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Author Topic: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway  (Read 16005 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #180 on: June 22, 2021, 11:17:17 AM »
How time flies. I decided to cut back on forums two years ago to prioritize other things in life. Things are more relaxed now, forums slowly crept back and I already frequent some baking related sites, so I wanted to get back in here as well.

Iíve been making my Neapolitan with SD pretty consistently, but not been too happy with the results lately. Dough behaves a bit weird, final product isnít as great anymore and thereís a gum line I donít approve of. I have suspected my starter being slightly off for some time so I just made a new one. Iíve made a few loaves with it and it works very well. Back when I started with NP SD I made 48h doughs, then focused more on 24h and when I attempted 48h it didnít turn out too well. I want to give it a new go and see what the new starter can do, both with 24h and 48h. I wondered today if the gluten in the 24h doughs didnít get enough time to develop since I use the same method as I did for 48h, with very little dough handling. I may want to give it some mixing or kneading for 24h doughs.

I also plan to try Maurizioís sourdough pizza al Taglio over at theperfectloaf.com. I have had a couple attempts, but not at all happy with them. Dense, hard crust, gum line. Hopefully the new starter may alleviate some of the issues.

Welcome back. I took a break for a while too - feels good to be back. I think you're on to something regarding the 48h vs 24h doughs. In my experience, the 48h doughs need very little kneading.

For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
« Last Edit: June 22, 2021, 11:19:49 AM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #181 on: June 22, 2021, 02:35:56 PM »
Icelandr: Thank you!

Welcome back. I took a break for a while too - feels good to be back. I think you're on to something regarding the 48h vs 24h doughs. In my experience, the 48h doughs need very little kneading.

For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
Thanks for the tips. I have not had very good success using SD for pan style pizzas through the years. As you say, they end up denser and harder than ones with yeast, where they fluff up very nice. Same experience with NP too I suppose. The IDY pies are softer with a larger cornicione, but also more hollow in taste. We usually use IDY for pan style pizza, and Iíll try it out for al taglio too. I might give SD a go there as well. Iíve seen many photos of SD focaccia, which looks quite nice. Al taglio looks somewhat in the same vein.
Heine
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #182 on: June 23, 2021, 10:41:54 AM »
For the pizza al Taglio, I recommend using fresh/dry yeast instead of sourdough. I've done it many times both ways and using fresh/dry has produced a much lighter and fluffier texture, but your mileage may vary. If you look closely at the pictures of Maurizio's pizza al taglio, you'll notice some huge bubbles and lots of tiny bubbles. Areas where there are lots of tiny bubbles are going to be very dense and bready. In an ideal pizza al taglio, you will see very few tiny bubbles but mostly a collection of medium and large bubbles only - a clear sign that the pizza will be very light.
Got a suggestion for recipe for the al taglio btw?
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #183 on: June 23, 2021, 02:50:57 PM »
Got a suggestion for recipe for the al taglio btw?

Sure. What kind of mixer are you using? Or did you want to mix by hand?
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #184 on: June 23, 2021, 03:01:48 PM »
Sure. What kind of mixer are you using? Or did you want to mix by hand?
I got a Bear Varimixer Teddy (Danish) with a paddle and spiral hook. It is small professional grade mixer with plenty of power. We usually use it on our pan style pies with 420g flour IIRC.

Primarily one with IDY or CY. Thanks.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 03:03:33 PM by Heikjo »
Heine
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #185 on: June 23, 2021, 05:47:04 PM »


I haven't tried this recipe yet because I mostly mix in a spiral mixer, but this guy is very good at making amazing doughs using planetary hook.

What I do now is something like this:

1000g flour w300 (tipo 0 or tipo 1)
750-800g water.
20g salt
3-4g IDY or 7g CY

Mix until windowpane and put on counter, covering with oiled plastic wrap. After 20 minutes, give it some folds. 2h RT bulk, 22-24h CT bulk, 4-6h RT ball, spread into pan and bake at 300C with only tomato sauce or evoo for 10 minutes on floor of oven (no stone), rotating halfway through. Remove from oven, add any final toppings such as mozz or prosciutto, salami, etc, and finish on a high rack for a few more minutes until cheese is melted and toppings are warmed through.

One of the biggest keys I've discovered for pizza in teglia is that you need to 2-3x the bulk before forming loaves. This helps a lot to develop those giant open bubbles in the final pizza.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2021, 06:18:03 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #186 on: June 24, 2021, 02:56:26 AM »
Thanks!

