Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => Neapolitan Style => Topic started by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 02:40:38 PM

Title: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 02:40:38 PM
Here is the entire process I currently use to make my pies at The Garage

Here is how I make my dough: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is how I bulk Ferment: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991

Getting the oven ready:
First, I open a nice bottle of wine - red seems to work best. To get the most out of my WFO, I have to get it 1) hot and 2) saturated with heat. They are not the same thing. I can get the floor up to 800F and the dome to over 1000F in perhaps 3-4 hours. Maybe less, but the walls will only be 600-700F or so at the most. This is hot but not saturated.

My best pies are baked with heat coming as evenly as possible from 1) the fire, 2) the ceiling, and 3) the walls. If the bulk of the heat is coming from the fire, the edges will burn before the top browns, and I probably wonít get nice leoparding. This is because I will have to bake closer to the fire. I want to bake up near the wall that is farthest from the fire (I generally put the fire in the back left corner though it would probably be easier for me to work the peel if it was in the back right corner as Iím right handed).

I like to bake when the deck is about 875F and the walls are 925F+. The dome will be well in excess of 1200F. It will take me at least 10 hours of pre heating to achieve this or even close to it, and I usually stick a 500,000BTU torch in the door for 20 minutes at the beginning to kick things off. It would be so much simpler if I could use the oven every day Ė starting the day with a hot oven. I use larger (4-6" wide logs for the warm-up and smaller 1-2" wide logs for the bake. The large logs burn longer, but the small logs burn hotter. Bake times are 55-65 seconds typically. Ideally, I have enough heat saturation in the walls and dome that I can run a fire that is not too big. The bigger the fire, the more heat coming from the fire, and the harder it is to get an even bake and avoid charred rims.  Notwithstanding, I ALWAYS have flames rolling across the top of the dome when I bake.  

Making and baking the pie:
When I open my dough balls, I am very gentle - no slapping or beating it - and, I always protect the cornice. The top of the dough ball becomes the top of the pizza skin. My dough is very easy to open.  I usually press it out with the underside of my fingers Ė taking care not to use my fingertips. Using light pressure, I start inside of the cornice by about ĹĒ Ė ĺĒ and work down protecting and forming the cornice all the way around. I flip it once and press again the same way. Then, I stretch it over my knuckles until it is about 12-13Ē. To do this, I place the skin over my knuckles and turn it 360 degrees pulling slightly apart with my hands but mostly using gravity. This takes about 5 seconds. I never slap and stretch or anything like that. ďSlap for show, gentle for great dough.Ē   I top the skin quickly (have everything ready and handy), slide the (lightly floured) peel under and stretch out the dough until it is just a bit over 13Ē.  Be sure itís not hanging over the back edge of your peel at all. Then itís into the oven.

I launch the pie to a spot near a wall farthest from the fire, after 20 seconds or so, I use my round turning peel to loosen it from the deck and then turn it about 1/3. I generally turn a pie about 3 times on the deck then for the last 10 seconds, I pick it up and dome it right under the flames for a couple seconds. I spin it about 1/3 as I lower it back down then dome it again and so on a couple more times.

Here is how I prep my cheese: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20455.msg201652.html#msg201652

Here is how I make Calabrian chili oil (indispensable): http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19368.msg189521.html#msg189521

My sauce:
My sauce is about as simple as it gets. It's a 35oz can of Cento Italian whole peeled tomatoes run through a food mill with the coarse plate (everything in the can except the basil leaf), a little less than 1Tbsp sugar (to taste based on the specific can of tomatoes - we generally start at ~1/2Tbs and work up if it needs it), and about 1tsp sea salt (again to taste - start with a little less and add more if it needs it). I always taste the tomatoes after they go through the food mill but before we add anything. Sometimes you get a really sweet can that doesn't need any sugar.

Thatís everything I think.

I hope this helps. Iím happy to help with any specific questions about what I wrote here or other things I might have left out.

The Garage: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14249.msg182811.html#msg182811
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 14, 2012, 02:49:54 PM
Simply awesome....generosity at it's finest moment!
Thank you sir.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: weemis on August 14, 2012, 04:22:46 PM
Simply awesome....generosity at it's finest moment!
Thank you sir.

agreed! and to think the pizza joint i worked at in high school had a "secret dough recipe". times, they are a-changin!

thanks for the openness, craig! open source all the way!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: randyjohnsonhve on August 14, 2012, 04:30:18 PM

More great info from Craig...keep it coming!

RJelli :chef:
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pizzablogger on August 14, 2012, 06:11:31 PM
I see that Caleb Schiff is offering a pizza with Calabrian chiles on it at Pizzicletta tonight.

Not sure if he got wind of them here, from one of Craig's MPM shots on Slice or if he discovered them himself somewhere and it is just coincidental. Either way, Calabrian chilis are hot, hot, hot right now!

They transform/transcend a pizza, that's for sure
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: deb415611 on August 14, 2012, 06:17:48 PM
Simply awesome....generosity at it's finest moment!
Thank you sir.

yes, what Bob said
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 06:19:22 PM
I see that Caleb Schiff is offering a pizza with Calabrian chiles on it at Pizzicletta tonight.

Not sure if he got wind of them here, from one of Craig's MPM shots on Slice or if he discovered them himself somewhere and it is just coincidental. Either way, Calabrian chilis are hot, hot, hot right now!

They transform/transcend a pizza, that's for sure

I wish I was there. I would love to try his pizza.

I got the idea of using mascarpone on a prosciutto and arugula pizza from him. Way better than mozz on that pie.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pizza Rustica on August 14, 2012, 06:37:56 PM
Craig, thanks for your generosity in sharing your information. You have without doubt caused me to gain a few lbs, but its certainly worth it.

Everyone at my house's new fav is your calabrian. I add jalapeno for a little extra kick!!!

Russ
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 06:42:04 PM
Craig, thanks for your generosity in sharing your information. You have without doubt caused me to gain a few lbs, but its certainly worth it.

Everyone at my house's new fav is your calabrian. I add jalapeno for a little extra kick!!!

Russ

Thanks Russ. Calabrian chilies seem to go well with lots of different types of peppers. They pair very well with Aleppo Chili for example. I sprinkle a little Aleppo on the sauce and then add some Calabrians post bake to make a Margherita that will absolutely blow you away.

http://www.thespicehouse.com/spices/crushed-aleppo-pepper?utm_source=g-base&utm_medium=shp&utm_campaign=feed
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Phar Lap on August 14, 2012, 07:26:21 PM
Craig,

What an informative post...thank you!! 

You must really love your day job, because there is just no doubt that you could turn your pizza talent, passion, and experience into a business juggernaut :pizza:!

Adam     
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: thezaman on August 14, 2012, 09:55:11 PM
craig,thanks for the great post. it is nice that you are willing to share you wonderful method. such a simple pizza gets it diversity by each persons individual creativity. thanks i learned a lot.!!!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2012, 10:00:50 PM
craig,thanks for the great post. it is nice that you are willing to share you wonderful method. such a simple pizza gets it diversity by each persons individual creativity. thanks i learned a lot.!!!

You're most welcome.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Mangia Pizza on August 14, 2012, 10:48:48 PM
Awesome Craig!

Thanks for the great info.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pizza Rustica on August 15, 2012, 01:11:33 AM
Craig, I was able to find some Aleppo pepper at a local international market. Its a killer combo with the Calabrian chiles. I initially could only find the " Hot spread Sauce" version of the Calabrian chiles by the same maker, but now have located the actual version you use. Have you tried the Hot Spread Sauce? Curious to know if you've tried and how they compare.

I have to say that the "hot Spread Sauce' is great with just some freshly made bread.

Russ
 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Don K on August 15, 2012, 02:15:59 AM
This thread should be a sticky.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Dieter01 on August 15, 2012, 03:53:39 AM
Thank you, this was really great and answers so many of my questions :-)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 15, 2012, 08:50:39 AM
Craig, I was able to find some Aleppo pepper at a local international market. Its a killer combo with the Calabrian chiles. I initially could only find the " Hot spread Sauce" version of the Calabrian chiles by the same maker, but now have located the actual version you use. Have you tried the Hot Spread Sauce? Curious to know if you've tried and how they compare.

I have to say that the "hot Spread Sauce' is great with just some freshly made bread.

Russ
 

I have not tried it. Next time I order the chilies, I get a bottle. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 15, 2012, 08:50:58 AM
Thank you, this was really great and answers so many of my questions :-)

 :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jackitup on August 15, 2012, 09:37:48 AM
Knuckles up there brother. You put more than a few minutes into all that, maybe even a few hours! Very generous indeed ;)

Jon
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: norma427 on August 15, 2012, 10:30:17 AM
Craig,

Thanks for your great post!  ;D 

I have to read over it better for the next time I experiment with a Neapolitan dough.

I also appreciate all that you share.  :P

Hats off to you!!   :chef: :chef: :chef:

Norma
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: stephent on August 15, 2012, 11:25:16 AM
I view the neopolitan posts oftern but seldon participate.  Only yesterday, I was searching Craig's old dtrings to see if could come up with exactly this post.  It's las if he read my mind.  Many thanks for sharing. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: stephent on August 15, 2012, 11:27:23 AM
From all my typos you can see why I dont participate . . . sorry my keyboard is sticking and I didn't proofread.   
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Don K on August 15, 2012, 11:46:11 AM
This is a really great thread. I can't wait to give the dough a try!

...wait...

Anybody got a spare Acutno oven lying around?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Michael130207 on August 15, 2012, 12:12:45 PM
I was searching Craig's old dtrings to see if could come up with exactly this post.  It's las if he read my mind.  Many thanks for sharing. 

I had the same exact experience. Just recently I decided I wanted to try a warmer rise and was scouring Craig's posts trying to assemble a blueprint for myself.

Thank you! Very generous and helpful. Will have to print it out and put in a binder on the book shelf with the other hallowed references.

Thanks again! :P
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: italdream on August 15, 2012, 04:26:12 PM
Please make this a sticky.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Tscarborough on August 15, 2012, 10:33:31 PM
I have been thinking about your oven, Craig.  Given that it is a commercial oven and a traditional Neapolitan built one.  10 hours to heat is crazy.  If you were to invest in 4-500 dollars of insulation blankets and build an insulating door, you could probably keep it above 500 degrees with a weekly firing of 2-3 hours (which would bring it to your pizza temps), even less with a couple of short firings spaced 3 days apart.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 15, 2012, 10:37:02 PM
Would that be safe in an unattended garage....
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Tscarborough on August 15, 2012, 10:45:32 PM
Safer than a 10 hour burn.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 15, 2012, 11:18:46 PM
Safer than a 10 hour burn.

I fail to see anything unsafe about either. The same oven runs 7 days/ week without a problem.

Without a 10 hour warm-up to watch the fire from my easy chair, where would I drink my wine?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on August 15, 2012, 11:22:33 PM
... 10 hours to heat is crazy.... 

Take into consideration that Craig said the most close hotel was in walking distance.  I Googled it and called bs.  I asked him about it, he said that he and Java walk by it several mornings a week.  It is a good 2 freekin' miles.  I think the Aleppo or Calabrian chili business has put his computer in default mode.  If not, than his brain. :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 15, 2012, 11:38:32 PM
Things can go bump in the night, particularly outside in a garage...but then, Craig's a good sailor an knows all about battening down hatches an keeping everything ship shape.After all, he's already sleeping well with the residue heat so....I've answered my concern....next!!  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: CJ on August 15, 2012, 11:46:45 PM
Thank you Craig
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pizza dr on August 16, 2012, 11:10:14 AM
Man in the past I've had to go through your "Craigs NP Garage" thread and spend hours picking up all the nuances.  NOW its one stop shopping.  Unbelievably kind and generous.

Thanks

Scot
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pizza dr on August 16, 2012, 11:12:49 AM
Oh yeah  +1 on this being sticky.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2012, 11:16:35 AM
Man in the past I've had to go through your "Craigs NP Garage" thread and spend hours picking up all the nuances.  NOW its one stop shopping.  Unbelievably kind and generous.

Thanks

Scot

I'm very happy it's helpful Scot.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: PizzaPolice on August 16, 2012, 03:59:37 PM
Simply beautiful, sir. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: stephent on August 17, 2012, 11:08:32 AM
Craig,
I'm sure you used cake yeast at some point (which is what Roberto Caporuscio uses as well asmany other good pies), but how would its use instead of Ischia starter change your formula and/or work flow?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 17, 2012, 11:18:01 AM
Craig,
I'm sure you used cake yeast at some point (which is what Roberto Caporuscio uses as well asmany other good pies), but how would its use instead of Ischia starter change your formula and/or work flow?

Actually, the last time I used cake yeast was when I worked in a restaurant in 1994 (not a pizza place).

I don't think I'd change anything about the workflow. I would just need to figure out how much CY to use. My suggestion would be to make a poolish with flour and water (50:50) and a little cake yeast. You won't need too much. When it is good and active, substitute it for the Ischia culture. I think I'd start at maybe 1.1% as it's probably a little faster than Ischia. You can then fine tune subsequent batches based on how fast it rises. I'm sure others here can give you a better idea or suggest how much cake yeast to add directly to the dough in lieu of the Ischia culture.

Craig
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: fornographer on August 17, 2012, 12:33:05 PM

Actually, the last time I used cake yeast was when I worked in a restaurant in 1994 (not a pizza place).

I don't think I'd change anything about the workflow. I would just need to figure out how much CY to use. My suggestion would be to make a poolish with flour and water (50:50) and a little cake yeast. You won't need too much. When it is good and active, substitute it for the Ischia culture. I think I'd start at maybe 1.1% as it's probably a little faster than Ischia. You can then fine tune subsequent batches based on how fast it rises. I'm sure others here can give you a better idea or suggest how much cake yeast to add directly to the dough in lieu of the Ischia culture.

Craig

Try starting with a very tiny bit of CY about the size of a peppercorn  for 1000 grams of flour. I froze my CY and just broke of that tiny bit and placed it directly in the brine.  I did two batches of dough the last time with 1 being an Ischia based and the other CY based.   They were identical in behavior during bulk fermentation (using roughly your workflow) with barely any rise but during balled rise the CY rose faster. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: fornographer on August 19, 2012, 07:11:03 PM
Thank you Craig.  I made pizzas tonight using your entire workflow.  This is the best I have made so far.  Everyone loved it and I only had time to make a few pictures. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 19, 2012, 09:04:29 PM
Wow, that is beautiful. Awesome pie!

My son just walked up as I was writing this and asked, "Is that one of your pies... It looks like one of your pies." I guess that means the workflow works.  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 19, 2012, 09:24:38 PM
That is cute how your boy refers to it as "pie"  :)
And I suspect we all will now soon be enjoying many more great pics of Craig clones thanks to this thread....
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 01, 2012, 12:19:36 AM
I had been cheating my bulk rise a little lately - making my dough later and later in the evening. This would take as much as 4 hours off my bulk rise. I had been suspecting that this was negatively impacting my final product. For the pies I made yesterday, I made the dough early enough in the day that it would get a full 24 hours in bulk. It made a meaningful difference in the finished pies.

Also, the longer you can keep your balls at ~65F, the better. I tinkered with the yeast a little (1.45%) and hit it right on where the balls were perfect after 24 hours at ~65F. I left them out at 90F (my outside temp) for about 30 minutes before baking. They were some of my best pies ever.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: thezaman on September 01, 2012, 04:58:55 PM
craig can you take a picture of the individual dough balls just before you stretch. what would happen if you increase the starter? does it give more rise,change your flavor,or just decrease the workable period for the dough.how do you determine your percentage.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 01, 2012, 05:34:14 PM
craig can you take a picture of the individual dough balls just before you stretch. what would happen if you increase the starter? does it give more rise,change your flavor,or just decrease the workable period for the dough.how do you determine your percentage.

If I increased the starter, all other things being equal, it would be ready faster and have less flavor. Since I use so little, the starter add no flavor directly. All the flavor comes from the fermentation. I've found that starters develop different flavors when allowed to work at different temperatures. Others such as Bill/SFNM have reported similar findings. I believe we both agree that we prefer the flavors generated around 64-65F for pizza (for bread, I prefer the mid 90F's.). The starter % I use is designed to yield a dough that is ready in 48 hours. I've found the last 4 hours (hours 44-48) make quite a big difference, so I don't want to go any less than 48. I've also found if I cut back the starter and go another day (72hours) it gets too sour. 48 hours at 65F seems to be the sweet spot.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: thezaman on September 01, 2012, 07:30:48 PM
craig, what is the advantage of your method vs keste who uses minimal yeast and 48 hour fermentation to make his dough. the dough sours some from the long room rise.seems you are both getting the same final results.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 01, 2012, 08:11:53 PM
craig, what is the advantage of your method vs keste who uses minimal yeast and 48 hour fermentation to make his dough. the dough sours some from the long room rise.seems you are both getting the same final results.

I was thinking that Roberto was doing a 24hours bulk and 48 hours in balls? He is also using CY, right? Perhaps I'm biased, but I'd say my dough has more flavor. I hope you will come to Texas someday soon, try my pizza, and tell me if there is an advantage or not. I'd trust your opinion on a Margherita above just about anyone elses.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: thezaman on September 02, 2012, 10:07:44 AM
 craig, that is quite a compliment! trust me i will be making a trip to the garage. i'm sorry i missed the last outing.it is the top of my list. i'm sure my jersey buddy will make the trek with me. you know john "tell it like it is" conklin  :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: othafa9 on September 03, 2012, 01:41:06 PM
You can definately get good cornicione using a "slap" technique.  Just takes practice:)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 03, 2012, 01:58:42 PM
You can definately get good cornicione using a "slap" technique.  Just takes practice:)

Try it with my dough though, and you will have a 18" round after about 3 slaps.  :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 03, 2012, 10:00:43 PM
craig can you take a picture of the individual dough balls just before you stretch.

Here you go.

1) In the container (for sake of terminology, you are seeing the bottom of the dough ball)
2) Out of the container (bottom of the doughball is up)
3) First press with my fingers after flipping once (top of dough ball is now up)
4) Second press with the fingers after a flip and 45 degree rotation (bottom of dough ball is now up)
5) A quick pass over the knuckles and ready to top (top of the dough ball is now up)
6) Baked

You can really see the difference in smoothness between the top and bottom of the dough ball.

The thicker part of the cornice you see in the 5th picture will get stretched out a little more even after I get the topped pie on on the peel.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on September 03, 2012, 10:09:14 PM
Just a second opinion, but Craig's dough is incredibly easy to open.  It's like a wet, yet firm wash cloth on top of your knuckles.  Unless you completely get it wrong, you could almost command the dough ball to open itself.  Seriously.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 03, 2012, 10:10:08 PM
Just a second opinion, but Craig's dough is incredibly easy to open.  It's like a wet, yet firm wash cloth on top of your knuckles.  Unless you completely get it wrong, you could almost command the dough ball to open itself.  Seriously.

Thanks Gene. You'll notice it's just about all the way open after just two pressings with my fingers.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 03, 2012, 10:15:28 PM
Freshly balled dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: thezaman on September 04, 2012, 07:15:07 AM
Looks like you get a lot of activity very slowly ! Thanks for the pic
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 07, 2012, 02:46:21 PM
How I prepare my sausage: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19393.msg201178.html#msg201178
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Giggliato on September 08, 2012, 10:44:43 AM
That dough looks just about right. I can almost feel it through the monitor  :-D :-D

I do wonder about the amount of rise that you are getting in your containers though. I seem to recall some pictures from Verasano's restaurant where the doughball rises to the entire volume of the containers which are similarly sized to yours. I've never eaten Verasano's nor yours but I do wonder about the differences.

Your pictures seem to show the doughball rising to about a third of the containers volume... But as they say, if the pizza is good, eat it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2012, 11:12:46 AM
That dough looks just about right. I can almost feel it through the monitor  :-D :-D

I do wonder about the amount of rise that you are getting in your containers though. I seem to recall some pictures from Verasano's restaurant where the doughball rises to the entire volume of the containers which are similarly sized to yours. I've never eaten Verasano's nor yours but I do wonder about the differences.

Your pictures seem to show the doughball rising to about a third of the containers volume... But as they say, if the pizza is good, eat it.

I don't think his dough rises that much. I just went and looked at his website to confirm, and he says he likes 1.5X rise. In the pictures, the dough is nowhere near filling the container. It doesn't look much different than mine; maybe a little less risen even. Mine fill maybe 15-20% of the container when they are ready to bake. I don't go by size. I go by the look of the bubbles.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Bill/SFNM on September 09, 2012, 07:26:18 PM
Craig,

So I applied a portion of your process to my latest batch. Instead of bulk fermenting for 43 hours and individual proofing for 5 hours, I bulked for 24 hours and proofed for 24 hours. I still want to run some more tests, but this dough was the easiest dough ever for stretching. Almost no stretching required, just a stern look from me and it responded immediately. I really liked the way it baked up.

One thing I did not like that differs from my standard dough: as it cooled, the crust toughened considerably. This is not usually a problem since my pizzas don't have time to reach that state. But is this something you have observed? 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2012, 07:41:13 PM
No, I have not noticed a meaningful difference between the toughness after cooling with this fermentation regiment vs. longer in bulk and less in balls. I would say my crust tenderness/toughness after cooling is on par with what I've seen at places like Keste, Motorino, etc.

Can you think of any reason why more time in balls would negatively effect this? I would intuitively think it might me more tender as the gluten is more relaxed when it is baked. Perhaps this has an opposite effect?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Bill/SFNM on September 09, 2012, 08:23:02 PM
No idea. Something I need to play around with to confirm if what I have observed is true. You must be familiar with Fett's law - Never replicate a successful experiment.

 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on September 09, 2012, 08:29:21 PM
You must be familiar with Fett's law - Never replicate a successful experiment.
 

I knew there was a scientific reason about why the warden gets tired of stuff so fast. :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2012, 02:53:37 PM
Craig,

So I applied a portion of your process to my latest batch. Instead of bulk fermenting for 43 hours and individual proofing for 5 hours, I bulked for 24 hours and proofed for 24 hours. I still want to run some more tests, but this dough was the easiest dough ever for stretching. Almost no stretching required, just a stern look from me and it responded immediately. I really liked the way it baked up.

One thing I did not like that differs from my standard dough: as it cooled, the crust toughened considerably. This is not usually a problem since my pizzas don't have time to reach that state. But is this something you have observed? 

I changed my workflow this week to 36 hours bulk and 12 hours ball. No other changes or changes to the formula. It was definitely more difficult to open though it didn't fight me or anything like that. I did not notice any difference in the tenderness of the crust as it cooled vs. 24 hours in balls. I prefer the workability of the dough with 24 hours in balls. It is also easier to ball with only 24 hours bulk.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bakeshack on September 16, 2012, 02:57:17 PM
Craig, after you balled the dough, are there noticeable bubbles on the surface of the dough balls?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2012, 03:00:48 PM
Craig, after you balled the dough, are there noticeable bubbles on the surface of the dough balls?

Not when I only do 24 hours of bulk. With 36h, there were a few, but not too bad. I don't like balling dough that has very much gas in it (~>5-10% rise). I don't like the way it feels, and intuitively it just seems wrong to me. I can't give anything concrete to back that up however.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bakeshack on September 16, 2012, 04:55:30 PM
Yes I agree 100% that is why I have settled on a shorter bulk fermentation method to avoid too much bubbles durin balling.  I believe  the bubbles during the balling stage gets too large by the time you start using them resulting in the burnt large bubbles around the crust.

Marlon
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2012, 05:08:17 PM
When you are opening a ball, if you see a large bubble at the rim, do you pop it?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bakeshack on September 16, 2012, 05:22:39 PM
I release some air by poking a hole and then I reseal it again.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 16, 2012, 05:29:22 PM
I poke, but I've never tried resealing. If I see one blowing up in the oven, I smash it with the edge of the peel.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bakeshack on September 16, 2012, 05:34:09 PM
I do the same inside the oven.  I figured by resealing it, it somehow maintains the look around the crust and it doesn't look too deflated.  With the shorter bulk though, I rarely get them unless the dough gets a little over fermented by the time it gets used.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 11, 2012, 08:21:10 PM
thank you so much for your help!  Have you posted your fennel sausage recipe on here?  I am into making sausage and never had a recipe I was 100% liking.  I dabbled in pepperoni making both raw/fermented and cooked.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 11, 2012, 09:08:35 PM
thank you so much for your help!  Have you posted your fennel sausage recipe on here?  I am into making sausage and never had a recipe I was 100% liking.  I dabbled in pepperoni making both raw/fermented and cooked.

I use Johnsonville Mild Italian Sausage and doctor it like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19393.msg201178.html#msg201178
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 11, 2012, 09:56:47 PM
interesting, need to try that.. thanks
I use Johnsonville Mild Italian Sausage and doctor it like this: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19393.msg201178.html#msg201178
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 12, 2012, 07:03:12 PM
Pizza bake time explained:

(No offence intended to my deep dish friends  ;))
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: norma427 on October 12, 2012, 07:14:57 PM
Pizza bake time explained:

(No offence intended to my deep dish friends  ;))

Craig,

Lol, that is a great guide!  :-D  Did you design and draw that yourself?

Norma
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on October 12, 2012, 07:33:52 PM
Ha!   ;D  I think your 30 minute man has flipped his lid.... :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 12, 2012, 10:29:25 PM
Craig,

Lol, that is a great guide!  :-D  Did you design and draw that yourself?

Norma

I designed it, but the faces are actually a font named Sketchy Smiley.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: scott123 on October 13, 2012, 05:49:26 AM
(No offence intended to my deep dish friends  ;))

And what about your NY style friends?  I'm not in love with those faces at the 4 minute mark.  ;)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 13, 2012, 08:06:21 AM
And what about your NY style friends?  I'm not in love with those faces at the 4 minute mark.  ;)

Actually, you can't see the 4 minute face. It's between the hash marks.  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 09:35:27 AM
Hi, can you help explain the math to make sure I am doing this right and culture mix, I know it sounds dumb.    My Culture is 54% hydration, are you figuring in the H2o of the culture as part of the 2%?  Also wondering if you start with a total weight and work backwards?  Might be easier if you show me a expample of the math.

275 grams of flour
2% culture = 5.5 grams (includes water @ 54 % hydration)
etc
etc..

I made a test batch with only few grams of culture and does not look like its doing much so far..  still have 24hrs at 65 degrees..

thanks
Rene
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 09:58:20 AM
Hi, can you help explain the math to make sure I am doing this right and culture mix, I know it sounds dumb.    My Culture is 54% hydration, are you figuring in the H2o of the culture as part of the 2%?  Also wondering if you start with a total weight and work backwards?  Might be easier if you show me a expample of the math.

275 grams of flour
2% culture = 5.5 grams (includes water @ 54 % hydration)
etc
etc..

I made a test batch with only few grams of culture and does not look like its doing much so far..  still have 24hrs at 65 degrees..

thanks
Rene

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on October 14, 2012, 10:01:59 AM
...   My Culture is 54% hydration, are you figuring in the H2o of the culture as part of the 2%? 
How did you figure that?  For example if you feed 50g of flour 50g of water, that is considered 100% hydration.  54% just seems low, like it would be dough rather than anything remotely liquid.  But yours may be entirely different than mine.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 10:20:38 AM
Hi, now I am more confused..    I keep my culture in the refrigerator, pull it out and feed it once a week.  

My culture was dry - I activated it (first feeding) with 3/4c water and 1c flour.  Now all feedings are 1c flour and 3/4c water.  it's about like pancake batter when from the fridge.  So the 2% in weight is my culture (pancake batter), maybe a few tsp added?  

