Baker's yeast quantity prediction model - please compare to your results

[TXCraig1]

Yes that is the latest version. Surprisingly perhaps, the inner workings of this table is a bit more complex than the SD table. I'm not sure it can be distilled down into a single formula the way we did for starters.

[sallam]

No problem. I can handle multiple formulas and conditions.
If you upload the spreadsheet file. I can work out the formulas.

[Obsauced]

Yes that is the latest version. Surprisingly perhaps, the inner workings of this table is a bit more complex than the SD table. I'm not sure it can be distilled down into a single formula the way we did for starters.

So how would you use this with say a starter/baker's yeast mix like the one tony g. gives in the pizza bible?

would you simply subtract starter time over commercial yeast time? or is there some crazy math involved

Flour: 100
Water: 62
Ischia: 20
CY: .5
Salt: 2

\

[TXCraig1]

It's not something I've considered - probably because I'm fundamentally and philosophically opposed to combining SD and baker's yeast. My suggestion is to take your best guess, tweak based on the result, and test again. Repeat as necessary.

[c4lin]

Hi all. Anyone having this issue when fermenting on glass? Balls go almost completely flat and when I take them out, they are very soft, almost too soft/low elasticity to shape...  Thanks!

Carlos

[TXCraig1]

Hi all. Anyone having this issue when fermenting on glass? Balls go almost completely flat and when I take them out, they are very soft, almost too soft/low elasticity to shape...  Thanks!

Carlos

Try more time in bulk and less time in balls.

[c4lin]

Try more time in bulk and less time in balls.

got it. Any recommendation when shaping these? Maybe slap them a bit to wake the up?

[TXCraig1]

got it. Any recommendation when shaping these? Maybe slap them a bit to wake the up?

I don't know that I'd do anything differently except be more gentle.

[TXCraig1]

When I was working on this yeast table, Peter helped me do some research finding data points. I thought it might be helpful to post them here - particularly for people looking for cold-fermentation starting points. These are fermentation data summaries Peter collected from posts in this forum as of the end of 2012.


1. IDY, 0.14%, fermented in the refrigerator for 120 hours (June/TX), tempered for 1 hour at a room temperature (RT) of about 80 degrees F

2. IDY, 0.28%, fermented in the refrigerator for 52 hours (July/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 78 degrees F

3. IDY, 0.10%, fermented for 5 ½ hours at RT = 79 degrees F, then punched down and fermented for another 2 ½ hours at RT = 79 degrees F.

4. IDY, 0.025%, fermented for 12 hours at RT = 81 degrees F

5. IDY, 0.40%, fermented in the refrigerator for 24 hours (July/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 80 degrees F

6. IDY, 0.0125%, fermented for 17 hours at RT = 82 degrees F, punched down and then fermented for another 6 hours at RT = 82 degrees F

7. IDY, 0.944%, fermented in the refrigerator for 24 hours (November/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 68 degrees F (Note: this is one of those typical Reinhart doughs that contains a lot of yeast but where the dough can be used the same day or after cold fermentation)

8. IDY, 0.80%, fermented for 2 hours at RT = 65 degrees F

9. IDY, 0.012%, fermented for 18 hours at RT = 80 degrees F, then punched down and re-kneaded and fermented for 4 ½ more hours at RT = 80 degrees F

10. IDY, 0.00449%, fermented for 24 hours at RT = 82 degrees F, then cold fermented in the refrigerator for 24 hours (August/TX), tempered for 1 hour at RT = 82 degrees F

11. IDY, 0.22%, fermented for 67 hours in the refrigerator (April/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 76 degrees F

12. IDY, 0.20%, fermented for 72 hours in the refrigerator (May/TX), tempered for 2 ½ hours at RT = 78.8 degrees F

13. IDY, 0.20%, fermented for 72 hours in the refrigerator ((May/TX), tempered for 1 ¾ hours at RT = 75 degrees F

14. IDY, 0.20%, fermented for 91 hours in the refrigerator (May/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 82 degrees F

15. IDY, 0.30%, fermented for 48 hours in the cooler (April/PA), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 75 degrees F

16. IDY, 0.30%, fermented for 1 ½ hours at RT = 75 degrees F and then fermented for 48 hours in the cooler (March/PA), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 75 degrees F

17. IDY, 0.375%, fermented for 54 hours in the refrigerator (May/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at RT = 68 degrees F

18. IDY, 0.40%, fermented for 68 hours in the refrigerator (May/TX), tempered for 1 ½ hours at 78 degrees F

19. IDY, 0.35%, fermented for 77 hours in the cooler at 40 degrees F, tempered for 3 hours at RT = 75 degrees F

20. IDY, 0.21%, fermented for 100 hours in the cooler at 40 degrees F, tempered for 2 hours at RT = 75 degrees F

21. IDY, 0.60%, fermented for 15 minutes at RT = 75 degrees F, then fermented in the cooler for 29 hours at 40 degrees F, tempered for 1 hour at RT = 75 degrees F

22. IDY, 0.80%, fermented for 3 hours at RT = 75 degrees F

23. IDY, 0.80%, fermented for 3 ¼ hours at RT = 74 degrees F

[invertedisdead]

Very useful Craig. I just put a dough in with 0.14% IDY. If I saw this thread first I may have bumped it up a bit for more of a 4 day timing.

