Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Pete-zza on June 06, 2005, 03:11:38 PM

Title: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 06, 2005, 03:11:38 PM
Based on comments I have read on the forum, especially those from new members who are looking for a “good” NY style dough recipe, I have sensed that it might be useful to have a “roadmap” to help such persons zero in on a Lehmann recipe to try out.

As regular readers of the Lehmann thread know, I have made many versions and adaptations of the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe to fit several possible applications in a home environment. The principal focus has been on the 16-inch size, which is very typical of the classic NY street pizza, but recipes are available for just about all common pizza sizes, from 9-inch all the way up to 18-inches. (There is even a formulation for a 30-inch size for those with the wherewithal to make that size.) The basic Lehmann dough recipe is a real workhorse, and can be adapted in many ways to use different flours (from all-purpose flour to high-gluten flour), different hydration percents (from 60-67 %, although I prefer 63%), and different machines to make the dough, including stand mixers, food processors and bread machines. Hand kneading is also an option for smaller size pizzas. The Lehmann recipe can even be modified, if one chooses, to make use of preferments (starters), autolyse (rest periods), and room temperature fermentation rather than cold fermentation (refrigeration) that is standard practice with the Lehmann dough recipes. I have even made "mini" pizzas (2 1/2 ") using the Lehmann dough.

In the roadmap below, I have used a chronological approach to listing the recipes that have been posted at the Lehmann thread, starting at page 1 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html. However, in order to make more effective use of the roadmap, in the summaries of the recipes I have presented I have highlighted the pizza sizes since it is usually pizza size that one selects before anything else. A point to keep in mind is that a recipe for a 16-inch pizza size can also generally be used to make two 12-inch pizzas of the same thickness as the 16-inch size (or the recipe can be cut in half to make a single 12-inch pizza). This makes the recipes for the 16-inch size especially versatile since it allows one to make a 16-inch pizza on a big stone, tiles or a 16-inch pizza screen, or 12-inch pizzas on a smaller stone or screen.

In the summaries, I have intentionally omitted references in most cases to the ingredients that are present in all the recipes, such as yeast (IDY) and oil. Also, unless otherwise indicated, the thickness factors for all the recipes are 0.10, which is typical of the standard NY style pizza (anything greater than 0.10 will produce a slightly thicker crust). All doughs made from the recipes are subjected to cold fermentation (refrigeration), unless otherwise indicated.

In order to reach a particular reply (post), all that is necessary is to click either on the Reply number or the link appended to the particular entry.

Users of this roadmap may also want to be aware of a tool (called the Lehmann Pizza Dough Calculating Tool) that was developed by member Boy Hits Car (Mike) to use to calculate the ingredients and their amounts to make any size and number (up to 99) of dough balls based on the basic Lehmann dough formulation. The tool is an online tool hosted on the forum and can be accessed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html. Additional details on the tool and how it is used are available at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3477.new.html#new.

My intention is to keep the roadmap current as further adaptations of the Lehmann dough recipes evolve.

                                                           Pete-zza’s Lehmann Roadmap

First post, page 1 of the Lehmann thread: The basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe for 16-inch size, as adapted for home use from the commercial Lehmann NY style dough recipe: King Arthur Sir Lancelot high-gluten flour (KASL), 65% hydration, stand mixer. (Note that the basic recipe was subsequently changed to lower the amount of yeast used, even though the results using the higher amount of yeast were very good.)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html

Reply # 9, page 1 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5353.html#msg5353): 16-inch, KASL, 67% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5353.html#msg5353

Reply # 19, page 1 and top of page 2 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5395.html#msg5395): 16-inch, KASL, 60% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5395.html#msg5395

Reply # 29, page 2 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5431.html#msg5431): 14-inch, high-gluten flour, 62% hydration, recipe can be practiced on any machine (this post also has a tutorial on how to design pizzas). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5431.html#msg5431

Reply # 31, page 2 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442): 14-inch, Giusto brand high-gluten flour, 62% hydration, autolyse, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5442.html#msg5442

Reply # 51, page 3 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486): 16-inch, Giusto brand high-gluten flour, 60% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, bread machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5486.html#msg5486

Reply # 60, page 4 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5585.html#msg5585): Canadave's "Lehmann-inspired" recipe: Two 16-inch pizzas, 65% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5585.html#msg5585

Reply # 65, page 4 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635): 16-inch, King Arthur bread flour, vital wheat gluten, 63% hydration, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5635.html#msg5635

Reply # 67, page 4 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5638.html#msg5638): 16-inch, same as Reply # 65 but using all-purpose flour, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5638.html#msg5638