Anytime in the past I would use about 1c of culture to about 350 grams of flour and in about 6-8 hrs got two rises.  Could use more flavor, hoping the long slow fermentation process adds more flavor.  

Am I doing this right?

thanks for the spreadsheet looking at it now.. that will help.. just need to make sure I am doing the culture right!

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 10:24:07 AM
My culture I have right now is mixed per-instructions.  My old mix I did alter the mix slightly.  It said I believe 54% Hyd.. with the 1c flour and 3/4c water.  My old book I gave to my mom had the percentage, cant find the percentage yet in the new one.  Got my cultures from sourdough's international, inc Idaho..
How did you figure that?  For example if you feed 50g of flour 50g of water, that is considered 100% hydration.  54% just seems low, like it would be dough rather than anything remotely liquid.  But yours may be entirely different than mine.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on October 14, 2012, 11:22:49 AM
I got close to 70% hyd. for your example.  I'll let one of the talented mathmeticians here, confirm that.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 11:30:54 AM
Are you using live culture from the fridge, or you using dry culture then using it?

Reason I ask, when I followed the recipe, the dough was very dry, too dry to get it to form a ball in the mixer.  I had to add maybe a tablespoon of water to get it to form a ball, so I do not know where the hydration is at, kneading is off from your recipe being I was not able to get it to ball.  Used my Italian 00 flour, might have to go back to lesser expensive flour until I get this figured out.  Although, the different flours behave differently.

My oven is not near what you use, I have a baker pride counter model.  Still learning on how to get the most out of it.

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 12:52:09 PM
So you mix the culture into the water salt solution it appears..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible.  Interesting thanks for helping me get this figured out.  Still wonder why my mix did not ball up with the 62% water.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 01:19:26 PM
Are you using live culture from the fridge, or you using dry culture then using it?

Reason I ask, when I followed the recipe, the dough was very dry, too dry to get it to form a ball in the mixer.  I had to add maybe a tablespoon of water to get it to form a ball, so I do not know where the hydration is at, kneading is off from your recipe being I was not able to get it to ball.  Used my Italian 00 flour, might have to go back to lesser expensive flour until I get this figured out.  Although, the different flours behave differently.

My oven is not near what you use, I have a baker pride counter model.  Still learning on how to get the most out of it.


The culture is wet, and most importantly, fully active. I time the feeding so that the activity peaks right about when I need it. It doesnít have to be perfect, but the closer you get to the same level of activity each time, the more predictable your results.

If you followed my recipe, your dough should be relatively soft and still a little tacky after your initial mixing. You should have no problem forming a ball regardless of what flour you use. For your oven, you may get better results with malted AP flour such as KAAP than an unmalted 00. What sort of mixer are you using? It might be difficult to make a dough in a stand mixer with only 275g of flour. If you are only going to use 275g flour, your best bet may be to simply mix by hand. A food processor would also work, but I canít give you any guidance on that other than to be sure you donít overdo it.

For 275g flour and 2% culture as you noted, you would, dissolve 8.3g salt (3%) in 171.9g water (62.5%). Then dissolve in 5.5g (2%) culture. To that, you would mix in your 275g flour. Your total formula would yield 461g of dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 02:41:09 PM
Thanks for the help.  I believe I got it now :) 

I followed the mix recipe (62%) and the flour never balled up.  Looked like very dry pie dough!  I don't expect this first 00 batch to turn out now, as I did not incorporate the culture into the water like you did.  I use a kitchen aid mixer for my dough.  I have a cuisinart food processor, never made dough with it.  Spins very fast.....

What is high malted flour?  And what is KAAP?  Very high gluten flour?  Will check King Arthur flour.  Can one add malt additive, use to have some, but I am sure my malt is bad.  I been incorporating lighter flours into my dough mix, maybe I been going into the wrong direction?  Might explain why my crust come out whiter then expected.

Why is the higher malt better? because of the lower temps?  My oven goes to 650, I would have to check, but I would guess with heating on, the ceramic stone probably gets 700-750 before it kicks off.
The culture is wet, and most importantly, fully active. I time the feeding so that the activity peaks right about when I need it. It doesnít have to be perfect, but the closer you get to the same level of activity each time, the more predictable your results.

If you followed my recipe, your dough should be relatively soft and still a little tacky after your initial mixing. You should have no problem forming a ball regardless of what flour you use. For your oven, you may get better results with malted AP flour such as KAAP than an unmalted 00. What sort of mixer are you using? It might be difficult to make a dough in a stand mixer with only 275g of flour. If you are only going to use 275g flour, your best bet may be to simply mix by hand. A food processor would also work, but I canít give you any guidance on that other than to be sure you donít overdo it.

For 275g flour and 2% culture as you noted, you would, dissolve 8.3g salt (3%) in 171.9g water (62.5%). Then dissolve in 5.5g (2%) culture. To that, you would mix in your 275g flour. Your total formula would yield 461g of dough.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pete-zza on October 14, 2012, 02:44:37 PM
And what is KAAP?

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20056.msg196875.html#msg196875.

Peter
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on October 14, 2012, 02:52:11 PM
..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible. 

Craig is counting on the fact that the salt will indeed slow down the fermentation process that he uses.  Not kill the starter just slow it down.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 02:55:25 PM
What is high malted flour?  And what is KAAP?  Very high gluten flour?  Will check King Arthur flour.  Can one add malt additive, use to have some, but I am sure my malt is bad.  I been incorporating lighter flours into my dough mix, maybe I been going into the wrong direction?  Might explain why my crust come out whiter then expected.

Why is the higher malt better? because of the lower temps?  My oven goes to 650, I would have to check, but I would guess with heating on, the ceramic stone probably gets 700-750 before it kicks off.

Malting is letting the grain germinate and then drying before grinding to flour. This activates enzymes that convert starch to sugar. Malted flour will have more sugar and brown more at lower temperatures. Adding malt would not be the same thing. You can add some (~1%+/-) sugar to dough to help browning. KAAP like almost all four you will find in your grocery store is malted. I'm not one who believes higher protein flour makes better pizza - not Neapolitan anyway. For baking at lower temps like I had in my BBQ mod (~750F), I prefer KAAP.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 02:57:18 PM
thanks for all your help, maybe after all these years... I will get pizza closer to what  I am looking for - probably not until I go high temp.
.......
thanks for the link..

currently I been using Pillsbury All purpose flour, king Arther AP is that much more different? 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 02:57:54 PM
So you mix the culture into the water salt solution it appears..  I never tired that, always thought salt and culture should avoid contact as long as possible.  Interesting thanks for helping me get this figured out.  Still wonder why my mix did not ball up with the 62% water.

There is evidence that salt-stressing the yeast is not detrimental and actually beneficial, but that is not why I do it. I do it because I want to be 100% sure both the salt and culture are perfectly evenly distributed. This is also how they have done it in Naples forever, and I figure they know a thing or two about pizza.  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 02:58:48 PM

currently I been using Pillsbury All purpose flour, king Arther AP is that much more different? 


Probably not.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 14, 2012, 03:05:09 PM
There is evidence that salt-stressing the yeast is not detrimental and actually beneficial, but that is not why I do it. I do it because I want to be 100% sure both the salt and culture are perfectly evenly distributed. This is also how they have done it in Naples forever, and I figure they know a thing or two about pizza.  ;D

very interesting..
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 14, 2012, 03:08:10 PM
Here is an atricle on salt-stressing yeast.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13441.msg133181.html#msg133181
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 16, 2012, 09:40:44 AM
Did not turn out totally bad, got pretty good rise out of the dough w/o adding the culture into the water.   Being I had to eyeball the water, not sure where hydration is at.  My oven only would go to 700, used 00 flour.  It does have a very nice lightness to the dough.  I wish I had more culture flavor to the bread, how can you get more flavor from the culture, slow the rising down more?  I purchased some Italian tomato sauce added a little sugar, but it has a weird flavor.  Reminds me of ravioli sauce in the can?

Will try the KAAP flour next time
Incorporate culture into water
Might add little sugar to get more browning

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2012, 10:10:29 AM
Did not turn out totally bad, got pretty good rise out of the dough w/o adding the culture into the water.   Being I had to eyeball the water, not sure where hydration is at.  My oven only would go to 700, used 00 flour.  It does have a very nice lightness to the dough.  I wish I had more culture flavor to the bread, how can you get more flavor from the culture, slow the rising down more?  I purchased some Italian tomato sauce added a little sugar, but it has a weird flavor.  Reminds me of ravioli sauce in the can?

More time will get you more "culture flavor" by which I'm guessing you mean a more sour flavor - that is assuming your culture will produce such flavors. I did a 60 hour ferment a few months ago that was too sour for my taste.

I don't think you want to use 'tomato sauce.' Look at the ingredients, it probably has all sorts of things in it. Try 'whole peeled tomatoes' and run them through food mill or crush them by hand. You can also use a stick blender, but be careful not to suck a lot of air into the tomato. I like Cento Italian in the 35oz can, but there are plenty of good alternatives.

It will take you in a totally different direction, so maybe not somethign to try until you get this method down, but here is a different method to get more of the sour/LAB flavors:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 16, 2012, 12:16:09 PM
More time will get you more "culture flavor" by which I'm guessing you mean a more sour flavor - that is assuming your culture will produce such flavors. I did a 60 hour ferment a few months ago that was too sour for my taste.

I don't think you want to use 'tomato sauce.' Look at the ingredients, it probably has all sorts of things in it. Try 'whole peeled tomatoes' and run them through food mill or crush them by hand. You can also use a stick blender, but be careful not to suck a lot of air into the tomato. I like Cento Italian in the 35oz can, but there are plenty of good alternatives.

It will take you in a totally different direction, so maybe not somethign to try until you get this method down, but here is a different method to get more of the sour/LAB flavors:http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14627.0.html 

Ok, I will try whole peeled tomatoes next time.   I never tired that..

The pizza has a touch of a bite, wondering if that's the acidic from the dough?  I do like the dough flavor.

Not sure what I am looking for in dough flavor.  Maybe its a taste from the local pizzeria that I grew up tasting.  More of a flour dough taste?  Corn meal on the peal, additive to the dough, durum flour or meal, any idea?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 16, 2012, 08:57:52 PM
You should have some flavor from the acetic and lactic acids, but there are all sorts of other volatile compounds produced that contribute to the flavor from creamy to sharp. Fermenting in the 60's, you probably get more of the creamy flavors. I find it to be a nice balance to the acids - both flavors you won't get with baker's yeast.

One of the reasons why you don't have a lot of that raw flour flavor is from the long ferment. The enzymes have a long time to work on the starch. I greatly prefer this to the raw flour flavor. You can taste it in real time as you make the dough. Try a little right out of the mixer, again when you ball, and finally just before baking, and you can really taste distinct differences and the dough progresses.

The pizza you grew up with probably also had sugar, oil of some sort, and dough conditioners. It's going to taste different. Corn meal on the bottom would really change the flavor as well.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Home_Deck on October 17, 2012, 08:22:17 AM
I been reading some of your post about moister levels and oven temps.  With lower temp ovens, you would use less hydration?  I.e 62% @ 900, 700, 500 ?  You end up with a longer cook time?  You talked about being concerned about cooking with 60% @ 900, I believe it was those numbers.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 17, 2012, 09:38:40 AM
I don't think there is an answer to that question. I've been baking recently at 60% with an oven as hot as ever and been generally happy with the results. I know people baking a similar style going over 70% and others in the mid 50's.  When I was baking at 750F in my grill I think I was running at about 64%, but that was with KAAP not Caputo - your choice of flour also makes a difference. The style also inherently changes with the temperature as discussed here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21446.0.html. At 700F and 500F, you are no longer making textbook NP, so you may want a different hydration, higher or lower, (and a different flour) depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I believe there are too many variables to set a hard and fast rule.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 20, 2012, 08:55:01 AM
Craig,

I made my second batch of starter-based (Camaldoli) dough yesterday using your specs. Previously I posted about my "failure" using a poolish-based dough using Varasano's recipe. Turns out TEMPERATURE of the ferment was the problem there. So I have my bulk dough fermenting at a nice 68 degrees right now and will follow your recs over the next 24 hours as well.

But as I was following your technique I noticed that there was a BIG difference in percentages of starter between you and Varasano. I think its 1.3% (You) vs 9% (Varasano). Can you tell me how you arrived at the 1.3%? And what your opinion is regarding higher vs. lower percentages of starter in your dough?

Thanks,

John
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 20, 2012, 09:48:17 AM
Craig,

I made my second batch of starter-based (Camaldoli) dough yesterday using your specs. Previously I posted about my "failure" using a poolish-based dough using Varasano's recipe. Turns out TEMPERATURE of the ferment was the problem there. So I have my bulk dough fermenting at a nice 68 degrees right now and will follow your recs over the next 24 hours as well.

But as I was following your technique I noticed that there was a BIG difference in percentages of starter between you and Varasano. I think its 1.3% (You) vs 9% (Varasano). Can you tell me how you arrived at the 1.3%? And what your opinion is regarding higher vs. lower percentages of starter in your dough?

Thanks,

John


John, I got there by trial and error Ė working to find the % that would give me the fermentation I wanted at 48 hours at 64Fish. I believe my number is about as low as you will see here. Iíve been down as low as 1.1% in the hottest summer months. I didnít invent this method. In fact, member pizzanapoletana who is one of the most knowledgeable on the subject of pizza Napoletana (ďNPĒ) is an advocate of tiny amounts of yeast and long, room temperature (ďRTĒ = mid-60ís) fermentation.

Jeff Varasano cold fermented (refrigerator) which necessitated much higher levels of yeast. I believe he also added some commercial yeast. Without the commercial yeast, he probably would have needed to be even higher with the culture Ė maybe as high as 20%. Iím not a fan of cold fermentation with sourdough (ďSDĒ). I donít think it develops flavor as well as RT, and I donít think the texture and tenderness of the finished pies compare.  As Peter pointed out recently here: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21598.msg218197.html#msg218197, Jeff came to appreciate small starter quantities as well. I donít know what he does today in his restaurant.

One thing to note, I like most on this forum, express all my ingredients as a % of the flour. When pizzanapoletana, writes, he expresses ingredients as a % of the water Ė the way they would in Naples.  For example, my 1.3% of the flour weight, given 62.5% hydration would become 1.3/62.5 = 2.1% of the water weight.  Itís the same amount of yeast, but the calculation is based on a different reference point Ė water vs. flour. When reading formulas on this forum Ė particularly NP formulas Ė we need to take care to be sure we understand which method is being used.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 20, 2012, 11:42:06 PM
Craig,

To ball the dough after the bulk ferment --- bench flour or no? I used just enough flour to get nice dough balls with tight skins. Less than 0.0001% of original flour amount. I did not see that discussed in your technique post.


John
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 20, 2012, 11:52:02 PM
Craig,

To ball the dough after the bulk ferment --- bench flour or no? I used just enough flour to get nice dough balls with tight skins. Less than 0.0001% of original flour amount. I did not see that discussed in your technique post.


John

Use as much as you need.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jackitup on October 20, 2012, 11:53:05 PM
speaking for myself, I just use a lightly oiled counter vs a bunch of flour. Changes nothing and use flour during the final process before going onto the peel and into the oven. I do the same for bread, NY style etc.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 20, 2012, 11:58:57 PM
There is no sign of the bench flour 24 hours later.

I'm not saying you need to cake it on or anything. It doesn't take very much, but don't stress over using a little.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 21, 2012, 09:13:05 AM
OK,

One last dough question. This morning I realized I didn't add Ice to my cooler last night. Too much vino....... So the dough is a bit "active" this morning! But no fire until 7 pm!! I put more ice in the cooler. Do I need to re-ball? Or just give it a go?

John
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jet_deck on October 21, 2012, 09:29:30 AM

More ice!  NO REBALL!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 21, 2012, 09:44:02 AM
If it was me, I would not reball. I'd stick them into the fridge and take them out at least 2 hours before baking.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 22, 2012, 01:20:52 PM
Results of over-fermented Camaldoli starter.

I will be more fastidious next time, but very pleased with the dough overall!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 22, 2012, 01:23:24 PM
And the other few:

Bacon Onion
Gruyere/Caramellized onions
Goat Cheese/Chicken/Tomato/Pesto
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 22, 2012, 03:02:59 PM
Looking good! The leoparding, crumb, and undercarriage all look great.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 22, 2012, 04:40:15 PM
Craig,

Well thanks VERY much for your patient suggestions and guidance. The last minute suggestions on Sunday were especially welcome! I made a parallell batch of ADY dough (45 degree x 48 hour ferment) so as to be able to do a side-by-side comparison. There IS no comparison, IMO. Everything --- the rise while baking, the leoparding, the crumb, and the TASTE with the SD dough is phenomenal in comparison to the ADY dough. The pictures were uninspiring  so I left them out.

I am getting a 1 lb block of Cake Yeast this week. I figure don't knock it till you've tried it.

What's the SHORTEST time you ever done for a RT dough? I was thinking that in a pinch I could get to cooking state with a 75 degree x 24 hour ferment? Sometimes I just don't have the time on Thursday to plan for Sat/Sun......?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 22, 2012, 05:14:11 PM
I can't remember the last time I did meaningfully less than 48 hours.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 25, 2012, 12:57:01 PM
I've been using 60%HR lately and am really starting to like it. I find that it needs to raise more (in size - not necessarily more time) than 62.5%. Maybe 15% more size. I doubt even more would hurt and may even help.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Everlast on December 07, 2012, 01:32:30 PM
Craig,

Thanks for this meticulous wealth of information. I used your dough formulation and workflow as much as time allowed (100% Caputo, 62.5% water, 1.3% Ischia starter, 3% salt / 24 hours bulk at 65F, 20 hours balled at 65F, 2-3 hours room temp which was around 71F) to make some of my most phenomenal pies yet. The dough was just killer. I now understand what you mean about there not being a lot of raw flour flavor. There's a lightness to it that, if you don't pay attention, you can eat like 10 slices before fulling full.

Ideally, I'd like to get 24 hours bulk at 65F, then 24 hours balled at 65F. I think I also could have used more like 3-4 hours at 71 degrees / room temp.

I've got some dough in my dough cooler (old wine fridge set to 65F) right now but only have 44 hours before bake time. Would you say the 24 hours balled is more important than a full 24 hours bulk? I'm thinking 17 hours bulk, 24 hours balled, and 3 hours room temp. Also, would more time at 65F yield more formation of gluten or is it simply to achieve the maximum sourdough flavor?

Damian


Pics from last night's bake:

Margherita with Calabrian chili oil & underside
Brussel sprouts, pancetta, olive oil, sliced garlic, pecorino romano, buffalo mozzarella
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 07, 2012, 02:27:43 PM
Would you say the 24 hours balled is more important than a full 24 hours bulk? I'm thinking 17 hours bulk, 24 hours balled, and 3 hours room temp. Also, would more time at 65F yield more formation of gluten or is it simply to achieve the maximum sourdough flavor?

Those look awesome all around and upside down!

There is nothing magic about 48 hours. It just makes for convenient timing for me. I don't think a couple hours either way are going to have a meaningful impact on flavor or gluten development. Much more important is the rise. If you get there a little faster, it should be fine - just get there. It won't work well to cut it off early if the rise isn't there.

I also don't think it will make much difference if you cut the bulk or the ball - particularly if it is only a few hours. I would say you need at least 12 hours in balls. The longer in balls, the easier it will be to open, AOTBE. I think your plan looks good. Keep and eye on it to be sure your don't need to warm it up sooner than 3 hours.

CL

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Everlast on December 07, 2012, 02:45:34 PM
Thanks for the compliment and thanks for the input too. The dough was nicely extensible but probably could have used more warm up time. I think I'll try a full 4 hours tomorrow for warm up adjusting the time if needed.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Don K on December 07, 2012, 03:56:28 PM
Everlast, those pies look great! At first glace, I thought they were Craig's (that's a complement).
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Everlast on December 07, 2012, 04:19:39 PM
Colonel_Klink, that is quite a compliment - thank you! I can't wait until my next pizza bake tomorrow. Now that I'm getting better at the dough thanks to Craig, I'm thinking about other things like really unorthodox toppings. One thought I have for tomorrow: brown butter base, ricotta cheese, topped with spinach and fresh sage. But I guess that's a topic for another post.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on April 14, 2013, 05:13:44 PM
Craig,

I'm working with a new bag of flour and a higher than usual fermentation temp (68-70F)

The dough is 63 / 3 / 1.5 (camaldoli)

Bulk was 24 and now I'm at 9 hours balled. Are these "ready" IYO?

Thanks,

John K

PS I am freezing these for use at a later date when I'll be cooking about 40-50 pizzas so I can't make all the dough at once.  :)
Title: Re: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 14, 2013, 05:21:37 PM
From what I see, I'd say not quite. How big were the dough balls (g). Can you post a side shot too - and maybe another bottom shot.
Title: Re: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on April 14, 2013, 05:27:51 PM
From what I see, I'd say not quite. How big were the dough balls (g). Can you post a side shot too - and maybe another bottom shot.

275-290 g each

The "stacks" of containers are starting to "lean" due to gas production/volume expansion within. None have popped open.

Thanks,

John K
Title: Re: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 14, 2013, 05:35:30 PM
I let mine ferment more than that. for a 275g ball, I'd say my whole ball is at least as high as the highest point in your profile shot above. It's interesting, when mine is about where yours looks, my bubbles are smaller. It's about at that point where they really start getting bigger. When mine are ready, the bubbles are about the size and shape as you see in the bottom shot, but there are more of them and they go all the way to the edge. Similar to yours, they don't look as big on the profile shot as they do on the bottom.

I'd pop the tops. I usually don't close them all the way. I don't want the pressure build up holding the down down. I don't know if it makes a difference, but it might.
Title: Re: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on April 14, 2013, 05:41:17 PM
I let mine ferment more than that. for a 275g ball, I'd say my whole ball is at least as high as the highest point in your profile shot above. It's interesting, when mine is about where yours looks, my bubbles are smaller. It's about at that point where they really start getting bigger. When mine are ready, the bubbles are about the size and shape as you see in the bottom shot, but there are more of them and they go all the way to the edge. Similar to yours, they don't look as big on the profile shot as they do on the bottom.

I'd pop the tops. I usually don't close them all the way. I don't want the pressure build up holding the down down. I don't know if it makes a difference, but it might.

Craig,

Concise and invaluable advice, once again. My hope is that by asking the question here as opposed to via PM is that others can learn right along with me!

My bubbles being larger due to the higher temp, you think?

Thank you again!

John K
Title: Re: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 14, 2013, 05:46:11 PM
My bubbles being larger due to the higher temp, you think?

That would be my guess. The different culture might also play a role.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on April 14, 2013, 10:05:42 PM
Craig,

Thanks again for your help. After 24 hour bulk and 14 hour ball, and your advice, I deemed them ready or the deep freeze.

I freeze them in their containers and then pop em out the next day.

They go into vacuum seal bags ( 4 per bag separated by parchment paper) until ready for use.

Day of use I pop em back into the containers and thaw.  No additional fermenting. Has worked pretty well in situations where I'm too busy during the week.

Again, many thanks.

John K
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 04, 2013, 02:51:43 PM
More on opening and forming the skin:

The dough ball goes into the flour top down. Flip it and take it out of the flour. The top is now up on the work surface. Look at the underside of your hand - your fingers have three segments. With your fingers extended as far out and up as possible - so that your fingers have an upward bend, press your fingers into the dough so that the middle segment of your middle finger is the first contact point. With a tiny bit of rocking motion, roll your hand back towards you just a little pressing the dough slightly towards you. Your fingertips should never touch the dough. Using as light a pressure as possible, start inside of the cornice by about ĹĒ Ė ĺĒ and work from top to bottom as described above protecting and forming the cornice at the top and the bottom. The pressure is not much more than the weight of your hands. Flip the dough and turn 90 degrees as you set it down. What was the left and right sides are now the top and bottom. Repeat the process. You should now have a cornice all the way around. Protect the cornice. Flip the dough again so that the top is back facing up. Use your fingers the same way to spread the dough a little more. It's OK to gently tug on the edges to stretch and round out the skin. If needed, place the skin over your knuckles and turn it 360 degrees pulling slightly apart with your hands as you go around but mostly let gravity work. If you do this, be careful as you can quickly thin out the enter with a supple dough. When you finish be sure you end up with the top of the dough facing up.

Remember that sliding the dough onto the peel and/or stretching the edge on the peel will also increase the diameter, so you don't need to open the skin to the full final diameter. Stretching to the final diameter on the peel has two additional benefits, 1) it does not thin out the center of the dough, and 2) you get to fix the shape so it goes in to the oven round - or oval as needed - the steep launch angle of a short peel into a home oven tends to deliver a round pie onto the stone round. The shallow angle of a long handle launching  pie deep into a WFO will elongate the pie along the axis of the direction the peel is pulled out from under it. In this case, a slightly oval pie with the long axis perpendicular to the handle of the peel will result in a round pie on the floor.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 03, 2013, 11:10:31 AM
This is about the most development I want to see after 24 hours - right before balling. Yes, I have ugly fingernails.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 03, 2013, 04:00:25 PM
This is about the most development I want to see after 24 hours - right before balling. Yes, I have ugly fingernails.
Ha!  those are "Sportsman" nails.  8)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 03, 2013, 04:21:51 PM
Ha!  those are "Sportsman" nails.  8)

No - they are worse than that.  :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: scott123 on June 03, 2013, 04:38:40 PM
No - they are worse than that.  :-D

Craig, it's nice to know that you have some flaws  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 03, 2013, 04:47:02 PM
Craig, it's nice to know that you have some flaws  ;D
Aww shucks Scotty....he's human jus like you an me after all!  :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: DenaliPete on June 05, 2013, 09:34:48 AM
I'm curious Craig, with the beauty you bring out in your neopolitan pies, do you ever put your home oven to work making a NY style or anything?

If so, I'd be curious what your recipe looks like and how your process differs.

Your threads are great to sift through man, you set the bar high.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 06, 2013, 08:36:07 AM
I'm curious Craig, with the beauty you bring out in your neopolitan pies, do you ever put your home oven to work making a NY style or anything?

If so, I'd be curious what your recipe looks like and how your process differs.

Your threads are great to sift through man, you set the bar high.

Thanks Pete. Every once in a blue moon, i'll make a NYish pie in my home oven. But I really haven't done any work learning how to maximize the set-up I have. I do make DS with some regularity. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21992.0.html)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HAMnEGGr on June 11, 2013, 09:56:36 PM
TXCraig1 (or anyone else), if I use IDY instead (SAF Yeast) do you recommend bulk fermenting at 65 for 24 and then balling the dough at room temp for another 24 hours?  Or should I bulk ferment in fridge a la NY pizza and then ball it and ferment it for another 24 at room temperature? 

Thanks!
IDY, I know, heresy.  But I just want to get my feet wet and then will move to SD........
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 11, 2013, 10:20:39 PM
TXCraig1 (or anyone else), if I use IDY instead (SAF Yeast) do you recommend bulk fermenting at 65 for 24 and then balling the dough at room temp for another 24 hours?  Or should I bulk ferment in fridge a la NY pizza and then ball it and ferment it for another 24 at room temperature? 

Thanks!
IDY, I know, heresy.  But I just want to get my feet wet and then will move to SD........

Yes, That is what I would recommend. I have no problem with IDY, but I would never recommend using the refrigerator. For a total of 48 hours at 65F, you probably need about 0.03% IDY.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HAMnEGGr on June 12, 2013, 09:15:13 PM
Thanks!  btw, why is cold fermentation integral to NY Pizza but no no for Neapolitan?  More yeast in NY so have to slow it down a bit?

