Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: invertedisdead on May 22, 2017, 05:51:16 PM

Title: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 22, 2017, 05:51:16 PM
Just opening this up going off of the cheese melt thread.

One thing I'm curious about is oil amount in the sauce. Marcella Hazan, Lydia B. Etc. use 4+ tbsp of fat per 28 oz can of tomatoes for their marinara. Anybody using higher oil amounts like that in their pizza sauce? Is EVOO a real NY style street slice sauce ingredient?

I think I'm looking for a sweeter sauce to balance out the saltiness of the crust and cheese, but also with enough zing and acid to make the flavors pop. What's the trick there beyond naturally sweet tomatoes? Regular old sugar? Fruit juice? Coca Cola? Honey?

Use this thread as an ongoing discussion of the development of the NY sauce flavor profile.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 22, 2017, 06:52:39 PM
I share your questions about the use of oil.

Lately I've been using 2 tsp oil (half evoo/half light olive) per 14" pie to thin the sauce a bit while adding richness. It looks like alot when I first add it, but after a good stir and a rest it looks fine. I have no idea how much or which kind of oil may be used in street slices. Would be interested to know the typical range as I'm sure it varies.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 22, 2017, 07:17:18 PM
I share your questions about the use of oil.

Lately I've been using 2 tsp oil (half evoo/half light) per 14" pie to thin the sauce a bit while adding richness. It looks like alot when I first add it, but after a good stir and a rest it looks fine. I have no idea how much or why kind of oil may be used in street slices. Would be interested to know the typical range as I'm sure it varies.

I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Hermit on May 22, 2017, 07:50:51 PM
I am very interested to hear thoughts on this.  I don't use any oil in my sauce but I'd like to if it won't make it too greasy.  I always struggle with moisture on pies.

Right now I really have no idea what I am shooting for, admittedly, having never been to NY and had anything to compare it to.  Just what I've had at so called "NY style pizzarias" outside of NY.  Seems like a wide range between them all in the sauce, I guess this is what sets a lot of them apart if they're using the same ovens/cheese/flour.

Right now I have this renegade sauce that I like, changing up between tomatoes seems to bring a difference to the base.  I've been able to add in some red wine vinegar or white sugar to alter a Roma WP tomato to get a little closer to SM but it's still not the same.  Standard WP tomatoes seem to need the most work but around here they have a lot of the salt already in them. 

My seasonings have changed a lot but I seem to really like 1tsp of granular garlic and oregano, 1/2 tsp of black pepper and crushed red pepper in the sauce.  Using white sugar or red wine vinegar to adjust the sweetness or acidity of the sauce.  I'm finding the salt bounces between 1/2tsp and 1tsp depending on the sodium content of tomatoes.  After about 4 months of using almost exclusively SM tomatoes it seems like the roma WP tomatoes need some work.  No side by side comparisons just perception at this point.  I've been trying to take most tomato products between crushed, WP, diced, and get the flavor and consistency to a familiar ballpark.  It takes me a good 2 hours to make the sauce from the time it's strained until it's done just cooking down the juice and getting the salt/sweet/acid right.  Last time I did a taste test throughout the seasoning process and while it wasn't a rested sauce, I still got the general idea of the profile.  The fresh ground black pepper and granulated garlic both seemed to bring the most layered and noticable flavor profiles over the rest of ingredients.

I have tried about 8 different tomatoes, so this is from a very limited perspective!  I see a lot of members using various brands of tomatoes and I am sure they are great and more commercially used, my ingredients are mostly from a standard grocery shoppers perspective.  I don't get out much.

I think I have my local pizzaria beat out on sauce but I need to do a purchase and comparison with some testers to see  ;D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 22, 2017, 08:28:32 PM
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.

Go for it, will be interested to hear your thoughts. That should be in the same ballpark as what I'm doing. I use half light olive oil because it doesn't have much flavor and I was concerned that all EVOO would have too much flavor. But I never tested how much is too much. I like this thread already.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 22, 2017, 08:40:36 PM
I tend to like whole peeled tomatoes packed in juice. I like 7/11's and will have to mess with freezing them some more, but I noticed some commercial crushed tomatoes are packed in a purťe which is sometimes bad and can ruin the batch.

My garlic powder seems bitter, I'll have to try another one. I like fresh garlic in sauce but find it hard to measure.

I love black pepper but find it easy to over do it.

I think oregano quality makes a huge difference, I had some great organic stuff and I haven't gotten that nice oregano hit since I ran out of that.

I'm looking for that sweet and zesty sauce. I may need to try cola. I think the sweetness + acid could work. Pineapple juice is sweet and sour, but that might be getting crazy... Although Kenji puts fish sauce in his bolognese so hey... Reaching out here

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 22, 2017, 08:41:47 PM
Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 22, 2017, 08:47:01 PM

My garlic powder seems bitter, I'll have to try another one. I like fresh garlic in sauce but find it hard to measure.


I want to try fresh garlic, never put it in my sauce. Maybe weigh it?
Title: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 22, 2017, 08:51:37 PM
I want to try fresh garlic, never put it in my sauce. Maybe weigh it?

I don't think it would register on my scale with the amount I'd use, but I may try mincing it or pressing it and then measure out 1/8-1/4 teaspoon. Should be fairly accurate.

Fresh garlic adds a nice unique heat. I may just infuse it in the EVOO to tame the olive oil and discard the clove to avoid measuring.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on May 23, 2017, 12:12:48 AM
I keep it really simple, Sclafani, a pinch of good oregano and a pinch of sea salt. I've also used trader joes, which in 6-in-1, with a little more sea salt. My wife, who owns the better palate in the marriage. loves my sauce, so I think I'm on to something with the kiss technique.  If I'm topping with pepperoni, I leave out the sea salt.

I do add a really good eevo post bake and it definitely adds richness to the slice.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: csnack on May 23, 2017, 03:40:45 AM
I have yet to keep it simple. I tend to like a well seasoned mae sauce. I've been going through a case of Sclafani and they're very good, but I just got a deal on 6 28oz cans of Cento all purpose crushed and I really dig the taste right out of the can. Sclafani is good out of the can too, but I think I'm liking Cento better though I ended up doing my usual mae and seasonings. I think next time I'll try just a bit of salt, red pepper flakes and maybe oregano since that seems to be the quintessential NY sauce herb, and some evoo. I always use 2 tbsp of a decent evoo, right now California Olive Ranch.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on May 23, 2017, 04:01:41 AM
Ashley Searches NYC for the Secret to Its Legendary Pizza Tradition

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/blogs/1st-look/New-York-vs-Los-Angeles-Pizza.html
 
Note how thin Luigi's sauce is and how the cheese melt is. 

BTW, I do like some olive oil in my sauces except for NP pies.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 23, 2017, 07:12:12 AM
I keep it really simple, Sclafani, a pinch of good oregano and a pinch of sea salt.

Can you elaborate on the oregano you use and where you purchase it?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on May 23, 2017, 08:23:41 AM
this is the best I've found so far:

https://www.amazon.com/Gangi-Dante-Organic-Oregano-Sicily/dp/B00IT8V9GE/ref=sr_1_7_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1495542067&sr=8-7&keywords=sicilian+oregano
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rlslmshdy on May 23, 2017, 10:15:04 AM
Is everyone using oregano in their NY style sauce?  I use fresh basil in my sauce.  I dont use oregano.  Guess i need to try oregano
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 23, 2017, 01:23:35 PM
Regarding sauce complexity... This is just my opinion, but I find it a lot easier to get away with a simpler sauce when using toppings like pepperoni or others. I tend to use a fairly pronounced pepperoni which can add zing to any pie, so I find it's the classic cheese slice which reveals the pitfalls of a sauce. I like a sweet and zesty sauce with an herbal backbone, but I don't like it when the herbs turn the sauce bitter. Is that from using a lower quality oregano? Do you guys using the real deal notice less aversion to that occurring?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on May 23, 2017, 01:49:41 PM
I've been using jsaras's sauce recipe for the past few years and really like it: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38976.msg390028#msg390028

Depending on the tomatoes I use, I may add plain white sugar. For Smart & Final crushed tomatoes, I usually add 10-14 grams.  If using Cento All-purpose, I don't add any sugar.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 23, 2017, 09:13:34 PM
I don't like it when the herbs turn the sauce bitter. Is that from using a lower quality oregano? Do you guys using the real deal notice less aversion to that occurring?