Reply # 68, page 4 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674): 12-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, hand kneading. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674

Reply # 75, page 4 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6394.html#msg6394): 9-inch, KA bread flour, vital wheat gluten, hand kneading, for toaster oven application. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6394.html#msg6394

Reply # 82, page 5 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541): 16-inch, KA bread flour, vital wheat gluten, sugar added, food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg6541.html#msg6541

Reply # 86, page 5 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg7407.html#msg7407): 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg7407.html#msg7407

Reply # 105, page 6 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8544.html#msg8544): 18-inch, high-gluten flour, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8544.html#msg8544

Reply # 106, page 6 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8546.html#msg8546): 17-inch, high-gluten flour, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, recipe can be practiced on any machine.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8546.html#msg8546

Reply # 107, page 6 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8589.html#msg8589): matrix for pizza sizes 12-inch to 17-inch, with hydration levels from 60-65%, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg8589.html#msg8589

Reply # 129, page 7 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061): par-baked dough, 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10061.html#msg10061

Reply # 132, page 7 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10461.html#msg10461): 13-inch, KASL, 62% hydration, IDY plus preferment, 0.105 thickness factor, room-temperature rise (a combination of overnight and during the day), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg10461.html#msg10461

Reply # 151, page 8 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774): 16-inch, KASL, 64% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, natural preferment only (in liquid form), Calvel autolyse, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg11774.html#msg11774

Reply # 161, page 9 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12367.html#msg12367): 16-inch, similar to recipe in Reply # 151 but without autolyse and the dough is made entirely in one day (9-hour room-temperature fermentation period), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12367.html#msg12367

Reply # 165, page 9 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644): 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, natural preferment (dough-like consistency, with overnight rise), no autolyse, room-temperature fermentation, same day dough, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12644.html#msg12644

Reply # 175, page 9 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748): 16-inch, same as recipe in Reply # 165, except (1) using an unrefreshed natural preferment with overnight rise and only in the quantity needed, (2) an autolyse, (3) food processor. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12748.html#msg12748

Reply # 186, page 10 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12874.html#msg12874): Adaptations of the basic Lehmann recipe (KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor) for 12-inch (single pizza or two pizzas), 14-inch and 16-inch, recipe can be practiced on any machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg12874.html#msg12874

Reply # 205, page 11 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669): 12-inch, basic Lehmann recipe but using (1) all-purpose flour, (2) 60% hydration, (3) 0.105 thickness factor, (4) vital wheat gluten, and (5) dried dairy whey; pizza screen (no stone), stand mixer. (See also related Reply # 204). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669

Reply # 260, page 14 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113): 18-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, bread machine. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17113.html#msg17113

Reply # 272, page 14 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428): 16-inch, KASL, 60% hydration, frozen dough with honey, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428

Reply # 279, page 14 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17691.html#msg17691): 18-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer (for a photo of an 18-inch pizza using this formulation and baked on a Forno Bravo outdoors oven, see the opening thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2003.0.html). http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17691.html#msg17691

Reply # 280, page 15 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956): 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, low-yeast (0.17% IDY, by weight of flour), low finished dough temperature (75 degrees F), stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17956.html#msg17956

Reply # 290 and Reply # 291, page 15 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18395.html#msg18395): "mini" dough rounds used to make "mini" pizzas (2 1/2" across), based on using a standard Lehmann 16-inch dough. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18395.html#msg18395

Reply # 297 and Reply # 298, page 15 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18918.html#msg18918): 9-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, food processor, baked on a bed of preheated rocks in a pan. See also Reply # 373 below for a stand mixer 15-inch version. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg18918.html#msg18918

Reply # 356, page 18 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg21477.html#msg21477): 30-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer. (Note: this is just a formulation only, and was prepared at the request of a member of the forum. It would be far too large to make in a home oven. A commercial oven would be needed, and quite possibly a 30-inch pizza screen or pan.) http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg21477.html#msg21477

Reply # 362, page 19 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239): 16-inch "take-and bake" Lehmann version using a commercial yeast biga, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.11 thickness factor, stand mixer. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg23239.html#msg23239

Reply # 373, page 19 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg24930.html#msg24930): 15-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, baked on a bed of preheated rocks in a 15 3/4" perforated pizza pan. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg24930.html#msg24930

Reply # 389, page 20 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720): 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, baked entirely on a 16-inch pizza screen (i.e., without a stone). Is a good candidate for summer time baking because of short oven bake time--about one half hour. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg26720.html#msg26720

Replies # 407 and 408, page 21 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251): 12-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, 0.105 thickness factor, stand mixer, same-day, few-hours versions (3 hours, including 2 hours of cold fermentation; and 2 hours, room-temperature fermentation only).
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251

Reply # 424, page 22 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27372.html#msg27372): 16-inch, KASL, 63% hydration, stand mixer, pre-bake before dressing, uses only a pizza screen (no stones/tiles). Is a good candidate for summer time baking because of short oven bake time--about one-half hour.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27372.html#msg27372

Edit: For other (non-Lehmann) NY style dough formulations, see the collection at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11860.0.html.

