I'm normally a 100% whole grain pizza maker, but every now and again I splurge at Mellow Mushroom. They have a thicker American/California type crust which is chewy, airy, and has a unique tang to it they attribute to "spring water dough". Does anyone here have any stories or experiences to share, either in working there, trying their pries, or figuring out what their recipes are? I do know they bake the pies with Parmesan cheese on the crust, which gives it a great flavor. I'm assuming they use filtered water as their "spring water", but I swear there is some abnormal ingredient which gives the pies a zing. What do you guys think?
I work at the one in Chattanooga
Actually, the crust is basted with garlic butter and sprinkled with Parmesan cheese after it is baked.
I'm pretty sure molassas is the answer, along with garlic-butter around the crust and sprinkled parm. I've eaten a lot of Mellow pizza, along with my wife, and we both think we've found the forumla. My daughter is back from college this weekend. During the last visit, she was marginally-amused with the honey-based attempt. I think we'll see three thumbs up by Sunday.
Bob is more of a purist – dough, sauce, and cheese. Everyone else is using pizza as an “edible plate” for ingredients. I’ve had good fun over the last year or so with Bob and even talked him into trying a mushroom pizza one time. There is some chance that I will be able to turn him to the dark side. Hopefully Bob will be around when you are in town so you can try both styles.
I recently tried Mellow Mushroom for the first time in Gainesville, Ga. I doubt I'll be giving it a second chance. As per usual, it didn't come close to what I turn out at home. No better, no worse than the average pizza joint as far as I'm concerned. Art
Here in the Tampa area, Dave and Bob were messing around with this and they locked in on it pretty good. I don't know if they ever posted the recipe/process but I'll see what I can dig up :)
As a veteran of many reverse engineering and cloning projects, I think that, absent insider information, you cannot realistically reverse engineer and clone a commercial dough/pizza in a reasonable time frame without numbers.
I was just sayin that I don't know if I'm capable of truly reverse engineering this sucker, though it does sound like fun.
Is it the case that without detailed nutritional information we can't really make progress outside of trial and error subjectivity?
I'd be willing to get an MM pie for laboratory purposes but sounds like it wouldn't do a whole lot to help the cause without knowing more about what's in the thing.
mellow sells dough balls...small is $3 and medium $4. The dough actually comes in balled and frozen, in one day batches. No effort is put in to keeping them at a consistant temp throughout the day as well...
She quoted prices of $4 for small, $6 for medium, and $8 for large.
:o :o :o :o
$8 for a dough ball?!? What the...
I did call my local MM and at first the girl was like "hmmm I don't think so" but she went and asked and sure enough, they do sell the dough.
She quoted prices of $4 for small, $6 for medium, and $8 for large. She said they are kept at room temp, as you stated.
I tried to get a little more info out of her by asking if the dough they use in the restaurant is made fresh or arrives frozen in balls. She said "a little of both." I didn't want to press the issue so left it at that.
Pete - where does this put us for our reverse engineering project? I would think this is a quantum leap forward! Maybe I could get some ingredient/nutritional info when purchasing a ball . ..
So, maybe MM does use a commissary business model. That would allow them to make and ship both frozen and fresh dough balls to their stores.
In the interest of pizza science, there are two nutritional guides that I have seen. How accurate or where they came from I don't know.
1) http://www.myfitnesspal.com/nutrition-facts-calories/mellow-mushroom (http://www.myfitnesspal.com/nutrition-facts-calories/mellow-mushroom)
2) http://www.livestrong.com/article/364574-mellow-mushroom-nutrition-guide/?utm_source=popup&utm_medium=1 (http://www.livestrong.com/article/364574-mellow-mushroom-nutrition-guide/?utm_source=popup&utm_medium=1)
I feel like we're really getting some great info but not really sure how we get at the dough formulation. I guess other than what we feel are the sure-fire ingredients - HG Flour, Wheat Germ, Molasses, yeast, oil, salt - sans nutrition info or insider info, all we can do is trial and error. . .?
When the pizza arrived, I approached it as though I was performing an autopsy. I examined all of the physical, coloration and textural characteristics of the pizza, and I smelled and tore apart and tugged and stretched the crust and crumb, and tasted all of the components, isolating them for taste purposes as much as I could. Based on the notes I took, here is my critique.
Peter
Note: The dough ball information other than cost given above turns out to be incorrect. For details and the correct information, see Reply 42 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151482.html#msg151482.
Norma,
There is a real advantage to being at a pizza place in person. But my visit also told me that you have to be careful about what employees tell you. I think sometime they try too hard to please you with an answer, especially if you are a customer or prospective customer, and they end up telling you things with sincerity but that are wrong. I had hoped to get more information on the flour but I knew that it would be fruitless to ask the workers at the MM store because the answer is back in the Atlanta commissary. That is the benefit of a commissary business model. The workers in the stores are just pizza assemblers. I remember when my server first asked the workers making the pizzas if they knew the weights of the different dough balls and they just looked at each other and said Huh? Only one worker ventured to answer and he was wrong.
Peter
Norma,
As I understand it, the Prairie Dancer flour already has the wheat germ in it but not the bran.
BTW, I spoke with a technical person from Pendleton Mills today on another matter and, while I had his attention, I asked him how one would normally produce a flour with the wheat germ already in it. He said that in the Pendleton mill both the bran and wheat germ are separated from the fllour and sold separately. He said that the wheat germ would be in flat fragments and one would perhaps want to run it through another mill to make it into more of a powder. When I mentioned the Prairie Dancer flour, he said that their method of milling would also work but might require other steps (which we didn't get into). He also mentioned that flour with wheat germ already in it is prone to spoilage because of the oil going rancid, especially over time and in warm climates. He agreed that keeping the wheat germ separate and refrigerating it would give the end user better control over the final product.
Peter
No recipes or formulas? Disappointing.
Peter,
Amazing contribution to the MM thread. Really good work.
Dave
I look forward to your results.
Peter
Can you tell me whether the crust was sweeter than a typical MM crust that you have had in the past?Unfortunately I can't say with a lot of certainty. My memory does seem to tell me yes. A problem in this process is that I haven't made it to a MM store in several months. It's high on our to-do list, and clearly would help with this whole process. While I may tinker with my own doughs in the meantime, it may be best to wait to post more formulas here until I can actually have more of a comparison.
Also, you might want to use cornmeal as your bench flour since that is what MM uses in its stores and contributes to the taste and texture of the crust.Good point. I will definitely do that.
When do you want to make the next clone MM dough and pizza? I assume that it would be 14".My mind has been racing with what kinds of tweaks I want to make next, one of which is a longer fermentation. The PJ Clone doughs I have made the most of and with the most success have been 5-day doughs (I believe your original PJ Clone), so I was considering making one Tuesday night for use this coming Sunday night. In that case of course I'd have to reduce the yeast, but I will also attempt your suggestions of lowering the hydration and oil and increasing the salt and germ.
| Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (55%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%): Molasses (4.5%): Total (166.1%): | 311.53 g | 10.99 oz | 0.69 lbs 171.34 g | 6.04 oz | 0.38 lbs 1.87 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 6.23 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 12.46 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp 14.02 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.02 tsp | 0.67 tbsp 517.44 g | 18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118567 |
| Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (55%): IDY (0.14%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%): Molasses (4.5%): Total (165.64%): | 312.39 g | 11.02 oz | 0.69 lbs 171.81 g | 6.06 oz | 0.38 lbs 0.44 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.15 tsp | 0.05 tbsp 6.25 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 12.5 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp 14.06 g | 0.5 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.03 tsp | 0.68 tbsp 517.44 g | 18.25 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118567 |
Can't wait to try these doughs. Pete - 2 questions. Can I use canola or EVOO instead of soybean oil? Also, do I brush the butter/parm on the crust before it bakes or after? I'm going to back at 550 in my bakers pride P44 which should be interesting to see the bake time.
Is there anything from a reconnaissance perspective that I can/should do to benefit our experiment?
Pls time how long they bake a pie and if they rotate etc during the bake. Also ask bake temp. Thx!
I wanted to ask you a question to see if you think the ConAgra Mills Ultragrain flour http://www.conagramills.com/our_products/ultragrain.jsp might be able to used with a high gluten flour (KASL) to use in one of the formulas you set-forth? I had purchased a small bag of the Ultragrain awhile ago at the Country Store. I think the Ultragrain does include some Vitamin E and some bran in the Ultragrain flour.
Norma
Norma,
I have not seen the specs for the Ultragrain flour but I would not consider it the best way to juice up high-gluten flour for purposes of emulating an MM dough. As a whole wheat flour, adding Ultragrain flour to KASL or any other high-gluten flour would increase the wheat germ and bran content and would add some Vitamin E (simply because Vitamin E is naturally present in the Utlragrain flour), but to get to the level of wheat germ that I think is present in the MM dough, you would perhaps have to add too much Ultragrain flour. I don't know the protein content of the Ultragrain flour but if it is less than say, 14%, it might lower the total protein content of the blend and take it out of the high-gluten category. From all of the MM-related videos I have seen, and the way that the MM dough handles on the bench and when opened up and tossed and spun, there has to be a lot of gluten in the flour blend that MM uses. For now, unless you just want to play around with the Ultragrain flour in a test, I think the better way to proceed is to use Vitamin-E enriched toasted wheat germ along with the high-gluten flour.
Peter
Biz,I plan to go this coming Tuesday, so I will try my best to ask this and maybe other questions.
Perhaps during your MM store visit you can ask what size Spoodle is used to make a given size pizza. I have a Spoodle type device, with a bowl capacity of 3 ounces, and the size is stated on the device, both in ounces and milliliters.
Cool, Norma!! Glad to have a partner in crime!
I wanted to post some pics too. The first are of my current 18.25oz (formula weight) dough ball following the formula at reply 67. The flecks of germ are visible. The dough is 22 hours old.
The second pic is a before and after, showing the particle size following my attempt to grind the germ in a ceramic burr grinder. I used the finest setting I could get it to. It did make a difference as I think you can see, but at the end there were still some larger, darker flakes (which to me actually resemble Bran).
Shame you don't have an MM nearby, but at least your wallet will be better off . .it's pricey!
I did find a portion controller in the 8-ounce size with a black handle but the description of the length of the controller was unclear. I have asked for clarification and will report back if my inquiry is answered.
1. What was the brand of the high-gluten organic flour you used?I had to call the store to find out. . . it's Heartland Mills. Upon checking their website and calling them, I discovered that they now call this flour "Strong Bread" and it only has a 12.5% protein content. So a big change from my first attempt using KASL. I don't think I'll use this flour for pizza again, at least while I still have some KASL (which I don't know if I can continue to keep around).
2. Did you use the normal dough making cycle of your Zo or was it programmed to do only mixing and kneading?I did not use the normal dough course. I used the "homemade" course which allows you to turn on and off each individual cycle. . .I have it set only to "KNEAD" for 15 minutes. I've been using this method for months with all my pizza doughs with no problems. My only thing is that I don't know how the Zo mixing times compare to standard stand mixer times.
3. Was there a reason why you did not form a distinct rim on the skin, given that that is a feature that is employed by MM?I actually didn't realize MM formed a rim on the skin. For some reason I've always felt shame for doing so. Not sure where I got the idea but I've always felt that this was a novice's shortcut. So this time I thought I would not form a rim to see what kind of spring I could get on the rim just from the oven. I much prefer the results when I do form a rim on the skin so maybe I'll keep doing that.
4. What type and brand of oven are you using and on which oven rack position did you bake the pizza before moving it up to the broiler area?I have a piece of junk electric Hotpoint oven which until very recently only had 1 oven rack! I heated the stone for 45 mins on the absolute lowest position then baked it on the second-to-lowest rack. I don't think I actually moved it up to the broiler - I just turned the broiler on for about a minute.
5. Did you bake the pizza directly on the pizza stone?Yes indeed! Used cornmeal on the peel and slid the sucker right on there. BTW, I'm using an Emile Henry "Flame" 14'' Pizza Stone.
6. Did you detect sweetness in the finished crust?No, but I think that's because the rim was so thin and overcooked to boot, so the crust basically tasted like a cracker.
7. Do you plan to buy a dough ball on your planned visit to an MM store tomorrow?I'm considering it but I don't know what I'd do with it. Meaning, I don't know how long it would need to ferment if any, etc, etc. But it would be quite interesting to observe the color and texture.
I wanted to ask you a question how you decided on such a high oil amount for the M&M clone formulas? The formulas contained almost as much oil as I used in the formula for the NJ Boardwalk thread. Do you think the amount of oil with the lower hydration has anything to do with how much oven spring the pizza will have? I wonder about oil amount when I mixed the dough. The dough today is fermenting about the same as my last attempt at a Mack’s pizza. Did you decide on the oil amount from the Papa John’s thread?
Norma,
What I was trying to do is to get some “lift” into the MM clone dough so that it would have a decent oven spring despite what I concluded was a fairly low hydration value. I came to that conclusion from watching videos like the one at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7-oxqmv7L8&feature=related and also from my examination of the crust of the MM pizza that I had during my recent visit to the MM store on Jacksonville Beach, FL that led me to conclude that the MM dough was on the dense side, not light, soft and billowy, despite the bulbous rim.
The amount of oil I set forth in the proposed MM clone dough formulation was an estimated guess, given that we have no information on the amounts of any of the ingredients used to make a real MM dough. If there were published Nutrition Facts for the MM pizzas, then that might have helped determine how much oil and sugar (molasses) to use. But, alas, that information does not exist. However, the reason and purpose for using the amount of oil I proposed in the MM dough clone formulation are as I discussed in Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7915.msg67933/topicseen.html#msg67933. I was also counting on the oil to get increased volume/height in the dough and finished crust, just as Tom Lehmann mentioned in one of his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=50068#p50068.
Since molasses is used instead of sucrose (table sugar), I was also relying on the hygroscopic and rheological attributes and characteristics of the molasses to retain moisture in the dough while improving the extensibility of the dough despite the relatively low nominal hydration value. I was trying to keep the amount of molasses at a level to provide a noticeable sweetness in the finished crust and crumb while adequately feeding the yeast and providing a tan color to the dough and finished crust but not so much as to cause the bottom of the crust to prematurely turn brown or even burn when baked on the hot pizza stone. The net effect of using the combination of the oil and molasses is to produce a more tender and softer crumb, but not as much as a Papa John’s clone pizza.
Until Biz responds to my recent post on his recent results, I will not know whether the dough formulation I proposed has the right set of values for the different ingredients. Of course, your results should also be instructive. Your test will also be important given that you will be using your deck oven.
Peter
Maybe Biz can comment on if he thinks a Mushroom Mellow pizza tastes anything like a pretzel.
Norma
I will have an even more affirmative answer tomorrow, but no, I wouldn't say it tastes like a pretzel.
Norma,
I read the same thing about the pretzel dough but I did not think that the MM pizza tasted like a pretzel. If it did, I think that comparison would have jumped out at me.
Peter
Here are some pictures of the failed second attempt (the first being my own guesstimate formula which turned out much better, but more so because I formed a rim and baked it differently).
1. Skin with sauce
2. Skin with cheese
3. finished pie. the flash makes it look darker than it really was
4. rim shot of one of the smaller-rimmed pieces. Due to my novice skin-shaping skills, the rim is always thicker in some sections than others.
5. rim shot of the highest rimmed piece.
Peter, here are the responses to your questions:
I had to call the store to find out. . . it's Heartland Mills. Upon checking their website and calling them, I discovered that they now call this flour "Strong Bread" and it only has a 12.5% protein content. So a big change from my first attempt using KASL. I don't think I'll use this flour for pizza again, at least while I still have some KASL (which I don't know if I can continue to keep around).
I did not use the normal dough course. I used the "homemade" course which allows you to turn on and off each individual cycle. . .I have it set only to "KNEAD" for 15 minutes. I've been using this method for months with all my pizza doughs with no problems. My only thing is that I don't know how the Zo mixing times compare to standard stand mixer times.
I actually didn't realize MM formed a rim on the skin. For some reason I've always felt shame for doing so. Not sure where I got the idea but I've always felt that this was a novice's shortcut. So this time I thought I would not form a rim to see what kind of spring I could get on the rim just from the oven. I much prefer the results when I do form a rim on the skin so maybe I'll keep doing that.
I have a piece of junk electric Hotpoint oven which until very recently only had 1 oven rack! I heated the stone for 45 mins on the absolute lowest position then baked it on the second-to-lowest rack. I don't think I actually moved it up to the broiler - I just turned the broiler on for about a minute.
Yes indeed! Used cornmeal on the peel and slid the sucker right on there. BTW, I'm using an Emile Henry "Flame" 14'' Pizza Stone.
No, but I think that's because the rim was so thin and overcooked to boot, so the crust basically tasted like a cracker.
I'm considering it but I don't know what I'd do with it. Meaning, I don't know how long it would need to ferment if any, etc, etc. But it would be quite interesting to observe the color and texture.
Norma,
Oustanding! The pies look awesome.
But how come the shreds of mozzarella look bigger, thicker and longer compared to what I get when I shred my cheese? It's your commercial Hobart grating attachment, isn't it?
It looks like it also melts much better. What type/brand of mozzarella are you using? Grande low-moisture?
Norma, that looks great and very Mellow-ish, in my opinion! I'm impressed by your rim. ..it doesn't look like you formed one on the skin, yet you got quite a bit of spring. .way more evidently than I did (and even than the real MM pie I had tonight. . more to come tomorrow).
I did make it to an MM tonight in order to refresh my memory of the experience and to see if I could obtain any information. I will post tomorrow with my results. I came away with some interesting info and thoughts, but nothing shocking from an engineering standpoint I think.
