Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: waltertore on March 04, 2017, 01:19:12 AM

Title: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 04, 2017, 01:19:12 AM
One of our customers left this. We thought it creative and got a picture of it and her.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 04, 2017, 01:40:30 AM
One of our customers left this. We thought it creative and got a picture of it and her.  Walter

Most crusts never get eaten. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 04, 2017, 02:04:00 AM
Most crusts never get eaten.

Ours are rarely not eaten.  Most every customer tells us our crust is the best they have had and never knew crust could be so good and be a highlight of the pizza. We got a little worried but she never eats crust.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Pete-zza on March 04, 2017, 09:29:14 AM
Walter,

I know you don't have to do anything to your pizzas to get your patrons to eat the crusts, but several years ago I read something by Big Dave Ostrander, who was a pizza operator later turned consultant (and a friend of Tom Lehmann), who discussed the problem of getting his customers to eat the crusts. Here is an excerpt that discusses his solution:

At Big Dave's we brushed on melted butter to the crust as it came out of the oven. This shined the crust and gave it a 'just baked buttery flavor'. Since 28% of my gross sales was buffet I wanted to have customers eat all of the crust (carbs) and less protein (cheese-toppings). Many times we would have a customer eat 5-6 slices and leave 5-6 'bones' (uneaten crust) on their plates. I did scientific study??? by dumping the dining room garbage cans in a plastic kiddie pool near the dumpster and counting the 'Bones'. Before we started buttering the crust the bones, we had alot of bones. After we started buttering, the bones were very scarce.

Peter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 04, 2017, 11:05:45 AM
Walter,

I know you don't have to do anything to your pizzas to get your patrons to eat the crusts, but several years ago I read something by Big Dave Ostrander, who was a pizza operator later turned consultant (and a friend of Tom Lehmann), who discussed the problem of getting his customers to eat the crusts. Here is an excerpt that discusses his solution:

At Big Dave's we brushed on melted butter to the crust as it came out of the oven. This shined the crust and gave it a 'just baked buttery flavor'. Since 28% of my gross sales was buffet I wanted to have customers eat all of the crust (carbs) and less protein (cheese-toppings). Many times we would have a customer eat 5-6 slices and leave 5-6 'bones' (uneaten crust) on their plates. I did scientific study??? by dumping the dining room garbage cans in a plastic kiddie pool near the dumpster and counting the 'Bones'. Before we started buttering the crust the bones, we had alot of bones. After we started buttering, the bones were very scarce.

Peter

Thanks for that info Peter.  To me this is an example of how pizza in America has been continually dumbing down for profit over quality.  It is a lot easier to make a low quality crust and then do this or dip it in ranch dressing.  It reminds me of Italian restaurants that have terrible bread but offer really nice butter to ease the pain and soon everyone eats the bread :)   I would say for every 1,000 slices eaten in our shop about 5 are left with the rim.  It is so rare it shocks us like that girl did last night.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waynesize on March 04, 2017, 01:54:00 PM
I am proud to say that my pizzas get fully consumed. Even my young daughters eat the "bones". ;D

Wayne
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 04, 2017, 05:40:14 PM
It's not always a quality issue, you can have the best crust on earth and then destroy it during baking leaving you with a lot of effort and nothing to show for it. Additionally, the Untied States is a country where bread is not traditionally eaten as "bread" anymore, it is consumed as part of a sandwich (keeps the fingers from getting messy) like a hamburger, hot dog, ham and cheese, etc. When you do see bread being eaten it is essentially always with butter or margarine. Do you see the pattern? Pizza crust is just another piece of bread to many folks, especially young people, since they are not used to eating bread just as it is they want something to put on it, be it ranch dressing, dipping oil, butter, or whatever. I think most kids would eat the crust more often if you gave them a side of peanut butter to dip it in! This is one reason why the "cheese-in-the-crust" concept did so well when it was first introduced....crust/bread and cheese = hmmmm, a cheese sandwich. Now we're seeing it being done using bacon where crust/bread and bacon = bacon sandwich, everything goes better with bacon!  :-D
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hodgey1 on March 04, 2017, 05:54:37 PM
I'm internally a pizza Natzi  ::) I keep track of those who don't eat my crust and make mental notes and never invite them back :o thankfully, thats normally just children and I give them a pass ;D

In all seriousness, I believe the outer crust is the best part of a well made pie.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 04, 2017, 07:15:15 PM
I'll Amen that! A great crust/edge, rim, whatever you want to call it is well worth eating, just like great bread. Too many times though I've seen it totally destroyed during baking. When I developed the Hearth Bake Disk I was very selfish and took this into account by putting a non-perforated area around the outer edge of the disk. The dimension of this non-perforated section varies with the disk diameter. It is designed to protect the edge of the crust from the high velocity airflow of the air impingement ovens (the disk is designed to work ONLY in air impingement ovens) thus reducing the amount of bake received by the outer edge/rim and preventing it from turning into a "pizza bone"during the baking process. By the way, I did not get paid, nor do I collect a royalty on any Hearth Bake Disks sold by Lloyd Pans. It was a design change to help owners of air impingement ovens produce pizzas closer to that which many of them used to make in their deck ovens but with the speed and convenience features of the air impingement oven.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rascali on March 05, 2017, 09:22:05 PM
Jeez, in the GOD's if someone did that it would be considered an insult to the cook and a crime against nature.
Nowaday's you chalk it up to 1%ers and low-carb diets...
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 05, 2017, 10:11:27 PM
Jeez, in the GOD's if someone did that it would be considered an insult to the cook and a crime against nature.
Nowaday's you chalk it up to 1%ers and low-carb diets...

Where is the GOD's?  Everyone eats the crust there? ???
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: vtsteve on March 05, 2017, 10:26:19 PM
Good Old Days   :-D
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 05, 2017, 11:31:20 PM
She must be from New York.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 06, 2017, 03:39:46 AM
Good Old Days   :-D

Thanks.  I even Googled it and came up with nothing.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 06, 2017, 10:09:28 AM
My kids get mad if they catch me feeding crust pieces to the dogs.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 06, 2017, 11:46:02 AM
Most crusts never get eaten.

She must be from New York.

Given that there is so much NY pizza sold in NY that is bad, it would not be a shock to learn that many New Yorkers tossed a lot of the crust.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 06, 2017, 12:08:39 PM
I can attest to bad NY slices..ugh. But otherwise, for me, crust is king..SO when my rims are a little too big, oh well,  what a shame LOL :-D 





 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 06, 2017, 12:54:27 PM
Many of the crusts that are left at our place are from people that are diabetic.  They say they can't do without pizza but have to leave the crust or they will have to take an insulin shot - pretty hard core pizza lovers for sure!  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 06, 2017, 01:32:43 PM
Given that there is so much NY pizza sold in NY that is bad, it would not be a shock to learn that many New Yorkers tossed a lot of the crust.

As opposed to the rest of American cities where you are lucky to find 3 pizza shops that aren't horrendous?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 06, 2017, 01:42:39 PM
As opposed to the rest of American cities where you are lucky to find 3 pizza shops that aren't horrendous?

I have not counted.  But, no.

Simply a simple (Occam's Razor) connection between cause and effect for a discussion in the NY Style forum about NY Style pizza. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 06, 2017, 02:59:06 PM
New Yorkers often do not bother with the outer crust for the same reason they don't or can't get past 2 bites of a plain NY bagel with no "shmears". 

NY crusts are not light and bready compared to other styles, they are instead chewy and the rim portion dehydrates significantly in the deck oven because of a combination of being "topless" and generally a low hydration dough (can go down to 55%).  It's give and take bake scenario between undercrust and rim.   A good NY undercrust is sublime with the right balance of sauce and cheese but when the crust goes bald, it falls victim to a kind of whole is greater than the sum of it's parts thing.

That being said, people in NYC are more apt to eating the outer crust if ordering just one slice.  But if working on an extra large 20" pie, you'll generally see a pile of bones.

ps.  There sure are bad representations of the classic NY pizza in the city, which is a function of generational politics and tourism, etc, and the general forum discussions of places like Joe's, Williamsburg and Best Pizza as being standards are actually not and reside within mediocrity..  Still, there are significantly more good NY pizzas here than any other place in the country, just need to filter through all the noise or ask a local native.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 06, 2017, 03:27:32 PM
I have not counted.  But, no.

Simply a simple (Occam's Razor) connection between cause and effect for a discussion in the NY Style forum about NY Style pizza.

A chance to diss NY pizza unnecessarily is what I saw. People don't eat crust in NY cause the places are bad (some are) they don't eat it cause they aren't looking to eat bread. They want the savory part of the pizza, which is the undercrust, sauce, cheese and toppings. This forums obsession with crust just simply isn't shared by the majority of NY pizzerias and pizza eaters. Doesn't make it bad.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 06, 2017, 05:30:15 PM
I simply believe the explanation is simply that the crust is not worthwhile.  You seem to believe differently.  Ok with me.

That is why Walter's customers eat the crust.  And that is the logical connection I made - his crust is good.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on March 06, 2017, 06:10:29 PM
Agreed  ^^^
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 06, 2017, 06:37:59 PM
  I just thought it was a creative way to leave the plate :-D   Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 06, 2017, 07:05:29 PM
I simply believe the explanation is simply that the crust is not worthwhile.  You seem to believe differently.  Ok with me.

That is why Walter's customers eat the crust.  And that is the logical connection I made - his crust is good.

Exactly.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 06, 2017, 07:27:44 PM

As to your generalization that NY rim must not be worthwile (which many would agree), then you would have to conclude that Walter does not make a legit NY slice.

