A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Author Topic: What effect does % of starter have?  (Read 2633 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23219
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #40 on: January 16, 2018, 05:38:25 PM »
Some might see your multiple posts like this to me as harassment and/or stalking.

You really need thicker skin if you going to come into a forum like this and try to BS longtime members who know a heck of a lot more than you do.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline HarryHaller73

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1398
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #41 on: January 16, 2018, 05:45:22 PM »
Maybe, maybe not. It depends.

I'm sure there's a <2% outlier condition.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23219
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #42 on: January 16, 2018, 05:50:02 PM »
I'm sure there's a <2% outlier condition.

2% or 20%, it's a matter of the the specific culture an workflow.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #43 on: January 16, 2018, 05:50:34 PM »
You really need thicker skin if you going to come into a forum like this and try to BS longtime members who know a heck of a lot more than you do.

If you say so.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline HBolte

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2569
  • Location: Detroit, MI
    • 500px
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #44 on: January 16, 2018, 05:55:37 PM »
2% or 20%, it's a matter of the the specific culture an workflow.

Exactly. I bake mostly SD bread, I can easily make it very sour or not sour at all. Naturally fermented bread does equate to sour bread.
Hans

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23219
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #45 on: January 16, 2018, 05:58:07 PM »
If you say so.

It's actually you that say so.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #46 on: January 16, 2018, 07:04:06 PM »

So I prefer to use 20% others might use more or less. Doesn't seem to be a conflict here


Sad how a discussion about 20% may or may not be OK depending on the context results in you removing the context to try to justify things.

Sure, she said 20% could be fine.  And, her context was for a same day dough or one fermented in the fridge for 1 day.  She very specifically reccomended against 20% with a multi day cold ferment.  For me, that is central to the "conflict."

It is not "20% is a bad idea" so there is no reason to argue about that.  It is about 20% with the multi day cold ferment.  The one that others I and others are raising a red flag about and the one that an expert at King Arthur (which you seem to be the one lending great credibility to them) said is not recommended.

But, you knew this already.  This was not even "nice try" - sorry.


I have.



No, you have not - at least nothing I have seen.  You were asked to provide the specific citations that you found from your internet searches. 

Now, maybe you did and i did not see it nor have others.  So, we have two choices that I see.  We can spend a lot of time going through a history of your posts one by one and waste a lot of time and energy OR you can simply prove it with a citation.  Is it really so much to ask you to provide a citation?

And, of course, if you do not and we do review your posts, then someone might be accused of stalking. (or "some people would say it was stalking but I did not say that")


There are equally as many if not more for a glob of 1-5% starter dough sitting on the counter for 12+ hours. I would consider this "under inoculated". We are doing an "artificial induction of immunity against various infectious diseases" with the known culture. Too little leaves a great opportunity for unknown cultures to grow producing unwanted and unreproducible results



Well, hundreds if not thousands of doughs have been made this way by forum members with great consistent results that were both wanted and reproducible.   Maybe the risk is higher than the risk of a comet hitting the planet today - but it is pretty darn low.  A vibrant healthy starter introduced at that level is quite powerful.

*******************

BTW, what happened to the deep dive into numbers.  You thought it was being avoided and I invited you to lead the way.

« Last Edit: January 16, 2018, 07:41:00 PM by mitchjg »
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23219
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #47 on: January 16, 2018, 08:03:37 PM »
Well, hundreds if not thousands of doughs have been made this way by forum members with great consistent results that were both wanted and reproducible.   Maybe the risk is higher than the risk of a comet hitting the planet today - but it is pretty darn low.  A vibrant healthy starter introduced at that level is quite powerful.

More like 10's of thousands here. And 10's of millions in Europe...
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline mitchjg

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4838
  • Location: Oakland, CA
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #48 on: January 16, 2018, 08:06:19 PM »
More like 10's of thousands here. And 10's of millions in Europe...

