New Haven style

[mattapizza]

I have a number of styles I try to recreate, but if them all New Haven is my favorite. I had a few questions for the community. And I know about Polish Pizza/pizza Gavones but am just curious to see if people have different ideas.

First, has anyone tried both KABF and GM Full Strength and can say whether there is much discernible difference between the two? I know Pepe’s uses the FS but it would be expensive to procure. Maybe KABF is close enough and the method is more important? Just trying to figure out if I’d even notice a difference with the FS. I know flours are not going to be a magic bullet.

I know the usual approach is high hydration like 68% level. My guess is this is due to the dry heat of a coal oven? My options are a home oven with a baking steel and a Koda 16. For these would it be better to go with 60-62% which is my preferred hydration normally?

[Rainier42]

FS is also a malted flour I believe so you may want to consider that.  I think a differentiator of the NH Style is the 68% hydration and I would start with that.

[DannyG]

Timely discussion as I am also starting down this road.

I found this on youtube (there is a part 2 video showing the bake)

He show the formula around 4:20. Hydration is 68%.

There is also this video showing the making of the pies at Pepe's. Watch their technique for opening the dough ball around 1:30.

[mattapizza]

FS is also a malted flour I believe so you may want to consider that.  I think a differentiator of the NH Style is the 68% hydration and I would start with that.

Isn't King Arthur Bread flour also malted?

Yeah, I've done some experiments with 68% hydration. I actually followed the Pizza Gavones recipe for the dough exactly and cooked in my Koda 16. I was running it at 750F on the deck and was disappointed in the lack of crisp. I know this oven is designed for Neapolitan but I figured a super hot stone would help with New Haven style. What I'm thinking is that for crisp bottom it is probably better to bake at a lower temp (600-650) for a longer cook, like 8-10 minutes rather than 4ish. I would use the home oven and my baking steel except that with larger groups of friends and family it is much easier to crank out multiple pies in the Ooni.

[mattapizza]

Timely discussion as I am also starting down this road.

I found this on youtube (there is a part 2 video showing the bake)

He show the formula around 4:20. Hydration is 68%.

There is also this video showing the making of the pies at Pepe's. Watch their technique for opening the dough ball around 1:30.

Yep, I've tried his approach a couple of times. The results were okay, not amazing. That might be an issue on my end. Part of it is probably me trying to figure out a way to do this style on the Koda 16 which obviously was not designed to do this style of pizza. I've tried a LOT of different styles of pizza and I find New Haven one of the most challenging to accurately replicate. I went up to CT this past summer and it was just the most incredible pizza I've ever tasted.

[mattapizza]

Also, wanted to see what people thought about whether it would be better to spend my money buying a high priced (because I don't have access to restaurant depot) 50 lb bag of GM Full Strength flour, or if it would be wiser to spend money on some new goodies from Penn Mac. They have some really good cheese options like Grande and Saputo, great pepperonis. They don't have FS flour, but they do have repacks of all trumps sold in 5 lb bags.

[scott r]

nice to see this thread again.

Yes, KABF is malted. It just lacks the potassium bromate that full strength flour has.  You can make a very similar pizza to Pepe's with it as the protein levels are close.   Just as good would be malted all trumps, its very similar to full strength with just a little more protein but everything else the same including the bromate.  Another easy option that I have had really great luck with while duplicating new haven crust is a 50/50 blend of All trumps and King Arthur all purpose (the red bag).  If you go only with All Trumps the only thing I would advise would be a percent or two higher than full strength on the water.   I believe pepe's/sallys is actually t 67% hydration, but depending on your bag of flour and the humidity of where it was stored your going to need to vary any flour by a few points, especially if your here in the northeast.   My house is 16 percent humidity right now, and in the summer is 80 percent!  Storing a bag of flour for a few weeks in either environment will necessitate a different hydration for any flour/style of pizza.

The FASTEST I have timed a pizza at Pepe's was 5 minutes and I think the more common speed is more like 7 minutes.  Its a wet dough with wet sauce and wet cheese and it needs time to bake all that moisture out.  750 on the deck is way too hot to make a Pepe's style pizza.   

[mattapizza]

nice to see this thread again.