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 12, 2013, 09:25:38 PM
Thanks!  btw, why is cold fermentation integral to NY Pizza but no no for Neapolitan?  More yeast in NY so have to slow it down a bit?

Cold fermenting is probably integral to NY-style because it is much easier and has a much larger margin of error.

I personally wouldn't use cold fermenting for NY or any other dough for that matter. I don't like cold fermenting period. I don't think it develops as much flavor, and I think it has a negative impact on texture.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 12, 2013, 09:53:59 PM
Before your WFO; when you were working with your modded grill, did you ever create any non-00 flour doughs that were non refrigerated, and to your liking? If so would you mind providing a quick link Craig (not wanting to derail here) Thank you.

Bob
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 12, 2013, 10:33:50 PM
Before your WFO; when you were working with your modded grill, did you ever create any non-00 flour doughs that were non refrigerated, and to your liking? If so would you mind providing a quick link Craig (not wanting to derail here) Thank you.

Bob

Yes, all I used was KAAP. Fermentation was 24 +/- hours in the mid to upper 70's.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.msg117401.html#msg117401 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.msg117401.html#msg117401)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13475.msg133735.html#msg133735 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13475.msg133735.html#msg133735)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13869.msg139376.html#msg139376 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13869.msg139376.html#msg139376)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13775.msg138319.html#msg138319 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13775.msg138319.html#msg138319)

My Reverse UPN thread called for fermentation in the low 60's. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.msg89810.html#msg89810 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.msg89810.html#msg89810)

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 12, 2013, 10:46:17 PM
Yes, all I used was KAAP. Fermentation was 24 +/- hours in the mid to upper 70's.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.msg117401.html#msg117401 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12371.msg117401.html#msg117401)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13475.msg133735.html#msg133735 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13475.msg133735.html#msg133735)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13869.msg139376.html#msg139376 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13869.msg139376.html#msg139376)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13775.msg138319.html#msg138319 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13775.msg138319.html#msg138319)

My Reverse UPN thread called for fermentation in the low 60's. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.msg89810.html#msg89810 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10237.msg89810.html#msg89810)

CL
Astounding links Craig...time to put the reading glasses on..Wow is an understatement. Thanks so much!  8)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sub on June 26, 2013, 01:07:03 AM
Hi Craig,

I use (for now) Fresh Brewer's Yeast, how do you know if you've put enough in the dough ?

From the Little bubbles popping in the bulk, activity under the balls or from the rise of the crust ?

Thanks  ;)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 26, 2013, 09:11:22 AM
I mostly go by the look of the bubble structure and size on the bottom side of the ball. Of course this is only possible if you have your dough in something clear.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: red kiosk on July 11, 2013, 11:38:40 AM
Hi Craig,

I going to give your Neapolitan dough recipe a go with the Blackstone next week and have a question. My recently purchased Ischia sourdough culture won't be ready by then, but I do have a well-established Camaldoli. Can I just switch them out (same %) or are there some tweaks you recommend when using the Camaldoli in your recipe? Thanks in advance for any help with this. Take care!

Jim
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 15, 2013, 11:48:37 AM
Hi Craig,

I going to give your Neapolitan dough recipe a go with the Blackstone next week and have a question. My recently purchased Ischia sourdough culture won't be ready by then, but I do have a well-established Camaldoli. Can I just switch them out (same %) or are there some tweaks you recommend when using the Camaldoli in your recipe? Thanks in advance for any help with this. Take care!

Jim

My guess is that you can probably swap them without any other changes.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: red kiosk on July 15, 2013, 01:05:52 PM
Craig,

Thanks a bunch, that'll be the plan then. Ischia will be ready in another week and I plan to do side-by-side, double batch comparison to see which one I prefer. Right now, I'm jones'n to make some NP pies with sourdough starter on the new Blackstone. Thanks again and take care!

Jim
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on August 23, 2013, 09:16:20 AM
Craig,
thank you for sharing the information.  Your process makes the best dough.  I had 1 question - do you have an emergency formula for same day or next day use?  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 23, 2013, 11:30:01 AM
Craig,
thank you for sharing the information.  Your process makes the best dough.  I had 1 question - do you have an emergency formula for same day or next day use?  Thanks!

I can't remember the last time I did less than 48 hours with the method, but the fermentation time can easily be adjusted with this chart: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22649.0.html)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on August 23, 2013, 11:50:05 AM
awesome!  thank you
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on September 05, 2013, 01:38:16 PM
Craig - I ball my dough into the tupperware.  Do you turn the container upside down and let it drop into flour? or Do you scoop it out with your fingers?

Then you start working it from the middle?  How do I maintain as many air pockets in the crust as possible?  I think I'm mishandling my dough from the Tupperware.  It has a lot of great bubble structure in the container.  Thanks
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 05, 2013, 03:17:38 PM
Craig - I ball my dough into the tupperware.  Do you turn the container upside down and let it drop into flour? or Do you scoop it out with your fingers?

Then you start working it from the middle?  How do I maintain as many air pockets in the crust as possible?  I think I'm mishandling my dough from the Tupperware.  It has a lot of great bubble structure in the container.  Thanks

I lightly oil the inside of the container before putting the ball in, and then let then I just let it fall out all by itself. The longer you let the ball rise in the container, the longer it takes to come out. After 24 hours, it will take a few seconds. Don't be tempted to pull it out. That would mess up your cornice for sure.

Open the ball as I describe in the first post in the thread. Be gentile and take your time until you get a feel for it. The cornice is the only place you're really worried about maintaining the bubble structure - just don't touch it. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on September 05, 2013, 06:52:03 PM
thanks Craig - not sure I could do this without all your input here!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 05, 2013, 07:12:08 PM
It's all about experimenting to see what works for you and practice. I'm glad I can help with a starting point.

I'm excited to see your pies.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on September 06, 2013, 12:01:03 PM
Here you go - this was a good result.  Not nearly as beautiful as your pies, but I'll have to learn less is more - I plan to reduce the amt of cheese and let the ingredients shine!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277297.html#msg277297 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277297.html#msg277297)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 06, 2013, 02:27:53 PM
Here you go - this was a good result.  Not nearly as beautiful as your pies, but I'll have to learn less is more - I plan to reduce the amt of cheese and let the ingredients shine!

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277297.html#msg277297 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25127.msg277297.html#msg277297)

I think they look great!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 20, 2013, 11:07:10 AM
The culture is wet, and most importantly, fully active. I time the feeding so that the activity peaks right about when I need it.

Craig,

As you've read  >:D, I'm in the process of activating an Ischia culture.  Hopefully by next week, I'll be able to try making a NP dough.  I have a question as it relates to your NP dough, do you go through a culture proof as described in Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs book?  Or do you just use the activated starter because it always sits on your counter at RT?  I find this book so far to be a little confusing, maybe it's because it's primarily geared towards bread making versus pizza making.  Not sure if there's a difference in treatment of the two...

Thank you,
Mary Ann
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 11:53:36 AM
Craig,

As you've read  >:D, I'm in the process of activating an Ischia culture.  Hopefully by next week, I'll be able to try making a NP dough.  I have a question as it relates to your NP dough, do you go through a culture proof as described in Ed Wood's Classic Sourdoughs book?  Or do you just use the activated starter because it always sits on your counter at RT?  I find this book so far to be a little confusing, maybe it's because it's primarily geared towards bread making versus pizza making.  Not sure if there's a difference in treatment of the two...

Thank you,
Mary Ann

No, I don't do it like he suggests. From what I remember about his method, it's more like bread making than pizza making.

I simply get it good an active at room temp and use what I need from that.

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 20, 2013, 01:02:23 PM
No, I don't do it like he suggests. From what I remember about his method, it's more like bread making than pizza making.

I simply get it good an active at room temp and use what I need from that.

CL

Thanks.  I just checked the temperature in my basement.  It's a perfect 65 degrees.  That's where I'll be fermenting my dough.  How many dough balls do you suggest I try for the first round?

I need to move my steel plates closer to the broiler to attempt a NP-ish bake time.  I've experimented with temps a few weeks ago and it seems I can get the steel plates over 650, probably higher if I let the broiler hit it for longer than 20 minutes.  Then I'll use the broiler for the whole bake to get top crust color.

If my starter is fully activated in the next day or two, I'll be able to try the pies on Sunday.  I might have a bunch more questions for you.  I apologize in advance to be a PITA   ::)

Mary Ann
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 01:35:04 PM
You're not a PITA.

Dough is pretty cheap. I'd make at least 5 even if I thought I wouldn't bake all of them. I don't like working with a tiny little mass of dough (2-3 balls).

What kind of flour are you going to use?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 20, 2013, 01:36:28 PM
For NP I would use the Caputo pizzeria.  I keep it on hand for homemade pasta and some times blend with other flours for ciabatta.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 02:25:55 PM
I look forward to the pies!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 20, 2013, 04:32:27 PM
If I bulk ferment in a large covered bowl in the basement at 65F for 24 hours, then ball and place into individual containers or a dough tray for the next 24 hours, how many hours do you recommend that I keep the dough on the kitchen counter (approximately 70F) before I open it up?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 04:50:45 PM
If I bulk ferment in a large covered bowl in the basement at 65F for 24 hours, then ball and place into individual containers or a dough tray for the next 24 hours, how many hours do you recommend that I keep the dough on the kitchen counter (approximately 70F) before I open it up?

If all your fermentation is at 65F. It's not necessary to being it to 70F (or higher) unless you need to do so to speed thing up some. I'd suggest watching the last 12 hours. It will take a few times to learn what to look for in terms of the dough progressing as you would like. With 8 hours to go, if it doesn't look risen enough, it probably isn't going to be ready on time. That's probably when you will to bring it up to a warmer temp - maybe even 75-77F. It would be better to error on the side of too much rise.

Think of the first dozen or so times you do this as learning what to look for and how to correct when things are not progressing as you expect. Don't beat yourself up if it doesn't come out perfect initially. SD has a learning curve.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 04:51:49 PM
If all your fermentation is at 65F. It's not necessary to being it to 70F (or higher) unless you need to do so to speed thing up some. I'd suggest watching the last 12 hours. It will take a few times to learn what to look for in terms of the dough progressing as you would like. With 8 hours to go, if it doesn't look risen enough, it probably isn't going to be ready on time. That's probably when you will to bring it up to a warmer temp - maybe even 75-77F. It would be better to error on the side of too much rise.

Think of the first dozen or so times you do this as learning what to look for and how to correct when things are not progressing as you expect. Don't beat yourself up if it doesn't come out perfect initially. SD has a learning curve.

It's also possible that the dough will progress faster than you want, and you may need to stick it in the fridge for an hour or so. I wouldn't do this with less than two hours left, however.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: scott123 on November 20, 2013, 05:40:49 PM
It would be better to error on the side of too much rise.

If I'm going to be off in my predictions, I tend to prefer a dough that's not fermenting quickly enough that needs warmer temps towards the end of the process rather than a dough that's moving too quickly and has to be cooled down.  If, at the end of the process, you've missed your mark and the dough is underproofed, you can always give it a bit more time, but if it's overproofed, there's not much you can do.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 06:37:40 PM
If I'm going to be off in my predictions, I tend to prefer a dough that's not fermenting quickly enough that needs warmer temps towards the end of the process rather than a dough that's moving too quickly and has to be cooled down.  If, at the end of the process, you've missed your mark and the dough is underproofed, you can always give it a bit more time, but if it's overproofed, there's not much you can do.

That is the case with this dough. It progresses very slowly, even at the end. It has a very long window of usability even in hot Houston summer temps. At the TPS2, they saw it perform over an 8 hour window on a 106F day. I don't know what the temp in the coolers with the dough was, but I'd bet it was 80ish.

What I was trying to say is that if it is not progressing fast enough, you have to bring up the temp about 8 hours before you need it, or it will never catch up. When I suggested erring on the side of too much rise, I was suggesting that if 8 hours out, you are not sure, go ahead and warm it some.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 20, 2013, 06:54:44 PM
So, I should use the dough pictures in this post as a guide to what my bubbles should look like about 8 hours before I open?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 20, 2013, 07:17:06 PM
That first ball in the tub is about what I want to see two hours before baking.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 22, 2013, 03:12:47 PM
Ok, here it goes.  Ischia is fully active, finished using the dough calculator and I'm ready to make NP dough for the first time.  Wish me luck.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on November 29, 2013, 06:34:49 PM
Ok, here it goes.  Ischia is fully active, finished using the dough calculator and I'm ready to make NP dough for the first time.  Wish me luck.
Good luck Miss Mary Ann..... >:D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mbrulato on November 29, 2013, 11:55:41 PM
Good luck Miss Mary Ann..... >:D

Thanks, Bob. ;)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: GreenpointPizzaGuy on December 09, 2013, 04:03:16 PM
I finally have some photos that I think are worth sharing and the dough is essentially Craig's with a few mods so I figured I would post them in here.

These were made in an electric oven on the cleaning cycle with no other modifications.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 09, 2013, 04:30:22 PM
Those are beautiful. Thank you for posting your results!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: GreenpointPizzaGuy on December 09, 2013, 09:11:35 PM
Those are beautiful. Thank you for posting your results!

Thanks Craig that means a lot coming from you.

I think my dough was a little overfermented, hence the huge cornicone but the taste was great. Gotta dial in my culture and keep baking. Love the whole process.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: quixoteQ on January 25, 2014, 07:07:12 PM
I have been lurking for a while, but after reading through about 80 pages of your different threads and pictures, I was moved to post.  Absolutely gorgeous looking pies, and that oven of yours (and its origin story) is a beauty.

A quick question about that delicious calabrian oil you make: do you mix it into your tomatoes, or drizzle it on your pizza before baking, or drizzle it on the pie after it comes out of the oven?

Thanks again for all of your work here!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 25, 2014, 11:07:37 PM
A quick question about that delicious calabrian oil you make: do you mix it into your tomatoes, or drizzle it on your pizza before baking, or drizzle it on the pie after it comes out of the oven?

Thanks for the kind words.  ;D

I always drizzle it on at then end, though a little bit is incredible mixed into some sauce and used to dip the bones.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Roman on January 26, 2014, 07:04:13 AM
Craig,

Thanks for the wealth of information! A question about your dough, when you reach the point where find it at its peak window for   stretching as in your container photo. Do you try to pace your fermentation time and dough to open at the desired time for usage? Should you reach that threshold for optimum usage, given your heat related considerations of your location, do you then refrigerate for usage should it that mark? Are there considerations of pulling the dough out of the frig to bring it to an ideal temp for opening? I thought I saw that the ideal temp for opening was at the 64 degree.
Thanks,

Roman
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: quixoteQ on January 26, 2014, 09:15:43 AM
Thanks for the kind words.  ;D

I always drizzle it on at then end, though a little bit is incredible mixed into some sauce and used to dip the bones.

Much thanks, Craig.  I placed my over-load chili order last night!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 26, 2014, 03:31:56 PM
Craig,

Thanks for the wealth of information! A question about your dough, when you reach the point where find it at its peak window for   stretching as in your container photo. Do you try to pace your fermentation time and dough to open at the desired time for usage? Should you reach that threshold for optimum usage, given your heat related considerations of your location, do you then refrigerate for usage should it that mark? Are there considerations of pulling the dough out of the frig to bring it to an ideal temp for opening? I thought I saw that the ideal temp for opening was at the 64 degree.
Thanks,

Roman

My dough is usually in the 70-80F range when I'm baking, but I'd prefer closer to 70. My dough has a really long window of usability at that temp - probably 8 hours or even more.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Roman on January 27, 2014, 12:22:04 PM
Thx Craig
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 03, 2014, 06:55:32 PM
Hey Craig,

Awesome thread. Couple of questions

1) Why does your average dough mixture use ~1.3kg of flour? Is that from 270g balls x 8 approx?

2) How scalable are the mixtures using the provided spreadsheet. Say for example I wanted to make 18 balls, am I better off doing 3 x 6, or 2 x 9 batches or can i do 1 x 18 with larger volumes. Its just that not all recipes are scalable, obviously.

3) If I do a couple of batches, possible to combine at the end and fold in together to do the bulk leavening? Last time I used separate tubs for the two batches.

Thanks chief

Stefano
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 03, 2014, 08:08:10 PM
Hey Craig,

Awesome thread. Couple of questions

1) Why does your average dough mixture use ~1.3kg of flour? Is that from 270g balls x 8 approx?

2) How scalable are the mixtures using the provided spreadsheet. Say for example I wanted to make 18 balls, am I better off doing 3 x 6, or 2 x 9 batches or can i do 1 x 18 with larger volumes. Its just that not all recipes are scalable, obviously.

3) If I do a couple of batches, possible to combine at the end and fold in together to do the bulk leavening? Last time I used separate tubs for the two batches.

Thanks chief

Stefano

1) My typical batch is ~1700g flour for (10) 275g pies.

2) It should be absolutely scalable.

3) I usually keep them separate.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 04, 2014, 03:40:56 AM
Love your work :) Now all you need is a 'How I ball my dough' thread and you are done.  :-D :chef:

FWIW, I have always been taught to have the top of the ball as the bottom of the pie, I notice you do the opposite? Any method to your madness? When I ball my dough, it almost looks like a sealed dumpling on the bottom which tends to allow it open easier when the top is on the bottom?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 04, 2014, 09:02:02 PM
Love your work :) Now all you need is a 'How I ball my dough' thread and you are done.  :-D :chef:

FWIW, I have always been taught to have the top of the ball as the bottom of the pie, I notice you do the opposite? Any method to your madness?

Thank you for the kind words. I don't know how much it matters, but I want the good looking side facing the people who are going to enjoy it. If anything my dough opens too easily as is.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 05, 2014, 05:38:35 PM
Here is an atricle on salt-stressing yeast.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13441.msg133181.html#msg133181 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13441.msg133181.html#msg133181)

Craig, interesting this is touted as an age old technique? One of my colleagues who is VPNA certified here in Australia swears by dissolving 1/3 of the flour in prior to mixing the yeast. I've only been doing this a few weeks, so what the hell would I know  :chef: :pizza:

Just working my way through the 10 pages in this thread.  ;D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Everlast on March 05, 2014, 06:49:32 PM
FWIW, I have always been taught to have the top of the ball as the bottom of the pie, I notice you do the opposite? Any method to your madness? When I ball my dough, it almost looks like a sealed dumpling on the bottom which tends to allow it open easier when the top is on the bottom?

Totti, I talked about using the top versus bottom for the dough ball in this post:

I always use rice flour (which doesn't burn or take on a bitter taste that regular flour can) and a wooden peel (which I frequently sand with fine grit sandpaper) to launch my pizzas and I rarely have issues. I also noticed that when I've used the top of the dough ball as the top of the pizza, the bottom of the dough ball tends to be stickier since that was the same side that was in contact with the dough ball container for the entire fermentation period. Using the top of the dough ball as the bottom of the pizza yields a less sticky bottom since the the top of the dough ball has formed a little bit of a skin. The top of the dough ball is also smoother and seems to yield a more smooth pizza underside without the irregular spot or two that can become sticky when using the bottom of the dough ball as the bottom of the pizza. I'm using 62.5%HR dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 05, 2014, 09:49:08 PM
Craig, interesting this is touted as an age old technique? One of my colleagues who is VPNA certified here in Australia swears by dissolving 1/3 of the flour in prior to mixing the yeast. I've only been doing this a few weeks, so what the hell would I know  :chef: :pizza:

Just working my way through the 10 pages in this thread.  ;D

I can't remember the last time I didn't go water->salt->culture->flour. It's not like I let the culture sit in the yeast water for a long time. It's probably less than a minute before I start mixing in flour.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 05, 2014, 11:43:13 PM
Totti, I talked about using the top versus bottom for the dough ball in this post:

Yep, that was my train of thought and what I was taught.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 05, 2014, 11:45:09 PM
I can't remember the last time I didn't go water->salt->culture->flour. It's not like I let the culture sit in the yeast water for a long time. It's probably less than a minute before I start mixing in flour.

Can you do me a favour and try doing the way I said for a trial batch next time you do it? I would love to know if you see any tangible differences in the process. Hard to imagine yours getting any better, but the prospect is tantalising.  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:

For reference it was

Water >> Salt >> 1/3 of flour >>> culture >>> slowly mix in 2/3.

Of of curiosity did you ever use fresh yeast before Ischia? Only reason I ask is because its hard to get a reference point to how much to use, so I used the VPNA recipe I got from a restaurant and modified it based on your table to end up with

~1.3kg Flour
625ml Water (Bottled, ambient (coldish) temp) - I will used refrigerated bottled water next time
31gms salt
1.5-2grams fresh yeast.

Rest is your timeline. They are currently in the cellar :) 1 batch 5 Stagione, 1 batch Caputo Pizzeria.
In any case my Ischia should be here in the next couple of days so hopefully that batch is the last of the mohicans :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 06, 2014, 03:29:56 AM
Guys!

Need help. Here is how the batches look after 24 hours in the cellar. Ok to ball these and leave overnight in cellar again for tomorrow night? My dad says they look way to overdone. Need advice assay!!

It is about 1.5x bigger.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sub on March 06, 2014, 04:10:56 AM

Of of curiosity did you ever use fresh yeast before Ischia? Only reason I ask is because its hard to get a reference point to how much to use, so I used the VPNA recipe I got from a restaurant and modified it based on your table to end up with

Hi Totti,

For the fresh yeast use this tool, it's very accurate: Pizza2Calc (http://pizza2calc.altervista.org/pagina/index.html)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 06, 2014, 07:08:45 AM
Turned them into balls (275gm) - Curiously my mix was for 8 x 275 balls but I have ended up with 2 batches of 6. One slightly shorter (255 gram last ball - Caputo), one slightly larger (280 gram last ball).

Into the cellar for night two and showtime tomorrow night. Praying tonight :)

Craig is probably shaking his head looking at these pictures!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 06, 2014, 05:14:25 PM
First 10 hours in the cellar. Thoughts? Ignore the top ballbottom left ball it was the smaller one. Top right looks like it has some good raise. Old man still saying I need to re-roll because it will be dead by tonight.

Thoughts? Fresh yeast does bother me a bit! Should I ride it out?? or Re roll at lunch?? Stick in fridge at lunch?? Getting nervous!!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2014, 12:01:49 AM
Can you do me a favour and try doing the way I said for a trial batch next time you do it? I would love to know if you see any tangible differences in the process. Hard to imagine yours getting any better, but the prospect is tantalising.  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:

For reference it was

Water >> Salt >> 1/3 of flour >>> culture >>> slowly mix in 2/3.

Of of curiosity did you ever use fresh yeast before Ischia? Only reason I ask is because its hard to get a reference point to how much to use, so I used the VPNA recipe I got from a restaurant and modified it based on your table to end up with

~1.3kg Flour
625ml Water (Bottled, ambient (coldish) temp) - I will used refrigerated bottled water next time
31gms salt
1.5-2grams fresh yeast.

Rest is your timeline. They are currently in the cellar :) 1 batch 5 Stagione, 1 batch Caputo Pizzeria.
In any case my Ischia should be here in the next couple of days so hopefully that batch is the last of the mohicans :)

Are you sure about that formula? It's about 48% hydration, and your bulk dough in the picture looks like it's about 80%. What temperature is your cellar?

I've never made a pizza with fresh yeast. Only SD and IDY.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2014, 12:03:43 AM
First 10 hours in the cellar. Thoughts? Ignore the top ballbottom left ball it was the smaller one. Top right looks like it has some good raise. Old man still saying I need to re-roll because it will be dead by tonight.

Thoughts? Fresh yeast does bother me a bit! Should I ride it out?? or Re roll at lunch?? Stick in fridge at lunch?? Getting nervous!!

I'd use the fridge before I'd re-ball which would be never. If you use the fridge, be sure to give it plenty of time to warm up. Overblown is not such a bad thing. They might not be the best looking pies, but they should taste really good.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 07, 2014, 12:23:41 AM
I'd use the fridge before I'd re-ball which would be never. If you use the fridge, be sure to give it plenty of time to warm up. Overblown is not such a bad thing. They might not be the best looking pies, but they should taste really good.

Im thinking I misquoted my dough recipe! Looking at my notes from home, it was 1025g flour. Dunno where I got 1.3kg from, and looking at my balls, its highly unprobable that that 1.3kg would have been correct. Fingers crossed.. At the very least the Caputo mix would have been right :D

Cellar is at 17-18c constant. How do they look now? 4 Caputo balls almost ready to rock :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Totti on March 07, 2014, 05:15:12 AM
No good guys. :( Caputo was dead in the water, 5 Stagione still holding but it's back to the drawing board...

Less heat, less yeast. Good news is my culture arrived into Australia today, so I should be starting it with a bit of luck next week.

If at first you don't succeed..
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tangtang on March 19, 2014, 10:37:12 PM
Craig,
I wonder if the Lehman calculator can be used to resemble the dough you make but using cake yeast. How would you describe the TF of your pizzas? My 9" disks are made from 160-170g balls, if I use the Lehman calculator and put in a TF of 0.07 (which I saw referred to in this forum as Neapolitan standard) I end up with balls of 123g. Just last night I baked my first WFO pies and know that I need to change a few things to get nearer where I want to be (our guests still thought the pies were awesome!), for one thing I would have increased the ball size by 10 or so gram - so looking at the Lehman calculator results this morning make me wonder a bit, as it suggest going in the opposite direction.

Another question concerning your yeast prediction model: Using cake yeast 0.3% - how do results of a 38hr 41F ferment compare to a 7hr 72F? You write that you never cold ferment (plus you use culture not fresh yeast as I do), but my current understanding of things would let me assume that the longer cold ferment allows to develop more flavor. Is that so or does the 72F produce good results too in such as short time (7hrs)?

Last but not least a general question on hydration, please forgive my lack of knowledge - I couldn't figure out from the posts here. In NP should I aim for high or low hydration. I thought low is the way to go, but looking at Omid's results http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg306226#msg306226 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg306226#msg306226) with the 72% hydration makes me wonder again - its the opposite direction of where I would have gone now...

Welcome to my pizza rollercoaster  ???
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on March 20, 2014, 06:33:10 PM
Hi Craig - I'm looking for advice on how to improve the dough elasticity.  I have tried different water %'ages.  I have been around 60% lately not really knowing if that is the issue (going to 62% hasn't really made a difference).  I live in arizona so it's very dry here.  My ishchia SD is fully active.  Using sea salt (2.5%) and caputo 00.

Would going lower hydration help or hurt the goal?  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 20, 2014, 08:49:55 PM
Hi Craig - I'm looking for advice on how to improve the dough elasticity.  I have tried different water %'ages.  I have been around 60% lately not really knowing if that is the issue (going to 62% hasn't really made a difference).  I live in arizona so it's very dry here.  My ishchia SD is fully active.  Using sea salt (2.5%) and caputo 00.

Would going lower hydration help or hurt the goal?  Thanks!

Please define "improve." What is your dough like now, and how would you like it to be different? You will really need to describe your entire formula and workflow before we can be much help. You might want to start a new thread for this.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 20, 2014, 09:12:18 PM
How would you describe the TF of your pizzas?

I wouldn't. TF has no place in NP, IMO. I use 275g for 13" but to convert that to oz/in^2 would be completely meaningless. Depending on what you are looking for, you could go quite a  bit less. I doubt you would want too much more. This is all I use: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE&usp=drive_web#gid=3 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE&usp=drive_web#gid=3)

Quote
Another question concerning your yeast prediction model: Using cake yeast 0.3% - how do results of a 38hr 41F ferment compare to a 7hr 72F? You write that you never cold ferment (plus you use culture not fresh yeast as I do), but my current understanding of things would let me assume that the longer cold ferment allows to develop more flavor. Is that so or does the 72F produce good results too in such as short time (7hrs)?

