Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 05:42:38 PM

Title: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 05:42:38 PM
This is my first pass at a Johnny’s clone. Having never tasted the real thing makes cloning somewhat nebulous, notwithstanding, I’m very pleased how it came out. Thanks to Mmmph and pdog for getting this ball rolling. It’s something I’ve been thinking about doing for a long time and have kept putting off. Thanks also to scott123 for some valuable insight provided offline.

The formula is basically Mmmph’s with a bit more salt and oil: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33684.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33684.0)

Total Formula
100% KABP
60% RO water
2.5% salt
2% oil
0.057% IDY

I only made one ball – I was mostly curious about how it would handle. I mixed and kneaded it by hand.

Preferment:
100g flour
100g water
2.2 grains IDY (1 grain = 1/7000lb – measured with a reloading scale)

The preferment was left covered at RT (75F) for 12 hours.

Added to the preferment:
148g flour
49g water
6g salt
5g vegetable oil

Total formula:
248g flour
149g water  (60%)
6g salt (2.4%)
5g oil (2.0%)
0.143g IDY (.0576%)

This yielded about 400g dough after bowl residue.  I cut it down to 375g. I thought I would make a 15” pie with TF = 0.075. I didn’t measure my stone first, and it’s only 14.5”, so the pie actually came in at TF=0.080. Next time, I will probably try 350g for a true TF=0.075. I wouldn’t be surprised if I end up at 330g (TF=0.70).

I gave the final dough a two hour rest in the fridge (it was only going to be 20 minutes, but I fell asleep) and then one set of stretch and folds. It looked very nice, so I balled it and put it in the fridge (because I misread Mmmph’s post where he said he put it in his wine cooler at 64F). I left it in the fridge for 36 hours. This morning, I took it out and left it on the counter (75F) for about 6 hours and it was perfect. Another 6 hours in the fridge would not have hurt anything, so this is probably how I will do it in the future for an evening bake.

I rolled the dough out to 15”. The dough handled beautifully. It didn’t resist at all. I picked it up and stretched it out to about 16” by hand and then laid it out on my peel (15”) and helped it shrink back to 15”.

I topped it with very thinly sliced Boar’s Head WM aged mozz, I didn’t use any shreds (didn’t have any). I will use a bit more cheese next time. I didn’t use any white cheddar. I might try a tiny amount in the future. The mozz we have here just doesn’t have much flavor. 

After the cheese, I spooned on an even coat (across the entire surface of cheese) of a very thin sauce I made with Pomi tomato sauce (the Pomi sauce is tomato only. It does not have any other ingredients like most tomato sauces), a small pinch of oregano, salt to taste, and evoo. I didn’t measure anything. I will use a bit less evoo next time – just enough to get it to the point where if you added any more it would separate noticeably. I can get away with using a lot more evoo in the sauce I use for “NP” cheese pies in the WFO. This sauce requires a bit more finesse. The flavor of the sauce was really good. I’d use the Pomi sauce for this again. After the sauce, I put down some freshly cracked black pepper and a light sprinkling of grated pecorino romano.

I baked the pie at 550F w/convection on a 1/2” cordierite stone that was preheated for over an hour. I didn’t time the bake, but it was probably in the ballpark of 7 minutes. The pie was not quite as browned/charred on the bottom as I would have like, but it wasn’t disappointing light either.

Overall, the pie was really good. There was lots of flavor in the crust (for baker’s yeast); it was nicely crispy but not tough. I will be making more of these.

Below: a Johnny’s pie (from the internet - http://www.travelandeats.com/johnnys-pizzeria-best-ny-pizza (http://www.travelandeats.com/johnnys-pizzeria-best-ny-pizza)) on the left and mine on the right:

EDIT (3/31/16): The flour, KABP, should be KABF (King Arthur Bread Flour); for additional flour options, see Reply 130 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33831.msg423975#msg423975 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33831.msg423975#msg423975), et seq.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 05:43:28 PM
 More pics of my pie:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 05:43:51 PM
The sauce:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Mmmph on August 30, 2014, 05:47:19 PM
Have you ever eaten a Johnny's Pizza?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 05:50:00 PM
Have you ever eaten a Johnny's Pizza?

No. I say so in the second sentence...
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Donjo911 on August 30, 2014, 06:03:46 PM
Craig,
That is amazing. To say you do nothing half-assed would be an understatement.  That's very impressive. Especially having read over the past few days from the time frame and the genesis of your decision to try it, to actual execution of the plan. Very well done. I'm jealous of your mind and your skill (again!)
Cheers,
Don
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Mmmph on August 30, 2014, 06:04:26 PM
Sorry...missed it. Yours looks great.

I tried Boar's Head today...It's good, but it's not right.

I used Polly-O deli sliced last week. It's really close.

How's Pomi compared to 6N1, flavorwise? I'm sure I've read that you tried them.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Johnny the Gent on August 30, 2014, 06:05:08 PM
Don pretty much nailed it. WOW - that looks PDG (pretty darn good)!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on August 30, 2014, 06:43:11 PM
Craig,

Your Johnny's clone looks delicious!

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 07:09:41 PM
How's Pomi compared to 6N1, flavorwise? I'm sure I've read that you tried them.

Not as rich as you would expect given the thinness. Still, solid tomato flavor. Very smooth - not a trace of unevenness in the texture. I don't think your sauce can have much body at all for this pizza.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 30, 2014, 07:42:17 PM
Nice write up and good looking pie C.  :chef:

I notice you answered your own question once posed to me about sacrificing an upturned slice for photogenic sake.  >:D
Flip this style of pie slice back over within the 5 sec. rule an it still eats like brand new money, eh?  :)

Wonder how sliced Grande WM would be on this.....or maybe Tom`s Oaxaca? 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: shuboyje on August 30, 2014, 07:54:05 PM
Just more evidence that you are the best pizza make in America Craig.  I don't say that to feed your ego, and I don't think you are that type regardless, but it is something I truly believe.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 30, 2014, 08:02:58 PM
Just more evidence that you are the best pizza make in America Craig.  I don't say that to feed your ego, and I don't think you are that type regardless, but it is something I truly believe.
I agree shu.  8)

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Mmmph on August 30, 2014, 08:38:06 PM
I don't think your sauce can have much body at all for this pizza.

Agreed. As I've said, 6n1, Classico crushed (R.I.P.), or Tomato Magic is the right flavor...with a buttery, funky mozzarella underneath to key it all.
The flavor profile of Johnny's is unique to any other pizza I've had. I can dig Varasano's passion for Johnny's.
Joe's on Carmine is close in cheese/sauce, but their dough is weak compared to This pizza.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on August 30, 2014, 08:52:25 PM
Agreed. As I've said, 6n1, Classico crushed (R.I.P.), or Tomato Magic is the right flavor...with a buttery, funky mozzarella underneath to key it all.
The flavor profile of Johnny's is unique to any other pizza I've had. I can dig Varasano's passion for Johnny's.
Joe's on Carmine is close in cheese/sauce, but their dough is weak compared to This pizza.
Such as Grande?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 09:04:16 PM
Just more evidence that you are the best pizza make in America Craig.  I don't say that to feed your ego, and I don't think you are that type regardless, but it is something I truly believe.

Wow. Thanks! That really means a lot.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 09:04:58 PM
Agreed. As I've said, 6n1, Classico crushed (R.I.P.), or Tomato Magic is the right flavor...with a buttery, funky mozzarella underneath to key it all.
The flavor profile of Johnny's is unique to any other pizza I've had. I can dig Varasano's passion for Johnny's.
Joe's on Carmine is close in cheese/sauce, but their dough is weak compared to This pizza.

I'll get into town next week and see if I can find a better mozz.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 09:06:55 PM
Nice write up and good looking pie C.  :chef:

I notice you answered your own question once posed to me about sacrificing an upturned slice for photogenic sake.  >:D
Flip this style of pie slice back over within the 5 sec. rule an it still eats like brand new money, eh?  :)

Wonder how sliced Grande WM would be on this.....or maybe Tom`s Oaxaca?

No slices were wasted in the documenting of this pizza  :-D

Since this was really just an experiment, I knew one slice was going to get flipped for pictures. I had already prepared myself.  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 09:08:10 PM
Craig,
That is amazing. To say you do nothing half-assed would be an understatement.  That's very impressive. Especially having read over the past few days from the time frame and the genesis of your decision to try it, to actual execution of the plan. Very well done. I'm jealous of your mind and your skill (again!)
Cheers,
Don

Thanks to Mmmph. His work saved me a ton of time.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 30, 2014, 09:09:13 PM
Don pretty much nailed it. WOW - that looks PDG (pretty darn good)!

Craig,

Your Johnny's clone looks delicious!

Norma

Thank you both!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: tinroofrusted on August 31, 2014, 12:03:51 PM
Great looking pizza, Craig.  Thanks for posting it. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on August 31, 2014, 12:43:55 PM
wow, looks great Craig
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on August 31, 2014, 04:31:21 PM
Craig, do you think you would have gotten better results without rolling it or do you think it's part and parcel for this particular clone?  I ask because early on in my pizza making I used to use a pastry roller to get the dough super-thin.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 31, 2014, 05:07:16 PM
You would definitely get different results. Not rolling the dough may or may not make a better pie, but in either case, it wouldn't be a Johnny's clone. It's part and parcel.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jdcigar on August 31, 2014, 05:48:11 PM
Great looking pizza!  I will have to try this one
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quixoteQ on August 31, 2014, 09:36:47 PM
Really nice looking clone--very hard to tell the two apart.  How did you decide how much preferment to use?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Tscarborough on August 31, 2014, 10:23:34 PM
I have never heard of or eaten a Johnny's pizza, but I would call that a tomato pie and eat the whole damn thing.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 31, 2014, 11:31:03 PM
Really nice looking clone--very hard to tell the two apart.  How did you decide how much preferment to use?

I went with Mmmph's ratio. It looked reasonable, and I couldn't think of any reason to do anything differently for a first attempt.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on September 01, 2014, 01:01:22 AM
Amazing Craig........
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quixoteQ on September 01, 2014, 07:29:58 AM
I went with Mmmph's ratio. It looked reasonable, and I couldn't think of any reason to do anything differently for a first attempt.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on September 01, 2014, 01:59:48 PM
The fact that you cook your Johnny's clone in your convection oven (when you have a WFO) sorta reinforces what I've been thinking about in terms of using different ovens for different pies.  I was wondering when I got my BS if I'd just use it for everything, but it seems NYs should really be done in the regular oven and NPs in the higher heat ovens. 

I know its a bit of a "duh," but just thinking out loud.  :)

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vtsteve on September 01, 2014, 02:18:12 PM
It depends on the WFO... I built a Pompeii oven that's very comfortable doing NY-style at ~700 (and the door is 20" wide :)) but it's hard to keep the temp high enough for NP.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 01, 2014, 09:33:45 PM
The fact that you cook your Johnny's clone in your convection oven (when you have a WFO) sorta reinforces what I've been thinking about in terms of using different ovens for different pies.  I was wondering when I got my BS if I'd just use it for everything, but it seems NYs should really be done in the regular oven and NPs in the higher heat ovens. 

I know its a bit of a "duh," but just thinking out loud.  :)
Jeff, never say never....you have seen Norma`s NY pizzas done on BS, right?   :chef:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on September 01, 2014, 09:50:33 PM
Jeff, never say never....you have seen Norma`s NY pizzas done on BS, right?   :chef:

I must have seen Norma's BS pies - I just don't recall them specifically - the posts become a bit of a blur after a while.  :)

And, I know what you mean about "never say never" -- It just seems many good looking NYs, ala Scott's previous debate (not every single one obviously), seem to be prepared in a conventional oven at 500-550F.  I'll still experiment with making them in my BS for fun and to see if I can get good results there.  Hey maybe I'll end up preferring it for both NY and NP.

I guess my disaster last night with the burnt bottom sorta scarred me on it but its deserves more tries than that one.  :)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 01, 2014, 10:01:04 PM
On the BS I do NY around 620 or so....I`ve had it dialed waaay back for 25 min Chicago DD and my 12min. cutter pan Chi-thins. You just need a light hand on the jet blast dial and patience...let it stabilize 10 [email protected] your target temp, tweak it during that time with the IR gun and you will see that you can get the BS to hold pretty steady at just about any temp you need/want.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on September 01, 2014, 10:01:17 PM
Craig, your clone looks....well like a clone of the real thing.  Great job!  :drool:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on September 01, 2014, 10:11:42 PM
On the BS I do NY around 620 or so....I`ve had it dialed waaay back for 25 min Chicago DD and my 12min. cutter pan Chi-thins. You just need a light hand on the jet blast dial and patience...let it stabilize 10 [email protected] your target temp, tweak it during that time with the IR gun and you will see that you can get the BS to hold pretty steady at just about any temp you need/want.

Gotcha - I just figured the benefit of it was the high heat.  Do you prefer it to your conventional oven when you are dialing it back for lower temp bakes?  Does it provide a benefit that your home oven does not?   (Other than heating up your house in the summer.  :-D)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 01, 2014, 10:21:37 PM
Craig, your clone looks....well like a clone of the real thing.  Great job!  :drool:

Thanks, Chau!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: pdog on September 03, 2014, 04:34:24 PM
Great job Craig.  Amazing pie - especially on a first attempt.  My clone attempts somehow took on a life of their own and got completely off track.  You have inspired me to get back into the experiment phase again. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CIZ28 on September 07, 2014, 02:33:45 AM
I've been to the actual place and this is the closest I've ever seen to it. This pizza is a hybrid of the original NY coal oven style and gas oven pizza, MUCH better than the usual corner slice orange blanket type. I dare say the real thing might be slightly thinner and a little less bendy than yours. There is black pepper on the pizza, either in the sauce, thrown on separate, or it's mixed in with the oregano, don't recall. The cheese was more buttery Polly-O than salty Grande tasting IIRC and I saw no shredded mozzarella used, only sliced. The oil would also not be EVOO but more like a canola or pure olive oil, or a mix of both. It went on before the pie hit the oven at around 600 degrees. I didn't see you mention parmesan, as they definitely sprinkle some on their pizzas. Fantastic job!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: pythonic on September 07, 2014, 09:53:35 AM
Amazing pie Craig!  What is RO water though?  And what rack position in your oven did you cook at?

Nate
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on September 07, 2014, 01:12:12 PM
What is RO water though?

