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Author Topic: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?  (Read 691 times)

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Offline PizzaboyTroy

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Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« on: May 08, 2022, 04:23:18 PM »
Hey guys, my usual recipe for Neapolitan pies is something like this:

816g flour
465g water (57%)
19g salt (2.3%)
0.26 IDY
00 flour.

260g dough balls to make 10-11Ē Neapolitan pies on my outdoor oven. No issues. 24 hour room temp bill ferment before balling for 4-6 hours.

Tried a different recipe today in attempt to make 14Ē pies. I used All Trumps bromated flour*** I have to state.

589g flour
353g water (60%)
18g salt (3%)
0.22g instant yeast

22 hour bill ferment. Balled 4 hours before stretching. 320g dough balls.

They ended up being the same size as my Neapolitan pies! Wouldnít stretch past 10Ē or so. I have no idea why. Seemed proofed enough. Passed the window pane test. But they kept shrinking past a certain point when I wanted to stretch them more.

What happened? Temperature of the room too cold? (68 degrees) I donít understand why a 320g ball wouldnít stretch further than my 260g dough balls.

Any ideas as to what happened?

Offline iamdrrahul

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #1 on: May 09, 2022, 03:02:31 AM »
Hello Troy,

It did not stretch because the protein content of all thumps is more than OO flour. It requires more time

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #2 on: May 09, 2022, 01:19:06 PM »
What was your mixing process like on the dough with AT flour? Bromated flour should give you a soft and workable dough with a shorter mixing time than non-bromated flours would. That's the main advantage it gives. I'm thinking maybe you just overworked the gluten and made it tough. If you're just making a small batch in a stand mixer or by hand, you really shouldn't need to knead the dough for more than 5 minutes on low speed. Also, I'm not sure you need that much salt. You may only need more like 2% to 2.5% for the texture you're trying to create. The more salt you use in your dough, the tighter the gluten network is going to be.
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Offline PizzaboyTroy

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #3 on: May 09, 2022, 09:54:23 PM »
What was your mixing process like on the dough with AT flour? Bromated flour should give you a soft and workable dough with a shorter mixing time than non-bromated flours would. That's the main advantage it gives. I'm thinking maybe you just overworked the gluten and made it tough. If you're just making a small batch in a stand mixer or by hand, you really shouldn't need to knead the dough for more than 5 minutes on low speed. Also, I'm not sure you need that much salt. You may only need more like 2% to 2.5% for the texture you're trying to create. The more salt you use in your dough, the tighter the gluten network is going to be.
Iíll give it another go soon with less salt! Very informative. I didnít know salt could have that effect beyond that percentage you mentioned.

I mixed, initially, till it was shaggy, then I covered it in a bowl for an hour to autolyze. I only kneaded (by hand) for 10 minutes. The next day, when I made the individual balls, I did so gently and pinched them shut on the bottoms.

Offline FoodSim

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #4 on: May 09, 2022, 10:58:05 PM »
Iíll give it another go soon with less salt! Very informative. I didnít know salt could have that effect beyond that percentage you mentioned.

Salt has a remarkable impact on extensibility. For instance, a dough made from 12.6% protein flour, with 2.0% salt is 46.1% more extensible than with 0% salt, because salt strengthens the gluten network allowing it to resist tearing. Importantly though, above about 2.0% salt, that extensibility begins to drop. 2.3% is about 9% less extensible than 2.0%. 3.0% is even less.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #5 on: May 09, 2022, 11:05:08 PM »
PizzaboyTroy,

There is also a lot of information on the role of salt in pizza dough in the post at Reply 4 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48803.msg490049#msg490049

Peter

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #6 on: May 10, 2022, 12:21:24 AM »
Salt has a remarkable impact on extensibility. For instance, a dough made from 12.6% protein flour, with 2.0% salt is 46.1% more extensible than with 0% salt, because salt strengthens the gluten network allowing it to resist tearing. Importantly though, above about 2.0% salt, that extensibility begins to drop. 2.3% is about 9% less extensible than 2.0%. 3.0% is even less.
How are you calculating these figures? I've never heard of exact measurements of extensibility before.
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Offline FoodSim

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2022, 12:38:39 AM »
How are you calculating these figures? I've never heard of exact measurements of extensibility before.

It's called dough rheology. An entire field of study. Scientists test dough extensibility using an apparatus called an extensogram. You can see how one is used in the video linked below. The smaller rigs are generally of the Kieffer type seen in the video.

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Offline PizzaboyTroy

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #8 on: May 10, 2022, 10:28:01 AM »
That is why I love this forum. I constantly learn new things and wound up opening 20 different tabs, lost in a deep realm of reading endlessly, losing sleep in the process.  :-D It's such a great resource.

@iamdrrahul -- I forgot to reply. You cited the AT flour's high protein being why my dough wasn't as extensible as I wanted it to be after 24+ hours. Back in December, I made a quick dough, or emergency dough, in just a few hours with AT flour, and it was ridiculously extensible. It looks like the salt content is what caused the dough tightness here. I use the "PizzApp" on my phone. I don't know why I went with 3%. Looking forward to making some more pizza next week.

Offline PizzaboyTroy

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2022, 08:06:51 AM »
Hey guys, just an update!

Adjusted my recipe. Went down to 1.9-2% salt. I still have no idea how I rolled with 3% in the recipe listed in the OP. Not sure what happened.

Tried a 56% hydration dough. Outdoor pizza oven (700 degree cook). Mix of mozzarella, white cheddar and colby jack cheese because I had made a Detroit style pie as well and had some leftover. Boar's Head pepperoni.

Thanks again for the help!

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Offline Jersey Pie Boy

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2022, 10:14:54 AM »
Just something else to think about. 4 hours in balls may be too short for the dough to relax enough..12 is really good. Other thing is that lack of extensibility like that can be a sign of mild overfermentation..seems surprising but it's the word from Doc Tom..I've been there more than a couple of times. Likelier than slightly too much salt..I use 2.7 and have no issues, even with bromated AT (which I dearly miss here on the West)

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #11 on: May 21, 2022, 01:11:09 PM »
Hey guys, just an update!

Adjusted my recipe. Went down to 1.9-2% salt. I still have no idea how I rolled with 3% in the recipe listed in the OP. Not sure what happened.

Tried a 56% hydration dough. Outdoor pizza oven (700 degree cook). Mix of mozzarella, white cheddar and colby jack cheese because I had made a Detroit style pie as well and had some leftover. Boar's Head pepperoni.

Thanks again for the help!
Looks like you got good aeration. How was the dough to work with? Did the reduction in salt seem to help? And did you keep everything else the same?
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Offline QwertyJuan

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #12 on: May 21, 2022, 11:23:04 PM »
FWIW, I find 2.3% salt to be perfect as far as taste goes.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: Why didnít my pizza dough stretch more?
« Reply #13 on: May 21, 2022, 11:29:03 PM »
FWIW, I find 2.3% salt to be perfect as far as taste goes.
That's exactly where I stay at, regardless of hydration content. Once in a while I will experiment with a slightly lower or higher salt content, but I always end up coming back to 2.3%.
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