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Offline jsaras

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1320 on: April 08, 2017, 09:55:27 AM »
So his hydration is only 60%? 
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Offline pizapizza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1321 on: April 08, 2017, 04:52:53 PM »
So his hydration is only 60%?
the recipe in his book is 70% i believe. i cant remember but i think he said he went down to 70% in the book to make it easier for the home baker. ive had his pizza and its very light

Offline jsaras

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1322 on: April 08, 2017, 06:11:10 PM »
the recipe in his book is 70% i believe. i cant remember but i think he said he went down to 70% in the book to make it easier for the home baker. ive had his pizza and its very light

That's correct, but this video indicates a total of 1000 grams of flour (200 grams of semola di gran duro plus 800 grams of farro integrale) and 600 ml of water.
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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1323 on: May 14, 2017, 08:24:43 AM »
If anyone is interested this is the recipe for Gabriele Bonci's focaccia con pomodorini pachino e origano

http://bonci.it/portfolio/focaccia-con-pomodorini-pachino-e-origano/

Since I can't read Italian or translate things for what is done in the mixing and ferment, maybe someone else can.

Fiori e Acciughe


http://bonci.it/portfolio/fiori-e-acciughe/ 

Pizza Marinara con Alici

http://bonci.it/portfolio/pizza-marinarab-con-alici/

Pizza con le Patate

http://bonci.it/portfolio/pizza-con-le-patate/
 
Patate Sfoglia

http://bonci.it/portfolio/patate-sfoglia/

Am not sure if this older video was posted on this thread.


 
Norma

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1324 on: May 14, 2017, 08:55:56 AM »
If anyone is interested this is the recipe for Gabriele Bonci's focaccia con pomodorini pachino e origano

http://bonci.it/portfolio/focaccia-con-pomodorini-pachino-e-origano/

Since I can't read Italian or translate things for what is done in the mixing and ferment, maybe someone else can.

"Iniziate stendendo la focaccia su una teglia ben oliata una volta stesa lasciare riposare per 30 minuti. Trascorsi i 30 minuti aggiungere i pomodorini pachino tagliati a metà e l’origano; coprire con una pellicola e lasciare riposare per altri 30 minuti. Mettere in forno al massimo della temperatura per 20 minuti"

Begin by extending the focaccia dough on a well-oiled pan and let rest for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes add the cut tomatoes and the oregano; cover with cling film and let rest for another 30 minutes.  Bake in the oven at maximum temperature for 20 minutes.


Thanks for the links Norma. Hope the translation helps.


Rolls
« Last Edit: May 14, 2017, 09:00:12 AM by Rolls »

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1325 on: May 14, 2017, 04:33:46 PM »
"Iniziate stendendo la focaccia su una teglia ben oliata una volta stesa lasciare riposare per 30 minuti. Trascorsi i 30 minuti aggiungere i pomodorini pachino tagliati a metà e l’origano; coprire con una pellicola e lasciare riposare per altri 30 minuti. Mettere in forno al massimo della temperatura per 20 minuti"

Begin by extending the focaccia dough on a well-oiled pan and let rest for 30 minutes. After 30 minutes add the cut tomatoes and the oregano; cover with cling film and let rest for another 30 minutes.  Bake in the oven at maximum temperature for 20 minutes.


Thanks for the links Norma. Hope the translation helps.


Rolls

Rolls,

Thanks for the translation!

Norma

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1326 on: July 13, 2017, 08:01:01 AM »
Videos of somewhat how to make a Pizzarium dough and  Pizza al Taglio.  Does anyone know a flour here in the US that would have a very high W value besides the Polselli flour?

Massimiliano Saieva makes it look so easy to make this style of pizza but know it mustn't be as easy as it looks.   :-D


   

 

 

 

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39897.0 

Or which to look for at Peter's link at Reply 39 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39993.msg399294#msg399294 

Norma

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1327 on: July 16, 2017, 08:12:52 AM »
Norma,

I think the high W flours are only really needed for very extended fermentation times. I often make this type of pizza using an all-purpose flour (approx. 13% protein) and cold ferment between 24-36 hours. I would try either a strong AP flour or a bread flour and adjust the fermentation times accordingly.

I have some Polselli on hand, but I think it's different from the one used in the video.