Appreciate the details of baking method. Maurizio's recipe used a stone, which I got, and a Lloyd pan, which I don't have. I only got the pans that came with the oven, and they can't be put on top of a stone since they just start warping.

I just now realized why a planetary mixer is called planetary. Learn something new every day. :)

One of the biggest keys I've discovered for pizza in teglia is that you need to 2-3x the bulk before forming loaves. This helps a lot to develop those giant open bubbles in the final pizza.
Do you get 2-3x with only 2h in RT, 24h in CT and such small amounts of yeast?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2021, 06:51:16 AM by Heikjo »
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #187 on: June 24, 2021, 11:39:13 PM »
Thanks!

Appreciate the details of baking method. Maurizio's recipe used a stone, which I got, and a Lloyd pan, which I don't have. I only got the pans that came with the oven, and they can't be put on top of a stone since they just start warping.

I just now realized why a planetary mixer is called planetary. Learn something new every day. :)
Do you get 2-3x with only 2h in RT, 24h in CT and such small amounts of yeast?

For pizza in teglia, the best from my understanding is an iron pan. Something like this:

https://www.palepizza.com/en-us/blue-iron-rectangular-pizza-pan-cm.-30-x-40-x-3h-straight-edge-with-diagonal-to-x-anteflexion/

A 30x40 pan makes excellent pizza in teglia using 600-650g dough balls.

Yes, 7g fresh yeast per 1000g flour is plenty to create doubling in the fridge after 2h rest at room temperature and 24h in the fridge. Worst case, if it doesn't double by then, just remove from the fridge and allow to double before making your pizza in teglia balls.

For your teglia dough, you will want to use 1000g or more flour and make sure your dough hits around 24C. It will start fermenting quite a bit in those two hours and then because the dough is bulky, it will take a long time to cool down in the fridge. It's much slower to cool down than making 250-280g Neapolitan dough balls and putting those in the fridge - those cool down quickly. If you want to use less flour, just give it more time at room temp - time isn't important. What's important is that the bulk at least doubles. This made all the difference for me with pizza in teglia and focaccia.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #188 on: June 28, 2021, 11:47:17 AM »
Three 24h IDY pies today. As I always say when making IDY, I remain unimpressed. When used to SD in my bread every day and in my pizza for years, IDY doesnít do it. They were good, but left a lot to be desired.

62% HR, 0.15% IDY, ice water, RT at 15C.

Used a mixer this time. It was perhaps kneaded too much. 14 minutes, including the early slow stages where I gradually add the flour.

Two margheritas and one pizza rosa, last one inspired by schold. I have made one with pistachio not too long ago, but not exactly pizza rosa. Forgot the oil and didnít have rosemary, but it was very good. Fior di latte, parmeggiano and red onion. Pistachio post bake. The nuts were lightly roasted by putting them in a pan and shoving it in the oven a few seconds, then mashing them a little with a mortar. Pie handling was a challenge since there was no sauce for the cheese to stick to, and the dough was quite slack, but I managed. I believe the original rosa donít have fior di latte, but maybe Iíll try a little white sauce next time instead. ęLess is moreĽ, but it is difficult to restrain oneself when it comes to parmeggiano. I will also try adding the onion post bake. It loses some zing in the oven, and I like the slightly crunchy texture as fresh. A version with pine kernels would probably be good too. My GF said this became one of her favorites.

I estimated the balls to having risen around 1.6-1.7x. They couldíve gone a bit longer. Also removed them from the fridge two hours before opening since they looked to be going a little slow. 16 hours bulk, 8 hours in balls. Donít think I couldíve left them longer in balls, especially if they were a bit more fermented. 254g balls and 28 cm/11 in baked size.

I donít know if I have mentioned a trick I came up with some time ago to dry out the balls a little. Since they sit on wood, but inside a plastic box they get a sticky surface. I used to uncover them 20 minutes before, but found out that I can use the exhaust from the oven instead. It has a fan that cools the chassis, and the right side where the air is pushed out has a perfect little flow of air that I hold the ball in front of to get rid of the stickiness.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #189 on: June 28, 2021, 03:38:15 PM »
These look great though, even if you were not happy with the flavor.
Alex

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #190 on: July 01, 2021, 04:37:08 AM »
Breakfast margherita today. Testing the new starter. It would have been perfect around 2AM, so it sat in the fridge four hours then back in 15C overnight. Surprisingly strong after being in ball 27 hours, which was interesting. Tasted overfermented, but it was good. Need more starter for a 24H dough. It wasnít as bubbly as I would have expected, but anything about this dough can be at least partially attributed to the time in jail. Refridgeratos kill.

