Switching SD Liquid Starter Dough to SD Biga Dough

[xlacayo]

Hey Guys,

I have a quick question:

I want to try to make dough with BIGA using my SD starter. My current recipe is this:

100% Flour
65% Water
2.5% Salt
15% Mature Starter

Before I make my dough I feed my starter, it will peak in about 12 hours. Afterwards I mix, make the dough, rest 45 min, knead it, let it rest for 3 hours at RT (80C). I then ball it, rest at RT for 4-5 hours and then it goes in the fridge for 24-48 hours.

I want to give BIGA a try so I wanted to ask you guys how I should change fermentation times, starter percentages etc. All the biga recipes I've been researching usually use 50 or 100% preferment (biga) in their recipes and they usually ferment biga for 24-48 hours before using, so quite different than the method I'm working with, with a normal liquid SD starter. The preferment I'm inclined to use is as follows:

100% flour
40% water
50% starter

Any suggestions or comments are welcome and if I've left out any relevant information please point it out so I can fill in the blanks.

[gdepozsgay]

Hmmm. My SD starter peaks in about 3-4 hrs. Don't know; just asking.

[amolapizza]

Theoretically a biga is made with cake yeast and not sourdough..

So I think most everything you can read about biga will be oriented towards yeast and not sourdough.  Maybe you're better served investigating a firm sourdough starter.  These are normally kept at around 45-50% hydration and supposedly produce a less acidic starter with more wild yeast and less lactic/acetic acid producing bacteria.

A small warning though, they need quite a bit of work to keep in top form, and Italian bakers might refresh them as often as 2 or 3 times a day (at least during periods when they are using it).  Often used for panettone, but also for Italian breads.

[gdepozsgay]

I converted some of my SD to LM recently and the LM works just as well as the SD for bread or pizza.

[Heikjo]

I converted some of my SD to LM recently and the LM works just as well as the SD for bread or pizza.

What is your experience so far with SD vs LM? How does it affect the final product?

[gdepozsgay]

What is your experience so far with SD vs LM? How does it affect the final product?

The sour taste does go away with the LM though I find it harder to maintain or lets say its more demanding. I've only used it in bread and pizza dough thus far. I have used the discards of both the LM and the SD in crumpets and it works just fine. To 350 g of flour for the crumpets, I do add 2 tsp. of IDY since the discards are usually a week old. I'll keep both for a while but might toss the LM unless I decide to make pastry.

[Heikjo]

Thanks. How do you maintain it and how often? Do you use the water method?

[gdepozsgay]

Thanks. How do you maintain it and how often? Do you use the water method?

No I have not used the water method (I don't fully understand it at this point). I do 50 g. LM; 50 G. water; 100 g. flour: and 3 g. honey. Knead and fold and roll out several times. Place in wide mouth container, cover lightly and let it rise RT. When risen I put in fridge until I need it then take out and repeat the above mentioned, wait for it to rise and use the portion I need. I then either feed again before refrigerating or just put the remainder in the refrigerator and feed before I use again. I don't let it go more than a week before re feeding. I routinely keep the discard from the LM and and the SD as mentioned before. I'm open to instruction about what I'm doing wrong or should consider doing. Would like to know more about the water bath method too.

[xlacayo]

Theoretically a biga is made with cake yeast and not sourdough..

So I think most everything you can read about biga will be oriented towards yeast and not sourdough.  Maybe you're better served investigating a firm sourdough starter.  These are normally kept at around 45-50% hydration and supposedly produce a less acidic starter with more wild yeast and less lactic/acetic acid producing bacteria.

A small warning though, they need quite a bit of work to keep in top form, and Italian bakers might refresh them as often as 2 or 3 times a day (at least during periods when they are using it).  Often used for panettone, but also for Italian breads.

Got you. Yea, I usually feed my starter 3 times a day. The last feed I add the amount of flour and water I need and leave it to peak overnight. Then I use it early in the morning (That's what I meant when I said it'll peak in about 12 hours. It actually peaks in 7-8 hours, hence the amount of feedings per day.)

I found this article which seems to be along the lines of what I'm going for: https://www.pantrymama.com/pasta-madre/

I will run some tests, bake some pies and post results soon!

[xlacayo]

I converted some of my SD to LM recently and the LM works just as well as the SD for bread or pizza.

Do you use the same amount of LM as SD in your recipe?

 I'm currently doing 15% starter but following TXCraig's Sourdough Predictive Model, given that I have a walk in cooler set at 62F, I will bring that amount down to 5.3% starter. I am wondering if the LM will work just the same as the SD.

If you guys haven't come by this post, I highly suggest it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=22649.0

[xlacayo]

This is basically the cornicione I get with my current SD starter:

[gdepozsgay]

I have been using the same amount of LM as SD. In bread, I tend to get a tighter crumb than with SD and I like that for toasting and dipping. I do not find any noticeable difference between the two in pizza dough. I've only been at this a short time but if I was doing many pies at a time, for now I would stick with the SD that I know better.

[xlacayo]

I'll play around with it and post results. I will make a SD dough and a LM dough and see how they compare. I'm really excited to try LM; supposedly you get a nicer crumb with it, so we'll see.

[amolapizza]

You're essentially making a LM when you make a biga with SD starter, it's just that it hasn't had the time to adjust to the new conditions.

Regarding baths, it's said that when you place the LM in sugar water the acid producing bacteria move to the water, so it's a way to increase the yeast to bacteria ratio, and to reduce the acidity of you LM.  Not so sure about the moving of the bacteria, but it seems to make the LM sweeter tasting.  It's often used every day (when in production), or as a way to correct an overly acidic LM.

[xlacayo]

You're essentially making a LM when you make a biga with SD starter, it's just that it hasn't had the time to adjust to the new conditions.

Regarding baths, it's said that when you place the LM in sugar water the acid producing bacteria move to the water, so it's a way to increase the yeast to bacteria ratio, and to reduce the acidity of you LM.  Not so sure about the moving of the bacteria, but it seems to make the LM sweeter tasting.  It's often used every day (when in production), or as a way to correct an overly acidic LM.

Yea, I'm beginning to think it is essentially the same thing except BIGA uses dry or fresh yeast and lievito madre uses SD starter; that is basically all the difference I see of the two methods.

[gdepozsgay]

You're essentially making a LM when you make a biga with SD starter, it's just that it hasn't had the time to adjust to the new conditions.

Regarding baths, it's said that when you place the LM in sugar water the acid producing bacteria move to the water, so it's a way to increase the yeast to bacteria ratio, and to reduce the acidity of you LM.  Not so sure about the moving of the bacteria, but it seems to make the LM sweeter tasting.  It's often used every day (when in production), or as a way to correct an overly acidic LM.

The question is when you place the LM in the water; what is the % of sugar; and for how long. An other question is what you do wit h it when you have done the water bath. Can you store it or do you have to use it now.

[gdepozsgay]

Yea, I'm beginning to think it is essentially the same thing except BIGA uses dry or fresh yeast and lievito madre uses SD starter; that is basically all the difference I see of the two methods.

Yeah. The biga is easier but I don't think that is the difference. For one, it takes several days to convert a SD to LM (in my experience anyway). Biga is done over night and I think it is still SD or commercial yeast preferment.