Interesting question/point.

I think the generalization is likely that most NY pizza is not very good - crust, toppings, the whole shebang - as opposed to only the crust aspect.  For example, I know that you have said you have to travel from one borough to another to get pizza that you think is good. 

I have not sampled the wares of pizza places in NYC in a very, very long time, so my view derives from my readings here - especially from those who's opinions are highly respected.

That begs the question of whether Walter's pizza (or anyone else's)  is a "legit" NY Style pizza.  Obviously, that depends on how one would choose to define it.  And, whether others would agree on that as a standard, etc.

My belief is that the prevalence of excellent tasting pizza (in each part and the sum of the parts) has likely been changing towards the worse over time in NYC.  And, the "composition" of the pizza (ingredients, process, etc.) has also changed over time.  Not static, ever changing.  So, my guess is that Walter's pizza is close to what was considered great pizza back in the "good old days."  And, his memory and experience of that is greater than mine (and most others) since he has been in that business, in one role or another, for many decades.   Building on that perspective, his pizza probably exemplifies what legit NY pizza is (or at least was).

Perhaps, the way to approach it, is actually to look at pizza like Walter's pizza (including the crust) and think of it as the standard of "legit" NY pizza and judge the legitimacy of stuff that is sold today with that comparison.

Beyond that, in terms of trying to develop a standard from today's perspectives and experiences in NY - I do not know if there is a basis for a standard worthwhile striving to define and to achieve.  I have my doubts.

**********
In the meantime, too bad the young girl left the doughnut behind - she missed out!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: bregent on March 06, 2017, 07:35:30 PM
Back in the 70's in NY I had a girlfriend that did not eat the crust. That was cool with me, cause I got to eat it!  Never saw anyone else that didn't eat the whole slice. She also didn't like the orange oil, so she dripped hers onto my slice...Yeah!!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hammettjr on March 06, 2017, 07:41:23 PM
...She also didn't like the orange oil, so she dripped hers onto my slice...Yeah!!

You should have married her  :)
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 06, 2017, 08:42:09 PM
Back in the 70's in NY I had a girlfriend that did not eat the crust. That was cool with me, cause I got to eat it!  Never saw anyone else that didn't eat the whole slice. She also didn't like the orange oil, so she dripped hers onto my slice...Yeah!!

That oil is good for lubing the crust.  I generally eat the crust if I'm only having one slice.  If I have a second slice, I've usually had enough food by the time I get to the rim but sometimes dip it.  I rarely eat breadstuff of any sort without condiment, so when I do eat the crust it's an exception to the rule.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 06, 2017, 08:53:54 PM
Interesting question/point.

I think the generalization is likely that most NY pizza is not very good - crust, toppings, the whole shebang - as opposed to only the crust aspect.  For example, I know that you have said you have to travel from one borough to another to get pizza that you think is good. 

I have not sampled the wares of pizza places in NYC in a very, very long time, so my view derives from my readings here - especially from those who's opinions are highly respected.

That begs the question of whether Walter's pizza (or anyone else's)  is a "legit" NY Style pizza.  Obviously, that depends on how one would choose to define it.  And, whether others would agree on that as a standard, etc.

My belief is that the prevalence of excellent tasting pizza (in each part and the sum of the parts) has likely been changing towards the worse over time in NYC.  And, the "composition" of the pizza (ingredients, process, etc.) has also changed over time.  Not static, ever changing.  So, my guess is that Walter's pizza is close to what was considered great pizza back in the "good old days."  And, his memory and experience of that is greater than mine (and most others) since he has been in that business, in one role or another, for many decades.   Building on that perspective, his pizza probably exemplifies what legit NY pizza is (or at least was).

Perhaps, the way to approach it, is actually to look at pizza like Walter's pizza (including the crust) and think of it as the standard of "legit" NY pizza and judge the legitimacy of stuff that is sold today with that comparison.

Beyond that, in terms of trying to develop a standard from today's perspectives and experiences in NY - I do not know if there is a basis for a standard worthwhile striving to define and to achieve.  I have my doubts.

**********
In the meantime, too bad the young girl left the doughnut behind - she missed out!

thanks for the compliment :)  I know Madeline Mastro (90 year old daughter of the NY pizza founder as we know it today), my 90 year old mother from Italy, and a dozen or so over 80 customers we have here that are from NYC, NJ, all say my pizza reminds them of the pies they grew up with. I saw pizza skidding  when I left in the late 70's and on return visits have realized one really needs to know where to go and those places are drying up faster than one would like.  With all that said I really don't care what people say my pies are.  I like them and we have been successful so far with them in satisfying NY/NJ transplants as well as west coast pizza people.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 06, 2017, 09:14:08 PM
With all that said I really don't care what people say my pies are.  I like them and we have been successful so far with them in satisfying NY/NJ transplants as well as west coast pizza people.  Walter

Walter, I must say that your focus is unprecedented. Being in business, that is a must have!
 Everyone has an opinion on what they think that pizza should be, NY or other, and you let naysayers do their thing while you continue to do yours at a top notch level.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 06, 2017, 09:54:33 PM
Walter, I must say that your focus is unprecedented. Being in business, that is a must have!
 Everyone has an opinion on what they think that pizza should be, NY or other, and you let naysayers do their thing while you continue to do yours at a top notch level.

You got it.  Let the people speak and as long as they keep coming back you are doing something right.   Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 06, 2017, 11:11:11 PM
Walter;
Your response reminds me of a question I used to ask my students "How do you tell a successful pizzeria from one that isn't?"
Answer: The successful one will remain in business for more than one year.
When developing a pizza for a new pizzeria one has to keep in mind that they are NOT developing a pizza for then, instead they are developing a pizza for their customers. They will be on the jury and decide if YOU have a good pizza or not.
Here at AJ's we developed a New York style pizza (AJ's New York Pizzeria) but our customer base wanted a very crispy pizza which we gave to them, hey, they were paying for it so they should get what THEY want. Results: Adam has been in business for 9-years now and he has three very successful stores plus voted best pizza by K-State Students, Best Pizza in Manhattan, KS. and just last year one of the three best pizzas in Topeka, KS, where he has one of his stores. They don't do a "Best Pizza" there, instead they do a "One of Three Best Pizzerias" award. To me that's what making a great pizza is all about....being successful and giving your customers what they want.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 06, 2017, 11:17:29 PM
Interesting question/point.

I think the generalization is likely that most NY pizza is not very good - crust, toppings, the whole shebang - as opposed to only the crust aspect.  For example, I know that you have said you have to travel from one borough to another to get pizza that you think is good. 

There is surely bad pizza in NYC, and it mostly resides in the gentrified neighborhoods of Manhattan.  Diluted process, cheapened labor but as with anything there are also exceptional NY slices.   Alot has changed in the past 20 years, and places like Time Square has become a corporate disney land, downtown has gone thru severe dilution.  Soho is a mall.  All ethnic cuisine in Manhattan has diluted, it's not just pizza.  Chinatown is where you get fusion Chicken and brocolli,  Latin cuisine is a joke and there are literally 2 legit Italian deli counters left south of Union Square.  Little Italy is a joke.   Many of the natives have moved out, and replaced with out of state transplants.  But native New York City still exists in the outer boroughs and so do good slice pizzerias, and I doubt many forum members have experienced that having read through the discussions regarding NY pizza limited to Williamsburg, Best, Joe's Pizza etc type places which are mediocre tourist spots, and the dollar joints.  There is certainly quite a bit of ignorance on this forum. 

There are 2300+ NY slice joints in the 5 boroughs.  Only 1/10th of them are in Manhattan.  Surely there are hundreds of bad ones throughout, but there are also hundreds of good ones, a corner shop somewhere on Jamaica Ave,  Queens, or 2 blocks off Arthur Ave in the Bronx, that the media won't ever write about, nor will transplants have the courage to visit because it remains an ungentrified neighborhood.   The kind of rather be mugged by a fratboy on Union Square than someone in Washington Heights/Harlem mentality.

Quote
I have not sampled the wares of pizza places in NYC in a very, very long time, so my view derives from my readings here - especially from those who's opinions are highly respected.

Again, there is quite a bit of ignorance regarding NY slice pizza on this forum, and the sample size of observations on this forum is too small.

Quote
That begs the question of whether Walter's pizza (or anyone else's)  is a "legit" NY Style pizza.  Obviously, that depends on how one would choose to define it.  And, whether others would agree on that as a standard, etc.

I'm 3rd generation New Yorker, my grandfather grew up in Kleindeutschland, which is today's Lower East Side, right at the cusp of Little Italy.  I grew up in Yorkville, UES and ate pizza almost every day.  Millions of other New Yorkers can tell you what is and isn't a NY slice, we never chose what it is, it just always was and all we did was eat it..  I can see your perspective as an onlooker, mostly dependent on other's anecdotal stories and descriptions of what the NY slice might be and how this could be more complicated.

NY slice pizza not complicated..  People who don't know what it is sometimes make it complicated and often define it into what they want it to be.  Like an entrepreneur brainstorming a random pizza formulation for a shop somewhere in America and make one with characteristics that have very little in common with NY Pizza, but still attach a "NY Pizza" stamp on the marketing, there's something wrong with that imo or else we make no distinctions across any pizza styles and then why not call anything we want, Neapolitan Pizza or "VPN" too.


