, instead of one 16 inch pizza, I used this same recipe above for two thin 13-14 inch pies, so my pizza’s probably look a lot different than the pies earlier in this topic. I cooked the pizza in a kitchen (gas) oven at 550 degrees on a pre-heated pizza stone. I also did not cook the crust without toppings since the crust was pretty thin.

Thanks to all for sharing your info in this topic. Happy Holidays!
Chris

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 04, 2009, 02:01:06 PM
Chris,

That's a great looking pizza.

I did some calculations based on the 13"-14" pizza sizes you mentioned. For the 13" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.10073; for the 14" size, the thickness factor goes from 0.137 to 0.08685. The thickness factor of 0.10073 is more along the lines of a NY "street" style; the thickness factor of 0.08685 is more along the NY "elite" style. So, you have a choice of either style from a crust thickness standpoint.

You can use either thickness factor value, along with the same baker's percents in the dough formulation you used, in the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. The tool will give you the ingredients for any size pizza you want. I suggest using a bowl residue compensation value (e.g., 1.5%) in the tool to compensate for minor dough losses during preparation of the dough.

At the time I did the conversion of canadave's recipe to baker's percent format, I was using a spreadsheet and I did conversions of flour and water from weights to volumes using my kitchen scale. The dough calculating tool does a better job than my spreadsheet. To convert weights of flour and water to volumes for any given dough formulation, I recommend that users use November's Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/ for those ingredients in the pull-down menu. The measurement method should be the "Textbook" method. That method is defined in Reply 21 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6576.msg56397/topicseen.html#msg56397.

Thanks for posting. You may have encouraged others who prefer a thinner style to use your modified canadave recipe.

Peter

EDIT (3/4/13): Replaced Calculator link with the current link.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: WestCountry on January 08, 2009, 09:41:29 AM
Thanks Peter -

I am going to start using those tools you mention above more. I just got a nice digital scale (MyWeight KD8000 model) that I am starting to use. This scale is a lot of fun, and this will allow me to fine tune and document and evolve my recipes more.

This recipe worked great for a home oven with lower heat range. (up to 550 degrees). I will try this recipe as well with higher heat at some point in the future and see how it comes out there.

Chris
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Ray_uk_82 on January 11, 2009, 10:28:10 AM
I've just made half a batch of this recipe. I had to hand kneed it as I don't really have a suitable machine, but I followed all the steps as closely as possible. My question is really regarding the prooving of the bread in the fridge; how much increase in size would I be expecting after 24Hours?

This will be the first pizza dough recipe I have used that differs form a generic bread recipe. I have made several pizzas with good results simply using a bread consisting of

250g Strong bread flour
175ml luke-warm water
3.5g fast action yeast (this is approximate as it is half a sachet)
pinch of salt.

Dough usually kneeded for 10 minutes, prooved for an hour in a warm place, (usually doubles in size rougly); knocked back and prooved for a further 20 min.

My concern really is the proportion of yeast to flour in this (canadave's) recipe (it's a lot lower than the bread recipe). If this is due to the longer prooving, and we aren't looking for such an increase in volume then I can sort of understand it. Just concerns me that for nearly double the quantity of flour, I am using no more (and maybe even a little less) yeast.

As I say, the dough is in the fridge now so there's not much I can do. I'd just like to have an idea what to expect rather than waste good toppings on a dough that might not be quite right. For the half recipe I used,

1 Lb flour
1.25 cups water (I used the equivalent 312ml)
1.25 tsp yeast
1tsp salt (I used slightly less)
0.5 tbs sugar
1.5 tbs olive oil.

