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Author Topic: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto  (Read 9626 times)

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Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #240 on: July 14, 2017, 07:17:13 PM »
Just spoke to someone from Eataly- yes they use a mother dough / pasta madre / sour dough to make their pizza that is 37 years old from Italy- it's cold fermented for 12 hours before it's sold. 

 

Offline norma427

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #241 on: July 15, 2017, 07:38:35 AM »
Just spoke to someone from Eataly- yes they use a mother dough / pasta madre / sour dough to make their pizza that is 37 years old from Italy- it's cold fermented for 12 hours before it's sold.
Pizzaman143,

I recently was on Scott's Pizza Tour at the Eataly 101 Liberty St.  I sure didn't taste any sourdough taste in their pizza crusts.  Maybe because the doughs are cold fermented.  Scott had the formulations, flours used and baker's percents for both styles of pies in his notebook he had along.  Didn't think to ask Scott if I could take photos of the formulations.  Didn't think the taste of those pizzas were that outstanding, but they were good.

Norma


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #242 on: July 15, 2017, 08:28:25 AM »
Peter- so in your experience, would you say that any of the pizzas made with starter over 5% taste better than pizzas less than 5%? If so, what percentage tastes better?
Pizzaman143,

I actually liked both types of pizzas but it is hard to say which was better because I never did a side-by-side test. Also, because I was always jumping around with pizza styles and experiments and tests, my starters were not always up to snuff in terms of virility but I did find that using more starter helped solve that problem. But, as a general observation, I always felt like Craig that overall the best tasting pizzas I ever made with natural starters were those that had only a small amount of starter. It's possible however that I was brainwashed by Marco (pizzanapoletana) because I felt that he had greater command of the subject than any member on the forum at the time he was active on the forum. I mean in terms of understanding the chemistry and physics and the related preparation and management of the dough and the related oven aspects of the Neapolitan style of pizza. If I would rank other pizzas that I felt has good overall taste, in second place I would say that I most liked the pizzas that were made with doughs that had two or more weeks of cold fermentation. In third place, I would say doughs that used preferments, either naturally or commercially leavened, but with a fair amount of preferment in either case. But all of the foregoing types of pizzas take a fair amount of work and dedication. In my case, making pizzas with about three days of cold fermentation is good enough for me on a regular basis.

Peter

Online kurbanlikkedi

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #243 on: July 15, 2017, 03:21:51 PM »
2 or more weeks cold fermentation? :o we would need a very very strong type of flour for that dont we?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #244 on: July 15, 2017, 04:30:08 PM »
2 or more weeks cold fermentation? :o we would need a very very strong type of flour for that dont we?
kurbanlikkedi,

This thread discusses how to make doughs that can last for a few weeks of cold fermentation:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251.

While a high gluten flour is likely to work better, the methods described in the above thread can be used with weaker flours, while even using a higher hydration than normal for flours like all purpose and bread flour.

To make it easier for you to zero in on some photos out of the above thread, you might take a look at this post:

Reply 20 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11344.msg106401;topicseen#msg106401.

Peter

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Online kurbanlikkedi

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #245 on: July 15, 2017, 05:31:06 PM »
yes interesting ;) ! i thought the max would be like 4-5 days cf and that u would end up with a colourless white pizza crust after that.


Offline Ogwoodfire

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #246 on: July 15, 2017, 10:15:49 PM »
Eataly is feeding you BS. I can almost guarantee you they do not use LM for their pizza. Maybe they do it in some of their breads but no way the pizza. I've had it, didn't detect it at all and a friend of mine worked there for years and didn't use it. I'm getting pretty sick of all sorts of pizza places spreading fake information around. I've made a habit of calling them out locally but it seems I'm the bad guy for telling the truth. Don't believe most of what places willingly tell you, unless of course it's on here.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 10:28:10 PM by Ogwoodfire »

Offline italdream

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #247 on: July 17, 2017, 09:41:59 AM »
Eataly is feeding you BS. I can almost guarantee you they do not use LM for their pizza. Maybe they do it in some of their breads but no way the pizza. I've had it, didn't detect it at all and a friend of mine worked there for years and didn't use it. I'm getting pretty sick of all sorts of pizza places spreading fake information around. I've made a habit of calling them out locally but it seems I'm the bad guy for telling the truth. Don't believe most of what places willingly tell you, unless of course it's on here.

