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Author Topic: What effect does % of starter have?  (Read 2634 times)

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #60 on: January 18, 2018, 08:49:22 AM »
I made more than a thousand in the last year using 3-4% .... if we want to count...  ;-)

Amazingly predictable results and from the feedback I get, the best crust most people have ever had.

Before anyone tries to say that it works for me because I do it as a business, I will point out that it was the success I had as a home baker using this method that gave me the confidence to deploy it as a business process.

You are obviously an expert and it sounds like 3-4% is working well for you. Most people who ask the question "How much starter should I use" are not at your level of experience and therefore that is one of the reasons I recommend a higher level of inoculation.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline the1mu

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #61 on: January 18, 2018, 08:50:07 AM »

I have posted comments on my research results however and I will not post citations.  As you can see here there is a lot of anger and I'd prefer not to engage at that level.


You do realize the reason there is “anger” is because you refuse to engage in dialogue that involves citations? If you’d simply cite the things you are reading, we wouldn’t be here.

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #62 on: January 18, 2018, 09:03:45 AM »

By the way, your homegrown culture started completely “under-inoculated” and yet has grown into a lively active culture. Your concerns are unwarranted.


It took a many many weeks of reading, measuring, changing etc. to grow my levain before I used it to make dough. I doubt many people want to or are patient enough go through that for that long. Higher inoculations will provide more consistent and reliable results for most people.


You don’t typically give a time and temp, you simply say “20% is the best”, period.


Incorrect


[Edited by Steve to remove political reference]
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 10:53:55 AM by Steve »
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #63 on: January 18, 2018, 09:06:52 AM »
You do realize the reason there is “anger” is because you refuse to engage in dialogue that involves citations? If you’d simply cite the things you are reading, we wouldn’t be here.

Sorry. Had a typo. Fixed it in the my post.

Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #64 on: January 18, 2018, 09:08:18 AM »
It doesn’t stop you from posting in other threads...

Once again might be considered stalking.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #65 on: January 18, 2018, 09:15:29 AM »
Please. Do you receive enjoyment out of this fighting ? Maybe just go see an action movie  :-D


Or go to Pizza Town on , I think Rt  46. Watch great pizza makers make great pizza. No ego. No nonsense. Just. Great. Pizza.


Which at the end of the day is what we should be about.


So maybe leave ego and nonsense behind. And just focus on learning all you can about great pizza, and sharing what you know , with some grace and humility.


Trust me, you're not helping NJ's reputation. 


 


 
« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:21:29 AM by Jersey Pie Boy »

Offline the1mu

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #66 on: January 18, 2018, 09:17:26 AM »
Most of us are here to grow in our knowledge. Please contribute by posting useful things such as links and citations that have molded your thoughts and processes.

Offline mitchjg

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #67 on: January 18, 2018, 10:47:09 AM »
Typically I don't recommend the 7 day cf to other. Its what I use.  Remember this is with the levain I grew. ie I'm not using what others are using however it could be similar.  I think 2-5 days cf and 2-4 hr is is a good place to start for most people.

Perhaps true (7 day recommendation) and I hope true for the future.  2-5 days is not as much of a disservice to members, especially newbies, but it remains a significant disservice - only marginally less poor.  The further one goes out from 1 day or maybe 2, the greater the likelihood of problems with sugars, gluten degradation, coloring, texture, etc. 

A reasonable recommendation might be one that conforms to the typical companion to "20% - 40%" which would be to ferment the dough at RT the same day and, perhaps, put in the fridge overnight.

Recommending an outlier to a newbie that has substantial risk to success is a disservice and you know it.

I do a 7 day cf with a 2 hour rt. 20% levain. Easy to do the dough Sunday morning for next Saturday's pies.

Perhaps you do make this recommendation.  Don't you think that you are implying this regimen as a recommendation?  Or, do you want to try to tell us "well, I was only saying what I do.  I was not saying that someone else should." ?   Uh huh.

20%-40% is what is recommended by ABI (American Baking Institute), King Authur flour and many other well recognized institutions.

On the other end, you made an open ended, time and temperature context free, recommendation.  Seems like a disservice to me.   But, again, maybe you were just mentioning your learnings and not intending it to be a recommendation.  Right?

- given you seem to have respect for the recommendations from KA and given they specifically recommended against a several day cold ferment (5 was an example), then don't you think you should not be recommending regimens like that?

******************************************

IMHO dismissing recommendations because “they are  bread makers and not pizza makers” is simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.


Given that remark, I have repeatedly invited you to lead the way into a deep dive into numbers.  Some might say you are the one unwilling to do a deep dive into numbers.   Lots off willingness from me and, I am sure, several others.  Beyond numbers, some would say the lack of citations seems to be simply a poor excuse for not being able to credibly back up items you are challenged on.

*************
You are likely going to make the pizza you believe you like no matter what anyone says.  The fact that you seem to enjoy it is a good thing for you.  Enjoy.

My ask is for you to think about reconsidering making some recommendations - the enthusiastic promotion of multi day cold ferments to others, especially newbies.  I am hoping that, with objective reflection of the factual feedback you have received here, you will find that your own experience/desires does not imply that they are worthy of recommendation to others, especially those that lack experience.
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline the1mu

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #68 on: January 18, 2018, 10:51:06 AM »
Hey Mitch....