Not sure, it's possible. I also mix my sauce only a few hours before baking, so it's not sitting that long.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 23, 2017, 09:14:37 PM
this is the best I've found so far:

https://www.amazon.com/Gangi-Dante-Organic-Oregano-Sicily/dp/B00IT8V9GE/ref=sr_1_7_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1495542067&sr=8-7&keywords=sicilian+oregano

Thanks.  I read about this one on the forum recently. Consensus was that it was the best. How do you store it?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 23, 2017, 10:45:03 PM
Should the sauce on a square be different from a round pie? I know some NY places have a different Sicilian sauce - how common is this?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on May 24, 2017, 09:34:15 AM
Thanks Matt, I'll buy some next time I head to Sansone. I'm out of Grande already so it's time for a trip.

Regarding sauce, I've been experimenting for over a year now just to come up with a NY pizzeria quality sauce recipe. This is by far the hardest part of pizza making so far in my opinion. I feel like I'm pretty close now, especially after the stars aligned a few weeks ago: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831)

It's my opinion that there are some things you must use to get a sauce, and some variables. A quality NJ tomato like 7-11's is probably the most important. Oregano just has to be in the sauce, and thinness is pretty important to get a good even cheese boil. I put oil in my sauce too because of the past posts of Tom Lehmann recommending it https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.msg237549#msg237549 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.msg237549#msg237549) Whether or not it helps, I didn't really do a side-by-side comparison so I cannot say. I do try to put a neutral flavored oil in though, I don't think EVOO is right or economical for pizzerias to use. I think it's beneficial overall.

I also put salt, black pepper, garlic powder, a dash of basil though I'm not positive it's necessary, and romano cheese. I purchased sauce from a local pizzeria that I admire and there is without a doubt a hard cheese in it. After speaking with a few ex-pizza guys, romano is/was pretty commonly used between them.

One thing I've been curious about lately is what specific brands of spices pizzerias use, as I'm sure they are different from the stuff you find in a supermarket. Maybe that's the final piece of the puzzle I'm looking for?

While KISS is generally a good practice for pizza, I think NY Style street sauce is a little more complicated than tomatoes straight out of a can with some salt & oregano, unless its a NY Margherita slice...



Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 09:52:51 AM
I agree sauce is the hardest part, everything else seems easy enough. It's one of those things where we are using the same relative ingredients, but the end result can come out dramatically different just based on ratios and spice quality. I'm curious how many shops are just adding MSG...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 05:37:08 PM
Well I'm going in - been liking these generic San Marzanos. Going to reduce this juice down to paste, then fry that in EVOO; and add that to the purťed tomatoes with raw fresh crushed garlic, dried oregano, more EVOO, and Pecorino Romano. I may add black pepper or chile flake... Or both.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 24, 2017, 09:40:51 PM
Regarding sauce, I've been experimenting for over a year now just to come up with a NY pizzeria quality sauce recipe. This is by far the hardest part of pizza making so far in my opinion. I feel like I'm pretty close now, especially after the stars aligned a few weeks ago: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34538.msg473831#msg473831)


Thanks Josh. After Norma posted the video earlier I started rethinking my thinness. And was thinking about thinning my 7/11 with a blended whole San Marzano. It's possible I was remembering your thread. 75/25 sounds like a good thing for me to try.

I agree with everything you've said about your sauce (romano, garlic, oregano etc, based largely on what I've learned from Norma, her videos with Frank, and from Harry.) I think you'll really like the supercharged oregano.

The other thing that could be a missing link is the quality of hard cheese. We had this discussion recently on the melt thread.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 10:14:40 PM
I thought it came out really well. I still have mixed feelings on the garlic. It adds a a nice savory note, and I like the slight heat it adds too, up but it also seems to steal the tomatoes spotlight the easiest. I may try infusing the garlic in oil and compare, though it definitely adds a different flavor that way than just adding in raw minced garlic.

I ended up adding 1 tsp of pecorino Romano, 1/2 tsp of oregano, 1/8 tsp black pepper & crushed red pepper and one minced clove of garlic, about 2 tbsp EVOO.


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 24, 2017, 10:34:24 PM
I thought it came out really well. I still have mixed feelings on the garlic. It adds a a nice savory note, and I like the slight heat it adds too, up but it also seems to steal the tomatoes spotlight the easiest. I may try infusing the garlic in oil and compare, though it definitely adds a different flavor that way than just adding in raw minced garlic.

I ended up adding 1 tsp of pecorino Romano, 1/2 tsp of oregano, 1/8 tsp black pepper & crushed red pepper and one minced clove of garlic, about 2 tbsp EVOO.

Good stuff. Do you know the volume of sauce you made?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 24, 2017, 10:40:51 PM
Good stuff. Do you know the volume of sauce you made?

Not sure on volume, I made a square pie and used a big spoon to spread instead of my normal ladles for round pies so hard to say; but it probably was on the smaller side as these whole peeled are packed in a lot of juice which doesn't add much volume at all to the purťed tomatoes.  I used almost the whole can on one pie. I'd like to try some of the Stanislaus 70/30 tomato filets as it should have the fresher brighter whole peeled taste but with more tomato product as they can pack a lot more tomato filets than whole tomatoes.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on May 24, 2017, 11:43:39 PM
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on May 25, 2017, 12:09:00 AM
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.

Some would say that black pepper should be reserved for coal oven NY pizzas, but what do I know?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on May 25, 2017, 12:18:15 AM
I have to back off the garlic some as my crust gets more dense and reduces the sauce boil. It seems to linger and not brighten up unless I get a massive boil. Might make next without and slowly climb from there like the other things. I was on a assive streak on the sauce front, but not good on 3 or 4 of the last 6 or so I've made.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 12:21:51 AM
Some would say that black pepper should be reserved for coal oven NY pizzas, but what do I know?

Like who? Someone posted a clip from Di Fara today with black pepper in their sauce too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 25, 2017, 07:15:31 AM
Like who? Someone posted a clip from Di Fara today with black pepper in their sauce too.

Like most ingredients I suspect some use it, some don't. I remember a video where the guy from Lucali eats at a few pizzerias, and it's mentioned that he adds black pepper to his coal oven slices, but crushed red pepper to street slices. No idea if that really indicates anything though.

Obviously all ingredients need to be balanced, but I'm very careful with both black pepper and garlic powder as too much ruins a pie for me. Oregano, romano, sugar and oil seem to have more leeway, I guess because they're not as strong.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 25, 2017, 07:57:19 AM
I think NY sauce needs to have oregano and black pepper in it. Those are key. 7/11 is king of NY sauce base. Romano is good, olive oil, as well as garlic powder. It's never just crushed tomato and salt.

Josh, can you give us more info about oregano from your perspective as a pizzeria operator. Is your oregano similar to a typical oregano from a grocery store? How many different types of oregano does your supplier offer?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 25, 2017, 08:31:52 AM
NY sauce can be applied raw in a deck oven, as the IR heat will penetrate everything and get you proper cook.  Though my favorite slice joints pre-cook sauce and when I say cook, I don't mean a rolling boil for hour, but a light simmer.

For home oven, I'd simmer the sauce for 15-30 minutes to get a head start to incorporate flavors and help convert the pH.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 12:30:50 PM
Like most ingredients I suspect some use it, some don't. I remember a video where the guy from Lucali eats at a few pizzerias, and it's mentioned that he adds black pepper to his coal oven slices, but crushed red pepper to street slices. No idea if that really indicates anything though.

Obviously all ingredients need to be balanced, but I'm very careful with both black pepper and garlic powder as too much ruins a pie for me. Oregano, romano, sugar and oil seem to have more leeway, I guess because they're not as strong.