Not sure if you read the previous posts, but pretty much everybody is saying that they do not use SD for pizzas and Eataly has not stated so, at least not when I asked. SD is for their bread.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #248 on: July 17, 2017, 09:56:16 AM »
Eataly has not stated so, at least not when I asked. SD is for their bread.

Apparently they can't keep their story straight. Scroll up to Reply 240.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline italdream

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #249 on: July 17, 2017, 10:57:03 AM »
Apparently they can't keep their story straight. Scroll up to Reply 240.

Craig, I missed that sentence...

I will politely ask for clarity (walking there sometime this week) on the premise that Eataly's pizza is what they serve at their bakery section. My understanding is that their Neapolitan-style spots are generally operated by others under different brands.

In any event, I do generally share Ogwoodfire's feeling about pizza places spreading all kind of misinformation. Here in NY, things are out of control but this would deserve a separate post.

They often feel that they can get away with things and they do.

I reached a point of saturation a few weeks ago. Brandi, the pizzeria that invented Margherita by most historical accounts (btw mediocre pizza in Naples these days, but no doubt Neapolitan) opened its (first ?) U.S. branch in Port Chester NY (http://brandi1760.com). I walked into a marketing trap. Not because the oven is gas (I operate mine primarily with gas) but because I received small, low quality, NY styles pies, yet they were selling them at 15-18+ a pop purporting to have invented pizza (http://brandi1760.com/our-story).

Terrible pizzas all around. Generally, I avoid complaining about pizzerias on the spot. But this time, I ended up calling the manager and the pizzaiolo (both Italian guys) and complained in Italian. I told them to at least rise the oven temp and start making Neapolitan under that brand. It has come to this. One of the oldest pizzerias brands in Naples is getting away with selling low grade NY Style, charge almost $20 a pie, while claiming that they invented pizza. People can read their claims (00, wood oven, 60-90 seconds etc.) here: http://brandi1760.com/about/
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Offline Breadscience

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #250 on: July 17, 2017, 05:49:25 PM »
Can anyone explain why most of folks that make naturallyleavened pizza in this forum use Ischia culture? ??? What gives you ischia? Because after 5-5-7  feedings the micrfoflora of the starter is change and becomes normal starter. Most of folks keep their Ischia from 4-5 years and do you think that same bacterias are here? I think not. View this video its explained  very good starts at 6:20m . If you keep your starter healthy feeding at least 24h daily and temps between 20-30C you can make awesome Neapolitan pizza and not even. The problems with natural statrers most often cames from their storing most folks store their starter in fridge and not refresh frequently and results its flat and dense bread or pizza with sour taste. A good and healthy starter never get sour taste in final product if it fermented right. Even with retarded over 40h they are no sourness at all, maybe too litle tangy note if its ovefermented.

But if I compare side by side Neapolitan dough made by say Craig Ischia Culture(I know its very old) and say my regular culture feeded with ap flour, both dough are fermeted for 24h at controlled room temp, what would be difference in taste, considering high salt leves and low starter amounts. Typycally I use around 10% to 25% starter low protein flours - under 11% protein, wetter doughs 70-75% hydration. They are baked in home oven at much lower temp that I want (see pic below). I want to try same dough baked at 400-450C for 2-3m total bake time. Wondering if I bake at 500-550 for 40-60 sec what would be result lovely leoparding or burned at all.

But what is Neapolitan style actually? What gives this softer texture and nice leoparding? High bake temperatures or flour ? For me Neapolitan style is simply controlled room temp fermentation, long salt levels low yeast/starter levels and high bake temps.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #251 on: July 17, 2017, 06:27:01 PM »
Can anyone explain why most of folks that make naturallyleavened pizza in this forum use Ischia culture?

It's kind of like this...

https://youtu.be/N16YkjFVAyE?t=184
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 06:32:40 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #252 on: July 17, 2017, 06:34:02 PM »
Breadscience,

The Ischia culture and also the related Camaldoli culture were introduced to the forum by a member pizzanapoletana (Marco Parente) in the early days of the forum when the Neapolitan style of pizza was in its infancy in the U.S. Marco was a consultant who once lived in the Naples area and specialized in the classic Neapolitan style pizza but using natural starters rather than commercial yeast (like fresh yeast). You can read about the genesis of the Ischia and Camaldoli cultures in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html.

Many of the members make their own natural starters and others use other forms and variations of natural starters that are sold by Sourdough International and other vendors. Some get their natural starters from friends and bakers.