Quote
My belief is that the prevalence of excellent tasting pizza (in each part and the sum of the parts) has likely been changing towards the worse over time in NYC.  And, the "composition" of the pizza (ingredients, process, etc.) has also changed over time.  Not static, ever changing.  So, my guess is that Walter's pizza is close to what was considered great pizza back in the "good old days."  And, his memory and experience of that is greater than mine (and most others) since he has been in that business, in one role or another, for many decades.   Building on that perspective, his pizza probably exemplifies what legit NY pizza is (or at least was).

Depends on who you talk to and keep in mind NJ isn't NYC.  The NY slice I know at the old joints haven't changed a thing.  But then there are now the Albanian owned places, and other immigrants making NY pizzas with no concept of the NY-Italian heritage, the same people who own Subways sandwich shops and the $1 joints.  And past 20 years, you had advent of hybrid pies, made with different formulations, ovens, cold fermentations, etc  (the Roberta's, Juliana's, Lucali's, Nicoletta, etc) to satiate hipsters and midwest transplants who grew up identifying with bready pizza. 

And then there are some who will delve into stories of the origin of the NY slice as a reference point to authenticity.  Some mention Mastro, then there are those within the Ray's Pizza lineage and Ira Nevin/Bakers Pride and mob heritage.  Mastros was a franchisee/commissary model with frozen dough delivered to stores and then there are many independent family owned operators who never heard of Mastro and made their own dough and sauce.   Who invented the deck oven?  Who knows and who cares.   Ira Nevin actually accused Blodgett/Mastro of having stolen his deck oven invention. The NY slice could have just been born of a collective movement of hundreds if not thousands of people converging into a thing.   That said, most New Yorkers have no clue of the history, and could give 2 sh*ts but know what is and isn't a NY slice.

Quote
Perhaps, the way to approach it, is actually to look at pizza like Walter's pizza (including the crust) and think of it as the standard of "legit" NY pizza and judge the legitimacy of stuff that is sold today with that comparison.

Beyond that, in terms of trying to develop a standard from today's perspectives and experiences in NY - I do not know if there is a basis for a standard worthwhile striving to define and to achieve.  I have my doubts.

I don't think anyone can fully understand a cuisine or culture unless having been immersed in it.  That said my standard could be one of many pizzerias here, like a 50+ year old place like Margherita in Jamaica Queens or John and Joe's Pizzeria in the Bronx.  The NY slice is archetypal, iconic, sacred.  And what a New Yorker can probably do better is tell you what ISN'T NY pizza.  Deviate too far from the original, or eat it with knife and fork, they will haunt you to no end.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Pete-zza on March 07, 2017, 09:11:37 AM
Here at AJ's we developed a New York style pizza (AJ's New York Pizzeria) but our customer base wanted a very crispy pizza which we gave to them, hey, they were paying for it so they should get what THEY want. Results: Adam has been in business for 9-years now and he has three very successful stores plus voted best pizza by K-State Students, Best Pizza in Manhattan, KS. and just last year one of the three best pizzas in Topeka, KS, where he has one of his stores. They don't do a "Best Pizza" there, instead they do a "One of Three Best Pizzerias" award. To me that's what making a great pizza is all about....being successful and giving your customers what they want.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
A while back, I saw an article featuring several very good pizzas across the country. I usually don't pay much attention to such articles, since they seem to appear in one form or another about once every week, and our members tend to ignore such articles, but I happened to notice that AJ's was on the list. So, because of Tom's affiliation with AJ's, I saved the photo figuring that I might want to post it sometime. It is posted below.

Peter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 10:01:13 AM
Quote
As to your generalization that NY rim must not be worthwile (which many would agree), then you would have to conclude that Walter does not make a legit NY slice.

Taking things to their logical extreme, you would also have to conclude that a "legit NY slice" is not "pizza."
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hammettjr on March 07, 2017, 10:07:05 AM
...the sample size of observations [of NY slice pizza] on this forum is too small.
...

I think that's fair. Probably the best thing I can do to improve my pizzas is to get out and sample some. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2017, 10:50:08 AM
Taking things to their logical extreme, you would also have to conclude that a "legit NY slice" is not "pizza."

How are you defining "pizza"?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: lesagemike on March 07, 2017, 10:55:02 AM
The only time I ever saw the pizza doughnut was as a college student in 1980. The pharmacist I was interning under was mad about other people repeatedly eating all the occasional free drug company lunch before our lunch break. He,myself and his assistant ate an entire large Godfather's pizza except the crust under his direction (Which was if you eat any crust your in big trouble). I thought I was going to throw up as we each had to eat a lot of pizza. He then took the box with the doughnut to the main pharmacy and told them it was free pizza. They look of happiness to sadness was legendary.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 11:26:43 AM
How are you defining "pizza"?

Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 11:28:25 AM
And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that as an absolute, rather that if you evaluate in absolutes as in the quote I cited above, you have to be evaluated with absolutes.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 07, 2017, 11:45:00 AM
Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."

Anything "style" attached is generally a derivative form or an abstraction unless if you're in Italy, where they blatantly steal and rename it with fancy Italian words, ie "Pizza Romana Al Taglio" after an Italian food marketer visited NYC and found the Grandma pie.

And nobody in NYC says, "hey dude, let's get some NY style pizza"

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: thezaman on March 07, 2017, 12:03:22 PM
  pizza bones can be very boring. if you were to offer some extra virgin olive oil the leftovers would go down dramatically.that's what i do at home.
.
 if i can find a pizzeria that offers that or chili oil for the bones i would patronize the pizzeria, providing the rest of the pizza was good. example motorino's with chili oil. pizzeria  fresca NYC with evoo left on every table, another option is a hot honey.
 
   not a slice pro and have had walters pizza,i would not leave a crumb behind. his dough had that toasted malt flavor that i taste in what i perceive as good NY dough
   
   if i see a bone at my joint i always offer something to dip. when i see crusts i get uneasy.,that is why i teach my people to stretch for a 1/4 inch crust after baking. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 12:03:39 PM
And nobody in NYC says, "hey dude, let's get some NY style pizza"

Granted, of course 99.999% of the time when someone in NYC says "hey dude, let's get some pizza," they are talking about neither "pizza" nor a "legitimate NY slice."
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2017, 12:08:41 PM
Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."

The use of the word "pizza" to describe a flat bread with toppings dates back to the 10th century, 600 years before the introduction of tomatoes to italy.  Wouldn't Neapolitan just be a "style" milepost along the evolutionary path?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 12:14:28 PM
The use of the word "pizza" to describe a flat bread with toppings dates back to the 10th century, 600 years before the introduction of tomatoes to italy.  Wouldn't Neapolitan just be a "style" milepost along the evolutionary path?

If you like, though there are plenty of examples of drawing an objective or arbitrary or dividing line between ancient and modern.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 12:15:50 PM
Again, my point is not to start a discussion of what is and is not pizza, and my example was only intended to be that - an example - of the problems of jumping straight to absolutes.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2017, 12:27:36 PM
I  don't want a VPN for the NY slice.  I'm happy with a Jacobellis v. Ohio approach.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 07, 2017, 12:32:22 PM
Here in the mid-west we just say "Hey, let's go out for some pizza". This is almost universally followed by "Where do you want to go?" This is then followed (by the person suggesting going out for pizza) with a suggestion for going to their favorite pizzeria. Point is: Everybody doesn't like the same kind/type of pizza so they go to the place that best meets their needs whether it be quality of food or quality of service (ideally both) but even convenience enters into the picture occasionally too. Pizza did not achieve its great popularity and longevity by being stagnant, instead, it has and continues to evolve as our American tastes continue to change. It wasn't too terribly long ago that you couldn't even give a deep-dish pizza away in St.Louis (thin crust reigned supreme) and in Chicago, any pizza with char on the crust was considered to be burnt and promptly sent back to the kitchen to be baked "correctly", we all know how that turned out. I think it is nice and even interesting to know something about the heritage and ancestry of different kinds of pizzas but to get hung-up absolutes is beyond my meager comprehension, and when it comes to pizza we eat what we like, what tastes good to US at any one point in time. I say this because over time our tastes do change and I for one am thankful that there are enough different "styles" of pizza out there to meet my changing tastes. But at the end of the day, I'm still attracted back to the Chicago thin crust pizzas, not because they're go great (they are very good indeed) but because when I'm enjoying one it brings back a lot of memories of another time (the word for it is nostalgia), and once I've eaten my fill, I snap out of it and go back to my current favorite pizza which for right now is the AJ's #6 (Doctor's Delight) and even though my DNA is all over it I'll eventually tire of it and move on to something different which will , in turn, make me appreciate it all that much more when I go back and have another #6 after being away from it for a time. That's how the world works.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 07, 2017, 12:52:16 PM
I  don't want a VPN for the NY slice.  I'm happy with a Jacobellis v. Ohio approach.

I shall not today attempt further to define pizza, but I know what's not pizza when I see it.  ;D
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2017, 01:07:11 PM
But at the end of the day, I'm still attracted back to the Chicago thin crust pizzas, not because they're go great (they are very good indeed) but because when I'm enjoying one it brings back a lot of memories of another time (the word for it is nostalgia)

But what if the Chicago thins became unrecognizable and no longer brought back those memories?  That's what we don't want to lose with the NY slice. These things stir up nostalgia because they were pervasive enough and loved enough to merit "traditional" or classic" status.  I certainly wouldn't advocate stagnation. But it's important to preserve worthwhile traditions.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 07, 2017, 01:24:26 PM
Well said, Tom - thank you.