I'm not going to tell you to cold ferment even if you use cake yeast. IMO, a pizza will be better in every conceivable way if you don't cold ferment. I'd estimate that you need at least 4X as long in the fridge as you do at room temp to get even close to the same flavor. That is, 1 day at room temp is roughly equal to 4 days in the fridge, AOTBE. And even still, it won't be as good in any way. Period.

Quote
Last but not least a general question on hydration, please forgive my lack of knowledge - I couldn't figure out from the posts here. In NP should I aim for high or low hydration. I thought low is the way to go, but looking at Omid's results http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg306226#msg306226 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg306226#msg306226) with the 72% hydration makes me wonder again - its the opposite direction of where I would have gone now...

I've had great NP ranging from at least 58%-72%. HR is only one of many factors that have to be balanced. You have to experiment and see what you like best for you given your unique situation an tastes.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tangtang on March 21, 2014, 12:45:24 PM
Thank you Craig
This is all I use: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE&usp=drive_web#gid=3 (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE&usp=drive_web#gid=3)


this already helps. The link however begs for more questions: I can't make sense of the above link, 82% hydration  ???
what kind of yeast are you referring to, ADY, IDY or CY?
if I assuem its CY and compare this with the yeast prediction calculator at 77F (your house temp.) I end up with a 2hr ambient ferment?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tangtang on March 21, 2014, 12:46:24 PM

I'm not going to tell you to cold ferment even if you use cake yeast. IMO, a pizza will be better in every conceivable way if you don't cold ferment. I'd estimate that you need at least 4X as long in the fridge as you do at room temp to get even close to the same flavor. That is, 1 day at room temp is roughly equal to 4 days in the fridge, AOTBE. And even still, it won't be as good in any way. Period.


That is exactly what I want to hear (at least I do think it is for now, let's wait for summer crazy temperatures here that might take this task to another level); for one thing I like the ambient fermentation and only started experimenting with CF due to numerous remarks that a longer fermentation time will do some sort of magic. For another thing I would find it convenient with our small business as we dont have lots of cooling opportunities anyways.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tangtang on March 21, 2014, 12:46:56 PM

I've had great NP ranging from at least 58%-72%. HR is only one of many factors that have to be balanced. You have to experiment and see what you like best for you given your unique situation an tastes.

see above my comment on the link which refers to 87% hydration, is this a mistake?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 21, 2014, 08:56:17 PM
see above my comment on the link which refers to 87% hydration, is this a mistake?

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the spreadsheet. 87% is not my formula. You can put whatever numbers you like in the yellow cells and it will calculate the resulting formula based on those specifications. Nothing in or about the worksheet tells you what you should be doing. It looks like someone was using it for a Sicilian formula or something. Change the numbers in the yellow cells and see how the formula numbers change.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 21, 2014, 09:05:23 PM
Thank you Craig
this already helps. The link however begs for more questions: I can't make sense of the above link, 82% hydration  ???
what kind of yeast are you referring to, ADY, IDY or CY?
if I assuem its CY and compare this with the yeast prediction calculator at 77F (your house temp.) I end up with a 2hr ambient ferment?

Just reinforcing my comment above. That's not my formula. The worksheet is just for easy access to the formulas. The only inputs you should trust are the ones you enter into the yelow cells yourself.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tangtang on March 21, 2014, 10:08:24 PM
I think you misunderstand the purpose of the spreadsheet. 87% is not my formula. You can put whatever numbers you like in the yellow cells and it will calculate the resulting formula based on those specifications. Nothing in or about the worksheet tells you what you should be doing. It looks like someone was using it for a Sicilian formula or something. Change the numbers in the yellow cells and see how the formula numbers change.

 :-[
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on March 22, 2014, 04:28:13 PM
Please define "improve." What is your dough like now, and how would you like it to be different? You will really need to describe your entire formula and workflow before we can be much help. You might want to start a new thread for this.
My dough is fairly delicate when I open it.  If I work it a little too aggressively, I can tear a small pin hole in it (which I fix easily).  I'd like to improve it towards being a little more resilient (towards a NY style dough ball).

I use your technique for making the dough - using the spreadsheet for exact measurments.  I knead it in the KA for 5 mins, then stretch and fold, rest, repeat about 3 times.  Ferment around 24 hrs at 65 deg, then ball into tupperware for another 24 hrs.

(If this is still not enough detail, I can start a new thread in the dough section).  I guess the very least, is that I'd like to know how resilient your dough is when you open it?  Do you ever create any tears, are you extremely light handed, etc?  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 22, 2014, 05:11:16 PM
My dough is very soft and easy to open. I need to exercise care to not let it get too thin. As another member said of it once, a stern look is about all it takes.

Cutting your ball time down into the 8-12 hour range will make it a bit more elastic. So will lowering the HR a couple notches.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on March 22, 2014, 06:32:14 PM
Thanks Craig.  What is HR again?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 22, 2014, 07:04:28 PM
HR = Hydration ratio, calculated as weight of water/weight of flour.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on March 22, 2014, 07:59:58 PM
thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Steve on March 31, 2014, 08:24:29 PM
I made up some of Craig's dough to use in my 2stone (and my Pizza Party WFO). I didn't have a starter, so I used IDY. It's going to get a 3 day fermentation in the refrigerator.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 31, 2014, 11:30:06 PM
I made up some of Craig's dough to use in my 2stone (and my Pizza Party WFO). I didn't have a starter, so I used IDY. It's going to get a 3 day fermentation in the refrigerator.
Sounds great man...please don't forget the pics on Thursday.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on April 01, 2014, 08:06:28 PM
My dough is very soft and easy to open. I need to exercise care to not let it get too thin. As another member said of it once, a stern look is about all it takes.

Cutting your ball time down into the 8-12 hour range will make it a bit more elastic. So will lowering the HR a couple notches.
Thank you Craig!  Your tips worked perfectly.  Just had my best dough ever!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 01, 2014, 08:26:38 PM
Thank you Craig!  Your tips worked perfectly.  Just had my best dough ever!

Awesome. I love to hear it!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsperk on April 18, 2014, 09:51:56 AM
Hello,

Sorry for all the questions as I never used a culture.

I was ordering Ischia starter online and I just wanted to be sure I got this correct. Once I start the dough process I only need 1.3% culture and that is only like a tsp?

This Ischia starter will just last a while sitting on my counter as long as add some flour?

Do want to order number 4 or number 6?


Thanks.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 18, 2014, 09:43:18 PM
Hello,

Sorry for all the questions as I never used a culture.

I was ordering Ischia starter online and I just wanted to be sure I got this correct. Once I start the dough process I only need 1.3% culture and that is only like a tsp?

This Ischia starter will just last a while sitting on my counter as long as add some flour?

Do want to order number 4 or number 6?


Thanks.

I don't know what #4 and #6 are?

I keep a back-up dormant in the fridge, but yes, the culture I use for pizza I keep at room temp. I discard ~50% and feed with a like amount of flour and water every 3 days or so. I don't measure anything. I just keep it at a thick batter consistency.

The only way you will know how much to use in your dugh is with a scale. I've been using 1.7-1.9% lately as it's been cooler than normal here.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsperk on April 18, 2014, 10:27:16 PM
I don't know what #4 and #6 are?

I keep a back-up dormant in the fridge, but yes, the culture I use for pizza I keep at room temp. I discard ~50% and feed with a like amount of flour and water every 3 days or so. I don't measure anything. I just keep it at a thick batter consistency.

The only way you will know how much to use in your dugh is with a scale. I've been using 1.7-1.9% lately as it's been cooler than normal here.

Woops I forgot the link to show the starters. http://sourdoughs.net/ (http://sourdoughs.net/)

I ordered number six. I got an email from the website and they said add three cups of starter for a pizza. That seemed like a lot.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 18, 2014, 10:44:27 PM
Woops I forgot the link to show the starters. http://sourdoughs.net/ (http://sourdoughs.net/)

I ordered number six. I got an email from the website and they said add three cups of starter for a pizza. That seemed like a lot.

#6 sounds good. That's not where I got mine, but I'd guess it will be fine.

As for using three cups, there are many ways to skin a cat. Personally, I prefer making pizza to skinning cats, but to each his own...
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsperk on April 18, 2014, 11:00:15 PM
#6 sounds good. That's not where I got mine, but I'd guess it will be fine.

As for using three cups, there are many ways to skin a cat. Personally, I prefer making pizza to skinning cats, but to each his own...

Thanks for the nice write up, I'm going to follow your process the best I can. Can't to try it out.




Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: flyhigh123 on May 15, 2014, 08:55:42 PM
Craig, when you make your sausage pizza's do you put raw sausage on it and let it cook when the pie does or do u pre-cook the sausage?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 15, 2014, 09:28:47 PM
Craig, when you make your sausage pizza's do you put raw sausage on it and let it cook when the pie does or do u pre-cook the sausage?

Yes, I put it straight on. I don't tear it really big as you can see in the pictures - I'd call it a medium marble size. I don't have any problems with 50 second bakes.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Tscarborough on May 18, 2014, 11:09:53 PM

Craig eats raw hamburger.  His sausage and other pork products are right on the edge of what I would consider safe, if not delicious.  I use bigger chunks, granted, but I like to pre-cook them a LITTLE.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 19, 2014, 09:25:57 PM
It's true. I do, but I don't recommend it.  :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ccpark0 on June 26, 2014, 01:19:01 PM
TXCraig when you make your sauce you say  all you do is send a can of tomatoes through a food processor.  Do you drain or remove the seeds prior to this?  Might be a dumb question but I assume you do those two things. 

Thanks for sharing all of your secrets you have definitely made me a better pie maker. 

 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: blacroix on June 26, 2014, 01:29:44 PM
With regards to the different temperatures folks let their dough rise under...

A long, long time ago, I wanted to keep a LOT of beverages cold and have easy access to them - but didn't want an upright fridge.  I ended up buying a deep freeze that fit into a closet (rather large closet at that) that I then hooked up to a temperature controller like the following:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/johnson-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html (http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/johnson-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html)

You simply drop the thermostat into the deep freeze, plug it into the wall - then plug the freezer into the controller.  This way, you have direct control over the internal temperature.  If the temp is below the set point, the power is cut off to the freezer... when it rises above, the power is turned on and the compressor kicks in.  I can't help but to think this very same contraption would be perfect for long rises - you have absolute control down to the degree.  You can even put in a small fan to circulate the air to help with bulk fermentation to increase thermal transfer.

Does anyone do this? 

Brian
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 26, 2014, 01:54:51 PM
This sounds very similar to things people have done to make salami. Add a humidity sensor and humidifier and you would have a curing chamber.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 26, 2014, 04:37:05 PM
TXCraig when you make your sauce you say  all you do is send a can of tomatoes through a food processor.  Do you drain or remove the seeds prior to this?  Might be a dumb question but I assume you do those two things. 

Thanks for sharing all of your secrets you have definitely made me a better pie maker.

I use a food mill or a stick blender - NEVER a food processor. It will whip in air and make pink foam. A stick blender will too if you aren't careful. A food mill is by far the best choice.

I don't drain. I only remove the seeds if I use the stick blender.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 26, 2014, 04:38:28 PM
With regards to the different temperatures folks let their dough rise under...

A long, long time ago, I wanted to keep a LOT of beverages cold and have easy access to them - but didn't want an upright fridge.  I ended up buying a deep freeze that fit into a closet (rather large closet at that) that I then hooked up to a temperature controller like the following:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/johnson-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html (http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/johnson-controls-a419-digital-temp-controller.html)

You simply drop the thermostat into the deep freeze, plug it into the wall - then plug the freezer into the controller.  This way, you have direct control over the internal temperature.  If the temp is below the set point, the power is cut off to the freezer... when it rises above, the power is turned on and the compressor kicks in.  I can't help but to think this very same contraption would be perfect for long rises - you have absolute control down to the degree.  You can even put in a small fan to circulate the air to help with bulk fermentation to increase thermal transfer.

Does anyone do this? 

Brian

Several people have rigged up wine coolers and other various things with PID controllers - not sure about a deep freeze.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 27, 2014, 04:51:48 PM
Here is the only way I've made sauce from fresh tomatoes that I liked: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32556.msg321770#msg321770 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=32556.msg321770#msg321770)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: fagilia on June 29, 2014, 05:44:24 PM
I do it like brian. I can control temp +- 0.5 degree with freezer and 0.2 degree with cooler. Saved me some time now when testing different temps.
As freezers shuts of when falling temp it continues to drop some more than cooler.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: cupcake on July 01, 2014, 04:19:23 PM
Thanks for the very detailed description of your process, Craig. This is gold to a newbie like myself.

Has anyone tried this process but with a weaker oven? E.g. around the 600F mark. I'm wondering what sort of adjustments might make sense for us less fortunate ones. E.g. adding a bit of sugar for rise - which obviously turns this into more of an NY-NP than NP.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 01, 2014, 06:47:58 PM
Thanks for the very detailed description of your process, Craig. This is gold to a newbie like myself.

Has anyone tried this process but with a weaker oven? E.g. around the 600F mark. I'm wondering what sort of adjustments might make sense for us less fortunate ones. E.g. adding a bit of sugar for rise - which obviously turns this into more of an NY-NP than NP.

I probably wouldn't recommend adding sugar. You will want to change flour though - a good AP - like KAAP is what I'd suggest. It will brown better than Caputo.

This is the best I can point you to on simulating a NP bake with a home oven:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 01, 2014, 07:04:34 PM
I probably wouldn't recommend adding sugar. You will want to change flour though - a good AP - like KAAP is what I'd suggest. It will brown better than Caputo.

This is the best I can point you to on simulating a NP bake with a home oven:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=10024.0)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11654.0)
You and Peter sharing site data bases? Or has Steve given you the key to the City.  Damn you guys are good.
Thanks so much... :chef:

CB
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 01, 2014, 07:18:54 PM
You and Peter sharing site data bases? Or has Steve given you the key to the City.  Damn you guys are good.
Thanks so much... :chef:

CB

No keys for me. I keep those two handy for requests like this.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 01, 2014, 07:51:19 PM
No keys for me.
This joint is asleep at the wheel.
Oh well...
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: DenaliPete on July 07, 2014, 10:33:29 PM
Craig several questions...

First, are you still utilizing italian tomatoes, and if so, what draws your preference to that instead of San Marzanos?

Secondly, how coarse would you describe your sauce?  I goofed the other night and turned my tomatoes into puree in my vitamix.  I also feel like I didn't season it correctly because the taste seemed a little too much like spaghetti sauce, but maybe its just the consistency of the sauce at that point that was throwing me off.

Thanks,

Pete
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 07, 2014, 10:47:21 PM
Yes, I still use the Cento Italian in the 35oz can. ROA1 Pelati printed on the end. I think they taste every bit as good if not better at 1/2 the price.

My sauce has a fair bit of texture. I use an OXO food mill with the coarse plate. I've had more than one very smooth (and thin) sauce that I liked however.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: DenaliPete on July 15, 2014, 09:36:38 AM
Thank you for the response, sorry for not replying sooner.

I am curious...aside from your neo pies, do you venture much into other types?  I'd be curious to know if you get cravings for other styles often.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 16, 2014, 09:35:54 AM
Thank you for the response, sorry for not replying sooner.

I am curious...aside from your neo pies, do you venture much into other types?  I'd be curious to know if you get cravings for other styles often.

Other than NP, the occasional Detroit Style and pizza al taglio is about it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on August 29, 2014, 10:00:10 AM
Hi Craig

As you know (because you have replied to my posts) I have just completed my oven construction. After a couple years of baking in a regular gas oven I now have what I think is a really good, and very attractive, WFO. Ironically, I too use my garage - to prep and serve - I run acoss the driveway to get to the oven which is outdoors. 

This aside, I have moved on from being obsessed with the construction to focusing on what goes in, and comes out of it. I have been very frustrated by the variability in results, even when I follow the same recipe and work flow.

So, I started reading your string, and made it though 36 of 86 pages, and about 50 screen shots, before A) my wife made comments about me not paying attention to the kids and b) thinking wouldn't it be great if you had summed up all your experience in a single post.  Well, it appears you did that here some time ago.  Now I will print this out and study it. So, thank you for this.

You had made a comment on one of my posts about the oven, and then said "especially if your pizza is any good". I thought my pizza was very good, but it is clear that I have a long way to go, not just with the recipe but with managing the oven. The problem I have now is that I built the oven at my vacation place up in Canada, which I just returned from and can only get to occasionally.  I think it'd be a bit nutty to build a second one......
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: tinroofrusted on August 29, 2014, 10:08:35 AM
Obviously you are going to need to build an oven at your principal residence!  Very funny comment about time and attention with the kids. I can relate!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 29, 2014, 10:16:58 AM
I think you oven came out absolutely beautiful. It's way way more than I expected when you first showed up here with the pieces of the oven's engine, and we were speculating on how they went together. I hope you know that the comment you referenced was not about your pizza but rather that you were concerned about some aspect of the oven's aesthetics, and I was saying that nobody was going to notice because they would be focused on eating pizza. As for having two ovens, I can't say it's nutty - impractical maybe? You can't practice oven management without an oven, but you can practice everything else with a Blackstone. That's a fairly practical solution. With respect to oven management, if Neapolitan pizza is the goal, error on the side of getting it too hot rather than too cool. Keep an open flame when you bake. Be sure you have a proper round head turning peel to turn and dome the pie. From there it's just a matter of practice and learning from experience.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 01, 2014, 11:46:25 AM
Thanks as always Craig for the reply. You have great recall as we were speculating about how the oven went together last fall just after my neighbor unexpectedly delivered it to my driveway!  As for the finished product even the local contractors were stopping by to say how much they like the oven. I am actually quite missing having the project to look forward to each day - so maybe a second one is in the books for me!

Also, as for working on my recipe, technique and oven management , I have been reading many posts and am starting to understand a lot of principles a bit better.  For example, I have never tried "doming" the pizza and it took me a while to figure out what it meant. I do have a round turning peel, so I am anxious to try the doming technique as i have noticed the bottom is cooking faster than the top. Also, I had settled on waiting till the flames went down and cooking with just the coals, but that now seems to be the wrong thing to do. And, I was heading towards using a cooler, rather than hotter oven.  All wrong directions to be going based on your advice.

I will have to wait till I am back in Canada in October :'(.  I will have to check out the strings on the Blackstone. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: dylandylan on September 04, 2014, 04:19:25 AM
Craig - I think you're now mandolining cheese instead of tearing it?  Certainly looks that way most of the time.  Is there a post where you've described specifically what you're using?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 04, 2014, 08:58:22 AM
Craig - I think you're now mandolining cheese instead of tearing it?  Certainly looks that way most of the time.  Is there a post where you've described specifically what you're using?

I use this device Wheelman (Bill) made. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22294.msg227298#msg227298 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22294.msg227298#msg227298)
If you scroll down a few posts, you can see the back side.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: dylandylan on September 04, 2014, 02:51:30 PM
Thanks   :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 08, 2014, 09:03:56 AM
Craig:

After building my oven i have been reading your pizza making and baking techniques and I am ready to retool my whole pizza making process.

I am going to try your calculator with a bulk cold ferment etc etc.

I looked around for an answer to this question but can't find one.

There is a lot of talk about ischia starters.

I'd like to get your sense for how important the specific sourdough starter is - both for a lower temperature home oven technique using regular KA bread flour, and the higher temps with a WFO using Caputo 00.

I have used the KA sourdough starter in the past and also have some dried Oregon Trail (Fiends of Carl) store in my cupboard that I have yet to try.

More recently, I have been using a homemade sourdough starter. I keep it in the fridge and reactivate it before use.  It seems to me to be quite active - usually bubbly within 8 hours.

I understood from the reading I did that even if you start with purchased starters the natural organisms in your home environment eventually take over - so you lose whatever taste the purchased starter might have had over time. Is this true?

My specific question is regarding ischia - which seems to be the go-to standard on this forum. On a scale from one to ten, where one means not important and ten means most important, how much difference does an ischia starter make vis a vis a home-made starter? Does this vary for a low temp, home oven technique, KA bread flour technique, versus a high temp, Caputo 00, WFO technique?

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2014, 09:29:12 AM
The question about cultures getting taken over has been beaten to death here several times. Some people believe they do, some people don't.  I've seen nothing to make me believe that a healthy culture will get taken over. Note the emphasis on healthy.

I don't know how to answer the questions about how important it is to use Ischia. Overall, it's probably not very important. While it makes a good pizza, I suspect much of it's popularity is just a 'follow the crowd' thing. I think a lot of other things are more important than your choice of culture. If you have a culture you like, my suggestion would be to use it unless you are not getting the flavor profile you want - too acidic, for example.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 08, 2014, 11:46:20 AM
Thank you Craig. It is good to know what is fact and what is opinion. For me, the biggest variation/wild card is the dough consistency when it is time to stretch it out. Nothing is more frustrating to me than the dough developing holes and tears. I am hoping that by following your techniques closely I can eliminate, or greatly reduce this problem.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 13, 2014, 12:25:49 AM
So I got my ischia starter in the mail today so I will find out shortly how different it tastes (or not) vs my homegrown.

Craig, I have been studying  your posts on your spreadsheets (percent starter, temp, time). It is very interesting stuff. The thing is though, it takes a lot of effort to manage the temperature, the time, especially if you are starting low temp and finishing high, having to use a cooler etc. i know there exists a passion for this stuff for lots of people, and a willingness to babysit the dough over multiple days, but there is a significant hassle factor right?. I usually know that I want to eat pizza at say 6 pm tomorrow night. So, knowing the ambient temperature in my kitchen, I can select the correct starter percentage from your chart to have the dough ready in time. But, there are likely fluctuations in temperature overnight, and the dough sometimes goes faster, or slower than predicted. If it goes faster I can cool it down in the fridge. If it goes slower I can warm it up in the oven. But I can't predict how long to make these adjustments because I don't know what fluctuations the ambient temperature went through up to that point. My point being I suppose, that a calculator, while very helpful, isn't the ultimate answer for me and sadly, my eye is not trained enough to know when looking at the dough whether the dough is at its prime (doubled in size with some bubbles in it is pretty imprecise). As I have said before, it really sucks after all the anticipation, and getting the oven heated, when I go to stretch out a pizza and the dough doesn't perform well.

Given your obvious analytical/engineering abilities why don't you create an app that uses a temperature probe. Temperature probe goes into the dough, other end into the phone. You input the starter percentage you used. The phone or ipad can then give you a countdown, based on the current temperature inside the dough, as to what time the dough is expected to be ready to ball, and what time it is expected to be at peak.  So, if it is telling me the dough is going to be ready at 4 pm I know to put it in the fridge, or basement for a spell. If it tells me it is going to be ready at 8 pm I put it in a warm place.  Perhaps the app can even tell me, once it senses the new ambient temp, how much time the dough needs to be in that new environment before returning to  a room temperature environment. It could beep when it is ready to be returned to room temp. Maybe the probe doesn't even need to go into the dough, just measure ambient temp and calculate internal dough temp based on the size of the dough ball.....

Sell the probe and give away the app for free (with paid ads for Cento, Caputo ....)

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 13, 2014, 11:12:24 AM
Craig, I have been studying  your posts on your spreadsheets (percent starter, temp, time). It is very interesting stuff. The thing is though, it takes a lot of effort to manage the temperature, the time, especially if you are starting low temp and finishing high, having to use a cooler etc. i know there exists a passion for this stuff for lots of people, and a willingness to babysit the dough over multiple days, but there is a significant hassle factor right?.

Sourdough is not for everyone - largely for the reasons you mentioned. Maybe you would be better off with a 24 hour IDY CF formula - something that is very controlled, repeatable, and forgiving of small changes in the schedule? There is no shame in making pizza with baker's yeast. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: cupcake on September 13, 2014, 11:33:41 AM
Sounds like someone wants to make pizza on easy mode..? JFK's moon speech comes to mind. Seriously though, the cons of sourdough are pretty obvious and well covered. If you can't be bothered to deal with them then sourdough is probably not for you.

And if the cooler method requires too much effort, then buy a wine cooler or something. I think that's more reasonable than requesting someone write an app that needs you to buy a thermometer add-on and sacrifice a smart phone to sit next to the dough at all times.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 13, 2014, 12:57:37 PM
My comments about hassle with dough prep might have come across as laziness but that wasn't what I intended. It had more to do with a desire to improve the spontaneity of being able to serve good (optimal) sourdough tasting pizza without having to plan two days in advance. 

I love the taste of sourdough, and I actually like the process of maintaining and preparing the culture itself. I actually have two different cultures on the go and a third (dried) in my cupboard - much to my wife's chagrin. So I would like to stick with it.

However, perhaps a 24 hour ferment is insufficient to get a real sourdough flavour and I am just kidding myself?  If that is the case then maybe I should use yeast when I want pizza the next day, and save the sourdough when I can plan two days out? However, my personal view is that even in 24 hours I can pick up a distinct sour dough taste, so given that, I would like to figure out how to improve the consistency.

I know Craig you seem to do most of yours at 24 + 24, with a cool ferment, so you have zeroed in on an optimal time for best taste and handling.  I don't doubt this for a minute. The spreadsheet however shows that a less than 24 hour lead time is achievable and at pretty close to room temperatures, with a 9 percent or so starter. I assume because this range remains within the green cells that it performs to an acceptable standard. I assume it is subpar relative to lower starter percentages, longer cooler ferments, but as long as it still tastes like sourdough I am cool with that.

Given the already subopimal performance of a short ferment, high starter percentage relative to Craig's ideal protocol, the idea for the app was really centered on how I might fine tune control over the dough rather than having the dough control me. I don't think it is such a dumb idea, who doesn't have an "old" smartphone or iPod laying around, and a temp probe would be a minimal cost. I can probably get one of my kids to write the code as a science fair project......
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on September 13, 2014, 01:01:06 PM
Oh, and PS.  I actually do have one of those single bottle electric wine coolers sitting unused in my cupboard. Thanks for the idea! If the temp is right, I can connect that to a timer it could be just the ticket.....
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 13, 2014, 02:16:15 PM
I know Craig you seem to do most of yours at 24 + 24, with a cool ferment, so you have zeroed in on an optimal time for best taste and handling.  I don't doubt this for a minute. The spreadsheet however shows that a less than 24 hour lead time is achievable and at pretty close to room temperatures, with a 9 percent or so starter. I assume because this range remains within the green cells that it performs to an acceptable standard. I assume it is subpar relative to lower starter percentages, longer cooler ferments, but as long as it still tastes like sourdough I am cool with that.

The green simply indicates that is the range of time-temp-% that I'm most confident in accuracy wise. It's not a judgement on the quality of the end product.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: skipreid45 on September 15, 2014, 11:39:31 AM
Craig I used your sauce recipe yesterday. I have previously used Cento San Marz tomatoes. I agree with you now. I also like
the taste of the Cento Italian tomatoes on a pizza better than the San Marz. Thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on October 14, 2014, 10:48:29 PM
After not having access to my WFO for over a month I may have gotten a bit overzealous when I finally got to use it. I was totally psyched to make the best pizza ever for my duck confit and champagne packing visitors from Marseilles. So I did a 60 percent hydration with Caputo 00, 1.5 percent ischia(new for me). I bulk fermented at 64 degrees for 32 hours, then balls at 72 degrees for about 8 hours - no rise at all so I put it beside a wood stove at about 82 degrees for 4 hours and got a bit of rise. I thought the lack of rise was not a particularly good sign. However, it seemed to stretch out very well, perhaps the best I have made in that regard. I fired my oven for about 5 hours with a pretty large fire.  It was over 1000 degrees, pushing 1100 whenever the infrared thermometer registered a temp instead of just saying "HI" (wine has erased some of my memory). I admit I was compelled to fire the heck out of it after reading Craig's posts about saturating with heat, flame rolling across the ceiling etc. 