Nate
Nate,

See http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=20056.0)

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 07, 2014, 01:33:05 PM
Thanks, Nate. It was baked in the top 1/3 of the oven on a 3/4" cordierite stone.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jever4321 on September 07, 2014, 02:06:52 PM
WOW, Looks awesome man! 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: cervicornis on September 07, 2014, 09:10:10 PM
The fact that this was your first attempt at making a clone just blows my mind.  Really!  If anyone on this forum wonders why Craig gets so much respect from the newbies and experienced alike, this thread explains why.  Very impressive.  Makes me want to fly out to Italy, then NY, and then Texas.  Anyone want to join me on an epic pizza trip?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: scott r on September 08, 2014, 01:24:18 AM
Hey craig, what a great looking clone!  I have some inside scoop for you to possibly bring it closer to Johnny's.   Forgive me if you already know some of this and I missed it, as I skimmed the thread....

Vantagio Whole milk aged mozzarella cheese.   This particular mozzarella has a touch of sharpness, and it has an incredible tolerance to heat... even better than grande.

A small amount of fresh mozzarella, usually just one piece in the center of the pizza

a sauce made by combining italian whole peeled tomatoes with a thicker california puree tomato

I LOVE johnny's!   
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: dylandylan on September 08, 2014, 05:11:05 AM
I dunno, I'm not sure that you have the exact same number of blisters on your clone Craig.  Some of the blisters are even in different spots compared with the original.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 08, 2014, 08:28:54 AM
Thanks for the info scott.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on September 09, 2014, 02:21:50 PM

 I made with Pomi tomato sauce (the Pomi sauce is tomato only. It does not have any other ingredients like most tomato sauces)


Craig i noticed you mentioned Pomi tomato (only) sauce.  I've seen a pizza sauce version - have you tried that one?  I guess it has some "spices" in it  -
I'm assuming mostly oregano.

In your opinion is it probably best to get the plain and season yourself?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 09, 2014, 02:37:49 PM
I've never tried it. I'm pretty minimalist when it comes to seasoning pizza sauce. I can't imagine ever buying pizza sauce.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on September 09, 2014, 02:41:25 PM
I've never tried it. I'm pretty minimalist when it comes to seasoning pizza sauce. I can't imagine ever buying pizza sauce.

I hear ya thanks.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 21, 2014, 10:10:36 PM
This was pretty much the same formula with an extra day in the fridge. I opened the dough by hand rather than using the rolling pin. I preferred it this way.

I cut the dough ball down from 375g to 300g (14") = 0.07 TF.


Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Simple Man on September 22, 2014, 10:06:11 AM
Craig,
I would like to attempt this using your formula and hoping you wouldn't mind answering a few questions regarding your latest attempt.

1) Did you use the same percentage water-flour (roughly 41%) of total for the preferment as the initial attempt?
2) How much IDY did you use in the preferment? I noticed you used 2.2 grains (.143 grams) in your original preferment although Mmmph mentioned he used 50% of the total IDY in his attempt.
3) You mentioned this latest attempt was basically the same formula with an extra day in the fridge. Does that mean it was a total of 60 hrs in the fridge (36hrs + 24hrs)?
4) Did you also give it 6 hrs at room temp before forming the dough.
5) Same sauce & cheese as initial attempt.

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to be as accurate as possible for my 1st attempt.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 22, 2014, 10:21:37 AM
Craig,
I would like to attempt this using your formula and hoping you wouldn't mind answering a few questions regarding your latest attempt.

1) Did you use the same percentage water-flour (roughly 41%) of total for the preferment as the initial attempt?
2) How much IDY did you use in the preferment? I noticed you used 2.2 grains (.143 grams) in your original preferment although Mmmph mentioned he used 50% of the total IDY in his attempt.
3) You mentioned this latest attempt was basically the same formula with an extra day in the fridge. Does that mean it was a total of 60 hrs in the fridge (36hrs + 24hrs)?
4) Did you also give it 6 hrs at room temp before forming the dough.
5) Same sauce & cheese as initial attempt.

Sorry for all the questions. Just trying to be as accurate as possible for my 1st attempt.

1) Yes.
2) I used 100% of the yeast in the preferment both times I tried this.
3) Yes.
4) No, only about 3 hours. It rose some in the additional 24 hours and didn't need as much time at RT. This time it was mostly to bring the dough back to RT.
5) Yes.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Simple Man on September 22, 2014, 10:28:13 AM
Thanks Craig!

Now I see I was confused converting grains-grams. I do have a small scale that is accurate to .01 grams. Not sure about grains.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 22, 2014, 10:36:22 AM
Thanks Craig!

Now I see I was confused converting grains-grams. I do have a small scale that is accurate to .01 grams. Not sure about grains.

1 grain = 1/7000 lb

My digital scale won't reliably measure tiny quantities, but my balance-beam reloading scale will accurately measure 0.1 grain = 0.0065 gram, so I use it for measuring IDY.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Johnny the Gent on September 22, 2014, 06:15:23 PM
You're batting a thousand Craig. Another home run!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 22, 2014, 06:17:03 PM
You're batting a thousand Craig. Another home run!

Thanks Brother!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on September 22, 2014, 06:18:29 PM
oooh, nice!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 22, 2014, 06:28:19 PM
That is pizza right there man.... :chef:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: parallei on September 22, 2014, 06:35:30 PM
1 grain = 1/7000 lb

My digital scale won't reliably measure tiny quantities, but my balance-beam reloading scale will accurately measure 0.1 grain = 0.0065 gram, so I use it for measuring IDY.

Handsome pie Craig.

I'm thinking 16.5 gr of Green Dot for my next 1oz, 16 gauge pizza loads.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on September 22, 2014, 06:42:56 PM
Any formula for homemade Silver Salutes..... >:D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on September 22, 2014, 06:45:53 PM
Handsome pie Craig.

I'm thinking 16.5 gr of Green Dot for my next 1oz, 16 gauge pizza loads.

I've never loaded 16. I used a lot of Red Dot in 12g because I could use it in my .45 too. For a while, I loaded some really heavy Blue Dot loads - called them my "rhino rollers."
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 15, 2014, 06:15:43 PM
Love this pizza.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on November 15, 2014, 06:57:39 PM
looks great!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 15, 2014, 07:01:43 PM
Thanks deb.  ;D  These are TF=0.070 which I really liked.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on November 15, 2014, 07:06:21 PM
Thanks deb.  ;D  These are TF=0.070 which I really liked.

I like the look of the thickness thin, I think I'll try that TF next time I do one (there will be a next time, too many styles, not enough time to eat pizza). 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on November 15, 2014, 11:05:17 PM
Absolutely stunning. Stretched or rolled?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on November 16, 2014, 12:29:04 AM
Amazing Craig....I could down the whole pie...
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2014, 09:10:19 AM
Absolutely stunning. Stretched or rolled?

These are rolled. I've stretched some too - makes a very different pie. I generally prefer it this way.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2014, 09:10:58 AM
Amazing Craig....I could down the whole pie...

Thanks Bob. Yes, they go down easy.  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on November 16, 2014, 09:26:25 AM
These are rolled. I've stretched some too - makes a very different pie. I generally prefer it this way.

I find it to be a very odd feeling to take a rolling pin to a pizza
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2014, 09:47:34 AM
I find it to be a very odd feeling to take a rolling pin to a pizza

I did the first time, but I've come to like it  >:D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 16, 2014, 09:49:36 AM
I'll let you in on another bit of my secret shame. Tom left a Superpeel here after the TPS1, and I've been using it to launch these pies lately.  :-[ Not that they are hard to launch off a wood peel, but the super peel is really easy.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: shuboyje on November 16, 2014, 10:30:32 AM
Soon as generation 2 of my coal oven is ready this is the first thing going in it. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Mmmph on November 16, 2014, 12:44:47 PM
Love this pizza.

I hear that! Your looks great.
I'll be baking three today.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Essen1 on November 16, 2014, 06:10:25 PM
Craig,

you knocked one totally out of the park! Great looking pies.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: JD on November 17, 2014, 09:09:03 AM
You need to make an 18" version of this Craig  >:D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 17, 2014, 09:28:11 AM
You need to make an 18" version of this Craig  >:D

I wish I has some way to bake one. My oven max is about 14.5", and the door on the WFO is a bit less than 17".   :'(

One of these days I'll get an 18" peel and cut it down to fit the WFO.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on November 17, 2014, 05:02:03 PM
I wish I has some way to bake one. My oven max is about 14.5"

It sounds like you need to get a bigger oven.  It's not NY unless it's at least 18". :)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 17, 2014, 05:12:27 PM
It sounds like you need to get a bigger oven.  It's not NY unless it's at least 18". :)

I'll let you explain it to my wife.  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: shuboyje on November 17, 2014, 07:39:01 PM
Start convincing now.  By the time you are done I'll have the coal oven design all dialed in and then you can out one in right next to the Acunto.  What's a wood oven without a coal oven friend?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 17, 2014, 09:19:05 PM
You don't have to convince me. I have room for a coal oven and a deck oven in the Garage.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Reek on December 17, 2014, 02:05:00 PM
This is my first pass at a Johnny’s clone. Having never tasted the real thing makes cloning somewhat nebulous, notwithstanding, I’m very pleased how it came out. Thanks to Mmmph and pdog for getting this ball rolling. It’s something I’ve been thinking about doing for a long time and have kept putting off. Thanks also to scott123 for some valuable insight provided offline.

The formula is basically Mmmph’s with a bit more salt and oil: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33684.0 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=33684.0)

Total Formula
100% KABF
60% RO water
2.5% salt
2% oil
0.057% IDY

I only made one ball – I was mostly curious about how it would handle. I mixed and kneaded it by hand.

Preferment:
100g flour
100g water
2.2 grains IDY (1 grain = 1/7000lb – measured with a reloading scale)

The preferment was left covered at RT (75F) for 12 hours.

Added to the preferment:
148g flour
49g water
6g salt
5g vegetable oil

Total formula:
248g flour
149g water  (60%)
6g salt (2.4%)
5g oil (2.0%)
0.143g IDY (.0576%)

This yielded about 400g dough after bowl residue.  I cut it down to 375g. I thought I would make a 15” pie with TF = 0.075. I didn’t measure my stone first, and it’s only 14.5”, so the pie actually came in at TF=0.080. Next time, I will probably try 350g for a true TF=0.075. I wouldn’t be surprised if I end up at 330g (TF=0.70).

I gave the final dough a two hour rest in the fridge (it was only going to be 20 minutes, but I fell asleep) and then one set of stretch and folds. It looked very nice, so I balled it and put it in the fridge (because I misread Mmmph’s post where he said he put it in his wine cooler at 64F). I left it in the fridge for 36 hours. This morning, I took it out and left it on the counter (75F) for about 6 hours and it was perfect. Another 6 hours in the fridge would not have hurt anything, so this is probably how I will do it in the future for an evening bake.

I rolled the dough out to 15”. The dough handled beautifully. It didn’t resist at all. I picked it up and stretched it out to about 16” by hand and then laid it out on my peel (15”) and helped it shrink back to 15”.

I topped it with very thinly sliced Boar’s Head WM aged mozz, I didn’t use any shreds (didn’t have any). I will use a bit more cheese next time. I didn’t use any white cheddar. I might try a tiny amount in the future. The mozz we have here just doesn’t have much flavor. 

After the cheese, I spooned on an even coat (across the entire surface of cheese) of a very thin sauce I made with Pomi tomato sauce (the Pomi sauce is tomato only. It does not have any other ingredients like most tomato sauces), a small pinch of oregano, salt to taste, and evoo. I didn’t measure anything. I will use a bit less evoo next time – just enough to get it to the point where if you added any more it would separate noticeably. I can get away with using a lot more evoo in the sauce I use for “NP” cheese pies in the WFO. This sauce requires a bit more finesse. The flavor of the sauce was really good. I’d use the Pomi sauce for this again. After the sauce, I put down some freshly cracked black pepper and a light sprinkling of grated pecorino romano.

I baked the pie at 550F w/convection on a 1/2” cordierite stone that was preheated for over an hour. I didn’t time the bake, but it was probably in the ballpark of 7 minutes. The pie was not quite as browned/charred on the bottom as I would have like, but it wasn’t disappointing light either.

Overall, the pie was really good. There was lots of flavor in the crust (for baker’s yeast); it was nicely crispy but not tough. I will be making more of these.

Below: a Johnny’s pie (from the internet - http://www.travelandeats.com/johnnys-pizzeria-best-ny-pizza (http://www.travelandeats.com/johnnys-pizzeria-best-ny-pizza)) on the left and mine on the right:

book mark  :pizza:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 25, 2014, 08:34:03 PM
The fine tuning continues. Pre-fermenting 40% of the flour seems to work the best for me. I did 60% last time, and these are 50%. I thought 40% tasted better than either. I have no theory on why that might be.

I put a tiny bit of shredded white cheddar on one of these to try to give some flavor to the crappy mozz we have here, but I didn't like it. The tomatoes on these are pureed Cento Italian whole peeled. I like it more than the Pomi sauce I had been using.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 25, 2014, 08:36:28 PM
The cheese is sliced 0.080" +/- 0.005"
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on December 25, 2014, 09:57:30 PM
Gorgeous Craig! I too have puréed Cento peeled and really liked them. A little oregano and salt? Any sugar?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 25, 2014, 10:19:21 PM
Oregano, salt, and lots of EVOO. No sugar.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on December 25, 2014, 10:32:17 PM
Oregano, salt, and lots of EVOO. No sugar.

Do you think some MWAE EVOO with oregano and garlic would overpower the great tomato flavor of the puréed Cento??
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 25, 2014, 10:37:00 PM
MWAE?

I don't think I'd like garlic in it.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on December 25, 2014, 10:41:02 PM
The Micro Wave Assited Extraction thing.......

Thanks!   Maybe I'll stick with a little fresh garlic on the pie......
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 25, 2014, 10:48:56 PM
I did put a couple basil leaves in a couple Tbs of sauce and nuke it for a few seconds then add back to the sauce.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on December 25, 2014, 11:03:01 PM
Perfect!!  Merry Christmas to you and the family!!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CIZ28 on December 27, 2014, 01:38:29 AM
These look to be about the exact TF of the real thing, still .07?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on December 27, 2014, 07:06:35 AM
Nice!  I'm really loving this style.  Same question as above .07? 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on December 27, 2014, 08:52:39 AM
These are just a bit less at 0.066

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CIZ28 on December 29, 2014, 08:23:41 AM
That .065-.07 area seems right for their pizza. Any lower and you'll be in Harlem Patsy's paper thin range. Which is just too thin to me.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DenaliPete on January 02, 2015, 10:27:17 AM
Craig, when you're discussing the sauce in the original post you mentioned using only a pinch of oregano.  Are you still using pretty small amounts of Oregano?  I'm just looking to make a pretty accurate sauce to what you're producing.