In reading through this thread, I traced back to the funny doughnut that the girl left behind.   Walter's product (be it "legit" or not, as defined by a passionate member) has great crust.  It must be that, not withstanding that Walter hails from NJ, that a great NY Style pizza can be had with a great tasting crust.

That is my preference - if I am going to eat a pizza that is NY Style, it is better with a great crust than with a crust that is not very tasty in its own right.  If it is not legit, by the standard that one member is advancing, then I do not care.  Striving to achieve something that is not as good because it better meets some definition is not something that is worth spending time on.

When I have a NY Style pizza, it triggers my positive (or not) memories and I can assess if it is like the good pizza from "back home and back when."  Beyond that, it becomes uninteresting and/or not  helpful (if not destructive) to debate legitimacy to the point of it becoming a near-religious argument (e.g. "sacred").

I also do not care if my pizza is made by an Albanian or any other immigrant.  NY is famous for being the ever-evolving and changing ethnic/geographic/religious mix that it is and has been.  We are all transplants, even the hipsters and midwesterners.  I care about the product, not the ethnicity or background of the owner or cook.

I do not eat much NY Style pizza anymore.  It (as I think about it) is mostly not available in these parts and I enjoy making different types and evolving my own type.  As Tom described, different styes (or "gasp", variations within a style) can be a positive.

If others wish to pursue a nirvana of a NY Style slice with specific attributes so that it can gain the stamp of "legit", that is fine with me.  But, the debate about "legit vs. not legit" sometimes looks like a goal unto itself as opposed to a means to an end.   Go there if you like.  Not for me nor do I think it needs to be imposed on others.



Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: The Dough Doctor on March 07, 2017, 01:43:06 PM
JKB;
Speaking just for myself, it has changed but not so much that I can't relate back to it, and if it did change to the point where I couldn't relate to it, I'd just relegate it to past memory. Much like I do when I go back to the old farmstead and see the house, barn, milk shed and outbuildings while in reality I'm seeing houses, houses, and more houses (it's a subdivision now), but I won't let that rob me of the memories. Then I find my way to Ed and Joe's Pizzeria in Tinley Park, Illinois. Even if the pizza has changed somewhat, the name is still the same and that has to count for something when you're grasping for straws.
Nuff said.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 07, 2017, 01:43:22 PM


That is my preference - if I am going to eat a pizza that is NY Style, it is better with a great crust than with a crust that is not very tasty in its own right.  If it is not legit, by the standard that one member is advancing, then I do not care.  Striving to achieve something that is not as good because it better meets some definition is not something that is worth spending time on.

The undercrust and texture of a good NY slice is simply amazing and a classic.  The thin crust put it on the map.  There is simply nothing like it in the world.  The trade off is having a rim which tends to dehydrate because it is exposed bare to a low ceiling gas deck and nature of a low hydrated high protein dough.  To make a light edible rim as a focal point for consumption, you're most likely having to make formulation and workflow changes and you then sacrifice the quality of the undercrust.  This seems to be the point that you are missing.

Most better slice joints try to minimze the outer rim size as much as possible and sauce and cheese as far as possible.  They'd go all the way, but then you'd have no handle to hold it.


Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HansB on March 07, 2017, 02:10:30 PM
  There is simply nothing like it in the world. 


To you.

I like many styles of pizza but when I think of pizza I think of what I grew up eating. As Harry thinks NY is the best, ask a those in Chicago or Napoli you'll get a different answer.

A couple of years ago I was purchasing a vintage instrument at the shop next door to Kesté. Having just eaten there I mentioned to the guys there that they were fortunate having great pizza right next door. They replied that they don't care for it and always eat at John's across the street. In my opinion it's all what you grew up with.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 07, 2017, 02:14:17 PM
To you.

No, it's actually true.  No other category of pizza makes an undercrust like that.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 07, 2017, 02:49:19 PM
I like many styles of pizza but when I think of pizza I think of what I grew up eating. As Harry thinks NY is the best, ask a those in Chicago or Napoli you'll get a different answer.

A couple of years ago I was purchasing a vintage instrument at the shop next door to Kesté. Having just eaten there I mentioned to the guys there that they were fortunate having great pizza right next door. They replied that they don't care for it and always eat at John's across the street. In my opinion it's all what you grew up with.

Has nothing to do with what's the best pizza, surely do not need another tangent.  Was commenting on what makes certain pizzas unique and special and the importance of making clear distinctions between categories.  The more categories the better.  If someone creates something new, great.  Just that a Philly cheesesteak is not a roastbeef sandwich nor is it corned beef on rye.



Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 07, 2017, 02:58:05 PM
........To make a light edible rim as a focal point for consumption, you're most likely having to make formulation and workflow changes and you then sacrifice the quality of the undercrust.....
Or you dedicate yourself to making both aspects the best they can be and watch other people my age and older gets teary eyed as they reminisce about how good it used to be instead of the flavorless cheese/grease transport system it has become.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 07, 2017, 03:51:17 PM
All pizza crust is inferior without something on it.  Does anyone here eat significant quantities of plain, dry bread?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 07, 2017, 03:55:54 PM
All pizza crust is inferior without something on it.  Does anyone here eat significant quantities of plain, dry bread?
Of course, but a superior crust with added aromatics and juices from pizza toppings is extra good. I used to dip my crusts into an OO garlic knot dip until I figured out how to not kill by crust flavor on my blackstone.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: mitchjg on March 07, 2017, 05:39:16 PM
All pizza crust is inferior without something on it.  Does anyone here eat significant quantities of plain, dry bread?

I understand your point and agree with it - that bread is better when it is not plain dry bread and has a little butter or oil or whatever.

But, that is directional in nature and not really a justification or rationale for thinking that "most crusts never get eaten" (Reply #1). 

I decided to do  some math to determine how much crust we are actually talking about in a slice.

Assumptions:

18 inch pizza
pizza 0.08 thickness factor
rim width 1 inch (1/2 inch on each side of the pie)
rim thickness factor is 2 X overall thickness factor = 0.16 since the rim may be left thicker than the rest of the real estate when the dough is opened
pie is cut into 8 slices
pizza crust loses about 15% of weight after baking

Further, my assumption is that the reader would agree that I am being "conservative" in that, especially with the assumptions of rim thickness being 2 X and the rim width being 1 inch, that I am going "high" with a calculation of the amount of crust that is in a slice.

With that:

The area of an 18" pie is 254.47 inches.  The area of a 17 inch pie (1" less to allow for the rim) is 226.98 inches.  So, the area of the rim is the difference, being 27.49 inches.  With a thickness factor of 0.16 (twice 0.08), the amount of dough is 4.40 ounces.  Allowing for the 15% loss during baking, the amount of dough is then 3.74 ounces. 

Finally, slicing the pie into 8 slices yields 0.47 ounces per slice.

Now, if you agree I was conservative about this, then perhaps we can assess this by cutting the rim width total to 1/2 inch (note that Larry said he teaches his folks to stretch a rim to 1/4 inch on each "side" and HH73 says the rim size is minimized as much as possible.  So, I am still going towards the high end.

That changes the rim calculation to be the difference between a 17 1/2 inch pie and an 18 inch pie.  Sparing you the details, the calculation yields an amount of 0.24 ounces per slice.

So, call it somewhere around 1/4 to 1/2 an ounce of crust per slice.  My guess is most people eat 1 - 3 slices depending on whether it is lunch, dinner, big appetite, etc.  At most likely well under 1 ounce of crust, that is a long way from someone eating "significant quantities of plain, dry bread."

My contention remains that the biggest reason any pizza crust is leftover is driven by how appetizing the crust is - and that is not black and white.  So, when Walter, for example, makes a pie his customers eat the crust.  It is tasty and there really is not that much to start with.

If you want to make different calculation assumptions, let me know and I will put it in the Excel spreadsheet. 

If you have a different conclusion on the "why" some pizza crust is completely eaten, while for others "most crusts never get eaten" (Reply #1), please tell me how that jives with the amount of crust that is actually being discussed.

We're not talking about a lot of crust here - that is why I think it is about tastiness in crust.



Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 05:43:40 PM
All pizza crust is inferior without something on it.  Does anyone here eat significant quantities of plain, dry bread?

I wouldn't call it dry but my typical bread is focaccia which I usually eat plain. It's great.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 07, 2017, 05:52:04 PM
I wouldn't call it dry but my typical bread is focaccia which I usually eat plain. It's great.

Must be an east/west coast difference.  They eliminated the complimentary bread baskets at most restaurants in NYC.  They're available as a bread course for a price and hardly anyone orders it..  And not so much about cost cutting, but people here don't really eat plain bread rolls and the restaurant end up throwing out alot.

It is known that SF has a more established bread culture.  Not much sourdough bread dipping in oil here in NYC. 

 
Title: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 07, 2017, 06:10:53 PM
I don't think most people eat plain bread, Im probably the outlier; but I don't think my Focaccia needs an oil dip, I use like 10% EVOO in it.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: sfnatoli on March 07, 2017, 06:21:53 PM
When I was a youngster in Northern NJ back in the 50's we would go out for pizza every Friday night, and the only thing I would eat was the crusts.  I hated cheese and tomato sauce so everyone else at the table just gave their bones to me. That pizza doughnut at Walters just brings back funny memories, and I would eat it in a minute.  Luckily I eventually grew to like the whole pie.  Those pics that HarryHaller73 keeps posting look exactly like the NY pies I remember from way back then.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 07, 2017, 07:11:40 PM
  pizza bones can be very boring. if you were to offer some extra virgin olive oil the leftovers would go down dramatically.that's what i do at home.
.
 if i can find a pizzeria that offers that or chili oil for the bones i would patronize the pizzeria, providing the rest of the pizza was good. example motorino's with chili oil. pizzeria  fresca NYC with evoo left on every table, another option is a hot honey.
 
   not a slice pro and have had walters pizza,i would not leave a crumb behind. his dough had that toasted malt flavor that i taste in what i perceive as good NY dough
   
   if i see a bone at my joint i always offer something to dip. when i see crusts i get uneasy.,that is why i teach my people to stretch for a 1/4 inch crust after baking.