Any thoughts on what to expect would be appreciated.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 12:04:47 PM
Ray_uk_82,

When I first tried canadave's NY style dough recipe, as described at Reply 33 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg19801.html#msg19801, I experienced a substantial and clearly noticeable increase in the dough volume while in the refrigerator. You can actually see the degree of dough expansion at Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19652.html#msg19652. In my case, the dough shown in Reply 3 was after 65 hours of cold fermentation but it rose noticeably even before that. canadave noted at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2238.msg19660.html#msg19660 that my dough behaved normally. What happens in your particular case in terms of dough expansion will be governed by the temperature of the water you used in making the dough, the finished dough temperature, the temperature of your refrigerator compartment, and whether you allowed the dough to warm up at all before putting it into the refrigerator. In my case, I had all of these factors under good control yet the dough still expanded quickly.

It is typical for a pizza dough, especially one that is to be cold fermented, to use less yeast than a bread dough. It is also common for a pizza dough to have a lower hydration than a bread dough. So, I wouldn't worry about the differences.

You also shouldn't have any problems using hand kneading, provided that it is properly done. I made and reported on a "thin" hand-kneaded version of canadave's recipe at Reply 39 in this thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2175.msg20385.html#msg20385.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Ray_uk_82 on January 11, 2009, 01:56:33 PM
Thanks for your reply. The dough has been in the fridge for about 5 hours and has expanded quite a bit. I'd say it's about twice the size it was or maybe just under, so I am happier that some fermentation is taking place with this quantity of yeast to flour.

When I made the dough the water wasn't cold, but what I would describe as being tepid, roughly how water would feel if left to reach room temperatue (although I appreciate that isn't a very precise description or temperature). I kneeded the dough and put it straight into the fridge. I'll keep and eye on it, and if I think it's necessary, transfer it to a bigger bowl before I go to bed so that it doesn't get stuck to the lid if it looks to still be expanding.

I'm probably going to use some of this dough tomorrow, but I won't need all of it (I appreciate in hindsight I should have seperated the dough prior to putting it in the fridge). Is it best to knock the dough back and divide it; reserving half for the next day in the fridge? or should I attempt to divide it, without knocking back the portion I intend to keep for the following day?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 02:31:05 PM
Ray_uk_82,

I think it is better to do the division up front for a cold fermented dough that is to be shaped by hand, but in your case it may not really matter whether you knock the dough back or not because of the large amount of yeast. However, I think I would try to gently divide the dough into two pieces, shape them gently into round balls, and put them in separate storage containers.

In re-reading your ingredient quantities, I noted that you used 312 ml (312 grams) of water for 1 1/4 cups. Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams. At 312 grams of water for a pound of flour, the hydration would be 68.78%. At 295.74 grams, the hydration would be 65.2%. Most people who measure out water volumetrically tend to use a "lighter" cup, typically 8.1-8.2 ounces by weight. In fact, I often use those values in converting water in recipes from volumes to weights.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: WestCountry on January 11, 2009, 02:36:53 PM
I have had good success with this recipe in my kitchen oven (around 550 degrees). Now that I can go higher (I just got a high temperature oven - 2Stone).  I was wondering about the following:

1) How high could I (or should I) push oven temperature for this recipe for BEST results (without making change to recipe)?    (realizing that at high heat the sugar and maybe oil (?) could be an issue.)

Thanks,
Chris
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 02:58:31 PM
Chris,

At about 1.3% sugar, there should not be a problem in a home oven setting. However, it is likely to be a problem at the much higher temperatures of the  2Stone unit. That problem could be solved or at least mitigated by omitting the sugar in the recipe but then you might end up with too little residual sugar in the dough at the time of baking to get decent crust coloration. That is because of the large amount of yeast (almost 0.80%) and its capacity to feed off of the natural sugars released from the starch by the action of enzymes. You might be able to compensate for that effect by using the dough sooner, maybe after a day or two. That is something you may have to do some experimenting with. Or perhaps a member who is using canadave's recipe with a 2Stone unit can answer your questions more definitively.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Ray_uk_82 on January 11, 2009, 03:46:59 PM
The conversion of 1 cup = 312ml was done based on volume;  I was informed that 1 cup=250ml. therefore 1.25*250 ~ 312ml. From your reply I am gathering that I should have dealt with the cup in weight rather than volume. Unfortunately in the UK, a cup is a very rarely used measure (certainly not one I come across often) Any weights in a recipe would normally be in pounds or grams; any liquids would be in ml or fluid ounces. Hence the apparent confusion. What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: WestCountry on January 11, 2009, 04:04:20 PM
Thanks Peter for the high-temp feedback above.  That's what I figured. I will experiment with the yeast and sugar ingredients and see if I can work it out.