0 h - 17:00 - Mix and S&F the next two hours every 30 minutes. Into cooler at 15C.
15 h - 08:00 - Balled. Saw at this point that it didnít have as much activity as Iíd like.
26 h - 19:00 - Not ready. Maybe 1.3-1.4x. Put it in the fridge.
30 h - 23:00 - Back into cooler.
40 h - 09:00 - Bake.

Strianese tomatoes, quite good. Making the sauce 1-2 hours before using makes a difference.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2021, 04:40:59 AM by Heikjo »
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #191 on: July 02, 2021, 03:32:53 AM »
Nice looking pie!
Same recipe as previous one? What kind of flour?
You say "new starter", I'm curious: Made from scratch, or did you purchase it?

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #192 on: July 02, 2021, 07:02:34 AM »
Nice looking pie! though
Same recipe as previous one? What kind of flour?
You say "new starter", I'm curious: Made from scratch, or did you purchase it?
Same base recipe as my usual SD doughs, but Iíll need to tune in the SD amount. Caputo Pizzeria, 62% HR, 2.5% salt, 15C water. Mixed by hand and some S&F/kneading at 30 minute intervals the next couple of hours. I think Iíll stick to hand mixing for now.

I havenít been too happy with my starter recently. It works quite well in bread, but thereís been something off in the pizzas. I believe it has perhaps been too acidic since it seemed to break down the dough more than I expected at different levels of fermentation. I also got a gum line, even on other kinds of pizzas, that I didnít recall having before. I made a new with all rye a few weeks ago and now use that exclusively. I could make a levain with a different flour, but so far Iíve just used the rye starter directly. Only made that one so far, so I canít say too much on the differences yet, but that test seemed to indicate that it behaved differently. I'll start to use the pluviometer again to make it easier to tune in.

I got one dough in the cooler now, which is another test with a different flour. Inspired by others in here using more easily accessible flour in their NP doughs, I have made one with Regal VŚrhvete, which I used to feed my old starter and I often use in bread. The ingredients list says it only has wheat and ascorbic acid. The main goal of trying different flours is to achieve a softer crust, or just a better result altogether. Caputo is more expensive, bunt in the total cost for a NP pizza, it's not that much. Still, if I can use a more easily available flour that also cost less, it's worth a shot. I may also try some of the flours you experiment with. I have used a Petra flour before, and IIRC it was pretty good. I think it was more expensive than Caputo though.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #193 on: July 02, 2021, 09:19:58 AM »
Sounds fun. Looking forward to hearing about your flour pursuits!

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #194 on: July 03, 2021, 08:10:05 AM »
Welcome back Heine!

I was wondering what happened to you, but happy to hear that everything is ok.

I'm also very absent from the forum, and keep on trying to catch up with the backlog and maybe even post some.  Sometimes it's a struggle, there are a lot of posts on this forum! :D
Jack

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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #195 on: July 03, 2021, 11:57:19 AM »
I should have posted my intention for a hiatus, but didnít think of it and it was kinda spontaneous. Getting a daughter two years ago was mainly what prompted the pause to focus on family and everything else. These days I have gotten back into the pizza groove and look forward to experiments. Things are of course busier now than before, but of all the forums Iíve been frequenting. PM is one I want to prioritize.

I havenít read all posts in your topic in detail yet, but seen some interesting things that Iíll have to try out. Particularly oven management and bottom heat. Very useful having other members using the same oven.

Made a dough today with my typical recipe, but upped SD to 4% to try making it fit for a 24 h dough. Itís 30į C today, so things may be moving faster than usual, but I think it should be fine for use anytime between breakfast and evening tomorrow.

I also tried something new with my spy. Will post some photos after baking.

The dough with my usual bread flour was fine, but nothing special that attempt. It seemed very nicely fermented  and behaved perfectly. Compared to Caputo I think it may have been slower to ferment. I took it out to 27į C RT well before baking to get it there. The result had more of a gummy texture than Caputo. Softness and browning was pretty similar.

