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Author Topic: Is gluten off the hook??  (Read 581 times)

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Online Jersey Pie Boy

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Is gluten off the hook??
« on: November 28, 2017, 06:55:13 PM »
Found this today..pretty interesting...and just at the end of the article, see what they say about sourdough..I knew that stuff was good!  :)


https://www.vox.com/2017/11/21/16643816/gluten-bloated-carb-wheat-fructan-problem-fodmaps

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2017, 07:50:01 PM »
Interesting anecdotal evidence:

Chad Robertson of Tartine Bakery tells this story about his "gluten intolerant" wife:   

Quote
For years I’ve been telling my wife, Liz, that she should be able to eat Tartine’s bread despite her gluten intolerance. The long fermentation we employ to leaven our dough gives lactic- and acetic-acid bacteria time to break down gluten molecules into constituent amino acids. The Internet buzzes with plenty of other people who have proposed and debated this same idea. But I’ve never been able to compel Liz to put her body on the line for science and eat some of our bread. Finally, a few months ago, at a dinner with Michael Pollan and his wife, Judith, Michael was telling us that he’d done extensive research on gluten intolerance while writing Cooked. In a way that only Michael Pollan can, he convinced Liz that she’d more than likely be fine eating our bread. So that night after dinner we returned home and Liz proceeded to eat half a loaf of bread. She said she wanted to make sure it was a large enough amount that her body would notice and respond. That evening and the following day, she was free and clear of any kind of gluten reaction. My belief confirmed, I started bringing bread home from the bakery on a regular basis. After a couple of weeks, Liz told me to stop. I wondered if she’d had a bad episode. No, she said, it was because the temptation to binge was becoming an issue.

Offline HBolte

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2017, 10:02:24 PM »
Interesting anecdotal evidence:

Chad Robertson of Tartine Bakery tells this story about his "gluten intolerant" wife:

Similar story here. After reading that article my girlfriend reluctantly tried a naturally fermented bread that I made with heritage Turkey Red wheat...it was the first time in ten years that she did not have a reaction to wheat.
Hans

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2017, 12:03:05 AM »
Strange that you should be trying Turkey Red in a gluten intolerant scenario. I had proposed exactly the same thing about 6-years ago, I wanted to see if the gluten intolerance issue is due to one or more of the wheat proteins or if it is due to changes to the protein which may have been introduced through the extensive breeding programs that wheat is exposed to. My proposal was to do a blind panel using Turkey Red from a certified grower and a modern day winter wheat variety. The majority of the wheat breeding that has taken place over the past 50-years or so, has been focused on increasing and/or strengthening the protein so as to achieve a stronger dough and I've always been curious as to whether the changes to the protein might have something to do with the gluten intolerance issue? As a kid growing up I don't recall any kids with any kind of reaction to gluten.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline HBolte

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2017, 07:43:38 AM »
Tom, I'm not sure if it is the long(24 hour) natural fermentation or the use of heirloom wheat. I mill my own Turkey Red and Red Fife now but originally bought milled Turkey Red from http://www.sunriseflourmill.com  They seem to have customers that can tolerate heirloom flours using commercial yeast too. Modern wheat may be the culprit?

I think that you would enjoy the documentary "Sustainable" if you have not already seen it.
Hans

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Offline enchant

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2017, 08:14:00 AM »
Chad Robertson of Tartine Bakery tells this story about his "gluten intolerant" wife:

Bill, where can I find this article online? I tried searching and only found it in pizzamaking.com.  My nephew is seriously into sourdough, but his sister is seriously gluten intolerant.
--pat--

Offline HBolte

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #6 on: November 29, 2017, 08:38:11 AM »
I can't remember where I read the article. There was not much more information about gluten intolerance than was quoted above by Bill.

Here is a bit of info: https://psmag.com/social-justice/do-heritage-grains-hold-promise-for-the-gluten-sensitive-42612
Hans

Offline bigMoose

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #7 on: November 29, 2017, 10:53:22 AM »
Folks I encourage you to share this information with your friends.  I put this up on my FB page just 2 hours ago, and it "blew up."  Folks very interested in it.  I don't have Turkey Red flour in stock, but do have Kamut.  I am starting to convert a bit of my sourdough starter over to Kamut from wheat flour, and will bake up a batch of "little loaves" for folks to try and see if they can tolerate Kamut differently than commercial products.

If this works, we are helping a bunch of people.  Plus someone could sure start a business around getting ancient wheats out there as bulk flour at more reasonable prices.
All the best, Dave

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2017, 11:38:05 AM »
Bill, where can I find this article online? I tried searching and only found it in pizzamaking.com.  My nephew is seriously into sourdough, but his sister is seriously gluten intolerant.