Chris
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: November on January 11, 2009, 04:34:31 PM
Can you tell me where you got that conversion? Technically, one cup of water weighs 8.345 oz., making 1 1/2 cups weigh 10.43 oz, or 295.74 grams, not 312 grams.

As you might have already figured out, Peter, a metric cup is 250 mL.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 04:54:34 PM
What problems is the over-hydrated dough likely to cause?

All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Ray_uk_82 on January 11, 2009, 05:26:01 PM
All else being equal, a more highly hydrated dough will ferment faster, and be more extensible and possibly harder to handle when shaping and stretching into a dough base, especially if of large diameter. The dough may also have a tendency to want to stick to a peel or a screen if used to dress the pizza before depositing it into the oven. On the positive side, if the dough has a well developed gluten structure with good gas and moisture retention, and has adequate yeast and sugar at the time of baking, the finished crumb may be more open and airy.

Thank you, and November, for clarifying the metric cup matter.

Peter

Ok. Thankfully the dough didn't strike me as being too difficult to handle at the time of putting it in the fridge. I'm used to using bread dough that has a distinct tendancy to not want to be stretched into a round, so hopefully this dough may be a little more co-operative. I'm sure i'll be able to make a serviceable pizza from this batch; hopefully It will in some way be different to the previous ones I have made.

I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2009, 06:12:36 PM
I've also got a batch (enough for one 8" pizza) of bread dough that has been in the fridge for about 3 days. Is there any use for this as some sort of pre-ferment, or is it likely to be exhausted?

Usually a prefermented dough (aka "old dough" or chef) that has been cold fermented is used after about 18-20 hours and maybe a bit longer. So, three days of cold fermentation may be too long and produce a dough that is low in residual sugar. Yeast levels may also be low. However, the dough should contain a lot of fermentation byproducts that can be used to add flavor and aromas and to improve the texture of a crust made using the next generation dough into which the prefermented dough is incorporated. In such a case, you will perhaps not want to exceed about 15-25% of the final dough as prefermented dough (scrap). You will also want to adjust the yeast levels in the final dough. Since the prefermented dough includes salt, the salt level of the final dough will also need adjustment.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: areacode514 on January 16, 2009, 12:34:31 AM
One of the nice things about the dough for a 16-inch is that it just right for making two 12-inch pizzas. That way, you can make them both different.

Hello!

I am extremely happy to have found this forum and this recipe.  I've prepared the dough and will be very much looking forward to baking the pizza in a couple of days.

I have some newbie questions (and apologies if they have been asked and answered already in other threads).

1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?


Perhaps in writing all of the above, I've actually answered my own questions.  In that case, any feedback confirming (or refuting) this would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

areacode514
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on January 16, 2009, 01:44:26 AM
1) What would be the best way of splitting up the dough into two balls in order to make 12-inch pizzas? 

Should I cut the dough using a knife?  Or should I try to slowly twist it into two halves (as if making sausages)?

I read so much about the gluten strands being important, so I presume that cutting would have some negative impact, if minimal.  But I guess I'm just curious to know if use of a knife is ever part of the equation when making dough.

2) Do I presume correctly that the best time to split the dough is immediately after the dough has been prepared (as opposed to after the dough has been sitting in the fridge for X days)? 

My thinking is that, [based on Canadave's original recipe, where he divides into two equal balls (that will make 16-inch pizzas) and lets them ferment in separate containers in the fridge], for me to make 12-inch pizzas, I should divide into four equal balls and let these ferment in separate containers.