The bottom of the pizza(s) burned very quickly, in what seemed like a few seconds, before the top was near done and then when I domed to finish the top the whole pizza combusted into flames! No joke. Never seen that before! Maybe it was the buffalo moz - which was a new addition as well.

My guests, were very gracious but that first pizza really, really sucked. By the time I got to pizza number 4 it was OK - but far from my best. So - since this was a new starter, new recipe, new fermentation schedule, new cheese AND a hotter than hell oven, I am at a bit of a loss to know where I went wrong (other then everywhere).

So I have two questions - after reading about saturating the oven with heat I assumed hotter was better. It seems not to be so? Is there an optimal temperature?  Second - can the oven be damaged by excessive heat?  It looks OK to me. I have not noticed any cracks..... ::)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Serpentelli on October 16, 2014, 11:59:52 AM
After not having access to my WFO for over a month I may have gotten a bit overzealous when I finally got to use it. I was totally psyched to make the best pizza ever for my duck confit and champagne packing visitors from Marseilles. So I did a 60 percent hydration with Caputo 00, 1.5 percent ischia(new for me). I bulk fermented at 64 degrees for 32 hours, then balls at 72 degrees for about 8 hours - no rise at all so I put it beside a wood stove at about 82 degrees for 4 hours and got a bit of rise. I thought the lack of rise was not a particularly good sign. However, it seemed to stretch out very well, perhaps the best I have made in that regard. I fired my oven for about 5 hours with a pretty large fire.  It was over 1000 degrees, pushing 1100 whenever the infrared thermometer registered a temp instead of just saying "HI" (wine has erased some of my memory). I admit I was compelled to fire the heck out of it after reading Craig's posts about saturating with heat, flame rolling across the ceiling etc. 

The bottom of the pizza(s) burned very quickly, in what seemed like a few seconds, before the top was near done and then when I domed to finish the top the whole pizza combusted into flames! No joke. Never seen that before! Maybe it was the buffalo moz - which was a new addition as well.

My guests, were very gracious but that first pizza really, really sucked. By the time I got to pizza number 4 it was OK - but far from my best. So - since this was a new starter, new recipe, new fermentation schedule, new cheese AND a hotter than hell oven, I am at a bit of a loss to know where I went wrong (other then everywhere).

So I have two questions - after reading about saturating the oven with heat I assumed hotter was better. It seems not to be so? Is there an optimal temperature?  Second - can the oven be damaged by excessive heat?  It looks OK to me. I have not noticed any cracks..... ::)

SC,

I was fortunate to be in attendance at the TPS III this past weekend. One of the MANY things that I learned was the the way that Craig fires his cold oven. My impression prior to TPS III was that a 4 or 5 hour RAGING fire was a good way to saturate my oven. But when I showed up at Craig's garage around 9 or 10 Sat AM I looked in his oven to find a relatively mild/small fire buring at a slow pace. This carried on throughout the day and just before it was ready to bake (6 or 7 pm) he had a beautiful bed of glowing red embers. Which he subsequently used as a base to create the "rolling flames" with small pieces of fresh wood, intermittently added throughout the night.

So in terms of oven management, I will DEFINITELY be adopting this technique of cold-firing the oven next time. Even though it may be an 8 hour heat-up period, I will probably end up using less wood than I do with my current "Fuego from Hades" technique. My impression was that Craig's oven had the very distinct temperature zones that he talks about, and that these zones remained very consistent throughout the evening.


John K
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SC on October 18, 2014, 09:38:49 PM
Tthank you for the tip! I will try it out.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mitchjg on November 16, 2014, 09:16:28 PM
Hi Craig:

I have a question about rotating the pies in the oven with your turning peel.  Assuming the fire is on the left (I think you do that), then do you spin the pies clockwise or counter-clockwise? 

I think the way I am doing it - clockwise by coming to the pie from the right side to spin it, especially since I have a pretty small oven, may be causing some unnecessary unevenness in the bake (the side that starts facing the fire lingers in the back/sides the longest and rotates to the front at the end of the bake).

I was reading Tony G's "The Pizza Bible" and he rotates counter-clockwise.  I later saw a couple of videos and photos and saw the same.   I then started to wonder if it actually made a difference.

Thanks,
Mitch
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 17, 2014, 08:37:21 AM
Hi Craig:

I have a question about rotating the pies in the oven with your turning peel.  Assuming the fire is on the left (I think you do that), then do you spin the pies clockwise or counter-clockwise? 

I think the way I am doing it - clockwise by coming to the pie from the right side to spin it, especially since I have a pretty small oven, may be causing some unnecessary unevenness in the bake (the side that starts facing the fire lingers in the back/sides the longest and rotates to the front at the end of the bake).

I was reading Tony G's "The Pizza Bible" and he rotates counter-clockwise.  I later saw a couple of videos and photos and saw the same.   I then started to wonder if it actually made a difference.

Thanks,
Mitch

I rotate counter clockwise. My fire is on the left, and I come at the pie also from the left, between the fire and the pie. The peel does block a little IR, you can see it cast a shadow on the pie. If you come at it from the right, you tilt the pie towards the fire, increasing exposure to the IR.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mitchjg on November 17, 2014, 09:35:15 AM
That makes sense.  My tight quarters makes it a little difficult for me to come in from the left without the paddle knocking into the fire, but I will give it a try.  - Thanks, Mitch
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: crawsdaddy on January 22, 2015, 12:33:22 PM
I just read this thread for the 4th or 5th time and pick up something new each time. For the first time, I noticed that you state in this thread your percentages are without preferment included. Is that the case as you discuss different HRs in other posts?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 22, 2015, 12:45:03 PM
I just read this thread for the 4th or 5th time and pick up something new each time. For the first time, I noticed that you state in this thread your percentages are without preferment included. Is that the case as you discuss different HRs in other posts?

At 1.3% - 1.9% starter, it's immaterial to the overall HR. It might increase my final hydration from 61.5% to 61.9%. I rarely discuss using a culture in any context other than this. At some point, you might want to take it into account.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bxtzd3 on January 23, 2015, 09:12:26 AM
Graig,
 Thank u for the starter help. Between you and ed from soudo i have my dough together. Now in that topic. I found that after 12 hours in the counter my dough was very wet. Felt great after mixing but not today. I reballed with more flour to try and correct it. Its either gonna be the best i ever had or trash.  This gm pizza flour i think is not holding up to task.  I followed your %and came out for 1700g of flour should have been 1062g water. I dont know we will see .
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2015, 05:04:29 PM
I've used the GM flour with beautiful results. It's my second favorite flour and only very slightly behind Caputo Pizzeria. That sounds like a bit more water than I use, but it should be  OK.

Interesting comment about following both me and Ed. Last recipe I saw from him for pizza dough was about as far from what I do as could possibly be imagined. I'm curious what parts of what you do you took from each of us?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bxtzd3 on January 23, 2015, 05:34:00 PM
Ed was more the starter end. I shot him the pics of my starter and he added to your statements about how to move Forward.  Now as far as dough its on my counter balled in containers. I will give it a shot tomorrow.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 23, 2015, 05:39:26 PM
Look forward to seeing pics.

Don't worry about it if it's not perfect the first time. Using a starter takes work, but it's worth it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bxtzd3 on January 24, 2015, 08:31:58 AM
Look like it kicked in
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: dylandylan on February 28, 2015, 02:37:56 PM
Saw this and thought of you Craig, would look equally good filled to the ears with chili oil.

http://www.wholesaleitalianfood.com/tutto-calabria-long-hot-chili-peppers-glass-jar-pig.html
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 28, 2015, 02:43:39 PM
That's awesome.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jpdebs52 on April 30, 2015, 07:25:32 PM
Hey Craig
Thank you so much for the information you have posted. I was wondering how do you control the rise of dough that you will want to use later in the day.  After the 24 hour ball rise do you put them in the refrigerator. So if you are baking pies at 1pm then you want to bake at 8pm. Also the IDY I see you said .03% so if you are using 500 grams of flour you are saying to use 1.5 grams of yeast?

Thank you very much. Your knowledge is unbelievable
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 30, 2015, 08:26:30 PM
I was wondering how do you control the rise of dough that you will want to use later in the day. 

I time my dough to be ready when I'm ready to bake, and it has a good 8 hours or more window of usability. I can count on one hand how many times I've started my bake before 6pm, so 8 hours is more than enough. I'm pretty sure it could go 10-12 with no problem if I kept it 66-68F or so.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on May 17, 2015, 07:35:09 PM
Hey Craig - what's the lowest %'age you've dropped the salt to in your formula?  I'm looking to reduce the amount of sodium in my diet and trying to figure out how far to take it without compromising the great results?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 17, 2015, 08:42:48 PM
Hey Craig - what's the lowest %'age you've dropped the salt to in your formula?  I'm looking to reduce the amount of sodium in my diet and trying to figure out how far to take it without compromising the great results?

2.7%

I'm sure you can go lower. My gut feeling is that below 2.0%, you will start loosing quality rapidly.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on May 17, 2015, 09:51:02 PM
thanks Craig!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 18, 2015, 03:53:53 PM
Hi Craig,

If I use fresh yeast or dry yeast, what amounts should I be using?
I know they are not great but which one do you recommend of the two?

TIA,
Michele
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 18, 2015, 03:58:45 PM
Hi Craig,

If I use fresh yeast or dry yeast, what amounts should I be using?
I know they are not great but which one do you recommend of the two?

TIA,
Michele

They can be great - just different. I made some with IDY a couple weeks ago. 0.025% IDY is pretty much a direct swap for the sourdough culture: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg379254#msg379254

This table can help you find a starting point for IDY/ADY/CY at other time/temp combinations: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 18, 2015, 04:54:50 PM
They can be great - just different. I made some with IDY a couple weeks ago. 0.025% IDY is pretty much a direct swap for the sourdough culture: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg379254#msg379254

This table can help you find a starting point for IDY/ADY/CY at other time/temp combinations: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933

Thank you.
So between Fresh Yeast, ADY or IDY, is there one you would recommend?
Also, i picked up this from the supermarket, what do you think? http://redstaryeast.com/platinum/product-info/

And last but not least, how can I get some leoparding on my crust?? :)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 18, 2015, 05:00:07 PM
Thank you.
So between Fresh Yeast, ADY or IDY, is there one you would recommend?
Also, i picked up this from the supermarket, what do you think? http://redstaryeast.com/platinum/product-info/

And last but not least, how can I get some leoparding on my crust?? :)

I like IDY. I don't know anything about the Red Star Platinum. It's IDY with some sort of dough conditioner.

The best advice I can give for leoparding is longer fermentation (24 hours+) and high heat (850F+).
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: f.montoya on May 18, 2015, 10:56:27 PM


...The best advice I can give for leoparding is longer fermentation (24 hours+) and high heat (850F+).

...and keep your doughballs on the cool side, not cold. And don't let them get warm.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 19, 2015, 01:08:29 AM
They can be great - just different. I made some with IDY a couple weeks ago. 0.025% IDY is pretty much a direct swap for the sourdough culture: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg379254#msg379254

This table can help you find a starting point for IDY/ADY/CY at other time/temp combinations: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933
So basically on 2 kg of flour I would only put 0.5 g of IDY?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 19, 2015, 08:35:01 AM
So basically on 2 kg of flour I would only put 0.5 g of IDY?

Yes.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pete-zza on May 19, 2015, 10:29:33 AM
I like IDY. I don't know anything about the Red Star Platinum. It's IDY with some sort of dough conditioner.

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20951.msg209888#msg209888 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20951.msg209888#msg209888)

Peter
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 19, 2015, 03:02:00 PM
Yes.

Thanks Craig.
I couldn't really measure 0.5 grams on my scale so I may have put around 1 gram of IDY.
It has been already 15 hours but I was thinking to keep it for 24 hours in bulk and 20 hours in balls.
Temp is 65f
How should I proceed?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 19, 2015, 03:31:40 PM
Since you are using IDY, if it looks like it's progressing too fast, throw it in the fridge. If you think you put in 1g, I'd probably suggest balling it and putting it in the fridge now. Extra time in balls won't be much of a big deal if the time is in the fridge. Just be sure to give the balls a couple hours at room temp before you bake them.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: live4u on May 20, 2015, 12:33:42 AM
Craig
Newbie on this thread ;) Want to try to make a Neapolitan. Still getting there for the NY style but would love to experience and make the naples famous :D

I saw you mentioning about different red caputo flours. If there are multiple, does 00 red caputo work for neapolitan or is there a specific in 00 itself that I need to buy?

Will 24 hr day ferment good for this or should I follow the 48 hr one ? I also see no ADY or IDY, so do I need to prep the fully active yeast or borrow it? I also saw 40-45F of water. Isnt that too cold for yeast?

Appreciate your responses.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2015, 08:35:07 AM
Craig
Newbie on this thread ;) Want to try to make a Neapolitan. Still getting there for the NY style but would love to experience and make the naples famous :D

I saw you mentioning about different red caputo flours. If there are multiple, does 00 red caputo work for neapolitan or is there a specific in 00 itself that I need to buy?

Will 24 hr day ferment good for this or should I follow the 48 hr one ? I also see no ADY or IDY, so do I need to prep the fully active yeast or borrow it? I also saw 40-45F of water. Isnt that too cold for yeast?

Appreciate your responses.

Any of those flours will work. The odds of you seeing Caputo Renforzato whichcomes in the 25kg red bag are probably slim. You might find Caputo Chef's Flour which comes in a 1kg red bag. The one I prefer is Caputo Pizzeria which comes in a 25kg blue bag. Sometimes you can find it repacked in smaller bags or sold in bulk. There are other '00' flours that will work as well.

For 24 hours, I would use 0.06% IDY and probably do all 24 hours in balls. For 48 hours, I'd use 0.025% and do 24 hours in bulk and 24 hours in balls. In both cases, I'd keep the dough around 60F the whole time. You can use this table to help find other starting places: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933

I do use cold water as you noted. The method described in this thread using a tiny quantity of yeast and extended fermentation at room temperature is not the easiest way to make dough. It will require experimentation and tweaking to get it to come out the way you want it.

If you have never had Neapolitan pizza, you might first find a Neapolitan pizzeria and go try it so that you know what is the target you are trying to replicate. If "Bay area" on your profile means San Francisco, you will have no problem finding a good place to try.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: live4u on May 20, 2015, 11:45:36 AM
Any of those flours will work. The odds of you seeing Caputo Renforzato whichcomes in the 25kg red bag are probably slim. You might find Caputo Chef's Flour which comes in a 1kg red bag. The one I prefer is Caputo Pizzeria which comes in a 25kg blue bag. Sometimes you can find it repacked in smaller bags or sold in bulk. There are other '00' flours that will work as well.

For 24 hours, I would use 0.06% IDY and probably do all 24 hours in balls. For 48 hours, I'd use 0.025% and do 24 hours in bulk and 24 hours in balls. In both cases, I'd keep the dough around 60F the whole time. You can use this table to help find other starting places: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg355933#msg355933

I do use cold water as you noted. The method described in this thread using a tiny quantity of yeast and extended fermentation at room temperature is not the easiest way to make dough. It will require experimentation and tweaking to get it to come out the way you want it.

If you have never had Neapolitan pizza, you might first find a Neapolitan pizzeria and go try it so that you know what is the target you are trying to replicate. If "Bay area" on your profile means San Francisco, you will have no problem finding a good place to try.

My fave is Una, Tony's place and yes I love Neapolitan + Ny. Let me try first the thread you pointed and will go from there.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 21, 2015, 12:49:17 PM
Since you are using IDY, if it looks like it's progressing too fast, throw it in the fridge. If you think you put in 1g, I'd probably suggest balling it and putting it in the fridge now. Extra time in balls won't be much of a big deal if the time is in the fridge. Just be sure to give the balls a couple hours at room temp before you bake them.

Here is what came out... let me know what you think!
The bottoms were not burnt at all, soI'm very happy with that..
The dough is still a little too soft, and not crunchy.
I don't know why I cant get any leoparding on it...any ideas?
I am using Blackstone oven btw.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2015, 01:46:54 PM
Here is what came out... let me know what you think!
The bottoms were not burnt at all, soI'm very happy with that..
The dough is still a little too soft, and not crunchy.
I don't know why I cant get any leoparding on it...any ideas?
I am using Blackstone oven btw.

I think they look pretty good for a first effort. The crumb should be very soft and tender with no crunch in the crust. I like just the most paper thin of an outer shell on the cornicione, but certainly nothing that would be called crunchy.

I see signs of leoparding. How long did you ferment? Post some pictures of your risen dough next time and we can give more thoughts. If you can ferment a ball in a clear plastic tub and get a picture of the underside, that would be helpful. I think you will get there with time and experimentation. Learning to make great pizza takes a lot of work.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MicheleR on May 21, 2015, 02:30:45 PM
I think they look pretty good for a first effort. The crumb should be very soft and tender with no crunch in the crust. I like just the most paper thin of an outer shell on the cornicione, but certainly nothing that would be called crunchy.

I see signs of leoparding. How long did you ferment? Post some pictures of your risen dough next time and we can give more thoughts. If you can ferment a ball in a clear plastic tub and get a picture of the underside, that would be helpful. I think you will get there with time and experimentation. Learning to make great pizza takes a lot of work.

Thank you.
I fermented in bulk for around 22 hours, I left in the fridge balled for around 20 hours and left it out for 1-2 hours with the top of the tub open.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2015, 03:18:46 PM
Fermenting in the fridge slows everything down - not just the yeast. I think if you push it out to 48 hours, you will see more leoparding. Likewise, 24 hours up in the 60's should help with leoparding.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: NestorP on June 30, 2015, 01:37:30 AM
"Did this help"....

YES!  This all helped immensely.

Thanks again

Rene, I donít include the water and flour in the culture in the hydration calculation. I keep my culture at about 80% hydration, but I do this by eye. I donít measure when I feed it. As such , it kicks up the formula hydration by a little less than 1%.  This works well because I use such a low and narrow range of starter % (1.1-1.5%). If I was using a lot of starter or changing from small to large % and vice versa, I would need to include the starter in the formula calculation.

5.5g culture is correct in your example above. Did you completely dissolve the culture into the water? I donít like to rely on the mixing process to evenly distribute the culture with such small quantities.

I see very little rise in the first 24 hours. This is what I want. I just want to see the beginnings of activity when I ball the dough. In the last 12 hours, Iíll watch the dough to make sure it is progressing as expected. It can be gently warmed or cooled if necessary.

Here is the spreadsheet I use to calculate my quantities: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AuvMQbzk5INUdE1mVkMyOEY2My1sc1phRTJBSmo5TVE#gid=0

Here is how I make my dough if you have not seen it:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20477.msg202047.html#msg202047

Here is the whole process: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.msg202069.html#msg202069

Did this help?

CL
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: David Esq. on July 17, 2015, 08:00:29 AM
Perhaps this has been discussed before.  But, the Wizards at VPN state that the proper temperature of the cooking surface is 905 degrees and the dome 800. Craig, do you ever manage to bake a decent pie with the floor hotter than the ceiling?  Sure, maybe it's a typo. But given the need to use a spatula with beech or acacia wood handles, I think they were pretty careful when putting those rules together.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: parallei on July 17, 2015, 08:12:20 AM
Perhaps this has been discussed before. Yep But, the Wizards at VPN state that the proper temperature of the cooking surface is 905 degrees and the dome 800. Craig, do you ever manage to bake a decent pie with the floor hotter than the ceiling?  Sure, maybe it's a typo. Yep But given the need to use a spatula with beech or acacia wood handles, I think they were pretty careful when putting those rules together.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: David Esq. on July 17, 2015, 08:56:06 AM
Well great. Now do I trust the beech acacia thing or can I use a different kind of handle?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 17, 2015, 10:23:21 PM
Well great. Now do I trust the beech acacia thing or can I use a different kind of handle?

You will be OK. Sooner or later the vendor will grease the VPN and your peel will be duly blessed.  :-D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: David Esq. on July 18, 2015, 07:15:37 AM
Whew!  But just to be clear. It's the spatula to get the dough off the tray that I am talking about. Everybody is in on the equipment game.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sub on July 18, 2015, 12:10:46 PM
You will be OK. Sooner or later the vendor will grease the VPN and your peel will be duly blessed.  :-D

 :-D   So true !

Whew!  But just to be clear. It's the spatula to get the dough off the tray that I am talking about. Everybody is in on the equipment game.


David, I've started a thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38869.msg388928#msg388928) just for you.   :P
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mmille24 on December 09, 2015, 11:57:56 AM
When you take a ball out to cook. How much flour do you put down to stretch it out?

I think maybe I'm not putting down enough, as after I stretch there are some sticky spots on the dough. That will then stick to the peel as I launch.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 09, 2015, 12:09:47 PM
When using a plastic dough tray or bags, I typically drop the ball into a pile of flour and then use as little additional bench flour as possible when opening. I lightly dust the peel before sliding the pizza onto the peel or sliding the peel under the pizza. When I use wood dough boxes, which is pretty much all the time now, I don't put the ball into a pile of flour, and I use very little bench flour. I still sprinkle a bit on the peel however.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mmille24 on December 09, 2015, 12:40:09 PM
When using a plastic dough tray or bags, I typically drop the ball into a pile of flour and then use as little additional bench flour as possible when opening. I lightly dust the peel before sliding the pizza onto the peel or sliding the peel under the pizza. When I use wood dough boxes, which is pretty much all the time now, I don't put the ball into a pile of flour, and I use very little bench flour. I still sprinkle a bit on the peel however.

Thanks. I'm not caught up on the wooden box experience. Why would that require so much less flour? Is the dough a lot less sticky coming out of the wooden boxes for some reason?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 09, 2015, 01:01:03 PM
Thanks. I'm not caught up on the wooden box experience. Why would that require so much less flour? Is the dough a lot less sticky coming out of the wooden boxes for some reason?

Yes, the wood absorbs moisture from the bottom of the dough making the bottom a bit dryer than the rest of the ball.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Dippenwood on February 15, 2016, 08:54:34 PM
So is it the case that caputo flour won't perform well at temps below wood fired oven levels? I'm just not getting much oven spring at all from my bbq setup (550 max). I switched to 80/20 bread flour to Caputo pizza flour and I finally got some nice bubbling of the crust. Can others confirm?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 15, 2016, 10:15:15 PM
So is it the case that caputo flour won't perform well at temps below wood fired oven levels? I'm just not getting much oven spring at all from my bbq setup (550 max). I switched to 80/20 bread flour to Caputo pizza flour and I finally got some nice bubbling of the crust. Can others confirm?

Usually when we talk about caputo not performing at lower temps, it's strictly a browning issue. I don't know why it would affect the oven spring - not directly anyway. I suspect there is something else going on with your pizza.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Don Luigi on February 16, 2016, 06:56:24 AM

So is it the case that caputo flour won't perform well at temps below wood fired oven levels? I'm just not getting much oven spring at all from my bbq setup (550 max). I switched to 80/20 bread flour to Caputo pizza flour and I finally got some nice bubbling of the crust. Can others confirm?
No oven spring sounds like a ferment issue rather than a problem with the flour.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Dippenwood on February 18, 2016, 12:17:39 AM
Thanks, guys. My culture wasn't very active when I used it for the caputo only run, and the dough bulk fermented on a floor by an old house leaky outside French door, (cold) so I'm guessing ferment was a big part of it. I had a great active starter working for the 80/20 run, and the dough got much more room temp time. The Caputo dough was very extensible when I opened it, though... Not tough at all while the bread flour run resisted opening. Anyway, I'm getting tired of serving soft cracker pizzas, as good as they may nevertheless be. Perhaps my pizza stone needs to be hotter too. What a hobby.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: KeithGrima on February 26, 2016, 04:57:01 AM
Hi Guys,

I was lead to this forum from another forum I form part of. It was clear that this was the place to be if you seek pizza knowledge !!! I have been reading this post and following its thread for the past week and I amazed by the level of details.

I am a beginner when it comes to pizza making and aspire to improve. I have started my own sourdough(100% hydration) to attempt the recipe linked in this thread.

What I am unsure of is how much sourdough do I add to the original recipe? if it calls for 1% yeast. I have started building my sourdough using 1:1 water to flour.

I will be following the 48 hour fermentation process for my pizza dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 26, 2016, 07:12:37 AM
All the ingredients are expressed an a % of the flour weight. i.e. if you had 1000g flour, 1% would be 10g culture. Lately, I've been using 1.9%.

This table can help you determine how much to use based on your fermentation time and temperature:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 Since the activity of a culture can vary quite a bit, you will likely need to do a few rounds of tweaking to get things how you want them.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: KeithGrima on February 26, 2016, 07:19:45 AM
All the ingredients are expressed an a % of the flour weight. i.e. if you had 1000g flour, 1% would be 10g culture. Lately, I've been using 1.9%.

This table can help you determine how much to use based on your fermentation time and temperature:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0 Since the activity of a culture can vary quite a bit, you will likely need to do a few rounds of tweaking to get things how you want them.

Hi Craig, first of all excellent thread, never have I seen so much detail.

I have analyzed and read most of the thread where I am from winters are @ 65F so that is perfect. So to clarify(I am still trying to grasp certain concepts)

If my culture is 1:1 flour to water (ex total 500g) and I am making the below recipe(measurements are just an example to simplify)

100% flour = 1kg
2% yeast = 20g
60% water = 600
3% salt = 30g

This is where I am getting confused, should I add 20g of my sourdough starter which if broken down is 10g flour + 10g water(if following the 100% hydration)?


Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 26, 2016, 08:43:20 AM
I do it just like you calculated. I don't worry about the flour and water in the starter when it's just a couple %. It's not going to change anything meaningfully.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: KeithGrima on February 26, 2016, 08:49:06 AM
I do it just like you calculated. I don't worry about the flour and water in the starter when it's just a couple %. It's not going to change anything meaningfully.

Excellent !!! Thanks Craig will let you guys know how it turns out.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jaykay123 on March 08, 2016, 03:43:30 AM
After stretching the dough I top pizzas on a little bed of flour and semolina (the coarse granules not the powder) and you can fling pizzas into the oven like a pro. It virtually eliminates sticking pizzas and unintended calzones!

I run a mobile wfp catering company which makes authentic neopolitan pizzas with Caputo oo flour. Occasionally I make a pizza at home in a normal domestic 200 degree oven using left over dough balls. The results are naturally very, very different. There is much less spring and puffyness in the crust, no leoparding and it is a very chewy pizza. However, taken on its own merits, and not compared to the wfo version, they have a certain charm of their own and are still quite good in a not very conniseury (is that a word!?) or textbook neopolitan way.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jaykay123 on March 08, 2016, 04:56:12 AM
I've added a couple of pictures. One was a Caputo 00 pizza made at home and the other was one a customer from Saturday posted on my Facebook page. Both would have used about the same recipe and have a 62% hydration.

Also I noticed a question about minimum salt levels. I don't like very much salt in food - My impression is that food in America generally has a higher sodium and sugar content than in the uk - and I used to use 1.6% salt in my dough. The pizzas still tasted excellent in my view but they were quite a pale colour. I've increased it to 2.2% which is the max I'll go (having tried higher), it gives it a nicer brown and caramelised colour, but tastes noticeably saltier, although not overly salty. The third picture shows a 1.6% salt pizza for comparison.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Mtlpizza456 on July 11, 2016, 12:42:23 PM
Hello,

I'm going to start on my (neo) NP journey soon, and I had a few technical questions.

