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Author Topic: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help  (Read 1137 times)

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Offline weekendpizza

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Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« on: July 15, 2017, 07:55:16 PM »
I'm a total newb. I have probably made less than 10 pies.

Anyway, I've tried a couple of time to make dough in advance to cold ferment for a few days, but I've always had a failure one way or another.

Usually my problem is that my dough doesn't want to work with me when I go to make the pie.

Anyway, I went to a trusted source for a good NYC dough recipe, Serious Eats: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough.html

The recipe seemed simple and I was able to quickly and easily make a dough that seemed different than my previous attempts.

Here's the problem. In the recipe Kenji says to either place the portioned dough into 1 qt deli container or Ziploc bags. I don't have any deli containers, and I thought I had Ziploc bags, but I did not.

I ended up putting the portions into one big Tupperware container. I expected the dough to rise somewhat in the refrigerator, but not to the extent it has. Pics below.

It is now one big mound of dough.

In the recipe Kenji instructs to place the dough into separate bowls at least 2 hours before you make the pies and let rise at room temp.

My question is this: am I boned? Or will I be okay to carefully separate the large dough ball into three separate dough balls and let rise for 2 hours at room temp before I cook?

If I'm boned, is there anything I can do to salvage this, or am I better off making new dough tomorrow?

Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2017, 07:57:10 PM »
Sorry, forgot to attach pics of the dough.

Offline parallei

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2017, 08:12:43 PM »
One is (mostly) never completely hosed.

I think, if I were you, I'd separate the mass into the three portions that are clearly evident.  Then ball them up individually, and place on a floured half sheet of something.  Hit some plastic wrap with some oil or Pam type spray, cover and back into the fridge.  You could also lightly oil the individual balls.  Out of fridge 2 hours before bake.  I'm guessing they will be just fine!

Offline Essen1

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2017, 12:26:05 AM »
I'm a total newb. I have probably made less than 10 pies.

Anyway, I've tried a couple of time to make dough in advance to cold ferment for a few days, but I've always had a failure one way or another.

Usually my problem is that my dough doesn't want to work with me when I go to make the pie.

Anyway, I went to a trusted source for a good NYC dough recipe, Serious Eats: http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2012/07/basic-new-york-style-pizza-dough.html

The recipe seemed simple and I was able to quickly and easily make a dough that seemed different than my previous attempts.

Here's the problem. In the recipe Kenji says to either place the portioned dough into 1 qt deli container or Ziploc bags. I don't have any deli containers, and I thought I had Ziploc bags, but I did not.

I ended up putting the portions into one big Tupperware container. I expected the dough to rise somewhat in the refrigerator, but not to the extent it has. Pics below.

It is now one big mound of dough.

In the recipe Kenji instructs to place the dough into separate bowls at least 2 hours before you make the pies and let rise at room temp.

My question is this: am I boned? Or will I be okay to carefully separate the large dough ball into three separate dough balls and let rise for 2 hours at room temp before I cook?

If I'm boned, is there anything I can do to salvage this, or am I better off making new dough tomorrow?


I agree with Para here. Degass, reshape, weigh the mass and divide.
Mike

“All styles of pizza are valid. I make the best I’m capable of; you should make the best you’re capable of. I don’t want to make somebody else’s pizza.” ~ Chris Bianco

Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2017, 10:44:27 AM »
Thanks guys. I didn't snap any pics but I just divided the dough, reshaped the dough balls and placed in oiled bowls on the counter and covered with saran and towels.

Will let rise at room temp for 4-5 hours until I make the pies.

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Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2017, 05:43:39 PM »
Thanks again everyone. The dough came out perfect.

Cooked some garlic bread, pesto chicken veg, and pepperoni with no trouble.

Online hammettjr

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2017, 06:37:20 PM »
Looks good!

Matt

Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2017, 06:44:59 PM »

Offline Josh123

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #8 on: July 17, 2017, 12:03:14 PM »
Looks like ciabatta bread

Offline parallei

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #9 on: July 17, 2017, 12:31:41 PM »
Thanks again everyone. The dough came out perfect.

Cooked some garlic bread, pesto chicken veg, and pepperoni with no trouble.

Glad it worked out for you.

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Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #10 on: July 17, 2017, 12:33:56 PM »
Looks like ciabatta bread
What can I say, I'm still learning.

Offline Josh123

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #11 on: July 17, 2017, 01:55:13 PM »
What can I say, I'm still learning.

This wasn't an insult, just an observation. I'd work on really pounding out your dough if you're going for NY style.

Offline weekendpizza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #12 on: July 17, 2017, 01:56:16 PM »
This wasn't an insult, just an observation. I'd work on really pounding out your dough if you're going for NY style.
Thanks. Wasn't really insulted, just more so taking it in stride.