Edit (5/22/20): For Lehmann NY style doughs capable of cold fermentation for up to a few weeks or more, see the thread at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251#msg33251






Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: scott r on June 06, 2005, 03:57:47 PM
Peter, this is going to help a lot.   I was having a tough time last night finding the version I was looking for.

I ordered some KASL today and king arthur said they stopped selling the 5 pound bags.   Now they sell 3 pound bags.....weird???
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: pftaylor on June 08, 2005, 07:47:26 PM
If there was ever a pizza hall of fame, Pete-zza would have to be an inaugural member. The amount of work which went into creating all the variations of the Lehmann formula is enormous.

Pete-zza never ceases to amaze me with the generosity of his time and expertise. I am in awe of the magnitude of his consistent giving to this community. The roadmap post is the culmination of countless hours of responding and materially helping others.

He is a treasured resource which deserves the utmost respect.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 08, 2005, 07:59:11 PM
pft,

Thank you for posting that tribute exactly as I wrote it up :). The check is in the mail.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: pftaylor on June 08, 2005, 09:38:28 PM
Pete-zza,
I'm appalled at your intransigence. You said I would be paid in cool cash.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: tjacks88 on June 10, 2005, 10:27:13 PM
Peter,

Thanks for posting this, now I can print this out as an index then print all of them out to keep in a binder rather than searching for them all of the time.

Scott,
That's interesting about the KASL going from 5lb to 3lb bags. I really like that flour the best, I hope they don't discontinue it. Is 3lb the only size or can you get larger?

Peter - can you recommend another good high gluten flour just in case (do you know what is the most common brand used by the NY Pizzerias?)

Thanks

Tom
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 10, 2005, 11:40:49 PM
Tom,

Unfortunately, King Arthur has virtually no competition in the consumer space. All of the majors, like General Mills, Pillsbury and Bay State, have high-gluten flours in their product lineup but they come in very large bags (typically 25-50 lbs.) and are not sold at the retail level. If you are able to locate a foodservice distributor/wholesaler near you willing to sell on a cash and carry basis, as scott did recently with the KASL, that would be the best way to go. I don't know what the most common brand of high-gluten flour is among NY pizzerias, but if I had to guess I would say All Trumps, from General Mills. It's a good flour, although not quite as good as the KASL.

BTW, some members identified a company that sells the large bags of KASL to consumers. If you are interested, I'm sure I can come up with the name. I don't know how good they are, but it might be a good starting point to investigate further.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: scott r on June 11, 2005, 01:36:11 AM
tjacks88, They indicated that they no longer sell 5 pound bags.  I am hoping this just means they are out of 5 pound bags.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: tjacks88 on June 11, 2005, 08:55:58 AM
Scott,

I went on the web page for KA and it looks like they have repackaged several of their flours in 3lb bags.

Peter,

That would be great if you could pass on the source to buy the KASL in a larger quantity when you have a chance. I don't mind buying a bigger bag, I can store it. I really like this flour - I was surprised out how much better it looked and felt than your average flour before even using it, plus it tastes and works the best. I guess plan B would be to talk to the local pizza place. I'm also trying to figure out how to get Grande cheese. I have been using the 6 in 1 tomatoes from Escalon and really like them.

Thanks,

Tom
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 11, 2005, 11:11:02 AM
Tom,