He adds the pepper pre or post bake?

I have to be careful with the Romano too, I wonder how many are using real Pecorino Romano versus domestic cows milk Romano.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on May 25, 2017, 03:06:58 PM
For NY style sauce, Joe's is the standard.

It tastes very minimally doctored up to me. It runs on the sweeter side, but in a good way. I know they use Nina brand tomatoes, and my taste buds tell me they add a very small amount of sugar to the tomatoes. That should be it.

In general, pecorino is always added before the mozzarella on top of the sauce...not in it. I also don't think there is any oregano in the tomatoes. That's why they have it in shakers.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 25, 2017, 03:16:36 PM
I know you know just shaking on post bake oregano doesn't really allow its essential oils to bloom so it doesn't seem ideal, right? Unless you don't think oregano is a quintessential NY slice ingredient?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 25, 2017, 06:14:04 PM
For NY style sauce, Joe's is the standard.

It tastes very minimally doctored up to me. It runs on the sweeter side, but in a good way. I know they use Nina brand tomatoes, and my taste buds tell me they add a very small amount of sugar to the tomatoes. That should be it.

In general, pecorino is always added before the mozzarella on top of the sauce...not in it. I also don't think there is any oregano in the tomatoes. That's why they have it in shakers.

Joe's may be the standard Manhattan slice, but that doesn't say much anymore being that Manhattan is now the mall borough of NYC.  I also know Joe's changed their sauce in the early 2000's.   I lived on Jones St. off Bleecker from 1996-2004 and ate there often.  They serve a minimalist sauce now for the large transplant/tourist clientele and a tray of spices for people to customize their own flavors -> caters to broader audience via dilution, born out of the gentrification trends of the 2000's.


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 25, 2017, 06:42:55 PM
He adds the pepper pre or post bake?


Post bake on slices he's buying at other pizzerias.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 25, 2017, 06:45:13 PM
NY sauce can be applied raw in a deck oven, as the IR heat will penetrate everything and get you proper cook.  Though my favorite slice joints pre-cook sauce and when I say cook, I don't mean a rolling boil for hour, but a light simmer.

For home oven, I'd simmer the sauce for 15-30 minutes to get a head start to incorporate flavors and help convert the pH.

Can you recommend a place that has a pre-cooked sauce? I'm hoping to get to Margherita or Amore (really trying for Margherita) towards the end of June. Do they pre-cook? How is their sauce?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 26, 2017, 09:36:47 AM
Can you recommend a place that has a pre-cooked sauce? I'm hoping to get to Margherita or Amore (really trying for Margherita) towards the end of June. Do they pre-cook? How is their sauce?

Margherita and Lucia are old school >50 years old and cook their sauces like most slice joints did years ago.   Again, cook meaning not a 5 hour boil in a cauldron, but a light simmer to meld flavors and convert the pH.  Too long and it'll be lost and turn into marinara.  The sauce is an orange/red and wet.   The general philosophy is the sauce is what flavors the mozzarella.  There is powdered cheese, olive oil, oregano, onion/garlic flavor, some black pepper, sometimes some other ingredient with high glutamatic acid, and balancing a salt/tart/sweet profile.  You really taste the sauce unlike generic slice joints.



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on May 26, 2017, 04:50:46 PM
To my knowledge, NY Sauce has never been a cooked sauce. The orange slick is a product of the right oven temp when the cheese melds with the sauce in a way.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 26, 2017, 05:03:54 PM
Harry, it may be helpful if you could share how you came to the precooked conclusion. Is it from observing the taste and texture of the sauce, from discussions with the pizzeria owners, from seeing the pot of simmering sauce, other? Particularly for pizzerias still operating that way today.

In any event, does anyone have a view on the smallest amount of sauce that can be simmered at a time? I dont think my pots would work well with a 1/2 cup of tomato. I'm thinking of doing a side by side test this weekend.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 26, 2017, 05:13:27 PM
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 26, 2017, 05:19:33 PM
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?

Come talk brisket in Texas.  :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 26, 2017, 11:37:24 PM
To my knowledge, NY Sauce has never been a cooked sauce. The orange slick is a product of the right oven temp when the cheese melds with the sauce in a way.

Go to Queens or the Bronx or where Hispanics and Blacks live in Brooklyn.  Slices in Manhattan are generally garbage.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 26, 2017, 11:38:06 PM
Isn't it interesting how two native New Yorkers could have completely opposite opinions regarding NY pizza?

I don't think hotsawce is native.  Where were you born and where did you grow up before you came to Crooklyn?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 27, 2017, 12:47:04 AM
and no, there is no ny pizza in italy, though they've tried.  it's #*%$ awful.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 27, 2017, 11:46:55 PM
Harry, it may be helpful if you could share how you came to the precooked conclusion. Is it from observing the taste and texture of the sauce, from discussions with the pizzeria owners, from seeing the pot of simmering sauce, other? Particularly for pizzerias still operating that way today.

In any event, does anyone have a view on the smallest amount of sauce that can be simmered at a time? I dont think my pots would work well with a 1/2 cup of tomato. I'm thinking of doing a side by side test this weekend.

Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

I have spent extensive time with several pizzerias in research to know they cook sauces.  Again, cook does not equal hours of boil, but simmer for what, 15-30 minutes.   If you know sauces of any cuisine, from chinese to french, simmer and boils produce very different outcomes and then there is the rate of caramelization via the oven.  It's a fine balance.

Even with uncooked sauces, the worst advice imo, is to take raw tomatoes in a home oven for Ny slices.  Deck ovens produce the IR heat to cook the sauce right.  (you won't even get that in an NP oven which has less IR heat, but that's what they want in that style, "fresh, raw")
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: chrisgraff on May 28, 2017, 10:52:21 AM
I recently switched to cooking the sauce because the consistency is better - not so watery. My go to recipe is Marcella Hazan's marinara with half the butter. Really tasty!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 28, 2017, 01:54:32 PM
Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

I have spent extensive time with several pizzerias in research to know they cook sauces.  Again, cook does not equal hours of boil, but simmer for what, 15-30 minutes.   If you know sauces of any cuisine, from chinese to french, simmer and boils produce very different outcomes and then there is the rate of caramelization via the oven.  It's a fine balance.

Even with uncooked sauces, the worst advice imo, is to take raw tomatoes in a home oven for Ny slices.  Deck ovens produce the IR heat to cook the sauce right.  (you won't even get that in an NP oven which has less IR heat, but that's what they want in that style, "fresh, raw")

The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on May 28, 2017, 04:22:41 PM
The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.

Ryan, 

I don't know how long the Flotta sauce has been around but it isn't as thick as the Stanislaus Saporito.  Yes, Frank did mention he liked the Flotta.

I played around with different crushed tomatoe and hand crushed whole tomatoes on one thread. Other ingredients were added and then they were slowed baked at a low temperature.  The taste sure was different when baked on a pizza.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on May 30, 2017, 07:25:37 AM
Not all NY slices are made with cooked sauces, I was merely stating that was a workflow of the past before you were born.  Today, you have heavy pastes, which is a pH affected tomato product (via cooking during processing, umami rich), and speeds up the workflow. 

You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Ryan, 

I don't know how long the Flotta sauce has been around but it isn't as thick as the Stanislaus Saporito.  Yes, Frank did mention he liked the Flotta.

I played around with different crushed tomatoe and hand crushed whole tomatoes on one thread. Other ingredients were added and then they were slowed baked at a low temperature.  The taste sure was different when baked on a pizza.

Norma

Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on May 30, 2017, 08:51:36 AM
Craig, I'd much rather came eat brisket in Texas than talk about it :-D


I've been lucky enough to do so a few times...so good!


Sorry to interrupt   ;D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 30, 2017, 01:06:52 PM
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 30, 2017, 02:50:55 PM
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Cooking a fruit or vegetable caramelizes it, brings out the natural sugar which interacts with the citric acid of tomato (both natural and added during canning.  It begins to overpower the acidity.  I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking, I should rather say that there is a significant change in flavor.



