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Offline Maestro Palla

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How to use a spiral mixer
« on: July 23, 2020, 06:23:16 AM »
Hey guys,

I was wondering if there is any tutorial anywhere on the proper use of a spiral mixer like the Famag Griletta?

Questions are:

- how long to knead?
- how to know when the dough is kneaded enough?
- what speed?
- is taking breaks during the kneading process useful?
- order of the ingredient? Flour or water first? When to add salt?
- final dough temperature?

So here are some of my observations:

I put 1kg Caputo Rossa in my Griletta. I add 650 ml water with about 0.5g fresh Cake Yeast over a time period of one minute at speed level 4. After about 8 min, the dough comes togehter (pumpkin forming). I add salt. After 10 min total, I stop the process. The dough looks still not perfectly smooth. But after 24h RT ferment (18h bulk, 6 h ball), baking at 500 C in EffeUno P134H for around 60-80 sec, the pizzas are perfect. So here the result is: even though the dough looks not finished after kneading, the pizza are good.

How do you use your spiral mixer?

Cheers,
Palla
Instagram: gemello_veganpizzaberlin

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2020, 11:54:29 AM »
You use a spiral mixer just like any other dough mixer, add tempered water first, followed by the flour, salt, yeast, sugar (if used) and any other dry ingredients, mix at low speed just until all of the flour is whetted, then add the oil while mixing at low speed for 1-minute and finish mixing at second or high speed just until the dough takes on a smooth appearance.....you're done mixing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2020, 12:03:22 PM »
I have  the Famag IM5S and have found several methods that all work. My go to methods are

1)Double hydration - regardless of the final hydration level, this works very well in the Famag. I put flour and water in the fridge for 1-2 hours before mixing to keep temperatures down as this mixer tends to heat the dough quite a bit.

-Start with all the flour and yeast in the bowl and run the mixer for 1 minute to oxygenate the flour.
-Add in enough water to reach 55-60% hydration. Start the mixer on speed 0 and wait until there is no loose flour. I don't want to breathe in flour dust so this really helps. I let it run 4 minutes until the dough comes together into a very rough pumpkin shape.
-Turn speed up to either 5 or 10, depending on your comfort level. 10 brings the dough together faster but obviously there is more room for error at higher speeds.
-Slowly drizzle in the rest of the water and wait for the surface of the dough to look dry before adding more. Try to get it all in 3-8 increments. For example, if I started at 55% hydartion, and I'm ending up at 65% hydration with 1000g flour total, I have 100g water left, and I will put in 15-20g water at a time. It's ok if the dough breaks - wait for it to come back together and absorb the water before adding more.
-Finally, add the salt, and after 1 minute the oil if using.
-Stop mixer when the dough looks smooth and easily peels away from both the sides AND the bottom of the bowl OR the dough temperature hits 75F. Ideal dough temperature is 69F to 75F. Lower the better.
-Wait 5-10 minutes.
-Let the dough do one more spin in the bowl on speed 0. Once the dough gathers around the dough hook, stop and remove the dough.

2)Overnight autolyse. I learned about this method from another Famag owner and it works very well.

-Loosely hand mix all the formula's water and flour by hand in a bowl and stick it in the fridge overnight.
-Next morning, take it out and put it in the mixer as a whole. Add yeast or levain.
-Mix on speed 6 for 4-6 minutes, adding salt in the final minute,
-Mix until dough is smooth and peels away from both the sides AND bottom of the bowl.
-Dough usually comes out at a perfect 69F.
-After removing the dough from the mixer, do 2 sets of folds at 30 minute intervals, keeping the dough in the fridge between folds.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 12:23:58 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline HansB

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2020, 12:57:26 PM »
I have  the Famag IM5S and have found several methods that all work. My go to methods are

1)Double hydration - regardless of the final hydration level, this works very well in the Famag. I put flour and water in the fridge for 1-2 hours before mixing to keep temperatures down as this mixer tends to heat the dough quite a bit.