I wish I could recall. I may have read it on hardcopy somewhere and keyed it into my computer; otherwise, I would have collected the link. Sorry I just don't remember.

Online foreplease

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2017, 06:38:50 PM »
[https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37161.0quote author=Bill/SFNM link=topic=50362.msg506565#msg506565 date=1511973485]
I wish I could recall. I may have read it on hardcopy somewhere and keyed it into my computer; otherwise, I would have collected the link. Sorry I just don't remember.

I ran it by Google Books and will try Scholarly Works. So far, it found you mentioned this in 2015 here. :)
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=37161.0
-Tony
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #10 on: November 29, 2017, 07:18:11 PM »
Interesting anecdotal evidence:

Chad Robertson of Tartine Bakery tells this story about his "gluten intolerant" wife:

If the gluten is broken down, what's holding the dough together?
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Rolls

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2017, 12:12:02 AM »
Marco Gobbetti is an italian microbiologist who has done extensive research in this field.  Here are a couple of studies he co-authored as well as a link to one of his lectures:

http://aem.asm.org/content/68/2/623.long

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805216/




Rolls

Offline the1mu

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2017, 07:23:28 AM »
My own anecdotal evidence also supports that people with gluten intolerance have reported no side effects after eating my naturally leavened loaves.

As Tom mentioned I have wondered how much the genetics are in play or if it solely preparation.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2017, 09:08:36 AM »
Marco Gobbetti is an italian microbiologist who has done extensive research in this field.  Here are a couple of studies he co-authored as well as a link to one of his lectures:

http://aem.asm.org/content/68/2/623.long

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2805216/
Rolls

What was your take as related to the discussion?

I didn't watch the whole video but I did note that in the Q&A he specifically said that in traditional bakery sourdough, gluten is lowered but not to the point where someone with CD could safely eat it. (23:00 - 23:30).

I skimmed both papers. The AEM paper confirms that the activity of at least some strains of LAB partially hydrolyze the proteins responsible for gluten intolerance during fermentation. Glutenins were not hydrolyzed (which along with the remaining gliadins answers my question above).

The NCBI paper confirms some of the same but it's a bit off topic as it looked at the action of fungal proteases in combination with SD. The paper also notes "Lactobacilli possess a very complex peptidase system... Nevertheless, no unique strain may have the entire portfolio of peptidases needed for hydrolyzing all potential gluten polypeptides..."
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline RPCLady

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2017, 02:05:37 PM »
I have known about the sourdough benefit, I was in a discussion group over 10 years ago that followed the development of this book, which outlines the process and better digestibility of sourdough as a leavening.  http://amzn.to/2jk65I6

However,  I also know of an additional step that also removes the phytic acid from the grain - phytic acid is an 'anti-nutrient' and prevents the body from being able to absorb nutrients from the grain, which is another intolerance most people are unaware of from grains and seeds.... Have you ever heard of 'sprouted' grain bread? 

This extra step is the grain is soaked until the sprout is just beginning to poke out of the grain,  it is then dried until hard, then ground into flour.  I found a demonstration of how this is done to prepare the flour prior to using sourdough as the leavening for breadmaking.   The woman explains that her family could not eat wheat products of any kind until she discovered the need to pre-spout her grain, along with the sourdough that she also makes and uses in her process. 

 Here's the youtube video. 
I hope you find this information helpful.

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Offline Dangerous Salumi

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2017, 08:32:54 AM »
There is a lot of information out there on why and how longer fermentation times with sourdough allow people with GI the opportunity to eat wheat products. Its very interesting.
Have a Dangerous day!


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Offline Brent-r

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #16 on: December 10, 2017, 12:26:15 PM »
In a book I am reading now.....” Bread Matters “. By Andrew Whitley where he explains more about flours and modern breads than I have seen compiled in one place anywhere.  From what he says people are not actually reacting to gluten, but rather to gliadin and glutenin. The two proteins that combine to make gluten.  Modern bread production with super fast processing does not allow time for these two to combine to for gluten (so commercial bakers add other goodies to make the dough rise. ).  All this fast processing started around 1960 and people reacting to the base proteins started huge increases in problems.   The long ferment times with sourdough  and other natural leavening give the gliadin and glutenin time to transform fully into gluten.  Thus many folks that have so call gluten intolerance can eat soudough breads and pizzas with little or no reaction.
All this is somewhat like to reversal in thinking on fat-free low fat diets that started about the same time and led many many folks to diabetes. ... see the book The Big Fat Surprize.

« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:30:30 PM by Brent-r »
Brent

Offline Brent-r

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Re: Is gluten off the hook??
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2017, 08:32:16 PM »
I made an error on my original post just above and cited the incorrect book and author.  It is correct now.
My apologies.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 08:37:55 PM by Brent-r »
Brent

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