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Author Topic: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?  (Read 281 times)

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Offline DoouBall

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Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« on: April 04, 2022, 12:27:48 PM »
Has anyone here experimented with achieving maximum acidity from a commercial yeast preferment such as poolish or biga?

Like many here, I've been making lots of sourdough bread and pizza, but sometimes I yearn for the ability to get just a hint of tang without the extra work of going down the sourdough route. I've read up and experimented and I found a few things suggested to increase the acidity of commercial preferments such as

-24 hour fermentation with small quantity of yeast
-Add 10% of tipo 1 flour to the biga
-Put the fully ripe preferment in the fridge for 24 hours before using

I measured the pH of these preferments and so far, none of them are going below 5.2, so while they may be a tad more acidic than other poolish/biga, but they're nowhere near the 4.2-4.5 of a real sourdough. In the finished product, I can never taste any tang from dough made with commercial preferments - if anything, it tastes sweeter than direct dough.

However, I've eaten at two pizzerias that I know do not use sourdough, yet their dough had a hint of tang - Tony's Pizza Napoletana and Pizzaiolo (in Oakland). So I'm scratching my head wondering how they achieve a hint of tang without sourdough. Any ideas?
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline HansB

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #1 on: April 04, 2022, 06:25:12 PM »
Do a search here for Criscito, that may help.
Instagram @hans_michigan. The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings. -Brian Spangler

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2022, 07:39:51 PM »
Other spellings that have been used include Crisceto and Crescito.

Peter

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #3 on: April 05, 2022, 01:41:43 PM »
Do a search here for Criscito, that may help.

Do you mean the commercial products like Caputo Criscito? I haven't tried that exact one but I did try dried sourdough products from Molino Rossetto and Le 5 Stagioni Naturkraft and I found that they don't really work - 0 tang flavor added in my experiments, even at high doses.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #4 on: April 05, 2022, 09:02:51 PM »
You can have low pH without any tang if your acid balance tilts towards lactic vs acetic.

Colder fermentation, dryer (think biga and low total hydration) dough, and more salt favor production of acetic vs. lactic acid. That being said, there just isn't much naturally occurring LAB in flour in comparison to dough inoculated with SD. I didn't notice any hint of tang in Tony's NP.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline DoouBall

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #5 on: April 05, 2022, 09:35:27 PM »
You can have low pH without any tang if your acid balance tilts towards lactic vs acetic.

Colder fermentation, dryer (think biga and low total hydration) dough, and more salt favor production of acetic vs. lactic acid. That being said, there just isn't much naturally occurring LAB in flour in comparison to dough inoculated with SD. I didn't notice any hint of tang in Tony's NP.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #6 on: April 05, 2022, 09:45:22 PM »
In NP, the bitterness of the char can also be confused with sourdough tang.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline HansB

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #7 on: April 05, 2022, 09:56:58 PM »
Do you mean the commercial products like Caputo Criscito? I haven't tried that exact one but I did try dried sourdough products from Molino Rossetto and Le 5 Stagioni Naturkraft and I found that they don't really work - 0 tang flavor added in my experiments, even at high doses.

Yes, the Caputo. I have not tried it. Maybe someone that has will chime in.

Have you tried just adding some SD discard into your dough?
Instagram @hans_michigan. The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings. -Brian Spangler

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #8 on: April 05, 2022, 10:10:25 PM »
I tried the Caputo Criscito. It's been quite a while, but I don't remember it doing anything meaningful for the flavor.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2022, 01:18:29 PM »
Thanks for your answers Hans and Craig! From what I read elsewhere, the Caputo Criscito adds a "fresh baked bread" flavor to the dough, so I think if anything, the flavor it adds is more of a biga/poolish replacement rather than a sourdough one.

Hans, yes sometimes I add some sourdough to my regular dough, but I find it hard to figure out how much to add. I did find that I have some hint of sourdough flavor if I use 0.7-0.1% IDY and no more. However, more often than not, the IDY in the formula completely wipes out any tang in the sourdough starter, at least it does with my previous milder Ischia culture which I, unfortunately, managed to kill recently.

On the upside, I recently created a fresh rye sourdough starter and it's bubbling up nicely and smells great. I'm thinking maybe if I do a hybrid dough with that, a bit of the acidity will come through.

Hans, do you recommend using a rye sourdough starter for pizza? It smells so good right now, I'm tempted to keep it as rye instead of converting to white, but I know it's not traditional for pizza. I learned recently that because rye has very little gluten, it is extremely easy to stir and it seems not to be quite as messy to discard either. The only downside I can see is that rye flour is more expensive for maintenance.

Does it make a more sour pizza dough? Thanks!

To be honest, I like sour flavor, but my wife and son can't handle any more than a hint of tang, so that's my goal. I was thinking how nice it would be if I could just achieve that with poolish/biga, but nothing yet. The person working at Pizzaiolo told me that they use old dough (not sourdough) for their pizza, but I didn't really care for using old dough as I found it usually makes the pizza much more chewy. Of course, I may not be using it correctly. 
« Last Edit: April 06, 2022, 01:25:15 PM by DoouBall »
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

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Offline HansB

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2022, 01:44:14 PM »
I think a bit of rye SD starter will give really good flavor. I don't maintain a rye starter anymore, I just use my wheat starter and feed a portion of it some rye when I want a rye starter. Even one feeding works well.
Instagram @hans_michigan. The most important element of pizza is the dough. Pizza is bread after all. Bread with toppings. -Brian Spangler

Offline DoouBall

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Re: Acidity from commercial yeast preferment?
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2022, 02:19:34 PM »
I think a bit of rye SD starter will give really good flavor. I don't maintain a rye starter anymore, I just use my wheat starter and feed a portion of it some rye when I want a rye starter. Even one feeding works well.

Awesome, I'll give it a shot. Thanks!
Alex

Outdoor Oven: Blackstone. Indoor Oven: Gaggenau.

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