I made a Rosa-like with what I had available. Creme fraiche sauce, Jarlsberg (gouda like), some leftover mozzarella and a little parmiggiano, then pistachio and red onion post bake. I didnít bother pulling out the mandolin, so they were too thick. I liked the post bake onions, but GF preferred pre bake. Perhaps a combination next time. Thinner ones would probably work better post bake too. If they are really thin, the few seconds from adding to eating will soften then up a bit and reduce the sting.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2021, 11:59:19 AM by Heikjo »
Heine
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Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #196 on: July 04, 2021, 04:06:38 PM »
62% HR, 4% SD, 29 h in 15 C. Need a little more SD for 24 hours, but 29 is fine. It's actually better since I usually feed my starter around 10-11 AM and PM. Mixed at 11 AM and baked 4 PM next day.

I have wanted to do this with the spy for some time, and my recently purchased Weck jars I use for my starter and bread levain was a perfect match. I was tired of having to get the spy into the pluviometer, getting the air out, making it fit in my small wine cooler, throwing away the spy and cleaning the pluviometer. Not to mention I've already broken two pluviometers and this one also has a crack.

This time I used a 160 ml glass Weck jar instead. It's easy to work with, takes up less space, I can cook the dough and it is easier to clean. The spy is 62 ml, so I put on a rubber band to indicate 2x rise, or 124 ml. It's not linear as the pluviometer, and doesn't have indication lines, but it tells me how far I am from baking. The jar has some text and symbols that I suppose I can use to read how much it has risen by placing it on a scale and add water until 1.25, 1.5, 1.75 and 2x increase in volume and making some notes.

The ball opened well, behaved nicely and the pizza was good. I could add a sprinkle of salt on top. Used the mandolin today and the thin slices of onion gives a nice pop to the taste. I added half pre bake and half post bake.

I got some work to do on dough and oven management. I still get a gum line, at least on some areas, that I need to figure out.

I'm not entirely happy with the baking process. There is sometimes a feeling of it wanting a bit more time in the oven, but both top and bottom is already pretty far along. I changed the method a little today by launching earlier to get a less burnt bottom. That I achieved, but the top got less heat, which isn't a good thing. Still got work to do to find the balance between it all.

Jack (amolapizza) had some ideas that I'll try, fi. using lower HR, and I had one myself about trying to use more ambient heat than radiant heat for baking to ensure the entire pie is evenly cooked, not just the rim and bottom. It could lead to longer bake time, but possibly with a better baked pizza and better result.

That may also be an application where a thermostat bypass could have an effect. Stone temp is still something to consider though. I have thought about making a steel place with some feet that I could insert during warming up to avoid the upper element heating up the stone too much. I don't know how effective such a shield would be, but maybe it could bring the lower heat element back into play and use that more to heat up the stone.

I also baked the spy as a little treat to the chef. That's one reason I used the glass jar. I don't like throwing away food, and that dough has the same fermentation as the main dough, so it feels wrong throwing it away. When my starter amount is dialled in I normally don't use a spy either, but very useful for experimentation. It wasn't turned during baking, but even such a small one sitting in the middle of the stone has a noticeable difference in coloration. The front of the oven is always cooler than the back. I could maybe try launching it further in, but that brings the back edge into play and I really don't want anything thrown up against the back wall or slipping past the edge of the stone.

I will try to get one, maybe two more pizzas in next week, but on Thursday I leave for work and with vacation after that I won't be back home until middle of August, and that's just for a few days. I hope to make something in August, but there won't be much until early September actually. Quite a long time now that I think of it. I'll probably make some pizza during the vacation, but that's not at home, so no Neapolitan. I'll spend some time researching a few things instead. Oven management, gum line, dough handling etc.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #197 on: July 07, 2021, 03:15:20 PM »
Last pizza in my P134H for some time. Maybe Iíll be able to squeeze in a batch in two weeks, but probably not SD. This one experienced a bit of everything. Mixer, hand kneading, rests, S&F, CF. I tried one with 58% HR to see if that could make a more evenly cooked pie than 62%. Not the best dough to judge by for many reasons, but it did feel better cooked. It went slower than my last 29 h dough, despite having 0.5% more starter, but maybe the HR had a play in that. It would be ready too late so I put it in the fridge when it was around 1.5x-ish. Let it warm up five hours before baking today. That meant way too much time on wood and it had a quite hard crust on the bottom and up the sides.