3) Do I conclude correctly that any manipulation after fermentation should be kept to a minimum (i.e. just what is necessary to shape the dough flat)?
Easiest tool for cutting dough is pictured below. Buy one as it is easier to use than a knife and as you get into other forms of baking you will find it invaluable. Also use to scrape dough off a board or counter.

You will find that most recipes will call for a bulk rise and then splitting dough into balls for a second rise. I personally use a 20 hour room temp bulk rise and then portion to dough balls for an additional 4 hours or so.

Your item #3 is correct in that you don't want to play around with the dough that has risen and ruin the party. If you over handle the dough you might wind up with a flat hockey puck of a pizza, no fun at all unless you need a spare puck for your hockey game.

PNW
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 16, 2009, 07:45:48 AM
areacode514,

I agree with everything PNW said. And, yes, if you used canadave's original recipe with two pounds of flour, that would be enough to make two 16" pizzas or four 12" pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: areacode514 on January 16, 2009, 11:13:46 PM
Thanks for your input.

Just to make sure I don't misunderstand, when exactly is the "bulk rise" and "second rise" occurring in Canadave's recipe? 
Is the bulk rise happening during the 24-48 hour fridge period, and the second rise happening when the tin is taken out of the fridge and left on the countertop at room temperature for 1-2 hours?

Regards,

areacode514
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pizza_Not_War on January 16, 2009, 11:28:50 PM
514

I just now looked at the recipe, it appears from this "4. Remove dough from mixer and divide into two equal balls." that he does not use a bulk rise at all. A bulk rise would be if he left all the dough as one batch and then split it into 2 pieces at a later time after some fermentation.

PNW
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on January 17, 2009, 05:59:16 AM
areacode514,

These days, cold fermented dough is invariably divided up front rather than after fermentation. It is just the easier and better way to do it, with less handling and shaping of the dough. Bulk rising of dough with later division is more common with room temperature fermented dough (e.g., Neapolitan style) or where the dough balls are to be run through a roller or sheeter.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: NewYorkMinute on January 25, 2009, 11:26:44 PM
Dave,

This looks like an old thread. I like your recipe and will try it out with your twists -- it looks similar to what I'm now doing but interesting enough to try out soon, which for me will probably be in a day or two. Every time I say I need a break from making pizzas I find myself right back at it! I have made the street NY pizza that is my favorite but made the mistake of making it a little extra crunchy, something I really hate! If you or anybody has more ideas on NY-style pizza please let me know. Best Regards all....


Quote
Hi all,

It's been a while since I've posted to the forum, but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.  It's based on lots of what I've learned here, and also based on member varasano's recipe as well

I'm a long-time native New Yorker, so rest assured that the observations I make in the article about NY pizza are authentic, not just what I read out of a book somewhere :)

Also, my page has a detailed introduction to New York pizza, as well as detailed step-by-step instructions for some of the more difficult steps in the recipe (like stretching dough with your hands).  Just about every step has an explanation as to why it's done that way and not some other way.  At the end is a "quick recipe" for people who just want to "cut to the chase" and get the recipe and directions with no explanations.


INTRODUCTION
===========

True New York City pizza is a special experience, a concoction that is often imitated but rarely gotten right. There are lots of recipes on the Internet that claim to produce a “New York-Style Pizza,” but mostly these come nowhere close to resembling an actual New York pizza (for a variety of reasons).

There are really two types of authentic New York pizzas; I like to call them “street” pizzas and “elite” pizzas. A “street” pizza is typical of the myriad pizzerias that exist throughout New York (epitomized by the ubiquitous-yet-all-unrelated “Ray’s” which sit on seemingly every other street corner), where you can walk in and order inexpensive individual slices to stay or to go. These pizzas are characterized by a flexible, foldable crust that’s anywhere from ¼-to-½ inch thick; tomato sauce with some light spices; and a relatively thick layer of mozzarella cheese, cooked in a standard gas-fired commercial pizza oven.

