Re: Matt's NY Pizzeria Visits

[Josh123]

Tell that to all of the NYers here that consider Joe's the best. Maybe in Pittsburgh or the rust belt they prefer those heavy flavors (herbed sauce, lots of cheese, etc) but that's just not a NY thing and it never has been. My entire family was off the boat, settled in NY, and was eating pizza there before Joe's was even around. Historically, NY has always leaned toward "simpler" when it comes to pizza. The East Coast, in general, does (and that starts from people leaving NY and opening shops in Jersey)

Also, to compare the sauce/cheese on a neapolitan vs the sauce/cheese on a NY style is total apples and oranges. You're talking about fresh mozzarella and roughly crushed tomatoes on a 50 second baked unmalted dough vs a longer bake more akin to a bread like crust with NY style.

Anyway, it's my opinion Joe's has been significantly better (to my taste buds) than Suprema recently. I'm sure in no small part just because suprema has been so busy they can barely keep up. Oven was so cold pies were tearing on my last visit. So many guys back there making pies.

Thats why every slice shop has hordes of people dumping Romano, oregano, granulated garlic, hot pepper seeds on their street slices? Or why all these newer and bougie places, including Robertas and Nino's places doing like fennel pollen and figs on their Pizza? Lol, c'mon dude.

[Josh123]

This doesn't make sense.

Who are all these NYers? People tend to have a favorite in their neighborhood, particularly if they grew up there. Tell all the NYers that consider Amore the best that they are eating crap pizza that isn't real NY style...

Joe's is an as-seen-on-tv destination. So is Di Fara. Given the poplularity there will be many people that call one or the other of these the best. But one is "simpler" as you say and one is loaded with flavors. How do we reconcile the 2?

My point, which everyone seems to want to ignore, is that there is no best or true style. There are differences. Some prefer one over the other. Some like both and on any given day choose what they're in the mood for.

Exactly. Post makes zero sense. 

[Dangerous Salumi]

This doesn't make sense.

Who are all these NYers? People tend to have a favorite in their neighborhood, particularly if they grew up there. Tell all the NYers that consider Amore the best that they are eating crap pizza that isn't real NY style...

Joe's is an as-seen-on-tv destination. So is Di Fara. Given the poplularity there will be many people that call one or the other of these the best. But one is "simpler" as you say and one is loaded with flavors. How do we reconcile the 2?

My point, which everyone seems to want to ignore, is that there is no best or true style. There are differences. Some prefer one over the other. Some like both and on any given day choose what they're in the mood for.

Honestly, this is a legit street slice and my favorite https://www.2brospizza.com
Those others are likely hyp'd however I will try all three (four?) in the same day soon.

At this time my favorite of any pie besides my own is Frank Pepe's in New Haven.

[hammettjr]

...I will try all three (four?) in the same day soon.

I highly recommend doing that. Even if you don't end up loving all the pizzerias, it's a great learning experience.

[Jon in Albany]

I highly recommend doing that. Even if you don't end up loving all the pizzerias, it's a great learning experience.

I totally agree. There a guy in my area with a food blog and he puts together seasonal tours like going to 5 places for wings or cider doughnuts. There were a few soft serve ice cream ones too. Anyhow, when you go back to back, you can really notice differences.

[Dangerous Salumi]

Don’t forget Bronx pizza...

https://www.thrillist.com/eat/new-york/bronx/best-pizza-in-the-bronx-nyc

[hammettjr]

Don’t forget Bronx pizza...

https://www.thrillist.com/eat/new-york/bronx/best-pizza-in-the-bronx-nyc

Just a few pages up this thread:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg552767#msg552767

[Josh123]

Amore, Margherita, New Park, etc have all been open longer than Joe's. Busier than Joe's and more expensive. They dont make big time publications cause its not in lower manhattan or west Brooklyn. The people are the real test of what's good and timeless.

[Dangerous Salumi]

How does it not make sense?