Yes, KABF is malted. It just lacks the potassium bromate that full strength flour has.  You can make a very similar pizza to Pepe's with it as the protein levels are close.   Just as good would be malted all trumps, its very similar to full strength with just a little more protein but everything else the same including the bromate.  Another easy option that I have had really great luck with while duplicating new haven crust is a 50/50 blend of All trumps and King Arthur all purpose (the red bag).  If you go only with All Trumps the only thing I would advise would be a percent or two higher than full strength on the water.   I believe pepe's/sallys is actually t 67% hydration, but depending on your bag of flour and the humidity of where it was stored your going to need to vary any flour by a few points, especially if your here in the northeast.   My house is 16 percent humidity right now, and in the summer is 80 percent!  Storing a bag of flour for a few weeks in either environment will necessitate a different hydration for any flour/style of pizza.

The FASTEST I have timed a pizza at Pepe's was 5 minutes and I think the more common speed is more like 7 minutes.  Its a wet dough with wet sauce and wet cheese and it needs time to bake all that moisture out.  750 on the deck is way too hot to make a Pepe's style pizza.

Thanks Scott. So if you were going with AT, maybe 68 or 69% hydration? I have to decide if it’s worth dropping $68 on a 50 lb bag of FS. I doubt I do that. So it will be either KABF, AT, or some sort of blend.

I’ll try a longer bake at 600-650.

[scott r]

Wow, yeah dont spend that money on all trumps. Thats crazy.  That should cost you about $22.   Are you sure you dont have any restaurant supply stores that would sell cash and carry to you, or any restaurant depot's nearby?

A longer bake with KABF will be fine, the hard part is nailing everything else about the dough, the flour is not holding you back. 

[mattapizza]

Wow, yeah dont spend that money on all trumps. Thats crazy.  That should cost you about $22.   Are you sure you dont have any restaurant supply stores that would sell cash and carry to you, or any restaurant depot's nearby?

A longer bake with KABF will be fine, the hard part is nailing everything else about the dough, the flour is not holding you back. 

Oh I def know it’s not the flour. Just thought that was one thing I could for sure get exactly right since I know the type they use. I can but all trumps cheap, it’s the full strength that I can’t find except on Amazon. My brother in law has his own business and got a RD membership but we haven’t tried to go yet. His business is not food related so just wasn’t sure if they allowed that.

Yeah I only started last Jan with pizza so I’m still learning a lot and very much new to things. I’ll attach a pic of a new haven attempt in my koda 16 from Dec so you can look at how one turned out. I know there is only so much you can see from a pic.

It was at higher temp in the Ooni, 750ish and 4 minute cook. 68% hydration on the dough. Pretty sure I followed Polish pizza guy’s method for dough. Thanks for your help.

[nickyr]

Wow, yeah dont spend that money on all trumps. Thats crazy.  That should cost you about $22.   Are you sure you dont have any restaurant supply stores that would sell cash and carry to you, or any restaurant depot's nearby?

A longer bake with KABF will be fine, the hard part is nailing everything else about the dough, the flour is not holding you back. 

It’s still about the same price per pound as 5 lb bags of  KABF!

[Rodi]

Yep, I've tried his approach a couple of times. The results were okay, not amazing. That might be an issue on my end. Part of it is probably me trying to figure out a way to do this style on the Koda 16 which obviously was not designed to do this style of pizza. I've tried a LOT of different styles of pizza and I find New Haven one of the most challenging to accurately replicate. I went up to CT this past summer and it was just the most incredible pizza I've ever tasted.

I would take the Polish Piazzola guy with a grain of salt!! The hallmark of NH Style pizza is the dough, the sourdough flavoring of them. Otherwise they are tasteless and it's just a slightly thinner crust than pizza hut. How important is the sourdough? I returned two small pies I ordered from  Pepe's in West Hartford last week. Yes, it is that important.

[Rodi]

nice to see this thread again.

Yes, KABF is malted. It just lacks the potassium bromate that full strength flour has.  You can make a very similar pizza to Pepe's with it as the protein levels are close.   Just as good would be malted all trumps, its very similar to full strength with just a little more protein but everything else the same including the bromate.  Another easy option that I have had really great luck with while duplicating new haven crust is a 50/50 blend of All trumps and King Arthur all purpose (the red bag).  If you go only with All Trumps the only thing I would advise would be a percent or two higher than full strength on the water.   I believe pepe's/sallys is actually t 67% hydration, but depending on your bag of flour and the humidity of where it was stored your going to need to vary any flour by a few points, especially if your here in the northeast.   My house is 16 percent humidity right now, and in the summer is 80 percent!  Storing a bag of flour for a few weeks in either environment will necessitate a different hydration for any flour/style of pizza.

The FASTEST I have timed a pizza at Pepe's was 5 minutes and I think the more common speed is more like 7 minutes.  Its a wet dough with wet sauce and wet cheese and it needs time to bake all that moisture out.  750 on the deck is way too hot to make a Pepe's style pizza.