Oh my - there must be a plague with all of that contamination!
Mitch

“We hate math,” says 4 in 10 – a majority of Americans

Offline the1mu

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1185
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #49 on: January 16, 2018, 08:07:58 PM »

Right, I would agree and I share this. However I often see "pizza is not bread" posted  and I would disagree. Pizza dough is flour, water and a culture (for the most part). Same for bread. However some of their objectives are clearly different.


As Peter as already pointed out, their differences out number their similarities. They are for all intents and purposes, different animals!

Quote

I have.

The one time I have seen you say, “I will post references later” was in another thread and a few posts later you specifically said something to the affect of “I withdraw, go do your own searches”.

Quote

There are equally as many if not more for a glob of 1-5% starter dough sitting on the counter for 12+ hours. I would consider this "under inoculated". We are doing an "artificial induction of immunity against various infectious diseases" with the known culture. Too little leaves a great opportunity for unknown cultures to grow producing unwanted and unreproducible results

This is flat out wrong. It is even common practice in many books to discard all but a fraction of your starter and then feed at normal amounts. And what happens is the culture grows perfectly and a predictable and expected rate. Your “concerns” are groundless and unless you have an actual reference to cite why this is a bad idea, the experience of the masses trumps your doomsday prediction.

By the way, your homegrown culture started completely “under-inoculated” and yet has grown into a lively active culture. Your concerns are unwarranted.

Quote
My experience has been 20% levain as a constant provides a good point to be successful.


I typically give a time and well as the percentage of levain when I answer the question so this really isn't an issue for me

With my homegrown levain 20% @ 7 days cf provides me with a dough that has plenty of activity left to rise during the rt time and a great tasting pizza that both my wife and others enjoy.

You don’t typically give a time and temp, you simply say “20% is the best”, period.

And if you happen to notice, even what you just posted is at best contradictory.

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline the1mu

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1185
What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2018, 08:08:57 PM »
More like 10's of thousands here. And 10's of millions in Europe...

Is this including the 10,000 years of history of sourdough? Or just the ones in the last year?

Online bradtri

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 732
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2018, 08:24:38 PM »
Is this including the 10,000 years of history of sourdough? Or just the ones in the last year?
I made more than a thousand in the last year using 3-4% .... if we want to count...  ;-)

Amazingly predictable results and from the feedback I get, the best crust most people have ever had.

Before anyone tries to say that it works for me because I do it as a business, I will point out that it was the success I had as a home baker using this method that gave me the confidence to deploy it as a business process.
A Taste of Naples Pizza
www.atasteofnaplespizza.com
https://www.facebook.com/ATasteofNaplesPizza/
"Let Us Bring A Taste of Naples To Your Next Party"

Offline TXCraig1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 23219
  • Location: Houston, TX
  • Pizza is not bread.
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2018, 08:41:53 PM »
BTW, what happened to the deep dive into numbers.  You thought it was being avoided and I invited you to lead the way.

Funny isn't it. The guy who writes:

simply a poor excuse for not wanting to do a deep dive into the numbers.

Hides under his desk whenever asked to back up his claims made in statements like these: 

you found a few papers that had couple simple formulas, put them in a spreadsheet and now you are often incorrectly interpreting those results and likely incorrectly using the formulas

The growth formula that was copied out of a research paper and put into a spreadsheet and posted as Gospel I believe is doing a great disservice to the forum memebers.

Be careful with the "models" as they are only a highly simplified portrayal of a rather complex system of reactions. I believe that their premises are also suspect.

"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Jackitup

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 9761
  • Age: 62
  • Location: Hastings, MN
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2018, 09:44:57 PM »
Jr07, great question, hang around, all is good here. Do your own experiments and give your feedback!!
Jon

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”            -Mark Twain

If you don't think you're getting what you should out of life.....maybe you're getting what you deserve       -the Root Beer Lady

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 26994
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2018, 09:49:30 PM »
I was wondering today if I could uncover how long the naturally leavened pizza dough at Franco Manca is fermented and also the amount of leaven. As previously noted, pizzanapoletana (Marco) was intimately involved in the development of the Franco Manca dough. So I did a Google search. Unsurprisingly, I found articles that said that the dough was a secret but in a few articles I read that the dough was fermented for at least 20 hours and that the starter was from Ischia and was hundreds of years old. My recollection is that in addition to the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures that Marco made available to Sourdoughs International (see the Ischia Culture entry in the Pizza Glossary at https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_i), he also had a third culture that dated back to 1870.

