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Author Topic: Essen1's NY-style pizza project  (Read 312268 times)

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2160 on: January 17, 2018, 03:30:58 PM »
2% added sugar (sucrose) is actually supposed to be the "sweet spot" where fermentation starts the fastest - it creates the optimum environment of additional fermentable sugars without excessive osmotic pressure. I'll be interested to see if it ferments faster than expected.

http://www.uaiasi.ro/sim_revagr/PDF/2009_2_123.pdf

Craig,

Thanks for posting this!

I increased the salt as well to 2.5% to keep the fermentation rate in check. It's also being CF'ed. We'll see either tomorrow or Friday, depending on how fast it goes. I'm hoping for Friday, though.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2161 on: January 17, 2018, 05:06:13 PM »
First dough without any malt in a long time. I used 2% raw (turbinado) sugar and upped the yeast amount a little since sugar is hygroscopic in nature. I also allowed the flour to completely hydrate before adding the sugar last.
Mike,

I have heard about adding the yeast last, and have done so many times myself to slow down the rate of fermentation, and I have heard and tried adding the salt last, but I can't recall reading about adding the sugar last. Can you tell me where you got that idea and why you added it last?

I found Craig's pdf interesting. I was aware that if too much sugar is used, it can adversely affect the yeast through the process of osmotic pressure. But, as discussed at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_development.htm, you usually need a lot of sugar--around 5%--for that to happen.

I might add that Tom Lehmann often suggests using about 1-2% sugar for a NY style dough that is to be cold fermented beyond about two days. The sugar helps feed the yeast once the sugar is hydrolyzed into simple sugars, which are the only sugars that yeast can use as food, and it can also contribute to increased crust coloratiob.

Peter


Offline the1mu

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2162 on: January 17, 2018, 07:01:33 PM »
Peter,

I have no clue if this is why Mike would have done this, but often in high sugar doughs (10% and up) like a brioche, we will hold back a part of the sugar since it acts as a liquifying agent in the dough. This is done to allow the gluten to develop more fully. Then the sugar is added and finally the butter.

Probably not what Mike was necessarily going for but thought you might be interested.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2163 on: January 17, 2018, 07:13:45 PM »
Peter,

Probably not what Mike was necessarily going for but thought you might be interested.

Aric,

Thank you for that bit of information. It is very interesting. I know that there are special forms of yeasts that are used for doughs with very high sugar content but not at around 2%. I have some thoughts about what Mike has done but Iíd like to get the story directly from him.

Peter

Offline the1mu

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2164 on: January 17, 2018, 07:23:20 PM »
Aric,

Thank you for that bit of information. It is very interesting. I know that there are special forms of yeasts that are used for doughs with very high sugar content but not at around 2%. I have some thoughts about what Mike has done but Iíd like to get the story directly from him.

Peter

Peter,

Iím sure you already know this, but for anyone who is reading, who doesnít and is interested, said yeast is called osmotorelant yeast and typically comes in package similar to IDY but I have seen it in CY form as well.

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2165 on: January 17, 2018, 07:25:37 PM »
Mike,

I have heard about adding the yeast last, and have done so many times myself to slow down the rate of fermentation, and I have heard and tried adding the salt last, but I can't recall reading about adding the sugar last. Can you tell me where you got that idea and why you added it last?



Peter,

I should have been more clear and detailed in my previous post. I didn't mean to suggest that the sugar was last in the chain of ingredients added. That spot is always reserved for the oil.

What I mean was that I added the sugar after the flour hydrating stage, which included the yeast, as to not give the dough a too much of a premature head start in terms of fermentation. 2% raw sugar was quite a bit so I figured to add it after the first stage of mixing.

I wasn't trying to invent something new.  :)

Below's the entire formula, incl. notes.

Open
GramsOuncesPounds
Flour (100%)1,065382
Water (62%)660231
Active Dry Yeast (0.5%)500
Regular/Fine Sea Salt (2.5%)2710
Olive Oil (2%)2110
Sugar (2%)2110
Total (169%)1,800634
Single Ball1,800634

Quote
Add water (65įF) to bowl, add yeast and whisk together. Hydrate for 10 mins.

Add salt to flour and combine well. Add to bowl and mix for 2 mins. Rest for 20 mins. Add sugar, mix for 1 minute then switch to Speed 2. Add the oil with mixer running and mix until combined. Switch to Speed 1 and mix for another 6 minutes. Dough temp should be around 78-80įF off the hook.

Place on counter and rest for 20 mins, covered. Ball, brush with olive oil and put in fridge for up to 3 days. Make sure to keep lid ajar for the first hour to let the dough cool down and avoid moisture build-up (condensation).

This amount of dough makes two 18" & two 12" pizzas or four 16" pizzas.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2166 on: January 17, 2018, 07:30:28 PM »
Peter,

I have no clue if this is why Mike would have done this, but often in high sugar doughs (10% and up) like a brioche, we will hold back a part of the sugar since it acts as a liquifying agent in the dough. This is done to allow the gluten to develop more fully. Then the sugar is added and finally the butter.