Hate to break it to you, but there's a reason Joe's is consistently named by numerous NY publications as the prototypical NY slice. NY Times, Eater, Grubstreet, Food and Wine, Timeout, Scott's Pizza Tours, and everyone who owns or runs a pizza shop here (Mark Iacono, Frank Pinello, Paulie, Adam Kuban the list goes on.) Anyone who is actually here will tell you Joe's is the template for a NY slice, and other slices tend to follow that. Luigi's in South Brooklyn, countless other slice shops. It's dough, milled tomato with little to no seasoning, and aged mozzarella in the proper proportions baked on a stone.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but don't go changing what has historically been NY pizza for decades. You can have your personal preferences but this is what NY pizza has been. And by the way, there's a reason Amore or Lucia don't make those "best of lists." Again, you don't have to agree but you guys are in the minority compared to the people that actually live here or come from the area. But don't attribute it to "as seen on tv" you don't survive for 40 years from being on TV once. That pizzeria in "The Last Dragon" was heavily featured and doesn't get half the business Joe's does 

I don't understand the quip about the condiments. The add-your-own condiment thing is, again, something that's tried and true NY. You claim it's because the pizza is flavorless, yet this has been around forever. You can see it in old pictures of NY pizzerias. Some people like oregano, some don't. Some like a little more sharp cheese, others don't. Same with chili flake. I don't see how that is a mark on the quality of the slice rather than a personal preference thing.

Again, you're going to have your own preferences for flavor but don't try and change the definition of what NY pizza has been for decades. The idea of cooked sauces, heavily doctored sauces, tons of cheese...just not accurate and never was a "thing." You can see it in the trend from Lombardi's to Totonno's through to John's and the move from the coal oven spots to deck ovens.

Look at these reviews... 2Bros ftw

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Restaurant_Review-g60763-d2200990-Reviews-2_Bros_Pizza-New_York_City_New_York.html

[Dangerous Salumi]

2Bros. ftw!

https://www.yelp.com/biz/2-bros-pizza-new-york

[Dangerous Salumi]

This guy thinks Joe's is the best and 2Bros should not be called "pizza" ...douchebaggery if you ask me.


https://thepizzasnob.net/2012/07/19/one-last-slice-of-new-york-joes-pizza/

[Dangerous Salumi]

I agree with the guy 

I gotta say, 2Bros has a pretty questionable reputation here... it's very thick, bready, baked on a screen. See here https://slice.seriouseats.com/2009/04/cheap-dollar-slice-pizza-showdown-99-cent-fresh-pizza-vs-st-marks-2-bros-pizza-hells-kitchen-manhattan-nyc-review.html

I'm decidedly in Adam Kuban's corner here... but different strokes for different folks. you like what you like.

If I wasn’t so busy today I would take the train into the city today just to have a couple slices at Joe’s. Maybe tomorrow.

[hammettjr]

How does it not make sense?
...

Your argument was that lots of NYers saying Joe's is the best demonstrates that herbs and heavy flavors "is not a NY thing and never has been". That logic fails for a number of reasons. One of which I already pointed out - lots of NYers say Di Fara is the best...so evidently it is a thing.

I'm not saying you have to like it, but don't go changing what has historically been NY pizza for decades. You can have your personal preferences but this is what NY pizza has been. And by the way, there's a reason Amore or Lucia don't make those "best of lists." Again, you don't have to agree but you guys are in the minority compared to the people that actually live here or come from the area....

I never once made any statement during this discussion about what defines NY pizza. On the contrary, I've said repeatedly that I'm trying not to do so. All I said was that Joe's had simple flavors and I appreciated the crust, and Suprema had an in your face romano and sauce.

Moreover, I refer to the heavily topped pizzas in Queens as "Queens style" acknowledging that these are not the typical classic slice. I'm not sure why you're even bringing them up in this discussion about Joe's and Suprema.

And I really dont care what magazines or celebrities say, but thats besides the point. And I do live "here". My parents and in-laws have been eating pizza here since the 50s. But again, none of this is really relevant.

I dont think I've said anything controversial during this discussion. But Josh saying he thought Joe's is bland seems to have led you to defend it.

[jkb]

But Josh saying he thought Joe's is bland seems to have led you to defend it.