[juniorballoon]

Hi all. Anyone having this issue when fermenting on glass? Balls go almost completely flat and when I take them out, they are very soft, almost too soft/low elasticity to shape...  Thanks!

Carlos

You might also try less hydration. Those look like pancakes. For the sticking, do you lightly oil your proofing containers? It makes the dough come out easier.

jb

[invertedisdead]

You might also try less hydration. Those look like pancakes. For the sticking, do you lightly oil your proofing containers? It makes the dough come out easier.

jb

What about balling with more tension like a boule?

[c4lin]

You might also try less hydration. Those look like pancakes. For the sticking, do you lightly oil your proofing containers? It makes the dough come out easier.

jb

I do oil them lightly, sometimes they take too much time to fall off. Will try to bulk rise longer...pizzas came out fine though

[TXCraig1]

I was sent a PM asking me to explain how to use the table with a specific example.

A) 64F for 24 hours.
B) Then into fridge @  36F until for 120 hours
C) Remove and temper for 2 hours before baking

How much IDY do I use?

Here is how the table works:

Note: I am ignoring the tempering time as not much is going to happen during the two hours to room temp after 120 hours in the fridge. Since it will be a bit faster than keeping it in the fridge, you might want to shorten the time at 36F used in the calculation below to reflect it - maybe use 115 hours instead of 120. Personally, I'd ignore it and error on the side of over-fermentation. I try to always error on the side of over-fermentation vs. under-fermentation.

Step 1 - Start where you want to finish. In this case (ignoring the 2 hour tempering), that's 120 hours at 36F (the green circle in the chart below).  Theoretically, for a particular dough, every time-temperature combination in any column is at the same state of readiness. Therefore,  a dough that takes 120 hours at 36F to be ready will also be ready in 11 hours at 64F (blue circle).

Step 2 - Slide up or (in this case) down the column until you get to the temperature row where you will do your bulk ferment. In this case, that's 64F. In the blue circle, you can see the chart is predicting 11 hours at 64F. Remember, we are not going to do 11 hours at 64F however. We are going to do 120 hours at 36F which is theoretically the same thing, but we do need to get the dough to that stage of readiness.

Step 3 - We want to bulk ferment for 24 hours at 64F. When we are done with the bulk ferment, we want the dough to need 11 more hours at 64F which is the same as 120 hours at 36F which is what we are going to do instead of the last 11 hours at 64F. Therefore, we add 24 hours to the 11 hours in the blue circle and get 35 hours. What this is saying is that if we make a dough that will be ready in 35 hours at 64F, with 11 hours remaining, we can move it to the fridge at 36F for the last 120 hours and get to the same place (theoretically). So we slide to the left until we find 35 hours (yellow circle). We see it falls between 30 and 37, so we split the difference. It's a bit closer to 37 than 30, and you could interpolate for a more precise answer if you like. In this case, I'm just splitting it down the middle.

Step 4 - Go straight up to the top of the chart, and that's how much yeast to use. In this case, it's between 0.02% and 0.03% (red box), so I'm saying 0.025% IDY.

This should get you close. The table is just intended to help you find a starting place. It's likely that the dough will benefit from a couple iterations of testing and tweaking the yeast or time quantities.

[Pete-zza]

Craig,

Is there a practical limit on the number of time and temperature combinations that can be used with your chart? Or are there transitional factors between sets of times and temperatures that might make the amount of yeast less accurate?

Peter

[TXCraig1]

Craig,

Is there a practical limit on the number of time and temperature combinations that can be used with your chart? Or are there transitional factors between sets of times and temperatures that might make the amount of yeast less accurate?

Peter

I've not tried it, but I think it would be helpful in finding a starting point with 3 time/temp stages as long as you weren't whipping the temperature back and forth 30-40F per stage.

I've used it quite a bit recently but only for 1 temp (bulk and ball at same temp or ball only). From 60-76F, and from 24-48 hours,  it's been spot on for me. The further from that you get the less I can attest to it though I do think it's going to be better than simply making a guess.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Craig,

This info has been really helpful!!...so I have a follow-up question about using the chart in reverse. I have a guess (!)  how to do it right, but would appreciate your guidance.

Scenario is that while doing a multi-day CF, let's say , 121 hours at 36F with IDY at .13% based on chart  (with no RT fermentation in this example) I decide that instead of baking at the original time of 121, that I need bake  sooner  Let's say 73 hours ..