(1) When flouring surfaces (counter, peel, scale, etc.) is it necessary to use the same flour as the one for the dough? I plan to make dough with Caputo 00 Pizzeria, I would flour surfaces with regular AP; is that problematic, or do I need to flour surfaces with the Caputo also?

(2) How big in size volume should individual tubs for the secondary ferment be? (Ideally)

(3) Are there any examples of the knuckles technique used by Craig in video? YouTube is littered with the slap/stretch method.

Many thanks!

Phil
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 11, 2016, 01:00:04 PM
Phil,

In the order you asked.

1) No, there is no reason you need to use Caputo on the bench. AP is fine. That's what I do.
2) This is somewhat a matter of personal preference. I don't think I'd use one bigger than 6" across the bottom for a Neapolitan-sized ball. That being said, I don't use tubs any more. I either use wood dough boxes or twist-tie plastic bags with a quick spray of oil. Bags beat tubs hands down, IMO.
3) I don't use my knuckles for Neapolitan dough any more. It's too easy to get my dough too thin. I only use the "slap" technique now. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Mtlpizza456 on July 11, 2016, 01:08:30 PM
Many thanks for your answer, you are a true gentleman.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: brYanC on August 28, 2016, 01:07:29 AM
Hi All,

I am brand new to the forum and pizza making. I recently purchased a Pizza Party oven. I have made a few pizzas in my home oven using recipes by Peter Reinhardt and one I found on ChefSteps by Joe Hefferman. My 1st attempt in the Pizza Party oven was a disaster. I think I had the oven too hot. Pizza burnt in 30 seconds! :-[ Today I tried the Craig's recipe with better results however the issue I am having with all of the recipes I've made is that the dough seems to slack. When I tried to stretch the dough it practically stretched itself. I use the slap and stretch method but found it difficult because the dough had no resistance. I can't figure out if it's a hydration or fermentation issue. Any tips on troubleshooting would be greatly appreciated.

Bryan
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 28, 2016, 01:13:54 PM
Hi All,

I am brand new to the forum and pizza making. I recently purchased a Pizza Party oven. I have made a few pizzas in my home oven using recipes by Peter Reinhardt and one I found on ChefSteps by Joe Hefferman. My 1st attempt in the Pizza Party oven was a disaster. I think I had the oven too hot. Pizza burnt in 30 seconds! :-[ Today I tried the Craig's recipe with better results however the issue I am having with all of the recipes I've made is that the dough seems to slack. When I tried to stretch the dough it practically stretched itself. I use the slap and stretch method but found it difficult because the dough had no resistance. I can't figure out if it's a hydration or fermentation issue. Any tips on troubleshooting would be greatly appreciated.

Bryan

How long was the dough in balls? If 24 hours+, try 12 hours in balls with the rest in bulk. If it's still too slack, work down the time in  balls a couple hours at a time until you find what works for you.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 28, 2016, 01:57:07 PM
Iv'e been asked a couple times recently how I feed my starter, so I'll post the answer here:

Nowadays, I usually feed it about 6 hours before I use it. I keep about a pint. To feed, I add about a pint of water (50:50 starter:water) then discard half and add enough flour to make it a thick batter consistency. It would just barely pour.

It's less important precisely how you feed your culture than it is that you do it the same way every time. This will help you achieve consistent, predictable results.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: brYanC on August 28, 2016, 09:46:14 PM
How long was the dough in balls? If 24 hours+, try 12 hours in balls with the rest in bulk. If it's still too slack, work down the time in  balls a couple hours at a time until you find what works for you.
Thank you. I did a bulk ferment for 24 hours @ approx 65 degrees and then balled the dough and fermented for approximately 8-9 hours. The balls were around 250 grams and were put in plastic containers. The balls were pretty flat when I took them out and definitely had some bubbles on the surface and the bottom. Next time I will try to ball later and see what happens. Thanks again.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: KeithGrima on September 07, 2016, 01:18:47 AM
Can anyone please share how they start(from scratch) and maintain their sourdough please.

Some Questions:

1) Should sourdough ratio always be 1:1:1 (when starting) or is this only for feeding
2) Should the flour for sourdough match the one used to make pizza dough
3) What Flour do you suggest for sourdough
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 07, 2016, 09:05:27 AM
My answers below in Blue

Can anyone please share how they start(from scratch) and maintain their sourdough please.

There are probably 1000's of ways to start a starter from scratch and I doubt there is any one that is a whole lot better than the others. Here are a couple you might try:

http://ruhlman.com/2009/07/simple-sourdough-starter/
http://www.food.com/recipe/nancy-silverton-s-grape-sourdough-starter-316306

Some Questions:

1) Should sourdough ratio always be 1:1:1 (when starting) or is this only for feeding

When feeding, it matters a lot less how you do it and a lot more that you do it the same way every time. That is the key to consistent, predictable results.

2) Should the flour for sourdough match the one used to make pizza dough

Not necessarily. I don't.

3) What Flour do you suggest for sourdough

One that you have readily available.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: KeithGrima on September 09, 2016, 03:36:13 AM
Hey thanks or the reply. Basically I had a starter going this week but activity stopped suddenly(was extremely bubbly on day 3). I realized that probably I was under feeding it. As I was not feeding equal amounts, was only discarding 100g every feed. I will be starting a new one today and will keep the ratio 1:1:1. Will let you know.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Ovenray on September 09, 2016, 08:29:33 PM
After going through the things you documented I reminded myself of a small coolingbox and some freezepacks I never use anymore. Its a 13 liters Campinggaz box and the freezepacks are the M10-DUO type. I've set it up in the same way you did though because its very small in comparison I doubted if it would work but after a few days I can confirm it actually does. I have used a container fit for two doughballs (270 grams each), filled it up with water, put one frozen freezepack next to it and stuck a thermometer in the container. The outside temperature is about 25C (77F) over here currently (no airconditioning) but the small freezepack keeps the water in the container at a constant 18C (64F). I have replaced the freezepack every 12 hours (cycle) and the drop in temperature is only about 1C after each cycle.

I have never done a long ('semicold') ferment with a culture, but I'm ready to give it a shot to see what all the noise is about. Gonna be two firsts as till now I only did yeast-crust-pizza's, and used RT short fermented sourdough for bread, while now I will apply the coolingbox(method) to try my first ever long fermented sourdough pizza-crust. Took me about 30 years, and this forum, to give sourdoughcrust a go but perhaps its not too late for me yet  :D


Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2016, 09:03:34 PM
I have never done a long ('semicold') ferment with a culture

I wouldn't call it "semicold." It's either "cold" or it isn't. There is a reason why refrigerators are <5C/40F, and it's not because microbes grow well there.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Ovenray on September 09, 2016, 09:32:54 PM
I wouldn't call it "semicold." It's either "cold" or it isn't. There is a reason why refrigerators are <5C/40F, and it's not because microbes grow well there.

With all due respect Craig but that is just the obvious isnt it. In a relative sense it is neither cold nor warm taken into account the fridge (cold) and the outside temperature (warm) so I called it like that in the absence of a better word (hence the apostrophs).
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Neopolitan on September 11, 2016, 01:47:18 PM
luke-cold? :angel:
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: IIFYMpizza on October 17, 2016, 04:08:53 AM
Hi Craig,

2 days ago i started a culture using one of the methods that you linked (using grapes), which i have to thank you for, it was very helpful. I used rye flour as the instruction stated its easier to start with this type of flour. After 24h in the kitchen it started to double in size and by the night it filled the whole jar (see pictures attached). It started to smell fruity and lightly sour. I also tested if its going to float on the water and it did. What do you think i should do now? The instruction says it should be left for 6 days before you do anything with it, than you feed it twice and after that it can be used. Do you think i need to ferment it uninterupted for 4 more days if it already seems alive or would you remove the fruits and give it a couple feedings and than use it?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 17, 2016, 09:42:56 AM
Hi Craig,

2 days ago i started a culture using one of the methods that you linked (using grapes), which i have to thank you for, it was very helpful. I used rye flour as the instruction stated its easier to start with this type of flour. After 24h in the kitchen it started to double in size and by the night it filled the whole jar (see pictures attached). It started to smell fruity and lightly sour. I also tested if its going to float on the water and it did. What do you think i should do now? The instruction says it should be left for 6 days before you do anything with it, than you feed it twice and after that it can be used. Do you think i need to ferment it uninterupted for 4 more days if it already seems alive or would you remove the fruits and give it a couple feedings and than use it?

It looks like it is very lively and sounds like it smells good. My guess is that it's ready to us, however you might divide it in half. First half, leave for 6 days as directed. Second half, mix with an equal volume of water and a weight of flour equal to the water you added - it should be a thick-batter-like consistency. If it doubles in a couple hours, it should be good to go. Maybe one more feeding like that and then test it out in a dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: la_marziana on February 21, 2017, 03:21:13 PM
this thread is so incredibly helpful. i cannot express how thankful i am that you are teaching us. your pies are THE benchmark. 😲👍 🔥🍕
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 21, 2017, 03:36:06 PM
Cheers!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SalmonCR on March 24, 2017, 12:33:25 PM
Awesome Work.. great information, thanks for sharing.  I definitely will give it a try to your recipe.
Pura vida!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MichaelS on May 03, 2017, 11:53:00 AM
Hi Craig,

I always used CF to make my dough, but the way you do it interests me very much.

So I decided to give it a try. I made my dough yesterday according to your percentages and it is fermenting in the kitchen right now.

What makes me wondering is I noticed there appeared brown spots on my dough. I used Caputo 00, so it didn't come frome the flour I use. It's something I've seen in my Dough when it ferments for more than 2 day, I always wondered what it is. Is that just normal, or should I trash the dough?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 03, 2017, 01:41:07 PM
I think it's fine. I see it all the time. I've never heard an explanation of what causes it that I thought was convincing.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pizzaposer on May 20, 2017, 02:35:20 PM
Craig,

I've been away from the forum for a while but I remember that you had a thread where you were experimenting on less work-intensive doughs and processes.  I've searched for quite a while on the site and can't seem to find it.  Would you mind posting a link if you get a chance? Life has gotten much busier and I would love to get away from a 48 hour dough.  Much appreciated.  :D
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: JAG on May 20, 2017, 08:09:47 PM
MichaelS,

This article may help with your question regarding spots in you dough.

http://www.pmq.com/May-2017/What-causes-speckled-pizza-doughand-how-to-solve-the-problem/
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2017, 09:41:23 PM
Craig,

I've been away from the forum for a while but I remember that you had a thread where you were experimenting on less work-intensive doughs and processes.  I've searched for quite a while on the site and can't seem to find it.  Would you mind posting a link if you get a chance? Life has gotten much busier and I would love to get away from a 48 hour dough.  Much appreciated.  :D

Really, you can just adjust the yeast or culture with the tables back to 24 hours and you're good to go. If you are making NY as opposed to NP, add 1% diastatic malt powder.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pizzaposer on May 21, 2017, 11:12:05 PM
Thanks, much appreciated.  When you said "diasatatic malt powder" did you mean LDMP or has the general consensus changed in that DMP is acceptable? (I've got some DMP from Penn Mac that is sitting in my cupboard because I'm afraid to use it.)
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 21, 2017, 11:21:04 PM
Thanks, much appreciated.  When you said "diasatatic malt powder" did you mean LDMP or has the general consensus changed in that DMP is acceptable? (I've got some DMP from Penn Mac that is sitting in my cupboard because I'm afraid to use it.)

Yes, I did mean LDMP. Any DMP should be fine presuming you know the lintner value - if it's more than 20, just adjust how much you proportionally. For example, if it's 40, you'd use half as much.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bradtri on June 24, 2017, 09:49:55 AM
Hey Craig - I've been settling into the following dough/workflow:

GM Neapolitan 00 flour
65% water
4% Ischia
2.7% salt
2% oil

48 hour ferment at 61F.   38 hour bulk and 10 hours in balls.  My bulk size is about 5 kg in a Cambro container.

I chilled my water this last time so that my dough was starting out < 70F

At the 38 hour mark when I go to make balls, my bulk ferment is usually doubled in size.

Do you think this is normal?  Or is it too far along?

I'm wondering if I need to further chill my water so that the bulk dough starts out almost at 61F.

Pizzas have been really good, with the occasional problem of doughiness showing up on a pizza that is otherwise quite well-colored on the outside.  Not sure if that's being caused by a dough issue or by not getting the skin stretched out completely.

Below pics are at 38 hours.  It started out just above the 5L mark.

Just had a wedding party with 50 pizzas get called off for tonight .... I guess everybody's invited to my house for pizza tonight!!! 


 :-\
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2017, 10:06:30 AM
That's 2X the culture I use (in the summer, I use 1.9%, and in the winter I use 2.1%). Nowadays, I pretty much always ball 10-12 hours before service. I want to see just a small amount of rise - lots of tiny little bubbles but no real rise to the dough, maybe 10%. All my rise happens in the last 10+ hours. Using the wood dough trays that insulate a lot better than plastic, I generally go to room temperature with 6 hours to go. In plastic, I leave it in the cooler pretty much the whole time, but keep an eye on it, if it's not looking like its progressing fast enough, you might have to warm it some. Remember, make small corrections early rather than large corrections later. Done right, this dough will give you a service window of 8 hours easy. If you have to make a big correction late in the process, you could easily cut that in half.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: bradtri on June 24, 2017, 10:31:35 AM
That's 2X the culture I use (in the summer, I use 1.9%, and in the winter I use 2.1%). Nowadays, I pretty much always ball 10-12 hours before service. I want to see just a small amount of rise - lots of tiny little bubbles but no real rise to the dough, maybe 10%. All my rise happens in the last 10+ hours. Using the wood dough trays that insulate a lot better than plastic, I generally go to room temperature with 6 hours to go. In plastic, I leave it in the cooler pretty much the whole time, but keep an eye on it, if it's not looking like its progressing fast enough, you might have to warm it some. Remember, make small corrections early rather than large corrections later. Done right, this dough will give you a service window of 8 hours easy. If you have to make a big correction late in the process, you could easily cut that in half.

Thanks.   On the chart 61F and 4% comes to 48 hours.  2% at 61F is 59 hours. 

So, by going to room temp you're basically just doing a dual temperature ferment to "catch" the dough up that would normally take 59 hours?

I put the balls on aluminum sheet pans with plastic covers and they are transported to my gig in insulated carriers.  Is the fast cooling of the metal interfering with the dough balls?

Just trying to figure out if I want to go into these carriers with the balls having been at 6 hours of room temp or if I'd be better off going straight from the cooler at 61F into the insulated carriers.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2017, 11:15:27 AM
Thanks.   On the chart 61F and 4% comes to 48 hours.  2% at 61F is 59 hours. 

So, by going to room temp you're basically just doing a dual temperature ferment to "catch" the dough up that would normally take 59 hours?

Yes, I haven't really thought about it, but that's basically right. 40h @ 61F followed by a slow and steady 8h increase to 75F or so.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 24, 2017, 11:16:33 AM
I've never let the dough rise on aluminum; I can't say if it makes a meaningful difference.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: MichaelS on July 25, 2017, 09:10:51 AM
Thanks for the replies, I was short of time lately, so it took a while for me to answer.
I was very sattisfied how the dough came out, but due to my starter culture and wrong temperatures (and because of that times as well) it had been a litte bit to sour.

learned a lot by doing it different than what I'm used to - so thank you very much, I'm going to do this recipe more often.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Piao Liang on August 12, 2017, 07:14:30 AM
Hi Craig,
I recently found this forum and I have been reading your posts with great interest. I started making pizzas following the Italian instructions. I wanted to make my pizzas with sourdough so I made my own culture following: http://ricette.giallozafferano.it/Lievito-madre.html To make the dough for the pizza, I followed the recipe from: Francesco Cassiano's  https://youtu.be/LXPF8lhWBII  (please don't listen to the horrible music!). For the kneading I used Enzo Coccia's technique: https://youtu.be/8gX_ioZCdzo  During my first tries I found that the pizza was over fermented and at the end I was able to get a fair result with 3 % culture, no yeast, 59% HR and 3 % of salt, fermentation: 2 h bulk, and 10 h in balls at 25į C. Flour: Caputo 00 Pizza Chef. I bake in a wood fired brick pizza oven.

I want to try a longer fermentation to improve the taste and the dough so I tried your recipe, 62 % HR,  3 % salt, 1.3 % culture. I used the dough hook of the KA and for the kneading I used Enzo Coccia's technique. I used Caputo 00 Pizza Chef.

Since the dough is very different to what I am used to, I have a few questions. I found disconcerting that the dough was more hydrated than what I am used to. It was more elastic and I liked that. For the kneading part, I used Enzo Coccia's technique. However, when I tried to follow the stretch and fold method I found that it did not stretch at all like in the video: https://youtu.be/sOjSp5_YiF0   His dough seems to be more hydrated than mine. In the end, my dough was smooth enough but not as much as in your photos. When you stretch and fold, do you put flour on the counter? I wonder if it is too much to ask you for a video of this process, but it would be so helpful. I am also confused since in several Neapolitan sites they say that you should not stretch the dough. So I did 24 h bulk and 24 h in the balls in plastic Tupperwares. I haven't prepared my pizzas yet so I don't know about the end result.

I read that you now prefer 60 % HR, 36 h bulk and 10 h ball fermentation and you no longer use plastic containers but plastic bags. Would you be so kind as to share a picture of the dough in the plastic bags? Also, could you share a picture of your wooden tray?

I know that I am asking a lot but it would be so helpful. You are already very gracious and generous sharing all your secrets, and I don't want to abuse your patience!

Thank you very much for this wonderful post!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2017, 09:23:09 AM
My neapolitan nowadays is typically 62.5%HR unmalted AP or bread flour, 2.8% salt, and 1.9%-2.1% culture. If I ferment in plastic bags, I do 24+24. If I use the wood boxes, I do 36+12. Here is a picture of the boxes: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.msg384573#msg384573 and https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14249.2300. I don't know that I've ever taken a picture of the dough in bags.

I always use the wood boxes if I'm running my big oven. I typically use the bags if I'm baking the dough someplace else. I think wood boxes make a superior product, but you can pack a lot more dough balls into the same space with plastic bags. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Piao Liang on August 12, 2017, 12:05:58 PM
Thank you very much Craig for your answer. Your wooden boxes look cool.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: [email protected] on August 14, 2017, 07:33:49 PM
Craig,

I am in the process of making poplar boxes and also do a 24 hour ball with plastic.  Why do you do a shorter time in balls (12 hours) with the wood boxes?   Is it due to wood absorbing more moisture?   

Thanks.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 14, 2017, 09:02:17 PM
Yes, in the pine, the bottoms get too dry for 24. In poplar, it may be different.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TonyGun on August 17, 2017, 04:20:28 PM
Do you think this flour is suitable?

http://www.comarsa.ch/files/schede/904350.pdf
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 17, 2017, 05:10:20 PM
Yes, I think so. Protein, falling number and W all look good.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: JuanFordarode on September 18, 2017, 12:05:55 AM

My very first homemade pizzas, ever!!! Following Craig's specs from early in this thread. Very happy with first turnout!  Love your dough Craig. Thanks!! By the way, every time I type your name here I pronounce it in my head like Smokey says it in the movie Friday.... Craaaaiiig :)

Using a Roccbox.

1. Cheese pizza(for kids) - dry whole milk mozz and parm reg.
2. Margherita - Craig's sauce, fresh mozzarella, basil, and evoo
3. Split pizza - egg center, left half: dry whole milk mozzarella, pad krapow gai, basil, right half: Craig's sauce, fresh mozzarella, Craig's spicy fennel sausage.
4. ~Craig's mushroom: fresh mozzarella, mushrooms, white truffle oil
 
And a little red during the process. For medicinal purposes only

Wishing you well in your recovery from Harvey.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jackitup on September 18, 2017, 12:50:08 AM
Great start on your virgin run!!!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 18, 2017, 08:36:31 AM
Pizza is looking good. On the mushroom pie, try using 3X as many mushrooms. It looks like a crazy amount before you bake but cooks up perfect.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: JuanFordarode on September 18, 2017, 01:16:38 PM
Thanks Jon and Craig.   
After pulling the mushroom pizza out of the oven I was a little surprised with how sparse the mushrooms were.  Will increase the amount next round.  The truffle oil made the mushroom pizza my favorite. Great recipe! 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: rdbedwards on September 20, 2017, 07:01:26 PM
First off, apologies for posting this question here, but I couldn't find the thread where Craig talks about switching from plastic containers for dough balls to food bags, even after multiple searches.  So, my question: how do you remove the dough from the bag when it's ready to bake?  I tried it once but the ball totally loses its shape.  I have problems with it sticking to the containers, but at least it usually holds its shape when it falls out.  Sometimes an edge overlaps and ruins that part of the crust, but with bags I don't understand how to handle them.  Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsaras on September 20, 2017, 07:17:02 PM
Olive oil is your friend. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pete-zza on September 20, 2017, 07:27:42 PM
First off, apologies for posting this question here, but I couldn't find the thread where Craig talks about switching from plastic containers for dough balls to food bags, even after multiple searches.  So, my question: how do you remove the dough from the bag when it's ready to bake?  I tried it once but the ball totally loses its shape.  I have problems with it sticking to the containers, but at least it usually holds its shape when it falls out.  Sometimes an edge overlaps and ruins that part of the crust, but with bags I don't understand how to handle them.  Thanks!
rdbedwards,

See Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46391.msg465531#msg465531, along with other posts in the same thread.

Peter
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 20, 2017, 08:01:34 PM
I give the baz a quick spray of spray oil and have never had a sticking issue.

I usually cut the bag from the top down to the ball and gently roll it out into a pile of flour. If it s bit out of round, that's easily fixed in the initial opening of the dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: rdbedwards on September 21, 2017, 01:57:41 PM
Thanks Craig, I hadn't thought of cutting the bag.  I'll give it another go.  I'm slowly working through the pages of your process sticky, do you cover how you started your sourdough and how you maintain it?  Was it the Ischia culture from sourdo.com?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 21, 2017, 02:11:47 PM
It was the Ischia originally, but I don't think there is any Ischia left in it. It stayed the same for years then it was like someone flipped a switch. It changed - particularly in the smell of the raw culture - much more acidic. Interestingly, the finished product isn't much different, and I wouldn't necessarily say it better or worse. It hasn't changed since.

If I'm using it regularly, I feed it every day or every other day by adding water until the volume is about double, discarding a bit more than half, and feeding with enough flour to make it thick batter-like consistency. If I'm not using it regularly, I keep it in the fridge. I've gone several months without feeding with no ill effect. Ironically, the one time it changed, I was feeding it daily, so it wasn't a matter of me letting it get weak.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on October 23, 2017, 11:13:15 AM
Craig - what's the current process you are using?  24 hr bulk in the cooler followed by balled then X hrs in the cooler (or room temp)?  thanks
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 23, 2017, 11:35:45 AM
36 hours in bulk and 12 in balls (wood dough trays) - all at 60-65F.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: pacdunes on October 23, 2017, 12:00:11 PM
How are you keeping the temp at 60 deg in the wood proofing box?  thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 23, 2017, 12:45:32 PM
How are you keeping the temp at 60 deg in the wood proofing box?  thanks!

The wood boxes fit into a larger cooler. I put in a frozen bottle of water, and it holds it in that range.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 23, 2017, 07:29:19 PM
36 hours in bulk and 12 in balls (wood dough trays) - all at 60-65F.

Craig-

Typically how much dough weight would you say is in your typical 36 hour bulk? In other words how many doughs and dough ball weight are in one bulk batch? And have you gotten different results with different sized dough mass?

Thanks,
Jon
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 23, 2017, 08:56:31 PM
Craig-

Typically how much dough weight would you say is in your typical 36 hour bulk? In other words how many doughs and dough ball weight are in one bulk batch? And have you gotten different results with different sized dough mass?

Thanks,
Jon

My typical batch is 18-24 balls at 275g each, so in the ~5-7kg range. The smallest batch I ever make is 12 ~3.3kg. There is no meaningful difference in the bulk between these. I'd also add that sometimes I put the bulk in a plastic box and sometimes I just leave in the ceramic bowl I mix the dough in and that doesn't seem to make a meaningful difference either.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 23, 2017, 09:55:57 PM
My typical batch is 18-24 balls at 275g each, so in the ~5-7kg range. The smallest batch I ever make is 12 ~3.3kg. There is no meaningful difference in the bulk between these. I'd also add that sometimes I put the bulk in a plastic box and sometimes I just leave in the ceramic bowl I mix the dough in and that doesn't seem to make a meaningful difference either.
Thanks. Interesting stuff. The last batch of dough I made had a bulk step. I think it is something I'm going to experiment with.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 24, 2017, 12:00:16 AM
For me, it's just a tool to extend RT fermentation without getting overly extensible dough.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 24, 2017, 07:42:32 AM
I normally ferment 48-72 hours in the fridge - this wasn't a neopolitan dough. The bulk of about 4.5 kg of dough was to try and get to the same place in less time. I think it worked for the most part. I still have much to learn...
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Passtheoregano on October 29, 2017, 11:55:52 PM
what's the Accunto like to cook in?  I have some experience cooking in a pre-fab Ferrara, and its marvelous....except the thermal efficiency can be a bummer sometimes. the mass on the bottom of your's looks like quite a bit more.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on October 30, 2017, 08:23:17 AM
what's the Accunto like to cook in?  I have some experience cooking in a pre-fab Ferrara, and its marvelous....except the thermal efficiency can be a bummer sometimes. the mass on the bottom of your's looks like quite a bit more.

I don't know how to describe it. I love the oven. Yes there is a lot more mass under the deck as compared to a mobile SF.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Icelandr on January 16, 2018, 08:53:15 PM
OK an odd request. Perhaps either my memory or search skills are flagging, but I recall a discussion of bread sticks made from pizza dough and fired in the WFO with Parmesan?  I have my grand sons coming next week and would like to try it with them. A long way from Neapolitan, but my ability to read Italian and gain some insight from Sauzer.it post is a bit sketchy . . .


Thanks Craig and Happy New Year
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 16, 2018, 08:58:26 PM
OK an odd request. Perhaps either my memory or search skills are flagging, but I recall a discussion of bread sticks made from pizza dough and fired in the WFO with Parmesan?  I have my grand sons coming next week and would like to try it with them. A long way from Neapolitan, but my ability to read Italian and gain some insight from Sauzer.it post is a bit sketchy . . .


Thanks Craig and Happy New Year

I don't remember the specific discussion, but when I've made them, I've done it like this (without the screen) with some olive oil, parm, and oregano on top pre bake and bowls of garlic butter and pizza sauce served on the side.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14506.msg288495#msg288495
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Icelandr on January 16, 2018, 09:33:34 PM
Thank you Craig, that is the post I was trying to find, my search of ďbread sticksĒ did not find it, thanks for your time
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: PizzaForno on February 11, 2018, 02:01:16 PM
Hi Craig, Can you tell me if your salt and starter percentages by water or flour weight...? Ta
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 11, 2018, 02:08:53 PM
Hi Craig, Can you tell me if your salt and starter percentages by water or flour weight...? Ta

Both are % flour.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: PizzaForno on February 12, 2018, 03:16:09 PM
Thanks for the reply Craig....Such a great thread.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on March 10, 2018, 08:24:46 AM
Here is the entire process I currently use to make my pies at The Garage
Making and baking the pie:
When I open my dough balls, I am very gentle - no slapping or beating it - and, I always protect the cornice. The top of the dough ball becomes the top of the pizza skin. My dough is very easy to open.  I usually press it out with the underside of my fingers Ė taking care not to use my fingertips. Using light pressure, I start inside of the cornice by about ĹĒ Ė ĺĒ and work down protecting and forming the cornice all the way around. I flip it once and press again the same way. Then, I stretch it over my knuckles until it is about 12-13Ē. To do this, I place the skin over my knuckles and turn it 360 degrees pulling slightly apart with my hands but mostly using gravity. This takes about 5 seconds. I never slap and stretch or anything like that. ďSlap for show, gentle for great dough.Ē  I top the skin quickly (have everything ready and handy), slide the (lightly floured) peel under and stretch out the dough until it is just a bit over 13Ē.  Be sure itís not hanging over the back edge of your peel at all. Then itís into the oven.
Do you know if there are any videos demonstrating how to handle such a dough? Did you ever make one? I've seen the videos most refer to in here, but they use doughs that are pretty elastic and tougher. By the sound of it, yours are more tender and require different handling.