Pete
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 02, 2015, 11:33:36 AM
Craig, when you're discussing the sauce in the original post you mentioned using only a pinch of oregano.  Are you still using pretty small amounts of Oregano?  I'm just looking to make a pretty accurate sauce to what you're producing.

Pete

Yes, it's not a lot. I've never measured. Best guess, somewhere between 1/4tsp and 1/2tsp for 500g of tomato. I'd start at the low end and work up to taste.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 28, 2015, 02:29:23 AM
If anyone was wondering what would happen if you put my Johnny's dough in a 850F WFO, here you go. KABF, 60% HR.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on January 28, 2015, 09:14:29 AM
Does that now make it a "Gianni"?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on January 28, 2015, 09:30:35 AM
Clever.  :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Omidz on February 26, 2015, 01:38:26 AM
Craig how did slices in the wfo version hold up compared to your Neapolitan?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 26, 2015, 08:07:34 AM
I use sliced dry WM in the WFO all the time. They work great in the high heat/short bake time.

In these pics, both pepperoni pies were made with thin slices as was the pie with shrimp. The cheese pie has both fresh and sliced.

http://lindbergs.us/
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Polo1523 on February 26, 2015, 10:55:59 AM
Greatest Pizzas I've ever seen, congrats Craig.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 26, 2015, 01:01:48 PM
Wow. Thank you.  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: ssg263 on February 26, 2015, 09:43:03 PM
that's a hell of a clone, Craig.  Outstanding job.  I've never been to Johnny's but from the pictures your looks even better than the real one.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on February 27, 2015, 12:32:48 AM
 ^^^. Craig you are a pizza master.  :chef: 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Tscarborough on February 27, 2015, 09:27:43 AM
Those do look good.  You have converted me to the slices, Craig, it really does work well (HEB #1 thin) in both the kitchen and the WFO.  I still grate some cheese to fill the spaces where the slices don't cover, though.  I usually use provolone or something other than mozzarella for that.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on February 27, 2015, 09:40:16 AM
Glad you like it. The slices work really well with some fresh mozz too.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Omidz on March 02, 2015, 12:24:21 AM
I use sliced dry WM in the WFO all the time. They work great in the high heat/short bake time.

In these pics, both pepperoni pies were made with thin slices as was the pie with shrimp. The cheese pie has both fresh and sliced.

http://lindbergs.us/

Those look great as always Craig. But I think I should have been more descriptive.  I was actually referring to the pizza slices themselves holding up in your WFO pic vs. Your Johnny conf in the home oven. I'm kinda glad it was misread though cause I got to see your link and learn about cheese slices.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 02, 2015, 09:11:02 AM
Those look great as always Craig. But I think I should have been more descriptive.  I was actually referring to the pizza slices themselves holding up in your WFO pic vs. Your Johnny conf in the home oven. I'm kinda glad it was misread though cause I got to see your link and learn about cheese slices.

Now I'm confused what you were asking about?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Omidz on March 02, 2015, 06:07:44 PM
Now I'm confused what you were asking about?

Sorry for the confusion. What I am asking is this. I saw your Johnny's clone in the home Oven along with your pic of a slice that held up nicely.  As I saw this and was reading the rest of your post I thought to my self " I wonder how this would come out in Craig's Acunto" Then bam I saw your posting of exactly that. But you didn't have a pic of an individual slice of your Johnny's clone in your Acunto. So it made me wonder how the individual slices held up when on the one you baked in your Acunto . Wow now I'm confusing myslef :)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 02, 2015, 08:50:06 PM
Sorry for the confusion. What I am asking is this. I saw your Johnny's clone in the home Oven along with your pic of a slice that held up nicely.  As I saw this and was reading the rest of your post I thought to my self " I wonder how this would come out in Craig's Acunto" Then bam I saw your posting of exactly that. But you didn't have a pic of an individual slice of your Johnny's clone in your Acunto. So it made me wonder how the individual slices held up when on the one you baked in your Acunto . Wow now I'm confusing myslef :)

Now I understand what you meant by "hold up." The answer is: about the same. Note that the Acunto was nowhere near Neapolitan temps. Also, I didn't open the dough the way I would for the clone (hand stretched in the Acunto example and gently rolled out in the clone.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 10, 2015, 11:02:34 PM
I had planned to make Johnny's clones for lunch at the TPS4, but everyone slept in I guess. I made this one for lunch yesterday. 10 hour preferment of 40% of the flour, 1 day bulk in the fridge, 1.5 days in balls in the fridge. I mixed Calabrian chili oil into the sauce. Quite tasty it was.

17", 450g dough. Baked on the MOABS: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39045.0
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Essen1 on August 10, 2015, 11:12:07 PM
That's perfection right there! Wow!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: nuevoyork on August 10, 2015, 11:43:36 PM
That's perfection right there! Wow!

Yup.  It's too bad 'steel sucks.'  ;)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: CaptBob on August 10, 2015, 11:44:11 PM
That's perfection right there! Wow!

 ^^^
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on August 11, 2015, 12:23:19 AM
I shouldn't have slept in!  :chef:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Essen1 on August 11, 2015, 12:50:00 AM
Yup.  It's too bad 'steel sucks.'  ;)

Still don't like it. Doesn't work for my crusts and I said that many times.

But like I said before, NY, if it works for others, that's great.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: invertedisdead on August 12, 2015, 01:22:00 PM
One thing I am still a bit confused about - what the difference between a preferment versus just bulk fermenting the whole dough at RT?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2015, 02:40:07 PM
One thing I am still a bit confused about - what the difference between a preferment versus just bulk fermenting the whole dough at RT?
Ryan,

Preferments are creations of the bread world. And one of the benefits of preferments, in addition to contributing to the aroma, taste, flavor and texture of the finished product, is to shorten the production time. But this presumes that a preferment is available at the time of preparation of the dough that is to become the final product, whether it is a bread dough or a pizza dough, or something else. Many bakers have a special part of their facility or shop where they make and store preferments so that they are available to the baker when he or she comes into the store in the morning to make the dough for their breads. If you have access to Prof. Raymond Calvel's book The Taste of Bread, there is a great chart on page 46 that shows how preferments can shorten the total production time. As an example, a conventional straight bread dough might take 6 hours to make from beginning to end (with the "end" being the baked bread). But when a poolish preferment is at the ready and available to be used to make the final dough, the total production time from beginning to end can be 4 3/4 hours.

Maybe one can concoct a scenario where a bulk ferment of a dough at room temperature will yield a product that has all of the benefits of a preferment but I have never seen or read about such a scenario. As you can see from the article by Didier Rosada at http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20040814193817/cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food3_apr2004.htm), a poolish for example can be made in as little as three hours or up to 12-15 hours. It is even possible to make an overnight poolish. Also, in a companion article by Rosada at http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm (http://web.archive.org/web/20050829015510/www.cafemeetingplace.com/archives/food4_dec2004.htm), he reminds us under the section Advantages that a Dough at the preferment stage is not used to make the final product. It is used to make the final dough that is used to make breads. So, while use of a preferment is compatible with a companion room temperature fermentation, they are in separate steps or stages, not simultaneous.

I think if you read the two Rosada articles, you will have a much better understanding about the role and benefits of preferments, just as I discovered when I first read those articles.

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: invertedisdead on August 12, 2015, 04:12:08 PM
Peter,

Thanks for the links. I have read up on both of these, but those articles filled in some blanks; while also creating new ones. I am mostly interested in the flavor differences. I found this bit of information especially useful.

"More liquid preferments like poolish, because of their liquid consistency, favor enzyme activity. Amylase, but also protease, will be more active during the pre-fermentation. The same protease effect also happens in preferments such as sponge that do not have salt and ferment for a long time at room temperature. Room temperature (versus cooler temperature) favors enzyme activity. The absence of salt in the preparation encourages a higher rate of protease activity since protease is very salt sensitive. Cold doughs with salt do not generate the same level of enzyme activity."

On this forum, most NY'ers are using refrigeration, but with Neapolitan many are doing room temp. According to Mr. Rosada, the cold rise doughs with salt would be lacking on certain protease. Is it the salt and its effect on protease that makes all the difference? Isn't a fully mixed dough @ 60%HR just a big biga, only the inclusion of salt makes it a "finished" dough? The more you up hydration the closer you get to poolish. Am I way off in thinking high hydration no knead methods, like Lahey's, the whole dough is a room temp poolish. It's the addition of salt that makes it not eligible to be called a poolish, the same as adding anything beyond flour and water isn't a true autolyse.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on August 12, 2015, 06:36:43 PM
Ryan,

Although Craig uses a poolish, I would not like to steer this thread off in a more general direction about preferments. However, if you would like to start a new thread on the subject, I'd be happy to participate to the extent that I would have an input of value.

The above said, I think it is important to keep in mind that a preferment, whatever its form, is a precursor to a final dough, just as Craig used it. I agree that it might be possible to come up with a dough that resembles a biga from a hydration standpoint and could be subjected to fermentation, but what you would end up would unlikely be equivalent to a dough that included a biga preferment to begin with. Likewise, it is possible to come up with a dough that resembles a poolish. One such example can be seen at https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza (https://sites.google.com/site/hollosyt/quickrusticciabattapizza). The recipe at that site has a hydration of over 90%, which is just a bit less than the 100% hydration of a poolish. But, as you can see, it takes a lot of kneading to develop the gluten and the dough is so extensible that the skin has to be formed on parchment paper. The Lahey dough you mentioned has a hydration value that is much less than a poolish. I calculated a value of better than 80%. As a sidenote, I might mention that I read in Prof. Calvel's book that the poolish started to fall out of favor in France around 1920 in favor of the direct dough method. When I looked for recipes in the book using a poolish, I found only two recipes, for basic French breads. There were quite a few for sponges and prefermented dough, but not many for poolish. I did not see anything identified as a biga. All of the preferments in the recipes in the book did not contain salt except for the prefermented doughs. But even prefermented doughs were precursors to a final dough.

Finally, I would add that I have not seen many examples where the protease enzymes were inhibited in a normal dough by the presence of salt from attacking and degrading the gluten structure if given enough time. Remember, also, that there are also acids and alcohol fermentation byproducts that can also degrade the gluten structure.

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 12, 2015, 08:17:23 PM
I don't mind the discussion here, but others would probably benefit down the road if it had its own thread.

I'd simply add that I'm a believer in using a poolish with baker's yeast when doing CF. I think it's a great combo.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: crawsdaddy on August 13, 2015, 10:25:12 AM
I shouldn't have slept in!  :chef:

I am kicking myself for scheduling a lunch with an old friend. I could have eaten that whole pie myself Craig. It looks wonderful.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on August 16, 2015, 07:47:49 AM
I had planned to make Johnny's clones for lunch at the TPS4, but everyone slept in I guess. I made this one for lunch yesterday. 10 hour preferment of 40% of the flour, 1 day bulk in the fridge, 1.5 days in balls in the fridge. I mixed Calabrian chili oil into the sauce. Quite tasty it was.

17", 450g dough. Baked on the MOABS: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=39045.0

Craig, where do you let your 10 hour pre-ferment sit? Is it in the cooler at around 72° or is it in the fridge? Or?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on August 16, 2015, 01:18:18 PM
Craig, where do you let your 10 hour pre-ferment sit? Is it in the cooler at around 72° or is it in the fridge? Or?

Generally on the counter at whatever temperature it happens to be.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: taleksun on March 30, 2016, 07:59:44 PM
100% KABP

Hi Craig, what is KABP ?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 01:20:26 AM
Yes. Typo. Should be KABF - King Arthur Bread Flour though GM Bread flour would work fine as well. So would KAAP or GMAP for that matter.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: taleksun on March 31, 2016, 04:39:11 AM
Yes. Typo. Should be KABF - King Arthur Bread Flour though GM Bread flour would work fine as well. So would KAAP or GMAP for that matter.

And I was thinking 50% KABF and 50% KAAP  = KABP :-\
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 08:49:15 AM
And I was thinking 50% KABF and 50% KAAP  = KABP :-\

Thats funny - and it would work just fine  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 31, 2016, 09:14:05 AM
Just stumbled on this thread..and I really like it. Craig, a question on the sliced mozz...You're doing this at home, correct? How do you get hose precise thicknesses? is there any way to have the guys at the deli do this...even if not quite so specifically? Ask for paper-thin, or maybe not that thin, or????

Thanks
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 09:49:59 AM
I had them slice it at the deli. I just showed them how thick to slice it with my fingers and asked to see a slice before they cut the rest.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 31, 2016, 09:57:31 AM
Thanks Craig...That's what I've been doing, just wanted to be sure my "technique" was right  :-D  I try to have them put paper between the slices or at least shingle them because otherwise at bake time, I've had sticking-together issues. Cheese is an ongoing development area for me  :) 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 11:08:30 AM
I hate buying LM mozz in the grocery store deli. It's $7/lb, and in a 5# block at the cash and carry, it's $2/lb. I love the way even slices bake on the pie though.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: JD on March 31, 2016, 11:15:31 AM
I hate buying LM mozz in the grocery store deli. It's $7/lb, and in a 5# block at the cash and carry, it's $2/lb. I love the way even slices bake on the pie though.

You don't own a deli slicer?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 11:54:11 AM
You don't own a deli slicer?

Unfortunately no. I had a chance to buy a like-new full size industrial Hobart slicer for a couple $100 some years ago but had no place to put it. Big regret.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 31, 2016, 12:05:50 PM
a Mandolin slicer works pretty well.  Just vacuum seal the rest of the cheese in usable portions and keep in the freezer. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rparker on March 31, 2016, 12:39:04 PM
a Mandolin slicer works pretty well.  Just vacuum seal the rest of the cheese in usable portions and keep in the freezer.
Even for really paper-thin cheese slicing?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 31, 2016, 01:02:57 PM
Yes. You can get it quite thin.  Just have to put the cheese in the freezer for 5 min or so.  You don't want it frozen but COLD.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rparker on March 31, 2016, 01:05:27 PM
Yes. You can get it quite thin.  Just have to put the cheese in the freezer for 5 min or so.  You don't want t frozen but COLD.
Awesome! Thanks for the tip.    8) 8)

I, too, am quite sick of the g-store prices to get thin slices.

Roy
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 31, 2016, 01:14:40 PM
Found a picture.  You could probably get it thinner than this.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 31, 2016, 01:18:33 PM
That looks about perfect.

What sort of mandolin are you using?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on March 31, 2016, 01:26:10 PM
I'll take a pic of it later.  Don't remember the brand but it was around $30.  I imagine any of them will do.  Just make sure you can adjust the thickness. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: taleksun on April 01, 2016, 09:56:08 AM
Hi Craig, we have been using a Krupp's home slicer for 40 years, no longer available, you may want to consider this.