Norma,
I think you did a terrific job with your MM clone pizza. Since I have been working on this project, I have seen many photos of MM pizzas, and admittedly they can take on many different looks, possibly because most of the MM pizzas seem to be assembled by young people, but I would say that from a “look and feel” standpoint, your MM clone pizza ranks among the best. Maybe in due course we will learn how close you came to the real thing. But you obviously paid close attention to what was written and shown about the MM pizzas. The photo below reflects how I think that the real Biz Markie would have reacted upon seeing your MM clone pizza.
Your results prompt me to ask some questions:
1. How long, in days and/or hours, was the cold fermentation period?
2. Were you able to detect the presence of the wheat germ in the pizza itself, either in terms of speckling of the crumb and/or from a taste standpoint?
3. If you look at the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&feature=related, you will see that a very distinct rim is made in the skin initially, and while it subsides some by the time it is on the peel, the rim is still pretty much intact without the pizza maker having to touch it again. Of course, we don’t know whether the dough ball was worked while cool or warm, although I think it is safe to say that the dough ball was defrosted from a frozen dough ball (since the pizza in the video was made in a Florida MM location that gets frozen dough balls). The condition of the dough ball on the bench could have affected the size of the rim and how the dough ball was opened up and formed into a skin. The size of the baked rim might also been affected because of the lower oven temperature that could have produced a reduced oven spring. While on the matter of that video, when you look at the video, can you venture a guess based on your experience as to what you think the hydration of the dough might have been, including the effects of the oil and molasses on the wetness of the dough? My own view on the rim is that it still makes sense to move the gases in the dough to the outer edges to form a bigger rim.
4. Did you attempt to stretch, toss and spin the skin along the lines as shown in the abovementioned video, or did you just work the dough on your knuckles? If the latter, do you think that the hydration was too high to permit tossing and spinning?
5. How long was the MM clone pizza baked and at what temperature?
6. Do you think the dough could take on more molasses without adversely affecting the bake?
7. Do you have any other observations or suggestions that might be helpful to others wishing to try the MM clone dough formulation you used?
Peter
Norma,
On the matter of the wheat germ, I wondered how much flavor and color it might have imparted to the finished crust. Theoretically, if the wheat germ is finely ground, it should still taste pretty much the same (a toasty flavor "with a mild, lingering nut-like taste"). Maybe it is worth an experiment to use more toasted wheat germ. As I mentioned earlier, the expert at Garuda International put the range at up to 10%.
My question about the molasses was to see if you thought the crust was only mildly sweet, which would suggest that one might want to add more. When I had the MM pizza recently, I thought that the crust was noticeably sweet, even more so than the Papa John's crusts I have made, which contain around 4% sugar. However, sweetness is a personal thing that can be adjusted as desired.
You didn't say how long the cold fermentation period was but I assumed you selected the amount of yeast to get to about 2-3 days of cold fermentation. In one of the videos I referenced earlier in this thread, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyhkznN2qzc&feature=related, the owner/manager says (at 4:30 in the video) that the dough at his MM location (Germantown/Memphis, TN) takes 48 hours for the pizza dough to get ready to go to the oven. Since that location presumably uses frozen MM dough balls, I assumed that the first day was to let the dough balls defrost and for the second day the defrosted dough balls are held in the cooler until ready to use. It was on this basis that I decided on 0.60% IDY, to simulate a defrosted dough ball case. For any other application, I would select the amount of yeast to conform to the desired period of cold fermentation, just as you did. As noted previously, I do not have any idea as to the type and duration of fermentation for the MM stores that use fresh dough balls.
You indicated that you had some difficulty incorporating the oil into the dough. You used the "Lehmann method" (which was also the E.J. Pyler method going back several decades), which is to incorporate the oil after the initial mix. I found that that worked if the amount of oil was around 1% but when it got to around 4-5% or higher, I experienced difficulties incorporating the oil into the dough in my basic KitchenAid stand mixer with the C-hook. So, I decided to use the method that member November advocates and that is to add the oil to the water. His logic is that the oil is more uniformly incorporated into the dough that way.
As far as the rim of the MM pizza that I had is concerned, I would say that it was reasonably moist but it was on the dense side. That is one of the reasons why I decided to use less oil in the dough formulation. I didn't want the rim to be soft and tender and open and airy. In due course, I might reduce the amount of oil even further. Or possibly try an even lower hydration value.
At some point, I may decide to try an MM clone myself. To be honest, until you tried the MM clone dough formulation I proposed, I had some lingering doubts about whether the formulation was any good for MM cloning purposes. A lot of my pizza making was put on hold this year due to the brutal summer we had in Texas. I don't think I have used my oven since about last May. We broke all kinds of temperature records, and set a new one by having 70 100-degree days so far this year. We missed the record for consecutive 100-degree days by two days, when a temporary breeze came over Texas from Oklahoma and cooled things down enough so that the temperature only got to 97 degrees at the DFW airport where the temperatures are measured. The prediction is for warmer than normal weather for the rest of the year, along with continued drought. It has been around the 90s lately. That prompted me to get my sweaters out. I may also have to get the instructions for my oven out to refresh my memory on how to use it :-D.
I will be anxious to read Biz's report on his MM visit last night. That might help tighten up the MM clone dough formulation. Of course, your test and report were also very helpful, especially since you were able to use your commercial deck oven. It may turn out that in a home oven setting it might be worth using a combination of screen and stone to get comparable results. That was the approach I used to make the Papa John's clones as my best approximation to a commercial conveyor oven.
Peter
Norma,
If more wheat germ is used, that can affect the required hydration but we wouldn't be using enough to worry about, maybe 4-5%. Whether you decide to grind the toasted wheat germ you have on hand, that will also affect the required hydration. I would imagine that if the wheat germ is ground to a flour-like consistency it should hydrate better because of the finer particle size. Since you did not detect the wheat germ in the finished crumb, I don't think I would worry about grinding it down further. It would be interesting, however, to know if the wheat germ that MM uses in its commissry can be seen in the MM frozen dough balls. If not, that would suggest a wheat germ product with a flour-like consistency such as sold by Garruda International.
I forgot to mention earlier that as between the coarse cornmeal and the corn flour, I would go with the coarse cornmeal. My bag of cornmeal just says "cornmeal". It doesn't say coarse or fine. However, corn flour would not be a particularly good choice in a pizza operation because it can wreak havoc on the air conditioning system. I understand that is one of the reasons why Papa John's adds some oil to their semolina/flour Dustinator blend that is used on the bench. You can see a photo of cornmeal being used in the photo at http://www.flickr.com/photos/tikiloti/3298855934/in/photostream/. You might also note the related photo at http://www.flickr.com/photos/tikiloti/3298971932/in/photostream/ where you can see some bubbling in the skin as it is being formed.
I checked the molasses I have on hand and it is the Grandma's Original brand. Grandma's also has a Robust version that is darker in color and has a more pronounced flavor. MM most likely uses a commercial grade molasses such as sold by companies like Malt Products Corporation (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.molasses.html). Since you are a professional, you might call Malt Products and ask them to send you a 55-gallon drum of one of their liquid molasses products to experiment with :-D. I would think that it would make more sense for MM to use a dry molasses in its commissary operation or even in the stores that make their own dough. The dry molasses can even be part of a pre-mix.
BTW, it is not too late to become a hippy. You might dig out your black garb, get a few tattoos, and join Willie Nelson on his road tour. You would fit right in, especially when they see what you can do with a bag of flour. You can send in periodic reports to the forum from the road as Aimless Ryan has been doing.
Peter
Hola everyone!
Sorry to keep you in suspense for so long but things have been hectic around here lately. I will have to go back and catch up on all the posts I've missed.
I wasn't able to obtain as much intelligence from my MM visit as I had hoped, but I did gain perhaps some insight.
Let's see how to start....
First I guess I'll point out that I hoped to chat with one or more of the employees behind the counter assembling the pies. Unfortunately, I was not able to engage any of them. Similar to what Peter noted in his Jacksonville report, the prep area at this location was not really approachable. There was just enough distance between me and the kitchen that it was too far to really have a conversation. I was able to see a decent bit, however, and I'll report on that:
1. Oven: The MM that I visited was using a "Montague Hearth Bake" deck oven (or maybe it was 2 of them). I couldn't see the temperature as there was no digital thermostat. There was an upper deck and a lower deck, both quite wide, probably 6-8 feet.
2. Dough prep: I was a little confused at first because before I saw the oven doors opened, I noticed lots of pizza screens around, and skins being carried about on screens. Once I realized they were using a deck oven, I presumed that they must be pre-forming the skins on screens. I'm not sure this is correct. . .I have extremely limited knowledge of kitchen operation.
I definitely saw employees forming skins by hand, mostly stretching them with their fists. I did see some twirling and tossing, but mostly just stretching. The dough was extremely "tolerant". .. that is, they were stretching the tar out of that dough! I mean really working it over. It struck me at the time that the dough must be rather dry for this to be possible. The word "tough" kept coming to mind as I watched them pull the skins to the limits.
One of the more important things I noticed is that no one seemed to be forming rims on the skins. Immediately after stretching/twirling, the skins were laid down and dressed. I couldn't actually see the skins because of the counter, but I did not see any motions that resembled the forming of a rim. I thought this was very interesting, but see my comments below on the finished product.
3. Sauce: I noticed the sauce was kept in a heated pot thingy. This may be standard practice but it struck me as a little peculiar. I tried to look for "spoodle" usage but the only such implement that I saw was a regular ol' stainless steel ladle. I saw one person dress a skin using this ladle in the standard method.
4. Dough color: I was not able to get a very close look at the uncooked dough, but from what I could see, the color was very similar to my first 2 MM clone attempts. Of course, if they were side-by-side they might appear more dissimilar. I definitely was not close enough to look for germ flecks.
That's about all I could tell from loitering around the kitchen. I looked pretty silly just standing there staring! A couple folks asked if I needed anything. So at least they had attentive employees! On the other hand, the guys making the pizzas met my eyes a few times but just returned stony expressions - not particularly friendly fellows.
So we ordered 2 pies. Two 10'' pizzas - one "mega veggie" with no cheese and one half cheese-half hawaiian.
As we have already established, it's standard practice for them to butter and parm the crust, so in true vegan form we requested no butter or parm on our veggie pizza.
I also requested a cup of the pizza sauce for dipping, and so that I could bring it home for possible cloning.
At least 15 minutes later (though I didn't time it) the pies came out. Here are my observations of the pies:
1) Rim - I was very surprised that the rim was barely any more pronounced than my most recent MM attempt which I deemed a failure. I was expecting a big rim but this was definitely not a big rim. This is not what I remembered from my previous MM visits, but it has been a while.
I observed other customer's pizzas on their tables and none of them had what I consider to be a pronounced rim. For example, nothing like Norma's pie in the previous posts. I will say that the larger 14'' pies I saw seemed to almost inherently have a slightly bigger rim than our 10''s
2) Color - the crust and crumb was also not quite what I remembered. It was not as yellowy-golden as I recall. I did not see any germ in the crumb or otherwise.
3) Texture - I was also quite disappointed in the texture of the crust. The rim crust was fairly "done" on the outside. The crumb was pretty soft and somewhat squishy, but there was so little crumb to speak of that the overall texture of the rim crust was again not all that far off from my "overbaked and under-sprung" attempt from last week. This pie was definitely not as overbaked as mine, but it was nowhere near as chewy as I remember from the past.
The bottom of the pie was pretty crispy too. .see next point.
4) Thickness - in the past we ALWAYS had to eat our MM pizzas with a fork because the crust was so thin. One thing to note is that in the past we also ALWAYS got the House Special, but anyway - our Veggie pie last nightseemed to me to be pretty thick. A fork was definitely not required to eat it.
5) Crust flavor - in general, again the flavor of the crust was not as striking and unique as I remembered. Aside from that, definitely the most noticeable feature was the sweetness. In fact, that's about all I could take from it. I felt like I could sense the molasses (which also by the way seemed inherently linked to the outer crunch of the crust). I'm not saying the germ did not contribute to the flavor profile, but I did not detect any particular "nuttiness" from the germ. Again, the main characteristic was the sweetness. Not to say that it was like eating a cinnamon roll, but definitely sweet.
As noted above, our veggie pizza was ordered without butter and parm. But the kids' pizza was prepared with the normal butter and parm. For the sake of science, I took one taste of the kids' crust.
I did not actually detect any Garlic, though it's been postulated that it's garlic butter used. The server just called it "butter" but not sure how much that's worth. I did not taste any garlic, unless it was so minute that I missed it.
6) Sauce - the first thing I tasted when the food came out was the sauce from the cup I requested. Initially I seemed to sense a fennel type of taste which is odd because there was no fennel. As I continued to taste the sauce, I came to hone in on just the simple, slightly tangy tomato-ness of it (as Peter had reported). It was not overly sweet. It had a fair amount of salt, I'd wager, but not "salty." I think there's a good deal of black pepper and I also think some olive oil, due to the heavy mouthfeel. I did seem to find a few specks of basil or oregano, but there was not a discernible herby flavor. Pretty good sauce.
Well, that's about it as far as the pizza itself. As you can probably tell, I was pretty disappointed. Overall it was not nearly the awesome pizza I remember from many previous (though none very recent) visits. I wonder if some of it was due to the 10'' size - maybe they don't make as many of these and we just got badly made pies.
ADDITIONAL INFO:
1) Based on Peter's wish that he could learn the oil used in the MM dough, I decided to ask the waitress, who was very attentive. She gave me a very odd look but went to the kitchen to ask. She came back and reported that. . . lo and behold. . .. it's "Soybean Oil."
2) I attempted to purchase a dough ball but when I asked the server, she said they didn't sell them. I told her that I called the store a month or 2 ago (as recorded in an earlier post of mine in this thread) and was advised they DO sell the balls. So she went to ask. She came back and said they cannot sell them due to health code concerns. I figured I'd worn out my welcome at this point. We paid the bill and left.
UPON RETURNING HOME
We took one full piece of the veggie pie home, and it so happened that we also had a leftover piece from Sunday night's "failed" MM Clone attempt.
So I compared. Suprisingly the rims were very similar, as noted above. The crumb structure was nearly identical. The color of the crumb was also practically identical. The flavor, however, was not quite the same, but I believe there are at least a couple reasons. One is that my pie was definitely overbaked, no question. It had that overbaked taste to it, whereas the MM pie did not. Secondly, the MM slice was less than 24 hours old at the time of comparison, and my slice was about 72 hours old.
SUMMARY - KEY POINTS
I was not impressed with the pizza on this particular visit. They are using Soybean Oil, apparently. This location did not seem to be forming rims on the skins and it showed in the finished product. The predominant flavor characteristic of the crust is simply sweetness. The butter used on the rim did not seem to be garlic butter.
I really think our formulas are very close. In my case, I think if I can just improve my methods slightly, I will basically be there, with either my initial guesstimate formula or Peter's 24-hour formula. I think the use of Soybean Oil (I did not have any on hand in my 2 tests) will help. I'm eager to try my ground germ too. I'm not sure if I'll form a rim on the skin or not in my next attempt, but if I can get the bake time right, I think I for one will be satisfied.
I am posting a pic of the actual MM crust profile and of the bottom of the pie. The rim actually appears somewhat "high" in the picture but believe me, it wasn't. Sorry I didn't get better pics.
Talk to you tomorrow!
Norma,
I thought you'd like that information.
You mentioned that you liked the MM clone dough formulation you used and that your daughter liked the pizza itself. Did you both treat the pizza as just a novelty or curiosity item or would you want to make it again, either for yourselves or at market?
Peter
Norma,
Did John at Malt Products say that it was OK to use their dry molasses in a pizza dough but not in a pre-mix? BTW, I am starting to move away from the idea of MM using a pre-mix. If MM has a commissary, they shouldn't need a third party to make the pre-mix for them, especially if all of the ingredients (other than the spring water) are dry. Keeping the process in-house would give MM better control over the product, including proprietary information, and a greater ability to make adjustments.
Peter
Do you think MM commissaries are using dried or liquid molasses?
Norma,
I really don't know. It just seemed to me to be easier and more convenient to use a dry form of molasses than a wet form. It looks like I am going to have to do research on molasses :-D. I have to believe that there are many forms and versions of dried molasses.
BTW, I believe that MM has only one commissary, in the Atlanta area. That might change as the company moves out of the Southeast more and has a critical mass of new stores to support another commissary.
Peter
Norma,
Here are some examples of what is out there in terms of dry molasses: http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/drysweeteners/Pages/Molasses.aspx (see, also, http://www.adm.com/en-US/products/food/sweeteners/Documents/ADM%20Dry%20Sweeteners%20Sales%20Sheet.pdf) and http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11208. Both companies have been around for a long, long time. Domino is in Florida. ADM is global. The dry molasses products of both companies appear to be suitable for baking applications and functional in both liquid and dry formulations. What is not entirely clear and may require further research is if any sucrose is present in any of the product, which would be a no-no.
Peter
I don’t understand why any sucrose present in dry molasses is a no-no.
Norma,
Sucrose is table sugar, which is a refined sugar, and MM has said that it doesn't use refined sugar in either its dough or sauce: http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html (third page).
Peter
Just a couple things:
Regarding the screens I saw at the MM in Franklin - I didn't see any of them actually in use in the ovens at the time I was watching.
I did see several pies go into the oven, directly onto the deck as far as I could tell, and I didn't see anyone slide a screen under a pie that was in the oven already. But that's not to say they don't do either. The only places I saw the screens were folks carrying them with skins on them over to the prep area, and unused screens in a rack above the oven.