-Start with all the flour and yeast in the bowl and run the mixer for 1 minute to oxygenate the flour.
-Add in enough water to reach 55-60% hydration. Start the mixer on speed 0 and wait until there is no loose flour. I don't want to breathe in flour dust so this really helps. I let it run 4 minutes until the dough comes together into a very rough pumpkin shape.
-Turn speed up to either 5 or 10, depending on your comfort level. 10 brings the dough together faster but obviously there is more room for error at higher speeds.
-Slowly drizzle in the rest of the water and wait for the surface of the dough to look dry before adding more. Try to get it all in 3-8 increments. For example, if I started at 55% hydartion, and I'm ending up at 65% hydration with 1000g flour total, I have 100g water left, and I will put in 15-20g water at a time. It's ok if the dough breaks - wait for it to come back together and absorb the water before adding more.
-Finally, add the salt, and after 1 minute the oil if using.
-Stop mixer when the dough looks smooth and easily peels away from both the sides AND the bottom of the bowl OR the dough temperature hits 75F. Ideal dough temperature is 69F to 75F. Lower the better.
-Wait 5-10 minutes.
-Let the dough do one more spin in the bowl on speed 0. Once the dough gathers around the dough hook, stop and remove the dough.

2)Overnight autolyse. I learned about this method from another Famag owner and it works very well.

-Loosely hand mix all the formula's water and flour by hand in a bowl and stick it in the fridge overnight.
-Next morning, take it out and put it in the mixer as a whole. Add yeast or levain.
-Mix on speed 6 for 4-6 minutes, adding salt in the final minute,
-Mix until dough is smooth and peels away from both the sides AND bottom of the bowl.
-Dough usually comes out at a perfect 69F.
-After removing the dough from the mixer, do 2 sets of folds at 30 minute intervals, keeping the dough in the fridge between folds.

Is "oxygenating the flour" a real thing?

If I had to do all of the above to make a dough ball, I'd use the mixer as a boat anchor.

I would do as Tom suggested!
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2020, 01:48:02 PM »
Hans, do you own a spiral mixer?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 02:01:51 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2020, 03:40:00 PM »
I have  the Famag IM5S and have found several methods that all work. My go to methods are

1)Double hydration - regardless of the final hydration level, this works very well in the Famag. I put flour and water in the fridge for 1-2 hours before mixing to keep temperatures down as this mixer tends to heat the dough quite a bit.

-Start with all the flour and yeast in the bowl and run the mixer for 1 minute to oxygenate the flour.
-Add in enough water to reach 55-60% hydration. Start the mixer on speed 0 and wait until there is no loose flour. I don't want to breathe in flour dust so this really helps. I let it run 4 minutes until the dough comes together into a very rough pumpkin shape.
-Turn speed up to either 5 or 10, depending on your comfort level. 10 brings the dough together faster but obviously there is more room for error at higher speeds.
-Slowly drizzle in the rest of the water and wait for the surface of the dough to look dry before adding more. Try to get it all in 3-8 increments. For example, if I started at 55% hydartion, and I'm ending up at 65% hydration with 1000g flour total, I have 100g water left, and I will put in 15-20g water at a time. It's ok if the dough breaks - wait for it to come back together and absorb the water before adding more.
-Finally, add the salt, and after 1 minute the oil if using.
-Stop mixer when the dough looks smooth and easily peels away from both the sides AND the bottom of the bowl OR the dough temperature hits 75F. Ideal dough temperature is 69F to 75F. Lower the better.
-Wait 5-10 minutes.
-Let the dough do one more spin in the bowl on speed 0. Once the dough gathers around the dough hook, stop and remove the dough.

2)Overnight autolyse. I learned about this method from another Famag owner and it works very well.