Joe's is bland, but the flavors are great and well balanced.  That's tough to pull off.  I'd like to get there.  My parents were born in Queens in the '20s.  My early pizza memories are from visiting my grandparents.

[hammettjr]

DiFara is something unique that hasn’t always been topped the way you have come to know it. It’s definitely changed over the years.
...

Yes. That's one of the issues with the logic that what a NYer calls the best today indicates what existed as the standard through time. And there was a member here that claimed that Joe's changed through time by simplifying their sauce. That's entirely possible.

By the way, history matters. Culture matters. Italian American food is its own cuisine. Carbone has made it the backbone of his restaurant empire. But believe whatever you want

It should taste of good bread, good tomatoes, and salted milk.

History and culture absolutely matters. But you seem to want to define the culture based on one current pizzeria. I'm not disputing the claim that Joe's is currently looked at as a prototypical slice. All I'm saying is that there is variation within the culture and the pizza style (with various sub-styles). You seemed to acknowledge that, sort of, some of the time. But I dont agree with your comment of what NY pizza "should" taste like. If someone is trying to clone Joe's, then yes. Or perhaps if they say they want to clone a standard street slice. But when the guys at Suprema and Louie & Ernie's have been using romano forever, I'm not going to say their pizza should be different, or that they weren't part of the culture.

What I'm trying to do with my own baking is take the components of different pizzerias that fits my preferences. There's nothing wrong with that. I've never said that my way is better, more pure, more traditional or anything like that. I don't use the words should, better or standard. For example I've never once said that my screen is better than baking on a deck. All I've said was my local pizzerias use it and I'm seeing how close I can get to replicating their pizza in my kitchen. Again, no claim of what's best or recommendation to anyone. Just a puzzle for me to work on as a hobby. For some reason this seems to bother you.

[quietdesperation]

What you call bland, I call balance.

IMO, this comment gets to the heart of the matter. I think Joe's is the canonical NY slice. I like it, but it's just not that interesting. A wine analogy might go like this:

I can drink a very good, correctly made ca cabernet every night, maybe something along the lines of Beringer knight's valley, but eventually, I'm going to get bored and look for something different in a cab. I may occasionally come back to the knight's valley, appreciate it for what it is, but  I'd almost always prefer to try something more interesting.

[CIZ28]

There’s NY Elite which is “real” NY Style pizza and there’s NY corner slice. The corner slice is usually the easier/cheaper made junk and outweighs the good places. The original coal oven style pizza usually with sauce on top is the actual NY Style pizza. That’s the one people recommend, the one you pay more for, and the one with the longest lines 8 out of 10 times.

[hammettjr]

There’s NY Elite which is “real” NY Style pizza and there’s NY corner slice. The corner slice is usually the easier/cheaper made junk and outweighs the good places. The original coal oven style pizza usually with sauce on top is the actual NY Style pizza. That’s the one people recommend, the one you pay more for, and the one with the longest lines 8 out of 10 times.

I'll be honest, I get zero value from this post. The discussion on this thread is about the corner slice. I never claimed it was more real or better than anything else (see my quote below). Your post is no different than if someone had said Neo is the true pizza, or Chicago thin perfected the pizza. Its personal opinion that leads to endless debate with no outcome. My intent with this thread was simply to share observations with a hope to learn more about techniques used at slice shops.

...As I said on another thread, I believe there are many different sub-styles within NY-style, and that no one style is better, best, or the 'true' style...

[Josh123]

There’s NY Elite which is “real” NY Style pizza and there’s NY corner slice. The corner slice is usually the easier/cheaper made junk and outweighs the good places. The original coal oven style pizza usually with sauce on top is the actual NY Style pizza. That’s the one people recommend, the one you pay more for, and the one with the longest lines 8 out of 10 times.

When the rest of the country, the world, hell, even MOST NEW YORKERS think New York pizza, they think the street slice.

[CIZ28]

When the rest of the country, the world, hell, even MOST NEW YORKERS think New York pizza, they think the street slice.

I know, it’s unfortunate.