The outfit whose name I was trying to think of is Dutch Valley Foods. You can read about them, as well as our members' experiences with that company, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1140.msg10114.html#msg10114. You should also take note of fellow member Wayno's recommendations, also at the linked thread, of finding a possible source of the KASL from an approved KA reseller/distributor. That avenue may or may not work out, but I definitely think it is worth a try.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: wayno on June 11, 2005, 05:23:52 PM
Yes.  It worked for me!  I was able to get 2 bags of KASL (50 lbs each) for a total of $40 including the tip to the restaurant manager.  There is no shipping charge!!!
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: tjacks88 on June 11, 2005, 05:46:26 PM
Did you just start asking around at restaurants in your area? The one guy I did talk to at a pizza place out here was worried I was trying to compete with him :D
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on August 20, 2005, 10:27:28 PM
Just a note to say that I modified the Lehmann Roadmap today to reference a new version of a Lehmann recipe (at Reply # 205 of the Lehmann thread) that uses all-purpose flour, vital wheat gluten, and dried dairy whey. It is the best all-purpose version of the Lehmann recipe I have made to date, after many unsuccessful attempts.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product, with greater detail provided at Reply # 205 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg15669.html#msg15669.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on September 27, 2005, 03:24:53 PM
Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to reference my most recent Lehmann NY style pizza--an 18-inch pizza using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour, 63% hydration, and use of a bread machine to knead the dough.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product, described more fully at Reply # 260 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.260.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2005, 01:33:17 PM
Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to reference my most recent Lehmann NY style pizza--a 16-inch pizza using the King Arthur Sir Lancelot (KASL) flour, 60% hydration, a frozen Lehmann dough using honey, and a stand mixer to knead the dough.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product (Italian sausage with green peppers and mushrooms), described more fully at Reply # 272, at page 14, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg17428.html#msg17428 (see also Reply # 273).

Peter


Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: pam on October 09, 2005, 07:21:04 PM
Pete-zza,
I'm appalled at your intransigence. You said I would be paid in cool cash.
Pete-zza, next time you need someone to post a tribute, don't waste your money on PFT: I'll post it for two 16" of your NY masterpieces or 1 NY and 1 Chicago-style. :grin:
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on October 09, 2005, 07:41:36 PM
LOL... :)

I would pay pftaylor just for words like intransigence and denouement :). He's trying to make this a classier place.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: pam on October 11, 2005, 12:50:48 AM
LOL... :)

I would pay pftaylor just for words like intransigence and denouement :). He's trying to make this a classier place.

Peter
So does that mean you won't be sending my any of your masterpieces?  :'(

:)
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on October 11, 2005, 01:08:31 AM
pam,

Maybe you have heard this proverb: Give a man a pizza and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to make a pizza and you feed him for a lifetime :).

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: pam on October 11, 2005, 08:46:18 PM
pam,

Maybe you have heard this proverb: Give a man a pizza and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to make a pizza and you feed him for a lifetime :).

Peter
I completely agree. But, as the saying goes, "experience is the best teacher," which means that you need to send me a couple of pies so I can learn from experience. ;D
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on October 23, 2005, 02:04:20 PM
I updated the Lehmann Roadmap today to to refer to a recent experiment I conducted with the basic Lehmann dough recipe in which I lowered the amount of yeast (IDY) to 0.17% (by weight of flour), or about 1/5 teaspoon of IDY for a dough ball weighing a bit over 20 ounces. I also lowered the finished dough temperature to 75 degrees F, in an effort to slow down the degree and rate of fermentation so that the useful life of the dough can be extended beyond the typical 48-hour period yet be manageable.

See the photo below for an example of the finished product (a 16-inch vegetarian pizza with sauteed and fresh sliced mushrooms, green peppers, roasted red peppers, and caramelized onions). The results, described and shown more fully at Reply # 280, page 15, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.280.html, indicate that very good oven spring and an open and airy crust and crumb can be achieved in a cold fermented (refrigerated) dough using minuscule amounts of yeast.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on November 07, 2005, 03:22:29 PM
The Lehmann Roadmap was updated today to refer to use of the basic Lehmann dough to make "mini" pizzas (2 1/2" across). The photo below is an example of what the mini pizzas look like. The process for making the mini pizzas is described at the Lehmann thread at Reply #290 and Reply #291, at page 15, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.280.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on November 21, 2005, 12:28:48 PM
I updated the Lehmann Roadmap today to refer to a 9-inch Lehmann pizza that was baked on a bed of hot rocks. I am not sure whether the best description of the pizza is Lehmann Rocks !! or Lehmann on the Rocks, but the photo below shows the finished results. Further detail is provided at Reply # 297 and Reply # 298, at page 15, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.280.html.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on January 24, 2006, 11:04:29 AM
Today, at the request of fellow member Buffalo, I posted a formulation for the Lehmann NY style dough for a 30-inch size, at Reply # 356, page 18, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.new#new. Of course, this size cannot be baked in a normal home oven. A commercial oven would be required, and possibly a 30-inch pizza screen (or something else that would be equivalent to it) to be able to load the pizza into the oven. I believe the largest Lehmann pizza to date was around 19 inches. The largest I have made is 18 inches, the biggest size my oven can accommodate, and it was very impressive looking. I'd like Buffalo (or anyone else) to set a new record for the Lehmann dough :).