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on May 30, 2017, 03:02:23 PM
I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking


I'll do it next time I cook a sauce.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 30, 2017, 06:11:19 PM
...I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

I tried it this past weekend and liked it too. I used your ratio of 75% 7/11 to 25% whole tomatoes. In my case, I used Cento Certified. And both types of tomato were thoroughly blended. It did give the cheese a wetter appearance, without it feeling watery when eaten. I'm wondering if I can get away with leaving a portion of the 7/11 unblended, as I think having some Tomato chunks could be good (but I don't want to lose the grease).

2 other things that worked well this weekend:
Romano on top of the sauce instead of in it.
Screen for the LAST portion of the bake.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on May 30, 2017, 06:18:23 PM
Family were first generation immigrants from Italy and Poland...settled in Greenpoint and what is now little Italy. Second generation moved to the Bronx when it was still Italian. I grew up in Jersey but spent a lot of time in NYC. I don't recall tasting cooked sauces. My family never put cooked sauce on pizza.

I'm not sure there's any of the oldschool places still left in Queens or the Bronx. Dani's House of Pizza is the best I've had in Queens and it's not really old school...and I don't think they cook the sauce...it is my favorite slice though.

It's up for debate. I haven't been to a slice place in recent memory that cooks the sauce. Would be open to trying one, however.

I don't think hotsawce is native.  Where were you born and where did you grow up before you came to Crooklyn?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 30, 2017, 06:25:02 PM
Family were first generation immigrants from Italy and Poland...settled in Greenpoint and what is now little Italy. Second generation moved to the Bronx when it was still Italian. I grew up in Jersey but spent a lot of time in NYC. I don't recall tasting cooked sauces. My family never put cooked sauce on pizza.

I'm not sure there's any of the oldschool places still left in Queens or the Bronx. Dani's House of Pizza is the best I've had in Queens and it's not really old school...and I don't think they cook the sauce...it is my favorite slice though.

It's up for debate. I haven't been to a slice place in recent memory that cooks the sauce. Would be open to trying one, however.

Try New Park Pizzeria in Howard Beach, Lucia in Flushing, and Margherita in Astoria.  All 3 pizzerias are >50 years old now and cook their sauces, but again, we're talking flavoring by simmer, not hours of boil and it's not marinara sauce.  All 3 also add grated cheese in their sauces.

Pizza sauce has changed past 20 years especially in Manhattan.  Even Joe's changed their sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 30, 2017, 07:10:18 PM
The heavy pastes have been around for quite a while, no? I recall Frank Guaquinto mentioned his father used Flotta pizza sauce in Norma's video.

The ones labeled "Heavy Pizza Sauce" like Saporito and Full Red is more modern.  They were made specifically for fast pizzeria workflows, add water, spices and voila, pizza sauce.

Flotta may have been the original paste pizza sauce.  Though I've seen it around, it's not a very popular product. 


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 30, 2017, 07:18:05 PM
I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.

7/11 + Saporito is a very popular "uncooked" base for pizza.

They add the Saporito to get the richness as paste is derived from cooking during manufacturing.  Still, better to simmer the combination a bit first if baking in home oven, because you're simply not gonna get the IR heat of a deck oven to fully caramelize the sugars.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on May 30, 2017, 08:17:26 PM
You've mentioned altering the pH of tomatoes a couple times, can you elaborate on this a little so I understand the theory?


Norma - Is Saporito extra-heavy your preference? If so, do you mix any other tomatoes with it?


I've played around with heavy puree's like Saporito/Full red but I find myself coming back to 7/11's for the extra brightness. I spoke with the sales guy at Sansone foods about what his clients are buying, and he said 7/11's with a mix of some type of whole tomatoes makes a good NY sauce, or using a heavy pizza sauce and watering it down if they want to go the more economical route. I do like the blending of 7/11's with whole tomatoes.

Josh,

Yes, Saporito extra-heavy w/basil is my preference, and no I don't mix any whole tomatoes in.  Of course with other added ingredients.  I also like 7/11's and 7/11's and Saporito mixed. 

Really there are many pizza sauces I like.

Norma

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on May 31, 2017, 07:55:38 AM
I would think thinning the extra heavy puree with blended undrained whole peeled would thin it perfectly and add the missing brightness and freshness/acidity to the savory sweet concentrated tomatoes.

I did this with full red, but not Saporito extra heavy. I suspect you'd need to add water to Saporito unless you milled the whole peeled tomatoes with a very fine mesh size to get it watery. The full-red/saporito blend was good if I recall, but that was a while ago.

Cooking a fruit or vegetable caramelizes it, brings out the natural sugar which interacts with the citric acid of tomato (both natural and added during canning.  It begins to overpower the acidity.  I should mention that I've not done any lab experiments, as to what the pH levels are after cooking, I should rather say that there is a significant change in flavor.

I'll do it next time I cook a sauce.

I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.

Josh,

Yes, Saporito extra-heavy w/basil is my preference, and no I don't mix any whole tomatoes in.  Of course with other added ingredients.  I also like 7/11's and 7/11's and Saporito mixed. 


Thank you for the confirmation Norma, I appreciate and respect your opinion!

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on May 31, 2017, 10:49:27 AM


I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.


Josh,

I also have a pH meter.  I could also take some pH readings.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 31, 2017, 12:09:34 PM
I did this with full red, but not Saporito extra heavy. I suspect you'd need to add water to Saporito unless you milled the whole peeled tomatoes with a very fine mesh size to get it watery. The full-red/saporito blend was good if I recall, but that was a while ago.

I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.


Could very well be more acidic in pH with cooking.  There is certainly a change in flavor, but I'm not a scientist. 


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on May 31, 2017, 12:17:44 PM
>I'd be interested in seeing those results. I've always felt my sunday sauce got more acidic as
>I cooked it. I do agree there is a big difference in flavor in cooked vs. uncooked.

Sauces that cook for hours like Sunday sauce will get more acidic as the water evaporates and volume is reduced, the acids become more concentrated. I doubt you'll notice this with a short 15-30 minute simmer. I also doubt you'll get any caramelization of sugars with a short, low simmer. Most sugars don't begin to caramelize until at least 230F. Something else is going on. There are so many compounds in tomatoes it's not hard to imagine that some changes take place if they are heated.  I also think one reason many places might simmer sauce is to extract essential oils of any herbs they add and allow those flavors to blend quicker. 

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on May 31, 2017, 12:30:35 PM
but I'm not a scientist.


Have you played one on tv or slept in a Holiday Inn Express lately?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on May 31, 2017, 12:56:15 PM

Have you played one on tv or slept in a Holiday Inn Express lately?

Nope, not like most of you guys with chemistry labs in your kitchens and analyzing yeast molecules
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: TXCraig1 on May 31, 2017, 01:04:59 PM
My thinking on cooked sauces has evolved a lot in the past few months. On the square pies I've been making, I definitely prefer a cooked sauce. I've been using a combination of crushed and whole peeled with a good amount of calabrian chile oil, mashed fresh garlic, some dried oregano, and S&P. I haven't really paid attention to how long I've been cooking it. Less than an hour over a very low heat.

Edit: forgot to list fresh garlic in the recipe.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on May 31, 2017, 03:13:35 PM
My thinking on cooked sauces has evolved a lot in the past few months. On the square pies I've been making, I definitely prefer a cooked sauce. I've been using a combination of crushed and whole peeled with a good amount of calabrian chile oil, some dried oregano, and S&P. I haven't really paid attention to how long I've been cooking it. Less than an hour over a very low heat.

I consider a cooked sauce a must for a square pie.  I haven't made a NY pie in over a year,  but I like to simmer some garlic, tomato paste, oregano, and anchovy in olive oil and add that to 7/11 for a NY sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 31, 2017, 07:28:43 PM
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 31, 2017, 07:34:05 PM
Craig, JKB, have you guys tried your cooked sauce on a round pie?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on May 31, 2017, 08:53:03 PM
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

Any garlic flavor? I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on May 31, 2017, 09:05:48 PM
Any garlic flavor? I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?