“Elite” pizzas in New York can be found at only a handful of famous pizzeria restaurants that have been in existence for decades. At these legendary establishments, individual “pizza masters” have passed along a tradition of high-quality pizza. Lombardi’s, Patsy’s, John’s, Totonno’s, and Grimaldi’s are examples of these pizzerias (Lombardi’s, which opened in 1905, was the first pizzeria in the United States). An elite pizza is generally more expensive, and can only be bought as whole pies, rather than individual slices (the pie itself is cut into slices of course). The pizzas themselves are usually slightly thinner and crispier; use a higher-quality cheese such as fresh mozzarella or bocconcino, placed sparingly on the pizza; feature very lightly-spiced sauces made from quality fresh San Marzano tomatoes; and—most importantly—are cooked in ovens that are either wood-fired or coal-fired to achieve extremely high baking temperatures (700 to 800 degrees), resulting in a dark brown or black char to the crust that is extraordinarily delicious.

Which type of pizza is better? Although elite pizzas are almost always superb, there are many street pizzas that taste just as good, if not superior. In fact, a common New York pastime is arguing about which local neighbourhood pizzeria is the best. Conversely, I have tasted a few elite pizzas that were substandard. Yet some street pizzas are so bad that they barely qualify as pizza. Suffice to say, there are great examples out there of both elite and street pizza....

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Mikro-Midas on June 30, 2009, 08:24:30 PM
I think I'll have Canadaves recipe a try, but I have some questions.

1) Is an 20 minute autolyse really necessary? Does it make any difference from 5 min.?
2) I find the 4-6 days of rising far longer than anything I've ever read. Have anyone other than Canadave tried the same recipe (this or an other) with and without the long rise, to taste for a difference?
3) Why is the pizza precooked? To make it easier to handle or because it's supposed to taste better?
4) Wouldn't the oven get cold, when it is opened three times instead of one? Should you wait some time to get the oven hot again before the second bake?
5) The trick with opening the door (dus letting warm air out, but leaving the stone hot) to trick the oven to heat up the stone some more, how is that done? How long should you open the door and how long should you close it again, before opening again (when the oven is hot again) ... etc ...
6) Is there an advantage in putting the oil in as the last ingredient to the dough, as many mentions (but this recipe doesn't), or is that a sort of question no-one manage to agree on?

A lot of questions; thanks to anyone who could answer some of them!  :)
But I think I'll start at once anyway  :chef:
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on June 30, 2009, 09:15:37 PM
Mikro-Midas,

I will attempt to answer your questions, using your paragraph numbering system.

1. What Canadave uses is not technically an autolyse, because it includes the yeast during the rest period, but since cold water is also used, the rest period is quite close to an autolyse rest period. A twenty minute rest period is quite common but five minutes might be too short if you are making the full amount of dough for two pizzas. A rest period of 10-15 minutes might be sufficient.

2. A 4-6 day cold fermentation period is not usual but it is not rare either. It is somewhat unusual, however, for a dough with the high yeast level (0.78% IDY) of Canadave's dough formulation. If you go back and read the rest of the thread, you will see that I made a "thinner" version of Canadave's pizza and used less than 4-6 days of cold fermentation, specifically, about 70 hours. Because of the high yeast level of Canadave's dough, I believe that Canadave's dough can be used within shorter time periods, perhaps as short as one day. However, I did not personally try a much shorter period. Many of our members, me included, have made and used doughs successfully after more than two weeks of cold fermentation, but not using Canadave's recipe to the best of my knowledge. Special measures, not material here, have to be used to achieve such long fermentation periods.

3. I can't speak for Canadave as to why he pre-bakes his crust, but it is a fairly common technique, one that is often used in order to get a greater height an a more open and airy characteristic in the finished crust. This is made possible not only because of the high yeast content and high hydration of Canadave's dough but also because there is no weight of sauce, cheese and toppings to restrict the expansion of the dough during the pre-bake.

4. Opening the oven door will allow some oven heat to escape, but there should still be significant retention of heat by the pizza stone. However, it won't hurt to let the oven warm up again before finishing baking the pizza with the sauce, cheeses and toppings. In fact, the oven may regain its temperature while the pre-baked crust is being dressed.