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: 007bond-jb on January 25, 2006, 09:55:46 AM
Hey Peter I think it would be a good idea to keep your road map at the top of the list like the New members introduce yourself one is. Or put into its own area
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on January 25, 2006, 10:10:53 AM
007bond-jb,

I think your suggestion has merit, but I didn't want to be so presumptuous as to suggest it myself. I have been able to keep the two threads within reasonable earshot of each other in the thread listings by updating the roadmap whenever I post a new formulation or other significant content at the Lehmann thread, but if Steve feels that it is appropriate to lock the two threads--if that is doable--I will leave that to his discretion.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to make the suggestion.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Ronzo on January 25, 2006, 11:29:03 AM
Peter,

I second the motion to make this thread a sticky!

 ;D
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: enob on January 25, 2006, 11:00:14 PM
Pete:
Thanks so much for this thread it is a big help for us new members
also and I think i can speak for everyone in this site thank you for all the time and effort you spend here helping us all out.

Sincerely
Mike
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on January 26, 2006, 08:37:48 AM
Mike,

Thank you.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on February 19, 2006, 04:23:03 PM
I updated the Lehmann Roadmap today to refer to a 16-inch "take-and-bake" version of the Lehmann NY style dough. Although I plan to continue to improve the dough formulation, the latest effort represents my best results to date for the take-and-bake style. The photo below is an example of the finished pizza. Additional details are provided at Reply 362 at page 19, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.new#new.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on March 20, 2006, 07:38:51 AM
Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to refer to a 15-inch Lehmann NY style pizza that was baked on a bed of rocks in a 15 3/4" perforated pizza pan. Details are available at Reply 373 at page 19 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.360.html. A typical photo of the pizza is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on May 25, 2006, 09:54:22 AM
Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to refer to a 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza that was baked entirely on a 16-inch pizza screen, i.e., without using a pizza stone. By using the screen, the pizza can be baked more quickly than using a pizza stone, which ordinarily requires a long preheat at high oven temperatures. Hence, this option has value when baking pizzas in the summer where hot temperatures prevail and there is reluctance to heat up an oven and stone for an hour or more (and with a long cool down time). Additional details are provided at Reply 389, at page 20, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.380.html. A typical photo is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 14, 2006, 05:28:54 PM
Today I updated the Lehmann Roadmap to refer to two 12-inch pizzas that were made using same-day, few-hours dough. One is based on using a dough with 2 hours of cold fermentation, followed by 1 hour of counter warm-up time, and the other is based on using a dough with 2 hours of room-temperature fermentation only. Both pizzas were baked on a pizza screen, requiring about one-half hour of total oven time, making them ideal for baking in the summertime. Details are available at Replies 407 and 408, at page 21, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27251.html#msg27251. The photo below shows one of the pizzas.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 17, 2006, 01:39:17 PM
Today I made what I consider to be a significant improvement to the Lehmann Roadmap set forth in the first post of this thread. The improvement is to embed in each entry the link to the Reply mentioned. That way, there is no need to find the specific page and then the Reply number in order to read about the Lehmann dough and pizza discussed in the Reply. The embedded link will take the reader directly to the post. Actually, there are two ways to get to the desired Reply: clicking on the Reply number or the link appended at the end of the corresponding entry. (Kind of like belt and suspenders.)

I wish I could take credit for the improvement, but the idea came from one of our new members, enchant (Pat). Not only did Pat suggest the improvement, but he also tracked down the links for all the Replies listed in the Lehmann Roadmap and provided them to me in a format that I could use to incorporate them into the Roadmap. That saved me a lot of time.

Even though the reader will be taken directly to posts by using the embedded links, I will most likely continue the practice of specifying the Reply number and page number since they may be useful for those who may print out pages for future reference. I will also continue my practice of informing people of when I have updated the Roadmap, which will also include links to the relevant pages.

And to Pat, I say "thank you very much" for helping make the Roadmap better. I'm sure that the changes will be much appreciated by our members.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: enob on June 18, 2006, 10:57:36 PM
you got my vote and thanks
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: enchant on June 18, 2006, 11:32:38 PM
And to Pat, I say "thank you very much" for helping make the Roadmap better.
It's really the very least I could do to repay this community for the whopping improvement in my pizza over the past few months.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on June 19, 2006, 10:20:40 AM
The Lehmann Roadmap was updated today to refer to a 16-inch Lehmann NY style pizza that was baked entirely on a pizza screen (i.e., no pizza stone/tiles), with the objective of producing a crispy bottom crust. To accomplish this result, a pre-bake of the dough (docked) was used, following which the pizza was dressed and finished baking. This pizza makes a good candidate for summer time baking since the oven is on for about one-half hour only. For additional details, see Reply 424 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg27372.html#msg27372. A typical photo of the pizza is shown below.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: mr782xx on October 20, 2010, 03:04:32 PM
Pete-zza is THE MAN when it comes to detailed pizza making instructions.   