Chef's Choice 615 Premium Electric Food Slicer
http://www.amazon.com/Chefs-Choice-Premium-Electric-Slicer/dp/B0058VCYWS/?tag=pmak-20
Its does a great job.

Tom
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: bregent on April 02, 2016, 02:29:10 PM
a Mandolin slicer works pretty well.  Just vacuum seal the rest of the cheese in usable portions and keep in the freezer.

What do folks here think about freezing WMM? I don't do it because I heard that it can cause the cheese the oil off more, but don't have any first hand experience with that. I buy 5lb bricks and divide and vac seal in 1lb portions and store in the fridge. I would much prefer to keep the portions in our upright freezer to free up fridge space if it doesn't adversely affect quality.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 02, 2016, 02:49:40 PM
I freeze WMM all the time without any negative effects.  Just let it thaw in the fridge the day before you need it.  Here's a pic of my Chef'n mandolin slicer.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: JD on April 02, 2016, 05:27:11 PM
Here's a pic of my Chef'n mandolin slicer.

Will it slice stick pepperoni?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 02, 2016, 05:35:41 PM
Will it slice stick pepperoni?

Thanks for the picture Chau. I'm curious about this too as I hate slicing pepperoni by hand.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 02, 2016, 05:47:01 PM
No go on the stick pepperoni.  It's too dense or tough.  I enjoy the challenge of slicing thin even pieces of pepperoni with a sharp knife.  Love using the mandolin for thin slices of jalepenos (esp if they're hot) and razor thin shavings of fresh mushroom. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: shuboyje on April 03, 2016, 10:30:11 AM
https://jet.com/product/detail/2517c48cb8504624a0cd33541a09fb61?jcmp=pla:ggl:win_home_garden_a2:kitchen_dining_kitchen_appliances_a2_other:na:na:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&ds_c=win_home_garden_a2&ds_cid&ds_ag=kitchen_dining_kitchen_appliances_a2_other&product_id=2517c48cb8504624a0cd33541a09fb61&product_partition_id=156777061740&gclid=CKP-sdbW8ssCFQsPaQodRDoGww

I had one of these given to me a few years ago.  Killer for home quantities of pizza toppings.  I use it for my cheese and pepperoni all the time plus my home cured meats.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: JD on April 03, 2016, 10:42:55 AM
https://jet.com/product/detail/2517c48cb8504624a0cd33541a09fb61?jcmp=pla:ggl:win_home_garden_a2:kitchen_dining_kitchen_appliances_a2_other:na:na:na:na:na:2&code=PLA15&ds_c=win_home_garden_a2&ds_cid&ds_ag=kitchen_dining_kitchen_appliances_a2_other&product_id=2517c48cb8504624a0cd33541a09fb61&product_partition_id=156777061740&gclid=CKP-sdbW8ssCFQsPaQodRDoGww

I had one of these given to me a few years ago.  Killer for home quantities of pizza toppings.  I use it for my cheese and pepperoni all the time plus my home cured meats.

I have what looks to be the same one in my Amazon wishlist: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00UDN75QQ/?tag=pmak-20

I've been a little reluctant to buy it because of the price, but this is a good endorsement!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jackie Tran on April 03, 2016, 11:30:45 AM
That's one heck of a price consider these other basic hand operated mandolins are half that price.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: shuboyje on April 03, 2016, 11:40:44 AM
Yeah I had seen them in the stores and always considered them toys in my mind.  It's performance was a pleasant surprise.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hotsawce on April 05, 2019, 12:23:31 AM
Found a great video on the entire pizzamaking process at Johnny's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nkKBb2AayM

The barstool review is also pretty great - gives you a great idea of the texture. Around 15:50 you can see the crust crack pretty well. i wonder if there is any oil in this dough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P1THO7sDVY

I'm trying to figure out the temp they bake at and how long. It's difficult to tell if they are baking a little hotter and quicker than most NY pies (the color and char looks to be there...) or cooler and longer.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 05, 2019, 06:18:55 AM
Found a great video on the entire pizzamaking process at Johnny's.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9nkKBb2AayM

The barstool review is also pretty great - gives you a great idea of the texture. Around 15:50 you can see the crust crack pretty well. i wonder if there is any oil in this dough?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1P1THO7sDVY

I'm trying to figure out the temp they bake at and how long. It's difficult to tell if they are baking a little hotter and quicker than most NY pies (the color and char looks to be there...) or cooler and longer.

I posted the first video earlier this week.  If you look at the clock on the wall, it's close to a 9 minute bake.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rtt121 on April 05, 2019, 08:52:25 AM
I timed my Johnny's bake at 7 min 25 seconds.

Edit: A plain cheese pie actually at Johnnys
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 05, 2019, 11:01:22 AM
I wonder if they meant to show him putting the sauce on twice?

What do you think the sauce is? It looks thin like uncooked, pureed really wet whole peeled tomatoes, but how did the occasional large pieces of basil survive the puree? Or maybe it's pureed whole peeled tomatoes that are very lightly cooked with some pieces of basil?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on April 05, 2019, 11:36:51 AM
I wonder if they meant to show him putting the sauce on twice?

What do you think the sauce is? It looks thin like uncooked, pureed really wet whole peeled tomatoes, but how did the occasional large pieces of basil survive the puree? Or maybe it's pureed whole peeled tomatoes that are very lightly cooked with some pieces of basil?

The basil is dark so the sauce is either cooked after it’s pureed or it’s an “uncooked” puréed tomato product with basil.

Noteworthy to me also is that the dough is rolled first, sits a minute or so and then is finished with a light hand stretch.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hotsawce on April 05, 2019, 11:41:17 AM
What’s the start and end mark (time stamp.)

They have a few pies going in and out I want to see if they are in the same position.

The 7 minute bake sounds about right... I’ve gotten some good pies baked in that range with a younger dough. 575 oven temp. A non-brick lined bakers pride you can’t really push to 600 unless you’re slammed. I did also find a picture of their ovens (full of pizza) and the vents in the chamber were about 80% closed-which means most of the heat is hitting the bottom of the pizza.

My guess is Alta Cucina tomatoes (entire can contents.) no crushed tomato looks like that. Tomato magic is much, much thicker. The altas, however, if you purée the whole can look like that.

I posted the first video earlier this week.  If you look at the clock on the wall, it's close to a 9 minute bake.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 05, 2019, 11:48:24 AM
Noteworthy to me also is that the dough is rolled first, sits a minute or so and then is finished with a light hand stretch.

That what I did to get the look right that you see in the opening post.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 05, 2019, 11:49:23 AM
My guess is Alta Cucina tomatoes (entire can contents.) no crushed tomato looks like that. Tomato magic is much, much thicker. The altas, however, if you purée the whole can look like that.

My thought exactly. That what they look like pureed. I wonder if the pull out the basil, puree, then put the basil back?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on April 05, 2019, 11:56:02 AM
My thought exactly. That what they look like pureed. I wonder if the pull out the basil, puree, then put the basil back?

I use the ACs quite often and they do look like that, but I didn’t see any seeds so they might be milled and then cooked slightly with some basil added.  I doubt they pull it and then add it but it’s possible.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rtt121 on April 05, 2019, 11:56:03 AM
I could have sworn I had a picture but I can't find it. I'm almost positive there was cans of tomato magic in the window where the dough trays are sitting in that video.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hotsawce on April 05, 2019, 12:00:15 PM
I've seen guys miss entire tomatoes with an immersion blender so it wouldn't surprise me to see some pieces of basil surviving....

I can tell you guys it's definitely not tomato magic. That stuff is so thick and chunky you can't spread it with a ladle - I've tried.



My thought exactly. That what they look like pureed. I wonder if the pull out the basil, puree, then put the basil back?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 05, 2019, 12:41:40 PM
I've seen guys miss entire tomatoes with an immersion blender so it wouldn't surprise me to see some pieces of basil surviving....

I can tell you guys it's definitely not tomato magic. That stuff is so thick and chunky you can't spread it with a ladle - I've tried.

Wouldn't you see little pieces of basil if left in when pureeing?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hotsawce on April 05, 2019, 06:19:07 PM
You would think you’d get all of the basil but it depends on the operator - I’ve seen it survive.

But after getting involved in this thread I took a drive there today and actually was not blown away. It’s like a thicker joe and pats pie but not as good (IMO.) Is say TF is like 0.07 or 0.068 but it’s defjnitely not as thin as joe and pats and not as thick as a NY style. I think the oven temp is no more than 550 - the bottom was not cooked all that hard.

For me, I’m not so sure I like the cheese under the sauce. There was definitely a layer of cheese between crust and sauce that was almost rubbery. The sauce never really cooked into the cheese, some of it just kind of sat on top. More than anything, I got a lot of flavor from the black pepper. Interesting. Tomatoes were thin and not messed with much. Some tang from a hard cheese. And some of the sliced
Cheese that had no sauce taking on almost a grilled cheese crispy texture and flavor on the edge of the crust.

The crust texture was definitely crisp, but maybe slightly dense? There was something about the toothsome bite I wasn’t a huge fan of. I can’t say I’ll make the trip again but it was an interesting pie and good experience.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rtt121 on April 05, 2019, 06:31:46 PM
Thanks for the write up. Interesting I enjoyed Johnny's much more than Joe and pats.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2019, 09:20:22 PM
Attempt at Craig's Johnny Clone.  All the taste testers loved it and so did I.  :drool: Hand stretched the dough.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2019, 09:23:26 PM
Nice crispy bottom crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: PizzaJerk on April 16, 2019, 09:34:44 PM
Nice pie Norma! I got that same bottle of wine the other week  :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: thezaman on April 16, 2019, 09:35:25 PM
That looks delicious. What temperature do you bake at? want to try it using the breville
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hammettjr on April 16, 2019, 09:47:02 PM
That looks delicious.


 ^^^  what are the herbs I see on the slice?

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2019, 09:53:56 PM
Nice pie Norma! I got that same bottle of wine the other week  :-D

Thanks Anthony!  Lol about getting that same bottle of wine the other week.  I thought it was cool!  Someone gave it to me for a present today.

That looks delicious. What temperature do you bake at? want to try it using the breville

Larry,

Baked a little over 550 degrees F in the Baker's Pride.  Use the same dough that is used at market just to experiment, but that sliced cheese down first is really good.

^^^  what are the herbs I see on the slice?

Matt,

It is the herbs & garlic blend.  Figured it goes well on pan pizzas so why not try it on Craig's Johnny's Clove.

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/regal-herbs-garlic-blend-8-oz/10207335.html

Norma

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: foreplease on April 16, 2019, 10:39:30 PM
Attempt at Craig's Johnny Clone.  All the taste testers loved it and so did I.  :drool: Hand stretched the dough.

Norma
I don’t have any tattoos but if I ever get one it’s gonna say “Norma.”
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 16, 2019, 10:45:02 PM
I don’t have any tattoos but if I ever get one it’s gonna say “Norma.”

Tony.

Lol  :-D  I have a tatto and it is a pizza lady. 

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on April 16, 2019, 11:15:37 PM
Nice crispy bottom crust.

Norma

Now THAT’s how it’s done!!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 17, 2019, 06:42:14 AM
Looks great.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2019, 06:59:44 AM
Now THAT’s how it’s done!!

Jonas,

That is the way I like pizza too.

Looks great.

Thanks Craig!  Want to try another attempt.  Reminds me of something like bar pies, but different.  What are your thoughts about it being something like bar pies?  Have to watch the video again and add oil, and do things better.  Didn't do that and make some more mistakes.  Just had a smaller left over dough ball and decide to try at the end of market.  Got some of the cheese sliced thin at our local Country Store.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on April 17, 2019, 07:06:28 AM
Nice Norma!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2019, 08:15:41 AM
Nice Norma!

Thanks Deb!  Sure want to try another attempt.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 17, 2019, 09:22:52 AM
Thanks Craig!  Want to try another attempt.  Reminds me of something like bar pies, but different.  What are your thoughts about it being something like bar pies?  Have to watch the video again and add oil, and do things better.  Didn't do that and make some more mistakes.  Just had a smaller left over dough ball and decide to try at the end of market.  Got some of the cheese sliced thin at our local Country Store.

Norma

I hadn't thought about it that way, but some similarities for sure. The main difference is that I think bar-style has to have the cheese crust on the edge which requires a pan be used initially.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 17, 2019, 01:45:06 PM
I hadn't thought about it that way, but some similarities for sure. The main difference is that I think bar-style has to have the cheese crust on the edge which requires a pan be used initially.

Thanks for your thoughts Craig!  Thought it was easier to achieve some similar results without using a pan.  Much quicker, but you are right no cheese crust from not having the cheese to the edges.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: scott r on April 17, 2019, 06:06:36 PM
I have been here twice in the past few weeks.  On my trip a few weeks ago it was my favorite (along with Razza) out of 8 pizzerias I hit.   It DESTROYED johns in the village which I usually love, and I even much preferred it to Joes.  Unfortunately when I just hit it again this past friday the crust was no where near as good as it had been a few weeks ago and I saw boxes of frozen restaurant depot dough balls in the kitchen!   I think their mixer may have been down.

For me the most magical thing is the sauce.  It is for sure Italian tomatoes... I saw the cans.  The brand has changed from years ago, but its still Italian whole peeled tomatoes.... not San Marzanos.  I don't think they thicken the tomatoes, as it goes on really watery.

To me the dough seems to be a classic New York style.   The deviation in the crust from the NY style is that it is started with a rolling pin, and therefore thinner than a typical NY style slice throughout with no taper.    Its a very even ultra thin pizza.  I timed the bake at 5:45
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 20, 2019, 06:26:18 PM
Attempt at Craig's Johnny Clone.  All the taste testers loved it and so did I.  :drool: Hand stretched the dough.

Norma
New style that i'm gonna stick with.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2019, 09:09:44 PM
Thanks Craig for posting about Johnny's pizza here on the forum.  My new favorite style of pizza.  ;D Have other photos from my cell, but Luis took these photos on his cell.  A lot better photos than my cell can take. 

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 23, 2019, 09:16:34 PM
Luis loves this style of pizza too.  Stays so nice and crisp long after the bake.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 23, 2019, 10:16:48 PM
Thanks Craig for posting about Johnny's pizza here on the forum.  My new favorite style of pizza.  ;D Have other photos from my cell, but Luis took these photos on his cell.  A lot better photos than my cell can take. 

Norma

Wow. I'm Honored!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 24, 2019, 07:01:59 AM
We were at Johnny's on last years Chau tour  ( a fast year !) .I thought it was really gpod, but I want  Craig's and Norma's versions way more! 