If I'd known the new baking time when I mixed, I'd have used .26% IDY. So, assuming an RT exists of 64, can I drop down the chart in the .26% colum to 64F, see 7 hours, and add that to the 11 hours in the .13% column for that temperature, add them and get  18 hours at RT 64F to bring the dough to readiness?

Also, since  many people here (most?)  a few hours counter time after the RT, is that something that's not really usually calculated part of the chart calculation? Or is a multi-temp calculation needed for that as well?

Thanks!!

[TXCraig1]

Scenario is that while doing a multi-day CF, let's say , 121 hours at 36F with IDY at .13% based on chart  (with no RT fermentation in this example) I decide that instead of baking at the original time of 121, that I need bake  sooner  Let's say 73 hours ..

If I'd known the new baking time when I mixed, I'd have used .26% IDY. So, assuming an RT exists of 64, can I drop down the chart in the .26% colum to 64F, see 7 hours, and add that to the 11 hours in the .13% column for that temperature, add them and get  18 hours at RT 64F to bring the dough to readiness?

No, if you start needing 121 hours at 36F and ferment the dough to the 0.26% IDY column, you still need 73 hours which means you have been fermenting for 121-73=48 hours. From there if you finish at 64F, you only need 7 more hours making only 55 total, not the 73 you need.

Remember that (theoretically) every time-temp combination in a given column takes you to a dough that is ready to use, so your 0.13% IDY dough should be ready to use in 121 hours at 36F (green circle) or 11 hours at 64F (pink circle) or any other time-temp combination in that column.

The simplest way to get to 73 hours, assuming you could easily control temperature, would be to just slide down the column until you find something close to 73 hours - ferment at ~41F (red circle), but that probably not a realistic solution for most folks.

Let's say your only temperature choices are 36F and 64F. You have to find a combination of (a) time at 64F and (b) remaining time at 36F that equals (or is close to) 73 hours or vice versa. That's a little easier said than done.

So let's say you mixed your dough and as you were about to put it into the fridge, your wife comes in and says "I hate to tell you this, but you need to bake in 73 hours - not 121 like I told you last night. All you have to work with is the fridge at 36F and the counter at 64F. What do you do? We have to find some combination of time at 36F that when added to the remaining time needed at 64F totals to ~73 hours. You have to work in the blue boxes.

Looking at the pattern across the 36F row, you see that if we go all the way to the right, we still have a dough that needs 62 hours at 36F. To get to that point, we have fermented 121 – 62 = 59 hours. If we drop down the column to the 64F row, we see that we need another 6 hours at 64F. 59 + 6 = 65 hours total; not long enough.

You can see that the 36F row drops by about 10 hours per column over at the right side, so you could guess the next column would be about 52 hours. 121 - 52 = 69 hours at 36F. Likewise, you can guess that the next column off the chart to the right on the 64F row is probably about 5 hours. 69 + 5 = 74 hours, so 69 hours at 36F + another 5 at 64 is pretty close to the 73 hour goal.

You could work it the other way too, doing the first step at 64F. In this case, the table tells us we need 11 hours at 64F. Let's say we do 4 hours at 64F. We would have 7 left at 64F. Slide across the 64F row to 7 hours (there are 2 of them) and then slide up the columns to the 36F row, and you can see that we would need somewhere between 80 and 73 additional hours at 36F. Add that to the 4 hours we did at 64F, and we see that we are between 84 and 77 total hours. A bit too long.

If we do 5 hours at 64F (on the 64F slide right from 11 to 6 hours), the table tells us we would need 62 hours at 36F which is 68 hours total. A bit too short, so the answer is somewhere between 4 and 5 hours at 64F which leaves about 67 hours at 36F for a total of about 72 hours total.

Remember just as the chart was only intended to help you find a starting point with the expectation that some experimenting and tweaking would be necessary, it can't be expected to deliver hour-resolution accuracy for this sort of thing either. I do think it's better than a wild ass guess, but you will need to watch it for the last 8-12 hours and adjust the temperature as necessary if things are progressing faster or slower than desired.

Example 1 below is 36F first. Example 2 below is 64F first.

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Thanks Craig  ...I'm going to read this thoroughly tomorrow when I'm wide awake! I can see even in a quick scan, you game l  lots of great info here...so I don't want to rush it!   

[Jersey Pie Boy]

Okay, Wow! That's is such a huge help...Of course, being so non-math oriented, my brain exploded...Pow!

Along with all the the detail you provided, I can see that my original thought of how to do this was backward..I was adding hours instead of subtracting them (from the 11 in the 64F column. Since this math problem is the reverse of what I was trying to do in your explanation last week, it makes sense (even to me) that while I was adding hours then, I would be subtracting them now.

Clearly I gave you a doozy of a situation here, but your real-world explanation of why this might be needed seems just right to me...a need to bake sooner rather than later, when the dough has been planned for later...let's say the company you were expecting for Sunday night is now arriving Friday night.

Thanks for all this work, Craig.