Peter - what would be your recommendation as far as baking method for my next attempt? I'm starting to become skeptical of my Emile Henry stone. . I've maybe connected a few dots. My last pizza had very little spring, and now that I think about it, some hearth breads I've attempted to make from BBA have also had very little spring. Not to mention, there's the inconvenience (in my case due to my Sunday night schedule) of heating the thing for a hour and heating up the house.
In my first MM attempt (and in my former PJ Clone pies which I got down pretty well) I used a screen and had good results other than just under-baking the pie I believe.
While I do respect the desire to completely clone the MM pie and methods, I have to be honest that for me, taste is king. . as long as it tastes good and is pretty stinkin' close to the real thing, I'm happy.
That being said, I suppose for this weekend I will try your 24-hour formula. I will be going back to the KASL and I also finally have soybean oil. I also have the ground wheat germ I ground in my Hario coffee mill. I plan to form a rim (I may try the method shown in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&feature=related which I've never tried - I normally just make the skin a little bigger than the screen/peel and "roll-up" a rim just prior to dressing.
Any suggestion for a bake time?
Your talks with the sales rep at ADM were interesting. Since both products, (of the dry molasses) the sales rep suggested could be used on a one-to-on basis as substitutes for liquid molasses, (if they are tried) that would be a good thing. There would be no need to guess what amount of molasses to add to a formula for experimental purposes. I will use the sample request at ADM and see if I can obtain samples of the Sweet’n’Neat 4000 dry molasses powder and the Sweet’n’Neat 65 spray-dried molasses powder. At least it would be a good experiment to see how dry molasses works in your formula. Since you found out there is no such thing as 100% dried molasses and they add other ingredients to make up the balance, (like maltodextrin, which is made from sugar) I wonder how MM can states they use no sugar in their dough if they use dry molasses. Maybe it has to do with that 2% thing from the FDA.
Norma,
If you go back to the list of ADM dried molasses products, and even click on the links for more information, you will see that not all of the products list maltodextrin as an ingredient. Of course, you may learn more once you get the samples and related specs if they are provided. But even if MM is using a dry molasses with maltodextrin, one can argue that it is not a "refined sugar". In fact, I have read that in nutrition labels maltodextrin is included under Total Carbohydrates, not under the "sugars" sub-part. I do not think that the 2% FDA rule applies. If it does, then ADM will have to list the maltodextrin under the 2% part of the ingredients list. As you might recall with the Caravan folks, they were not readily forthcoming with information about their products, for proprietary reasons, and I would expect ADM to behave the same way.
Peter
| High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Water (54%): IDY (0.375%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3%): Liquid Molasses (5%): Total (164.375%): | 315.1 g | 11.11 oz | 0.69 lbs 170.16 g | 6 oz | 0.38 lbs 1.18 g | 0.04 oz | 0 lbs | 0.39 tsp | 0.13 tbsp 6.3 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp 9.45 g | 0.33 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.08 tsp | 0.69 tbsp 15.76 g | 0.56 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.27 tsp | 0.76 tbsp 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684 |
Thanks for setting-forth the MM#2 formula, and the instructions to go with it. I will give the formula a try.
Norma,
I specifically had you in mind because I wanted you to be able to make a dough in time to use it at market next Tuesday. I am anxious to see if the modified MM dough clone formulation is an improvement, and I didn't want us to lose a week to find out.
Peter
I think the only question that I want to ask you if I should try to shape the dough so the rim stays bigger on this next attempt?
Norma,
That is entirely up to you. As a company, I do not recall that Mellow Mushroom has ever made a point about the size of the rims of their pizzas. However, if you look at MM photos of their pizzas in a typical menu, for example, at http://www.mellowmushroom.com/menu#/menu/pizza, you will see that the pizzas have pretty well defined rims, with the insides looking somewhat sunken relative to the rims. It is as though the rims form a vehicle or vessel for containing all of the things that go onto the pizzas so that they are unlikely to fly off of the pizzas when they are shuffled into the ovens. For example, the House Special pizza contains 12 items (including the cheese) and the Mega Veggie pizza contains 13 items. From reviews I have read, I have gotten the impression that MM doesn't chintz on the amounts of toppings on their pizzas. If that is true, there may be a functional reason for high rims. As I reported earlier in this thread, at the MM Jacksonville Beach location I visited, the pizzas that I saw being served to diners had large rims and sunken insides.
Of course, we all know that photos prepared by food stylists and food photographers can be deceptive, and that what you will often find in the stores bears little resemblance to the company photos, but in the case of my recent visit the rims of the pizzas were pronounced.
Peter
The pie was baked at 500 on the second-lowest rack position for 8 minutes plus 15-20 seconds of broiler (but I did not move the pizza up).
Norma, your pie looks great! Nice rim and nice crumb.
I'm most impressed by your awesome hippy stuff! What a really, really fun and clever thing to do!
Did the crust taste sweet or did it have a savory, nutty type taste? How about the texture. . . was it soft?
Thanks for the info!
I'm not sure why your dough would have behaved the way it did, in terms of feeling more hydrated than you expected. Maybe Pete can help.
"Nutty" might not be the right word for the flavor I believe the wheat germ imparts. the fact that you didn't think it was particularly sweet yet had a unique taste may basically be the same conclusion I came to after my last MM attempt.
I am also glad in a way that you thought the crust was very soft, because I thought my last MM dough was too. This may mean the formula could use a little tweaking. The real MM pie I had a couple weeks ago was definitely not soft and bready like mine have been. Not sure though if this is a formula issue or a baking-method issue.
Are you using Brer Rabbit Mild for your molasses?
In a perfect world I'd try several other kinds of molasses, because there really is considerable variation on flavor - sweetness and bitterness. I think the Brer Rabbit Mild is actually fairly potent (i.e. bitter/twangy). It's also pretty dark. . . I've been thinking lately that to get the level of sweetness in the MM dough using only molasses, it might result in a darker color. I admit I've wondered if honey might also be used in a small amount (but that's probably crazy talk). Of course if MM is using dried molasses, that could also affect the color less than what I'm using while still delivering lots of sweetness.
Norma,
Perhaps you can now see why I don’t like to change too many variables at a time, even if the changes aren’t major. But, let us see if we can work through things to see if we can identify why your last dough seemed to be so extensible. For purposes of the analysis, I will assume that there were no weighing or other measurement errors.
First, it is hard to see how increasing the amount of molasses by about a quarter teaspoon would be responsible for the increase in extensibility. However, to get a better handle on things, I went back to the original MM clone dough formulation at Reply 67 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg152958.html#msg152958, which I will refer to hereinafter as MM#1 for convenience, and to the MM#2 clone dough formulation at Reply 151 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154240.html#msg154240, and did a bunch of calculations. These calculations included calculating the “adjusted” hydration that compensates for the water content of the molasses and the “effective” hydration that takes into account the “wetting” effect of the oil (and the molasses as well). Here is a summary of the pertinent data for the two formulations.
MM#1
Flour Blend, 100%, 311.53 grams/10.99 ounces
Nominal hydration, 55%, 171.34 grams/6.04 ounces
Soybean oil, 4%
Molasses, 4.5%, 14.02 grams/0.49 ounces/2.02 teaspoons
Wheat germ, 3%, 9.35 grams/0.33 ounces
Adjusted hydration, 56%
Effective hydration, 60%
MM#2
Flour Blend, 315.1 grams/11.11 ounces
Nominal hydration, 54%, 170.16 grams/6 ounces
Soybean oil, 3%
Molasses, 5%, 15.76 grams/0.56 ounces/2.27 teaspoons
Wheat germ, 4%, 12.6 grams/0.45 ounces
Adjusted hydration, 55.1%
Effective hydration, 58.1%
As you can see from the above, the MM#2 dough should have been a bit stiffer than the MM#1 dough. Normally, that would translate into a less extensible dough, not a more extensible one.
Second, I do not see that increasing the amount of wheat germ by 3 ¼ grams, and even with the MM#2 wheat germ being in ground form, should have had much of an effect on the hydration. It would have to have better absorption characteristics than the high-gluten flour itself for that to happen and to result in a more hydrated dough. I suppose that it is possible that adding the oil to the water up front may have had some effect on the hydration of the flour blend but usually adding the oil up front is deemed to interfere with the hydration of the flour. If the more uniform dispersion of the oil in the dough had some effect that resulted in the more extensible dough is something that would have to be tested.
Essentially the only other item left to consider is the yeast. I used 0.375% IDY as a middle of the road value. Maybe it is possible that that amount of yeast caused the dough to ferment too fast and that led to the increase in extensibility. If so, then the value could be lowered.
At this point, you have several options. You can repeat your previous experiment to see if you get the same results, especially in terms of achieving a dough with reduced extensibility. Or you can make changes to MM#2, as by lowering the nominal hydration and, if you wish, adding more molasses to get an increased level of sweetness in the finished crust that is obvious on the palate. Maybe you can think of some other option to try, perhaps one that would modify MM#1. I don’t think that it is imperative that you achieve a “nutty” flavor in the finished crust from the use of the wheat germ. I don’t recall that the flavor of wheat germ in the MM pizza I had jumped out at me. In your case, you used a ground up form of toasted wheat germ. In Biz’s case, he used a ground up form of raw wheat germ. Apparently he could taste the wheat germ in the finished crust and now would like to reduce it in the next iteration of an MM clone dough formulation. It also looks like he would like to get a sweeter tasting crust too.
It is quite possible that with all of the types, forms and brands of molasses and wheat germ that are available both at the retail and foodservice levels, and with different taste sensitivities, we may never get an MM clone dough formulation that will work for everyone regardless of the types, forms and brands of molasses and wheat germ they use. Each person may have to do some testing and experimenting to achieve the desired end results.
BTW, I also got a big kick out of your fake tatoos, decals and the like.
Peter
Norma
It is quite possible that the excessive extensibility of the dough was due to the long temper at around 86 degrees F, and I am sure that I would have commented on that had you mentioned it in your earlier post. Technically, a dough can be used when its temperature is around 56 degrees F. When I first saw the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7-oxqmv7L8&feature=related, I thought that perhaps the worker was working with a cold dough since I have seen workers at my local Papa John's do that. Note also that it took about ten slaps between the worker's hands, and they looked belabored, before he was able to toss and spin the skin. If the dough was not a cold dough, then that would suggest a dough with low hydration.
I am not so concerned at this point about the amount of molasses. Since both you and Biz commented on the low sweetness level, the amount of molasses can be increased. Molasses is said to be less sweet than table sugar, so some increase in the molasses should be tolerated but not so much as to cause the bottom of the crust to darken too quickly or even burn.
I am more concerned at this point about the fact that both you and Biz said the crusts were soft, even though to my eye the crumb looked like the crumb of the MM pizza I had. Softness in a crust is usually because of high sugar and oil levels. A high hydration value can also produce a similar effect if there is a solid oven spring. In your case, the overproofing of the dough may well have been a contributing factor because of all of the built up gases. I don't recall offhand how Biz prepped his dough before he made his pizza.
Once Biz has a chance to catch up with our posts and to comment, if appropriate, I will give some thought as to how I think we might best proceed with the project at this point.
Peter
It will be interesting to hear what Biz has to say about his MA#1 dough, and how he handled it.
I still plan to formally catch up here but as for this question. . I have made 3 total MM doughs: One my own guesstimate and Two MM #1's. All 3 I "dechilled" for about 2 hours at probably an average of 76 degrees or so.
In all cases, the doughs were just slightly on the extensible side. . . . I did not not toss or twirl them (I might have tossed the first one once or twice). I probably could have, but it did seem slightly risky. I know the last 2 doughs (MM#1) I just stretched on the back of my fists while turning the dough.
“Our dough separates us from any other pizza place in the world,” Alderson said as she listed off unrefined flour, molasses, wheat germ, and fresh Georgia spring water as the ingredients.
Peter
Norma,
Normally, "unrefined flour" means a flour like whole wheat flour that has not had the bran and wheat germ and other things milled out of it. I believe that Ms. Alderson meant to say that the flour is unbleached and unbromated.
I did a search earlier to see if the "unrefined flour" phrase was used in other places in relation to "Mellow Mushroom" and I could not find another such use. So, I believe that Ms. Alderson misspoke.
Peter
Norma,
I did see that video some time ago but I am glad you cited it as another example of how MM pizzas are made. It looks like the dough balls were allowed to warm up before using to make the pizzas in the video. Yet it still took about 22 passes from hand to hand to fully open up the dough ball for the first pizza.
I also noticed the Spoodle-type portioner. It looks like the same portioner is used for all pizza sizes. For example, the first pizza is a 10" pizza judging from the marked circles on the peel. The amount of sauce is not to the top of the portioner. I think a 14" pizza would get 6 ounces of sauce and for a 16" pizza a full scoop + might be around 8 ounces.
I'll be most interested to see how the dry molasses powder works out, especially how the color of the finished crust is when compared with the syrup version. Likewise for the sweetness.
Peter
Biz,
Thanks for answering the question about how you handled your 3 doughs! If I remember correctly, you didn't do any 48 hr. cold ferments did you?
Norma
Norma,
What I would like to see is a comparison between the dry molasses powder and the liquid molasses, with an emphasis on sweetness, taste and color (dough and crust). I think a good test of this would be to repeat MM#1 or MM#2, at your option, but use the dry molasses powder instead of the liquid molasses. Since I was told by the ADM sales rep that the dry molasses powder can be used as a direct replacement for the liquid molasses, I wondered how the hydration would be adjusted. I now see from the first ADM spec sheet you posted that water has to be added to the formulation. I also see that the recommended usage is 5-10% of the total formula weight. That is different than the total formula flour so I would like to study the numbers to see what the dry molasses powder represents as a percent of the total formula flour. If you decide on an MM clone dough formulation for your next try, I should be able to determine a new hydration value and the range of dry molasses to use.
Peter
Wow the dry molasses is pretty intriguing.
I think it really improved the spring on the bread. I'm hoping perhaps that I can get that slight crunch on the outside and chewy inside on my next MM attempt.
| Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (57.25%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%): ADM 4000 DMP (4.5%): Total (168.35%): | 307.66 g | 10.85 oz | 0.68 lbs 176.14 g | 6.21 oz | 0.39 lbs 1.85 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 6.15 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.1 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 12.31 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.71 tsp | 0.9 tbsp 13.84 g | 0.49 oz | 0.03 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684 |
The amount of sauce I was using probably was the wrong amount. When you have time to think all this over in your next iteration for a formula, I would appreciate if you could post how much sauce you think Biz and I should use, or for anyone that is interested in trying the formulas you set-forth.
The one thing that has me concerned is the ADM 4000 DMP does have a more bitter taste than the Brer Rabbit mild molasses. I wonder how that will affect the sweetness in the final pizza crust.
Norma,
Since the liquid component of the molasses has been removed when dried, you might take an amount of the ADM 4000 DMP and add water in an amount that is half the weight of the ADM 4000 DMP and taste it for sweetness and to see if it tastes like liquid molasses. You can repeat the test with an equal weight of water. These two tests would cover the full range of rehydration mentioned in the ADM specs.
Peter
Norma,
How can a product called SWEET'N'NEAT not be sweet? Also, if you look at the nutrition profile for liquid blackstrap molasses at http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=nutrientprofile&dbid=85, you will see that the two major components are sugars and water.
Peter
Norma,
Another simple test that you could conduct--which would be strictly a color test--is to take the baker's percents I gave you in Reply 201 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg154992.html#msg154992 and make a mini-dough ball but leave out the yeast and salt. I would retain the oil for any color contribution it may have. You will have to replace 3% of the high-gluten flour with your toasted pulverized wheat germ. The wheat germ would be retained solely for its color contribution. If the amount of dough is too small to make by machine, you can use hand kneading.
If you end up with a dough ball that has a color much darker than a brown coffee filter, or a brown supermarket paper bag if you don't have a brown coffee filter, I think it would be safe to say that MM may not be using a dry molasses powder, or at least not one like the one you have or in a quantity as high as 4.5%. If the dry molasses powder passes the color test but you are still concerned that it might not contribute enough sweetness, then you could just add about 4% honey to the dough you were planning to make for your next test. I would just add the honey and not worry about the baker's percents. That can be patched up later if the experiment works. I would think that with 4.5% dry molasses powder and 4% honey, you should be able to detect notieceable sweetness in the finished crust. I mentioned honey intentionally because I wonder whether MM is using a natural sweetener in its dough besides the molasses to give more sweetness than the molasses can deliver all by itself. Like Biz, in my research on MM I found references to honey but it was by diners or by authors of articles on MM who perhaps thought that the sweetness they detected was honey, not molasses. I have never found any reference attributable to MM itself that honey, or possibly some other natural sweetener, is used in its dough. Quite often, that kind of information is leaked out over time by workers or former workers.
Peter
I might even add the yeast and salt, but up the yeast amount to an emergency dough, so the dough could be baked in a few hrs. What yeast amount would you recommend if I wanted to make the dough and then bake the pizza in a few hrs.?
Norma,
At one point I thought to suggest an emergency dough, but it was mainly to see if the sugar levels in the dough would be more pronounced inasmuch as the frozen MM dough balls get very little fermentation time, specifically, as they slack off in the cooler and then during the temper time. I would suggest around 0.90% IDY, to be sure that the rather stiff dough can get a faster rise.
Peter
I find it interesting that you now mentioned that honey might be used in combination with molasses in a MM dough. I know Biz had wondered about that, and I also had thought about why all the molasses added didn’t give any sweeter taste in the crust.