Being open 13 months now this was the first time we saw so many crusts.  All told we have so few crusts that it is surprising when we see one left.  Often others at the table will eat what their dinner mates leave.  So no oil, honey, ranch, needed here -  I am sticking to my NJ roots :)  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: parallei on March 07, 2017, 07:57:12 PM
Must be an east/west coast difference.  They eliminated the complimentary bread baskets at most restaurants in NYC.  They're available as a bread course for a price and hardly anyone orders it..  And not so much about cost cutting, but people here don't really eat plain bread rolls and the restaurant end up throwing out alot.

It is known that SF has a more established bread culture.  Not much sourdough bread dipping in oil here in NYC. 

 

That is interesting.  Even in Denver at a decent restaurant, you can expect some decent bread, though most of it is not baked in house.  In Europe, Denver, or SF I've never heard of a "bread course".  Anything for a buck I guess......as you know, bread can be great.  It is a pity.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 07, 2017, 09:16:50 PM
The undercrust and texture of a good NY slice is simply amazing and a classic.  The thin crust put it on the map.  There is simply nothing like it in the world.  The trade off is having a rim which tends to dehydrate because it is exposed bare to a low ceiling gas deck and nature of a low hydrated high protein dough.  To make a light edible rim as a focal point for consumption, you're most likely having to make formulation and workflow changes and you then sacrifice the quality of the undercrust.  This seems to be the point that you are missing.

Most better slice joints try to minimze the outer rim size as much as possible and sauce and cheese as far as possible.  They'd go all the way, but then you'd have no handle to hold it.

Harry, are you saying that the basic point of the pizza is to make a dough substantial enough and with the texture to hold the sauce and cheese and whatever toppings are on it?

To me that sort of sounds as if it's all about eating the sauce and cheese and having the texture and chew of the under crust only to keep it there. If there was as much focus on making a flavorful crust then from slice tip to the bones I don't think there are many that get thrown out. No matter what the hydration and workflow (to a reasonable limit of course). A well developed dough will digest very well also. Many pizzeria operators are very one dimensional with their dough; salt, sugar, oil and plenty of yeast to rise overnight without much attention to building great flavor in the dough that way they can shove it in the oven and grab your money. Even if they are using top shelf sauce and cheese ingredients. Why not give attention to the dough flavor and not just texture, thickness factor etc? I just think it's a bit odd I guess.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 08, 2017, 06:45:40 AM
You can't make a great NY pie without a great crust.

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 08, 2017, 07:54:52 AM
Harry, are you saying that the basic point of the pizza is to make a dough substantial enough and with the texture to hold the sauce and cheese and whatever toppings are on it?

To me that sort of sounds as if it's all about eating the sauce and cheese and having the texture and chew of the under crust only to keep it there. If there was as much focus on making a flavorful crust then from slice tip to the bones I don't think there are many that get thrown out. No matter what the hydration and workflow (to a reasonable limit of course). A well developed dough will digest very well also. Many pizzeria operators are very one dimensional with their dough; salt, sugar, oil and plenty of yeast to rise overnight without much attention to building great flavor in the dough that way they can shove it in the oven and grab your money. Even if they are using top shelf sauce and cheese ingredients. Why not give attention to the dough flavor and not just texture, thickness factor etc? I just think it's a bit odd I guess.

NY pizza undercrust is about it's unique texture and thinness  and providing the perfect counterpoint to strong Sicilian flavors.   It is chewy, and has a light crisp and what makes the slice iconic.   

Food is about balance.  Due to the stronger flavors in NY pizza, the sauce, the cheese, the pecorino, the parmigianno, the crust is made as a textural counterpoint with just the minimum of salt and needs to balance with the other flavors.  Same applies to NY Italian hero sandwiches, or the NY bagel.  The famous NY bagel is rarely eaten by itself, instead paired with a myriad of spreads and fillings and the bagel provides the jaw-numbing chew that makes it a classic.  Order an Italian hero sandwich here in boroughs with Sfilatino Italian bread which is amazingly crusty with a soft chew inside, it is perfect when paired with the strong Italian sandwich ingredients.  But try eating the Sfilatino alone, you won't eat much of it, and meant to be flavor neutral.  Same for spaghetti noodles.

In SF, you're more apt to finding "flavorful" sourdough rolls.  They are generally eaten alone or paired with some olives or oil as a reprise, or light charcuterie and if made into sandwiches, matched with lighter ingredients, ie grilled chicken and mayonaisse, and not the hot soppressata, pickled olive paste, onions, oregano, and a ton of oil and vinegar you find in NY heros.

My observation in reading this forum is there are more crustophiles here who are crust-flavor obsessed, and then observe the general minimalist approach to their sauce, ie open a can of crushed tomatoes with a little salt and that's all,  wheras a NY sauce is more complex flavor along with the cheese mix.  You find your balance one way or another. 

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 08, 2017, 08:31:12 PM
I agree with your sentiment Harry as I have been in and around New York quite often due to family living there and have tasted many wonderful things that the boroughs have to offer (in particular Flushing and Corona Queens). I just think that with pizza, crust is (or should be) much more than just texture and structure. I am a believer in creating flavor in every layer of a dish, including pizza. For me that means creating flavor in the crust and not solely by means of additional salt. It could be old dough, preferment or whatever else one desires within reason. Sauce does not take a back seat either and neither do the cheese or toppings. If everything tastes very good yet is still in balance then mission accomplished. I don't know if that means that my efforts are no longer NY efforts.

A flavorful crust need not be overpowering, it can be complex yet subtle.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 08, 2017, 10:34:53 PM
It's all about balance that you prefer. Harry is right - half this forum seems to use crushed tomato with some sea salt for sauce. To me that is bland and boring and doesn't develop the flavor of a pie properly, but yall would say the same about NY crust, which has flavor, but it's main objective is texture and to blend seemlessly with the zesty tomato sauce and salty cheeses/meats. Again, preference. People in NY don't throw crust out cause it sucks, they throw it out cause they like sauce and cheese more. No need to fill up on dry bread when you have an 18" savory pie to finish.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hodgey1 on March 11, 2017, 01:20:40 PM
NY pizza undercrust is about it's unique texture and thinness  and providing the perfect counterpoint to strong Sicilian flavors.   It is chewy, and has a light crisp and what makes the slice iconic.

Harry, the photo of the slice you posted, looks amazing. Do you know what shop that was made by or is that your creation? Either way, I want a slice and want to reduce my TF to more target that thickness!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 01:44:19 PM
Harry, the photo of the slice you posted, looks amazing. Do you know what shop that was made by or is that your creation? Either way, I want a slice and want to reduce my TF to more target that thickness!

That is from Margherita Pizza on Jamaica Ave, Queens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8W1rtdG06Q&t=223s
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 11, 2017, 02:12:41 PM
That is from Margherita Pizza on Jamaica Ave, Queens.

I love these kinds of videos. Something tells me that I'd have the same reaction as that guy, the pizza looks legit except I think I see them using a screen. I've never been a fan of that.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 02:34:44 PM
I love these kinds of videos. Something tells me that I'd have the same reaction as that guy, the pizza looks legit except I think I see them using a screen. I've never been a fan of that.

They use a fine woven flexible metal mesh product, makes no screenmarks on the bottom.  I am researching what it is but can't find it anywhere, must be custom made or from different era.
 
I would generally agree that screens have a stigma since they're used in chains through conveyors, but I can attest to their crust being excellent. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: PizzaJerk on March 11, 2017, 02:46:27 PM
They use a fine woven flexible metal mesh product, makes no screenmarks on the bottom.  I am researching what it is but can't find it anywhere, must be custom made or from different era.
 
I would generally agree that screens have a stigma since they're used in chains through conveyors, but I can attest to their crust being excellent.

I agree, screen use has always been seen as a crutch and only used by unskilled labor in chain joints, at least in my eyes. I probably sound stubborn on the screen topic and I know a place like this must use them mostly for the less bench flour aspect but I think that a highly skilled maker will be able to use next to no flour on the peel and the pie will still slide right off. To me, screen use is for emergency only (slowing down an out of balance bottom crust perhaps is a good example). However, that being said, it does not take away the fact that this place is packed, has been doing it's thing for many years and the pie looks legit. I'd love to stop by one day when I'm in the city for a slice. It's on the list.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hodgey1 on March 11, 2017, 03:38:46 PM
That is from Margherita Pizza on Jamaica Ave, Queens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8W1rtdG06Q&t=223s


Harry,  Have you been successful duplicating that pie? If so, please share the forumla and work flow.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 03:56:17 PM


Harry,  Have you been successful duplicating that pie? If so, please share the forumla and work flow.

It's "Queens-style", you'll find similar pizza at Lucia, Amore, etc which is basically about excess and what local demographic prefers.  There is no such thing as "low-fat", "low-cal" or "organic" in Queens.  It is the style of the common working man.  What many native New Yorkers I've spoken to remember pizza being like between the 60's-80's.