-Loosely hand mix all the formula's water and flour by hand in a bowl and stick it in the fridge overnight.
-Next morning, take it out and put it in the mixer as a whole. Add yeast or levain.
-Mix on speed 6 for 4-6 minutes, adding salt in the final minute,
-Mix until dough is smooth and peels away from both the sides AND bottom of the bowl.
-Dough usually comes out at a perfect 69F.
-After removing the dough from the mixer, do 2 sets of folds at 30 minute intervals, keeping the dough in the fridge between folds.

Doouball-
As someone that flirts with the idea of getting a spiral mixer, this might not mean to be one of the worst reviews of a spiral mixer I have read, but it kind of is. I thought a spiral mixer was supposed to heat the dough a minimal amount. And in the second method, you are mixing the flour and water by hand, which seems to defeat the purpose of the mixer. Are you happy with the mixer?

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2020, 03:42:41 PM »
Oxygenate the flour? You're pulling my leg, right? :-D :-D :-D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2020, 04:23:06 PM »
Doouball-
As someone that flirts with the idea of getting a spiral mixer, this might not mean to be one of the worst reviews of a spiral mixer I have read, but it kind of is. I thought a spiral mixer was supposed to heat the dough a minimal amount. And in the second method, you are mixing the flour and water by hand, which seems to defeat the purpose of the mixer. Are you happy with the mixer?

It's not a perfect mixer but I'm happy with it. I bought it over a year ago when it was the only small spiral mixer available in the US with a tilting head for easy cleaning and a 110v plug. It has its particularities but once I learned how to work with it, all of my best doughs are made in it. I can make good dough completely by hand or in a KitchenAid, but the Famag produces better, more consistent results. For some examples, check out the pics I post in the Pizza Canotto with Biga thread. I make a lot of dough with biga and I wouldn't even think about mixing that type of dough by hand. I have heard that Sunmix makes a better small mixer for pizza dough but it wasn't available at the time I bought.

Hand mixing the autolyse takes 3 minutes and the cleanup takes 30 seconds. It cuts about 7 minutes off the mixing time the following day and means that even at 75-80% hydrations, I don't have to do the double hydration method. It also saves time the following day because all the flour and water are already accounted for. All I need is to measure yeast/levain and salt and start mixing. I like this method a lot.

All spiral mixers heat up the dough, some more than others. It's standard practice to use ice cold water to compensate. I chill both the water and flour just for insurance - chilling just the water is often enough.

Oxygenate the flour? You're pulling my leg, right? :-D :-D :-D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

You laugh but I didn't invent this term - I've heard Italian pizza makers talk about oxygenating the flour in the context of running the spiral mixer with flour + yeast only. Check out 1:20s in this video as an example



To me, the main benefit is breaking up any clumps in the flour and evenly distributing the dry ingredients, which could be a mix of flours, malt and dry yeast. This step is optional and I sometimes skip it.

Guys, I'm not saying that my methods are the best. Tom's way is excellent I'm sure.
The methods I describe work very well for me and came after 1.5 years of trial and error with the Famag IM-5S which is the mixer brought up by the OP. Feel free to disregard if you don't find these suggestions helpful.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 04:26:16 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline Jon in Albany

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2020, 04:28:27 PM »

Hand mixing the autolyse takes 3 minutes and the cleanup takes 30 seconds. It cuts about 7 minutes off the mixing time the following day and means that even at 75-80% hydrations, I don't have to do the double hydration method. It also saves time the following day because all the flour and water are already accounted for. All I need is to measure yeast/levain and salt and start mixing. I like this method a lot.

I see. Thanks. I was thinking in terms of a larger amount of flour which would be a bigger hassle.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2020, 05:41:04 PM »
Ah ok. Maybe I should have made myself more clear. The overnight autolyse method is only used when making small batches or when making doughs with high percentages of whole wheat.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 05:47:05 PM by DoouBall »
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2020, 05:51:47 PM »
I take another approach.