Norma,
As I mentioned before, I did not find any credible evidence to suggest that MM is using honey it its dough, so I am not prepared at this time to make that leap. You might find it interesting that when I did a search related to the sweetness of the MM pizza crusts, I found expressions like "sweet", "slightly sweet" and "almost sweet". Of course, that could reflect different sensitivities to sweetness. I would have described the MM crust I ate as "sweet".
As I see it, MM is perhaps not using a great deal of molasses, just enough to give the dough the desired color (not too light and not too dark) and to keep the bottom of the finished crust from getting too dark. The amount of molasses should also be enough to give sweetness to the finished crust. In my past experiments, I found that it took around 4-5% sugar in the dough to get the sensation of sweetness in the finished crust. Tom Lehmann once pegged that value at 3-5% or more, as you will note from his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=9093&p=62165&hilit=#p62165. To equate molasses to sugar on that basis, it might take a bit more molasses (liquid) because it is said to be less sweet than ordinary table sugar. But one of the things that I found interesting is that I could more readily detect sweetness in the finished crust when the dough was not allowed to ferment for too long, with an emergency dough being one such example. I discussed this aspect a few times on the forum, for example, at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5491.msg46448/topicseen.html#msg46448, at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,691.msg27493/topicseen.html#msg27493 and at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3146.msg26843/topicseen.html#msg26843.
It is for the reasons noted in the above posts that I am interested in seeing the results for your emergency dough. If you think about it, if a frozen MM dough ball is allowed to defrost for only one day before using, the finished crust might be sweeter because of the minimal fermentation as the dough ball defrosts than if the dough is given a second day in the cooler or refrigerator. In the video that we both found earlier, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyhkznN2qzc, the owner/manager of the MM store says that there is a "touch of molasses" and a "hint" of sweetness in the crust, and that the process is a two-day process. Maybe the two days of refrigeration reduces the amount of residual sugar in the dough such that the finished crust has diminished sweetness. In your prior experiments using two days of cold fermentation, your doughs would get multiples of the fermentation of a defrosting/defrosted dough ball held in the cooler for one or two days.
Peter
I had one quick question to ask you about. I just looked though my “hoarders” flour cupboards, and though all my flours, and I don’t have any corn meal here at home. Do you think I should just go with making the small attempted MM’s pizza without any flour, or use Bob’s Red Mill semolina flour to coat the dough ball? All my cornmeal is at market. I am soon ready to make the pizza with topping.
Norma,
I think I would go with the semolina. It is not the same as cornmeal, of course, but the color is about the same and it might have an effect on the color of the bottom of the crust that is similar to what cornmeal might do.
Peter
Norma,
LOL. At least the crust wasn't bitter and you liked the pizza. Unfortunately, our members may not have access to the ADM 4000 DMP to be able to make a pizza like yours.
Of the ADM DMP products, the ADM 4000 DMP has the greatest amount of molasses solids (75%) so that might account for the darker dough and crust color. The ADM 65 DMP, which you have not yet received as a sample, has less molasses solids (65%) and is tan colored (http://www.adm.com/en-us/Products/_layouts/ProductDetails.aspx?productId=716). That product might allow you to use the same amount as the ADM 4000 DMP yet conceivably end up with a lighter color. That product also has the maltodextrin but it is not clear whether that will add much more in the way of sweetness.
Was the crust breadlike like the last one you made? And was the rim a bit on the dense side and chewy? Some of those qualities might have resulted from the relatively long bake time for such a small pizza.
I am not sure where you go next with the MM experiments. I have been waiting to see what results Biz gets to see what might be the logical next step. I suppose you could repeat your last dough but for a larger size pizza. Freezing the dough ball might be a worthwhile experiment but if you didn't detect much sweetness with your latest pizza I am not sure that the defrosted dough will do much better.
Peter
Interesting results, Norma. Looks tasty - especially with all those veggies!!
I had a couple questions if anyone has time to respond before I go to prepare my pie tonight:
1) Temper time - there's been some discussion here about tempering, namely overtempering, as we suspect might have happened in Norma's dough that became extremely extensible. This made me realize that I don't really know how to determine temper time. Does anyone have any suggestions? Due to my schedule on Sunday nights, I normally don't have too much of a choice - I have to pull it out of the fridge about 2 hours (if I use the screen) or even 3-3.5 hours ahead if I use the stone (to allow it to heat).
Ambient temps in my antebellum house can vary wildly. We've had a cold snap down here, so the ambient today is 69. In my previous attempts it was around 76 or so.
2) "superheating" my stone? - I read here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,440.msg3827.html#msg3827 about tricking an electric oven to keep the baking element on so that the stone would get even hotter than the oven setting due to the constant direct heat.
I used this method recently with some hearth breads and I was very pleased.
Would this be beneficial to an MM pie? I usually think "hotter is better" but then I pause a bit because we've seen sub-500 degree bake temps in some MM stores. Thoughts?
On a separate topic - and this is really just craziness - I have been daydreaming about possible other sweeteners that MM may be using. One train of thought I've had revolves around the molasses itself.
Being a chain started in the South, it has occurred to me that many, many Southerners (including myself until very recently) actually use the term "molasses" incorrectly. When they say Molasses, they're actually referring to Sorghum Syrup. I grew up calling Sorghum Syrup "molasses" and so do most Southerners. Sorghum and Molasses are not at all the same - I believe they're not even made from the same plant. Sorghum is usually much lighter in color and sweeter - both characteristics that I think need to be increased in the MM doughs we've been trying, perhaps. At the same time, it seems a little unlikely that anyone uses Sorghum in a commercial application. Just throwing it out there for some fun discussion ;D
Hope to hear from y'all soon. I will report back later regarding tonight's results.
Norma,
The experiment you described based on MM#2 merits trying.
Peter
Just one more question. Since it is so late today, do you think I should freeze the dough ball until later tomorrow, (about the same time tomorrow night), then put the dough in the fridge and make it later in the day Tuesday, or just freeze tonight and let it thaw out starting tomorrow when I go to market. I know my timeframe is off now.
Norma,
I think I would go with the latter.
Peter
Here are my results from the modified MM#2 attempt last night.
To recap, here is the formula I used, with the Germ shown as a separate ingredient:
High Gluten Flour = 100%
Wheat Germ = 2.0%
Spring Water = 54.0%
IDY = 0.37%
Salt = 2.0%
Soybean Oil = 3.0%
Liquid Molasses = 5.0%
TOTAL = 166.37%
1) Temper - the dough was tempered at about 69 degrees for 1.5 hours. I left it in the container this time. Sometimes I'll remove it from the container completely and cover with plastic wrap, but not this time. The dough didn't seem to have risen as much before the temper as perhaps other doughs, and after the temper it didn't seem to have grown much. I didn't measure the temp of the dough, but it was cool-ish to the touch.
2) Skin prep - The dough I think was close to the perfect amount of extensibility. It was not as loose or gassy as previous doughs. After dusting with cornmeal, I formed a rim as I did in my last attempt and stretched it out to about 8-10'' on the counter using my hands. It was fairly cooperative. I then picked it up and slapped it a couple times, then twirled it a bit, then moved on to a few full tosses. The tosses weren't proving to be super useful, so I then stretched it over my fists for a bit. This dough was probably the most tolerant dough I've handled. ..I had no fears about it tearing or anything. It was really fun to work with. I don't know how much was due to the cooler temperature of the dough versus the lower hydration. Some of both, I suppose.
3) Baking - I had been able to preheat my stone on the lowest rack position for about 1.5 hours this time. No "superheating" tricks. I moved the stone to the second-highest rack position in order to get a better convergence of crust and topping doneness. I think this was a good move. I baked it for 8 minutes. The oven spring was excellent this time (I was afraid a bit because the rim I formed on the skin didn't seem particularly big). It probably could have been pulled at 7 minutes, but I would not call the pie overbaked. I brushed with melted Earth Balance spread plus a little garlic powder. No Parm.
4) Observations - The rim puffed-up quite nicely and the crumb structure was good. Fairly open and bubbly but nothing too crazy. I'm having a hard time judging the crumb structure and texture to the real MM because those qualities don't stick in one's mind as much as flavor or aroma.
5) Taste - The good news is that I think the reduced Germ was a good move - I did not taste the pronounced savory/nutty flavor as I did last week. The bad news is that the crust was not noticeably sweet. Honestly it was a pretty blah-tasting crust. It performed great, but the taste was not MM-like. I could taste a hint of the molasses in the crunchier parts of the outer crust, but that was about it. I'm thinking at this point that my tastebuds were simply not calibrated when I said my first MM attempt was sweet, because this formula was almost identical and I did not detect sweetness anywhere near the degree of the real MM.
I think at this point if you increased the Molasses, it would change the color too much to the point of not resembling an MM dough at all. Therefore, I think they must be using some additional sweetener or a different sweetener altogether. My gut is probably leaning towards honey (based partially on some flatbread I made recently from BBA that included honey). The Southerner in me wants to think it's sorghum, but not sure. I may try that one day just for kicks, because I love sorghum (and molasses).
I noticed Norma mentioned barley malt. I have both diastatic barley malt powder and a jar of barley malt syrup. I also thought about the latter for use in an MM dough. It would, I think, give the dough a more golden color which I tend to associate with MM. I think you could use more of it without making the dough too brown. Also, Barley Malt Syrup is considered a "healthy" sweetener by vegans and such because it is more of a "whole food" and less refined. However, all of this speculation makes you wonder why so many sources talk about "molasses" in the dough.
I may post some pics from last night, but they're nothing really new.
After my last post, I wondered how a fixed weight of table sugar (sucrose) and a fixed weight of molasses would break down into the different forms of sugars. As it turns out, sucrose (granulated table sugar) is 100% sucrose (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5592/2). By contrast, liquid molasses contains three different sugars—sucrose, glucose and fructose. The glucose and fructose are reducing sugars so they are immediately available to yeast in a dough as food. The sucrose, which is a complex sugar (that is, it is a disaccharide and not a reducing sugar), has to be hydrolyzed (by enzymatic action) to the reducing sugars glucose and fructose before they can be used by the yeast as food. These actions are all described in detail at the theartisan.net website at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm.
From what I learned at the nutritiondata.self.com website at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5573/2, molasses is about 55.5% sugars (sucrose, glucose and fructose). The rest is water, ash, and small amounts of other elements. I was not able to quickly find the percents of the three sugars in molasses but I did read that there is more sucrose than the two other sugars and I found one old report that broke down molasses into about 32% sucrose, 14% glucose and 16% fructose.
Applying the above numbers to a 10-gram sample of ordinary table sugar (sucrose) and to a 10-gram sample of molasses, and assuming my numbers and calculations are correct, the full 10 grams of table sugar is 10 grams sucrose, and for the 10-gram molasses sample it would be 1.78 grams sucrose, 0.77 grams glucose and 0.89 grams fructose (for a total of 5.50 grams). We already know that molasses is less sweet than sucrose (member November also tells us this at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34741/topicseen.html#msg34741), but the above numbers would seem to suggest that it would take a lot more molasses to equal sucrose as a sweetener. Now, if one were to flash freeze a dough ball with molasses right after the dough ball has been made so that there is no fermentation, and then defrosts the dough ball for the minimum recommended time (maybe a day at best), with gradual fermentation during the defrosting step (note that November tells us in the abovereferenced post that molasses ferments at a slower rate than sucrose), then maybe more of the sugars in the molasses will be available at the time of use to provide the optimum amount of sweetness that molasses can deliver in a pizza dough application. This is essentially the test that I believe Norma will be conducting.
Peter
I know this probably isn’t what Mellow Mushroom uses for their dough to give it a sweet taste in the crust, but wouldn’t milk sugar (lactose dry) or maybe sweet whey powder, give the crust a sweeter flavor in combination with molasses?
Norma,
Thank you for conducting the latest experiment with the frozen MM clone dough ball and for your clever use of production values in keeping with the MM hippy/psychedelic theme. It was especially good to see from the video you posted that the dough handled beautifully and also that you were able to open up the defrosted dough ball at a temperature of about 57 degrees F. That suggests that maybe we have a robust MM clone dough with a workable effective hydration that permits use whether the dough is warm or cool, much as we have speculated from the MM videos we have seen.
I had been hoping against hope that you would get the desired degree of sweetness in the finished crust, but in anticipation that you wouldn't I had already started to think ahead to the next step. And that is the use of the ADM SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses powder. That product is supposed to be a tan-colored molasses. If so, it may be possible to use a lot more molasses to overcome its limited inherent capacity to produce sweetness while at the same time not producing an overly dark dough, as we have experienced when using standard supermarket brands of liquid molasses. Once we see what the SWEET'N'NEAT 65 dry molasses product looks like, and you have a chance to taste it, we can attempt a modified MM clone dough formulation using that product.
Would you mind describing the characteristics of the crust from the latest experiment and whether you liked the pizza and, if not, why not?
Peter
The pie was baked in 5 ½ minutes at about 525 degrees F.
Norma, I like the looks of that pie ... but I love that video even more. You're a gem.
Dave
Norma,
When I was researching molasses, I read that the lighter molasses has the most sugar. I believe that the lighter molasses remains after the first boiling, and that the supermarket brands that we have been using remain after the second boiling. Blackstrap molasses is what remains after the third boiling. Maybe we could use more of the supermarket brands of liquid molasses but then the color would be darker and the flavor of molasses would be more intense. Hopefully the ADM 65 DMP will be what we are looking for.
I also saw that from patents that drying of molasses was quite common in the 1970s and even sooner. Typically starches were used as part of the drying process. To this day, starches are used. Many, if not most, of ADM's dry molasses products use starch. In ADM's case, it is wheat starch.
Peter
Norma,
The original description of the ADM 65 DMP product says that it is tan-colored whereas the material you just posted says that the product imparts a dark color. Sometimes a material in bulk can look much darker than a thin layer of the same material. Would you mind putting a thin layers of the two ADM DMP products on a sheet of white paper and tell us if the ADM 65 DMP product is lighter in color than the ADM 4000 DMP product?
Peter
Hey y'all!
Sorry I've been absent for a few days. . I was on the road, but as luck would have it, I was able to stop by a MM store in Farragut TN (I believe that'd be the mailing address).
I took some pics of the crust of my 10'' Mega Veggie, made without cheese or butter or parm on the crust. I think you will see that the color is about the same as Norma's pics, and to my own eyes it's basically identical to what I've been producing.
But this whole little adventure has taught me one thing - taste buds are odd little things! This MM pizza did not seem to be as sweet as the one I had in Franklin a few weeks ago. But is that real or imagined?? Who knows!
One possible difference is that the waiter at the Farragut store affirmed 100% that their dough arrives frozen on trucks. When I asked in Franklin if it was made onsite or shipped in frozen, they said "a little of both." Not sure what that means.
But this most recent real MM pie crust actually tasted pretty similar to my last attempt if my taste bud memory is accurate. The crumb texture and structure also seemed to me to be very close to my last attempt.
Another thing I noticed was that this pie had a lot of cornmeal, and it seemed to be of a different variety than I have at home. The MM cornmeal seemed to be more of a yellow cornmeal that was coarser. The stuff I have is mostly white-looking and powdery. It seemed to me that the cornmeal on the MM pie actually gave it a slightly sweet "corny" flavor (which I enjoyed). I think I have seen other types of cornmeal at retail and may try something different.
I also tasted the kids's pizza that they ordered, which had the standard butter and parm on the rim. First, the butter was definitely garlic in this case (at my last visit I didn't taste much garlic if any). Secondly, it occurred to me that of course butter does have a slightly sweet taste to it. I am not getting that flavor at home because I am using salty butter substitutes.
But the bottom line at this point is that I'm just really perplexed at the sweetness issue. I'm not sure if it's my taste buds that can't be trusted or if the doughs at the 2 different MM stores were truly different.
I did also scan the posts since my last post, and I saw something that made me think a bit. . ..It is true in my experience that the lighter molasses is sweeter than the darker varieties. Blackstrap molasses, for example, has very little sweetness in my opinion.
So one possible way to make it sweeter without changing the color is to just use more of a lighter molasses variety.
I have had daydreams of staking-out the nashville commissary to try to see if I can determine what kinds of ingredients are being used, but that might be hazardous to my health!
Norma,
You raise some good points about the ADM Dri-mol products. When I first found the ADM website on their sweeteners, I was first attracted to the Dri-mol products. It was only after talking with the ADM sales rep and explaining the pizza dough application that he suggested going with the two dry molasses powders that you now have. If the ADM 65 DMP doesn't do the trick, then you might want to try the Dri-mol products you referenced if you are up to it.
I also noticed that just about all of the recipes for baked goods at the ADM website that call for one of their dried molasses powders also call for another form of sugar. This begs the question as to whether dry molasses powder alone is enough.
If you'd like to proceed with the ADM 65 DMP product and need a dough formulation, let me know. I think I would be aggressive with the amount of that molasses powder, if only to see if it is possible to get sufficient sweetness with only the dry molasses powder.
Peter
I wanted to ask you a question about raw or unrefined sugar, and if that would fit the profile of MM’s operations not using refined sugar in their dough, as they mentioned at http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html Raw or unrefined sugar still has some molasses in it as I understand.
Norma,
That is a good question. In fact, before I mentioned raw cane sugar to you in an earlier post I did some research on the subject. As you know, raw cane sugar is made by crystallizing the initial pressing of 100% pure sugar cane and, indeed, it does contain a small amount of molasses. The impression I got is that it takes a fair amount of additional processing beyond the first pressing to arrive at what we commonly call "refined" table sugar. It also appears that raw cane sugar is sold under the name "turbinado" sugar. I have a bag of Imperial Sugar Gold'N Natural turbinado sugar and the package uses expressions like "made from natural cane" to emphasize the natural and purportedly "healthier" and more "wholesome" form of that sugar. The leading brand of turbinado sugar is Sugar in the Raw. You might also be interested in knowing that the Sugar in the Raw brand of turbinado sugar was first introduced in 1974, the year that MM was formed: http://www.jlwfoodsales.com/principal_profile.cfm?id=167. So, raw cane sugar has been around for a very long time.