5. With my electric oven, a light goes on whenever the bottom coil goes on. If I open the door to get the bottom coil to go on, the light goes on as soon as the coil goes on.

6. There are some people who feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process impedes hydration of the flour. Others feel that adding the oil earlier in the dough making process allows for more uniform dispersion of the oil throughout the dough. I have used both methods in a home setting and have not detected any significant differences. However, if you are hand kneading, it is more difficult to incorporate oil into an existing dough than if you are using a stand mixer.

Peter

Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Mikro-Midas on July 06, 2009, 10:21:08 AM
Well, now I have tried both the Candanave recipe and Pete-zza´s modified, thinner version. I divided the doughs in two and put (the four of) them in freezer bags in the refrigerator, coated with some oil. I had some problems, though. When it was time to take them out of the bags, after a couple of hours on the kitchen counter, it was really hard to get them out in a nondestructive way. They were much flatter (big volume, but low hight) than my usual doughs tend to be, and very airy/light, so I had to be very careful when I took them out. I might have have used a little to little oil, cause it seemed to stick to the bottom of the bag more than normal. The bag also seemed to small, the balls being so flat, so that made it harder to get them out properly. The doughs also was a little hard to handle when they were out; I had to be very careful and the doughs didn't get to the right size. Under I have put pictures of three of my four pizza attempts. I ended up reshaping the two last doughs and had a new rise, 30 min. in the sun. The fourth (one from Dave's recipe) was made after 1 1/2 day (in contrast to the others, which was made after 3 1/2 days in the fridge), and I don't have any picture of it, but it looked like the others and tasted similar. This can, dough, be because of my problems sited above. I'm not really sure which of the other pizzas was from which recipe, but I guess the largest of them (it still didn't reach the 12 inch mark) was from the original recipe, since it was supposed to be thicker. They tasted good, but I guess they could have been better without my problems. Any improvement suggestions, anyone?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on July 06, 2009, 01:50:04 PM
Mikro-Midas,

I am away from my home base this week, but can you tell me where you are located and what type and brand of flour you used, and what bake protocol you used?

You should be aware that the Canadave dough is prone to high fermentation because of the high hydration and the relatively large amount of yeast. The problem with spreading can be resolved with hydration control (in relation to the type of flour used) and by using a bowl or similar container to store the dough balls instead of plastic storage bags.

Can you also tell me whether you re-shaped, re-kneaded, or re-balled the dough balls before you used them for reasons other than to resurrect the dough because of the spreading and sticking problems? With Canadave's dough formulation you should have been able to shape and stretch the dough balls out to size without any difficulty.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: CaptSammy on July 06, 2009, 02:25:59 PM
. . .but Peter talked me into posting my latest version of my NY style recipe.
Enjoy Dave

Great post.  Thank you very much and once again Thanks Peter
Capt Sammy
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Mikro-Midas on July 06, 2009, 08:43:10 PM
I'm located i Oslo, Norway. I used regular all-purpose flour and mixed in some gluten flour (about 1/2 a deciliter per 7 dl of total flour). They began selling alimenti Dallari tipo "0" in some stores some mounts ago, but I'm not sure if it is any good (my pizza making have improved a lot since the last time I tried it. Anyone tried it?). Anyway, I usually am trying to make my pizzas a little more healthy and am therefor in need to mix wholemeal wheat with gluten flour. Do you know if I need to use more gluten flour then to make it rise sufficiently? Anyhow, back to the answers: I'm not sure what you mean by bake protocol but if your asking how I made it, I tried to follow the directions. I had to sift the all-purpose and gluten flour together some times, and the flour/water ratio was adjusted to find the slightly sticky, but not "sticking to your finger" kind of sticky, feel. I then used the wondowpane test, which I've just read about and never actually seen anyone do, so I don't know if I doing it correct, but it can't be very far from good enough.

What do you mean by hydration control?