For 60-65% hydration Neapolitan I throw it all in the mixer then let it run at 4-5 minutes at the lowest speed.  The dough is not completely smooth when I remove it from the mixer, and the gluten strands are very short.  Though after an hour of bulk fermentation it passes a window pane test and makes beautiful balls.

I keep meaning to make more tests starting with water, salt, and yeast, slowly adding the flour, but the few times I've done that I haven't really noticed any benefits.

To throw it all in the bowl and run it for 4 minutes is just too easy! :D

For higher hydration dough or rich doughs with eggs, butter, etc I do run it for longer slowly adding the ingredients.

IMO a spiral mixer is a godsend for bakers, you can probably make any kind of dough in it!  If you buy one you'll never need to buy something else, it will serve for anything that you want to do dough wise..

I don't think it heats the dough too much, but of course if the ambient temperature is high, you don't start with cold ingredients, and you run it for 15-20 minutes, the dough is going to heat up..
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2020, 06:57:13 PM »
For 60-65% hydration Neapolitan I throw it all in the mixer then let it run at 4-5 minutes at the lowest speed.  The dough is not completely smooth when I remove it from the mixer, and the gluten strands are very short.  Though after an hour of bulk fermentation it passes a window pane test and makes beautiful balls.

Jack, I do have a hunch that 4-5 minutes in your Sunmix develops the dough further along than the same time in the Famag. If you ever get a chance, I'd love to see a video of how your dough looks when you take it out after such a short time. Even a photo of what the dough looks like at the end of that time would be great. 

After 4 minutes in the Famag on lowest speed (100rpm), dough looks completely undeveloped - a lumpy shaggy mess just starting to come together into a very rough pumpkin.

Thanks!
Alex

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Offline theppgcowboy

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2020, 10:28:38 PM »
Mix time is 5 minutes at most. Spiral mixers are nice, love then feel of the dough they produce.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2020, 10:49:04 PM by theppgcowboy »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2020, 06:54:29 AM »
I'll try to remember next time I make Neapolitan dough.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline Quebert

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2020, 07:21:25 AM »
It's not a perfect mixer but I'm happy with it. I bought it over a year ago when it was the only small spiral mixer available in the US with a tilting head for easy cleaning and a 110v plug. It has its particularities but once I learned how to work with it, all of my best doughs are made in it. I can make good dough completely by hand or in a KitchenAid, but the Famag produces better, more consistent results. For some examples, check out the pics I post in the Pizza Canotto with Biga thread. I make a lot of dough with biga and I wouldn't even think about mixing that type of dough by hand. I have heard that Sunmix makes a better small mixer for pizza dough but it wasn't available at the time I bought.

Hand mixing the autolyse takes 3 minutes and the cleanup takes 30 seconds. It cuts about 7 minutes off the mixing time the following day and means that even at 75-80% hydrations, I don't have to do the double hydration method. It also saves time the following day because all the flour and water are already accounted for. All I need is to measure yeast/levain and salt and start mixing. I like this method a lot.

All spiral mixers heat up the dough, some more than others. It's standard practice to use ice cold water to compensate. I chill both the water and flour just for insurance - chilling just the water is often enough.

You laugh but I didn't invent this term - I've heard Italian pizza makers talk about oxygenating the flour in the context of running the spiral mixer with flour + yeast only. Check out 1:20s in this video as an example



To me, the main benefit is breaking up any clumps in the flour and evenly distributing the dry ingredients, which could be a mix of flours, malt and dry yeast. This step is optional and I sometimes skip it.

Guys, I'm not saying that my methods are the best. Tom's way is excellent I'm sure.
The methods I describe work very well for me and came after 1.5 years of trial and error with the Famag IM-5S which is the mixer brought up by the OP. Feel free to disregard if you don't find these suggestions helpful.

I appreciate the detailed breakdown of your process. I'm pondering starting with Biga and know I'd need a spiral mixer to do it well. I'm looking closely at the Famag, your write up has good information.