I even wondered whether MM might be using only raw cane sugar in its doughs. However, even though the turbinado sugar is tan colored, I think it would take too much of that sugar to get the desired degree of coloration of MM's dough balls. Also, I think it would be too thin a reed on which to base a claim that the dough contains molasses, with the implication that it is more than just a hint of it.
Of all of the "unrefined" "natural" forms of sweeteners, I would say that raw cane sugar may be the least expensive and with more stable pricing over time (unlike honey whose pricing and supply has been wildly erratic). So, if one were to use another form of natural sugar to complement molasses in a pizza dough in a commercial commissary setting, raw cane sugar would be my first choice. All marketing hype aside, I think that one can make out a case that raw cane sugar is not a "refined" sugar. At least I think that such a position is defensible enough to support a claim that MM is not using refined sugar in the dough and would be in line with the claims and language used by the producers of raw cane sugar in their promotion of raw cane sugar.
As far as the ADM 65 DMP product is concerned, I think I would give it a test drive since you already have it. I would perhaps try a combination of that product and raw cane sugar. If you would like me to come up with an MM test dough formulation to play around with, let me know.
Peter
Norma,
I will kick around some ideas for the next MM clone dough formulation for you to test out using the ADM 65 DMP product.
I noticed that Biz made mention of an MM commissary somewhere around Nashville. I thought that MM has only one commissary, somewhere in the Atlanta area. If there were one near the last MM store Biz visited, I think they would have had fresh dough balls, not frozen ones.
Peter
| Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (57%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%): Raw Cane Sugar (4%): ADM 65 DMP (4%): Total (169.6%): | 305.4 g | 10.77 oz | 0.67 lbs 174.08 g | 6.14 oz | 0.38 lbs 1.83 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.61 tsp | 0.2 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp 6.11 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.34 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 12.22 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs | 3.06 tsp | 1.02 tbsp 12.22 g | 0.43 oz | 0.03 lbs 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684 |
On another note, I had to stop at our local Country Store today to pick up a few things. I know the Country Store does carry many food products that my local supermarket doesn’t. I came across Natural Sucanat today while I was there. http://www.wholesomesweeteners.com/brands/Wholesome_Sweeteners/Fair_Trade_Certified_Organic_Sucanat.html
Did you ever try Sucanat, or do you think there could be a possibility that MM’s is using the Sucanat in their dough. It says on the package of Sucanat that it is cane sugar and molasses. In this article http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/354976/sugar_cane_natural_sucanat.html?cat=51 it says that Sucanat has a natural molasses flavor and can be used as a one-to one replacement for sugar. Turbinado vs. Sucanat http://www.ehow.com/about_5374032_turbinado-vs-sucanat.html
Norma,
I have heard about Sucanat but I have never tried it. I am not a big sugar user. A 4-lb bag of sugar typically lasts about 9 months in my home, and most of it is for my morning coffee. I must be slipping because a 4-lb bag of sugar used to last me about a year :-D.
I think it is because my brain is not addled by sugar that allows me to produce dough formulations so fast. This aside, I seriously doubt that MM is using Sucanat. I think it would be too costly to use when there are much cheaper alternatives if the objective is to add sweetness to a dough beyond what molasses itself might provide.
Since one of the articles you referenced mentioned turbinado sugar, I went to the Imperial website to see what is stated there as to the nature of its turbinado sugar. This is what I found, under the section about how sugar is processed:
All-natural Imperial Pure Cane Sugar and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar starts as sugar cane grown in Louisiana and Florida. The cane is harvested and transported to Imperial Sugar refining facilities. There, the cane is shredded, mixed with water and crushed. The resulting juice is mixed with naturally occurring minerals, then allowed to dry and form crystals. At this point, the crystals are called raw sugar or turbinado. The crystals are larger than the crystals you are used to on your table and have a slight brownish color. The raw sugar is then combined with more minerals to strip away impurities. The resulting white crystal is added to water and filtered through carbon to remove final impurities. The mixture is allowed to dry to form the all-natural, Imperial and Dixie Crystals Pure Cane Sugar you rely on for your recipes and beverages.
If I had to guess, I would say that perhaps the Sucanat sugar is a better form of turbinado sugar with more of the molasses.
Peter
As for a Nashville commissary, I am just basing that on info Peter shared from the MM website, where in their picture gallery for Nashville, they seem to be showing a commissary. Not 100% sure there is one, but it seems to imply it. Peter may have more info.
If you also want me to try another formulation this week, with regular molasses and raw sugar, or with the Sucanat with or without added molasses, I can do that. I didn’t have any more experiments really planned for this week. I would also try the formulation you set-forth for the MM#3 ADM 65 DMP Dough Clone formulation. Let me know if you also want me to try another formula for a MM clone attempt. I could make the dough and then just freeze it. There would be no watching how the dough ferments, so that would make everything easier.
Norma,
For now, I would like to see how the combination of the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar works out in terms of crust sweetness, since that has been a particularly vexing problem. However, I was wondering what would happen if one used say, 8-10%, pulverized toasted wheat germ and what that would do to the dough/crust in terms of color, taste and texture. That type of experiment could be done with any MM dough clone formulation since it simply means changing the ratio of the high-gluten flour and the wheat germ (e.g., from 97/3 to 90/10). All the other numbers would remain the same. There is no urgency for that that experiment. It can await the outcome of your latest test. Obviously, different people with different tastebuds will detect something like wheat germ at much lower levels than others whatever the type and form of the wheat germ, as Biz apparently has. But if the flavor of wheat germ jumps out at someone as being excessive or offensive and clearly not something that one would get with a real MM crust (for those who have actually tasted an MM crust), that can help define future experiments using lower levels.
Another possible test would be to use molasses (wet or dry) with something like honey. However, that is another experiment that can be deferred to a later date depending on the results of the tests in progress.
Peter
| Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%): Spring Water (54.5%): IDY (0.60%): Salt (2%): Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%): The Man at Market’s Wildflower Honey (4%): Brer Rabbit Liquid Molasses (4%): Total (167.1%): | 309.97 g | 10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs 168.93 g | 5.96 oz | 0.37 lbs 1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp 6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp 12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp 517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684 |
Norma,
To keep things simple, you might try the MM clone dough formulation as set forth below, which I created using the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html. This version is similar to the last one I gave you but will use a combination of Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and liquid honey. I will call this formulation the MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Honey Dough Clone Formulation. As you may know, there are more than 300 unique kinds of honey in the U.S. In due course, you may want to obtain samples of all of the known kinds of honey in the U.S. to store in the addition you are building to your home to house all of the samples of ingredients you have managed to convince suppliers to send to you.
Although I would be surprised to learn that MM uses honey in its dough, honey does have a lot of positive attributes in addition to sweetness, color and flavor. For example, in a frozen dough honey improves the rheological properties of the dough and protects the gluten from damage during freezing. It also significantly improves dough strength. If the wildflower honey that you have available to you is unprocessed, it will also have many enzymes that should be beneficial. If you are interested in reading more on this topic, you might take a look at the series of posts at the PMQ Think Tank starting at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4669&p=26951&hilit=#p26884.
In the dough formulation presented below, I made adjustments to the nominal hydration to compensate for the fact that liquid molasses includes 22% water and that honey includes 17% water. I calculate that the “adjusted” hydration (that takes the water in the molasses and honey into account) is about 56% and that the “effective” hydration (that also takes the oil into account) is about 58%. I believe that that value of effective hydration should keep the dough manageable.
You should prepare and freeze the finished dough ball as you have been doing with your recent experiments. As before, you may want to monitor the hydration of the finished dough and make any hydration adjustments that you deem necessary. Also, you may want to monitor the final color of the dough although I wouldn’t be too preoccupied with the final color inasmuch as the color of your wildflower honey will also have an effect on the final color of the dough.
In due course, I plan to make a test dough with a fair amount of toasted wheat germ (I will use the Kretschmer’s supermarket brand).
MM#4 Brer Rabbit/Wildflower Dough Clone Formulation*The Unbleached High-Gluten/Wheat Germ Blend comprises 300.67 grams (10.61 ounces) of unbleached (unbromated) high-gluten flour and 9.30 grams (0.33 ounces) of pulverized toasted wheat germ, based on a ratio of 97% high-gluten flour and 3% pulverized toasted wheat germ.
Unbleached High-Gluten Flour/Wheat Germ Blend* (100%):
Spring Water (54.5%):
IDY (0.60%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (2%):
The Man at Market’s Wildflower Honey (4%):
Brer Rabbit Liquid Molasses (4%):
Total (167.1%):309.97 g | 10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs
168.93 g | 5.96 oz | 0.37 lbs
1.86 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.62 tsp | 0.21 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
6.2 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.36 tsp | 0.45 tbsp
12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.77 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
12.4 g | 0.44 oz | 0.03 lbs | 1.79 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
517.95 g | 18.27 oz | 1.14 lbs | TF = 0.118684
Note: The nominal thickness factor = 0.11693 and corresponds to a dough ball weight of 18 ounces, for a single 14” pizza; the bowl residue compensation = 1.5%.
Peter
I guess my toasted wheat germ is from Dutch Valley. http://www.dutchvalleyfoods.com/products/flour-and-grains/grains/156056/wheat-germ-toasted-25lb I don’t know if different brands of toasted wheat germ will make any difference in a MM’s formulation or not.
I never thought how much the MM’s dough might cost for a member to try a dough. I guess you already did the calculations for how much one dough ball costs.
Norma,
I don't have any KASL but at King Arthur's price (excluding shipping charges) and using my costs for the rest of the ingredients (Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ, spring water, SAF IDY, Brer Rabbit molasses, honey, salt and soybean oil), it would cost me $1.97 for the dough using the Brer Rabbit/wildflower honey dough formulation I gave you. That is for a roughly 18-ounce dough ball. Using KABF and vital wheat gluten would lower that cost by quite a bit.
Peter
Norma,
The last cost number I saw for pizza dough at the PMQ Think Tank, earlier this year, was $0.02/ounce. Back in 2007, it was around $0.01-0.125/ounce. Those numbers are for a pretty standard pizza dough.
Peter
Looking at Biz’s recent photos at Reply 269 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg155842.html#msg155842 of the crumb of the MM pizza he had at the Farragut, TN MM unit, I am now inclined to believe that the MM dough is a tad lighter than what we have been making. Of course, the way the pizza is baked can have an effect on the crust coloration because of the caramelization of the sugars and the Maillard reactions but usually those effects will be in the outer crust.
Peter
Norma,
I made and froze another MM clone dough ball today that was the same as the last one I made but for the fact that I increased the amount of toasted wheat germ (Kretschmer’s brand) from 3% of the total flour blend to 10%. The wheat germ was first ground to a flour-like consistency before adding it to the flour blend. The rest of the flour blend was KABF and Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, and the rest of the ingredients were spring water, Brer Rabbit liquid molasses, Imperial turbinado (raw sugar cane), salt, IDY, and soybean oil. The only difference between the two dough formulations was the amount of wheat germ. Both dough balls weighed the same and had the same finished dough temperature.
As I was making the flour blend, I compared it against a sample of only the KABF and VWG and could not detect a noticeable difference in color. I also compared the flour blend with KABF alone and, again, I could not detect a noticeable difference. After making the dough in my Cuisinart food processor, I compared it against a brown coffee filter and, again, I did not detect a difference in color. I also compared the finished dough ball against the last one I made with the smaller amount of wheat germ and they both looked alike to me. I did not detect the presence of the ground wheat germ in the finished dough. The increased amount of wheat germ did not seem to affect the hydration of the flour blend. All of these comparison tests seem to suggest that the main contributor to dough and crust color is the molasses and possibly the turbinado sugar.
In a way, I was kind of hoping for a dramatic difference in color of the latest dough since that would have helped better define the amount of wheat germ that might be used in a real MM dough. Maybe the ultimate taste test will be instructive on this point. I am hoping that I will be disgusted with the taste of the pizza crust made from that dough. That would make life easier for all of us.
Looking at Biz’s recent photos at Reply 269 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg155842.html#msg155842 of the crumb of the MM pizza he had at the Farragut, TN MM unit, I am now inclined to believe that the MM dough is a tad lighter than what we have been making. Of course, the way the pizza is baked can have an effect on the crust coloration because of the caramelization of the sugars and the Maillard reactions but usually those effects will be in the outer crust.
Peter
I have a 24-hour ball in the fridge for tonight that is using 5% molasses, 1.75% salt, 2% Germ, and 3% oil. Wanting to see if I can recreate that first attempt's sweetness. I still have a chunk of the actual MM crust from my Farragut visit, but it's a few days old now and probably not worth anything other than color comparison. I will take pics for sure.
Norma,
I haven't reheated my slices yet, so I don't have anything to report. However, I noticed the corn meal seems a little different on the first pie. What's up with that? >:D :-D
I wonder how much I could increase the molasses before it would become noticeably darker to the naked eye. I still think my last attempt wasn't quite sweet enough, but it was much better than my previous attempts.
I am starting to brainstorm too about the affects of longer or shorter fermentation periods and/or the affects of yeast amounts on the sweetness in the finished product. I don't know much about such things, but part of me is thinking that if the yeast has less time to metabolize the sugars in the molasses, then they'll be present to the taster. Or if very little yeast is used and a longer cold fermentation is employed, maybe the same thing would be true. But this is all based on my very limited knowledge of baking chemistry.
Norma,
I was anxiously awaiting the results of your latest MM clones inasmuch as I, too, made a clone MM pizza yesterday. In my case, I used 4% Brer Rabbit liquid molasses and 4% turbinado (raw cane) sugar (and 3% toasted Kretschmer's wheat germ). I detected a small increase in the sweetness of the finished crust but it was not like the degree of sweetness I detected in the sample MM pizza I had in Florida. I am beginning to wonder whether MM is using some kind of super sweet molasses or else it is loading up the dough with a lot of another sweetener that is much sweeter than molasses (see more on this below in my post directed to Biz). Maybe one of the other ADM dried molasses products, such as one of the ADM Dri-Mol dried molasses products, is sweeter on the palate than the other ADM dried molasses products you tried.
I still have one frozen MM clone dough ball left, the one I mentioned earlier with the 10% Kretschmer's toasted wheat germ. I will perhaps make a pizza out of that dough ball tomorrow (I am still working on leftovers). I will, of course, be interested in the effects of the larger amount of wheat germ, which was basically the sole purpose of the test, but I am not expecting a material increase in the sweetness of the finished crust.
I agree with Biz that your second pizza, the one made using the ADM 65 DMP, looks to be closer from the standpoint of crumb coloration to the MM pizza crust I had in Florida. I'm happy to hear that the dough formulation for that pizza worked out so well for you.
I also enjoyed the videos showing your efforts to toss and spin the skins. I think we are in the right spot from the standpoint of hydration of the various MM clone dough formulations. I have not had any problems with overextensibility of the skins I have made. I could toss and spin them as long as I wanted.
Peter
Norma,
It's entirely up to you as to whether you should request some Dri-Mol dry molasses products from ADM. However, it is always interesting and useful to try out different products in order to learn what they can do and their limitations. The Dri-Mol products are supposed to be lighter in color and, hence, may have more sugar, but you won't know for sure until you actually try them.
Maybe you and Steve can combine your pizza making skills and Steve's beer-making prowess, get some real tattoos ala Guy Fieri-style, and open up your own pizza emporium featuring your clones of the MM pizzas :-D. Your overhead would be considerably less than at MM so your pizza prices would be much lower than what I have seen on MM's menus. Maybe I can even improve upon MM doughs through some further testing. If so, I will disclose the results only to you (and to Biz for being such a good sport and help on this project) so that someone else doesn't run with the idea after seeing it on the forum. Or maybe you can sell the recipe to MM itself, if only to keep it out of circulation ;D. You will note that the page views for this thread have jumped recently, so that would seem to suggest that there is interest on what we have been doing.
Peter
Norma,
I can see how an MM dough clone formulation could be of value to you in your business because it is so easy to make and freeze the dough balls until you are ready to use them. And they are so easy to work with in my opinion.
MM's dough formulation is a valuable one and MM takes great pains to protect that formulation. It is hard to ascribe a dollar value to that formulation but it has to be large. However, the formulation is only a piece of the total puzzle, albeit a necessary one. It is the artwork and music and beer and entertainment and all of the other things that take up most of the investment dollars. But, that said, the licensees have to be protected so that someone doesn't gain access to the dough formulation and use it in a way that is antithetical to MM's efforts to grow the chain (MM is in now in 15 states and the District of Columbia) and against the economic interests of its licensees (MM has essentially become a full-time licensing company). One member sent me an email recently telling me that he took a look at the MM facilities in Atlanta using Google Earth and said that it looked like the facility was as tight as Fort Knox. I had already viewed the facility from an aerial perspective (and posted the link in an earlier post) but I used Google Earth to take a look for myself and I think that he is right. It is not a place for dumpster diving.
A few more experiments and I hope to capture what MM is doing, or to move a step or two closer. However, I will be discreet and judicious in disclosing what I learn and exercise greater control over what I conclude and reveal, although you Steve and Biz will always be privy to what I learn. I am not saying that I have or will crack the MM dough recipe. I would rather improve it. There is already plenty of information in this thread to allow others to work on their own MM clones. After all the time and effort that has been devoted to research and trying to find all of the answers, I am not anxious to lay out dough formulations for those who come to the forum solely for dough recipes for their favorite pizzas.