Rolls

Offline pizapizza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1328 on: July 16, 2017, 10:47:34 PM »
norma have you tried any of the mulino marino flours? i believe bonci uses/used the burrato flour. its what i usually use buts its expensive. i purchased some central milling flour recently for alot less

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1329 on: July 17, 2017, 08:08:45 AM »
Norma,

I think the high W flours are only really needed for very extended fermentation times. I often make this type of pizza using an all-purpose flour (approx. 13% protein) and cold ferment between 24-36 hours. I would try either a strong AP flour or a bread flour and adjust the fermentation times accordingly.

I have some Polselli on hand, but I think it's different from the one used in the video.


Rolls

Rolls,

Interesting that you think the high W flours are only really needed for very extended fermentation times.  That is a high protein number for an AP flour you use.  Do you have any photos of the Pizzarium styles you make?  Also what type of pan do you use?

norma have you tried any of the mulino marino flours? i believe bonci uses/used the burrato flour. its what i usually use buts its expensive. i purchased some central milling flour recently for alot less

pizapizza,

No, have not tried any of the Mulino Marino flours.  Thanks for telling us that you believe Bonci uses/used the burrato flour.  I will look to see where it can be purchased.

Norma

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1330 on: July 17, 2017, 09:27:20 AM »
Norma,

I once found a W table and reproduced it at Reply 15 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545.

The Italian millers often cite the W values of their flours in their specs. Caputo does this regularly.

For more information on the Mulino Marino flour, see the entry in the list at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012, more specifically, at:

http://www.mulinomarino.it/eng/prodotti.php.

Peter

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1331 on: July 17, 2017, 01:01:08 PM »
Rolls, Interesting that you think the high W flours are only really needed for very extended fermentation times.  That is a high protein number for an AP flour you use.  Do you have any photos of the Pizzarium styles you make?  Also what type of pan do you use?

Hi Norma,
Yes, generally speaking, a higher W value is commensurate with longer fermentation times. Flours with lower W values are used in doughs mixed using the DIRECT method and requiring shorter fermentation times. The flour I've been using is an AP from 5 Roses. It's fairly strong for an AP but it works well for both pizza and breads, though I tend to use other products for the latter.  Sorry, I don't have any photos - will have to learn how to do that. I've used both steel pans and aluminum pans. The main difference is that the pizza crust remains more tender in the aluminum pans (not something I mind). However, one of the defining characteristics of true teglia alla Romana is a crunchy, crispy crust which perhaps can only be achieved with the steel pans.


Rolls

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1332 on: July 17, 2017, 01:15:12 PM »
I once found a W table and reproduced it at Reply 15 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545.

Peter,

The W table in the link provided has been widely disputed in many of the Italian message boards.  Some of the "maturation" times that are provided are not only inaccurate, but indeed impossible, if  "maturation" is taken to mean the biochemical breakdown of complex molecules (proteins, starches & fats) into their simpler components.


Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1333 on: July 17, 2017, 01:27:59 PM »
Peter,

The W table in the link provided has been widely disputed in many of the Italian message boards.  Some of the "maturation" times that are provided are not only inaccurate, but indeed impossible, if  "maturation" is taken to mean the biochemical breakdown of complex molecules (proteins, starches & fats) into their simpler components.

Rolls
Rolls,

Thanks for that piece of information. I will be sure not to cite or rely on the W list in the future.

It's nice to have someone familiar with other pizza forums to enlightening us on what goes on there.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1334 on: July 17, 2017, 08:55:23 PM »
Norma,

I once found a W table and reproduced it at Reply 15 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4986.msg42545.html#msg42545.

The Italian millers often cite the W values of their flours in their specs. Caputo does this regularly.

For more information on the Mulino Marino flour, see the entry in the list at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=40212.msg401012#msg401012, more specifically, at:

http://www.mulinomarino.it/eng/prodotti.php.

Peter

Peter,

I don't even understand those W numbers.  Don't even know why I asked about high W numbers for flour. 

Thanks for the links!  Maybe we need Rolls to explain more about W numbers.   :)

Norma

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Offline norma427

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1335 on: July 17, 2017, 09:01:04 PM »
Hi Norma,
Yes, generally speaking, a higher W value is commensurate with longer fermentation times. Flours with lower W values are used in doughs mixed using the DIRECT method and requiring shorter fermentation times. The flour I've been using is an AP from 5 Roses. It's fairly strong for an AP but it works well for both pizza and breads, though I tend to use other products for the latter.  Sorry, I don't have any photos - will have to learn how to do that. I've used both steel pans and aluminum pans. The main difference is that the pizza crust remains more tender in the aluminum pans (not something I mind). However, one of the defining characteristics of true teglia alla Romana is a crunchy, crispy crust which perhaps can only be achieved with the steel pans.