Another rosa and it was still good pizza. I had some thoughts while preparing it that maybe fermenting on wood could have a small negative effect compared to plastic. That it dried it out and changed some characteristics. Most pizzerias seems to let the balls sit on plastic. The upside is less need for bench flour, but if the Naples places bathe them in flour before cooking and still make fantastic pizza, mybe itís not such a bad thing. Iíll try some more fermenting on plastic later. This ball spent way too long on wood obviously and normally itís just a little dry, perhaps still a bit moist. Especially now that I havenít tunes things in, I should stick to plastic.

Some thoughts on future plans.

Lievito madre/mother yeast

I have read a bit about this style of wild yeast with lower HR and I want to try it out. Itís a wild yeast starter like sourdough, but with less acidity, which can produce less sour results. Some even find it to be a little sweet and it seems to be favored in Italy over a wetter sourdough, particularly for sweet pastry. Iím mostly interested in how it would work for pizza, but it also sounds like a good match for cinnamon rolls. There seems to be more rigamarole with creating and maybe maintain it, but I havenít delved far enough into the details yet. A potential upside is longer fermentation without the dough becoming too degraded.

The oven

I just said I didnít have plans for mods, but I want to take a look at some less intrusive ones. I have been inspired yet again by gsansí topic. I have already modified the thermostat to get more heat out, and I will look into the following:

* Adding a steel frame to raise the stone closer to the heat element. I took some measurements and can maybe make something at work. Doesnít seem to be much to it. I know Palepizza sell them, but Iíd rather avoid the cost.

* Adding a steel shield to the door to make it reflect heat better and remove the need to turn the pies. I donít know how this would impact the bake. Those I have read about who have installed a shield has mostly been people with an older version of the oven with a different door, but I would like to find out if stainless steel would reflect better than glass. I might find answers to this on the Italian or French forum, but if anyone here got some input, shout out. As I think about this I keep wondering if itís actually hottest in the back or front. On the small extra pie I made today, which was never turned, one side furthest back in the oven had less color. I need to take a better look at the element placement.

* Hook up a bypass switch for the upper element to control the heat better.

* Add an extra thermal probe hooked up to an external, digital temperature measurement tool for better feedback on the temperatures.

Other stuff

* Study the oven a bit more and see if I could gain something by making smaller pies. Also find best place to bake.

* Fix the out of position upper element. It doesnít sit quite as it should in the bracket and has either always been a bit lower on one part in the back or deformed under heat. Maybe a small detail, but still.

* Still got that gum line. With a new starter and not that long fermentation time Iím wondering if itís a result of too thin skins. Canít quite understand that either since I got more mass for a 28 cm/11 in pie than most I across (254 g).  I could maybe be leaving too much dough in the rim. I can compare with some IDY pies made the same way. That would at least eliminate the sourdough.

* Still not sure where my doughs are at relative to other hand mixers, Naples doughs or spiral mixers. As a hand mixed dough I donít think itís that far off being fine, but every part that can be improved on should be investigated.

Happy summer.  :chef:
« Last Edit: July 07, 2021, 03:23:52 PM by Heikjo »
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Heikjo

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #198 on: September 18, 2021, 08:11:35 AM »
Finally some neapolitan again. IDY this time.

The fermentation was slow, so I moved them to RT after 15 hours and back into the cooler an hour before bake. Total fermentation 23 hours. I forgot to activate the IDY, which could be a contributing factor. Iíll do that next time and see what happens.

It went quite well and I reached around 2x rise. Some of the better IDY pies Iíve made and Iíll try some more with IDY. One motivation is to lower the acidity in the pies, particularly ones with tomato sauce. Hereís also one from some other day with chantarelles that were pre-browned in some butter. Very tasty!

These felt more evenly baked and with less gummy parts/gum line than my usual SD pies.
Heine
Oven: Effeuno P134H

Offline Arne_Jervell

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Re: Neapolitan with sourdough in Norway
« Reply #199 on: September 18, 2021, 10:23:20 AM »
Nice to see you posting again! Really nice colors I think especially the cornicione on the margherita.

BTW: the acidity level of an SD-dough depends on many things but certainly on the culture. If you prefer low acidity SD dough, and if you live in the Oslo area, give me a PM and we can arrange for you to have some of my Salvatore.

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