Peter
It was the result of this simple test that started me thinking about how much sweetness molasses can actually deliver to a finshed crust. That was the main reason why I started looking at honey and raw cane sugar to supplement the molasses and as the probable source of the sweetness in the MM finished crusts. To date, I have not seen anything to suggest that MM is using only molasses as the sweetener. As I noted in my last post to Norma, there would have to be a super sweet molasses out there somewhere to be able to do this.
If you have any ideas of a different formula for me to try for next week, let me know. I am always in for trying new formulas.
Just because molasses is seemingly always touted as an ingredient doesn't mean it's the only sweetener being used.
Just based on sort of gut instinct, I am thinking they may be using honey or some kind of raw/organic/natural sugar/evaporated cane juice. The other total wildcard idea would be the Sorghum Theory. Since I still feel that a lot of people think molasses=sorghum and vice versa, it's not outside the realm of possibility that the original ingredient used was sorghum but it was corrupted at some point to "molasses" based on the Southern vernacular. Perhaps a stretch, but I am leaning more and more towards at least attempting a dough with only sorghum as the sweetener. Depending on that outcome, I think the next thing I may try is honey with the 5% molasses. Then if those paths lead to dead ends, I may try to tinker with the yeast and fermentation periods, but I'm not sure if those alone can result in enhanced sweetness over what we've already seen.
So probably for this Sunday I will try a sorghum or molasses+honey recipe and keep you posted.
Norma,
Since you had such good luck and results using the ADM 65 DMP and the raw cane sugar, you might want to continue to play around with that combination while Biz and I play around with the ingredients that home pizza makers might have available to them. If you want to try to get less crust color, you could lower the amount of ADM 65 DMP to around 3.5% and increase the amount of raw cane sugar to around 7% to see if that gives a jolt in sweetness. I think you should be OK with the hydration but I am sure that you can tweak the hydration if you find it necessary to do so. If you need any help with the formulation, let me know.
From what I can tell, the sweetest molasses product is going to come from the first boil and be the lightest in color. So, unless there is a super sweet molasses product out there that MM is using and we have not yet identified, and you plan to approach ADM for further samples like the Dri-Mol products, you will perhaps want to look for a first boil product if it exists at ADM.
Peter
After looking at Bob’s Red Mill Fructose http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3
and then looking at the nutritional data at http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-Fructose-32-Ounce/dp/B000KELHR6/ref=sr_1_3?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1318503792&sr=1-3#nutrition-facts it says this product is best if used in applications other than cooking and baking, so I guess MM’s wouldn’t use this product in their dough. Then in another PDF. Article http://www.fructose.org/pdf/ADAFructosefactsheetfinal.pdf
it says that crystalline fructose does boost sweetness and cake height (in baked goods”). I am not sure if I am understanding what the differences are in fructose.
Norma,
Fructose can and has been used in pizza dough before. Pizza Hut once used it as a dough ingredient for a pan pizza dough. See, for example, page 4 of the pdf document at http://www.espanol.pizzahut.com/menu/nutritioninfo/documents/ph_ingredients.pdf. I believe that formulation was before PH went to frozen dough for its stores. The good news about fructose is that it is considerably sweeter than sucrose, by about 1.2-1.6 times. The not so good news is that it is not the yeast's favorite sugar and is metabolized more slowly than other reducing sugars and translates into a longer fermentation. Remember the little experiment that November referenced at http://www.uni-regensburg.de/Fakultaeten/nat_Fak_IV/Organische_Chemie/Didaktik/Keusch/D-fermentation_sugar-e.htm? However, if you use other sugars along with the fructose, I would think that you should be OK to use the fructose in the dough. In a frozen dough context, or in a short fermentation context, it might even be a good idea if the yeast doesn't use the fructose too quickly since that might lead to more residual sugar at the time of baking to contribute to both sweetness and crust coloration.
Combining different types of sugars to achieve a desired degree of sweetness in a finished crust while operating within a desired window of fermentation can be a somewhat treacherous exercise--one that can only be resolved accurately by resorting to some pretty complex math or conducting a lot of experimentation. November alluded to this problem in the next to last paragraph of his post at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4159.msg34710/topicseen.html#msg34710.
Peter
Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.
I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks. Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.
Norma and Biz,
When I was researching the different categories of molasses, I discovered that there is an even sweeter molasses called Fancy. It is about 40% sweeter than the first boil molasses. See, for example, http://whatscookingamerica.net/Q-A/Molassas.htm. I understand that the Fancy molasses is also sometimes called "Gold Star" but I believe that that may be a trademark of the Crosby molasses company which, as previously noted, is a Canadian company whose products may not available in the U.S. (at one time it looks like Amazon carried the Crosby Gold Star molasses but that no longer seems to be the case). I would think that someone like Malt Products Corporation (http://www.maltproducts.com/products.molasses.html) or Domino Sugar (http://www.dominospecialtyingredients.com/?pageId=1090&rowId=11207) might have a light colored Fancy wet molasses. However, one would have to be a professional to obtain samples from those companies.
Peter
Norma,
I would like to go back to the liquid molasses for a while, so at Malt Products I would ask for a sample of the liquid molasses, Code #732, and at Domino Sugar I would ask for a sample of either the Homemaid Molasses or a light BSM Molasses. To avoid having to go back for more samples, I think I would call Malt Products and Domino Sugar first and ask them which of their products is of the Fancy variety, or closest to the Fancy variety.
Peter
Norma,
I would like to go back to the liquid molasses for a while.
I noticed that the Grandma's Molasses that they were using is unsulphured. I wonder if the sulphured (I am spelling this as it is on the label) version is available also. Does sulpher make the yeast not eat all of the sugar as to retain more sweetness?
Norma,
I recently conducted a couple of interesting Google searches relating to the claim that MM uses no refined white sugars in its dough or pizza sauce. In the first search, I used the keyword string of “Mellow Mushroom” and “refined white sugar” (in quotes as given). I got a total of 44 hits. Of those hits, only one was attributable to MM itself. It is the now well-known MM webpage that you and I have cited at http://mellowmushroom.com/public/old_site1/aboutus.html.
For the second search, I used the keyword string of “Mellow Mushroom” and “refined sugar”. As can be seen, the only difference is that I left the word “white” out of the search. This time, I got a total of 739 hits. Interestingly, none of those items was attributable to MM as a corporate entity. The items were references to refined sugars by licensees and writers of articles and other sources, but not by MM corporate. There is no way of knowing whether MM corporate has acquiesced in the use by others of the broader expression “refined sugar” (or the plural version “refined sugars”). There is a big difference between “refined white sugars” and “refined sugars”.
I personally believe that the term “refined” is a slippery one. While I was in the supermarket, I couldn’t help but notice how many sugar products were touted as “pure” and “natural”, including products like light and brown sugar with molasses. Are light and brown sugar refined? It seems to me that just about all sugar products are subjected to some refinement, arguably including molasses, and perhaps even more so with the dry molasses products. You might also recall from what was posted earlier in this thread at Reply 18 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg149648.html#msg149648, the only sweetener mentioned by MM as being used in the MM dough is molasses. There is no reference to “refined white sugar(s)” or “refined sugar(s)”, and no reference to any other form of sugar being used other than molasses. If molasses is really sorghum or sorghum-molasses, then that possibility might be explored. That is why I am interested in the results that Biz achieves using the sorghum he recently purchased.
Peter
Norma
Norma, what's the recipe(formula) for this last pizza you made, shown in posts #375 - #384?
Looks delicious. Thanks.
Norma,
In the dough formulation you posted, did you weigh the fructose or did you use the volume measurement shown in the dough formulation?
Peter
Norma,
No, I did not see the items you referenced. However, while I was at the new pizzeria's website, even before I read all of your post, I did send an email to the new place inquiring as to possible similarities between the pizzeria's dough and the MM dough (I mentioned the high-gluten flour and wheat germ and Vitamin E). I don't know what kind of response I will get, if any, but nothing ventured, nothing gained.
Apparently, Earl "Rocky" Reeves left MM in 2007. Maybe his non-compete time period ran out.
Peter
On another note, what product (dried molasses) from ADM flour does someone think I should try in an experiment for this coming week for a MM’s clone? I am not sure from the spec sheets which one to try and also how much refined sugar (raw sugar or fructose) to add to either of the dried molasses products.
Norma,
Looking at the brief descriptions of the two ADM dried molasses products at http://www.adm.com/en-US/Milling/drysweeteners/Pages/Molasses.aspx, I get the impression that both products are light colored but that the Dri-Mol 60 product is lighter in color than the Dri-Mol 604 product. If so, I would be inclined to start with the Dri-Mol 60 product. It's hard to know how much of that product and the fructose you should use since the spec sheets seem to be silent as to the types and quantities of sugars that are in the Dri-Mol product. I think I would aim high on both the molasses product and the fructose, with the greater emphasis on the fructose and sweetness at this point more so than the color of the dough and crust. If you can get obvious sweetness in the finished crust, you can always adjust the molasses piece up or down depending on the color of the dough that yielded that sweetness in the crust. As you can see, you have to do tests. It's a juggling act that changes with each set of ingredients. In my latest test dough, I am using 7.5% Grandma's Original molasses and 7% raw cane sugar. I am also using 2.5% Kretschmer's toasted, ground wheat germ, mainly for texture and flavor. That percent is about the percent that is in the flour before it is stripped out during milling to make white flour.
Peter
I recently conducted a couple of interesting Google searches relating to the claim that MM uses no refined white sugars in its dough or pizza sauce.....
.... There is no way of knowing whether MM corporate has acquiesced in the use by others of the broader expression “refined sugar” (or the plural version “refined sugars”). There is a big difference between “refined white sugars” and “refined sugars”.
Peter
Is there any way that plain old corn syrup could fly under "using no refined white sugars" , in conjunction with the molasses ?
Gene,
.....I suppose it could even include corn syrup.....
Peter
Ms. Pacman, that's great ;D
Norma, you mentioned enjoying the crust, but how did you like the toppings? I would think that, compared to the caliber of pizzas you're using to making, that cheese would almost be inedible.
Also, for anyone that frequents MM... is it typical for pie makers to open the dough so awkwardly? I'm not expecting Tony Gemignani skills, but if it's your job and you're doing it all the time, you really should have a little more panache than that. Unless they were nervous in front of the camera.
Edit: That pretzel looks gooooood.
Norma.
Thanks for posting. I as well just visited the MM here at their new location here in Hilton Head Island SC while on vacation (back to jersey tomorrow :'() Same mall new buidlding and much nicer /bigger space. I had never been to a MM but got the thumbs up from locals i spoke to. Also just opened a Gusepies?chain? coals fired pizza (will have to wait til next visit) I also grabbed a few pics as well I checked kitchen carefully as allways, there was a different 5 lbs bag of cheese not grande, but noticed it was low moisture Low fat Mozz. going on, red and green label ending on mo? could not make it out all else looks similar. Topping, I had Pepperoni ans sausage , and a side of meatballs all were very good. I was happy with the taste of crust and will post pics when I get home. Over all as mentioned a cut above the rest of the chains Heavy on the cornmeal !bowls full everywhere used for added crunch and release. but pie was edible for sure.
John
Place was brand new as well very clean, fun shroom, decorations , and comfortable space , they know what the people want for sure the salads and dressings were good as well. place was packed! will put up pics asap.
John
Scott,
I loved the toppings on the MM’s pizza. Did you see the picture of the Grande cheese. Grande cheese was the cheese used at the Washington, DC’s MM’s.
This new MM’s just opened this past Monday, so the pie makers are only getting started learning to toss dough.
Thanks for saying the pretzels looked good. They were and they are made out of he same dough as the pizza. I just reheated one pretzel when I got home and it was still nice and moist.
Did you see on the peel handle that it said, "Nom Nom Nom"? I really like how that peel was decorated.
Norma
The shop is new. That makes sense. Thanks for clarifying that.
I am a big fan of Grande, but barely melted mozz is a huge pet peeve of mine. It always seems to me that the cheese on your pizzas is always well melted, but if you enjoyed the toppings at MM, I'll take your word for it.
Norma,
That is a nice pictorial. Thank you for doing it. I am also glad that you and your daughter had a good time and enjoyed the pizzas and other items you had at the DC MM location and the items you brought back home.
I have several comments and questions that get more to what we have been doing in this thread:
1. Were you able to learn whether the DC MM location uses fresh or frozen dough balls and, if so, were you able to learn anything about their dough management protocol (e.g., fermentation time, temper time, defrost time if frozen dough balls are used, and whether frozen dough balls, if used, are ever defrosted and re-frozen for later use, etc.)?
2. Since you did not show any photos of a dough ball in your possession, I take that to mean that the DC MM location does not sell dough balls. Is that correct?
3. Were you able to gauge the color of the MM dough balls compared with the MM clone dough balls you have been making? Or even compared with a brown coffee filter?
4. It looks like the pizzas you had at the DC MM location were 10” pizzas and that the pizza you took back to PA was bigger than 10”. Is that correct?
5. Apart from the visual characteristics of the MM crust as shown in your pictorial, can you describe the other aspects of the MM crust, including taste, flavor, sweetness, color, chewiness/crispiness, texture, degree of doughiness (if any), stiffness/droopiness, and also in relation to the MM clone doughs and pizzas you have been making?
6. In observing the handling of the dough balls by the MM workers, I concluded that the hydration of those dough balls is in line with what we have been using. In fact, the handling aspects of the dough balls, including the formation of the skins, were essentially the same as I have been experiencing with my MM clone dough balls, even when using the KABF and added vital wheat gluten (VWG). Did you get the same impression? I did not see any real slapping of the skins from hand to hand to open up the dough balls. This is harder to do with a small skin for a 10” pizza, but this leads me to believe that in the videos we have seen the dough balls were perhaps tempered for a fairly long time before opening. Or else, a much higher hydration value was used, which would appear to be inconsistent with the "stiffness" of the dough balls shown in your pictorial and the videos we have seen.
7. You mentioned a bake time of 10-14 minutes. I note the use of the Montague deck ovens but do you know the bake temperature that relates to the 10-14 minute bake time? For comparison purposes, you may recall from Reply 40 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg151292.html#msg151292 that I was told that a typical bake time was up to 10 minutes (depending on what was in the oven at the time) at a bake temperature of around 550 degrees F, using a Blodgett deck oven. Also, in the video at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&feature=related, Justin mentions a bake temperature of 475 degrees F and a bake time of 20 minutes. I believe that with some tests I can match those conditions in my standard electric home oven but I would either have to use a higher oven rack position, a lower bake temperature than I have been using, or some combination of both, or possibly a combination of two pizza stones with the proper oven rack positioning and bake time and temperature. Unfortunately, we have been trying to divine the MM dough formulation and a proper bake protocol simultaneously. In your case at market, your options are more limited, given that your oven temperature is dedicated to the NY style pizzas that you have been making there.
8. I see that you confirmed the use of the Grande mozzarella cheese. I would say that they are perhaps using the Grande low-moisture, part-skim mozzarella cheese as described at http://www.grandecheese.com/products/Pages/Product_Spec.aspx?ProductMasterID=18. If that is correct, it would make sense if one is interested in keeping things simple. Also, if there is no planetary mixer in the store, there would not be the option of using an attachment with the mixer to do in-store shredding of cheeses.
9. Was there anything particularly noteworthy about the sauce? I read that the sauce is made from fresh-pack tomatoes. Were you able to tell if that is the case?
10. Were you able to learn anything else that is glaring or that we have been missing in our efforts to reverse engineer and clone the MM dough/pizza?
To the above, I would add that yesterday I made a pizza using a dough with 7.5% Grandma’s Original molasses, 7% raw cane sugar, and 2.5% Kretschmer’s ground/toasted wheat germ (plus KABF and VWG). Finally, I was able to get very noticeable sweetness. In fact, if anything, the crust was too sweet. Also, the sweetness seemed less complex than the crusts I have made with more molasses but less raw cane sugar. I am now inclined to raise the amount of molasses and lower the amount of raw cane sugar even if that means a darker dough and finished crust. I may even leave out the wheat germ since 2.5% did not seem to make a material difference.
Peter
Norma,
It is interesting that the kitchen manager mentioned the possibility of using brown sugar in addition to the molasses. Yesterday, after I made and tasted the pizza, I thought to use brown sugar next time in addition to molasses and balancing their amounts as best I can to achieve the desired end product. When I was at the supermarket recently and noting the dizzying array of sugar products, the brown sugar products were described as natural products using pure cane sugar, etc. I was always of the impression that molasses was added to refined white sugar to make brown sugar but at least the brown sugar is not a "refined white sugar". Rather, it might be a "refined brown sugar" and, as such, would pass muster. It would also add more molasses.
The vitamin that was mentioned could be the Vitamin E. Vitamin E is stripped out of flour as it is being milled as well as most of the other vitamins, including the B vitamins. The flour is later enriched to add back the B vitamins but not the Vitamin E. I have never seen a flour that is enriched with Vitamin E. I studied the specs of all of the GM flours and did a search on this a while back and came up completely empty, with almost no hits. The Vitamin E is principally in the wheat germ. However, if the wheat germ is defatted, or possibly if it is ground into a powder and heated as a result, there is a loss of the Vitamin E. As was discussed before, it is then possible to add a synthetic Vitamin E (d-alpha tocopherol acetate) back into the wheat germ to replace the Vitamin E that was lost.