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Offline scott r

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2020, 10:01:33 AM »
I personally love that the Famag has the ability to move so slowly.   For high hydaration doughs my mix times are long and at the end of the mix I use high speeds, but if im doing something in the mid 50's or 60's I really love the extra time it gives the flour to hydrate during the mix. A slower mix also gives you a larger window of time to stop it at the perfect amount of gluten development.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2020, 11:48:51 AM »
I personally love that the Famag has the ability to move so slowly.   For high hydaration doughs my mix times are long and at the end of the mix I use high speeds, but if im doing something in the mid 50's or 60's I really love the extra time it gives the flour to hydrate during the mix. A slower mix also gives you a larger window of time to stop it at the perfect amount of gluten development.

Good points Scott. I think at the end of the day, mixers are a great tool to make dough, but they have a learning curve and while there are general rules in how they can be used, each one has its own peculiarities. I remember so many threads of people frustrated with how to use Ankarsum and Bosch mixers and so many of your helpful tips. I think it's possible to make fantastic dough in almost any mixer - it's just a matter of how.
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2020, 12:34:53 PM »
I suspect that is true.

Thinking about it, I honestly wouldn't expect there to be great difference between a Famag or a Sunmix, they're both spiral mixers so ought to produce dough more or less the same..  Of course there are differences between spiral mixers, but more along the line of multiple speeds, reversing, ratio of turning between spiral and the bowl, timers, removable bowl, etc.

Who knows maybe I'm using mine wrong, and I could get a better result using another method.  But this is part of the fun and journey, always finding better ways of doing things, and getting better results.
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #18 on: July 24, 2020, 04:16:15 PM »
Jack, I don't think you're using it wrong. Different methods simply lead to different results.

What you're doing is what's referred to as a short mix by Advanced Bread and Pastry by Michael Suas, one of the most comprehensive books on bread making I have ever read. The result is a creamy crumb, reduced volume, highly irregular crumb and very complex flavor from a long initial fermentation. My understanding is that short mixes benefit greatly from a long bulk fermentation along with multiple sets of folds for reinforcement of the gluten structure. The definition includes a maximum of 600 revolutions at 1st speed of 100rpm.

What I'm doing is more what bakers refer to as an improved mix (which doesn't necessarily make it better), because it results in higher gluten development upfront. It's defined by the book Advanced Bread and Pastry as about 4-5 minutes in 1st speed and 5 minutes in second speed with 1000 revolutions in second speed at 200rpm. The result is stronger dough with higher volume while retaining some but not all of the creamy crumb, irregular crumb and complex flavor. One of the things I like best about this is that folding the dough becomes optional. I usually give it only one set of folds for pizza and 1-2 sets for bread and I'm good.

The final form of mixing which is not much discussed in pizza is the intensive mix resulting in maximum volume, tight regular crumb and more bland flavor as a result of aggressive mixing. This is defined by 5 minutes in 1st speed and 8 minutes in second with 1600 revolutions in second speed (200rpm). This is the kind of mix you typically see in Pan De Mie or Japanese Milk Bread as well as other sandwich breads.
« Last Edit: July 24, 2020, 04:23:27 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2020, 06:25:42 AM »
Yes I know those definitions, but they haven't been all that useful for me.  I find that if I'm making higher hydration bread dough I'd better mix the crap out of the dough, or I'll have a mess at my hands.

For Neapolitan dough 5 minutes at 68 rpms, comes out at 340 revolutions.  I also don't do any folding on the dough, just bulk fermentation followed by the ball making and final fermentation.

I need to make more tries starting from water/salt/yeast and slowly adding the flour.  Also more tests at higher speeds.  Maybe someday, there are so many things to try and not enough time to do it all, and unfortunately sometimes the result isn't obvious either.  I think pizza making is probably an area where there's really no substitute for making lots of pizza.

Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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