These pizzerias generally a typical 55-58% NY dough stretched with minimal rims.   14+ oz Grande whole milk mozzarella and 10+ oz sauce for 18" pie.  Longer, lower temp bake at 500 is what they do around 8-10 minutes, crusts are never burnt, very little char.. uniform golden brown undercrust, the longer lower temp bake really does something magical to the cheese, the fats gently roll off and nice browning.

The standout is the sauce.  Most pizzerias make a decent crust, but they pay alot more attention to sauce flavor.  You will find more romano and oil in the sauce. 

These topics have been discussed in various threads in the NY style category if search.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 03:59:33 PM
Here's a picture of their undercrust I saved a few weeks ago. It's a very light brown color, like a sub roll, not dark like artisan bread. I'm not quite sure how to get such a light brown color other than a fairly low temp bake as its not spotty enough to indicate a quick bake. I've gotten very even screen bakes before, but it's always darker.

Harry,

Do these pies ever see the deck or do they spend the entire bake on the mesh? The mesh looks hand trimmed to me, probably custom.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 04:00:54 PM
Here's a picture of their undercrust I saved a few weeks ago. It's a very light brown color, like a sub roll, not dark like artisan bread. I'm not quite sure how to get such a light brown color other than a fairly low temp bake as its not spotty enough to indicate a quick bake. I've gotten very even screen bakes before, but it's always darker.

Harry,

Do these pies ever see the deck or do they spend the entire bake on the mesh? The mesh looks hand trimmed to me, probably custom.

They are undocked from mesh and finished on the stone.  Lower and slower.  The undercrust has a very nice crisp.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 04:04:18 PM
Here's an example of one of my screen bakes which I would consider very evenly browned, but it's many shades darker than that golden crisp color. Should I assume they are not using sugar in their dough?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 04:09:14 PM
Here's an example of one of my screen bakes which I would consider very evenly browned, but it's many shades darker than that golden crisp color. Should I assume they are not using sugar in their dough?

Yeah try lowering sugar and bake it lower temp.  Are you baking the screen on stone? or on a rack?
The mesh probably has alot to do with the lighter color.  Notice the cheese is browned well.  Often you see the other way around at pizzerias, the undercrust is dark and the cheese is pale.

Also, these older joints use very little bench flour. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hodgey1 on March 11, 2017, 04:24:58 PM
The standout is the sauce.  Most pizzerias make a decent crust, but they pay alot more attention to sauce flavor.  You will find more romano and oil in the sauce. 

Do have a sauce recipe to share?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hammettjr on March 11, 2017, 04:27:27 PM
That is from Margherita Pizza on Jamaica Ave, Queens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8W1rtdG06Q&t=223s

The slices look so good.

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 11, 2017, 04:41:04 PM
They use a fine woven flexible metal mesh product, makes no screenmarks on the bottom.  I am researching what it is but can't find it anywhere, must be custom made or from different era.

Those look homemade to me. Look how different the ones in the oven look from each other. It some sort of wire mesh that's cut by hand and then folded by hand over at the edge.

Looks like the pull it out from under the pie mid-bake sometime?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 04:45:33 PM
Those look homemade to me. Look how different the ones in the oven look from each other. It some sort of wire mesh that's cut by hand and then folded by hand over at the edge.

Looks like the pull it out from under the pie mid-bake sometime?

Yeah and they're almost metal fabric like, unlike typical screen.  They undock from the mesh and finish on the stone. 
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 11, 2017, 04:52:34 PM
Here you go: https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/square-pizza-screen_60373903695.html

Whatever weave pattern and mesh size you want.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 11, 2017, 05:11:07 PM
McMaster Carr and Grainger were staples for ss mesh in my pharma days.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 11, 2017, 05:48:25 PM
The slices look so good.

Check out their old school menu.  Anchovy pie.

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: bregent on March 11, 2017, 06:25:01 PM
Check out their old school menu.  Anchovy pie.

Hmmm. Who orders a meatball hero without mozzarella :)
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: jkb on March 11, 2017, 06:52:55 PM
Hmmm. Who orders a meatball hero without mozzarella :)

Nobody. That's why they make the $1.50 upcharge look like it's your decision.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 11, 2017, 06:56:03 PM
I'm a firm believer that places with simplified small menus serve better food. That menu is great. I really like Walter's menu too. KISS!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2017, 12:26:41 PM
To be honest I don't care what people call my pizza as we continue to get great reviews from young and old NY/NJ people as well as west coasters.  Last night we sold out of dough with our last customer and our business has doubled since opening a year ago.  I think of my pizzas as a combination of the best NY/NJ pies I ate growing up.  We got another wonderful Yelp review last night.  It is very moving to see people take the time to write such heartfelt reviews in todays world where people are relying more on icons and 1 sentence responses for written communication.  Walter

I haven't reviewed a place in a long time now but if any of you walks into this place, you will leave with the need to tell all the World about it, too.  The second one walks through the doors of this true Mom & Pop operation you feel the positive vibes; you quickly understand that this place is NOTHING BUT positive.  Go ahead....I dare you to even think of one negative thing about it!  Look at all the posts on this blog.  Who can say anything bad?  When you walk up to the counter, employees (and you'll immediately love them) warmly welcomes you and get you situated.  However, the first thing they warn us about is that they're out of small thin crusts so all they have left is large size pizzas (Ah, FINALLY, something negative I can say).  Problem is, it's just the wife and me.  Well, we really want to try this pizza so we order the large with intention of bringing some home for later.  Anyway, you're part of the phenomenon as soon as you walk in.  It's not hard to tell that this place is pizza with a cause.  I could go on forever about this part of the business but, well, I did come here for some pizza.

Ah yes, the pizza.  You can smell the authenticity from outside the restaurant and then you enter and hear them yelling orders and statuses back and forth in the tiny kitchen space.  You can see the perfectly browned crust of their pies as they come out of the oven and anticipate that you've made the right decision to give this place a shot.  Yeah, they do crust right.  Perfectly thin & crispy on the outside, little bit of chew once you take that first bite.  On their pizza oven, there must be a setting labeled "perfect".  Don't know how else to describe it.  You see them pouring sauce on the pie from the bucket as they make it and wonder, "What's the secret to that part?"  Then you taste it and realize....there may be no secret except for the use of great canned tomatoes.  Not sure if they added a darned thing to it but somehow, it's in perfect harmony with everything else on the pie.  I could say the same for the amount of cheese and all of the 4 toppings I ordered on ours.  By the way, I recommend that you make sure sausage is one of the toppings on yours.  It's made in-house and delicious.

Oh, and about that "out of small pizza" problem.  Turns out my petit 5'2" wife and I polished off the whole large pie and left nothing for my teenage son at home despite that we promised him we were coming home with leftovers.  We ended up having to get him In-N-Out.  It was that good.

Overall, this place is a small, hidden dive that serves great, authentic, New York style pizza, arguably the best.  Service is friendly, prompt and sincere.  I encourage you all to eat in and take in the art, the employees and the whole vibe to truly understand what this great business is all about.  Its name is appropriate:  When you leave, you'll be smiling because you just ate the best pizza in the Truckee Meadows.  You'll be Smiling with Hope because you've just been reminded that there are still good people left in this World!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Loarina Vega on March 12, 2017, 12:44:23 PM
To be honest I don't care what people call my pizza as we continue to get great reviews from young and old NY/NJ people as well as west coasters.  Last night we sold out of dough with our last customer and our business has doubled since opening a year ago.  I think of my pizzas as a combination of the best NY/NJ pies I ate growing up.  We got another wonderful Yelp review last night.  It is very moving to see people take the time to write such heartfelt reviews in todays world where people are relying more on icons and 1 sentence responses for written communication.  Walter

I haven't reviewed a place in a long time now but if any of you walks into this place, you will leave with the need to tell all the World about it, too.  The second one walks through the doors of this true Mom & Pop operation you feel the positive vibes; you quickly understand that this place is NOTHING BUT positive.  Go ahead....I dare you to even think of one negative thing about it!  Look at all the posts on this blog.  Who can say anything bad?  When you walk up to the counter, employees (and you'll immediately love them) warmly welcomes you and get you situated.  However, the first thing they warn us about is that they're out of small thin crusts so all they have left is large size pizzas (Ah, FINALLY, something negative I can say).  Problem is, it's just the wife and me.  Well, we really want to try this pizza so we order the large with intention of bringing some home for later.  Anyway, you're part of the phenomenon as soon as you walk in.  It's not hard to tell that this place is pizza with a cause.  I could go on forever about this part of the business but, well, I did come here for some pizza.

Ah yes, the pizza.  You can smell the authenticity from outside the restaurant and then you enter and hear them yelling orders and statuses back and forth in the tiny kitchen space.  You can see the perfectly browned crust of their pies as they come out of the oven and anticipate that you've made the right decision to give this place a shot.  Yeah, they do crust right.  Perfectly thin & crispy on the outside, little bit of chew once you take that first bite.  On their pizza oven, there must be a setting labeled "perfect".  Don't know how else to describe it.  You see them pouring sauce on the pie from the bucket as they make it and wonder, "What's the secret to that part?"  Then you taste it and realize....there may be no secret except for the use of great canned tomatoes.  Not sure if they added a darned thing to it but somehow, it's in perfect harmony with everything else on the pie.  I could say the same for the amount of cheese and all of the 4 toppings I ordered on ours.  By the way, I recommend that you make sure sausage is one of the toppings on yours.  It's made in-house and delicious.