Interesting, I didn't even think about garlic until you mentioned it, so it certainly didn't stick out. I'd guess some table sugar. But when I tasted the big tomato chunk, it had a nice natural sweetness, so I think the quality of the tomato is the biggest factor. (The tomato was far sweeter and superior to the cento I used to use.) To be clear, this didn't taste like a sugar bomb. A romano bomb perhaps.


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on May 31, 2017, 09:19:21 PM
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on May 31, 2017, 10:20:27 PM
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

Hmm, I'll have to try that.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 01, 2017, 06:26:08 AM
Pizza Suprema is great. Gotta get the upside down square there next time...

Will do. Do they use the same sauce for the round and square pies?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 01, 2017, 11:50:51 AM
I thought the cooked sauce I made yesterday tasted great by itself but it didn't do it for me on the pizza. Worked really well with my garlic knots though.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 01, 2017, 12:28:12 PM
>I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?

I add a little plain white sugar to my sauce if too acidic. But years ago I used to add carrots to cooked pasta sauces to add sweetness - carrots have a lot of sugars.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 01, 2017, 12:52:55 PM
>I'm trying to figure the best way to go about a sweet sauce? Just table sugar?

I add a little plain white sugar to my sauce if too acidic. But years ago I used to add carrots to cooked pasta sauces to add sweetness - carrots have a lot of sugars.

My wife makes pasta sauce with carrots, onion, celery, and Sclafani Crushed. It's sweet and good, with no additional sugar.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 01, 2017, 01:08:41 PM
I've backed my way into a weird sort of revelation about salt. I think the bitterness that comes from over-use is different than it was back in the day when we were all using iodized salt. It's hitting me as more of a sense than a taste. a over-powering bitterness. Not the same flavor as a Umami bomb, but similar behavior in that I sense it as being part of something else being bitter. whatever flavor is next in line, I guess. Oregano, hard cheeses, garlic, etc.

The irony is that I actually think it lacks salt and try adding a bit more next time. So begins a spiral downwards. I did a few recent bakes where the only thing left to eliminate was salt and tomatoes. It also got worse just sitting at room temp. Fresh made sauce seeming a bit salty was coming over as bitter and salty. I finally made the connection this past weekend.

Heat made it worse, too. Biting into a slice 8-9 minutes after bake was still too strong, but a few minutes later it had mellowed out. Other sauces and dishes have similar fates. I've tested it on two since I stumbled on to this and results were similar.

Today's test bake was same as always ingredient-wise sans salt. It was much better, though I thought it needed a bit of salt. I'll be increasing it 1/16th tsp per until I hit the spot. I froze some straight 7/11's last week and will use exclusively. Same cheese blend, same hard cheeses and amounts, etc, etc.

My salt use varied a little bit each bake. I did the math to bring it out to a 28oz can. Somewhere between 3/4 and 1-1/2 tsp per 28oz tomatoes. I had been blaming this bitterness, whenever it happened, on whatever flavor happened to peak it's head out from underneath everything. It's made oregano seem like a moving target with no end in site.

Today's was not a perfect bake, but well within the NY flavor range. I'm thinking of testing out different pepper, garlic and oregano amounts before re-instituting added salt to the blend. 

(edit - had the math wrong in my notes) 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 01, 2017, 08:32:11 PM
I thought the cooked sauce I made yesterday tasted great by itself but it didn't do it for me on the pizza. Worked really well with my garlic knots though.

What didn't you like about it on the pie?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on June 01, 2017, 09:12:35 PM
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

Suprema uses a crazy amount of hard cheese. Check it out.

https://youtu.be/hB3OnvydssA
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 01, 2017, 09:44:59 PM
Suprema uses a crazy amount of hard cheese. Check it out.

https://youtu.be/hB3OnvydssA

Harry posted that video on a previous thread. I'm amazed when he goes to get another handful of cheese. It's alot, and the flavor certainly comes through.

It's also interesting that their sauce is thin like some of the other pizzerias.  Despite having chunks, the rest looks super thin.

Link below to the other post. There's a few posts with more info following it.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=43782.msg472968#msg472968
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 01, 2017, 09:59:49 PM
What didn't you like about it on the pie?

Nothing came through. It muddied up with the bake. Gonna try a different approach next bake based on tonights pasta sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on June 02, 2017, 09:11:53 AM
Suprema uses a crazy amount of hard cheese. Check it out.


Wow, do we know or can we speculate what type of hard cheese they use? I've never used that much cheese in my life.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Hermit on June 02, 2017, 09:30:35 AM
Wow, do we know or can we speculate what type of hard cheese they use? I've never used that much cheese in my life.

I'm curious as well, I think I could get away with a lot using some 2yr reggiano and a lot less salt in the sauce.  I def. wanna try this.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 02, 2017, 10:40:17 AM
Maybe I just can't hang because I've made pizzas that were overpowering to the point of being inedible using parmigiano reggiano or pecorino romano. I think I used 2 oz of the reggiano on a pie once based on Tom Lehmann's 75% mozzarella 25% parm suggestion and it was so rich I couldn't eat it. Either it's a more mild domestic cheese or I don't have the palette. If I put as much Locatelli pecorino on my pie as that video there's no way I could eat it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 02, 2017, 10:42:56 AM
I'm curious as well, I think I could get away with a lot using some 2yr reggiano and a lot less salt in the sauce.  I def. wanna try this.

In the thread I linked above, Harry noted that it's powdered, not grated, and mentions they will perform differently.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2017, 04:16:41 PM
For anyone that is interested took the pH of the regular market sauce today.  It is not cooked.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 02, 2017, 04:23:44 PM
For anyone that is interested took the pH of the regular market sauce today.  It is not cooked.

Norma

Norma, that seems high to me. Did you calibrate the meter before using?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 02, 2017, 04:37:15 PM
I would bet they use domestic cheese.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 02, 2017, 04:43:14 PM
Norma, that seems high to me. Did you calibrate the meter before using?

I just measured my uncooked sauce (7/11 with a bit of oregano,  garlic and a sprig of basil.  It was 4.0.  calibrated before use.  I simmered it covered for 20 minutes.  I'm waiting for it to cool for the post measurement.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 02, 2017, 04:56:22 PM
And the final pH is...   4.0.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 02, 2017, 05:24:54 PM
I just measured my uncooked sauce (7/11 with a bit of oregano,  garlic and a sprig of basil.  It was 4.0.  calibrated before use.  I simmered it covered for 20 minutes.  I'm waiting for it to cool for the post measurement.

That sounds about right.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on June 02, 2017, 08:41:21 PM
Norma, that seems high to me. Did you calibrate the meter before using?

Bob,

No, didn't calibrate.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 03, 2017, 11:33:56 AM
My working theory has been to keep the sauce as simple as possible: scalfani crushed, a pinch of sea salt and good oregano and that's it. From a saltiness pov, I have salt in the crust and I typically grate hard cheese post-bake, which gives the pizza all the saltiness it needs. For pepperoni, I often leave out the salt altogether. to my palate (and my wife's), the sauce has good acidity and brightness. I leave olive oil out of the sauce because I always top with high quality evoo, which, IMO, adds a wonderful richness to the pie.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 03, 2017, 11:52:50 AM
My working theory has been to keep the sauce as simple as possible: scalfani crushed, a pinch of sea salt and good oregano and that's it. From a saltiness pov, I have salt in the crust and I typically grate hard cheese post-bake, which gives the pizza all the saltiness it needs. For pepperoni, I often leave out the salt altogether. to my palate (and my wife's), the sauce has good acidity and brightness. I leave olive oil out of the sauce because I always top with high quality evoo, which, IMO, adds a wonderful richness to the pie.