My two-cents worth on the flour conversation:

I like KA flours as well, but I've grown just as fond of All Trumps HG flour for NY Style pies.  I use KA bread flour for making American style, only.

All Trumps, as well as Caputo 00, can be had in 5 and 50 lb sacks on Penn Mac's website.  Though I don't use them much anymore (I got a "hook-up" with a food distributor) I like Penn Mac, because they cater to us home-based, pizza making, pizza-aholics. :chef:

http://www.pennmac.com/page/27

Though they carry about everything you need to make awesome pizza, I'm very fond of them for the types of pepperoni and cheese they stock (East Coast Blend, and Margherita pepperoni & two types of Ezzo pepperoni) and quantities you can buy (restaurant size). 

I know that's allot of food, but it freezes well (sauce too).  And no, the cheese isn't quite as good as not being frozen, but it's so close I dare you to do a taste test (I did).  My guess is the average person cant' tell the difference.

Hope the info helps someone out there.

Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: james456 on November 22, 2010, 03:49:26 PM
Pete-zza,

I have a request: whenever you next make a NY style pizza, using your favourite formulation, can you take a picture of the bottom of the crust so I can compare the level of browning (and char) of your crust to mine?

I don't have the opportunity to buy a NY style pizza to compare since I'm in the UK, so I'm using the pictures I find on here to replicate the look of the crust in my specific oven.  :chef:
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on November 22, 2010, 08:04:25 PM
james456,

I use the Lehmann NY style dough formulation to conduct experiments and tests but it has been a while since I used just the basic Lehmann formulation all by itself. However, the photo at the bottom of Reply 129 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7225.msg92095.html#msg92095 is typical of what I get in my home oven with a typical Lehmann dough with my particular oven configuration (i.e., type of oven, type and size of stone, oven rack positioning, oven temperature, bake duration, etc.). For some reason, I did not think to post bottom crust photos for most, if not all, of the pizzas in the Roadmap and other threads where I used the Lehmann dough formulation. I think in good measure it was because I used the same pizza making protocol for just about all of my Lehmann doughs, in order to rule out the protocol itself as a variable, and the finished pizzas and the crust bottoms were pretty much the same as a result. In some cases, I simply said that the bottom crusts had the same color as the rims. On rare occasion, I will depart from my normal Lehmann protocol and do something different, as I did when I moved the pizza stone to a higher oven position, as I described at Reply 830 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg96046.html#msg96046. You can see the bottom crust color at the bottom of Reply 831 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg96047.html#msg96047.

In your case, because you are in the UK, you may not get the same results because your flours and oven are likely to be different that what I and others use in the U.S. However, since I use mostly bread flours (with or without vital wheat gluten), and since there seem to be some good bread flours in the UK, you might be able to get results comparable to what I get if your oven and oven protocol (including the type of pizza stone) are up to the task.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: vincentoc13 on July 17, 2013, 07:53:44 PM
Pete-zza's,

Thank you so much for your generosity by making the road map, I'm a newbe and will definitely take advantage of it.

I went to the Penmac website and they offer bromated and unbromated all trumps flour.  In your opinion which one of these should I use for NY style pizza?

Thank you, Vince.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on July 17, 2013, 08:12:57 PM
Vince,

There are differences of opinion on the use of bromated and unbromated flours for the NY style of pizza. However, I would say that most of the pizza operators who specialize in that style in the NYC and surrounding areas use bromated flours. And, according to General Mills, the most popular brand of flour for the NY style is the All Trumps flour. That said, there are some members who are expert on that style, including scott123, who prefer using flours (bromated) with protein contents less than the All Trumps, which logs in at a protein content of 14.2%. Unfortunately, PennMac does not offer such flours. If authenticity is your objective, and your choices are between the bromated and unbromated forms of the all Trumps, then your choice would be the bromated form.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: vincentoc13 on July 17, 2013, 09:17:40 PM
Peter,

Thank you very much for your response.
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on July 18, 2013, 05:19:01 AM
Vince,

My pleasure.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: SpaceFuzz on August 05, 2013, 05:21:23 PM
Amazing job Pete-zza man

Good stuff

Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: JonDeaneStewart on January 10, 2014, 07:17:26 PM
Peter,

Thank you for this. I've been looking through some of your recipes and was wondering where you landed on for your favorite recipe? What turned out the best?