Oh, and about that "out of small pizza" problem.  Turns out my petit 5'2" wife and I polished off the whole large pie and left nothing for my teenage son at home despite that we promised him we were coming home with leftovers.  We ended up having to get him In-N-Out.  It was that good.

Overall, this place is a small, hidden dive that serves great, authentic, New York style pizza, arguably the best.  Service is friendly, prompt and sincere.  I encourage you all to eat in and take in the art, the employees and the whole vibe to truly understand what this great business is all about.  Its name is appropriate:  When you leave, you'll be smiling because you just ate the best pizza in the Truckee Meadows.  You'll be Smiling with Hope because you've just been reminded that there are still good people left in this World!
Been Reading and also Reserched your Pizza Journey. ....You are an Inspiration. ....!!!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2017, 01:05:50 PM
Been Reading and also Reserched your Pizza Journey. ....You are an Inspiration. ....!!!

Thanks Loarina.  I feel blessed to have found a place to put my life.  Each day I walk in to open the shop.  It is empty and quiet with smells lingering from last night.  I  look around, get the gears rolling, open the door/turn on the open sign, see our employees find meaning, watch customers eat/converse, at the end of the night clean and lock up.  I am so thankful the place is ours and give a thanks to the pizzeria for putting meaning and hope in my life.  Walter

PS:  And I can't wait for Tuesday to do it all again :)
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: hammettjr on March 12, 2017, 01:11:50 PM
... On their pizza oven, there must be a setting labeled "perfect".  Don't know how else to describe it.


That's awesome!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2017, 01:15:43 PM
That's awesome!

Our ovens are awesome.  They were the last bldogetts Frank Mastro designed before he died.  I feel his mojo on them all the time.  They are 50 years old and workhorses that never let us down.  I love cleaning them each night and I can work on them easily when need be.  The newer deck ovens stink in comparison performance wise. Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 12, 2017, 01:43:18 PM
I agree, screen use has always been seen as a crutch and only used by unskilled labor in chain joints, at least in my eyes. I probably sound stubborn on the screen topic and I know a place like this must use them mostly for the less bench flour aspect but I think that a highly skilled maker will be able to use next to no flour on the peel and the pie will still slide right off. To me, screen use is for emergency only (slowing down an out of balance bottom crust perhaps is a good example). However, that being said, it does not take away the fact that this place is packed, has been doing it's thing for many years and the pie looks legit. I'd love to stop by one day when I'm in the city for a slice. It's on the list.

I run a NY style shop and use screens for a few reasons -

I get better cheese melt. For me, whole milk mozzarella never releases its full flavor until it oils off orange. If you go on a hot deck, you can't always get a great cheese melt, especially if you're busy and losing a lot of heat in the oven.

I also make pies that are close to 20". I have a Blodgett 1000, which are more deep, but narrow. When its busy, it would be very hard to launch pies that size behind other ones. I also have cracks in my bricks which i havent fixed lol. Makes it hard to launch as well.

That said, I pull the pie off the screen after its about 30 percent baked, so the pie is still baked 70 percent on the deck. The difference in undercrust taste and texture is negligible and I get better cheese melt, plus, in Western Pennsylvania, not a lot of guys can launch thin crust pies that large off the peel, so when I have others launching pizza for me, its just easier to start on the screen, and move to the brick after 2 minutes or so.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2017, 02:01:04 PM
I run a NY style shop and use screens for a few reasons -

I get better cheese melt. For me, whole milk mozzarella never releases its full flavor until it oils off orange. If you go on a hot deck, you can't always get a great cheese melt, especially if you're busy and losing a lot of heat in the oven.

I also make pies that are close to 20". I have a Blodgett 1000, which are more deep, but narrow. When its busy, it would be very hard to launch pies that size behind other ones. I also have cracks in my bricks which i havent fixed lol. Makes it hard to launch as well.

That said, I pull the pie off the screen after its about 30 percent baked, so the pie is still baked 70 percent on the deck. The difference in undercrust taste and texture is negligible and I get better cheese melt, plus, in Western Pennsylvania, not a lot of guys can launch thin crust pies that large off the peel, so when I have others launching pizza for me, its just easier to start on the screen, and move to the brick after 2 minutes or so.

Josh:  The 1000's are 37" deep.  We do 18" pies and they handle 4 per oven with a 12"/or calzone in the center of the 4.  No need for screens for the bake if you have them running right. I am the only person who runs the ovens.  Also no need to rotate the pies thus very little heat loss if you manage them right.  Frank Mastro designed these ovens to perfection but many have been modified over the years, gas volume from the street is not right, and/or internal parts are not working right.  These things greatly affect the bake.  My ovens are original and Norma, Ellie Olson (wood fired oven bakers) are a couple world class pizza makers that have baked on our ovens and can confirm this. Walter

PS: Here is a brochure for the ovens you might enjoy.  http://www.blodgett.com/_literature/Spec%20Sheets/Deck/1000-spec.pdf
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 12, 2017, 03:26:43 PM
Walter, from everything I have read from you and about you, and about your pizza, I can bet with confidence that your customer was not sugar-coating things.

I loved the part about deciding whether or not to save a couple slices for the teenage son.  :-[

I have you and Norma's on a very short list If I ever get to the point enough to travel big distances again. Especially to try that sausage.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 12, 2017, 03:54:26 PM
Walter, from everything I have read from you and about you, and about your pizza, I can bet with confidence that your customer was not sugar-coating things.

I loved the part about deciding whether or not to save a couple slices for the teenage son.  :-[

I have you and Norma's on a very short list If I ever get to the point enough to travel big distances again. Especially to try that sausage.

Thanks.  That review summarized what people regularly say to us after eating in the shop or call on the phone to tell us how much they like the pies they took home on carry out.  That is very moving.  We have  had one complaint to date and that was on Yelp because we don't have parm/romano cheese shakers on the tables and don't give any out as it is built in the pies.  Norma's pizza is worth a trip and hopefully she will be back to it.  If you make it Reno I look forward to meeting you.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 13, 2017, 10:07:32 AM
Also no need to rotate the pies thus very little heat loss if you manage them right.  Frank Mastro designed these ovens to perfection but many have been modified over the years, gas volume from the street is not right, and/or internal parts are not working right.  These things greatly affect the bake.  My ovens are original and Norma, Ellie Olson (wood fired oven bakers) are a couple world class pizza makers that have baked on our ovens and can confirm this. Walter

Walter,

Yes, I can confirm that your Blodgett 1000's sure does bake well and evenly without rotating.  ;D 8) I still dream of having one Blodgett 1000's.  As you know I recently looked at one, but with your advice decided not to try and purchase it.  At less than $500.00 it sure sounded like a good bargain.   :-D

https://www.pciauctions.com/archive_item_detail.php?item=464843 

My Baker's Pride Counter Top oven bakes okay.  I think that might be because it is well insulated and also has low head space.  The pizzas mostly need rotated though.  If only one pie at a time is put pie is put in the oven and the doors aren't opened and shut a lot the oven can baked pretty well without rotating.

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: vtsteve on March 13, 2017, 10:13:32 AM
Yes, I can confirm that your Blodgett 1000's sure does bake well and evenly without rotating.  ;D 8) I still dream of having one Blodgett 1000's.  As you know I recently looked at one, but with your advice decided not to try and purchase it.  At less than $500.00 it sure sounded like a good bargain.   :-D

https://www.pciauctions.com/archive_item_detail.php?item=464843

If I lived closer to Manheim, PA, my wife would be really upset with me. Glad you're back home and on the mend!
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 13, 2017, 10:16:16 AM
Walter,

Yes, I can confirm that your Blodgett 1000's sure does bake well and evenly without rotating.  ;D 8) I still dream of having one Blodgett 1000's.  As you know I recently looked at one, but with your advice decided not to try and purchase it.  At less than $500.00 it sure sounded like a good bargain.   :-D

https://www.pciauctions.com/archive_item_detail.php?item=464843 

My Baker's Pride Counter Top oven bakes okay.  I think that might be because it is well insulated and also has low head space.  The pizzas mostly need rotated though.  If only one pie at a time is put pie is put in the oven and the doors aren't opened and shut a lot the oven can baked pretty well without rotating.

Norma

The Blodgett 1000 is a classic, no doubt.

IMO, the best Bakers Pride oven ever made were the 70's era double stack DS805's and also require no pie turning.  Generally speaking, the smaller the oven cavity, the more efficient the bake and the older ones had better construction.  No coincidence the best slices joints still use these.   Di Fara also uses old ds805.

The larger y600/y800's require more turning, but you get more pie output as they are much larger.  Often used in places in NYC which sell 400+ pies a day.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: invertedisdead on March 13, 2017, 11:55:52 AM
The Blodgett 1000 is a classic, no doubt.

IMO, the best Bakers Pride oven ever made were the 70's era double stack DS805's and also require no pie turning.  Generally speaking, the smaller the oven cavity, the more efficient the bake and the older ones had better construction.  No coincidence the best slices joints still use these.   Di Fara also uses old 452's.

The larger y600/y800's require more turning, but you get more pie output as they are much larger.  Often used in places in NYC which sell 400+ pies a day.

How many decks are needed to put out 400 pies a day?
Two? Four?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 13, 2017, 12:23:57 PM
How many decks are needed to put out 400 pies a day?
Two? Four?

one double stack y800 can do 300-400 pies a day easy if pie volume is spread out evenly throughout day.  Realistically, need 2 because lunch and dinner service gets overloaded and some company, construction crew, or event will randomly order 20+ pies.

But if you have a larger space, I'd rather go with three or four smaller ds805's like NY Suprema which does 400-500 pies a day.