Glad I read through this thread because I want sliced cheese again..I'd been getting it from the grocery deli counter but now that I use Grande I want to slice my own. Will try Chau's mandolin idea..Did we ever learn the brand? Or any brands you guys are happy with?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on April 24, 2019, 08:10:19 AM
We were at Johnny's on last years Chau tour  ( a fast year !) .I thought it was really gpod, but I want  Craig's and Norma's versions way more! 

Or any brands you guys are happy with?

Bill, 

Know this probably isn't the cheese Johnny's uses, but it worked well.  Had it sliced at a local Country Store. How the pie was dressed.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 24, 2019, 08:43:45 AM
Bill, 

Know this probably isn't the cheese Johnny's uses, but it worked well.  Had it sliced at a local Country Store. How the pie was dressed.

Norma


Gubment pie.   :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 24, 2019, 09:07:43 AM
Sounds good, thanks Norma!


So I managed to be confusing asking my question :-[   I'm looking for brand references on a mandoline for slicing cheese
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 24, 2019, 10:06:05 PM
I'd like to see an overhead shot.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Essen1 on April 25, 2019, 01:34:07 AM
Sounds good, thanks Norma!


So I managed to be confusing asking my question :-[   I'm looking for brand references on a mandoline for slicing cheese

Bill,

I don’t think there’s such a thing.

You’d need a slicer. Mandolins do a really poor job of slicing cheese. Don’t waste your money.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: caymus on April 25, 2019, 04:08:17 AM
Sounds good, thanks Norma!


So I managed to be confusing asking my question :-[   I'm looking for brand references on a mandoline for slicing cheese

While it is not a mandolin, I find this to work well for small quantities of cheese.


https://www.amazon.com/Norpro-Heavy-Adjustable-Cheese-Slicer/dp/B000HMB0IM/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=norpro+heavy+duty+adjustable+cheese+slicer&qid=1556179316&refinements=p_89%3ANorpro&rnid=2528832011&s=gateway&sr=8-2
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 25, 2019, 06:51:02 AM
Thanks Mike. I had thought that would be the case though I saw a post from Chau suggesting that by freezing the cheese he was getting good results. 


 I actually need a mandoline anyway, so suggestions for a good once still would help. Then, maybe a home slicer


Caymus, thanks. I actually had that for other uses, but didn't seem to have much luck. The wire didn't stay in place...maybe I had the wrong brand.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hotsawce on April 26, 2019, 04:05:04 PM
I'm surprised by the 6 minute bake. My pie seemed to be baked longer. My pie had a prevalent black pepper taste. definitely just straight tomatoes - lots of tang. Not sure I loved the cheese under the sauce.

I have been here twice in the past few weeks.  On my trip a few weeks ago it was my favorite (along with Razza) out of 8 pizzerias I hit.   It DESTROYED johns in the village which I usually love, and I even much preferred it to Joes.  Unfortunately when I just hit it again this past friday the crust was no where near as good as it had been a few weeks ago and I saw boxes of frozen restaurant depot dough balls in the kitchen!   I think their mixer may have been down.

For me the most magical thing is the sauce.  It is for sure Italian tomatoes... I saw the cans.  The brand has changed from years ago, but its still Italian whole peeled tomatoes.... not San Marzanos.  I don't think they thicken the tomatoes, as it goes on really watery.

To me the dough seems to be a classic New York style.   The deviation in the crust from the NY style is that it is started with a rolling pin, and therefore thinner than a typical NY style slice throughout with no taper.    Its a very even ultra thin pizza.  I timed the bake at 5:45
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rtt121 on April 26, 2019, 04:27:29 PM
My experience has been 7:20 both times I went with 6 pies.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: PIZZAFRANK on April 26, 2019, 06:11:27 PM
Hi Everyone! 

This is such big coincidence.  I just went to Johnny's pizza last week.  I decided to give it a try.  I have admired everyone on this site for the longest time.  I just was to shy to actually post anything.  I basically learned how to make pizza off this forum. I have decided to finally try and talk to my pizza heroes! 

I did not see this thread before I decided to try a Johnny's clone. I read https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=28941.0,
and https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13111.0, and https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1262.0.

They spoke about johnny's using a Poolish.  And I also remembered reading about Apizza Scholls and how Brian Spangler also uses a poolish. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11994.0.html

I know its crazy(and maybe makes no sense lol) but I decided to try and mash both recipes together to try and get a Johnnys clone.

Poolish:
204g KABF
204g water (70 deg)
.07 idy

About 12hrs later I added this to poolish:

856g kabf
438g water (70 deg)
.42g idy
22g salt
20g oil
10g sugar

I made 5 dough balls around 375g each.

I mixed everything on 1 on my kitchen aide mixer. I forget to let it mix until it reached 80 deg.  I really just wanted to get it all together. The dough was around 75deg.  I decided to put the dough in the oven with the oven light on.  After about 2hrs it measured 80deg.  I then rolled and balled 5 doughs. Left on the counter for about 2 more hrs.  I think.  I have a 2.5 and 1 year old.  So I tend to lose track of time.  After the second wait the doughs were not as still as I thought they would be. The hydration was only 60% so I expected a much stiffer dough. Im guessing the wait in the oven helped.  I used a rolling pin, and some bench flour.  The dough rolled out pretty easily. I preheated my home oven and used my pizza steel.  First I put the broiler on, then switched to bake at 550 deg.  The pizza steel was reading around 560-567 deg.

For the sauce I used Stu Leonards sauce.  It is jersey tomatos actually. I put the sauce through a colander. I noticed that Johnnys sauce looked pretty thin. I added some oregano, salt, and oil. I try to keep it simple when possible. For the cheese I used boars head low moisture mozzarella. I put the cheese slices down first, then black pepper, the sauce, some olive oil, and some pecorino Romano (I know Johnnys does not do this.  But I like the taste).  It baked for about 7min. Maybe like 7.5min. I put more pecorino on after I took it out.

Some pics:

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 26, 2019, 06:47:09 PM
Bill,

I don’t think there’s such a thing.

You’d need a slicer. Mandolins do a really poor job of slicing cheese. Don’t waste your money.


My OXO does a pretty decent job with well-chilled mozz. and has the benefit of not being a unitasker.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 27, 2019, 06:49:56 AM
Thanks     This one?    https://www.amazon.com/OXO-1155700-V-Blade-Mandoline-Slicer/dp/B001THGPDO
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 27, 2019, 08:27:32 AM
This one:  https://www.amazon.com/OXO-Good-Grips-Mandoline-Slicer/dp/B0000DAQ8B

I keep the blade very sharp.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 27, 2019, 08:32:35 AM
Thanks! So how are you doing that..using whetstone?  Could it be sharpened with a Chef's Choice sharpener..or would there be no way to old the blade, I'm wondering?


This kind of like wondering how dark to toast the bread when the wheat hasn't yet been harvested  :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 27, 2019, 09:47:36 AM

This kind of like wondering how dark to toast the bread when the wheat hasn't yet been harvested  :-D


There's nothing wrong with having a destination in mind before setting out on a journey.  ;D

I use a Smith's dual grit diamond stone.  A Chef's Choice would be tough due to the grip/stop on the end of the blade.



Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 28, 2019, 01:06:20 PM
How does that operate?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on April 28, 2019, 02:18:36 PM
Smith's or OXO blade?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 29, 2019, 09:58:48 AM
Sorry, Smith's
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 24, 2019, 02:48:03 PM
Damn that .066-.07 tf range looks good. So you have settled on rolling the dough out rather than stretching it?
I want to give this a try next week or so... I have never played around with preferment, I am a bit confused on how to do it.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2019, 06:19:01 PM
Wow Norma your latest batch of pies is out of the park! So inspiring to see you cranking out these beauties!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on May 25, 2019, 06:19:57 AM
Wow Norma your latest batch of pies is out of the park! So inspiring to see you cranking out these beauties!

Thanks Ryan, but don't have every right yet.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 28, 2019, 01:40:55 PM
Went out to america yesterday to fill up on gas. Found some of this at the grocery store there. I thought I couls give craigs and mmmphs johnny clone a try sometime soon.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 28, 2019, 02:06:20 PM
That's my go-to flour for pretty everything except Neapolitan.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 28, 2019, 03:44:06 PM
Nice. Do you not like or ever use hi gluten?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 28, 2019, 04:23:33 PM
Nice. Do you not like or ever use hi gluten?

I usually have a bag of All Trumps around because it's easy for me to get, but I generally don't find that I like NY pizza made with it more than with KABF.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 29, 2019, 01:31:51 AM
I am really eager to give this a try. Im drooling over your steel baked pics. I dunno how im gonna weigh the yeast out. Maybe if I make a few dough balls worth it will register on my jewellery scale.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on May 29, 2019, 01:48:18 AM
Sorry, Smith's

Oops, didn't see this.  It's primitive.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 29, 2019, 06:18:31 AM
Thanks John
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 29, 2019, 06:27:22 AM
Dream,


One simple technique.. 


Let's say you need   (point).2 gms IDY  Measure 2 gms IDY, add to 100gms of water. Take 1/10 of that, 10 gms yeast/water and use it as part of your hydration.   


Toss the other 90 gms of  water, (or make 9 more batches  :-D [size=78%])[/size]
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 29, 2019, 03:58:46 PM
Dream,


One simple technique.. 


Let's say you need   (point).2 gms IDY  Measure 2 gms IDY, add to 100gms of water. Take 1/10 of that, 10 gms yeast/water and use it as part of your hydration.   


Toss the other 90 gms of  water, (or make 9 more batches  :-D [size=78%])[/size]

That's pretty clever!

I just tested my jewellery scale and it can actually read .14 grams. I didn't realize it was that accurate! It goes up in .01 gram increments
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: parallei on May 29, 2019, 04:19:29 PM
Dream,


One simple technique.. 


Let's say you need   (point).2 gms IDY  Measure 2 gms IDY, add to 100gms of water. Take 1/10 of that, 10 gms yeast/water and use it as part of your hydration.   


Toss the other 90 gms of  water, (or make 9 more batches  :-D [size=78%])[/size]

That's not exactly correct.  If you add 2 g of yeast to 100 g water you end up with 102 g of solution.

So:  There are 2/102 (or 0.0196 g yeast/g solution)

       10 g solution would provide (10 * 0.0196) or 0.196 g yeast

I know that is hardly any difference at all! ;D   However, it can make a difference at larger scales.

Still, it can be helpful to think of things in the right way.


If you add 2 g yeast to 98 g water you get 100 g of solution.


So:  There is 2/100 (or 0.020 g yeast/g solution)

       10 g solution would provide (10 * 0.020) or 0.200 g yeast


 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on May 29, 2019, 05:25:29 PM
That's not exactly correct.  If you add 2 g of yeast to 100 g water you end up with 102 g of solution.

So:  There are 2/102 (or 0.0196 g yeast/g solution)

       10 g solution would provide (10 * 0.0196) or 0.196 g yeast

I know that is hardly any difference at all! ;D   However, it can make a difference at larger scales.

Still, it can be helpful to think of things in the right way.


If you add 2 g yeast to 98 g water you get 100 g of solution.


So:  There is 2/100 (or 0.020 g yeast/g solution)

       10 g solution would provide (10 * 0.020) or 0.200 g yeast


 


    If one is doing at larger scales....then one would not be using the dilution method.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: parallei on May 29, 2019, 05:29:24 PM

    If one is doing at larger scales....then one would not be using the dilution method.

I guess I was just thinking about solutions in general.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 30, 2019, 03:52:26 PM
So you're good to go...actually idy is the only ingredient I use volume measurements. ..tiny measuring  spoon set. I calibrated it against scale and it works great
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 31, 2019, 01:48:45 PM
The preferment has a few more hours to go until I can turn it into dough. Due to time constraints I am going to skip the 2 hours in fridge bulk and just ball it up and leave it for 2 days.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on May 31, 2019, 05:06:34 PM
Hand mixing the dough was tough. It was really sticky for the first 5 minutes. Like glue. It eventually absorbed and got easier to handle. I was 20 grams short for some reason. I measures for 2 16" dough balls at 390ish grams. One dough ball ended up being 370ish grams. I tried to scrape up as much bowl residue as i could... I am pretty sure I measured everything right.
Cant wait to bake it up on sunday.... hopefully i wont have any launch issues like I usually do :-D...... :o
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on June 01, 2019, 06:12:56 AM
I guess I was just thinking about solutions in general.

Stock solution/dilution solution.  You're stirring up memories of my days as an analytical development chemist.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 02, 2019, 10:50:20 PM
Had some fun with the Johnny's Pizzeria Clone today. The pies were round before I launched them into oven. I still need to work on launching cleanly so it stays round.
Used 6 in 1 that had been pushed through a standard wire strainer. Added some salt (a little bit too much), small and thin cut fresh basil, pinch of oregano and a cap full of olive oil. Sauce was great.
Cracked black pepper over cheese before sauce went on and added grated romano onto the cheese of the pep pie. I forgot to do it for the cheese one.
This pepperoni was greasy garbage. I will be ordering some vermont sticks soon.

I can't seem to get the same under crust charring that you guys get, Craig and Norma. Maybe I need to move my steel down a level toward main element. My oven only goes to 530 too, I know you guys can get up to 550 or more. I guess those are my limitations.

Another thing, I think I could have gone another day with the CF or maybe a few more hours with the preferment. Dough handled great too.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 03, 2019, 12:05:23 AM
I am wondering why the crust curled up like it did. This picture shows what I mean and also notice the pie in the background..... during bake it just slowly curled up, I guess as it was shrinking

Is it due to being under fermented? 
I didn't get much air in the dough ball either to get that airy crust. I didn't pinch when I rolled the dough out.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 12, 2019, 06:14:53 AM
Few photos of 2 Johnny's attempts.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 12, 2019, 07:03:48 AM
Few photos of 2 Johnny's attempts.

Norma

Pretty pizza. Are you still happy with it?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 12, 2019, 08:40:06 AM
Pretty pizza. Are you still happy with it?

Craig,

Thanks!  No yet..lol

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 13, 2019, 02:00:23 AM
It sure looks good! Cant wait to give it another shot soon with more time to ferment.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2019, 05:06:46 AM
It sure looks good! Cant wait to give it another shot soon with more time to ferment.

DreamingOfPizza,

It was good, but think I can do better.  The one got me invited to Luca to eat and watch the head pizza maker make pizzas.   :)  Even get to eat pizzas for free. The head pizza maker, his girlfriend, and the chef that makes the pastas at Luca all really liked it, and couldn't believe it had the same cheese, sauce and crust as my normal pizzas. 