There are so many different versions you have and I was having trouble keeping track of which was your most successful (preferably something using KASL)

Thanks!

Jon
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: wahoo88 on January 10, 2014, 08:12:46 PM
Peter,

Thank you for this. I've been looking through some of your recipes and was wondering where you landed on for your favorite recipe? What turned out the best?

There are so many different versions you have and I was having trouble keeping track of which was your most successful (preferably something using KASL)

Thanks!

Jon

Jon,
Peter will correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think that there is necessarily a 'best' recipe here.  Rather, you can choose a recipe that uses the factors that you cannot change, or would prefer not to change (i.e. KASL).  Some other factors that could guide you to a recipe would be size of available baking surface, fermentation length requirements, stretching skills (lower hydration being easier to handle), and access to a mixer. Once you have identified your constraints, then you can select a recipe that falls within them.  Peter has shown on the big Lehmann thread (to which this thread references) that even very different methods of preparation can produce similar results when the standard Lehmann formula and workflow are used as a template for change.

Best of luck and be sure to post your results!
Dan
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on January 11, 2014, 03:39:16 PM
Jon,

Dan is essentially correct.

To provide some background, the original Lehmann thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.0.html)) was started in late September, 2004 as the result of my volunteering to take a commercial NY style dough formulation and to try to adapt it to a home setting. At the time, what most of us had were basic stand mixers (like the KitchenAid machines), pizza stones, peels, maybe a pizza screen or two, and standard electric or gas ovens. Some members had food processors and bread makers but some had no such machine at all to make their dough. There were only a few members who had scales and it was only considerably later that good digital scales became popular. The pizza stones were the typical Cordierite stones or the FibraMent stones. Steel plates and soapstone stones were nowhere to be found. They came much later.

So, I started by making the most basic version of the Lehmann NY style dough, using the basic collection of items mentioned above. Little by little, I started making the Lehmann dough in other ways. As I was doing this, I was also learning about things like autolyse and sourdough starters and other preferments, and these, as well as other methods, were eventually incorporated into my Lehmann doughs. I was also learning about various flours, vital wheat gluten and other ingredients, and how to manipulate the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation to use these ingredients. In the past, I have referred to the Lehmann dough as my guinea pig upon which to conduct experiments. And that is how I used the Lehmann formulation. As a result, the Lehmann thread was a great learning experience for me.

While I can't point to an absolute favorite among the many Lehmann NY style doughs I made, I would say the the ones that were based on using natural starters perhaps produced the most flavorful crusts. But they are among the hardest to make, because of all of the factors that go into creating the starters and then maintaining them so that they are at the ready when the urge strikes to make naturally leavened Lehmann doughs.

The above said, we have had many members who started with the basic Lehmann NY style dough formulation in order to get their feet wet with that style. I think the fact that my posts were laid out in great detail, with a lot of discussion of technique and science and the math involved, was a big help to those who wanted or needed a lot of detail. However, it was common for members to enjoy initial success but to eventually long for something better. That is when they started doing things like changing the ingredients and/or their quantities and also to change the thickness factors (usually to lower them) and hydration values. Many also chose to use bromated flours, either high-gluten flour or a somewhat lower protein flour, but still bromated. Over time, the members ended up with versions of the Lehmann dough that were personalized to their personal tastes and preferences. And, that is how I essentially view the Lehmann NY style dough formulation--a formulation that is a good starting point but which can be modified in so many different ways.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: JonDeaneStewart on January 13, 2014, 12:29:40 AM
Peter,

Thank you very much for your reply! Dan you too.

I made my first Lehmann crust tonight using your Lehmann NY Style Dough Recipe for 9-inch Pizza with KASL. I doubled the recipe, used a Food Processor, Pizza Stone, and allowed the dough to sit in the fridge for 48 hours.

Up until this point I had been using the Peter Reinhart recipe with a few modifications I had made (I've only recently become a "serious" pizza maker). My friends have been coming over each week to try out my new crust and this was the first time I switched the recipe entirely, so it was definitely a risk. I have to say we were all blown away! This recipe turned out a full notch or two better than the Reinhart New York style I had been using.

Thank you! It was absolutely fantastic and I will continue to read your forum etc for ideas on how to improve. One thing I was amazed about was how much simpler this recipe was to make due to the low number of ingredients!

Thanks a ton! This  was by far the closest pizza crust I've ever made to that true "pizzeria crust".

I'll include a picture next time -- but when it came out of the oven tonight my friends descended upon it because it looked so damn tasty!