Rolls

Rolls,

Thanks for explaining more about W numbers!  Is this the 5 Roses AP flour you use?

http://www.fiveroses.ca/FiveRoses/ProductDetails/356

Thanks also for explaining about the steel pans and the aluminum pans.  I didn't know that a true teglia alla Romana has a crunchy, crispy crust. 

Do you have a formulation and work-flow you use when making this style of pizza that you would share?

Norma

Offline pizapizza

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1336 on: July 17, 2017, 09:58:10 PM »
Rolls,

Interesting that you think the high W flours are only really needed for very extended fermentation times.  That is a high protein number for an AP flour you use.  Do you have any photos of the Pizzarium styles you make?  Also what type of pan do you use?

pizapizza,

No, have not tried any of the Mulino Marino flours.  Thanks for telling us that you believe Bonci uses/used the burrato flour.  I will look to see where it can be purchased.


Norma
you can get it at formaggio kitchen and i believe eataly carries it

Offline parallei

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1337 on: July 17, 2017, 10:16:06 PM »
Hi Norma,

I'm sorry to be a bore here, but a decent bread flour like KA or Better for Bread works just fine for this style.  If you want to tart it up a bit, use 5-10% WW or Spelt or some blend. 

Rolls- What is your formula/method?  Any pics?  Love to see them. 

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1338 on: July 18, 2017, 09:17:18 AM »
Maybe we need Rolls to explain more about W numbers.   :)

The W value is an indication of a flour's strength, obtained using a Chopin Alveograph, for the purpose of classifying flours for different applications. A sample dough is mixed under specific conditions and the sample pieces are blown up with air, much like a balloon, to the point of rupture. Based on this, information regarding the dough's tenacity (P) and extensibility (L) are plotted on a chart, which, in turn, is used to calculate the W value and P/L ratio of the flour.

Here are some very general guidelines:

W<120 - weak flour, not suitable for breads; used for certain pastries, cookies
W 120-150 - weak flour, not suitable for breads; used for crackers, cookies, breadsticks
W 160-200 - medium/weak strength flour suitable for breads (DIRECT METHOD) short fermentation times; pizza, focaccia
W 200-250 - medium strength flour suitable for breads (DIRECT METHOD) short fermentation times; pizza, focaccia
W 250-320 - medium/strong flour suitable for breads (DIRECT METHOD & INDIRECT METHOD) with medium fermentation times
W>320 - strong flours used for doughs requiring extended fermentation times such as sourdough breads, panettone etc.
W> 400 - ultra-strong, high gluten flours usually added to weaker flours to bolster average protein content


Rolls

Offline Rolls

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Re: Pizzarium
« Reply #1339 on: July 18, 2017, 10:15:22 AM »
Do you have a formulation and work-flow you use when making this style of pizza that you would share?

Quote from: parallei
Rolls- What is your formula/method?  Any pics?  Love to see them.

Sorry, I don't have any pics, but can share my usual recipe:

Five Roses AP Flour 90%
Remilled Semolina 10%
Water 75%
Salt 2.2%
Olive Oil 2%
<1% IDY

I hydrate the IDY in the water and combine with the rest of the ingredients, adding the oil at the end. I mix by hand to a smooth and homogenous consistency and aim for a target dough temperature of 24C. I usually cold ferment at 4C in the fridge for 36 hours after which I divide the cold dough mass and roll into 2 oblong loaves. These are fermented at RT for several hours (usually 4) and then the dough ball is stretched to about 2/3 its final size on the bench which has been generously covered with a mix of semolina rimacinata and rice flour. Excess bench flour is shaken off and the dough is placed in a lightly greased sheet pan. It is stretched to its final dimensions and baked without further proofing at 380F until done. The toppings are usually staged depending on the ingredients. The amount of dough is calculated by determing the area of the pan in cm²/2. For example, a sheet pan 30cm by 40cm =1200cm²/2 = 600gm of dough. (I usually add an extra 10%)

IMO, the challenge of this type of pizza is trying to coordinate the fermentation schedule such that at the point of baking, the dough has enough fermentation gases and, perhaps more importantly, the right extensibility. Unlike many focaccia recipes, teglia alla Romana should be stretched and baked right away. The gluten network needs to be sufficiently relaxed and a delicate touch is required when handling this relatively high hydration dough. Final crust texture should be crispy and crunchy.

I learned to stretch this dough by studying the youtube videos of Pino Arletto.




Rolls
« Last Edit: July 18, 2017, 02:05:41 PM by Rolls »

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