Good luck to you on your next Johnny's clone.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2019, 05:40:02 AM
Yesterday, put those photos on Instagram.  Jeff Varasano commented that he had attempted some Johnny's pizza and wasn't really that successful, and he really never duplicated it, but he said his website put them on the map for pizza enthusiasts.  Jeff also said that the attempts he tried in his replicates wasn't there.  Jeff said the bakes at Johnny's are 4.5 minutes.  Does anyone else know how long Johnny's bakes?

Maybe why Johnny's pizza seems to taste so good might be what Adam Kuban describes (something between a cross between a bar style pizza and a NY style pizza.

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/02/mount-vernon-ny-johnnys-pizzeria-pizza.html

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 14, 2019, 09:01:41 PM
Yesterday, put those photos on Instagram.  Jeff Varasano commented that he had attempted some Johnny's pizza and wasn't really that successful, and he really never duplicated it, but he said his website put them on the map for pizza enthusiasts.  Jeff also said that the attempts he tried in his replicates wasn't there.  Jeff said the bakes at Johnny's are 4.5 minutes.  Does anyone else know how long Johnny's bakes?

Maybe why Johnny's pizza seems to taste so good might be what Adam Kuban describes (something between a cross between a bar style pizza and a NY style pizza.

https://slice.seriouseats.com/2010/02/mount-vernon-ny-johnnys-pizzeria-pizza.html

Norma

I hear they use a rolling pin so it's not really NY style maybe some kind of bar style?

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Essen1 on June 14, 2019, 09:11:10 PM
I didn't pinch when I rolled the dough out.

Why would you roll a dough out to begin with? It ruins it.

If you haven’t gotten the hang of how to stretch, watch some videos on YT and practice, practice, practice...

Flour is cheap.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 15, 2019, 06:13:16 PM
Why would you roll a dough out to begin with? It ruins it.

If you haven’t gotten the hang of how to stretch, watch some videos on YT and practice, practice, practice...

Because it's a Johnny's clone and this is how they do it at Johnny's Pizzeria.
If you check my NY style thread all of my other pies are hand stretched.

Also, I would disagree about rolling out the dough ruining it. Look at Lucalis, he rolls his dough and his pizza is regarded as one of the best in NY, that goes for Johnny's too.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 16, 2019, 10:47:34 PM
Because it's a Johnny's clone and this is how they do it at Johnny's Pizzeria.
If you check my NY style thread all of my other pies are hand stretched.

Also, I would disagree about rolling out the dough ruining it. Look at Lucalis, he rolls his dough and his pizza is regarded as one of the best in NY, that goes for Johnny's too.

Johnny's Pizzeria isn't NY style.  It is a large crunchy bar style pie.  Very thin, and rolled out dough.  Lucali's also isn't "NY style"
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 17, 2019, 12:06:25 AM
I didn't claim that they are NY style but that they are regarded by many as one of the top Pizzerias in NY, among a few others. Wether they are NY style or not. Point being is rolled out dough pies aren't bad.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DanAyo on June 21, 2019, 09:06:17 AM
Craig, Since many replies generally accompany a popular pizza style post, how would a user find the latest version of the initial bake? Is it necessary to read through all of the links, or is there a better way?

Danny
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 21, 2019, 09:54:36 AM
Craig, Since many replies generally accompany a popular pizza style post, how would a user find the latest version of the initial bake? Is it necessary to read through all of the links, or is there a better way?

Danny

In this case, it's pretty much the first post.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DanAyo on June 21, 2019, 11:16:34 AM
Thanks, Craig.

I’m new to the forum. I’ve spent a lot of time reading through pizza post that interest me, searching for the latest (most improved) version of the pie. It seems most bakers post their initial attempts and then tweak them in order the perfect the bake.

Wouldn’t it be nice if the original poster would edit their initial post with the latest version of the pie? It could be placed at the bottom of the first post and marked as, “The Last (or final) Version”. The arthur could either copy and paste that version or reference the reply#.

Of course in this case the initial formula and method is the final one. Noting that in the first post would also help.

Just a thought. What do you think?

Danny
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: HansB on June 21, 2019, 11:35:09 AM
We only have a limited amount of time to edit a post.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 21, 2019, 12:22:09 PM
Just a thought. What do you think?

Yes, not being able to identify the latest/most relevent information in  long thread is a huge limitation of the forum. There is so much information that it can be extremely difficult to find specific things here even if you have a pretty good idea what you're looking for.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on June 21, 2019, 01:03:30 PM
Danny,

What Hans and Craig say is correct. Sometimes, I create stickys to lead members to some of the best recipes of our members but I discovered that such stickys don't attract a lot of page views because people want standalone recipes and instructions as one might find in a pizza cookbook. Also, I don't look at every new recipe and post a link to it somewhere. I usually wait until a given recipe has been pretty much perfected and there is enough information to allow others to try the recipe. And I will often update entries if I catch them. An example of what I am talking about is the listings at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

It will be seen that the above sticky has gotten one Like :-D. And that is after a period of time closing in on nine years. It will also be seen that I created an entry for Craig's Johnny's clone. But I will take it down if Craig would like me to if one Like is not enough for any list he is on :-D.

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DanAyo on June 21, 2019, 02:28:20 PM
WOW, Peter! You are one busy guy.

As a new comer to the forum, I have lots to learn about navigating the site. BUT, I am a persistent sort...

It seems you have condensed a lot of information for us. Hopefully I’ll learn where to find it :D Is there a Road Map available with links to all of the condensed info? My memory is not good, so I wake up each day and have to start all over again ;-) I need notes to find my notes.

As a TOKEN of appreciation, I’d encourage all active users to become a Supporting Member. The cost to otherwise obtain this amount of information is priceless, and unavailable at any cost...

Danny
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on June 21, 2019, 02:48:48 PM

It seems you have condensed a lot of information for us. Hopefully I’ll learn where to find it :D Is there a Road Map available with links to all of the condensed info? My memory is not good, so I wake up each day and have to start all over again ;-) I need notes to find my notes.

Danny
Danny,

No, there are not many roadmaps although I created one for the Lehmann NY style experiments I conducted over the years, at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1453.msg13193#msg13193

However, many of the lists I have put together are stickys that you can find by clicking on the major boards and some child boards. Over the years, I have also made some of the most popular boards stickys so they can be found more quickly. If you click on the boards, the stickys appear at the top of the lists of threads.

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 21, 2019, 09:24:32 PM
I didn't claim that they are NY style but that they are regarded by many as one of the top Pizzerias in NY, among a few others. Wether they are NY style or not. Point being is rolled out dough pies aren't bad.

No problem, apparently most of the forum assumes it is

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 22, 2019, 12:21:35 PM
Danny,

What Hans and Craig say is correct. Sometimes, I create stickys to lead members to some of the best recipes of our members but I discovered that such stickys don't attract a lot of page views because people want standalone recipes and instructions as one might find in a pizza cookbook. Also, I don't look at every new recipe and post a link to it somewhere. I usually wait until a given recipe has been pretty much perfected and there is enough information to allow others to try the recipe. And I will often update entries if I catch them. An example of what I am talking about is the listings at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=11860.msg110289#msg110289

It will be seen that the above sticky has gotten one Like :-D. And that is after a period of time closing in on nine years. It will also be seen that I created an entry for Craig's Johnny's clone.
But I will take it down if Craig would like me to if one Like is not enough for any list he is on :-D.
Peter
I could probably get my fan base to add a few likes...if that would help. 🤕
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 24, 2019, 08:48:49 AM
Made two attempts of a Johnny's clone this past Tuesday.  The little added extra shredded cheese didn't work quite well.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vdempsey on June 24, 2019, 10:01:33 AM
Hello Norma,

I love cheese and that extra cheese added to your pie is  :drool:.

Vida
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 24, 2019, 10:21:42 AM
Hello Norma,

I love cheese and that extra cheese added to your pie is  :drool:.

Vida

Vida,

The taste was really good, of the whole pizza, but some parts of the bottom crust weren't as crispy.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vdempsey on June 24, 2019, 11:50:01 AM
Vida,

The taste was really good, of the whole pizza, but some parts of the bottom crust weren't as crispy.

Norma

Yes I understand clearly Norma. As a newbie, I can only learn from a master pizza maker such as yourself.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 24, 2019, 09:26:04 PM
Sure is a piss poor slicer, but found it at market today in the drawer with the lost little piggies.  :-D  Decided to try the slicer for a Johnny's clone tomorrow. Sliced 14 oz. of slices.  Put the cheese in the freezer until it was really cold before trying to slice.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: deb415611 on June 25, 2019, 06:50:13 AM
that's devotion to making a Johnny's clone

I really need to take a tuesday off and come eat one of those some day
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 25, 2019, 07:13:10 PM
Sure is a piss poor slicer, but found it at market today in the drawer with the lost little piggies.  :-D  Decided to try the slicer for a Johnny's clone tomorrow. Sliced 14 oz. of slices.  Put the cheese in the freezer until it was really cold before trying to slice.

Norma

  Try turning the screw to tighten the wire up a lil.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 25, 2019, 09:34:26 PM
that's devotion to making a Johnny's clone

I really need to take a tuesday off and come eat one of those some day

Deb,

Was just being lazy.  Could have gotten the cheese sliced at the Country Store, but didn't want to make another stop on the way home.  Would love if you visited someday.  :)
  Try turning the screw to tighten the wire up a lil.

Lol Bob, 

Is that how that cheap thing works.   :-D  I keep trying to tighten the two side screws and the one on the handle.  Thought I was getting it tighter, but guess all things have to work together.  Thanks for the help!

Norma

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 25, 2019, 10:48:37 PM
Deb,

Was just being lazy.  Could have gotten the cheese sliced at the Country Store, but didn't want to make another stop on the way home.  Would love if you visited someday.  :)
Lol Bob, 

Is that how that cheap thing works.   :-D  I keep trying to tighten the two side screws and the one on the handle.  Thought I was getting it tighter, but guess all things have to work together.  Thanks for the help!

Norma

The screw on the handle is your thickness gauge....but if the cutting wire is not "taunt" your slices are going to be cresent shaped.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Carmine Abramo on June 25, 2019, 11:12:30 PM
Surprised nobody talking about the best rolling pin brand for this pie
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2019, 06:06:42 AM
The screw on the handle is your thickness gauge....but if the cutting wire is not "taunt" your slices are going to be cresent shaped.

Thanks Bob!  At least how they were sliced worked for me yesterday. 

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: HansB on June 26, 2019, 09:13:51 AM
Surprised nobody talking about the best rolling pin brand for this pie

That's because we all know it's the Ebuns French Rolling Pin, where've you been?  :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 26, 2019, 03:15:56 PM
That's because we all know it's the Ebuns French Rolling Pin, where've you been?  :-D


   Or....the ACME "Gold Series" Neapolitan Pin.
Of course.   ;)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on June 26, 2019, 07:10:03 PM
 I dont know what would make a rolling pin better... I suppose if the handles screwed in and out for better storage.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 26, 2019, 09:38:14 PM
Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 26, 2019, 09:39:19 PM
Awesome.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: invertedisdead on June 26, 2019, 09:40:04 PM
Awesome.

 ^^^ very nice Norma!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: parallei on June 26, 2019, 10:34:26 PM
Boy, does that look good Norma. :chef:

I wish you were baking pies here in Denver.  Yesterday I made one of my very rare trips to a pizza place here.  I stopped by a small mom and pop joint for a plain cheese slice.  The crust was O.K., but I literally could not taste the tomato or cheese! Just salt.  They were very nice people so I felt I had to finish the slice.  We need you here!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 27, 2019, 06:21:47 AM
Hey Norma, maybe some road trip pop-ups!  Great pie!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2019, 07:32:57 AM
Awesome.

Thanks so much Craig for starting this thread! :)  Really would like to try to sell this kind of pizza at market, but there are some things that might stop me from trying.  Everyone that tried slices so far really like the pizza.  Really interesting how the cheese down first changes everything.  This last attempt was rolled out with the big rolling pin.

^^^ very nice Norma!

Thanks Ryan!

Boy, does that look good Norma. :chef:

I wish you were baking pies here in Denver.  Yesterday I made one of my very rare trips to a pizza place here.  I stopped by a small mom and pop joint for a plain cheese slice.  The crust was O.K., but I literally could not taste the tomato or cheese! Just salt.  They were very nice people so I felt I had to finish the slice.  We need you here!

Thanks!

Wish I could bake some pies in Denver.  If you try this style of pizza, you will notice the taste of the sauce and cheese stand out more than what you tried yesterday at the small mom and pop joint. 

Hey Norma, maybe some road trip pop-ups!  Great pie!

Bill, 

Am getting to old for road trip pop-ups.  :-D It's all I can do is try to get things done at market, try to paint and do yard work at home, and try to do things for family members.  The heat is getting to me more each year too.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2019, 08:10:19 AM
Forgot to post this photo, but thought it was interesting that even though the rim crust didn't have much oven spring, cause of using a rolling in, the rim crust was still moist inside and there was an egg shell like rim crust.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Irishboy on June 27, 2019, 03:08:01 PM
They have adjustable rolling pins that work good without pushing all the air out the crust
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Irishboy on June 27, 2019, 03:09:31 PM
Norma
That's a beautiful pizza
Do you use a poolish on these?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on June 27, 2019, 09:20:28 PM
That's a beautiful pizza
Do you use a poolish on these?

Josh,

Thanks!  I don't use a poolish.  Use the dough that is used for market.  Might have to try Craig's method sometime.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on June 28, 2019, 10:42:32 PM
It sounds like you need to get a bigger oven.  It's not NY unless it's at least 18". :)
100%
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 30, 2019, 07:37:57 PM


   I snagged these 2 bags of cheese this morning at Restaurant Depot.

Could someone please tell me if either of these are any good/which would be best for the Craig dough I have going?
Thank you Pizza Pals!  8)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 30, 2019, 08:39:37 PM
The NY blend would be better on this pie, IMO.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on June 30, 2019, 09:36:31 PM
The NY blend would be better on this pie, IMO.

Yeah.  Save the prov/mozz for eggplant parm.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 30, 2019, 11:06:08 PM
Yeah.  Save the prov/mozz for eggplant parm.


   Or maybe blend into my next Gouda Love pizza.  🔥
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 01, 2019, 12:41:58 AM



   Well..... I knew this was gonna be good..... but jeeezus....thank you C!! :drool:

450 stone on lowest rack for 3 min. pulled and jacked oven to 550 convection bake....while waiting couple min. dusted pie with parm/reg an couple torn basil....back into the heat for about 7mins.  Sooo niiice.