Do you top with EVOO before or after the bake?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 03, 2017, 12:03:35 PM
after. I've mostly been using TJ's Kalamata Olive oil, which is very good and well-priced. I do want to try pre-bake olive oil but I'm still a beginner and as such, changing things up very slowly. And I'm not baking very often for health (really caloric) reasons...my weight is in a decent place but adding a lot of pizza to my diet after 60 does not pass the smell test for reasonability.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 03, 2017, 12:12:03 PM
In lieu of oil, I think I may try post bake melted butter...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 03, 2017, 12:16:15 PM
that will certainly be interesting. We're in the ny style sub-forum, are you thinking people are making pizza in this style with butter? or are you trying to experiment/improve what's already been done?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on June 03, 2017, 12:23:27 PM
My working theory has been to keep the sauce as simple as possible: scalfani crushed, a pinch of sea salt and good oregano and that's it. From a saltiness pov, I have salt in the crust and I typically grate hard cheese post-bake, which gives the pizza all the saltiness it needs. For pepperoni, I often leave out the salt altogether. to my palate (and my wife's), the sauce has good acidity and brightness. I leave olive oil out of the sauce because I always top with high quality evoo, which, IMO, adds a wonderful richness to the pie.

That's exactly what my sauce consists of. Simplicity is key. I want to taste the freshness and brightness of the tomatoes and not camouflage it with all kinds of herbs or spices and what not. Perhaps a pinch of sugar but that's it.

That base makes also a great marinara,...add some garlic, good evoo, fresh basil and simmer lightly.  :)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 03, 2017, 12:34:14 PM
that will certainly be interesting. We're in the ny style sub-forum, are you thinking people are making pizza in this style with butter? or are you trying to experiment/improve what's already been done?

Well I figured Ligurian basil spherification would be too avant garde.  :-D

Just kidding, but I'm mostly just curious. People talk a lot about missing "buttery cheese" and what could be more buttery than butter?  :P

I'm still not sure if I even like EVOO as most of it I buy tends to be more off-putting than pleasant tasting.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 03, 2017, 03:56:57 PM
People talk a lot about missing "buttery cheese" and what could be more buttery than butter?  :P


Impossible to argue against that!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on June 03, 2017, 06:48:27 PM
I can speak to the buttery cheese issue.

It's amazing how an excessive amount of salt and over-handling the cheese when producing can lead to an off product. I've made and tasted quite a lot of mozzarella, fresh and aged.

The best aged stuff I had was from Caputo creamery. It's too expensive to use commercially (IMO) but it tastes like lightly salted milk. The best fresh stuff I've ever had was from pizzeria Bianco...again, tasted like lightly salted milk.

Those slight differences are why there are millions of different cheese pizzas or margheritas in the world but only a few really stand out.

Well I figured Ligurian basil spherification would be too avant garde.  :-D

Just kidding, but I'm mostly just curious. People talk a lot about missing "buttery cheese" and what could be more buttery than butter?  :P

I'm still not sure if I even like EVOO as most of it I buy tends to be more off-putting than pleasant tasting.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 03, 2017, 11:17:48 PM
I can speak to the buttery cheese issue.

It's amazing how an excessive amount of salt and over-handling the cheese when producing can lead to an off product. I've made and tasted quite a lot of mozzarella, fresh and aged.

The best aged stuff I had was from Caputo creamery. It's too expensive to use commercially (IMO) but it tastes like lightly salted milk. The best fresh stuff I've ever had was from pizzeria Bianco...again, tasted like lightly salted milk.

Those slight differences are why there are millions of different cheese pizzas or margheritas in the world but only a few really stand out.

Old school slice joints go with the philosophy that the sauce flavors the mozzarella.  In or on top of the sauce is also hard cheese. 

A simple tomato puree with a little salt will make Grande taste very bland.  Also degree of browning to the mozzarella affects flavor.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 03, 2017, 11:20:36 PM
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

It's about the sauce. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 03, 2017, 11:47:00 PM
It's about the sauce.

I peeked in the storeroom and saw nothing but Saporito.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 04, 2017, 12:00:12 AM
I peeked in the storeroom and saw nothing but Saporito.

Well it's not just saporito and salt.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 04, 2017, 01:18:57 AM
Well it's not just saporito and salt.

I didn't say it was.  I didn't know there were a couple of Saporito products at the time so I didn't pay enough attention to notice if it was paste or sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: csnack on June 04, 2017, 04:07:35 AM
In lieu of oil, I think I may try post bake melted butter...
You can try a butter/evoo combo. That's my favorite sautť blend. If you use just butter try this Land o Lakes Super Premium butter, which is like $7 a lb. They're these long slenderer sticks that come in a black box and it's definitely richer and better tasting than the average butter and I can see that being bomb on pizza. That's a good idea though, I'm gonna try it on my AmericaNY tonight.
Have you tried honey in the sauce for sweetness? I know people do it and I've been meaning to try it myself but I keep forgetting. As you know sugar has no flavor whatsoever other than sweetness, while honey is not only sweeter but also has a depth and richness of flavor and I bet it's good in a sauce. I like a sweet and spicy sauce myself.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 04, 2017, 06:25:39 AM
I didn't say it was.  I didn't know there were a couple of Saporito products at the time so I didn't pay enough attention to notice if it was paste or sauce.

In my earlier post you can see the size of that one chunk of tomato. I wouldn't think that it would have slipped through quality control in a puree or crushed product. The taste and texture of it was that of a "San Marzano" out of a can (though a really good one).

Next time I go shopping I will buy some Alta Cucina to mix with 7/11. I think I really like having some small chunks, but will have to experiment so that I have enough wetness for a good melt.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 04, 2017, 02:31:14 PM
In my earlier post you can see the size of that one chunk of tomato. I wouldn't think that it would have slipped through quality control in a puree or crushed product. The taste and texture of it was that of a "San Marzano" out of a can (though a really good one).

Next time I go shopping I will buy some Alta Cucina to mix with 7/11. I think I really like having some small chunks, but will have to experiment so that I have enough wetness for a good melt.

A popular mix is Saporito + 7/11 or Alta Cucina.  Those tomato chunks probably crushed Alta Cucinas or similar canned whole tomatoes.

Also, if you watch the NY Suprema video above, you can see the sauce is emulsified with a fat of some kind, maybe butter/oil.  The texture and look is not straight out of can. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 04, 2017, 03:08:42 PM
You can try a butter/evoo combo. That's my favorite sautť blend. If you use just butter try this Land o Lakes Super Premium butter, which is like $7 a lb. They're these long slenderer sticks that come in a black box and it's definitely richer and better tasting than the average butter and I can see that being bomb on pizza. That's a good idea though, I'm gonna try it on my AmericaNY tonight.
Have you tried honey in the sauce for sweetness? I know people do it and I've been meaning to try it myself but I keep forgetting. As you know sugar has no flavor whatsoever other than sweetness, while honey is not only sweeter but also has a depth and richness of flavor and I bet it's good in a sauce. I like a sweet and spicy sauce myself.

I've been using this blend on my garlic knots, it comes out pretty good, not sure why I haven't tried it on my pies yet  :-[ I have not tried honey in the sauce, I was making a sauce for a while with brown sugar, smoked sea salt and fresh cracked black pepper though.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 04, 2017, 06:55:52 PM
A popular mix is Saporito + 7/11 or Alta Cucina.  Those tomato chunks probably crushed Alta Cucinas or similar canned whole tomatoes.

Also, if you watch the NY Suprema video above, you can see the sauce is emulsified with a fat of some kind, maybe butter/oil.  The texture and look is not straight out of can.

I love Saporito and Alta Cucina combined.  I hate that I have no choice other than to freeze the leftovers.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 04, 2017, 07:29:49 PM
I love Saporito and Alta Cucina combined.  I hate that I have no choice other than to freeze the leftovers.

I make as many pies as possible for a group of people and then use the leftover tomato to bathe my dogs before shampoo.

$6 for a #10 can here.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 04, 2017, 10:32:15 PM
I  have completely missed NY Suprema! Must have walked right by it a million times!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 05, 2017, 12:04:45 AM
I make as many pies as possible for a group of people and then use the leftover tomato to bathe my dogs before shampoo.

$6 for a #10 can here.