My last doughs had 24h in bulk and 24h in balls in sealed plastic containers. I followed the fermentation guide and if anything, they were maybe slightly over fermented, but pretty close to predicted 100%. The doughs were super soft and tender, not elastic, it was like touching a cloud and I didn't have to use any effort to open them. This led to the skins having different thickness across the surface, some areas really thin. I managed to avoid tearing it, but was hoping there would be some way to improve my handling.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 10, 2018, 09:04:32 AM
Do you know if there are any videos demonstrating how to handle such a dough?

I like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TonyGun on March 10, 2018, 12:35:54 PM
Someone explains the pros and cons between the two techniques?. Thanks

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InDwfZmSikI
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: J_Dunc on March 19, 2018, 11:36:18 AM
Hey Craig, I don't know if you've answered this before, but I was wondering what type of wood you use for your oven? I'm from West Texas and have always heard that mesquite burns the hottest, but everywhere else I look at online says to use oak. Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 19, 2018, 11:41:46 AM
Hey Craig, I don't know if you've answered this before, but I was wondering what type of wood you use for your oven? I'm from West Texas and have always heard that mesquite burns the hottest, but everywhere else I look at online says to use oak. Thanks!

I use post oak because it's the cheapest and burns plenty hot.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TX2Labs on June 09, 2018, 09:56:59 AM
Hey Craig, just adding to the legions of thanks for all of your efforts and generous help.

I was stubbornly refusing to go the SD route because of the added hassle and was sticking to my ADY guns.  I finally succumbed and baked my first SD yesterday and wow...I can now see the light.  I can only imagine it gets better with more practice, experiments with timing, etc.

What a fun hobby this has turned in to, and made me quite popular with friends and family.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: crawsdaddy on June 09, 2018, 11:29:48 AM
Hey Craig, I don't know if you've answered this before, but I was wondering what type of wood you use for your oven? I'm from West Texas and have always heard that mesquite burns the hottest, but everywhere else I look at online says to use oak. Thanks!

Careful using mesquite, it can be very astringent
 even when BBQing. I would expect the same with pizza
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Rick_F on June 09, 2018, 02:16:26 PM
Careful using mesquite, it can be very astringent
 even when BBQing. I would expect the same with pizza

Mesquite works great, I use it almost exclusively.  No problems with taste since it's totally different than bbq'ing.  When you smoke meats you are infusing the meats with the smoke flavor for hours.  In a wfo there is very little smoke since you are burning hotter, so the particulates are combusted completely.  The pizza cooks quickly, no smoke flavor noticeable unless you are combusting poorly or are using not quite ready wood and then dome it in the smoke.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 09, 2018, 06:17:25 PM
In a wfo there is very little smoke since you are burning hotter, so the particulates are combusted completely.  The pizza cooks quickly, no smoke flavor noticeable unless you are combusting poorly or are using not quite ready wood and then dome it in the smoke.

I used to think that was true. It's not. I've run my wood and gas ovens side by side and done blind tastings. I doubt most people would notice a difference if not tasted side-by-side however.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mrmafix on June 11, 2018, 02:46:36 PM
Craig,

Have you pushed your original recipe to hydrations of 65-70%?  If so, what did you notice in terms of shaping and baking difference?  Would it make a bigger cornicione? 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Rick_F on June 11, 2018, 07:13:26 PM
I used to think that was true. It's not. I've run my wood and gas ovens side by side and done blind tastings. I doubt most people would notice a difference if not tasted side-by-side however.

J_Dunc wanted to know if he could use mesquite, Crawsdaddy was unsure that it may ruin the pizzas with its strong flavors.
The very insignificant trace flavors are not unpleasant.  If the price is right, it is a great fuel source.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: rdbedwards on June 12, 2018, 07:45:48 PM
Craig, I've watched Part 2 of that video showing how you like to open the dough many many times but this time I noticed how loud the crunch is when he slices it.  Does yours sound like that?  Mine certainly doesn't, it's much softer and only very slightly crisp on the outside, but not enough to hear when cutting.  What do you like?  Thoughts of others, too, please!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2018, 06:02:33 PM
No, mine doesn't really have a crunch. You can fold it almost immediately out of the oven. You could never pick it up by the edge and have it hold a flat shape.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sk on August 28, 2018, 01:44:35 PM
Greetings Craig.  SD question.  I used my SD, fed and put it in the fridge for a few days.  I took it out and let it come to room temp.  Around 3 hours it had doubled, it floats and has a slightly tangy taste.  My question is this, do I have to use the starter now, can I wait and if so how long?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 28, 2018, 08:49:47 PM
You don't have to use it now, but you might have to tweak the amount you use if you wait longer as it starts to get weaker. It's not so important how you do it, rather it's important that you do it the same way every time.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: rclarkston on September 12, 2018, 03:28:25 PM
Craig,

I apologize if this was already covered in the thread... After you finish mixing your dough, what do you end up with for a final dough temp? How long does it take for your dough to drop down to your desired bulk rise temp?

In making a small batch of dough, say about 850 grams, using my KA mixer with a spiral hook, I end up with a dough temp of about 75 degrees. This is even when using water at about 35 degrees. By the time I finish mixing, kneading, and any rests during folds, this is where my dough gets to.

I'm using an old chest style freezer with a BrewPI controller to manage the fermenting temp. With the BrewPI controlling temp, I have a temp probe for the fermenting chamber and one for the dough. If I'm aiming for a 65-degree bulk rise, the BrewPI will initially set the fermenter temp at around 45 degrees. It will then slowly raise the temp in the fermenter until both the dough and the chamber are at 65 degrees.

Even with the low initial temp, that 850 grams of dough will take about 2 hours to drop from 75 degrees to 65. I'm a bit concerned that if I was making a large batch, say 30 - 40 dough balls, the amount of time to drop the temp would be long enough to have a significant impact on the timing of the bulk rise.

How do you account to this in your process -- assuming, of course, you do so?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 12, 2018, 06:18:16 PM
I don't worry about any of that, and I've never measured the dough temp. Just tweak it until it works and then do that. Simple.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: SuperTz on November 13, 2018, 10:59:06 AM
My Pizza Party Passione arrived this morning. A WFO has been on my list for years but Iíve always found an excuse to not buy one. Im blown away by the wealth of information that so many have shared. Iím a chef by trade and I know firsthand the efforts and passion needed to make a wonderful product.

A big thanks to Craig and all the contributors on this forum.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: joaohess on November 23, 2018, 12:35:40 PM
I need your opinion. Iím trying to get this right...
Iím using TXCraigís recipe, with 24h + 24h @ 20įC (68F).
The first 24h are gone, and Iíve already balled them about 19h ago. In other words, I have 5h left.
In your opinion, is it overproofing?

Thank you
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 23, 2018, 12:53:36 PM
Maybe a bit overproofed, but still very usable. I'd throw it in the fridge for a couple hours then bring it back out a couple hours before use. It should be fine.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: joaohess on November 23, 2018, 12:57:22 PM
Thank you. I'll do that.

Should I reball them? I've read that it's an option for overproof doughs. Reball them and let them proof again for a couple of hours
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: vtsteve on November 23, 2018, 01:27:48 PM
Should I reball them?

Noooooooo!   :-D

I would only reball if it was 10-12 hours before bake time. Make sure you've got a tool (putty knife) that'll get in there to cut them free; you don't want them to tear and collapse.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 23, 2018, 01:34:35 PM
 ^^^
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: joaohess on November 23, 2018, 11:10:59 PM
Iím just passing by to thank you all (and specially you, TXCraig) for all the learning I had in so little time. Iíve been reading the forum a lot and today I finally achieved the kind of pizza I always wanted to make.
The first picture was taken 2 years ago. That has been the closest Iíve been able to get to a Neapolitan pizza. Now the game has changed. Iím so happy Iím almost crying. I hope I am able to get similar results every time now. Of course I still need to improve. Shaping is not perfect, but itís part of the charm. Thank you very much for all your help.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 24, 2018, 07:17:35 AM
Iím just passing by to thank you all (and specially you, TXCraig) for all the learning I had in so little time. Iíve been reading the forum a lot and today I finally achieved the kind of pizza I always wanted to make.
The first picture was taken 2 years ago. That has been the closest Iíve been able to get to a Neapolitan pizza. Now the game has changed. Iím so happy Iím almost crying. I hope I am able to get similar results every time now. Of course I still need to improve. Shaping is not perfect, but itís part of the charm. Thank you very much for all your help.

There is a lot to like about that Margherita!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Little bean on November 24, 2018, 08:03:31 AM
 ^^^
There is a lot to like about that Margherita!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Squirrelsmith on November 28, 2018, 04:13:16 PM
I had not considered checking the temp of my oven walls, good tip!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: joaohess on December 26, 2018, 11:41:26 AM
Hi! I've been using your recipe for a while now and I really like it.

I just want your opinion in something: I've been using 24h+24h, and after the last 24h, the gluten is very relaxed and opening the dough is really easy, but sometimes I have a problem of the dough ripping when opening it. I've been using the flour 5 Stagioni Napoletana (W300).

What would you recommend me? Should I ball them a few hours later (reduce the time of appretto)? Should I mix with Manitoba? Or it's just how it is and I should be more careful?

I just ask because I basically can't lift the dough to stretch it - It all has to be done on the table with my fingertips, and I've been having a bit of trouble sliding the pizza to the peel.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 26, 2018, 02:59:58 PM
I've moved to 36h+12h for another reason but I do like the way the balls open better with only 12 hours on them.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on December 26, 2018, 03:16:47 PM
If it's too lose at 24+24, try 30+18 next time, or 36+12. Experiment until you find out what works best for you.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: joaohess on December 26, 2018, 07:03:23 PM
I've moved to 36h+12h for another reason but I do like the way the balls open better with only 12 hours on them.

Yeah, Iíve read that you changed it because of the wooden boxes, but itís great to know itís still working out great for you. Iíll try that in my next pizza. Thank you again!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Irishboy on March 06, 2019, 03:52:43 PM
Using light pressure, I start inside of the cornice by about ĹĒ Ė ĺĒ and work down protecting and forming the cornice all the way around. I flip it once and press again the same way. Then, I stretch it over my knuckles until it is about 12-13Ē. To do this, I place the skin over my knuckles and turn it 360 degrees pulling slightly apart with my hands but mostly using gravity. This takes about 5 seconds. I never slap and stretch or anything like that. ďSlap for show, gentle for great dough.Ē  I top the skin quickly (have everything ready and handy), slide the (lightly floured) peel under and stretch out the dough until it is just a bit over 13Ē.  Be sure itís not hanging over the back edge of your peel at all. Then itís into the oven.


Thank you for all the information you always post Craig it is a great help.


I just want to make sure I'm understanding this right so you actually start at the crust and work your way down when pressing with your fingers instead of actually starting in the middle and pressing up like most do? Are you basically starting at the top and pushing all the way down to the bottom to the other end of the crust which is still pushing air into the crust?


And one last question when you're opening the skin over your knuckles are you having your knuckles pointed up towards the sky and kind of tossing the pizza over your knuckles or are you having your knuckles facing forward as if you're in a punching motion and stretching the pizza that way?


Hope my questions make sense
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 06, 2019, 07:37:58 PM
I do it like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Irishboy on March 06, 2019, 07:51:04 PM
I do it like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEVCrqbfRJ4)


Thank you sir


I've tried the slap I just need more practice there were a couple of things I wasn't sure about but in the video I see he looks like he is keeping his pressure hand by the edge towards the crust when he is slightly pulling and lifting with the other hand. Someone told me I was doing it wrong when I did it that way and said I should keep my hand in the middle so the center of the pizza doesn't get too thin so I got confused.


It actually seems like he's not really even tugging in the video.  Thank you I really appreciate you taking the time to answer the questions
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on March 07, 2019, 06:27:38 AM
The state of the dough is very imporant. You can only open a dough like in the video if your dough has similar properties. If it's too taut or relaxed, you may not be able to treat it the same way. Maybe more force is needed or less. I find that a more relaxed dough is easier to work with than one that's too taut and always spring back together.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Irishboy on March 07, 2019, 09:15:23 AM
The state of the dough is very imporant. You can only open a dough like in the video if your dough has similar properties. If it's too taut or relaxed, you may not be able to treat it the same way. Maybe more force is needed or less. I find that a more relaxed dough is easier to work with than one that's too taut and always spring back together.
great point
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jguz on May 03, 2019, 07:12:14 PM
Thanks for sharing the great recipe and techniques!  I tried a 65% hydration yesterday on my unni 3 gas.  It was my first time using the oven so there was a bit of learning curve with it. I think I had the oven on too high because the crust burnt before the pizza cooked all the way thorough.  My temp gun stopped reading after 750 degrees so I was a bit in the dark.

I'm a bit embarrassed to show the picture based on the others here but thought I would share for the tips to improve.  I did a 48hr RT ferment with 00 Anna flour. Besides burning the hell out of the crust, adding too much sauce, pathetic basil topping, and too large of cheese slices...any tips on how to improve?  I mean, that's pretty much everything there  ;D

I'd like to figure out how to get a larger cornicione with more of the yeast activation inside the crust.  I might have put too much evoo in the container after balling the dough.  Can that hinder crust growth? 

Thanks for the help!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ira on May 04, 2019, 12:12:11 AM
I find I have to turn down the gas a bit when I put the pizza in or I have that problem on my UUNI Pro.


Ira
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Jguz on May 04, 2019, 09:28:24 AM
I find I have to turn down the gas a bit when I put the pizza in or I have that problem on my UUNI Pro.


Ira

Thanks!  Do you put the gas about halfway? 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ira on May 04, 2019, 10:05:15 PM
Thanks!  Do you put the gas about halfway?
I moved the control to the front so I turn it do a lot after about 10 seconds and then adjust as seems necessary. I likely turn it down further then necessary at first as I'm still a rank beginner and don't like to serve burnt pizza.


Ira
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on July 07, 2019, 11:29:40 PM
This is an awesome post. So helpful.
I have started experimenting with the ischia starter, but so far my dough balls look more like pancakes !

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Tannerwooden on August 04, 2019, 07:37:57 PM
Sorry about the previous version of this message. I had this post open on my phone to learn as much as I could about Craig's process. Apparently, I pocket-posted. I followed all instructions as closely as I could and am REALLY happy with the results. I especially love how easy it was to open and handle this dough.

I only have one, semi-decent picture of a weird ass pie. I'm always lax on the picture part. I didn't plan for this dough to turn out as great as it did.

I learned very quickly not to salt as much as I have been doing with my old ADY refridgerated dough (even though the salt content is similar). The crust was so flavorful, it didn't need as much salt as I had been using.

Thank you so much for your generosity in helping just one more among so many to up his pizza game, Craig.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: crawsdaddy on August 06, 2019, 10:23:56 AM

Thank you so much for your generosity in helping just one more among so many to up his pizza game, Craig.

 ^^^ ^^^ ^^^
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 06, 2019, 06:41:13 PM
Thank you. Y'all are very welcome.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on August 11, 2019, 12:47:07 PM
What temperatures do you want in the oven for 35-40s pies? I've seen 875F on the stone mentioned, but not sure if that was for bakes that fast.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 11, 2019, 01:38:06 PM
What temperatures do you want in the oven for 35-40s pies? I've seen 875F on the stone mentioned, but not sure if that was for bakes that fast.

It will depend on the oven. For me, 45 seconds in my big oven is about 900F on the deck and 975F on the walls farthest from the fire, and a nice active fire going. In my Passione, it's about 925F on the deck with the gas burner running wide open. In both cases, about 1/3 - 1/2 the bake will be in the dome.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sk on August 12, 2019, 06:30:19 AM
For the first part of the bake when the pie is still on the floor, do you turn?  If it is on the floor for 20 seconds or so, and you do turn, how soon?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2019, 06:39:06 AM
At least once. Maybe twice.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: iLLEb on August 28, 2019, 12:37:21 PM
Craig, my dough is getting good, but i find i want it lighter. What are some suggestions?

Currently im wworking your method with 63% water 1,3% sd 2.7% salt.

Mix for about 10 minutes, need till harden, rest 15 - stretch fold - repeat till texture is good.

48H RT 36H bulk  18C balls. The dough is very good at handling i should say, dont have to do much. however, i find the cornice is not filled with air as i would like it, of which i presume its my stretching which needs to be better. However, I would like to do anything i can to get it as light as i can i just want to eat good tasting air. any suggestions where to start?

My oven is at about 420Celcius, should i go higher, does that make it lighter?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 29, 2019, 07:08:53 AM
Improving your dough handling skills through practice will help, but I think the biggest issue is your temp. 420C is on the cold side in most ovens baking NP. All other things being equal, oven spring and and open crumb are improved by higher temps assuming the deck heat is well balanced with the heat on the top of the pizza. What oven are you using? What is the deck material?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on August 29, 2019, 10:13:14 AM
If the results are what you posted in the link below, I don't see any problem with it. As I've said before, you will get less air with sourdough that commercial yeast. Everything can always be improved upon, but the size of the cornicione on those photos looks good to me for an SD dough.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58691.msg590927#msg590927

There are different aspects that can affect airiness, and handling is a pretty big one. You can have a perfect dough that ends up flat from poor handling.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: iLLEb on August 29, 2019, 02:36:02 PM
Yes, i would say I should probably increase temp. Im using roccbox. the size of the cornicione is fine for me, its just not as airy as i would like it. sometimes its a bit dense even though the height is fine.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: starfish on September 08, 2019, 06:46:42 AM
Hi Craig,

thanks a lot for sharing your recipes and knowledge so generously in this thread! I'm only half way through it, but I'd love to give it a try.

From what I've read getting the right SD starter is crucial because this will have a significant influence on the flavour. I'm a little confused though because I found contradictory information:

At Sourdough International (the only supply source for Italian SD starter I found online) they say: "Italian Sourdough:
They are among the best we have ever used, consistently producing fabulous breads and PIZZAS that are flavorful and can be QUITE SOUR."
https://www.sourdo.com/blog/cheat-sheet-for-sourdough-cultures/ (https://www.sourdo.com/blog/cheat-sheet-for-sourdough-cultures/)

I don't think that a very sour taste is what we want for pizza, and for instance this guy states the opposite, that especially the Ischia SD starter is not sour at all, even a little sweet...
https://www.sourdo.com/blog/cheat-sheet-for-sourdough-cultures/ (https://www.sourdo.com/blog/cheat-sheet-for-sourdough-cultures/)

I'm based in Germany and ordering at Sourdough International is quite expensive (20 $ shipping cost, which is ridiculous), so I want to make sure that it's worth ordering the Italian SD starter there.

Thanks so much!


Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2019, 01:05:10 PM
Why not just start your own? It's probably even odds that you'll like it better than a culture from sourdo.com. I started with the Ischia culture from sourdo, and it's good. After a few years, I let it get really weak one time and something local took it over. I like the new culture so much more, I ultimately threw away the back-up Ischia I kept in the fridge.

http://ruhlman.com/2009/07/simple-sourdough-starter/
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 08, 2019, 01:17:16 PM
I agree with Craig.   Having read a number of books and articles I subscribe to the idea that making a sourdough is one of the most voodoo and contrived processes around.

I have bought starters from a couple different suppliers and without a doubt the Ischia from Sourdo is wonderful.  The most active culture I have had.

But after time your starter will become more and more a feeding ground for whatever is on your flour and in the air in your home.

You don't need a culture from a supplier.  Just mix water and flour.  You don't need pineapples or cabbage or anything else. Let the chlorine evaporate and stir in your flour.   Leave it at room temp.  After 2 or 3 days you will see activity.   When you start to see bubbles coming up throw half away and mix in new water and flour.  Repeat that several times and in about 2 weeks you'll have what you need and because it is local it will be sustainable and serve you well for years.

If you have a bit of whole grain flour, especially rye, which should be easy to get over there, add a teaspoon or so of that.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on September 08, 2019, 02:27:29 PM
Here's another guide to making a starter, very well described, with photos: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 08, 2019, 03:00:03 PM
Here's another guide to making a starter, very well described, with photos: https://www.theperfectloaf.com/7-easy-steps-making-incredible-sourdough-starter-scratch/

That's a pretty good guide but even this one has some unnecessary voodoo.  You should have a scale in your kitchen for serious stuff but you sure don't need it to make sourdough starters.   Mix flour and water to get about the same as you would for making pancakes or flapjacks ... maybe a bit thicker.   If you go to the extreme in thickness you will make a dessem ball famous in Belgian baking.  So just fly it.   
Just my 2 cents worth .... KISS   Keep it Simple (Stupid)

PS   if you like to see the bubbles and the level rise in your jar, you do want some thickness in mix.  If it is too watery the bubbles come to the surface and break and you won't see much action.

PS2   The Weck jars are the worth getting.  Wide top, tapered sides, easy to stir in. Easy to clean.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HansB on September 08, 2019, 03:48:59 PM
That's a pretty good guide but even this one has some unnecessary voodoo.  You should have a scale in your kitchen for serious stuff but you sure don't need it to make sourdough starters.   Mix flour and water to get about the same as you would for making pancakes or flapjacks ... maybe a bit thicker.   If you go to the extreme in thickness you will make a dessem ball famous in Belgian baking.  So just fly it.   
Just my 2 cents worth .... KISS   Keep it Simple (Stupid)

PS   if you like to see the bubbles and the level rise in your jar, you do want some thickness in mix.  If it is too watery the bubbles come to the surface and break and you won't see much action.

PS2   The Weck jars are the worth getting.  Wide top, tapered sides, easy to stir in. Easy to clean.

I agree, everyone wants to complicate it. This is the method I recommend, dead simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuU0xmqEZyI&app=desktop
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 08, 2019, 04:56:29 PM
That's a great video.   He's got it nailed.  Even down to latest 5% idea I read somewhere.

That is once you've got the starter rockin' and rollin' you have more than enough live stuff
in 5% ... and all you need to do is add food for it to each.   And you can see the result in the last
bit how it expands to double in just 2 hours.f

I like to use an elastic band around the jar to note the rise.

I also like to keep 2 jars going.  Just in case one gets dropped or .... you know stuff happens.

KISS wins again. 
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: starfish on September 09, 2019, 05:27:28 AM
Thanks a lot for the great advice everyone! Two questions though:

1) Craig and a few others mentioned that they started with buying a starter Ė and after a few years (or months) switching to "something local" or making their own starter. That sounds completely logical to me. But does it make sense to jump right into making my own starter without having any experience with sourdough? How should I judge if my own starter is good, great or just mediocre if I have no possibilities for comparison?

2) Can anybody comment on my question regarding the sourness of Ischia? Is it more on the sour side or not? Is a pretty sour starter to be preferred for pizza or not? (I wouldn't think so, but maybe I'm wrong.) I know, each to his or her own taste, but I would like to hear your opinion because you've experimented with different sd cultures already and I haven't. I think this is also important knowledge when making your own starter: What kind of flavour are you looking for and how would you tweak (or start all over) to stir in the right direction?

Thanks a lot, really appreciated!

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Heikjo on September 09, 2019, 06:04:40 AM
1) It's no problem making your own. That's what most people do. You can obviously not compare it to fi. Ischia without having an Ischia, but you can get used to your own first and then decide later if you want to try a different one.

2) Initially I though the Ischia starter I bought had a lot of tang, but that also depends on how you feed it, use it in the dough and how long you ferment. I've had my own starter and the Ischia, but I think the Ischia one has change its bacteria culture, because it has developed more towards my own in taste.

I don't look for too much sourness in my pizza doughs. I eat almost exlusively sourdough bread and pizza, so maybe I'm just used to it, but it feels more like pizza and bread with commercial yeast taste hollow and very little at all. Even without a lot of sourness, the sourdough products taste much better, even if they are not very sour.

Some people want a lot of sourness and try to work their starter and method in that direction. Others want as little as possible. I wouldn't think too much about that at this point. Just get started making a starter and take it from there. You can experiment with that stuff later if you want to. It's also impossible to tell what flavor will come from a starter you make yourself since it depends on the flour and your environment.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2019, 06:13:21 AM
No, Ischia doesn't typically make a particularly sour crust.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 09, 2019, 08:45:54 AM
In a sourdough you have yeast and lactobacillus as primary active agents.  From what I have read they become more active
at different temperatures.   Now I cannot recall which is which and I will try to find the reference and post it, but for now take
this as imperfect

Yeast is more active at warmer temperatures and will become more populous in the starter
Lactobacillus is more active at cooler temperatures and will become more populous at lower temperatures and produce more lactic acid making the resulting dough more sour.

So it depends to some extent on how you keep your starter, warmer or cooler, that is keep it in the fridge or on the countertop.
It is well known that if you put dough in the fridge it dramatically slows down activity of yeast so I think I've got it correct.
This allows activity other than that from yeast to continue to work to improve the flavours we like.
It seems with any starter you can manage it to some degree to make you bread or pizza more sour.

Now I'm feeling challenged to find the article and make sure I've got it the right way around.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HansB on September 09, 2019, 09:04:31 AM
Here you go:

Bacterial Fermentation

Bacteria are primitive one-celled organisms. The types of bacteria common in bread dough consume the same simple sugars used by yeast cells. The primary by-products of bacteria in dough fermentation, though, are two types of organic acids: lactic acid and acetic acid. Lactic acid is also found naturally in milk and in concentrated form it produces the tangy flavor we find in yogurt. Acetic acid is found in all varieties of vinegar and is more sour than lactic acid.

ORGANIC ACIDS PROVIDE STRENGTH AND FLAVOR

The types of bacteria that produce these acids can thrive in temperatures of 50-90F and are collectively referred to as lactic bacteria. As bakers, we are concerned with two types of LAB, homofermentative and heterofermentative.

These names may seem hard to pronounce and even harder to remember, but it is important to identify them and explain a bit about their behavior. Yeast must be regulated to control how fast the dough rises, but the bacteria primarily determine how well your dough will mature and how the bread will taste. If you want your bread to develop good handling properties naturally and to taste good, you must pay as much attention to the quantity and type of bacteria in your dough as you do the activity of the yeast.

This is, perhaps, the one concept in artisan style baking that escapes bakers who look for easy, time saving ways to make bread. Unfortunately, bacterial fermentation almost always proceeds more slowly than yeast fermentation, much more slowly. Scientist have successfully isolated strains of the yeast saccharomyces cerevisiae that can speed carbon dioxide production considerably. Lactic bacteria have so far been much less cooperative; the bacteria in bread dough we make today probably arenít different from those present in the times of Moses.

HOMOFERMENTATIVE BACTERIA

Homofermentative bacteria prefer environments that are wet and moderately warm, perhaps 70-95F. Their chief by-product during fermentation is lactic acid which is fairly mild in it's sourness compared to the sharper acids contained in lemon juice or  vinegar. Homofermentative bacteria can survive in somewhat drier conditions and within other temperature ranges but they do better in the warmer range.