I think that is stalking man, and you should probably back off!!!!!  :-\

Just a friendly observation!  ;D

Offline mitchjg

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #69 on: January 18, 2018, 10:57:01 AM »
Hey Mitch....

I think that is stalking man, and you should probably back off!!!!!  :-\

Just a friendly observation!  ;D

Nah, I have better things to do,  no need to be paranoid - "Some people would say", I am just backing up my assertions with "useful links."
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

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Offline psedillo

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #70 on: January 18, 2018, 11:18:34 AM »
"Some people would say", I am just backing up my assertions with "useful links."

Man, I'm trying to drink coffee and my morning intake of pizza learning -- and you lay humor on me as I'm trying to take a sip. Now that was seriously funny!

Online bradtri

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #71 on: January 18, 2018, 11:26:29 AM »
You are obviously an expert

Hardly!! I consider myself advanced but nowhere near the level of many of the experts on this forum. 

I can only be thankful that when I was a newbie that I wasn't ensnared by one of your recommendations and was instead gently helped along the path to making great pizza.
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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #72 on: January 18, 2018, 12:00:02 PM »

Please. Do you receive enjoyment out of this fighting ? Maybe just go see an action movie  :-D


Its hilarious that if you question what some believe here as "The Truth" how wound up and irritated they become. We're just talking about water, flour, salt, some goop that bubbles when it's warm and making it into pizza.
I like 20% others enjoy using "The Model".


Or go to Pizza Town on , I think Rt  46. Watch great pizza makers make great pizza. No ego. No nonsense. Just. Great. Pizza.


Looks like a great place and its close but were making pizza tonight

http://slice.seriouseats.com/2011/01/pizza-town-usa-elmwood-park-nj.html

I drive past this place. I need to stop here when Im not in a hurry.

http://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/05/pizzaland-the-pizza-place-in-the-sopranos-opening-credits-north-arlington-nj.html


Trust me, you're not helping NJ's reputation.

We're in a much more remarkable place than Ive realized if my opinion on levain is tarnishing our good states reputation.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #73 on: January 18, 2018, 12:05:41 PM »
Hardly!! I consider myself advanced but nowhere near the level of many of the experts on this forum. 

I stand by my first assessment. You are an expert.


I can only be thankful that when I was a newbie that I wasn't ensnared ...

I guess you could call sharing knowledge and experience "ensnaring" but I think there are better ways to describe it.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #74 on: January 18, 2018, 12:09:55 PM »
Higher inoculations will provide more consistent and reliable results for most people.

[Edited by Steve to remove political reference]

Do you know what inoculation means in reference to sourdough?

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #75 on: January 18, 2018, 12:19:59 PM »
Do you know what inoculation means in reference to sourdough?

Yes but please don't let that stop you from sharing.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #76 on: January 18, 2018, 12:56:25 PM »
Hides under his desk whenever asked to back up his claims made in statements like these:

Hardly true.

Who do you think you're kidding? Let's cut the BS. Several things are blindly obvious:

1) Your "research" won't stand up to scrutiny. If I'm wrong, post it. Let's see it - no more of this nonsense that "I have posted comments on my research results however I will not post citations." Claiming you can support your claims but refusing to do so? Do you really believe that should be taken seriously?

2) You attacked the models out of anger and jealousy making claims that not only do you believe they don't work but also that you know specifically why they don't work. In reality, you don't have the first clue how the models work, and now you're stuck between a rock and a hard place. You can't support your claims and you refuse to admit you're wrong, so you hide under your desk. If I'm wrong, let's see some specifics; no more dishonest posts like "I have given specific reasons several times."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #77 on: January 18, 2018, 03:10:17 PM »
I have posted comments on my research results however I will not post citations.  As you can see here there is a lot of anger and I'd prefer not to engage at that level.

Nice selective editing BTW. Full context tells quite a different story: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=49654.msg501508#msg501508

There is no anger, at least not from me. There is you trying to BS, your BS getting exposed over and over, and you hiding under your desk rather than face the music. You won't engage not because you "prefer" not to but rather because you simply can't.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #78 on: January 18, 2018, 03:11:04 PM »

Ok Ill take the bait... here goes


Who do you think you're kidding? Let's cut the BS. Several things are blindly obvious:

1) Your "research" won't stand up to scrutiny. If I'm wrong, post it. Let's see it - no more of this nonsense that "I have posted comments on my research results however I will not post citations." Claiming you can support your claims but refusing to do so? Do you really believe that should be taken seriously?

Incorrect. Initially I was very interested in having a discussion on the subject. I'm no longer willing to do this. Im comfortable with what I have found and Im practicing it making my pies.


2) You attacked the models out of anger and jealousy ...

Incorrect. However this comment is revealing.


2)
 In reality, you don't have the first clue how the models work, and now you're stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Hilarious and incorrect.

You don't know the level of my education and experience.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #79 on: January 18, 2018, 03:12:25 PM »
Hilarious and incorrect.

You don't know the level of my education and experience.

I know that every comment you made about them is wrong.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

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