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Author Topic: How to use a spiral mixer  (Read 5605 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2020, 06:18:47 PM »
Hereís a photo of a bread made today with the overnight autolyse method I mentioned earlier in the thread. 77% bread flour, 21% spelt and 3% rye. 
« Last Edit: July 25, 2020, 06:26:14 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline 2ndtimearound

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #21 on: July 27, 2020, 08:40:04 AM »
I have a Famag im8s and I've tried all the internet methods and just got confused and frustrated.

For NP style 62-64% hydro using SD starter. I start with all the RT water and dissolve the salt. Then I whisk in my starter and froth it up. to that add all of the flour and let it mix on low speed until it comes together about 2-3 mins. once the bulb forms I turn it up to mid speed and let it mix until smooth. apox 4-5 mins more. I don't temp the dough anymore since I bulk 24 hrs/ball 24 hrs it in my 62 degree cellar.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #22 on: July 27, 2020, 04:00:22 PM »
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #23 on: July 27, 2020, 05:06:35 PM »
Thanks Jack! Very nicely done. Looking at your video, I do think that the Sunmix does a much better job than the Famag in a short time at such a low speed. I also noticed that your dough wasn't anywhere near windowpane when you removed it from the mixer. It might be worth experimenting to see what happens if you get closer to windowpane before removing from mixer. Will you like the results more or less?
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline amolapizza

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #24 on: July 27, 2020, 05:15:29 PM »
I think developing the gluten more tends to increase the chewiness, but I'm not 100% sure about it..

After the one hour bulk it does pass a basic window pane, maybe not ultra thin but the gluten has definitely developed all by itself.  I'm sorry that it doesn't show so well in the video, I thought it would. :)

Strange, I would have imagined spiral mixers to develop dough more or less the same..  But what do I know.. :D  Maybe it's a question of dough vs bowl size, the ratio of spiral vs bowl rotation, the distance to the breaker bar, etc..
Jack

Effeuno P134H (500C), Biscotto Fornace Saputo, Sunmix Sun6, Caputo Pizzeria, Caputo Saccorosso, Mutti Pelati.

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Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #25 on: July 27, 2020, 05:38:23 PM »
Strange, I would have imagined spiral mixers to develop dough more or less the same..  But what do I know.. :D  Maybe it's a question of dough vs bowl size, the ratio of spiral vs bowl rotation, the distance to the breaker bar, etc..

Yes I think all those things matter.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline joe1515

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2020, 09:43:07 AM »
You use a spiral mixer just like any other dough mixer, add tempered water first, followed by the flour, salt, yeast, sugar (if used) and any other dry ingredients, mix at low speed just until all of the flour is whetted, then add the oil while mixing at low speed for 1-minute and finish mixing at second or high speed just until the dough takes on a smooth appearance.....you're done mixing.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Interesting, you recommend water first then slowly add the flour. I always thought that was the correct, buy most videos I have been watching say flour first then add in water?

Offline billg

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #27 on: November 19, 2020, 06:22:39 PM »
I see more videos of flour in first.  Then the yeast is added and the mixer starts on low for a few minutes.  Then approximately 55% of the water is added and mixed for a minute or two gradually adding more water as the flour hydrates.  Once the pumpkin starts to form s the salt is added and mixed at higher speeds for another minute or 2.  Then the dough seems ready.  I have experimented with both methods and find flour first works best in spiral mixers.  In my Ankarsrum it's the opposite.

Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #28 on: November 19, 2020, 10:43:55 PM »
Typical methods for using spiral mixer seem to be different in the US vs Italy.

In the US, the method pioneered by Tom Lehman is quite popular - it works very well IMHO because the majority of pizza operators in the US use hydrations of 65% or lower and make medium to large batches of dough. Under these conditions, going water in first works well and reduces total mixing time as Tom mentioned. Also, and I'm only guessing here, this method might work better for older or poor performing mixers which have a tendency to leave some of the flour on the bottom of the bowl if you put flour first. Planetary mixers like KitchenAid have this problem so bread makers like Richard Bertinet recommend going water in first to avoid the issue. Modern spirals really don't have this issue, but I imagine some older or lower end spirals might. If you start with the water, there is practically no chance of any flour remaining on the bottom after mixing.