HETEROFERMENTATIVE BACTERIA

Heterofermentative Bacteria do better in somewhat drier and cooler environments, they prefer temperatures of about 50-65F. They produce both lactic acid and acetic acid as by-products as well as a small amount of CO2. Acetic acid is also found commonly in vinegar and itís flavor is much sharper that that of lactic acid. Heterofermmentative bacteria can survive in some numbers as different temperatures than specified and in wetter environments, but drier and cooler situations favor their reproduction and their ability to ferment bread dough.

Daniel T. DiMuzio, Bread Baking.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 09, 2019, 09:52:30 AM
Thanks Hans.   DiMuzio explains what happens that is pretty much what I recall, however the issue of how sour your dough becomes involves the balance between the acid production and fermentation and he does not give a clear comment on that balance.   Still looking.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: CaskConditioned on September 09, 2019, 12:23:52 PM
I agree, everyone wants to complicate it. This is the method I recommend, dead simple.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuU0xmqEZyI&app=desktop

Apologies if this has been discussed before...

I'm a newbie when it comes to starters (as well as pizza making).  I have reviewed several videos and it seems relatively simple.  But what if I don't make pizza every week, can I refrigerate the starter and then feed it a few days before I need it?  Or is a starter something you have to feed daily?

Thanks in advance for your suggestions and I look forward to learning a ton more in the coming months.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 09, 2019, 01:22:19 PM
I keep my starter in the fridge and take it out, warm it for a couple hours, feed it an once it gets active and rises, it goes back in the fridge.

Sometimes it goes 2 or 3 weeks without feeding.   In that case it sometimes need to be fed twice to get it really going strong.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HansB on September 09, 2019, 02:52:06 PM
"can I refrigerate the starter and then feed it a few days before I need it?" 

Yes. That's exactly what I do.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 09, 2019, 09:42:17 PM
Me also...4 weeks out, still Bliss
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: iLLEb on September 10, 2019, 03:32:54 AM
Is there any difference temp starter wise to increase airy dough?

I seem to have dough handling fairly under control but still would like to be able to push more air in to the cornicione, but it seems i need more air :P

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: halfprice on September 13, 2019, 09:42:14 PM
Well Craig I'm taking a leap of faith and following your guideline for a 48 hr 65* ish ferment

For 4 balls at 275 gms it called for 1.5% or 11 grams of starter.  Sure seems small but its mixed and in the cooler with a frozen bottle.  I think it's going to be difficult maintaining 65*

Made the mistake of not putting ice in the cooler before making the dough.  It was in the 90*+ garage and its 79 in the cooler now. I added some blue ice packs to get temp down then ll try to hold the 65

First time using my Ischia for pizza. Makes a great bread


More to come

Jerry
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on September 14, 2019, 01:28:36 PM
On the discussion about how long to go between feedings of your starter, by coincidence today I got an email from Breadtopia who did a test on a 3 week starved starter and a freshly feed starter.

It was quite amazing that the results were nearly identical

here is their article
https://breadtopia.com/challenging-sourdough-starter-convention/?utm_source=wysija&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Challenging+Sourdough+Starter+Convention
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ivowiblo on December 25, 2019, 09:14:37 PM
I just finished reading the whole thread (as a Christmas present maybe?). I'm fascinated by the amount of knowledge, wisdom and kindness.
Of course, it challenged everything I think I know about pizzamaking but hey! Isn't that the reason why I keep coming to this beautiful forum?

To more and better pizza.

 :pizza:
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 26, 2019, 08:15:51 AM
I just finished reading the whole thread (as a Christmas present maybe?). I'm fascinated by the amount of knowledge, wisdom and kindness.
Of course, it challenged everything I think I know about pizzamaking but hey! Isn't that the reason why I keep coming to this beautiful forum?

To more and better pizza.

 :pizza:

Part 2 of challenging everything you know: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ivowiblo on January 07, 2020, 10:41:37 PM
Omfg and I thought I was going to sleep!

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: morrissey on March 21, 2020, 03:25:44 AM
could I use a biga recipe like one from Jim Lahey in place of the sourdough starter, but use the same percentages? I ask bc I do have biga on hand from bread making, but no sourdough starter.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsaras on March 21, 2020, 10:12:16 AM
could I use a biga recipe like one from Jim Lahey in place of the sourdough starter, but use the same percentages? I ask bc I do have biga on hand from bread making, but no sourdough starter.
A biga is not a 1-to-1 replacement for a sourdough starter.  A dry yeast-based clump is not going to ferment at the same rate. However, if you have a fermentation regimen from another formula that has worked for you, you can plug that into the basic formula, but youíd have to subtract the amounts of flour and water to determine how it affects the overall hydration.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ivowiblo on March 23, 2020, 12:11:58 PM
I always wandered if the SD in this recipe needs to be active. I mean (and I'm struggling with the expressions as I am not native english speaker)... do you have to feed your starter until the point it has doubled and it's "ready"? Since I keep my SD in the fridge and only feed it when I'm going to do bread (once a week), I find it difficult to feed it for this small amounts.

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 23, 2020, 02:49:55 PM
Yes, I think it needs to be active.

Quote
I find it difficult to feed it for this small amounts.

You're going to need to make more than you need then throw some away. What does that cost extra? A couple cents?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsaras on March 23, 2020, 03:55:41 PM
I always wandered if the SD in this recipe needs to be active. I mean (and I'm struggling with the expressions as I am not native english speaker)... do you have to feed your starter until the point it has doubled and it's "ready"? Since I keep my SD in the fridge and only feed it when I'm going to do bread (once a week), I find it difficult to feed it for this small amounts.

Thanks!

I keep about 150 grams of starter in the jar.  There are a lot of varying feeding regimens, but that quantity has been perfect for my home use.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: ivowiblo on March 23, 2020, 09:22:06 PM
Yes, I think it needs to be active.

You're going to need to make more than you need then throw some away. What does that cost extra? A couple cents?

tell that to my neurosis! :P
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 23, 2020, 10:00:45 PM
tell that to my neurosis! :P
tight wad a$$.  🎰🌴
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Chicago Bob on March 30, 2020, 06:03:52 PM
tight wad .  🎰🌴
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Cammy_17 on May 22, 2020, 08:48:45 AM
Used Craig's 62.5% dough--'00' flour, 1 g ADY, 16 g salt. kneaded 5 mins, stretched and folded 2-3 times in 20 minute intervals. Bulk 24 hours at 60ish Degree Far., Balled into 210 g balls for 24 hours at same temp., pulled to room temp for 3 hours before baking in OONI 3.

Dough seemed to be really wet and flimsy, resulted in difficult handling and shaping. Too much hydration? Not kneaded well enough to develop gluten strength? Any thoughts on my overall process. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: jsaras on May 22, 2020, 10:02:48 AM
Used Craig's 62.5% dough--'00' flour, 1 g ADY, 16 g salt. kneaded 5 mins, stretched and folded 2-3 times in 20 minute intervals. Bulk 24 hours at 60ish Degree Far., Balled into 210 g balls for 24 hours at same temp., pulled to room temp for 3 hours before baking in OONI 3.

Dough seemed to be really wet and flimsy, resulted in difficult handling and shaping. Too much hydration? Not kneaded well enough to develop gluten strength? Any thoughts on my overall process. Thanks.
Iíve only gone out to 24 hours RT, but Caputo does need quite a bit more kneading than regular flour.  Alternately, you could drop your hydration to 60% or less.  Iím currently have some dough at 60.5% hydration, as per a formulation published by Caputo.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 22, 2020, 06:24:30 PM
Used Craig's 62.5% dough--'00' flour, 1 g ADY, 16 g salt. kneaded 5 mins, stretched and folded 2-3 times in 20 minute intervals. Bulk 24 hours at 60ish Degree Far., Balled into 210 g balls for 24 hours at same temp., pulled to room temp for 3 hours before baking in OONI 3.

Dough seemed to be really wet and flimsy, resulted in difficult handling and shaping. Too much hydration? Not kneaded well enough to develop gluten strength? Any thoughts on my overall process. Thanks.

Specifically what flour are you using?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 24, 2020, 08:59:58 AM
My dough makes nice pizza with the Ischia starter but the dough balls look more like pancakes, I canít work out why?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 24, 2020, 12:17:06 PM
My dough makes nice pizza with the Ischia starter but the dough balls look more like pancakes, I canít work out why?

How long are you in balls?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 25, 2020, 05:39:07 AM
They are in balls for 24 hours at 65F,

I don't know if I am making a mistake with the ischia starter. i take out approx 20gms from the fridge, mix it with 20grms flour and 20 grms of water and leave it to ferment for about 8-10 hours. Once it has frothed up I use it at 1.3% as you do.

The pizzas are really good, but the fact that they loose there shape tells me something isn't quite right ?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 25, 2020, 08:26:35 AM
I sounds like they are a bit underfermented. Try 2% and everything else the same.

If they are still too flat, try 2% and do 36h bulk + 18h balls.

If they are still flat with on;y 18h in balls, try balling the dough a bit tighter.

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Cammy_17 on May 25, 2020, 09:50:46 AM
Specifically what flour are you using?


Molina Pizzuti
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 25, 2020, 11:16:45 AM

Molina Pizzuti

Which one?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Cammy_17 on May 25, 2020, 05:33:10 PM
Which one?

00 Flour
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 25, 2020, 06:02:58 PM
00 Flour

That flour is really low gluten and absorption. You might try lowering the hydration to 58% and then work up from there.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 25, 2020, 08:36:51 PM
Thanks Craig, I will give that a try and see how I go
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Cammy_17 on May 26, 2020, 08:33:51 AM
That flour is really low gluten and absorption. You might try lowering the hydration to 58% and then work up from there.

Thanks for the feedback Craig, much appreciated. With the low gluten and absorption of this flour, how will that impact the over all dough and fermentation time? Any changes to the process required to get the nice char and airy cornicione we are all after?

Also, what are your thoughts on mixing flours? I ask as I have a La Molisana Double Milled Durum Wheat Semolina Flour which is ~14% protein. Could I mix this with the 00 Flour?

I would order Caputo Blue but due to the pandemic it is almost impossible to get your hands on some so I've been trying to find some alternatives.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 26, 2020, 09:11:44 AM
Thanks for the feedback Craig, much appreciated. With the low gluten and absorption of this flour, how will that impact the over all dough and fermentation time? Any changes to the process required to get the nice char and airy cornicione we are all after?

Also, what are your thoughts on mixing flours? I ask as I have a La Molisana Double Milled Durum Wheat Semolina Flour which is ~14% protein. Could I mix this with the 00 Flour?

I would order Caputo Blue but due to the pandemic it is almost impossible to get your hands on some so I've been trying to find some alternatives.

With that flour, it probably makes sense to keep fermentation to 24 hours or less. It's not a problem. 8-12 hours can make great pizza.

I'm not a flour blender. All I can say is try it and see if you still have problems after lowering the hydration and ferment time.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Cammy_17 on May 26, 2020, 10:57:03 AM
With that flour, it probably makes sense to keep fermentation to 24 hours or less. It's not a problem. 8-12 hours can make great pizza.

I'm not a flour blender. All I can say is try it and see if you still have problems after lowering the hydration and ferment time.

Thanks Craig. Appreciate it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 27, 2020, 09:03:45 PM
Hi Craig, I tried 2% ischia and so far I am having the same problems - as soon as I ball up they start sagging,, and within a few hours they are like thick pancakes. I will try bulk for 36hrs and see if that helps.

I do suspect there is something else going on, like my preparation of the starter. It has crossed my mind that when I use the starter it is overacticated as it is super bubbly. maybe I should prepare the starter at 65F to slow down the fermentation a bit ? I always prepare at room temp but am starting to question that
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 28, 2020, 01:30:40 AM
Or perhaps I should kneed it a little more to develop the gluten ?

I am using red bag caputo, and I think someone somewhere mentioned the caputo needs more kneading?

Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 28, 2020, 07:44:01 AM
Or perhaps I should kneed it a little more to develop the gluten ?

I am using red bag caputo, and I think someone somewhere mentioned the caputo needs more kneading?

It's probably not that unless you're balling right after mixing. Gluten will fully develop in 24 hours with zero kneading. Pictures of the dough would be very helpful - when first balled, when ready top open, just before topping, baked crust, crumb, etc. The more the better - high enough resolution to show detail.

What's your exact formula and workflow?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 28, 2020, 08:56:53 AM
Hi Craig, thanks so much for getting back to me.
First thing I do is take 10gms of starter out the fridge and mix it with 10grms flour, and 10 grms of water. I then leave it to ferment for 10 hours or so until it is super bubbly. I am now thinking it might be past its best so I am considering reducing that time to 2-3 hours? That might help?

then I use:

100% red caputo
60% water
1.3 - 2% prepared ischia starter,
3% salt

From there on in I just follow your instructions precisely.

I will try and take some pics soon.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: WeatherWimp on May 28, 2020, 10:00:22 PM
I've been trying to get a handle on this recipe and have two questions in case Craig or anyone else can answer.

1) Craig says to sub 0.024 IDY (see attached photo) as a starting point for his sourdough starter, yet when I follow 0.024 down to 48 hours I see the temperature would be about 60.5 degrees, yet the recipe is for circa 65 degrees. Why wouldn't 0.015 IDY be used (following 65 degrees over to 48 hours-ish on the baker's yeast chart)? 

If it is experience that has led to increasing from 0.015 to 0.024, how would one adjust for other temperatures?

2) For maintaining rt is it using the bottle of ice in a cooler and swapping out every 12 hours to keep it to that 65 degrees? I have much smaller coolers so will have to play around with a similar method to try to get a stable enough temp to try this recipe if so. Ambient indoor temp is going to run anywhere from 67 to 77 in my house this time of year.

Thanks!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 29, 2020, 08:33:18 AM
My fermentation temp has gone down since I wrote the how-to post back in 2012. It's now typically in the 60-62F range which is why 0.024%.

The need for some testing and tweaking should always be expected.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: WeatherWimp on May 29, 2020, 09:30:09 AM
It's now typically in the 60-62F range which is why 0.024%.


Thank you for that, so I can follow the chart like I've been doing to find a starting point and then go from there to adjust as needed in subsequent tries.

For the temperature, are you using a basement or cellar or something? Or a setup with the frozen water bottle in a cooler bath?

Edit: Scratch that, I see in November of last year you mentioned you still do it with the cooler method.  Not sure I have a big enough cooler but no harm doing some tests I suppose.

Thanks for the excellent resources / experience you have shared.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 29, 2020, 10:59:05 AM
Yup. Still do the cooler. A wine fridge would be better, but I don't have a good place to put it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 08:59:30 AM
These are my poorly taken pictures of my dough,
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:01:04 AM
The first 2 are bulk after 24 hrs at 65F
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:02:01 AM
The ball up nicely
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:02:53 AM
back into the cooler
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:04:35 AM
Then within another 24hrs - the dough loses its shape and resembles a fat pancake
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:05:35 AM
side profile
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:07:26 AM
Still seems to have bubbles though which looks like it should be fermenting ? I just don't get the shape?

Sorry about my photography
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2020, 01:20:47 PM
I don't see anything that worries me in those pictures.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:13:27 PM
When I used to use fresh yeast I used to get proper pizza dough balls that you could fit in a dough tray. I love using the ischia but the balls very quickly lose their shape and become more difficult to stretch out
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: kashmir107 on May 31, 2020, 09:26:11 PM
I should also say that the balls don't double in size, they rise only a tiny bit
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 01, 2020, 09:04:33 AM
You don't need 2X. 1.75 is enough. If they aren't rising enough add a bit more yeast. Work your way up in a series of tiny increments until you find the right amount.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: luckydutch on May 19, 2021, 05:51:47 AM
Thanks for sharing the process in such detail. It was a very interesting read.

I'm curious to know why you go for such a long 'cool' fermentation for your dough (about 36h in total) with a very small % of starter?

I've recently started messing around with natural starters both for pizza and for sourdough loaves. It seems like the go-to method for loaf baking is 15-20% starter, 4-6 bulk ferment on the bench while doing the stretches for gluten forming then just 12-16 hours in a banneton in the fridge. Total ferment time being less than 24h.

This is obviously very different to your method for pizza that you've had so much success with and I would be interested to know why the method for pizza dough is a much slower ferment? Is it for flavor or for oven rise (obviously pizza is in the oven only for a few minutes so needs to rise fast).
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 19, 2021, 08:34:09 AM
I think it makes the best pizza. Here are my thoughts on the science behind it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: luckydutch on May 19, 2021, 09:45:10 AM
I think it makes the best pizza. Here are my thoughts on the science behind it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0

Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

So if I were to try to replicate your pizza method with a 1-1-1 natural sourdough starter or some commercial yeast like ADY (can't get my hands on Ischia Culture), I'd want to go with a much, much smaller amount of starter/yeast and allow that long fermentation time at as close as I can get to 65F?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: billg on May 19, 2021, 10:33:37 AM
Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

So if I were to try to replicate your pizza method with a 1-1-1 natural sourdough starter or some commercial yeast like ADY (can't get my hands on Ischia Culture), I'd want to go with a much, much smaller amount of starter/yeast and allow that long fermentation time at as close as I can get to 65F?

You can buy the Ischia starter on Amazon or from sourdoughs.net
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: 02ebz06 on May 19, 2021, 10:47:27 AM
You can buy the Ischia starter on Amazon or from sourdoughs.net

I think best place to get the Ischia Starter from is sourdo.com
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 19, 2021, 11:20:07 AM
Interesting that the evidence suggests that cold fermenting like in a fridge actually isn't advantageous when it comes to flavor. I wonder if the same applies to bread and everyone just uses the fridge because it's convenient...

Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

* For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: luckydutch on May 19, 2021, 12:00:54 PM
Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

* For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

Very interesting. For convenience's sake I think I could still use regular cold ferment from time to time when using baker's yeast but I will definitely have to look into a coolbox to do room temperature ferments with my sourdough then.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: luckydutch on May 20, 2021, 07:21:35 AM
Cold fermenting is a great method* because it's logistically very simple and has a HUGE margin of error. The same is not true of room temp fermentation though I do believe you make gains in aroma, flavor, and texture.

* For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

Looking at your fermentation chart, if you were to make with a normal homemade SD starter, not the ischia starter, would the same % of starter be appropriate for the same fermentation times? Is the Ischia starter particularly active?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2021, 08:14:39 AM
Looking at your fermentation chart, if you were to make with a normal homemade SD starter, not the ischia starter, would the same % of starter be appropriate for the same fermentation times? Is the Ischia starter particularly active?

While there have been outliers, the table has proven to be reasonably predictive with a wide range of starters. Your individual workflow can also make a meaningful difference. It's really just intended to help find a starting point. Some testing and tweaking should be expected.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: RHawthorne on May 20, 2021, 09:58:15 AM


* For baker's yeast only.
Duly noted. Have you ever tried, or considered trying, lager yeast and doing cold fermentation? I've done it, and I can say for sure that the results for me have been at least as good as any dough I've made with baker's yeast at RT, and possibly better. Lager yeast is actually most active at low temperatures, and thus quite well suited for fermentation of pizza dough in the fridge. Just a little food for thought for your next fermentation adventure, if you feel like it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2021, 10:20:36 AM
By "baker's yeast only," what I meant was "not sourdough."
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: RHawthorne on May 20, 2021, 10:51:24 AM
By "baker's yeast only," what I meant was "not sourdough."
Right, but what about the rest of what I was asking about?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: EthanPizza on May 20, 2021, 11:07:50 AM
* For baker's yeast only. I personally don't think cold fermenting is a good choice for SD. I think it dramatically degrades quality in every attribute.

Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2021, 02:09:46 PM
Right, but what about the rest of what I was asking about?

I have not tried it.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 20, 2021, 02:11:14 PM
Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.

I haven't tried that for pizza, but I agree it can be an effective breadmaking technique.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Pete-zza on May 20, 2021, 02:56:40 PM
Have you ever made a sourdough based poolish at RT and then made dough with it and refrigerated that? For whatever reason, ( I don't know the science, the chemistry, or the reasoning behind it) my direct dough and sourdough leavened bigas seem to be gummy with CT, but my poolish does not get at all gummy and is only enhanced by the retardation of the dough being able to develop flavors that I cannot achieve in RT before it over proofs.
EthanPizza,

You might take a look at this post, at Reply 151 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774

The above post was in 2005 and at a time where I did not know much about preferments, including poolish, but my recollection is that I regularly fed my sourdough starter with equal amounts of flour and water by weight.

Peter
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: EthanPizza on May 20, 2021, 03:32:21 PM
EthanPizza,

You might take a look at this post, at Reply 151 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg11774#msg11774

The above post was in 2005 and at a time where I did not know much about preferments, including poolish, but my recollection is that I regularly fed my sourdough starter with equal amounts of flour and water by weight.

Peter

Nicely! Looks like my direct dough with my 1:1:1 flour/water/starter sourdough approach, only NY style instead of Contemporary Neapolitan. That crust air looks amazing on that pie. I generally did around 16% starter when using my Starter. Why I'm in love with the poolish, is it allows me to create a preferment with 8:8:1 flour/water/starter, which seems to allow me to bake in my roccbox in 1 to 2 minutes without the gummy issues I had been struggling with.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mrabear13 on June 07, 2021, 10:59:27 AM
Hello All

I started up my Ischia Culture about a month ago and have finally made a few batches of pizza with it, following TXCraig's method as closely as I can (thanks Criag!). It seems to be working well and making great pies (my goal is to perfect the classic Neapolitan Style).

My question for those with more experience using Ischia cultures, is about flavor. These pizzas are tasting wonderful when I get a bite with the toppings, but when I eat the crust alone it has a very strong sourdough flavor. I am left with a lingering tangy aftertaste less reminiscent of pizza and more like a slice of strong sourdough bread from a bakery or deli. Is this the flavor you get when you use a sourdough culture? I could understand it might be the whole point, and maybe just not be for me personally. But I also see a lot of posts about how different a mature starter is from a newer one. Does this sour taste diminish as the culture matures?

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: HansB on June 07, 2021, 11:06:12 AM
Hello All

I started up my Ischia Culture about a month ago and have finally made a few batches of pizza with it, following TXCraig's method as closely as I can (thanks Criag!). It seems to be working well and making great pies (my goal is to perfect the classic Neapolitan Style).

My question for those with more experience using Ischia cultures, is about flavor. These pizzas are tasting wonderful when I get a bite with the toppings, but when I eat the crust alone it has a very strong sourdough flavor. I am left with a lingering tangy aftertaste less reminiscent of pizza and more like a slice of strong sourdough bread from a bakery or deli. Is this the flavor you get when you use a sourdough culture? I could understand it might be the whole point, and maybe just not be for me personally. But I also see a lot of posts about how different a mature starter is from a newer one. Does this sour taste diminish as the culture matures?

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts!

Your feeding regimen and temp determines the flavor of your starter. How often do you feed your starter?
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sk on June 08, 2021, 09:48:17 AM
Expanding on what HansB said.  The longer the culture rests after feeding, the stronger it becomes.  Once you understand your particular culture's habits, you can make dough just but before or at peak rise of the culture.  At that point, Ischia is very mild.  Warmer temperatures will also result in it reaching peak at a faster rate.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: Brent-r on June 08, 2021, 10:11:41 AM
Daniel DiMusio has a book "Baking Bread" and in it he has a few pages on how time, temperature and water percentage effect the flavor of a dough.  He explains how yeast and lactobacilus favour one set of conditions, and or the other and can make either more alcohol/CO2 or acetic acid.  I can send you
the details in pdf if you send me a private message with your email.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: EthanPizza on June 08, 2021, 11:24:28 AM
Hello All

I started up my Ischia Culture about a month ago and have finally made a few batches of pizza with it, following TXCraig's method as closely as I can (thanks Criag!). It seems to be working well and making great pies (my goal is to perfect the classic Neapolitan Style).

My question for those with more experience using Ischia cultures, is about flavor. These pizzas are tasting wonderful when I get a bite with the toppings, but when I eat the crust alone it has a very strong sourdough flavor. I am left with a lingering tangy aftertaste less reminiscent of pizza and more like a slice of strong sourdough bread from a bakery or deli. Is this the flavor you get when you use a sourdough culture? I could understand it might be the whole point, and maybe just not be for me personally. But I also see a lot of posts about how different a mature starter is from a newer one. Does this sour taste diminish as the culture matures?

Thanks in advance for any and all thoughts!

The answer to your dilemma is easy. I create what I call a Sourdough Poolish. It's just a leaven/ starter with way different ratios. Whereas my starter takes 8 hours to peak and is made at a ratio of 1:1:1 flour/water/starter my leaven is 1:1:8 and it takes 20 hours to peak. Using less starter completely eliminates sourness while keeping delicious taste. I can use 20 to 50% leaven this way with amazing results.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: mrabear13 on June 08, 2021, 12:57:33 PM
Thank you for all of your responses! It sounds like I have more control over the flavor than I realized.

I keep my starter in the fridge, and pull it out to make dough each week or two. I feed it 1:1:1 right out of the fridge, and in about 4-6 hours it has tripled in volume, which I thought was the best time to use it. So that is the point where I take a bit for my pizza dough, 1.5-2.0% (its so sticky, I am never sure the exact grams that make it into the bowl). I put the rest of the starter, presumably still near its peak, right back in the fridge. So the starter is only out of the fridge for about 6 hours a week.

Does my process raise any flavor flags to you all? I am also feeding my starter with white AP flour, but making pizza dough with 00 flour. Is that your common practice?

I will respond to some of you directly for the advice you offered. Thanks again!
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: 02ebz06 on June 08, 2021, 01:30:01 PM
its so sticky, I am never sure the exact grams that make it into the bowl)

Before you take some out to use, weigh the container with the starter.
Weigh it again after you take some out.
Subtract 2nd reading from 1st, and you know how much you took out.
Easy to add or take away from there to get the amount you want.

Weighing the empty container and writing the amount on it is always handy.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: EthanPizza on June 08, 2021, 03:39:47 PM
Thank you for all of your responses! It sounds like I have more control over the flavor than I realized.

I keep my starter in the fridge, and pull it out to make dough each week or two. I feed it 1:1:1 right out of the fridge, and in about 4-6 hours it has tripled in volume, which I thought was the best time to use it.

try feeding a piece of it 1:1:8 (and the normal starter 1:1:1 and put that one back in the fridge.) the rise time will be much longer but I think it will fix all of your issues.
Title: Re: The Entire Pizza Making Process I use at the Garage
Post by: sk on June 10, 2021, 11:00:31 AM
Thank you for all of your responses! It sounds like I have more control over the flavor than I realized.

I keep my starter in the fridge, and pull it out to make dough each week or two. I feed it 1:1:1 right out of the fridge, and in about 4-6 hours it has tripled in volume, which I thought was the best time to use it. So that is the point where I take a bit for my pizza dough, 1.5-2.0% (its so sticky, I am never sure the exact grams that make it into the bowl). I put the rest of the starter, presumably still near its peak, right back in the fridge. So the starter is only out of the fridge for about 6 hours a week.

Does my process raise any flavor flags to you all? I am also feeding my starter with white AP flour, but making pizza dough with 00 flour. Is that your common practice?

I will respond to some of you directly for the advice you offered. Thanks again!

I do almost the same with my Ischia starter.  Out of fridge Thursday morning.  Feed Thursday night and again Friday morning.  Make pizza dough Friday night.  Leave starter out overnight.  Feed Saturday morning and put back in fridge.  Make pizza Saturday night after 24 hour proof. 

My flavor profile is not sour at all.  It is very mild in fact.