Next time I will do 550 for both stages.   :chef:

Thanks again Craig.  8)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on July 01, 2019, 06:50:53 AM
Good stuff Bob!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jvp123 on July 01, 2019, 02:45:45 PM


   Well..... I knew this was gonna be good..... but jeeezus....thank you C!! :drool:

450 stone on lowest rack for 3 min. pulled and jacked oven to 550 convection bake....while waiting couple min. dusted pie with parm/reg an couple torn basil....back into the heat for about 7mins.  Sooo niiice.

Next time I will do 550 for both stages.   :chef:

Thanks again Craig.  8)


Looks tasty!  :chef:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on July 03, 2019, 01:40:53 AM
Does Johnnys use a bread flour in their restaurant? Im wondering how the johnnys clone will do with high gluten flour like all trumps.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: NYSliceUK on July 03, 2019, 10:55:37 AM
By pure coincidence... :(
https://eu.lohud.com/story/news/local/westchester/mount-vernon/2019/07/01/mount-vernon-fire-johnnys-pizzeria/1617420001/
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 03, 2019, 09:02:55 PM
I hope those pizza peeps get on a diet or something before something bad happens.  🐷
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on July 05, 2019, 09:48:29 PM
Looking through Johnnys Pizzeria Instagram apparently the founder Johnny and his brother liked their pizzas this way...
 Kinda gross if you ask me.... and very unhealthy. Funny how the creators of such a highly rated pizza place prefer their pies cremated.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: invertedisdead on July 07, 2019, 11:10:09 AM
Looking through Johnnys Pizzeria Instagram apparently the founder Johnny and his brother liked their pizzas this way...
 Kinda gross if you ask me.... and very unhealthy. Funny how the creators of such a highly rated pizza place prefer their pies cremated.

You could smoke a brisket with that much charcoal!  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vdempsey on July 07, 2019, 11:17:17 AM
Looking through Johnnys Pizzeria Instagram apparently the founder Johnny and his brother liked their pizzas this way...
 Kinda gross if you ask me.... and very unhealthy. Funny how the creators of such a highly rated pizza place prefer their pies cremated.

 that's a  :(  :pizza:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 07, 2019, 02:00:59 PM
Looking through Johnnys Pizzeria Instagram apparently the founder Johnny and his brother liked their pizzas this way...
 Kinda gross if you ask me.... and very unhealthy. Funny how the creators of such a highly rated pizza place prefer their pies cremated.

  He died a few years ago....wonder what from?  ::)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on July 07, 2019, 04:31:44 PM
  He died a few years ago....wonder what from?  ::)

I don't eat bread anymore, but I love burnt sourdough toast.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 07, 2019, 04:44:01 PM
I don't eat bread anymore, but I love burnt sourdough toast.


   And you're still alive dude? 😜
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on July 07, 2019, 04:52:34 PM

   And you're still alive dude? 😜

For now...  Two brothers who've had cancer.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2019, 07:16:09 AM
18" Johnny's clone attempt.  Rolled out most of the way then hand stretched.  Rim crust was a little darker than photos show.  When pie was on metal peel it was put back into oven for a little while.

Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: norma427 on July 10, 2019, 07:17:14 AM
Norma
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 13, 2019, 12:12:20 AM

  Another one..... This crust is mighty fine. 👍
Thanks again C!

Goofed up and put sauce on bottom.... But with this new "NY blend cheese"... Pie was still dang delisious that's for sure. 🤑
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: DreamingOfPizza on July 13, 2019, 04:08:45 AM
Nice ones, Norma and Bob!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 13, 2019, 06:20:17 AM
Want to take a shot at the Johnny's clone, but I am not sure if my stone has the thermal mass to bake the cheese and sauce together.
And I don't feel like moving my 100lb slicer.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on July 14, 2019, 01:46:14 AM
C'mon, do it! :)
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 14, 2019, 09:08:16 AM
I did already, the results where good but  very smokey. I'll talk about the problems I ran into. The crust was made thin and flat end to end, as a results cheese and sauce pooled onto the stone creating plumes of smoke.
 
Honestly had no idea that without a cornicone cheese and sauce WILL get onto the stone and create hell. The 1st pie had cheese and sauce close to the edge, HUGE mistake. I made the 2nd pie with a cheese and sauce not as close to the edge, a good inch of crust, it pooled anyway but nowhere near as bad.

How did it taste? Great! The crust was thin and crispy, especially the edges. When I cut into the pizza i heard a loud crunch at each end  ;D. The cheese melted beautifully, so much so it homogenized with the sauce. The sauce was great value crushed, I strained out the juices and added some pulp back to get my desired consistency. It was far thinner than straight out of the can.

This picture is from Johnny's 1942 website so it's my bench mark.
http://www.johnnys1942.com/photos/files/page4-1022-full.html
I need to make my pizza a tiny bit thicker at the rim. Pictures won't come till Friday or Saturday unfortunately.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 14, 2019, 09:14:27 AM
Also QD's stone worked flawlessly!
 who woulda known, without a stone I'd be dead in the water?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quietdesperation on July 14, 2019, 05:00:04 PM
happy to hear you're getting some use out of it!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: PIZZAFRANK on July 15, 2019, 04:06:15 PM
Hey guys,

Some more Johnny pies. Really like making these pies. Sorry to hear that Johnny's pizza had a fire. Hope they are up and running soon.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: PIZZAFRANK on July 15, 2019, 04:11:34 PM
Some more pics
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on July 15, 2019, 07:27:26 PM
Hey guys,

Some more Johnny pies. Really like making these pies. Sorry to hear that Johnny's pizza had a fire. Hope they are up and running soon.

   Nice one pizza frank!  🕴️
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: PIZZAFRANK on July 16, 2019, 08:43:16 PM
Thanks Chicago Bob. I really appreciate
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2020, 09:23:18 PM
Well it's been awhile.... But tonight I have a hankering for a Craig Johnny clone.

Need to redeem myself from those sloppy dogs I did last year.
I think I got this now.... And the Blackstone is currently warning up.... I'll be back.  🙈🍻🎰
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 04, 2020, 10:28:33 PM


   This here operation was a success... all went quite well.  🍸

Blackstone @ around 680 f. about 4 1/2 min.   

Exquisite pizza and boy do I like the taste of that lil bit O'char!   :drool:

Thanks once again to the man down Texas way...🤠
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 04, 2020, 10:47:50 PM
Quote
Thanks once again to the man down Texas way...🤠

You're most welcome!

Very nice!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jon in Albany on April 05, 2020, 09:29:45 AM
Nice bake, Bob! Looks tasty.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on April 05, 2020, 11:04:14 AM

   This here operation was a success... all went quite well. 

Blackstone @ around 680 f. about 4 1/2 min.   

Exquisite pizza and boy do I like the taste of that lil bit O'char!   :drool:

Thanks once again to the man down Texas way...

That looks oustanding!!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 05, 2020, 07:28:07 PM
Going to try a johnys Clone tomorrow, hopefully.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2020, 07:42:38 PM


   Thank you to my pizza pals for the thumbs up on my  latest....I continue to always keep learning from you guys and sometimes I actually remember to apply that knowledge.  🤗🍻
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 05, 2020, 07:52:03 PM
Going to try a johnys Clone tomorrow, hopefully.

Go for it dude... the cheese on bottom first makes for a crazy good change of pace!  :chef:

Don't be bashful with the sauce drip/spooning on the top.... my last one could have used a lil more I think but then I usually have a small bowl of the sauce on the table for dipping the bones so it all worked out fine. I had sausage coins on that last one..... plain cheese pie with Grana grated post bake an a few fresh basil strips don't hurt either.

Good luck with yours MR....🍸🌴
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quixoteQ on April 21, 2020, 10:26:41 PM
These are the first pies I’ve made in five years.  Wow.  Anyway, they’re pretty much Craig’s J clones, so I thought I’d plug them here.  Quite tasty, though the mozz was a little flavorless (something from the local grocery delivery - fairly thinly sliced, which was nice, but flavorless). 

Hand stretched, 14”, 350g.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on April 21, 2020, 10:28:27 PM
Good old Johnny clone... nice Jeff!   :chef:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: foreplease on April 21, 2020, 10:53:39 PM

Very nice! https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU (https://youtu.be/UPw-3e_pzqU)

These are the first pies I’ve made in five years.  Wow.  Anyway, they’re pretty much Craig’s J clones, so I thought I’d plug them here.  Quite tasty, though the mozz was a little flavorless (something from the local grocery delivery - fairly thinly sliced, which was nice, but flavorless). 

Hand stretched, 14”, 350g.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quixoteQ on April 21, 2020, 11:07:23 PM
Thanks guys - for the thoughts as well as your tasty pizzas.  And as always, special thanks, Craig!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 22, 2020, 07:29:07 AM
 ;D

Looking good!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quietdesperation on April 22, 2020, 10:53:29 AM

Preferment:
100g flour
100g water
2.2 grains IDY (1 grain = 1/7000lb – measured with a reloading scale)


this looks so good, but it took an hour with a magnifying glass and a sharp knife to cut a .2 grain of yeast.  ;D

seriously, I'm going to try a johnny's clone next bake, deli counter is closed but maybe I'll order a mandoline or just try with shredded grande. Embarrassingly, Johnny's is just 40 mins away or about a 10 min detour from our route to/from NYC but I've never been
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 22, 2020, 11:35:57 AM
Here's my John's clone, I made the crust as thin as possible and it was good!

This was a 10 day old dough and it was still healthy.

Looking at these pictures makes me want do try this again.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quietdesperation on April 22, 2020, 12:20:19 PM
was that hand stretched or did you use a roller?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: foreplease on April 22, 2020, 01:42:04 PM
Here's my John's clone, I made the crust as thin as possible and it was good!

This was a 10 day old dough and it was still healthy.

Looking at these pictures makes me want do try this again.
Love that! Bet it was great.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 22, 2020, 03:21:18 PM
was that hand stretched or did you use a roller?
roller, then hand stretched and lastly I used a pizza cutter to cut it into a circle. It was amobea shaped orginally.

Using a cutter really allows it to have a nearly flat edge.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 22, 2020, 03:21:39 PM
Love that! Bet it was great.
Definitely my favorite imitation
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: quietdesperation on April 25, 2020, 10:05:20 PM
made my first clone, thanks craig for posting this recipe:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg617427#msg617427

it has become clear I have a lot to learn about preferments.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chi_Guy on May 18, 2020, 02:07:18 AM
My Johnny’s clone below.  I used the Apizza School’s recipe which also uses a poolish but decreased the hydration to 59% and added 2% each olive oil and sugar for color and crispness.  Bulk fermented at room temperature for 4 hours, followed by an 18 hour CF, and then proofed for 3 hours. I hand stretched the dough to about 13” and then used a rolling pin to gently roll it out to 14”. I find that this helps evens out the crust without degassing.

Pizza was topped with sliced Boars Head mozzarella, a little shredded white cheddar to fill in the gaps, crushed Cento tomatoes diluted with water, and topped with spinach, shiitake mushrooms, olive oil, and romano cheese. Baked on steel for 5 minutes.  I still need to work on the consistency of the sauce but overall it turned out pretty good.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: tommydgun on June 12, 2020, 05:40:33 PM
Oh man I finally got to make this one and I think it came out great!  My favorite NY pizza recipe yet.  I didn't do this poolish this time, but everything else was the same.  Really liked the roll + hand-stretch.

Made it in my ooni pro with red oak as fuel and cooked around 600-650 degrees.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 18, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
1) Yes.
2) I used 100% of the yeast in the preferment both times I tried this.
3) Yes.
4) No, only about 3 hours. It rose some in the additional 24 hours and didn't need as much time at RT. This time it was mostly to bring the dough back to RT.
5) Yes.
I've never used a preferment, but I definitely want to give it a try! I'm using the preferment dough calculator and it ask for percentage of water and flour, just a little confused about what I should input into to each field for this recipe any help on this would be greatly appreciated! Thank you.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 21, 2020, 05:17:52 PM
Gave it a try last night, but made it in my WFO @ 600 with a 4-5 min bake time.  I was happy with the TF and the crunch, with a few adjustments I think i will like this style even more! Thank you for the recipe and discussions on this post!

Vince.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 21, 2020, 08:31:44 PM
Looks great!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Chicago Bob on June 21, 2020, 10:23:28 PM
Gave it a try last night, but made it in my WFO @ 600 with a 4-5 min bake time.  I was happy with the TF and the crunch, with a few adjustments I think i will like this style even more! Thank you for the recipe and discussions on this post!

Vince.
    Boy.... That's a nice one Vince!   :drool:.  :chef:.  :pizza:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 22, 2020, 10:08:37 AM
Much appreciated guys!! Next time a little more cheese and I'll be in pizza heaven  :drool:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 22, 2020, 12:14:37 PM
For a Johnny's clone, that cheese looks pretty spot on!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on June 22, 2020, 05:42:31 PM
That's good to know! I guess it wouldn't be a Johnny's clone if I added more cheese. (cooked in WFO, so not johnnys to start with  ;D).  Maybe the taste of the char over powerd the overall flavor of the pie, being that the sauce and cheese are kinda sparse?  Did you cook yours on steel? I think if I don't have a flame going and watch the temp and time I sould be good. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jsaras on June 22, 2020, 05:56:09 PM
(cooked in WFO, so not johnnys to start with  ;D). 

It then becomes a Gianni!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on June 22, 2020, 08:53:47 PM
Yes, I make it on steel.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: buenokid on November 22, 2020, 10:20:17 AM
Had really great success with this recipe. I scaled everything so the final dough ball would be 300g. I think I would have liked a little extra for the crust but I think the results came out like one would expect. I might go back to 330g for a 14" pizza.

Flour 182g - 100% (I believe I used Gold Medal Bread Flour)
Water 108g - 60%
Salt 4.4g - 2.4%
Oil 4g - 2%
IDY - 5 grains or so

Dough
I did a pre-ferment using 58g of flour and 58 grams of water from the total dough ball weight. Added a few grains of IDY to this and left it overnight for 12 hours. The next morning I mixed everything by hand and did some light kneading for a few minutes. I then did about 4 stretch and folds every 10 minutes. I balled and put in the fridge for over 24 hours.

Let the dough sit out for about 5 hours before rolling/hand stretching. It was quite wet yet but dipping in flour/semolina made it relatively easy to work with. I look forward to handling another dough like this and stretching! It got so thin but stayed strong and I didn't tear it.

Sauce
I used Cento whole tomatoes. Squeezed out most of the juice from about 6-7 tomatoes and then used the stick blender to get it down to a smoother consistency. Seasoned with a little sugar and olive oil.

Toppings
Used sliced lowfat mozz grocery store variety and some pieces of fresh mozz. Used ATK sausage recipe. Forgot to put on before baking so I added some grated romano once it came out of the oven.

