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Offline ilya_n

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Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« on: October 21, 2021, 04:24:29 PM »
Hi everyone,

I've been making most of my pizzas with poolish very successfully and recently decided to experiment with straight doughs.

What has been peeking my interest is this:

What difference should I expect making the dough two different ways:

1. 24 hours @ room temperature with significantly smaller amount of yeast
vs
2. 2 hours bulk ferment at RT, balling and then remaining 22 hours in the fridge with higher amount of yeast. Bring back to RT an hour or two before baking.

The best way is probably make both and try side by side but very curious to see your opinions and what you personally find that works best.
My impression from the past was that the dough doesn't fully warm up before baking and not as elastic when stretching out. I personally prefer to work with warm dough.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2021, 04:37:54 PM »
ilya_n,

I canít help you with your second dough, but this thread might help you for the first dough:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

Peter


Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2021, 04:55:41 PM »
Would be difficult to compare #1 vs 2 because you are changing yeast quantity to compensate for the temperature difference.

If it's going in the fridge then I would choose to go longer to attain more flavor.

As you realize, experiment away.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2021, 05:01:25 PM »
ilya_n,

I canít help you with your second dough, but this thread might help you for the first dough:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

Peter

Thank you Peter! Amazing post - extremely informative.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2021, 05:03:15 PM »
Would be difficult to compare #1 vs 2 because you are changing yeast quantity to compensate for the temperature difference.

If it's going in the fridge then I would choose to go longer to attain more flavor.

As you realize, experiment away.

What I'm hearing from your response is that there's really no need to mess with cold fermentation for a 24 hour dough. Is that correct?
Basically if I plan 2-3 days in advance, go with CF for flavor development and anything 24 hours and shorter just room temperature?

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Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2021, 05:08:25 PM »
I make Focaccia at room temperature, about 18 hours. I don't like pizza without cold ferment of at least 3 days minimum. I don't agree that I would avoid cold ferment.

You really need to try it every way possible until it makes you 😊.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2021, 05:16:32 PM »
I make Focaccia at room temperature, about 18 hours. I don't like pizza without cold ferment of at least 3 days minimum. I don't agree that I would avoid cold ferment.

You really need to try it every way possible until it makes you 😊.

Now that you say focaccia :) I've been experimenting with it and kinda stuck to a 10 hour RT fermentation for it. I'm in the process of trying different recipes and variations. Here's a picture from the latest one. Do you mind sharing your dough recipe please?

Offline Pizza_Not_War

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2021, 05:33:34 PM »
500g flour - 400g bf or AP, 100g mix of rye and ww.
375g H2O very cold.
10g coconut sugar or honey
Diastatic malt optional if none in flour.
12g salt
45-65g sourdough starter. Sub with yeast will be your guess as I've never used yeast for it.

Mix to combine, let rest two hours and stretch and fold with spatula until smooth. Cover overnight and then dump into a black steel pan with 30-50g olive oil. Flip dough to coat in oil and let rest a few hours until it looks bubbly. Spread to edges with fingers and bake 25 minutes at 425f.

This makes a chewy focaccia which also freezes well and might be even better reheated. It's addicting. I also use high protein flour when I can get it. All organic ingredients for me.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2021, 05:40:52 PM »
500g flour - 400g bf or AP, 100g mix of rye and ww.
375g H2O very cold.
10g coconut sugar or honey
Diastatic malt optional if none in flour.
12g salt
45-65g sourdough starter. Sub with yeast will be your guess as I've never used yeast for it.

Mix to combine, let rest two hours and stretch and fold with spatula until smooth. Cover overnight and then dump into a black steel pan with 30-50g olive oil. Flip dough to coat in oil and let rest a few hours until it looks bubbly. Spread to edges with fingers and bake 25 minutes at 425f.

This makes a chewy focaccia which also freezes well and might be even better reheated. It's addicting. I also use high protein flour when I can get it. All organic ingredients for me.

Thanks a bunch! Will try soon.

Online Rolls

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2021, 06:13:21 PM »
For NY-style pizza, I like to ferment the dough at RT for around 3-4 hours and then refrigerate overnight and pull it out about 3 hours before baking.  Disagree that you need to cold ferment for multiple days in order to develop flavor.  I also have no issues with stretching the dough, but that is not dependent on fermentation temperature alone.  Other factors are also at play with that.


Rolls
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Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2021, 09:37:53 PM »
For NY-style pizza, I like to ferment the dough at RT for around 3-4 hours and then refrigerate overnight and pull it out about 3 hours before baking.  Disagree that you need to cold ferment for multiple days in order to develop flavor.  I also have no issues with stretching the dough, but that is not dependent on fermentation temperature alone.  Other factors are also at play with that.


Rolls

Thank you. What about NP? I know true NP is RT only but makes me wonder if in the same boat.

Online Rolls

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2021, 08:14:10 AM »
Thank you. What about NP? I know true NP is RT only but makes me wonder if in the same boat.