Jon
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on January 13, 2014, 10:23:32 AM
Jon,

I'm glad that things worked out for you. If you are like many other members of the forum, the time is likely to come where you want an even better NY style pizza. So, in due course, you might find yourself wanting to tweak the recipe you used. One short term change might be to use a smaller thickness factor. When I first started the Lehmann NY thread, there were no dough ball weights stated in relation to pizza size. So, I relied on information gleaned from other places. That led to a thickness factor of about 0.10-0.105. While I was happy with that range of thickness factors, and there are some chain NY pizzas that use something in that range, a more conventional thickness factor among the more traditional pizza makers might be something in the range of 0.075-0.08.

A longer term change might be to go to a steel plate. But there is no hurry to go to that point. Learning to make and manage a dough consistently is perhaps more important at this juncture. However, if you are so inclined, there is no harm in reading what other members have done with their steel plates.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: dsm on February 09, 2016, 08:28:15 PM
Pete,

Wow, an amazing body of work! I'm a little overwhelmed by options in the roadmap. I've made a few dozen neapolitan pizzas in a new FGM 950b WFO over the last two months and I'm ready to try something different. I love NY style pizza so this has got to be next. Which of the many options due you recommend for a WFO and 15" peel? What surface temp? Should I keep a fire or clear it out? I've got a couple of starters active I can use as well as both fleishmans and red star yeasts.

steve
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on February 10, 2016, 01:15:32 PM
steve,

Thank you very much for the kind words. The Lehmann thread, which dates back to September, 2004, when I was essentially a novice pizza maker, was a wonderful learning experience for me. I found that the basic Lehmann NY style formulation lent itself to all kinds of experimentation, so I took advantage of that as much as I could, both for my own education and maybe to help others at the same time.

However, the above said, inasmuch as I do not have a WFO, I may not be the best one to advise you on how to best use the Lehmann formulation in the context of a WFO. The Lehmann formulation was adapted for use in connection with a commercial deck oven. My job when I volunteered to work on the Lehmann dough formulation was to try to adapt it to a home oven, which usually meant an electric or gas oven with maybe a pizza stone. However, over the years I tried to pay attention to what ovens and bake temperatures and bake times professionals used who specialized in the NY style. I found deck ovens with bake temperatures as low as 450 degrees F and with bake times of over ten minutes, and bake temperatures that approached 650 degrees F with bake times of around four or five minutes. I would say that most, and especially the NY slice pizzas, fell on the lower or middle part of the temperature range.

With specific reference to the WFO NY style, one member who did a lot of good work making NY style pizzas, both the elite style and the more basic NY style, in his WFO is Jackie Tran, best know to us as Chau. So, pending any other suggestions from our members, you may want to take a look at the thread that Chau started and advanced at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14201.msg142282#msg142282.

You might also want to take a look at Chau's thread where he tried to replicate a well-known NY style pizza, at:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=18671.msg180950#msg180950.

In the above thread, Chau used an LBE (Little Black Egg) at around 625-650 degrees F, but the concepts and principles involved should be useful in the context of a WFO.

I'd also like to suggest that you go to the New York style board, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=24.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=24.0), and enter the search term WFO in the search box at the top right hand corner of the page. That will give you access to a lot more posts on using a WFO for the NY style, including posts by other members. If you'd like, you can narrow the search by using more search terms to give you fewer hits. But the objective is to immerse yourself in the body of knowledge that pertains to the making of NY style pizzas in a WFO.

Good luck.

Peter
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: tinroofrusted on February 10, 2016, 07:30:02 PM
Peter's suggestions are right on as usual.  Member bakeshack has made some very good looking NY style pizzas in his WFO which are shown here:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19065.25

He gives a formula for naturally leavened NY style for WFO and posts some pretty awesome photos of NY style WFO pizzas.  Just about anyone would love to tear into one of those pizzas. 

BTW, the reference to "CM" in the recipe is to Central Milling flour. 
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: dsm on February 10, 2016, 09:09:03 PM
Thanks for the pointers. I just dove in those links for an hour or two and after going about 5 levels deep in engaging but decade old discussions came up for air. I'm not sure I can ever try a hundredth of these suggestions or even catch up to real time in this board :-). There are clearly a lot of people in the world who like NY style pizza! I did find a number of WFO discussions. Thanks again.

steve
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: davey1025 on October 16, 2018, 01:06:07 PM
pft,

Thank you for posting that tribute exactly as I wrote it up :). The check is in the mail.

Peter

Does that mean I still have to post mine you paid me for? lol
Title: Re: Pete-zza's Roadmap to the Lehmann NY Style Recipes
Post by: Pete-zza on October 16, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
Does that mean I still have to post mine you paid me for? lol

 :-D :-D :-D

Peter