The balls were just re-balled and let to get a new rise.
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on July 07, 2009, 11:43:38 AM
Mikro-Midas,

The reason I asked you where you are located is that flours used outside of the U.S. are often weaker than U.S. flours and don't perform in the same fashion, and often with the same degree of success, as U.S. flours . High-gluten flours, which is the type of flour called for by Canadave's recipe, are often unavailable in many countries outside of the U.S. Substituting bread flour will often work, but substituting all-purpose flour, even if supplemented with vital wheat gluten (VWG), doesn't produce equivalent results. Moreover, when using weaker flours, it is usually necessary to alter the hydration value of the recipe such that it approaches the rated absorption value of the particular flour used. In the U.S., for an all-purpose flour, that hydration value would be around 60%. That is what I mean by "hydration control".

In your case, you may want to lower the hydration value to around 60% and make whatever ancillary adjustments are necessary if you plan to supplement your flour with VWG and/or whole wheat flour. If you are using, or plan to use, only whole wheat flour, possibly supplemented with VWG, I can't tell you how well Canadave's recipe will work with that flour blend.

If you use bowls instead of freezer bags, you should avoid the need to re-ball, re-shape or re-knead the dough balls. Under normal conditions, you never want to do this sort of thing. It sounds like you are trying to make four 12" pizzas rather than two 16" pizzas. If such is the case, you shouldn't have any problems making four 12" pizza.

By bake protocol, I meant how you baked your pizzas, that is, using a pizza stone or tiles or screen, the type of oven, the rack positioning, oven temperature and bake time.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Mikro-Midas on July 08, 2009, 09:57:54 AM
Hmm, ok. I don't really have much choice when it comes to types of flour. Importing King Arthur or something from across the globe is to expensive for me. As I said, some of the grocery stores sell alimenti Dallari tipo "0", which they call pizza flour, so I'll try that again, but for Whole Wheat I'll need to use the vital wheat gluten (possibly in some combination). Do you know if I need to use more vital wheat gluten when I'm mixing it into whole wheat than into all-purpose? Bread flour have I never seen in any store, so that's out of the question.

About the bake control, I used a regular electric home oven with a stone at the bottom position. The oven was heated for about an hour. It goes up to 300 C (572 F), but I don't know how the stone affect this. I tried to pre-bake the three first pizzas, but I wouldn't say that that made them any more voluminous than the last one, which I didn't pre-heat. The three first was after the pre-bake topped with sauce, meat and cheese and then baked on the pizza mode for 2-3 min and then 2-3 min more with heat from above. The last one was just heated with the pizza mode for about 5 min.

Wouldn't the dough stick just as much to the bowl than to the freezer bag?

When it comes to the hydration level, is the dough supposed to feel firmer, less sticky, when I'm using some other flour than high-gluten? Or do you just mean that I have to adjust the amount of water, because different flours have different absorption levels?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on July 08, 2009, 10:39:51 AM
Mikro-Midas,

I am not familiar with the Dallari tipo "0" flour, so you may just have to try some to see if it works. Until you know, you might try making just a single 12" pizza as a test pizza.

I rarely work with whole wheat flour, so you might look under the Specialty-Grain board at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/board,61.0.html to see if you find the answer to the questions on the whole wheat flour or else await possible replies from other members who do work regularly with whole wheat flours. They may also be able to give you insights on whether you can modify Canadave's recipe to use whole wheat flour.

I suggested the use of bowls mainly to reduce the spreading of the dough balls. To prevent or minimize sticking, I oil the bowls before placing the dough balls into the bowls.

Different flours, at least in the U.S., have different absorption values as established by the millers of the flours. For the high-gluten flour as called for in Canadave's recipe, it is around 63%; for bread flour, it is around 62%; for all-purpose flour, it is around 60-61%. These values can vary somewhat from one brand to another. Professionals often use lower values to reduce handling problems. To read more on this subject, see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4646.msg39204/topicseen.html#msg39204.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Chi_Guy on April 05, 2013, 02:52:18 PM
Bumping up an ancient thread here.