Peter
I was able to gauge the color of the MM’s dough balls, compared to what I have been making. My last attempt was about the closest in color in the dough ball and finished crumb. The color of the dough balls at MM’s did look a little darker than a brown coffee filter. The pizza I brought back home also was a 10” pizza. I want to reheat one slice today for myself, give one slice to my mother, and also do something with one slice for Steve. What do you suggest I do with the slice for Steve to preserve it for Tuesday?
The taste of the crumb in the rim wasn’t as sweet as I thought it would be. It only had a tiny bit of sweetness. Some of my attempts were much sweeter in the finished pizzas. The only thing I could taste in the crust was molasses. The slice did have a chewiness to it, and even after it was just baked had a droop. The bottom crust wasn’t real crisp. The slice could be folded right away as can be seen in the pictures. There wasn’t any doughiness that I could detect in the slice. As I said the color of the crumb was lighter. I ate two slices, and my daughter also ate two slices and we both agreed that my attempts weren’t like a real MM’s pizza in the amount of sweetness in the crust as my last few attempts. There is something about their crust that is something different, but I can’t put my finger on what the difference is. My last attempt did have almost the same amount of chewiness. As I said in my last post, I now wonder if we have the right hydration, and maybe if it needs to be lowered a little after watching how I though the dough looked and handled. I still can’t understand how light the crumb is in taste and texture, and was how that is achieved. As can be seen in the pictures of the crumb, it was light in texture. They were using the Grande low-moisture part skim shredded mozzarella. I tried to get a better picture of it, but didn’t want them to see that I was trying to take a picture of the cheese. The sauce just had a good taste, and didn’t taste sweet at all. I will have to taste the sauce again on a reheated slice. The tomato sauce did taste very fresh.
I don’t know what to tell you about glaring or what we might be missing in trying to clone the MM’s pizza, because I wouldn’t know what to do to try and make the pizza the same as MM’s. Maybe you will get some ideas from my posts. As I posted the pie I tasted almost tasted like it came out of a WFO. I can’t understand that with the long bake. ???
I see you are also having problems in deciding how to change your dough formulation.
If you can think of a formula to set-forth with brown sugar and molasses, I would be willing to try it for this Tuesday. I knew molasses is added to white sugar to make brown sugar, because of our use of brown sugar in our Caramel Corn business. I know from adding brown sugar and corn syrup together from making the caramel corn, the taste is sweet when the caramel corn is finished, but not that really sweet, if that makes any sense. I asked how the crumb of the MM’s pies became so nice and light brown in color, and the kitchen manager said it was from the molasses. I find you comment about Vitamin E interesting. What do you suggest to do about that?
Edit: I didn't have time to search, but is there any meaning from what the sign that MM's had posted on the one door that said Dough Boys Enterprises LLC? Is there anything you want me to look for in the whole pie I brought home? It is still whole.
Norma,
First things first. To preserve the slice of MM pizza for Steve, you might want to immerse it in embalming fluid from a local mortuary. No, just kidding. I think I would freeze it. The slice might be a bit soggy upon defrosting, but if you reheat it in your deck oven at market, that might drive off some of the moisture and let Steve at least taste the crust and its relative sweetness.
On the matter of crust sweetness, the MM pizza I had in Florida had a distinct sweetness. Maybe it is because I use so little sugar in my diet that I have a lower threshhold for detecting sweetness. It drives me crazy when I pick up sugar in products where I don't think that it should even be present, or to the degree that it appears to be present in the products. As you may know, when food processors got rid of fat and some of the salt in their products, they replaced them with sugar and other sweeteners. In the case of MM, it is also possible that using messy liquid molasses, as the MM rep told me is used, that the manufacturing process in the MM commissary has variations in molasses from dough batch to dough batch. The reason I asked you about the dough management protocol at the MM DC location is because I wanted to see if they were doing something that might reduce the sweetness in the finished crust.
In one of my first experiments in this thread, I used 7% molasses (Grandma's Mild Flavor molasses), 2% oil and 54% hydration. And no other sweetener. The "adjusted" hydration to compensate for the water content of the molasses was 55.54%. When I added the 2% oil, I got an "effective" hydration of 57.54%. However, while I thought that the finished crust was delicious, principally because of the molasses flavor, the crust (and the dough from which it was made) was much darker than an MM dough and the dough was hard to open up to form a skin because it was stiff. That is what led me to increase the hydration. When I later switched over to the Grandma's Original molasses, which is a first boil product, I was able to use more of that molasses without adversely affecting the dough and crust coloration because it is a lighter molasses. Whether the samples of liquid molasses that you will soon be receiving allow you to use more of those products remains to be seen despite the admonition that were given to you by the lady at Domino's Specialty Ingredients. My thinking at this point is to drop back or even eliminate the added turbinado (raw cane sugar) and stick with the liquid Grandma's Original molasses but use more of it, mainly for the complexity of the sweetness of the molasses as opposed to the somewhat cloying sweetness of the raw cane sugar. Maybe we have been looking forlovesweetness in all the wrong places.
On the matter of the tenderness and moistness of the finished crust, November once indicated that oil and sugar both have the capacity to retain moisture although oil is better at retaining moisture before the dough is baked and sugar is better at retaining the moisture during baking (see Reply 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5043.msg42739/topicseen.html#msg42739). I had lowered the amount of oil that I first started playing around with to make the finished crust less breadlike and more dense and chewy. I think I would rather increase the amount of molasses rather than increasing the amount of oil, even if it means a darker dough and crust.
Peter
I have one other observation I have wondered about since I was on the way home last evening. I saw the pie makers open the dough for my pies, dress my pies, and watched them baked in the oven. I saw them take my pies out of the oven, but than sat down to wait for my pies. When the pie maker removed the pies from the oven, I didn’t watch how the melted butter with garlic was brushed on, or how the Parmesan cheese was applied. They take the pies back somewhere to do that. It makes me wonder how the pies rim then gets so brown and glossy looking, when it wasn’t like that when they first took it out of the oven. None of the pies coming out of the oven has that brown glossing looking rim. I now wish I would have tried to watch how they did that if I could have watched. Did anyone else watch that process when they were at a MM’s pizzeria?
Norma,
I recall seeing a couple of MM videos where there was a fellow next to the oven who applied the garlic butter to the crust and dusted it with grated cheese. I seem to recall in one of the videos that the garlic butter was in a clear container. I tried to find that particular video but there are so many MM-related videos that I couldn't find it even though I thought it was referenced in this thread. However, I did find this video, at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=albTZa4xlJw&feature=related, that also shows a fellow next to the oven putting something on the pizza with a brush, with a cheese shaker in the same general work area. I couldn't make out what he was dabbing on the pizza. After we struggled trying to find out why the crusts were not sweet, I even wondered whether the MM workers who made the MM pizza I had put something like honey on the rim so that the grated cheese would stick better and not get absorbed into the garlic butter yet make the crust taste sweet. To test out this theory, I put some honey on the rim of the crust of one of my test pizzas. The rim was sweeter but it was not the same kind of sweetness I remembered. Maybe they are putting something like regular sugar or a sugar syrup in the garlic butter or in another container. That might give the rim the glossiness you mentioned.
The use of cornmeal on the top of the skin is shown in the video with Dustin at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lvixfngmz-g&feature=related.
Peter
I am back here are the few pics I got from the new Mellow Mushroom location in Hilton Head Island SC
Norma,
Sometimes it makes sense to take a break from the action. But if you are interested in trying out another MM clone, I am willing to assist. I would just need to know what ingredients you want to use. I have been assuming that you have been using an unbleached high-gluten flour but I couldn't recall whether you had used the Grandma's Original molasses yet.
Peter
Yes Norma I detected a sweetness in the crust that I had a hard time to put my finger on the taste. Cake Yes My crumb and texutre was very similar to yours quite tight, small, Cake like ? not High gluten chewy from what I remember. I am thinking they do not do a long fermentation which does not give it time to develope much flavor. Maybe that is why they put the cheese on the rim and stuff other flavors in there? I think the sauce had a different flavor as well. I tried to get a suace only bite to see if I could get the tomatoe but there were alot of flavors spices going on in the sauce as well. I do prefer a good NY style bit thinner, or cracker but i dont know many chains that are making anything I could eat on a regular basis . I only tried this because the locals said go and I wanted to see the buzz about this thread. I liked the overall taste and as far as chains go I feel it is very good. They put out alot of pies I counted 10 people in the kutchen 4-5 on the full length pizza table.
I am home now and guess what I am making :chef: 100% caputo last night
Pizza Napolitano :pizza: tonight
miss it after 2 weeks and its beautiful outside !
good luck with the cloning I will be watching now for sure
John
Turns out I know the wife of the guy that owns our local Mellow Mushroom store in Decatur, Ga.
I will probably see her in sometime in the next couple weeks. Post a list of questions and I will see what I can find out.
Norma,
I think it makes sense to try using a combination of Grandma's Original molasses and brown sugar. That thought crossed my mind when I was at the supermarket recently, as I reported, and saw the light and brown sugars and wondered whether they were refined sugars. It was the "refined white sugar(s)" versus "refined sugar(s)" issue that led me to call MM.
Where we are missing useful information is in relation to the protocol for the frozen dough balls. I saw a video yesterday where the MM pizza maker mentioned placing the frozen dough balls into the cooler to let them defrost. However, he didn't say whether it was one day, two days, or maybe even three days--or maybe something different. From a fermentation standpoint, it makes a big difference whether you are using one, two or three days of defrost/fermentation. For example, if the fermentation time in the cooler is long, say, three days, the protease enzymes can attack the gluten structure and cause release of the water from its chemical bond. That could make the dough more extensible even though it might look like it is quite dense, and the dough might open up more easily even if it is cold. I'm guessing here. Also, knowing the defrost/fermentation protocol could also tell us more about the amount of yeast, and maybe other ingredients, one might start out with to fit the fermentation period. As we speculated before, maybe the defrost/fermentation period determines how sweet the finished crust is. Before I forget, I am going to pose some questions to GlennC. for when he visits the Decatur, GA MM store soon.
In your case, you might try using a fair amount of Grandma Original molasses with either light or brown sugar, with the goal being to end up with a final dough color that is close to the color of an MM dough. There is no easy mathematical way of determining how much of the two ingredients to use to achieve that objective. So, some experimentation will be required. Maybe something like 7% Grandma's Original molasses and about 4% brown sugar will work. You can also lower the nominal hydration by a percent if you think that is called for based on your recent observations at the DD MM location. You might skip the wheat germ this time also. I am thinking of making an MM clone dough ball and just watch it go over a cycle of two or three days after moving it from the freezer to my refrigerator compartment to see how it changes over the entire period.
Peter
Norma,
Today I made a clone MM dough ball with a hydration of 54%, soybean oil at 3%, light brown sugar at 4% and Grandma's Original molasses at 7%. Light brown sugar has around 3.6% molasses, so the 7% molasses inches up a little bit. It is hard to know from photos and videos when you have matched the dough color of an MM dough. You would have to place one of your clone dough balls right next to a real MM dough ball. However, I believe that around 7% Grandma's Original molasses comes quite close. I was looking for a more golden-tan color than a pure tan color and I believe that I achieved it. Now I'd like to see what effect the non-molasses part of the light brown sugar has on final crust sweetness. If it is too sweet, I can raise the amount of Grandma's Original molasses and lower the light brown sugar, or visa versa if the crust is not sweet enough. But sweetness alone is not enough. I want the complexity of sweetness that molasses brings.
It is often tricky to extract information out of people without sounding knowledgeable and tipping your hand. You almost have to conduct yourself like Lieutenant Columbo, the TV detective that Peter Falk made famous. You want them to think that you are somewhat of a harmless, bumbling klutz. But behind the klutz facade is a scheme that gets the information.
Peter
I wanted to ask you a question about when you ate your pie at the MM’s location you visited. Was your crumb cake like and dense as John said his was, or was your crumb like the pictures I posted?
Norma,
I forgot to answer your question regarding the texture of the crumb of the MM pizza I had in Florida. No, it was not cake-like. It was like you showed in your photos. In retrospect, I can see how the crumb had an alveole web-like appearance as you might see in a cake, and there was sweetness like a cake might have, but the words cake or cake-like did not cross my mind. Also, the rim was fairly dense but got lighter as one moved from the rim to the center of the pizza.
With regard to volumes, pizza operators like MM have sophisticated POS systems that track just about everything imaginable, including sales and sales by period. Since the DC MM operation is so new, it may take a while to populate the POS database but I would imagine that the folks who handle franchising for MM can give the new MM managers a pretty good idea as to what to expect.
Peter
This is just an off the wall idea. What if the dough was actually two separate dougs. For example make a dough with all purpose flour and another with high gluten flour. make the first tight dough ball made with all purpose or bread flour then suround, wrap the dough ball in high gluten flour mix.
Wonder if you would have the bread "cake" texture inside with the crisp high gluten flour shell?
Just thinking out loud- or " ouside the box".
I'm open to suggestions on which sweetener and at what formula %. My one concern with brown sugar (assuming the same molasses percent) is that it would make the dough even darker, which would be beyond an MM color.
This picture is my frozen dough ball at market today. The dough ball had 7% Grandma’s Original Molasses and 2% light brown sugar in the formula.
Norma
Biz,
Until Norma gets the samples of liquid molasses from commercial sources to see if MM might be using a similar product, I think a combination of 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 4% light brown sugar (I used the Imperial brand for my last dough) should get you close to an MM dough from a color standpoint. You can use whatever hydration value and oil you'd like. You can also use or not use the small amount of wheat germ you have been using.
FYI, light brown sugar contains around 3.5% molasses. Dark brown sugar contains around 6.5%. The rest will be the part that adds sweetness.
Peter
Color seems awfully close to the real thing!
You haven't been able to compare Grandma's Original with Brer Rabbit Mild, have you? Grandma's must be lighter if 7% is going to be used because from my comparisons, 5% BR Mild is just about dead on from a color standpoint. No worries either way. I don't know if I'll go get some Grandma's or not. I may try 5% BR Mild and then the brown sugar from there.
Also Peter - any thoughts on the "failed" 4-day cold fermentation, in terms of affecting the sweetness? I know it wasn't exactly germane to the exercise at hand, but would be educational to me if you have any insight.
...If anyone wants to see the formula I used today for my MM’s attempt they can let me know. I can scan it in my printer and then post it as a picture.
Norma
Yes Norma, I would appreciate it if you posted the formula for you latest bake here. Looks good.
Thanks.
Since I am scheduled to be out of town for a long weekend, I decided to use my latest frozen dough ball today to make a pizza. The dough I used is the one with the KABF and vital wheat gluten, 54% hydration, 0.60% IDY, 3% vegetable oil, 1.75% salt, 7% Grandma's Original molasses, and 4% light brown sugar. But no wheat germ. To speed up the process, rather than defrosting the dough ball in my refrigerator compartment for about 24 hours before using, this time I defrosted the dough ball for about 5 1/2 hours at room temperature. With today's temperature hitting a high of 86 degrees F (there were predictions that another record might be set), that turned out to be too fast a defrost. So, I put the dough back into the refrigerator for a few hours before using to make the pizza. At the point where the dough was put back into the refrigerator, it was softer than usual but still fairly stiff. When used to make the pizza, the dough ball opened up easily and handled beautifully and could be tossed and spun with impunity.
For today's bake, I decided to use two pizza stones. One was placed on the lowest oven rack position and the second one was placed on the second from the top oven rack position. The spacing between the two stones was around 7". Both stones were preheated at around 500 degrees F for one hour. The pizza was baked entirely on the bottom stone. The use of the two stones did extend the bake time to around 10 minutes. I believe that using the two stone method with a lower oven temperature should allow me to exceed a bake time of 10 minutes. That is the way that I will bake my next MM clone pizza.
The main purpose of the test was to see if I could get the degree of final crust sweetness we have all been striving for. As it turned out, the finished crust was sweet but still too sweet. My thought for the next experiment was to either use the same amount of Grandma's Original molasses or increase it by a percent or two and to reduce the amount of light brown sugar to around 2%. I then recalled that Norma's most recent MM clone dough uses 7% Grandma's Original molasses and 2% light brown sugar. I wouldn't be surprised to find that that is close to what we are looking for in terms of sweetness. So, I will be interested to see the results of Norma's latest MM clone pizza.
Peter
Norma,
I'm glad to see that your latest pizza appeared to be a good copy of the MM pizza you had in DC. With all my experiments since I had the MM pizza in Florida, my memory of that pizza has pretty much faded.
On the matter of the dough changing color, were you comparing the defrosted dough ball with the frozen dough ball?
Peter
I did a search in this site for autolyse. I didn't find any thing on this thread. you folks who are making these wonderful crusts; have any of you tried this method?
dwighttsharpe,
Thanks for saying the MM's attempted pie looked good! :) This is the formula I used. I just mixed the dough and then froze it, then let it defrost for one day, then left the dough ball sit at room temperature for 2 hrs, before I started to open the dough ball.
Norma
Glad to hear your attempted MM’s pie went well today too! :)
Norma,
I felt that we had narrowed the ranges of values of molasses and brown sugar to get "sweet but not too sweet" and that it was just a matter of time before we converged on a solution to the sweetness problem while getting the color of the dough right also. Since I like the flavor of molasses better than the flavor of raw can sugar or brown sugar, the next time I may use more molasses and less brown sugar. Since I have been using King Arthur bread flour and the Hodgson Mill vital wheat gluten, I may also lower the oil back to 2% and maybe add a small amount of wheat germ (maybe 1-2%) in order to get a somewhat more dense rim. You may not need to do this with the KASL.