Neapolitan pizza is deeply rooted in a culture that likes to maintain its traditions and the long-established practice for making pizza has always been the "direct method" using RT fermentation and baking in a wood-fired oven.  This is a "tried and true" method but not necessarily the only way of making a good NP, in my opinion.  I suspect there are plenty of places that use cold fermentation. 

Experiment and see what works for you.


Rolls
Parmigiano-Reggiano doesn't come in a green box!   - Chef Jean-Pierre

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #12 on: October 22, 2021, 07:23:21 PM »
Made an experiment: 3 hour RT bulk and then 24-25 hr CT. Wasnít overly happyÖ felt the dough was under developed. Although I have to say there were two more changes to my regular dough: dropped the hydration from 70% to 64% and the dough didnít feel as elastic during the stretch. Ended up with smaller pies than usual. Secondly, bumped the salt up from 2.6% to 3%. I could taste the saltiness in the dough even though I like salty food. The family liked the salt level even though they consume less than me lol go figureÖ

The pies looked ok to me but i wasnít 100% happy. It was still good but Iíve made much better. My previous poolish pies and all room temperature felt significantly more superior.

Maybe Iím getting picky as well haha

Offline amolapizza

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2021, 08:40:20 AM »
Very good looking pizza!

I've hardly ever used the fridge for Napoletana, so have very little experience with a fridge, however having hung out here for a few years I do have a thought or two.

The cold in the fridge will slow down the biological and chemical processes, though it apparently slows them down in different ratios.  It might be that a 24 hour fridge dough is relatively similar to an 8 hour RT dough, but most certainly YMMV and you might prefer one method to the other.

If the dough gets colder than 4C then the yeast will go to sleep, so while other processes might continue albeit at a slow pace, the dough won't ferment.

I think one could take advantage of this to get more maturation of the dough and a greater oven spring as one could use a lot more yeast than one would if fermenting at RT.

Ultimately I'd suspect that the best advantage of cold fermenting the dough is dough management.  Imagine if you have a pizzeria how great it would be to to be able to remove dough balls from the fridge depending on how busy you are and how many pizzas you sell. 

The next morning you make new dough to replace your stock of balls to be ready for the next day.  No running out of dough, and also a minimum of unsold dough balls at the end of the day.

Though from what we've been told a place like Da Michele manages to do this at RT.  IIRC they make two doughs in the morning, the first for use in the evening, the second for use in the morning next day.  The dough balls left over in the evening are the first used the next day.  I'm not quite sure of how they manage to do this without having over blown balls, but maybe they have super skills or actually move the leftover balls to some really cold place..

I suspect that there is no method that is the best, and at the most they are simply going to be slightly different in taste and how they handle and bake.  Though the thought of getting a better oven spring with CF balls due to the higher yeast percentage is intriguing.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2021, 09:45:45 AM »
good looking pizza!

If the dough gets colder than 4C then the yeast will go to sleep, so while other processes might continue albeit at a slow pace, the dough won't ferment.


Thank you. Your response made me realize that my fridge was at 33į so perhaps thatís why it felt a bit under developedÖ what I have learned from the experience is that I still rather prefer the RT or poolish methods. I guess Iíll stick to that for now before the next exploration call :) I will try the long CT fermentation for my next NY style bake though.

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #15 on: October 23, 2021, 10:31:28 AM »
If you have the fridge at 33F, then the yeast will only work in the RT part and while it cools down or heats up.  So you'd have to get the right yeast amount for the time and temperatures that that the dough spends at above 39F.  For the rest of the time there will probably still be some biochemical reactions, so maybe a 3 day CF dough will be nice.  More mature and with a higher yeast amount than a normal RT dough.

I'd be inclined to think that if it was clearly superior to cold ferment the dough, then all pizzerias would start doing so, and traditions be damned.  But the only way to find out, is to make loads of pizza!  :D
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #16 on: October 23, 2021, 12:29:27 PM »
If you have the fridge at 33F, then the yeast will only work in the RT part and while it cools down or heats up.  So you'd have to get the right yeast amount for the time and temperatures that that the dough spends at above 39F.  For the rest of the time there will probably still be some biochemical reactions, so maybe a 3 day CF dough will be nice.  More mature and with a higher yeast amount than a normal RT dough.

I'd be inclined to think that if it was clearly superior to cold ferment the dough, then all pizzerias would start doing so, and traditions be damned.  But the only way to find out, is to make loads of pizza!  :D

I have a small ďdrinksĒ fridge. Planning to bump up the temp to say 40į and test the process out again. Thanks again for the insight.

Offline drainaps

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2021, 12:50:08 PM »
The most relevant impact of longer cold fermentations happens when using levains (creatively called sourdoughs in the US,  but as the name has stuck, letís call them sourdoughs  ;)), not commercial yeast, and this because a levain is a combination (colony)of yeasts AND bacteria.  The keys here are (1) temperature affects yeast and bacteria activity differently, and (2) speaking of bacteria only, temperature tips the balance off towards either lactic -acetic or alcoholic fermentation, hence impacting the flavour palette.