Peter

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #253 on: July 17, 2017, 06:47:46 PM »
View this video its explained  very good starts at 6:20m

I think you misunderstand the message he's trying to give. I think he's trying to justify established, dominant cultures like Ischia - and make the case that they don't change over time. When he's talking about their study, he's talking about homemade cultures made from fruits and things like that getting taken over - not an established culture. Note that he references Marco Parente at 6:40 (the Marco referred to often on this forum) as being the person they did the study with. Marco is the one that Ed Wood credits with collecting the Ischia and Camaldoli for sale in the first place. I doubt he'd be trying to make a case that it changes in 7 days - rather that you should buy it as opposed to make a homemade culture. It would be interesting so see the study he is referring to to get an idea of the scientific rigor involved.

That all being said, my Ischia didn't change much for several years then it changed dramatically, almost overnight. It stayed that way for about a year and then changed again fairly suddenly in a direction back towards the original. All three variants, whatever they are have produced exceptional pizza.

Note: I was typing at the same time as Peter hence the duplication about Marco introducing the cultures.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2017, 06:50:43 PM by TXCraig1 »
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Offline parallei

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #254 on: July 17, 2017, 06:56:37 PM »
It's kind of like this...

https://youtu.be/N16YkjFVAyE?t=184

Ha!  Unlike you and me, who both served, many would not understand.  So, I'm thinking:  "Hey, I'm just another Bozo on the Bus.", might be more appropriate.

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Offline Pizzaman143

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #255 on: August 19, 2017, 11:25:33 PM »
What is the benefit of putting the dough in the fridge if it has the best flavors when left at room temperature the whole time? Also, what is the purpose of bulking it and then balling it? Why not just ball it first and let the balls ferment the whole time to avoid that extra step?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #256 on: August 19, 2017, 11:28:56 PM »
What is the benefit of putting the dough in the fridge if it has the best flavors when left at room temperature the whole time?

Logistics and margin of error.

Quote
Also, what is the purpose of bulking it and then balling it? Why not just ball it first and let the balls ferment the whole time to avoid that extra step?

For a pizzeria, bulk takes up a lot less room. For everyone, too long in balls, and the dough is too slack, pulls too thin, tears easily.
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Offline fagilia

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #257 on: August 31, 2017, 07:57:45 AM »
Studies have been made that show cultures holding up for a long time if conditions are the same and not changing. If environment change probably the culture will also change. Not my words but gentzel.

Offline fagilia

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #258 on: August 31, 2017, 08:00:46 AM »
ALso I hade 2 different answeres from very big authoroties in Naples about Criscito. One saying its the same as pasta di riporto one saying its the same as sourdough starter.

Offline yarbrough462

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Re: Criscito vs Pasta Di Riporto
« Reply #259 on: September 02, 2017, 01:18:17 PM »
Can anyone explain why most of folks that make naturallyleavened pizza in this forum use Ischia culture? ??? What gives you ischia? Because after 5-5-7  feedings the micrfoflora of the starter is change and becomes normal starter. Most of folks keep their Ischia from 4-5 years and do you think that same bacterias are here? I think not. View this video its explained  very good starts at 6:20m . If you keep your starter healthy feeding at least 24h daily and temps between 20-30C you can make awesome Neapolitan pizza and not even. The problems with natural statrers most often cames from their storing most folks store their starter in fridge and not refresh frequently and results its flat and dense bread or pizza with sour taste. A good and healthy starter never get sour taste in final product if it fermented right. Even with retarded over 40h they are no sourness at all, maybe too litle tangy note if its ovefermented.

But if I compare side by side Neapolitan dough made by say Craig Ischia Culture(I know its very old) and say my regular culture feeded with ap flour, both dough are fermeted for 24h at controlled room temp, what would be difference in taste, considering high salt leves and low starter amounts. Typycally I use around 10% to 25% starter low protein flours - under 11% protein, wetter doughs 70-75% hydration. They are baked in home oven at much lower temp that I want (see pic below). I want to try same dough baked at 400-450C for 2-3m total bake time. Wondering if I bake at 500-550 for 40-60 sec what would be result lovely leoparding or burned at all.

But what is Neapolitan style actually? What gives this softer texture and nice leoparding? High bake temperatures or flour ? For me Neapolitan style is simply controlled room temp fermentation, long salt levels low yeast/starter levels and high bake temps.

The pizzas pictured are not Neapolitan style pizzas...

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