Baking
Topped with sliced mozz, then sauce, sausage, fresh mozz, black pepper, and a little oregano. Heated a stone on the bottom of the oven for about an hour at 500F (can't go hotter  :-\). I also put some baking tiles near the top. I baked for about 10 minutes on the bottom stone and then transfered to the top tiles to use the broiler. It helped get a little more color on the crust.


This made a great pizza. It kind of reminded me of the bar style pizzas I've made but thinner. As usual, I wish the oven was a little hotter. Can't wait to try this again. Thanks to Mmmph and Craig for their initial work!



Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hammettjr on November 22, 2020, 10:36:33 AM

As usual, I wish the oven was a little hotter...


Nice looking pie!

I dont recommend using appliances in ways they aren't intended, but fyi, I've heard that many ovens have a calibration option that enables you to adjust the temp by +35 degrees.

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: buenokid on November 22, 2020, 10:39:49 AM
Nice looking pie!

I dont recommend using appliances in ways they aren't intended, but fyi, I've heard that many ovens have a calibration option that enables you to adjust the temp by +35 degrees.

Thanks for that bit of information!

As a side note, I live in Wisconsin and know nothing about east coast pizza other than what I read/see, but I've come to appreciate on a whole new level as I research more.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on November 22, 2020, 12:58:02 PM
Looks great.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on November 23, 2020, 07:39:27 PM
Nice looking pie!

I dont recommend using appliances in ways they aren't intended, but fyi, I've heard that many ovens have a calibration option that enables you to adjust the temp by +35 degrees.

I was a metrologist for several years.  Tweak it!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: hammettjr on November 23, 2020, 10:41:34 PM
I was a metrologist for several years.  Tweak it!

Well, I happen to bake at what may appear to be an atypical temp of 535  ;)

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: sodface on November 23, 2020, 10:58:27 PM
I was a metrologist for several years.

Seems like you should have said something like, "I was a metrologist for 1213 days, 6 hours, 32 minutes, and 16 seconds."
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: jkb on November 24, 2020, 11:53:14 PM
Seems like you should have said something like, "I was a metrologist for 1213 days, 6 hours, 32 minutes, and 16 seconds."

6 years +/- 2%.  Traceable to NIST.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 02, 2020, 03:16:46 AM
Time to make a johnnys clone, honestly love this style.
If I'm not too tired I should have dough made tomorrow.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: mattcampy on March 15, 2021, 02:14:26 PM
Longtime listener, first time caller so to speak.

Never been to Johnny's but love the descriptions I've seen here and wanted to give it a go. I followed Craig's original clone recipe with a few minor differences (cold ferment was 48h vs 36h, day-of counter rise was 2-3hrs vs 6, and I used a watered down stanislaus superdolce sauce). Made 2 dough balls of 380g planning for 16" pies.

Notes: rolled dough (surprised I still had my rolling pin in the drawer) to about 15" then pulled it out to about around 17" by hand. Was very happy with how this went, dough was springy and resilient despite being very thin.

- Topped with WMLM mozz that I hand sliced to be thin, "shingled" probably the best term
- Filled in gaps with shredded brick cheese (love this cheese for its mozz-like melting but rich/salty flavor)
- Splashed on sauce with the wrist motion that the guys do in the restaurant (this was a mess and I ended up putting on way too much in hindsight)
- pinch of pepper
- pinch of romano
- swirl of oil

First pie: 550 w/ conv fan on, cooking on steel set in lower third of oven to fan blew over it. I was targeting 7 minutes but wasn't getting the color on the top that I wanted so I kept it going up to about 8:30-9 minutes. This got the look I wanted but the crust cooked out way too much.

I was really happy with this first attempt but I definitely had too much sauce and while the pie cooked well the crust was way too crunchy.

Second pie: I added pepperoni but generally followed the same routine. I ran out of sauce mid-build and in a quick panic filled the void with a makeshift sauce I hastily watered down from a detroit pizza. The main variable I wanted to play with was if I could get the cooking time down to around that 7 minute mark while still having a dark bake on top. So for this I turned off the convection fan and turned on the broiler (unfortunately the steel was already set in the lower third of the oven so this didn't have the effect I was hoping for.) This one was a bit of the opposite where it has good bendable elasticity but looked pale and undercooked.

Final verdict were two good tasting pies that missed the mark but give me hope for improvement! Next time I'd like to set the steel up under the broiler and see if that would result in a darker bake in less overall time. Also want to upgrade the flour from KABF to all trumps bleached/bromated.

Here are some pics:
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Dasnyde4 on March 21, 2021, 06:58:45 PM
I know this thread is a few years old, but I appreciate everyone's work especially Craig!  I've been itching to try this out for a while and finally got around to it!  Was very good.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on March 21, 2021, 07:26:16 PM
I know this thread is a few years old, but I appreciate everyone's work especially Craig!  I've been itching to try this out for a while and finally got around to it!  Was very good.
  Dang, that looks great!  What did you cook it in?
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 22, 2021, 07:08:42 AM
  Dang, that looks great!  What did you cook it in?

 ^^^
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Dasnyde4 on March 22, 2021, 10:10:27 AM
  Dang, that looks great!  What did you cook it in?

Cooked on Steel at 535 approximately 7 minutes. The top typically does not cook super well, so I was happy how it turned out.  Not show, was my first one with just sauce on top.  For some reason it got almost to crispy.  The second one (shown) I put some extra cheese on top which made it.  Added  Mozzarella on the bottom and a sprinkled new york white cheddar on top.  It is definitely a different style, but it was fun to mix it up from my normal New York style!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 22, 2021, 05:35:20 PM
Cooked on Steel at 535 approximately 7 minutes. The top typically does not cook super well, so I was happy how it turned out.  Not show, was my first one with just sauce on top.  For some reason it got almost to crispy.  The second one (shown) I put some extra cheese on top which made it.  Added  Mozzarella on the bottom and a sprinkled new york white cheddar on top.  It is definitely a different style, but it was fun to mix it up from my normal New York style!
Can you move the steel up any in the oven. I get better results the higher I go. (I don't use the broiler).
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Dasnyde4 on March 24, 2021, 08:44:43 AM
I think I'm going to give that a shot next time. It is currently upper third of the oven, but maybe I'll move it to the first or second notch.   Less room for launching which makes me a little nervous, but I think it is time.  I appreciate the tip!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Yeasty Boy on March 30, 2021, 12:52:50 PM
I gave the Johnny's Clone pizza a shot this past weekend. Eventful to say the least. :-\

12 hr Preferment:
90g KAAP
90g RO water
1/16 t IDY

I was scared to use only 3 grains, so I went heavier. Could have used much less...it was very active after 12 hours

Added to the preferment -
135 g KAAP
45g RO water
5g salt
5g oil

48 hours refrigerator fermentation. Removed, and 3 hours to get to 60 F (kept in a small tupperware container)

Made a 362g ball (I only made one)

550F on steel

8 oz Galbani mozzarella, frozen, then shaved as thin as I could.

Sauce - Drained and pureed whole tomatoes, EVOO, oregano, a little sugar, and salt

Toppings - a little extra sharp cheddar, sweet sausage and pepperoni

Rolled the dough out, then hand-stretched. It was on the edge of being too big for my steel, but would have been ok with a perfect launch. Launch was 95% perfect. >:(

When launched, the front 1/2" drooped over the edge of the steel. I tried to flip it over but it wouldn't stay, and I was losing heat messing with it, so I let it go.

Things were going ok until the 4 minute mark, when the drooping edge became a leak where some sauce from the top dripped onto the oven bottom.

The oven starts smoking, but I had roughly a minute remaining so I had to let it go.

Next, the smoke alarm goes off..."WHAAA...WHAAA...WHAAA....EVACUATE...EVACUATE (it talks)!!..." My wife starts fanning around it and opening windows as I wait for the pizza to finish. The cats are freaking out and yeowling...what a train wreck....the cacophony stopped after about 2 long minutes.

Pulled the pizza out and it in better shape than expected. I guess I used a little too much sauce because the inner 3.5" diameter was "wet." From 3.5" to the 14" edge, it was crisp and tasted great.

I'm going to try again this weekend, with a 330g total ball weight and a bit less sauce. More evenly sliced cheese too. If I screw this one up, my wife may not let me try this style again.  :-D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: psedillo on April 19, 2021, 09:47:23 AM
This past weekend I was at Restaurant Depot and picked up a 25 lb bag of All Trumps Bleached Bromated Enriched Malted High Gluten Flour. While I know that this specific recipe is built around KAAP, I'm curious how it would work with the All Trumps.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 21, 2021, 09:10:35 AM
The more I use AT, the more I like it.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 21, 2021, 09:31:55 AM

I really like it a lot but can't find it anywhere here :(
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: psedillo on April 21, 2021, 09:33:37 AM
The more I use AT, the more I like it.

I've never worked with it, but from all that I've read on here it seems like a great flour to work with. I think it was many of your posts that moved me away from using 00 flour. Now I only use 00 when I make pasta.

Today I'm going to do a batch of dough with AT to attempt my first Johnny's Clone.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: psedillo on April 21, 2021, 09:34:15 AM
I really like it a lot but can't find it anywhere here :(

If you have a Restaurant Depot in your area, they tend to carry it.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on April 21, 2021, 09:40:42 AM
It's where I always got it before we moved...but the only GM  li flour both my local RD seem to carry is Harvest King.
But thank you

Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on April 21, 2021, 11:10:23 AM
Unfortunately in CA we don't have access to AT bromated. Has any one tried both bromated and non bromated and speak on the difference in flavor?  Is there anything that can be added to non bromated in order to duplicate the flavor of bromated?  Thanks!
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: TXCraig1 on April 21, 2021, 01:32:59 PM
Unfortunately in CA we don't have access to AT bromated. Has any one tried both bromated and non bromated and speak on the difference in flavor?  Is there anything that can be added to non bromated in order to duplicate the flavor of bromated?  Thanks!

The bromate doesn't do anything for the flavor - just speeds up gluten development.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: parallei on April 21, 2021, 04:28:40 PM
The bromate doesn't do anything for the flavor - just speeds up gluten development.

What Craig said.

A place here in Denver always has AT (50 lb sacks) with no bromate, but one time they had the bromated stuff so I bought some. No taste difference but seemed to mix up more readily. For the High Gluten stuff, I usually use KYROL (sp?) because I can get it at Costco in 25 lb sacks. I'm probably not as persinckey as I should be. 
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on April 21, 2021, 07:11:06 PM
Thanks for the info gentlemen! That's good to know, if I buy AT, I know I won't be missing  out on any flavor.  Now the question is how am I going to store 50lbs of flour at a rate of making 6 pizzas a week  ;D
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: HansB on April 21, 2021, 07:26:02 PM
These hold 25# each.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leaktite-5-gal-70mil-Food-Safe-Bucket-White-005GFSWH020/300197644

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bucket-Companion-5-gal-and-3-5-gal-Screw-Top-Bucket-Lid-in-Black-LD5GRLBK006/303808738
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on April 21, 2021, 07:32:33 PM
These hold 25# each.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Leaktite-5-gal-70mil-Food-Safe-Bucket-White-005GFSWH020/300197644

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bucket-Companion-5-gal-and-3-5-gal-Screw-Top-Bucket-Lid-in-Black-LD5GRLBK006/303808738
   Excellent!  The second one looks like a winner, thank you, much appreciated
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: 02ebz06 on April 22, 2021, 12:11:28 PM
Now the question is how am I going to store 50lbs of flour at a rate of making 6 pizzas a week  ;D
Here is another option for you  -->    https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00186O0MO/?tag=pmak-20
Will hold a 55lb bag Caputo 00 and is on wheels. I believe it's the 47qt one I use.
It is sold as a Pet food container but is BPA free and the manufacturer (IRIS) told me it is food safe. Which makes sense, as it would have to be safe for pets as well.
I use three of them.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pie Charles on May 11, 2021, 10:07:40 PM
Here's my first attempt on this. Thought it was really good. nice crisp bottom and crust and still airy/light.

Preferment
Flour 40% 120 grams
Water 40% 72 grams
IDY 100% 0.17 grams

Total Formula:
KABF   300 grams
Water  60%
IDY      0.058%
Salt      2.5%
Oil        2.0%

Made the preferment, let rest at RT for 12 hours

Used Kitchen Aid mixer. then cold ferment in wine fridge for 48 hours (about 50F)

baked on baking steel at 550F for about 6mins 30 seconds in top third of oven.

would appreciate any comments, suggestions. Thanks
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pizza Shark on May 12, 2021, 06:31:33 PM
Thanks for the info gentlemen! That's good to know, if I buy AT, I know I won't be missing  out on any flavor.  Now the question is how am I going to store 50lbs of flour at a rate of making 6 pizzas a week  ;D

Easy, when you get your 50# bag take a large Heafty Trash Bag and put the unopened bag of flour down in it.  Then cut open the top of the bag of flour so you can use it and after each use fold the top of the bag of flour over and then twist the top of the Heafty trash bag shut and put a strong twist tie around it.  I go through a 50# bag of flour in about a year and have never had any problem with the flour stored this way for that duration of time.     
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: Pete-zza on May 12, 2021, 07:27:38 PM
Thanks for the info gentlemen! That's good to know, if I buy AT, I know I won't be missing  out on any flavor.  Now the question is how am I going to store 50lbs of flour at a rate of making 6 pizzas a week  ;D
vincento13,

I recently did a forum search on flour storage. You can read what I found at Reply 40 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=68651.msg669614#msg669614

Peter
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: 02ebz06 on May 13, 2021, 09:40:59 AM
vincento13,

I recently did a forum search on flour storage. You can read what I found at Reply 40 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=68651.msg669614#msg669614

Peter

Thanks for the Link(s) Peter.
I have always been doing 3 days in the freezer to kill critters (don't recall where I read that), but Tom said it should be 30 days.
Glad now that I had bought a 2nd freezer to separate baking stuff from meats and such.
Have a dedicated shelf now for flour.  ;D
Fortunately, haven't had any problems.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: vincentoc13 on May 13, 2021, 11:03:40 AM
vincento13,

I recently did a forum search on flour storage. You can read what I found at Reply 40 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=68651.msg669614#msg669614

Peter
  Man, search skills are a beautiful thing!!  Thank you Peter, great read and very informative.

Vince.
Title: Re: Craig's Johnny's Clone
Post by: rp0806 on May 24, 2021, 04:14:49 PM
I went to Johnny's for the first time this weekend. It was honestly some of the best pizza I've ever had. It's a little hard to pinpoint what exactly makes it so great, but the incredible crispiness plays a big role. You can hold a slice from the crust and it won't bend or droop at all. And yet the dough isn't dry or crackery. The sauce and cheese are also really good, but the whole is certainly greater than the sum of the parts.