I'm eager to try canadave's recipe but don't have any high gluten flour which is what everyone seems to be using.  Has anyone tried this recipe with bread flour yet?  I'm thinking of modifying the recipe to lower the hydration to 63% for the KABF I'll be using.  Is that a good idea or should I stick to the 64% hydration in the original recipe? 
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: carl333 on November 25, 2014, 06:26:07 PM
canadave, several years have passed, have you tweeked your recipe? I'm ready to go with your recipe.  Any positive changes?
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 25, 2014, 07:21:07 PM
carl333,

I doubt that Canadave has tweaked his recipe, for the reasons given at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6702.msg57495/topicseen.html#msg57495 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6702.msg57495/topicseen.html#msg57495).

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: carl333 on November 25, 2014, 09:01:24 PM
Thank you Peter for chiming in.

 I've been a lurker for several months now, just absorbing and absorbing. As a newbie to pizza dough making, I have earned the importance of hydration and its reasoning,  oven temps, different flours, electrolyse (u know what I mean) Right now I'm trying to perfect my dough. Prior to my studies here,  I would just read a recipe, slap a dough together and hope for the best. I can't believe all the dry dough balls I have created and couldn't understand why my results were so far from the local pizza joint.

I've read so many of your comprehensive posts in this forum quoting subject titles and post numbers it truly amazes me. How do you do it??

I just completed canadave's recipe and its aging in the fridge as we speak. I can't wait to see the results. I have a gram scale and measured everything to the T. The most difficult part was trying to simulate the dough to the bottom of a babys bum and trying to get that right feel and hydration. I threw all the flour in anyways and hoping for the best.  Not experienced enough to know as yet. 550 max

BTW, I have a heavy cast iron pizza pan that I have been using for some time. Would I see a difference with quarry stone and if so, what would I expect? I have one on my shopping list. Does one big tile retain heat as much as several smaller tiles?

tks Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2014, 02:22:20 PM
BTW, I have a heavy cast iron pizza pan that I have been using for some time. Would I see a difference with quarry stone and if so, what would I expect? I have one on my shopping list. Does one big tile retain heat as much as several smaller tiles?
carl333,

What you use as a substrate or platform on which to bake a pizza depends to a large degree on the type of pizza you want to make. Once you decide on the type of pizza you want to make, you should then use the best substrate or platform for that pizza, whether it is a pizza stone, quarry tiles, a pizza screen, a disk (perforated or unperforated), a pan (including a cast iron pan, a deep-dish pan, or a perforated or unperforated cutter pan), a metal sheet, or maybe even some combination of the foregoing (like a screen and stone, a pan and stone, etc.). In the stone realm, you can decide between tiles and a single pizza stone, but if you are serious about your pizza making in the sense that you will be making pizzas fairly regularly, then a single pizza stone of the proper size and material is more likely to be a better choice than tiles because of their better conductivity and heat retention.

A common problem that I have seen is where a member tries to make a particular type of pizza fit whatever substrate or platform they have or hand. Sometimes that works but not always.

Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: carl333 on November 26, 2014, 04:30:30 PM
OMG! So many substrates to choose from!! I think my standard would be a NY/American style pizza. I'm thinking that a full size quarry stone will do. What say you?

tks Peter
Title: Re: canadave's NY Style recipe
Post by: Pete-zza on November 26, 2014, 04:58:22 PM
OMG! So many substrates to choose from!! I think my standard would be a NY/American style pizza. I'm thinking that a full size quarry stone will do. What say you?

tks Peter
carl333,

For the NY style, a pizza stone or a steel plate (see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,31267.msg310998.html#msg310998 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,31267.msg310998.html#msg310998)) are perhaps the best choices. Many American style pizzas are made using a dough with a lot of sugar (think Papa John's), so a stone or steel plate would not be the best choices in most cases. For the American style pizza, a pizza screen might be more suitable for standard home oven applications.

Peter