Offline csnack

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #13 on: July 17, 2017, 03:55:56 PM »
When I first came here I was a nube as well  using Kenji's NY dough as my first dough. If you're following Kenji's recipe exactly (including the use of a food processor) then you're using way too much yeast. I followed his recipe exactly and as a result I was overproofing every single time, though I didn't know that at the time. To the 22.5 oz of flour he calls for 2 tsp of yeast, the use of warm water, all done in a food processor and then he says to cold ferment for 3-5 days. That's why you're seeing so much activity, more so than you expected even in that cold environment, where usually with proper amounts of yeast you see very little if any noticeable activity in the fridge even after a few days. My doughs would rise and then sometimes collapse just inside of 2 days in the fridge w/ that recipe.
I don't mean to be that guy who not long ago was a nube using his recipe and who has since read a few posts and made a few doughs and am now ready to sit and criticize him, <i>but</i> I do believe his NY dough recipe is meant to be a no-fail recipe where ideally anyone who finds it would be able to have success with it regardless of skill level. But where that purpose gets defeated is in the ton of yeast, the warm water despite the use of a food processor (which generates/transfers a lot of heat quickly to the dough especially when using the metal blade), and the failure to mention anything regarding the finished dough temp, which is the temp of the dough when all is said and done and dough ball is ready to ferment.
So you've got the flour and yeast et al in the processor bowl, adding warm water to that and then spinning it all with a warm metal blade for who knows how long, all while completely neglecting the dough temp. You've got these factors contributing heat to your dough quickly, and this heat is what really gets the yeast going and the dough proofing if not speedily; you end up with a dough ball that's easily approaching 100° and possibly over (where ~75° is typically ideal) and is all set to overproof before long. In the end this "3-5 day" cold ferment dough is more like a 12 hour dough before overproofing begins. I took my Kenji doughs out on day 3 and they were always overproofed by then, and they still needed the 1-2 hour room temp warm up. Doughs looked like yours do; spongy, wet and slack and tore easily, but I made pizzas. Who knows what my final dough temps were, but they definitely varied because those doughs never behaved w/ any consistency.
If you're using a food processor use cold water. I use ice water. Keep a temp probe handy and check dough temp frequently along the way. I shoot for 75-80° for the final dough ball for both cold ferment and room ferment. If you're not already familiar, it'd be good to learn baker's percents and it's easy. For a 3-5 day cold ferment dough I use anywhere from .15% to .40% IDY and .30% is a good start for 3 or so days in the fridge w/ a final dough temp under 80°. I keep each ball in their own rubbermaid container like this that I spray quickly w/ Pam or whatever it is. Spray the ball with it too.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2017, 04:51:45 PM »
Dr. Christian  ;D,

You have once again hit the nail on the head with your diagnosis.

In another article by Kenji, he extolled the virtues of using a food processor, at:

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/10/the-pizza-lab-how-to-make-great-new-york-style-pizza.html.

The above Slice article gave birth to the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12278.msg116253#msg116253.

In the above thread, I discussed the same points that you raised relative to the use of a food processor and its effect on finished dough temperature. My comments, as well as some related comments, appear in the middle of the post at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=12278.msg116282#msg116282.

As Tom Lehmann has cautioned us so many times, getting the finished dough temperature right, and also the right amount of yeast for the intended life of the dough, is critical to success of the venture.

Peter

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Offline parallei

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #15 on: July 17, 2017, 05:51:20 PM »
Looks like ciabatta bread

This wasn't an insult, just an observation. I'd work on really pounding out your dough if you're going for NY style.

Of course you meant it as an insult.  If you'd wanted to be helpful, you had just said....

I'd work on really pounding out your dough if you're going for NY style.

You recently opened a pizza joint as described here:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46162.msg473356#msg473356.  At least I'm guessing that is you.

It would seem you had much help from this forum.  Oddly, you don't seem to think that help important enough to even become a contributing member.  $10 is gonna bust your ass?

Just an observation......


Offline csnack

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #16 on: July 17, 2017, 11:20:52 PM »


Dr. Christian  ;D,

You have once again hit the nail on the head with your diagnosis.

Eh, you just like my long post


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #17 on: July 18, 2017, 08:19:30 AM »

Eh, you just like my long post
Christian,

Given a choice, I believe that members, and especially members new to pizza making or with little experience in pizza making, prefer detailed advice over general advice. It's easy to give general advice but hard to follow. Detailed advice takes more time and more work but is more likely to lead to good results.

Peter

Offline HarryHaller73

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #18 on: July 18, 2017, 11:04:55 PM »
Of course you meant it as an insult.  If you'd wanted to be helpful, you had just said....

You recently opened a pizza joint as described here:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46162.msg473356#msg473356.  At least I'm guessing that is you.

It would seem you had much help from this forum.  Oddly, you don't seem to think that help important enough to even become a contributing member.  $10 is gonna bust your ass?

Just an observation......

without people like Josh, the NY thread would still be making thick crust panzanella topped biscotti with red sauce made on an oven steel. 


« Last Edit: July 19, 2017, 10:35:07 AM by HarryHaller73 »

Offline Josh123

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Re: Am I boned? AKA, NYC dough help
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2017, 09:22:40 AM »
Of course you meant it as an insult.  If you'd wanted to be helpful, you had just said....

You recently opened a pizza joint as described here:  https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46162.msg473356#msg473356.  At least I'm guessing that is you.

It would seem you had much help from this forum.  Oddly, you don't seem to think that help important enough to even become a contributing member.  $10 is gonna bust your ass?

Just an observation......

Thank God we have you to tell everyone here what I really meant.

As far as being a contributing member and 10 bucks or whatever, I don't even know what you're talking about. I look at this site once a week or so from my phone. I didn't even know about that option.

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