Speaking of (1), activity, lower temps slow bacteria significantly more than they do yeast (cutting corners here). Speaking of (2), type of fermentation, (additional corner-cutting) in lower temperatures bacteria are in acetic fermentation mode, and as the temperature increases, fermentation becomes predominantly lactic.

To further complicate things, dough hydration adds a third axis to bacterial and yeast activity: higher hydration conveys higher activity for both bacteria and yeast, and a facilitation of lactic fermentations.

A fourth axis comes in the form of gluten-degrading enzymes, called proteases, that basically cut gluten strands in a process called proteolysis, de facto reversing the gluten built through mixing.

Speaking of commercial yeast (no significant presence of bacterial activity), and going back to your question, longer fermentations do allow yeasts to produce additional quantities of aromatic compounds, but thereís also significant proteolysis, especially at room temperature.  In order for fermentation to last long without exhausting the available starches / sugars, and especially without significant proteolysis (gluten destruction) they must be made at low temperatures.

In long fermentations at room temperature , you can control yeast activity by using, as you rightly say, much lower amounts of yeast (they can be REALLY tiny amounts into the tenths of gram if youíre mixing a small quantity of dough), but you canít control (reduce) enzymatic activity, enzymes are in the flour whatever you do.  Your dough will have a (very) poor gluten structure after a long fermentation at room temperature. You might get away with it with some kinds of flour, but in my opinion itís not worth the hassle.

The key for a long fermentation is in any case proper temperature control, something difficult to achieve in a domestic fridge or home kitchen. I believe that 2/3 of dough issues at home have to do with mastering temperature (we all know how to weigh yeast ).

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2021, 03:07:44 PM by drainaps »

Offline ilya_n

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2021, 09:03:52 PM »
The most relevant impact of longer cold fermentations happens when using levains (creatively called sourdoughs in the US,  but as the name has stuck, letís call them sourdoughs  ;)), not commercial yeast, and this because a levain is a combination (colony)of yeasts AND bacteria.  The keys here are (1) temperature affects yeast and bacteria activity differently, and (2) speaking of bacteria only, temperature tips the balance off towards either lactic -acetic or alcoholic fermentation, hence impacting the flavour palette.

Speaking of (1), activity, lower temps slow bacteria significantly more than they do yeast (cutting corners here). Speaking of (2), type of fermentation, (additional corner-cutting) in lower temperatures bacteria are in acetic fermentation mode, and as the temperature increases, fermentation becomes predominantly lactic.

To further complicate things, dough hydration adds a third axis to bacterial and yeast activity: higher hydration conveys higher activity for both bacteria and yeast, and a facilitation of lactic fermentations.

A fourth axis comes in the form of gluten-degrading enzymes, called proteases, that basically cut gluten strands in a process called proteolysis, de facto reversing the gluten built through mixing.

Speaking of commercial yeast (no significant presence of bacterial activity), and going back to your question, longer fermentations do allow yeasts to produce additional quantities of aromatic compounds, but thereís also significant proteolysis, especially at room temperature.  In order for fermentation to last long without exhausting the available starches / sugars, and especially without significant proteolysis (gluten destruction) they must be made at low temperatures.

In long fermentations at room temperature , you can control yeast activity by using, as you rightly say, much lower amounts of yeast (they can be REALLY tiny amounts into the tenths of gram if youíre mixing a small quantity of dough), but you canít control (reduce) enzymatic activity, enzymes are in the flour whatever you do.  Your dough will have a (very) poor gluten structure after a long fermentation at room temperature. You might get away with it with some kinds of flour, but in my opinion itís not worth the hassle.

The key for a long fermentation is in any case proper temperature control, something difficult to achieve in a domestic fridge or home kitchen. I believe that 2/3 of dough issues at home have to do with mastering temperature (we all know how to weigh yeast ).

Hope this helps.

Thank you for an extremely thorough explanation. This was really good and educational. Just reading through it I feel I may find that what I work with will gain better results from overnight poolish or same day straight dough recipes.

Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Cold Fermentation vs Room Temp
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2021, 10:19:19 PM »
The main reason to use CF in production? Consistency... so.... I make dough Monday afternoon for Tuesday. Tuesday AM at 6am, I take out my first load... then at 8am, 9am, 10am, 11am, 12pm and finally at 1pm. I have dough that is ready from 11am at opening, all the way to 7pm when I close. I could NOT do that with RT. I don't do it for taste, flavour, texture, nothing... it all comes down to convenience and consistency. I can't imagine trying to run a pizza place doing a RT ferment. Unless you had a temperature controlled room?? My kitchen is WAY too up and down to have dough sitting around all day and still be usable.

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