Probably not what Mike was necessarily going for but thought you might be interested.

Aric,

That is interesting info. Thank you for posting this.

I knew sugar had a certain effect on hydration in the dough, which can affect the yeast and, as you pointed out, gluten development. One never stops learning... :)
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2167 on: January 17, 2018, 07:57:43 PM »
Peter,

What I mean was that I added the sugar after the flour hydrating stage, which included the yeast, as to not give the dough a too much of a premature head start in terms of fermentation. 2% raw sugar was quite a bit so I figured to add it after the first stage of mixing.

I wasn't trying to invent something new.  :)
Mike,

What you said in the above quoted material is what I thought you had in mind. However, I doubt that adding the sugar to the dough as you did will have an immediate effect on the fermentation process. The reason is that the sugar is a complex sugar and has to be hydrolyzed into simple sugars to be used by the yeast in the fermentation process, and that can take several hours. I have written on this subject many times before but these posts are typical:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16655.msg166362;topicseen#msg166362

Reply 11 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8772.msg76125;topicseen#msg76125

I wouldnít worry about your dough. No harm, no foul :-D.

Peter

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2168 on: January 17, 2018, 09:50:25 PM »
Mike,

What you said in the above quoted material is what I thought you had in mind. However, I doubt that adding the sugar to the dough as you did will have an immediate effect on the fermentation process. The reason is that the sugar is a complex sugar and has to be hydrolyzed into simple sugars to be used by the yeast in the fermentation process, and that can take several hours. I have written on this subject many times before but these posts are typical:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=16655.msg166362;topicseen#msg166362

Reply 11 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8772.msg76125;topicseen#msg76125

I wouldnít worry about your dough. No harm, no foul :-D.

Peter

Peter,

I didn't know what to expect with this organic, raw, brown sugar called Turbinado so I thought I better be safe than have my dough explode right on the counter...

Now I can wipe the cold sweat off my forehead!  ;D
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2169 on: January 18, 2018, 07:26:50 PM »
2% added sugar (sucrose) is actually supposed to be the "sweet spot" where fermentation starts the fastest - it creates the optimum environment of additional fermentable sugars without excessive osmotic pressure. I'll be interested to see if it ferments faster than expected.

http://www.uaiasi.ro/sim_revagr/PDF/2009_2_123.pdf

Craig,

Pics taken just now after 48 hrs. Going strong and the dough has at least one more day in him.

It flattened out a bit but that was to be expected.

Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2170 on: January 19, 2018, 04:26:01 PM »
A 12Ē pie (4 cheese) from the batch above.

Crust had good flavor and color. But I would like the crust to be a little softer so Iíll blend in either some 00 or AP flour with the next batch. Structure and texture was spot on, though.

Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2171 on: January 19, 2018, 04:50:29 PM »
Those look wonderful, Mike! 

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2172 on: January 19, 2018, 05:28:56 PM »
Thank you, Bill!

But nothing compared what comes out of your Blackstone.

It was pretty good but like I said it needs more softness. Seems like there's never complete satisfaction where one could say "Okay, now I can die a happy man."  ;D
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline norcoscia

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2173 on: January 19, 2018, 06:44:27 PM »
Very nice and great oven spring on the edge - you make some of the best looking pies on the forum, Mike.  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:
Norm

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2174 on: January 19, 2018, 07:09:30 PM »
Very nice and great oven spring on the edge - you make some of the best looking pies on the forum, Mike.  :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool: :drool:

Thanks, buddy! Can't wait to see the new pies that will come out of your new oven!
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

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Offline norcoscia

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2175 on: January 19, 2018, 07:49:20 PM »
I forgot - I wanted to ask you what temperature you are cooking at - perfect color and great melt on the cheese!
Norm

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2176 on: January 19, 2018, 07:58:52 PM »
You're too modest Mike :)   But thank you so very much.

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2177 on: January 19, 2018, 08:50:28 PM »
I forgot - I wanted to ask you what temperature you are cooking at - perfect color and great melt on the cheese!

That one was baked at 650įF.

Don't be afraid to use a bit more cheese, especially now that you will be able to bake 18, 20 & 24 inch pies.  ;D
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Essen1

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2178 on: January 19, 2018, 08:53:42 PM »
You're too modest Mike :)   But thank you so very much.

Bill,

Your pies out of the BS are creatures of art.

They have always had that artistic, artisan and dedication-to-the-craft flair.
Mike

ďAll styles of pizza are valid. I make the best Iím capable of; you should make the best youíre capable of. I donít want to make somebody elseís pizza.Ē ~ Chris Bianco

Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Essen1's NY-style pizza project
« Reply #2179 on: January 20, 2018, 12:48:22 AM »
 :-[ (blushing) :)   


Thank you, Mike...those words are what I'll  keep in mind on nights I manage to accidentally "adjust"  a fully loaded shrimp amd sausage  pizza. inch by inch toward  the back of  the turning stone.... and watch the hot cheesy, raw-shrimpy mess slide into the workings of the machine and onto the ground  :-D
« Last Edit: January 20, 2018, 12:53:40 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »

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