I also thought that defrosting the frozen MM clone dough ball at room temperature was a good idea. When time came to make the pizza and I opened up the dough ball, I found that after getting the skin to around 8" inches (my clones have been 10"), it was possible to slap the skin from hand to hand as was shown in some of the videos. I also had no problem tossing and spinning the skin. I think if one defrosts the dough in the refrigerator for a day, using a longer temper time may yield the same dough condition that makes it easier to handle the skin.
I also think that it is possible to lower the hydration even further. I used 54% for my last dough but I think that 53% should work also, especially in my case where I am using the KABF and VWG.
Peter
Well, I finally got to taste my first real slice of Mellow Mushroom pizza. It seemed to be all dry and shriveled from being in the fridge too long! :-D
Just kidding. It was actually very well preserved. Thank you, Norma for saving it for. I appreciate your kindness and generosity.
I thought it very good and maybe just a tiny bit less sweet than most of Normas' attempts. To be totally honest, taste-wise, in a literal "blind" test, I doubt I could tell which was which. Even the sauce, I think, is similar. Visually, Normas' has a larger puffier rim. I think the color is almost perfect as well.
Great job, Norma. I think you just about nailed it! ;D
On the matter of the dough ball changing color, the dough ball looked the same color as the dough ball I had made and frozen, until the dough ball heated at room temperature. I checked the dough ball a couple of times today before I made the pizza. The color of the dough ball then changed to a darker color before I went to make the pizza. How can the dough change in the number of hours I was at market. Do you have an explanation for that? Steve saw the dough change colors too. Do you also think this hydration was about the right hydration? I can now only wish I had those other pictures to post to show about the color changing.
My dough ball handled like a MM’s dough, like I saw at MM’s recently, in almost every way, just like yours. The only thing I have a question about is now how do I get the less airy looking rim? I like the really airy looking rim, but that isn’t what MM’s rim is really like.
Hi Norma,
I noticed you dip your dough in cornmeal while it is fermenting. That's a new technique that I think sounds pretty neat. Is there a certain type of cornmeal I should use or can I stick with my quaker?
http://www.quakeroats.com/products/more-products-from-quaker/content/specialty-items/cornmeal/yellow-corn-meal.aspx
I also am curious if one is not going to freeze the dough - what is the fridge fermentation you would recommend? 1 day - 2 day - x days?
I really don’t know how long to let dough ball (the formula I used) ferment in the fridge. Since the formula I used has .060 IDY in the formula, I would think the IDY amount would have to be played with a little, and possibly lowered. Maybe Peter can give you better information on the amount of IDY to use if you want to cold ferment your dough for a day or more.
Can you refresh my memory of the approach when .6 IDY is used? Does one need to take the freeze immediately method?
I still don’t understand how you can make such an educated guess even from the first clone attempt.
Norma,
Your report comparing the Domino Homemaid molasses with the Grandma's Original molasses is actually quite timely inasmuch as I received a call back from the gal at Mellow Mushroom just a short while ago and I have more information to report.
By way of recapitulation, as I previously noted, I had been told during my last conversation with the MM rep that MM uses liquid molasses. I reiterated that statement today and, given a chance, it was not retracted. The main reason for the return call, however, had to do with the wheat germ. I was told today that while MM may have used wheat germ a long time ago, it does not now add wheat germ to their flour. So, as was earlier reported on a couple of occasions, it appears that the MM dough is made only from high-gluten flour, water (spring water), salt, yeast, oil and molasses.
When the conversation turned back to the molasses, I mentioned that it was my understanding that MM does not use refined white sugar. Her response was "Never." When I mentioned that something like brown sugar was not a "refined white sugar" but it might be considered a "refined sugar", she said that while she could discuss allergy and related health issues she was not in a position to discuss certain matters relating to their dough. But the impression I got was that it was only molasses that was used in the MM dough and in an amount just enough to give the dough and crust its color. She added that many people think that they are using whole wheat flour because of the crust color.
In defense of MM, I have not seen anything covering a period of several years, and attributable to MM corporate, that their dough contains wheat germ or Vitamin E. Its franchisees and writers have been the ones quoting their use. But perhaps MM corporate should have been more diligent in policing what their franchisees say about their dough.
Your Homemaid molasses might just be the ticket for a "molasses-only" sweetener. It might be worth an experiment using just that molasses without any added sugars.
I don't know what to say about the evaporated cane juice syrup and the rest of your growing collection of molasses products, both wet and dry. I'd hate to see you use all of those products and have your teeth rot and fall out and cause you to leave the forum and join another forum such as the BabyFood.com forum or the Marshmallow.com forum.
So, basically, what it appears we have with the MM dough is a not particularly healthful dough but one that is as idiot-proof as you can get in terms of using to open up the dough balls without the skins sticking to anything including themselves when they are preformed. With the dough balls being frozen for the most part and easily defrosted is also a plus to the MM strategy.
Hopefully, it won't be long before we solve the texture issue. Then, you and Steve can go to your local tattoo parlor and get some hippy-type tattoos and start your own funky, low-overhead place featuring discount clones of the MM pizzas.
Peter
Norma,
For an amount of the Homemaid molasses to use, I think I would go with about 8% by flour weight and see how that goes compared with the Grandma's Original molasses. I made and froze another MM clone dough ball today with 9% Grandma's Original molasses and 1.5% light brown sugar in an effort to get more of the flavor of the molasses.
Peter
Norma,
I did a little research on the Grandma's Original molasses and it looks like it has 55.50 grams of total sugar for a 100 gram sample compared with 65 grams for the Homemaid molasses. So, it looks like the Homemaid molasses may, in fact, be sweeter.
Peter
Norma,
That appears to be a product offered in Canada. There is even a separate website at http://www.grandmamolasses.com/index.php?id=3. Note that in Canada the product is sold under the Grandma brand name without the apostrophe "s". In the U.S., it is with the apostrophe "s".
I have not seen spec sheets for the U.S. Grandma's molasses products to be able to do a comparison, but it may well be that the Grandma Canadian molasses product is a Fancy product.
Peter
Just made Norma's latest (brown sugar/molasses) and backed off on yeast to .325 vs. .6 since I was doing a next day cold ferment rather than freeze/thaw model. Turned out nice but yeast didnt have near the imapct and resulted in little crust cornicorn. Next time I plan to move up to .5ish. Kids liked it said it tasted like mellow mushroom ...and my wife totally agreed. I baked it 7 min at 525. Next time maybe 9 min
Hi Norma
I used gma's robust vs orig since that is what I had. That has a tad bit less sugar. I have one more dough in fridge that I will let warm up on counter next time for as long as it takes to see a bit of lift. I'll be more patient. A two hour warmup wasnt enough The crumb was real close and kept some internal moistness and after we let it sit and cool for 20 min and rewarmed on my lodge pizza pan on stovetop it was even closer and brought out more sweetness. I'll take pics next time.
I don’t know if the Steen’s Pure and Natural Light Molasses is a sweeter molasses, but it is expensive.
http://www.steensyrup.com/molasses.html
The Barbados Unslphured Molasses might be a sweeter molasses. http://www.alliedoldenglish.com/plantation.php
I did contact both of them to ask if they could tell me how sweet their molasses is.
Do you have any reason to suspect that the MM rep would be less than 100% truthful/accurate in the info she was giving you?
I would assume that she is being above board, but when I attempted to contact their corporate office weeks ago, I got nowhere in terms of nutritional info. I sent an email and the reply was simply that they are working on having data/info available and they could not tell me anything at this time.
Just throwing it out there to get your opinion. It sounds like she was believable, but at the same time, what we're doing here isn't exactly Classified. ...just sayin! :-D
P.S. Not sure what I'm gonna do next, especially if we go with the assumption that MM uses ONLY molasses. I would have to try another brand, I guess, because from my direct color comparisons of cooked doughs, 5% Brer Rabbit and KASL produce a crust with basically identical color to MM. Possible I could squeeze more Brer Rabbit in there before the naked eye could detect a difference, but I doubt that increase would manifest in sweetness.
Norma,
I have seen the Steen's cane syrup product on supermarket shelves over the years but not the molasses products. The Barbados molasses product seems to be somewhat of a generic designation for a first boil molasses product, as earlier mentioned. But, both of those products appear to be retail level products and might be options for our members as alternatives to the Grandma's and Brer Rabbit products. But they are likelier to be harder to find than the Grandma and Brer Rabbit products and may entail some shipping costs if ordered online. It will also mean having to do some experimenting with quantities to get the desired degree of dough/crust coloration if that is important to the user. I'll be most interested in what you get back from Steen's on their light colored molasses and whether it is like a Fancy molasses.
It was also interesting to see that John at Malt Products and the gal at Domino Specialty Ingredients selected the same liquid molasses products to try as I did in Reply 354 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg156811.html#msg156811. It's good to know that we are on the same wavelength.
Peter
. HUGE THANKS to Biz, Pete and Norma for their extreme dedication. This is a really special community. Chills
For what it's worth, I thought I'd post the formula for the dough I made today.
I'm a bit limited in my options here. The only molasses I have access to is Brer Rabbit mild and Grandma's Original and Robust. And all I have on hand is Brer Rabbit Mild.
I am also a little bit lost on where exactly we are in this process. I've seen references to texture/crumb issues lately, but I for one have been very satisfied with the texture of the doughs I've been able to produce. The only thing that has been lacking is the sweetness.
I know Norma is experimenting with a dizzying array of molasses products and sweeteners, but since I can't reasonably obtain these, I have to go in another direction.
It also sounds like we're saying MM does not use anything other than liquid molasses. But are we really saying that? Also no wheat germ.
So with only Brer Rabbit molasses on hand, I had to come up with something. Since I believe Peter and possibly Norma have tried molasses plus some kind of brown sugar, I thought I'd go that route.
All I have on hand is a store brand organic brown sugar. It's fairly dark. .not a "light" brown sugar for sure.
Oh - I also have run out of KASL. So I will have to revert to the Pete-zza KABF+VWG method as I used to do in my PJ Clone doughs from days gone by.
So anyway - here's my formula. This is intended to be a 24-hour cold ferment dough. I would love any and all feedback and guidance on where to go from here.
Flour/VWG Blend* 100%
Spring Water 54%
IDY .60%
Sea Salt 1.75%
Soybean Oil 3%
Molasses 5%
Dark Brown Sugar 2%
TOTAL 166.35%
*Flour blend comprised of 97.9% KABF and 2.1% VWG
Norma,
The last MM pies that you baked and posted the formula for in post# 505:
What oven temperature and baking time did you use?
Thanks.
I used my 2nd dough ball today and let it sit out around 3-4 hrs this time. I used Norma's latest recipe (molasses/brown sugar) but decreased the yeast from .6 to .3 under the advisement of Pete since I skipped the freezing step. I used grandma's robust molasses because that is what I had in stock. One word: amazing. i turned out about 95% identical to what we've had numerous times at MM. I baked it in a 550 oven for 8 minutes and then rotated it 180 degrees and gave it an extra minute because the bottom was looking quite brown. A keeper for me. HUGE THANKS to Biz, Pete and Norma for their extreme dedication. This is a really special community. Chills
I wondered after I looked at more molasses products and syrups at the supermarket if something like Treacle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treacle and http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/treacle might be used in MM’s dough.
I just received an answer to my questions to Steen’s. This what the email said.
The sugar content is 16g per tablespoon. I spoke to Narris Duhon who is our controller. He says our molasses is the same as Grandma’s Molasses. He also said that our Steen’s Pure Cane Syrup would be the same as “fancy molasses”. I have not hear of anyone using molasses for pizza dough. I hope this answers your questions. Let me know if we can be of further help.
Thanks,
Glenda
Norma,
One of the things that I have learned from all of my reverse engineering and cloning projects is that the companies try to keep things simple. That means that they are not going to use a retail level product unless the company has a wholesale or foodservice division or it is located in their backyard. They are also going to look for the cheapest products that meet their needs, whether it is molasses or anything else. Since MM has completely abandoned the use of wheat germ and Vitamin E enrichment and the notion of offering a healthful product (admittedly molasses does have some nutritional value but it is still a sugar that can rot peoples' teeth and pose problems for those who must avoid sugar products), I can't see MM doing anything fancy when it comes to selecting a molasses product to use. Also, in the case of golden syrups, and while I can't speak for what the regulators allow in the UK, I think that the FDA would frown on MM using golden syrups and calling them molasses. MM has pounded the word "molasses" into peoples' consciousness for so long that they had better be using molasses.
Peter
Norma,
I'd be curious to know why Steen's does not call its Pure Cane Syrup molasses if it is molasses. Maybe what Narris Duhon means is that the Steen's Pure Cane Syrup can be used as a substitute for molasses. Clearly, Steen's is not a supplier to MM since they are not aware of anyone using molasses for pizza dough.
Peter
dwighttsharpe,
I baked that MM's attempt in my deck oven at market. The temperature was between 500-525 degrees F and the bake time was about 7 minutes. Deck ovens do bake differently than home ovens though. If you want me to give you the links to where Peter posted about how he has tried to bake his MM's attempts in a home oven so far, I can give you those links. You could also asked Biz and Brian how they baked their MM's attempts.
Norma
Thank you. Just from an appearance perspective, I like the looks of your pies(texture and color of the dough, not so dark on the bottom).
I have my first attempted doughball in the fridge now. I used your last formula but will try a cold ferment ala Briterian, so I used .5% instant yeast. Not quite sure how long it will cold ferment, but this evening will be 24 hours, so I will probably let it temper and try baking something later on tonight.
About your inquiry to Steens; reading about all these various grades of molasses and sugar boiling, I often wondered where their "pure cane syrup" fit into the picture. Curious that the Steen's rep consideres it to be fancy grade molasses. Guess he knows what he's talking about. I wish I had known this yesterday when I made the dough, as I love Steen's, and had some in the cabinet.
As it was, I used some "older" Roddenberry's brand molasses(no grade specified). I also have a somewhat newer, unopened bottle of store brand molasses. I opened it and tasted it to compare it to the Roddenberry's. They tasted about the same to me. Neither one I would hardly call (very)sweet, so I used 5.5% molasses and 3.5% demerera sugar to sweeten the dough.
Thanks again.
Norma,
Thanks for the update on the Steen's pure cane syrup. While you were awaiting a response from Glenda, I did a search to see if there is a "standard of identity" for molasses at the FDA. I did not find any but it does appear that Canada has a standard of identity for molasses. See, for example, the document at http://www.grandmamolasses.com/data/pdf/PDS_Fancy_Grandma_Feb_2007.pdf. All of this notwithstanding, it would not be wise for MM to use a pure cane syrup and pass it off as molasses. I'm certain that they are not doing that.
Of course, members who have the Steen's pure cane syrup should feel free to try out that product in an MM clone dough. Hopefully, in any such case, it would be nice to get some feedback on the use of the Steen's pure cane syrup and how it compares with using a molasses product.
Peter
Norma, now seems like a good time to bring up something that you had pointed out a few posts back. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157323.html#msg157323 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157323.html#msg157323)
There is another kind of Excelsior Mill. Picture #1. It would have been used to begin the processing of (sugar) cane, ribbon cane and sorghum cane (grain sorghum). Many different varieties of cane were milled to produce the liquid that becomes cane syrup, sorghum syrup and sorghum molasses. Molasses is supposed to come only from the residue left after the crystalization of sugar solids in a sugar making operation. Sorghum molasses is not "real" molasses, but it probably picked up the term because of its similarity in color and consistency.
Back in the plantation days the fall would be when the cane syrup was made. I'll bet that there are still some "old timers" in South Georgia that grew up with sorghum molasses, and you would have a hard time convincing them that sorghum "molasses" was not real molasses. Then there would be those in Kentucky and Tennessee that possibly make their cane syrup a littler darker, cooked a bit longer, a little sweeter. I have a customer in South Georgia that always wants me to come by and eat breakfast with him. A cat's head biscuit and cane syrup are always necessary for breakfast he tells me...
There is a cane mill at 2:50 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7Uxz_DU3U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7Uxz_DU3U)
Norma, now seems like a good time to bring up something that you had pointed out a few posts back. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157323.html#msg157323 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg157323.html#msg157323)
There is another kind of Excelsior Mill. Picture #1. It would have been used to begin the processing of (sugar) cane, ribbon cane and sorghum cane (grain sorghum). Many different varieties of cane were milled to produce the liquid that becomes cane syrup, sorghum syrup and sorghum molasses. Molasses is supposed to come only from the residue left after the crystalization of sugar solids in a sugar making operation. Sorghum molasses is not "real" molasses, but it probably picked up the term because of its similarity in color and consistency.
Back in the plantation days the fall would be when the cane syrup was made. I'll bet that there are still some "old timers" in South Georgia that grew up with sorghum molasses, and you would have a hard time convincing them that sorghum "molasses" was not real molasses. Then there would be those in Kentucky and Tennessee that possibly make their cane syrup a littler darker, cooked a bit longer, a little sweeter. I have a customer in South Georgia that always wants me to come by and eat breakfast with him. A cat's head biscuit and cane syrup are always necessary for breakfast he tells me...
There is a cane mill at 2:50 here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7Uxz_DU3U (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-H7Uxz_DU3U)
Kind of get the feeling that if you told these folks they were not making "real molasses", they would run you off. :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=n6kQeoEr3CA#!
For all intents and purposes though, everything seems to be identical, except the particular species of "grass" one happens to be growing/harvesting. Of course, also realizing the final "molasses" products are not identical, and not necessarily interchangeable.
Here is another video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpbUdAcpA20&NR=1. I was watching to see if any of the workers were wearing Mellow Mushroom shirts :-D.
Peter