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: Josh123 on March 13, 2017, 12:30:28 PM
Josh:  The 1000's are 37" deep.  We do 18" pies and they handle 4 per oven with a 12"/or calzone in the center of the 4.  No need for screens for the bake if you have them running right. I am the only person who runs the ovens.  Also no need to rotate the pies thus very little heat loss if you manage them right.  Frank Mastro designed these ovens to perfection but many have been modified over the years, gas volume from the street is not right, and/or internal parts are not working right.  These things greatly affect the bake.  My ovens are original and Norma, Ellie Olson (wood fired oven bakers) are a couple world class pizza makers that have baked on our ovens and can confirm this. Walter

PS: Here is a brochure for the ovens you might enjoy.  http://www.blodgett.com/_literature/Spec%20Sheets/Deck/1000-spec.pdf

As I said, I have pies closer to 20" and multiple people launching the pies. Not to mention screens allow for me to get a better cheese melt.
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 16, 2017, 01:31:48 AM
Walter,

Yes, I can confirm that your Blodgett 1000's sure does bake well and evenly without rotating.  ;D 8) I still dream of having one Blodgett 1000's.  As you know I recently looked at one, but with your advice decided not to try and purchase it.  At less than $500.00 it sure sounded like a good bargain.   :-D

https://www.pciauctions.com/archive_item_detail.php?item=464843 

My Baker's Pride Counter Top oven bakes okay.  I think that might be because it is well insulated and also has low head space.  The pizzas mostly need rotated though.  If only one pie at a time is put pie is put in the oven and the doors aren't opened and shut a lot the oven can baked pretty well without rotating.

Norma

You will find one Norma and waiting for one that is original and in good shape will be well worth it :)  Most every one I have seen over the past 15 years is a mess of 1/2 as# cheap modifications and the stones are not the right ones.  I love working on these ovens and feel I know them like a lifetime friend.  Ellie and I looked at a couple a few months ago.  They were in a running pizzeria that just closed and it would have taken a couple thousand dollars to get them running right.  It was so 1/2 ass#d rigged that one oven was leaking gas the whole time it was running and could have blown up!  The guy wanted top dollar for them so we passed.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2017, 06:36:14 AM
You will find one Norma and waiting for one that is original and in good shape will be well worth it :)  Most every one I have seen over the past 15 years is a mess of 1/2 as# cheap modifications and the stones are not the right ones.  I love working on these ovens and feel I know them like a lifetime friend.  Ellie and I looked at a couple a few months ago.  They were in a running pizzeria that just closed and it would have taken a couple thousand dollars to get them running right.  It was so 1/2 ass#d rigged that one oven was leaking gas the whole time it was running and could have blown up!  The guy wanted top dollar for them so we passed.  Walter
Walter, I'm a stone junkie. Is there any information that you can point me to as far as the stones that go in these?

Roy
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2017, 08:39:11 AM
You will find one Norma and waiting for one that is original and in good shape will be well worth it :)  Most every one I have seen over the past 15 years is a mess of 1/2 as# cheap modifications and the stones are not the right ones.  I love working on these ovens and feel I know them like a lifetime friend.  Ellie and I looked at a couple a few months ago.  They were in a running pizzeria that just closed and it would have taken a couple thousand dollars to get them running right.  It was so 1/2 ass#d rigged that one oven was leaking gas the whole time it was running and could have blown up!  The guy wanted top dollar for them so we passed.  Walter

Walter,

Hopefully I will find one waiting that is in original and good shape.

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2017, 08:39:55 AM
Walter, I'm a stone junkie. Is there any information that you can point me to as far as the stones that go in these?

Roy

Roy,

You can read some about the Blodgett stones at Reply 1 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43132.msg431714#msg431714

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2017, 09:39:09 AM
Roy,

You can read some about the Blodgett stones at Reply 1 https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43132.msg431714#msg431714

Norma
Thanks very much, Norma. Scott's score looks nice, but that's a hefty bit there.  :o   

I will chase the Fibrament-D path a bit more.

Roy

(fwiw, I'm trying to find something about 1" thick to use instead of my 1-1/4" fire-bricks (the heavier) density ones so that I can move from rack slot to rack slot in my oven. I have to brace the rack they are on right now to keep center-sag to a minimum. Thought is one solid piece would remain flat no matter what the rack does. )

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 16, 2017, 10:37:00 AM
Walter, I'm a stone junkie. Is there any information that you can point me to as far as the stones that go in these?

Roy

Roy:  The stones are notched where they fit together (2 stones per oven) and they have the Blodgett stamp on them.  Finding one without an oven would probably be harder than winning the lottery.   Fortunately I "won" in that I found a pizzeria in PA that donated 3 stones to me.  I had to have them shipped which cost a lot.  Here is how they came.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: TXCraig1 on March 16, 2017, 10:38:36 AM
Walter,

Why did they stop making the 1000 and the good stones? Too expensive?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 16, 2017, 10:43:24 AM
Walter,

Why did they stop making the 1000 and the good stones? Too expensive?

Craig: They only hold 4 -18" pies and the newer deck ovens hold 6.  Frank Mastro designed the smaller door on the 1000's/older bakers prides to hold the heat but they take getting use to with launching pies (ask Norma :) ).  The new deck doors open the entire width of the oven making launching easier and heat loss increases a lot.  I have used the new Blodgett and Bakers Pride ovens and they stink.  You have to rotate the pies where in my ovens you don't.  This saves a person in the work flow and our shop is so tight that there is no room for an oven tender and me.  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2017, 02:56:20 PM
Walter, thanks for the pictures.

Craig, I might have to settle for some metal works folks creating something along the lines of your MOABS support system. The big challenge is holding 8 pieces of brick in place while maintaining a level surface that a strong 1-inch, 1-piece stone would provide. Perhaps I will have to re-settle on that kiln shelf.

Roy
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 16, 2017, 03:56:14 PM
Frank Mastro designed the smaller door on the 1000's/older bakers prides to hold the heat but they take getting use to with launching pies (ask Norma :) ). Walter

Walter,

I agree your Blodgett takes some getting used to because of place the peel can get stuck.  I found that out pretty fast.   :-D :-[


I wonder if I got one of those asbestos-containing transite stones from that one oven (at the other stand at market) how it would bake.

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2017, 01:39:25 AM
Walter, thanks for the pictures.

Craig, I might have to settle for some metal works folks creating something along the lines of your MOABS support system. The big challenge is holding 8 pieces of brick in place while maintaining a level surface that a strong 1-inch, 1-piece stone would provide. Perhaps I will have to re-settle on that kiln shelf.

Roy

You are welcome and good luck on the journey :)   Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2017, 01:43:19 AM
Walter,

I agree your Blodgett takes some getting used to because of place the peel can get stuck.  I found that out pretty fast.   :-D :-[


I wonder if I got one of those asbestos-containing transite stones from that one oven (at the other stand at market) how it would bake.

Norma

Norma: In your  home oven?  I don't know - another experiment for you!  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2017, 04:48:08 AM
Norma: In your  home oven?  I don't know - another experiment for you!  Walter

Walter,

No, not in my home oven because it doesn't get hot enough.  I wonder how one of those transite stones would bake in the oven at market.  A few photos of the transite stones
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46643.msg467850#msg467850

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: rparker on March 17, 2017, 09:32:55 AM
Walter,

No, not in my home oven because it doesn't get hot enough.  I wonder how one of those transite stones would bake in the oven at market.  A few photos of the transite stones
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46643.msg467850#msg467850

Norma
How thick are those?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: waltertore on March 17, 2017, 10:28:48 AM
Walter,

No, not in my home oven because it doesn't get hot enough.  I wonder how one of those transite stones would bake in the oven at market.  A few photos of the transite stones
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=46643.msg467850#msg467850

Norma

Norma:  If I remember your oven at market stones are thicker than these?  Are they the same width and length?  The stones look to sit on a steel shelf in the new oven?  Does your BP oven stones sit on metal shelf as well? With all that said I guess the only way to find out is to do it :)  Walter
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2017, 03:26:39 PM
How thick are those?

Roy,

I am not sure how thick those stones are.  The pizzas did bake well in that older oven even though I used frozen doughs that sure weren't fermented much.  The stones can make 18" pizzas.  When I get better I will measure how thick the stones are.

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: norma427 on March 17, 2017, 03:29:06 PM
Norma:  If I remember your oven at market stones are thicker than these?  Are they the same width and length?  The stones look to sit on a steel shelf in the new oven?  Does your BP oven stones sit on metal shelf as well? With all that said I guess the only way to find out is to do it :)  Walter

Walter,

Your memory is good.  The Baker's Pride stones are thicker.  No they are not the same length and width.  You are also right that those stones seem to sit on those steel shelves in the other oven at Dan's.  When I get better I will try to see what can be done.

Norma
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: RogerC on April 05, 2017, 11:03:20 AM
Check out their old school menu.  Anchovy pie.

So if one slice = $1.00 that means they 24 slices out of one $24.00 pizza?
Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 05, 2017, 11:07:49 AM
So if one slice = $1.00 that means they 24 slices out of one $24.00 pizza?

$3 for one regular slice.  Whole regular pie is $21 cut in 8 slices.  1 topping pie is $24.

Title: Re: pizza doughnut
Post by: RogerC on April 05, 2017, 11:11:23 AM
$3 for one regular slice.  Whole regular pie is $21 cut in 8 slices.  1 topping pie is $24.

You are right...for some reason I kept seeing $1, then I cleaned my glasses  :-D