I wouldn't have pegged you as a dog person.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on June 05, 2017, 09:24:24 AM
That's exactly what my sauce consists of. Simplicity is key. I want to taste the freshness and brightness of the tomatoes and not camouflage it with all kinds of herbs or spices and what not. Perhaps a pinch of sugar but that's it.

That base makes also a great marinara,...add some garlic, good evoo, fresh basil and simmer lightly.  :)

I agree that simplicity makes a great pie, but in the context of a NY slice I think it's a little more complicated than that. It's not that we're camouflaging tomatoes with unneeded spices like a DiGiorno might do, but we're looking for that perfect balance of spices so that not one is overpowering the other, and they produce that certain something you just can't put your finger on because is doesn't taste like one specific thing.

A perfect example of this is a shrimp recipe I've been making for a few years now: http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/butterflied-shrimp-with-habanero-tomatillo-salsa (http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/butterflied-shrimp-with-habanero-tomatillo-salsa)
I would have never known so much apple cider vinegar would make a salsa taste so good, but this recipe is so well balanced and if I were to reduce or eliminate it, it would throw the whole thing off. Also, fresh squeezed citrus juices are much better than bottled. With pizza making, I'm learning it's all the same. One small change can have a huge impact on the way the pizza tastes, so I'm on a journey to find that perfect sauce recipe as it is one of the biggest variables we can control.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 05, 2017, 09:35:48 AM


A perfect example of this is a shrimp recipe I've been making for a few years now: http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/butterflied-shrimp-with-habanero-tomatillo-salsa (http://www.myrecipes.com/recipe/butterflied-shrimp-with-habanero-tomatillo-salsa)

That one's in the queue.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on June 05, 2017, 09:51:04 AM
That one's in the queue.

It's so good. I actually make it with salmon more than shrimp. Stick the salmon under the broiler to get some char and it really is one of the most delicious fish recipes I've ever made.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jersey Pie Boy on June 05, 2017, 11:47:54 AM
I was just thinking that it's good that the tomatoes aren't used for dog bathing before  going on the pies.  Margherita a la Canina  :-D
Title: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 05, 2017, 12:35:13 PM
I made a sauce recently with just tomatoes, salt, and sugar that was really good. It was cooked though so the tomato flavor was incredibly intense and savory. Way different from an uncooked tomato sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 05, 2017, 12:40:04 PM
I love Saporito and Alta Cucina combined.  I hate that I have no choice other than to freeze the leftovers.

I haven't graduated to #10 cans, but I don't even use a 28oz whole can at once. I've been freezing the leftovers, but last month I tried something new and that is to put the remaining sauce in a jar and use FoodSaver canning lid accessory to vacuum seal it, then store in the fridge. It's going on 4 weeks and absolutely no sign of mold or infection. I baked with it last night and it the flavor has not had any noticeable change.

Has anyone else here tried this?  I thought I may have read about it here.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 05, 2017, 02:44:09 PM
If you use just butter try this Land o Lakes Super Premium butter, which is like $7 a lb. They're these long slenderer sticks that come in a black box and it's definitely richer and better tasting than the average butter and I can see that being bomb on pizza.

I picked some of that up on sale for about $4/lb.  It was better than I thought it would be and was good competition for the European butters.  I need to make some butter.   We've been getting a lot of rain so the milk is going to be good this week.  I can request the breed my milk comes from and it's gonna be Jersey.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: JD on June 05, 2017, 03:33:53 PM
I haven't graduated to #10 cans, but I don't even use a 28oz whole can at once. I've been freezing the leftovers, but last month I tried something new and that is to put the remaining sauce in a jar and use FoodSaver canning lid accessory to vacuum seal it, then store in the fridge. It's going on 4 weeks and absolutely no sign of mold or infection. I baked with it last night and it the flavor has not had any noticeable change.

Has anyone else here tried this?  I thought I may have read about it here.

Vacuum sealing does not rid of contaminants already in the tomatoes upon exposure to the environment. I personally wouldn't use them after 7 days unless you properly canned the tomatoes by heating them to re-pasteurize. Totally up to you though!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 05, 2017, 05:28:48 PM
Vacuum sealing does not rid of contaminants already in the tomatoes upon exposure to the environment. I personally wouldn't use them after 7 days unless you properly canned the tomatoes by heating them to re-pasteurize. Totally up to you though!

You're right, but it does remove the air in the head space. Although that is probably no more effective than just filling the jar to the top. In the past when storing in a jar, it would start to go off within a week. I think it lasted much longer this time because  I pulled much of the air out, and also because I sanitized the jar and lid and transferred right after opening the can. Not aseptic, but I'm comfortable going for several weeks at least. I'm not sure if any harmful bacteria would grow at fridge temps without popping up the lid.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 05, 2017, 09:35:34 PM
If I leave 1/3 of my sauce chunky instead of blending the entire sauce as usual, I assume I'll need to use more sauce (by volume) as the chunks won't provide the same amount of coverage as a thinner sauce?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 05, 2017, 09:47:59 PM
I love Saporito and Alta Cucina combined.  I hate that I have no choice other than to freeze the leftovers.

Can you describe how you use them? (proportions, method of crushing, etc)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 05, 2017, 11:19:24 PM
Can you describe how you use them? (proportions, method of crushing, etc)

I really can't.  I never do anything the same way twice.  Stick blender, oregano, microwaved garlic, basil, black pepper , crushed red pepper.  Any of those might be deleted.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Giggliato on June 07, 2017, 11:56:03 AM
I want to try fresh garlic, never put it in my sauce. Maybe weigh it?

I usually just put half a minced clove into the sauce, which comes from one of those 50 cent 28 oz cans of whole tomatoes I get at the supermarket. Someone did tell me that on a recent trip to Italy they were placing a small amount of fresh garlic on the pizza after it was baked.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 11, 2017, 04:43:46 PM
I experimented with 3 different sauce bases, all were combinations of 7/11 and Cento San Marzano, but different amounts and different variations of blending/chunkiness. I was surprised that the last minute decision to make an extra chunky version ended up being my favorite. It was 50% 7/11 unblended/as is (a little chunky), 25% Cento tomato pieces quick pulse/chunky, 25% Cento 'water/puree'. I think that blending 7/11 as I've been doing is a bad idea, that it's taking away from the flavor. If I didn't have access to 7/11, I would try this with Sclafani Crushed and a canned whole tomato. I liked these pies a lot. The tomato taste was better, and it even seemed to enhance the oregano flavor. And the melt was very good. (The pie shown below was TF=0.0825, the thickest I've done in a while, I keep inching higher. It had major peel-sticking issues, but I managed to keep it mostly round, but had the crease on the bottom.)


Title: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 11, 2017, 06:42:14 PM
Nice Matt, what was your bake time on that one?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 11, 2017, 07:06:26 PM
Thanks Ryan. I replicated what I did last time. 7:30 total bake time including the last 2:30 on a screen. Stone temp around 475.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 12, 2017, 06:58:55 AM
On the topic of 7/11's and freezing, I find the tomatoes to be very much bright and somewhat tangy coming out of the freezer. I freeze right away. I wonder if that's the difference?

The first batch I tried quite a while ago was not done that way. They were frozen a day later. Still better than many other options, but nothing like the last few batches I have frozen, all right away.


 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 12, 2017, 07:29:43 AM
Matt, that's  a nice looking pie. Other than the crease, is that how you like your bottom crusts? I know you prefer softer.

On the tomato texture front, I like the things you're doing - mixing them up. Some chunks, some not. I wish I could bake the 7/11's straight and still get the cheese/sauce bubbling thing. I can on the BS, but not inside oven consistently. Especially not as I go thicker and thicker crusts. To me, that sauce/cheese bubbling is as high a priority as the crust texture with NY Style. We all know the main reason why it's tougher for us to get that result - the oven - but that just means we have to work harder to get there and be far more precise.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 12, 2017, 09:18:06 AM
On the topic of 7/11's and freezing, I find the tomatoes to be very much bright and somewhat tangy coming out of the freezer. I freeze right away. I wonder if that's the difference?