As for the duration of fermentation, more than once Marco mentioned long fermentation times that were consistent with what Franco Manca said it was using. See, for example, the posts at:

Reply 30 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1415.msg13588#msg13588, and

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=861.msg8562#msg8562.

Were I to speculate, given the roughly 20 hours of fermentation, I would say that it is likely that the amount of natural leaven Franco Manca is using is quite small. And since Marco mentioned the 1-5% number so many times on the forum, I think that is likely to be the range at Franco Manca.

I also found this article that highlights Marco’s contribution to the development of the Franco Manca dough and that also makes reference to the geriatric Ischia starter culture used at Franco Manca:

http://metro.co.uk/2008/05/06/franco-manca-is-a-top-pizza-contender-125228/.

I mention all of the above to highlight that a pizzeria like Franco Manca has been able to successfully use a natural leaven in small quantity and 20 or more hours of fermentation and to replicate the process in over 40 locations. That means an enornous number of pizzas. And Marco was highly instrumental in making it all possible.

Peter

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


Offline yarbrough462

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 211
  • Location: San Quirino, Italy
  • An American in Italy
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #55 on: January 18, 2018, 06:56:50 AM »
I wonder why DS won't respond?  I was looking forward to him posting his research and vast experience as a counter-argument to the prediction models...

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #56 on: January 18, 2018, 08:10:51 AM »


Hides under his desk ....

Hardly true.

I wonder why DS won't respond?  I was looking forward to him posting his research and vast experience as a counter-argument to the prediction models...

I have a company to run. Sorry if my posting frequency doesn't meet expectations.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #57 on: January 18, 2018, 08:12:13 AM »
It's actually you that says so.
Fixed it for you and, no.
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

Offline yarbrough462

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 211
  • Location: San Quirino, Italy
  • An American in Italy
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #58 on: January 18, 2018, 08:21:59 AM »
Hardly true.

I have a company to run. Sorry if my posting frequency doesn't meet expectations.

It doesn’t stop you from posting in other threads...

Offline Dangerous Salumi

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 534
  • Location: Few miles west of the George Washington Bridge
  • Using our home grown culture to leaven our dough
Re: What effect does % of starter have?
« Reply #59 on: January 18, 2018, 08:46:06 AM »

Sure, she said 20% could be fine.  And, her context was for a same day dough or one fermented in the fridge for 1 day.  She very specifically reccomended against 20% with a multi day cold ferment.  For me, that is central to the "conflict."


Typically I don't recommend the 7 day cf to other. Its what I use.  Remember this is with the levain I grew. ie I'm not using what others are using however it could be similar.  I think 2-5 days cf and 2-4 hr is is a good place to start for most people.



No, you have not - at least nothing I have seen.  You were asked to provide the specific citations that you found from your internet searches. 


My comment was intended as a caution for you not to believe what you read because it's probably wrong or at best incomplete.

When you can show me where I'm wrong, I'll be all ears. Bring your A-game.

Im not here to argue and I decided Im not going to post my stuff.

I have posted comments on my research results however I will not post citations.  As you can see here there is a lot of anger and I'd prefer not to engage at that level.



Well, hundreds if not thousands of doughs have been made this way by forum members with great consistent results that were both wanted and reproducible.   Maybe the risk is higher than the risk of a comet hitting the planet today - but it is pretty darn low.  A vibrant healthy starter introduced at that level is quite powerful.


If you believe that then please by all means keep sharing with people as I will share my experience with 20% inoculation.

« Last Edit: January 18, 2018, 09:05:16 AM by Dangerous Salumi »
Have a Dangerous day!


“They say that competitive eating is the battleground upon which God and Lucifer wage war for mens souls my friends, and they are right.”  - George Shea, Chairman, Major League Eating

A D V E R T I S E M E N T


 

wordpress