As a guy who lived on Wooster Street (twice) I can say this too, it's right at sea level and it is extremely humid all year round.

I have timed Sallys pies in the 80's when I was a regular there, and Flo would get antsy because I was watching when my pie would get in, closer to 8 minutes than 7 was the average (twice a week for 6 years). Sallys has considerably more sauce than any other NH pizza place. Their plain pie with a dash of parm was my dads favorite. The thing is the public thinks it's a super fast, super high heat oven, but they are ovens that were made for baking bread. I loved Flo, she would be straight up honest with you and get annoyed over little stuff like watching and timing of the pie. But I noted as well the biggest thing up to that time was only three people had stretched the dough out, Sal and his two sons. What intellectual property did they have on those pies in that family!

Sallys clam pies were pretty good, nothing compared to Pepe's. Aside from same sausage, their meat ingredients always lagged from Pepe's. Their cheese was better though, and the dough was beautiful, tasty, super thin, full of flavor.

[hammettjr]

Good stuff Rodi! What are your thoughts on Randy's Wooster Street Pizza in Manchester? I had their pizza a bunch in the 90s. Not sure if their pizza today is at all similar.

[Rodi]

Good stuff Rodi! What are your thoughts on Randy's Wooster Street Pizza in Manchester? I had their pizza a bunch in the 90s. Not sure if their pizza today is at all similar.

I live in Manchester! Randy's is ok. They have good toppings, but they lost us when they reduced the amount of mushrooms on a pie to a bit over 1 per slice. When asked about the manager got very confrontational. I think their dough is pretty consistent, but it is not even on the level of most of the places I mentioned minus Bar, they have a better pie than bar. They are pretty crowded, so who am I? They do have newer ownership, but they seemed to have weathered covid, which I applaud any small business (my wife has a one person hair salon in town) that has been able leap those hurdles. I have an institutional distrust for NH style places that sell slices, NY style it seems ok (Joe's in NYC was pretty good).

So, I forgot to mention Johnny's in Mt. Vernon NY. It's a hole in the wall, they are not nice (Sally's!!), their hours seem arbitrary. The pizza defies pizza logic. They are a NY/NH hybrid that is just unbelievable. Less char than Sally's or Pepe's, but the slices hang out on their own. They use dry mozz, have a blodgett I believe. They are fantastic pizzas. If I lived closer I might live there! The best pizza I have had in this century. I was really surprised by it.

Also Elmos in the Bronx was pretty good, but they added topping to slices post bake, which kinda sucked, but the dough was very good.

I think if the place has a good sourdough and they have that right, I'm gonna dig the place.

In Meriden CT, Little Rendevous was highly reccomended, was pretty good, but a bit lack luster.

[scott r]

I would take the Polish Piazzola guy with a grain of salt!! The hallmark of NH Style pizza is the dough, the sourdough flavoring of them. Otherwise they are tasteless and it's just a slightly thinner crust than pizza hut. How important is the sourdough? I returned two small pies I ordered from  Pepe's in West Hartford last week. Yes, it is that important.

Neither Pepe's or Sallys use sourdough, they both use cake yeast   

[scott r]

I have timed Sallys pies in the 80's when I was a regular there, and Flo would get antsy because I was watching when my pie would get in, closer to 8 minutes than 7 was the average (twice a week for 6 years). Sallys has considerably more sauce than any other NH pizza place. Their plain pie with a dash of parm was my dads favorite. The thing is the public thinks it's a super fast, super high heat oven, but they are ovens that were made for baking bread. I loved Flo, she would be straight up honest with you and get annoyed over little stuff like watching and timing of the pie. But I noted as well the biggest thing up to that time was only three people had stretched the dough out, Sal and his two sons. What intellectual property did they have on those pies in that family!

Sallys clam pies were pretty good, nothing compared to Pepe's. Aside from same sausage, their meat ingredients always lagged from Pepe's. Their cheese was better though, and the dough was beautiful, tasty, super thin, full of flavor.

Your spot on with all of this, and for sure pepe's uses more expensive toppings, sauce (and cheese actually) but that doesn't stop sally's from being better many times if you hit both spots back to back.

[hammettjr]

I live in Manchester! ...

Not sure if you like Greek pizza at all (I didn't really appreciate it until  I moved to NY then ended up making some for myself). We have a long thread about Greek pizza, below is a link to my review of a pizzeria one town over from you.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=691.msg534855#msg534855

[Rodi]

Not a fan. Worked at a few in HS, the best ones were bit of extra sauce n plain. Too greasy for my taste.