In Italy, hydrations for pizza dough can go all the way to 80%+ for styles like Pizza in Pala or Pizza in Teglia. For higher hydrations, it makes more sense to start with the flour and slowly add water to the flour, waiting for the water to be absorbed before adding more.  If you put 80% hydration of water in first, you will end up with a pancake batter and the dough will never stiffen - Italians call this "non-legato" (not tied). The idea here is to build the gluten at 55-60% hydration and then add water slowly, while maintaining the already built gluten network. I think that the flour first method is most popular in Italy among other reasons because it works for all styles, starting with the 55% hydration for Tonda Romana all the way to 80%+ hydrations of Pizza in Teglia. Another reason is that the modern method is to use a fixed amount of flour such as 1000g but adjusting the water as needed. Therefore, it makes sense to start by putting the flour in first because it is a constant.

Both methods work, and the batch size and specific spiral mixer also play a role. Some mixers work better for water in first - the pumpkin forms sooner. Some spiral mixers do not work well with water in first with small batches. I would try both methods and see which works better for your mixer and your specific dough.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:23:43 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline Icelandr

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #29 on: November 19, 2020, 11:21:55 PM »
I am not sure with batches of dough at my level, 2-8 balls it matters a damn. It is in the mixer, in my case a kitchen aid with a dough hook for maybe 5-10 minutes of its 24 hour process from dry to dough.  I add all the flour, add the salt then add the sourdough water combination and mix, now varying between stir and  . . Gasp, 2 until it leaves the bowl. A 10 minute rest for a glass of wine, then stretch and fold rest 10 minutes repeated 3-5 times, based on wine and dinner approaching. I donít see, in my case the weakest point being dough prep. But if all other components are covered, hydration, temperature and the vagaries of the oven all should be well. Love to play with a spiral mixer, but for 2-8 balls?
Greg
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #30 on: November 19, 2020, 11:34:17 PM »
I am not sure with batches of dough at my level, 2-8 balls it matters a damn. It is in the mixer, in my case a kitchen aid with a dough hook for maybe 5-10 minutes of its 24 hour process from dry to dough.  I add all the flour, add the salt then add the sourdough water combination and mix, now varying between stir and  . . Gasp, 2 until it leaves the bowl. A 10 minute rest for a glass of wine, then stretch and fold rest 10 minutes repeated 3-5 times, based on wine and dinner approaching. I donít see, in my case the weakest point being dough prep. But if all other components are covered, hydration, temperature and the vagaries of the oven all should be well. Love to play with a spiral mixer, but for 2-8 balls?

You definitely don't need a spiral mixer. The question is...do you want one?

For me, the big benefit of the spiral is that I can mix the dough, throw it on the counter, clean the mixer in 1-2 minutes, give the dough one set of folds just to make it round and I'm done. There is no need for multiple sets of stretch folds with Neapolitan dough coming off a spiral mixer.

With the KitchenAid, you have to mix it first - and it usually doesn't come out smooth. Wait, fold, wait, fold, wait, fold and then you're done. Of course, you can also mix to smooth dough in the KitchenAid, but in my experience, undermixing Neapolitan dough in the KitchenAid makes for better results.

Anyway, if you're happy with your mixer and process, no need to switch.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2020, 11:40:34 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

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Offline ARenko

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #31 on: October 25, 2021, 11:40:41 AM »
This video may be useful to some (also note the mixing of flour alone like Doouball mentioned)...


Offline DoouBall

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #32 on: October 25, 2021, 06:15:56 PM »
This video may be useful to some (also note the mixing of flour alone like Doouball mentioned)...



Thanks for posting ARenko. I know Marco very well as we've taken some courses together and chat regularly. He has a very strong understanding of pizza. He's also a professional Italia wood and gas burning oven builder based in India.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline ARenko

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #33 on: October 25, 2021, 07:30:57 PM »
Thanks for posting ARenko. I know Marco very well as we've taken some courses together and chat regularly. He has a very strong understanding of pizza. He's also a professional Italia wood and gas burning oven builder based in India.
No problem.  I enjoy his youtube videos.  I thought it was very informative (seeing the mixing process, but also his Q&A afterwards) and it finally got me off my a$$ to get a spiral mixer (that and Chau's thread).  Been meaining to for a while and wish I didn't wait since they've all gone up in price lately due to supply chain issues/ inflation/ pandemic/ whatever.  Xmas present to myself.  Hope to contribute to your Biga thread once I get it.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2021, 07:49:15 PM by ARenko »

Offline scott r

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #34 on: October 25, 2021, 08:56:57 PM »
He is awesome.. .what a great video!

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Offline billg

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Re: How to use a spiral mixer
« Reply #35 on: October 26, 2021, 09:03:54 PM »
 ^^^

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