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Offline xicanopride

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air pockets in my dough balls
« on: January 17, 2018, 01:57:34 PM »
Hi all, newbie here.  First of all, thank you all so much for your insights and advice.  It's been a huge help.
Sorry, if this has been addressed before, but I did a search and couldn't find it.  With my 2 most recent attempts, I've ended up with a lot of air pockets when balling my dough.  I've been overall happy with the taste, but this leads to some thinner areas and even tearing when pressing it out.  Here is the procedure I've used:
Tipo 00 Caputo flour
59% hydration
3% salt
.032% IDY
hand knead x 10 min, let rest 5 min, then hand knead again x 10 min
bulk ferment x 14 hours @ 70 deg
Ball dough and let rest another 5 hours @ 70 deg.

Thoughts?

My suspicion is that I'm kneading too much?

Thanks in advance.


Offline yarbrough462

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #1 on: January 17, 2018, 02:07:16 PM »
Hi all, newbie here.  First of all, thank you all so much for your insights and advice.  It's been a huge help.
Sorry, if this has been addressed before, but I did a search and couldn't find it.  With my 2 most recent attempts, I've ended up with a lot of air pockets when balling my dough.  I've been overall happy with the taste, but this leads to some thinner areas and even tearing when pressing it out.  Here is the procedure I've used:
Tipo 00 Caputo flour
59% hydration
3% salt
.032% IDY
hand knead x 10 min, let rest 5 min, then hand knead again x 10 min
bulk ferment x 14 hours @ 70 deg
Ball dough and let rest another 5 hours @ 70 deg.

Thoughts?

My suspicion is that I'm kneading too much?

Thanks in advance.

Air pockets are good but with the tearing and thin spots, it sounds like your dough could be over fermented.  The time and temp seem in line with what you need though...How are you opening your dough?  What is your dough temp after it is done?  How many pies are you making at a time?     
« Last Edit: January 17, 2018, 02:12:19 PM by yarbrough462 »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #2 on: January 17, 2018, 02:18:43 PM »
Try it without the bulk ferment- justy go straight to balls. If it's a bit too extensible when opening the balls, try 7 hours bulk and 12 hours balls.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline vtsteve

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #3 on: January 17, 2018, 02:19:01 PM »
Are you using bench flour while balling? If so, try without -- they'll seal better, with less effort, and it will reduce the chance of internal voids.

How much are you working them while balling? It shouldn't take more than a couple squeezes and a roll on the bench.
In grams we trust.
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Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #4 on: January 17, 2018, 02:41:35 PM »
thank you guys.  I'll try your suggestions this weekend and let you know my results.

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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #5 on: January 17, 2018, 03:28:52 PM »
Is there a possibility that you might be trying to ball the dough too tightly? When I make bread I follow a procedure similar to what you are doing, I ferment the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, and invert it onto a lightly floured surface, I when slap (spanking the dough is what my wife calls it) a few times to degas and relax it, I then ball it while incorporating as little work into the dough as possible and this works fine for me. When opening the dough into a skin try the same procedure. If the dough ball doesn't deflate to some extent when you begin opening it into a skin the dough is either not yet ready to be opened or it might be that it has been over fermented and now getting "bucky", a condition where the dough is no longer extensible but is too elastic to be opened, and if you should succeed in opening it into a skin it will exhibit pronounced memory/snap-back characteristics.
Just a thought.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #6 on: January 17, 2018, 04:00:20 PM »
It sounds like no one thinks my kneading process is too much then...
Maybe it's in the balling process? 
Going by what a couple have said, I think I might be putting in too much work to ball the dough. 
Typically I will fold it under on all 4 sides at least 2-3 times, then roll on the counter. 
Could that be the problem?

Offline the1mu

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2018, 07:13:23 PM »
Youíre not kneading too much.

One other thing to look at in addition to all the things above is your FDT (final dough temp). When I hand knead, my dough temp tends to go real high because I have hot hands.  Usually you want a FDT around mid-70ís (as an over general starting point)

Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2018, 07:25:48 PM »
Is there a possibility that you might be trying to ball the dough too tightly? When I make bread I follow a procedure similar to what you are doing, I ferment the dough in a lightly oiled bowl, and invert it onto a lightly floured surface, I when slap (spanking the dough is what my wife calls it) a few times to degas and relax it, I then ball it while incorporating as little work into the dough as possible and this works fine for me. When opening the dough into a skin try the same procedure. If the dough ball doesn't deflate to some extent when you begin opening it into a skin the dough is either not yet ready to be opened or it might be that it has been over fermented and now getting "bucky", a condition where the dough is no longer extensible but is too elastic to be opened, and if you should succeed in opening it into a skin it will exhibit pronounced memory/snap-back characteristics.
Just a thought.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

It sounds like no one thinks my kneading process is too much then...
Maybe it's in the balling process? 
Going by what a couple have said, I think I might be putting in too much work to ball the dough. 
Typically I will fold it under on all 4 sides at least 2-3 times, then roll on the counter. 
Could that be the problem?

Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2018, 07:26:50 PM »
Youíre not kneading too much.

One other thing to look at in addition to all the things above is your FDT (final dough temp). When I hand knead, my dough temp tends to go real high because I have hot hands.  Usually you want a FDT around mid-70ís (as an over general starting point)

Thank you.  I'll check the temp too.

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Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2018, 07:27:28 PM »
Are you using bench flour while balling? If so, try without -- they'll seal better, with less effort, and it will reduce the chance of internal voids.

How much are you working them while balling? It shouldn't take more than a couple squeezes and a roll on the bench.


Typically I will fold it under on all 4 sides at least 2-3 times, then roll on the counter. 
Could that be the problem?

Offline xicanopride

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #11 on: January 17, 2018, 07:29:26 PM »
Air pockets are good but with the tearing and thin spots, it sounds like your dough could be over fermented.  The time and temp seem in line with what you need though...How are you opening your dough?  What is your dough temp after it is done?  How many pies are you making at a time?     

The problem is when I'm forming the balls, not when opening.  I'm getting a lot of air bubbles on the surface of the dough during the balling process.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2018, 07:41:36 PM »
Youíre not kneading too much.

Per the Dough Doctor: "Almost impossible to over mix a dough (referencing gluten development) with any of the home mixers and flat out impossible to do it by hand mixing."

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47633.msg478205#msg478205
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2018, 08:52:08 PM »
It does sound like you are putting a lot of work into rounding the dough balls, I fold the dough three, maybe four times at the most and then finish rounding on the counter top. With that said, my dough NEVER leaves the counter top for the entire rounding process. If you pick the dough up during rounding it is much easier to round the dough too tightly. I've never worried about the gas bubbles in the dough when making pizza, bread dough yes, but not pizza dough as those bubbles will help to give me the open, porous crumb structure in the finished crust that I'm looking for. If you go to my web site <www.doughdoctor.com> you will be able to view one of my videos/How to Make Pizza Dough/Part-2 and see a demonstration on dough rounding. In the video you can see how we do not round the dough ball very tightly.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: air pockets in my dough balls
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2018, 12:51:27 AM »
The problem is when I'm forming the balls, not when opening.  I'm getting a lot of air bubbles on the surface of the dough during the balling process.

Those pockets can be desireable.  I asked about opening technique because you mentioned the tearing and thin spots when pressing out.  Those can be caused but opening technique as well.

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