The first batch I tried quite a while ago was not done that way. They were frozen a day later. Still better than many other options, but nothing like the last few batches I have frozen, all right away.


 

I usually end up freezing leftover 7/11.  I don't think it hurts them too much.  There's better ways to screw up a pizza.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 12, 2017, 11:33:23 AM
I read this thread last night:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.0

it addresses a lot of the questions we've been throwing around. Member November's sauce #2 was of particular interest, Norma seems to have done a lot of experimentation and Tom L weighed in with his views. At this point, I've decided to:
- try olive oil in my sauce
- give November's MAE spice recipe a try
- not cook my sauce (except maybe for sicilian)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: bregent on June 12, 2017, 12:36:09 PM
I read this thread last night:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3735.0

it addresses a lot of the questions we've been throwing around. Member November's sauce #2 was of particular interest, Norma seems to have done a lot of experimentation and Tom L weighed in with his views. At this point, I've decided:
- I will try olive oil in my sauce
- I'm going to give November's MAE spice recipe a try
- I will not cook my sauce (except maybe for sicilian)

I do MAE for my sauce but use olive oil instead of water as I feel I get better extraction of essential oils.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 12, 2017, 06:26:07 PM
I'm interested to try MAE, just haven't got to it yet

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 12, 2017, 06:39:28 PM
Matt, that's  a nice looking pie. Other than the crease, is that how you like your bottom crusts? I know you prefer softer.

On the tomato texture front, I like the things you're doing - mixing them up. Some chunks, some not. I wish I could bake the 7/11's straight and still get the cheese/sauce bubbling thing. I can on the BS, but not inside oven consistently. Especially not as I go thicker and thicker crusts. To me, that sauce/cheese bubbling is as high a priority as the crust texture with NY Style. We all know the main reason why it's tougher for us to get that result - the oven - but that just means we have to work harder to get there and be far more precise.

Thanks Roy. I've never achieved the right result with a straight crushed tomato, even with a high temp 4 minute bake on the BS. I think a watery sauce mixes with the cheese totally different. But what I'm learning is I just need enough water in the sauce, not that the whole sauce has to be watery. This may combine the best of both worlds (tasty sauce and proper melt). I'm still early in my testing, but I strongly recommend trying it.

I definitely like softer crusts, though I'm still learning what my preference is. Possibly a bit more done on the very bottom, but still soft on the inside. I'm still using 5% oil.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on June 13, 2017, 12:35:02 AM
I do MAE for my sauce but use olive oil instead of water as I feel I get better extraction of essential oils.

Yup.  I've tried a lot of different approaches and that's the one I've settled on.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on June 13, 2017, 06:08:39 AM
Yup.  I've tried a lot of different approaches and that's the one I've settled on.

Jonas,

I agree  ^^^

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 13, 2017, 06:56:35 AM
Do you guys add the MAE herbs into the sauce and refrigerate for 6 hours? Or is it ready for immediate use?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 13, 2017, 07:37:46 AM
The MAE thing is all powerful. I sometimes wish I had taken time to come up with a lighter herbed, fresher tomato taste version and protocol. I can imagine making the oil and adding it to the sauce 30-60 minutes pre-bake. I tried the 12 ingredient version a year or so ago and it was potent. Just not what I was looking for at the time. I ended up freezing the rest of the batch and using on Detroiters.

I've also thought of making a batch of the MAE oil and used one of those mini-cube ice trays and just plopped one out whenever I wanted to use it.

Thanks Roy. I've never achieved the right result with a straight crushed tomato, even with a high temp 4 minute bake on the BS. I think a watery sauce mixes with the cheese totally different. But what I'm learning is I just need enough water in the sauce, not that the whole sauce has to be watery. This may combine the best of both worlds (tasty sauce and proper melt). I'm still early in my testing, but I strongly recommend trying it.

I definitely like softer crusts, though I'm still learning what my preference is. Possibly a bit more done on the very bottom, but still soft on the inside. I'm still using 5% oil.
The ones I use straight and unaltered were Mutt's. They worked well at times, but had a lot of standing water. I ended up altering them in a similar fashion to what you have spoke of. I drained them, added 1/2 to 2/3rds of the pulp back into the drained water and hit it with the stick blender. I then added the remaining pulp back in and had a nicely textured, light viscosity sauce in the end.
 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: keylime73 on June 13, 2017, 08:13:14 AM
This is my sauce recipe:

1 can crushed
1 T evoo
1 T balsamic vinegar (the modeno stuff-- not the crazy expensive real deal)
1/2 tsp salt
1/2 tsp anchovy paste
2 tsp oregano
1/4 tsp of fresh cracked black pepper

Fairly simple but I like it a lot.  If you haven't tried anchovy paste you should!

Not sure about pre-heating the spices.  Kind of think that should happen in the oven.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 13, 2017, 09:43:00 AM
Some pizzerias simmer 1/4th the sauce with the oil/herbs/spices/grated cheese and combine it with uncooked pureed crushed tomatoes and some chunks out of can.  Gets a Jungian duality thing going, intense yet fresh.

This is what people did before microwaves existed.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: AndyBern on June 13, 2017, 11:20:21 AM
I've been using 1 tsp each Italian oregano, basil, and fresh-ground black pepper with 28oz uncooked Sclafani crushed tomatoes. I used to use salt and a tiny bit of garlic, but it didn't need it. I might move the basil and pepper from the sauce to the sprinkled herb toppings which currently consists of more basil, marjoram, tarragon, and crushed fennel in a 8/8/1/2 ratio.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 13, 2017, 11:26:47 AM
matt, it's hard to see how you're going to improve off that last bake!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 13, 2017, 01:06:09 PM
Some pizzerias simmer 1/4th the sauce with the oil/herbs/spices/grated cheese and combine it with uncooked pureed crushed tomatoes and some chunks out of can.  Gets a Jungian duality thing going, intense yet fresh.

This is what people did before microwaves existed.

That's what I  often do.  Sweat some minced garlic, tomato paste,  anchovy paste,  crushed red pepper and oregano in olive oil until fragrant.  Add tomatoes and simmer really low for 20 minutes.  I use it straight for an upside down square,  dilute it with uncooked tomatoes for a Sicilian and sometimes dilute it even more for a round pie.

For a NY slice pie, I prefer to not use oil.  I don't think olive oil is appropriate.  Vegetable (soybean) oil is ok,  but it isn't something I keep in the pantry.  Usually boil some minced garlic in a little bit of water in the microwave and add that to an uncooked sauce and sometimes add a little cooked sauce to that if I have it.

I haven't made NY pie in over a year.  I really want to,  but pizza season is over until the fall.  Fortunately, I just found a place in town that makes a damned good pie.  They've been open almost two years.  I don't know how I missed them.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 13, 2017, 01:49:12 PM
That's what I  often do.  Sweat some minced garlic, tomato paste,  anchovy paste,  crushed red pepper and oregano in olive oil until fragrant.  Add tomatoes and simmer really low for 20 minutes.  I use it straight for an upside down square,  dilute it with uncooked tomatoes for a Sicilian and sometimes dilute it even more for a round pie.

For a NY slice pie, I prefer to not use oil.  I don't think olive oil is appropriate.  Vegetable (soybean) oil is ok,  but it isn't something I keep in the pantry.  Usually boil some minced garlic in a little bit of water in the microwave and add that to an uncooked sauce and sometimes add a little cooked sauce to that if I have it.

I haven't made NY pie in over a year.  I really want to,  but pizza season is over until the fall.  Fortunately, I just found a place in town that makes a damned good pie.  They've been open almost two years.  I don't know how I missed them.

I haven't made a NY pie in a while at home after having baked in a deck oven.  It's grandma pizza for me at home. 

Good neighborhood pizza joints can remain in the dark for the longest time.  Here in the boroughs, there are many good places not ranked in many polls but famous within their neighborhood.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 13, 2017, 01:49:47 PM
That's what I  often do.  Sweat some minced garlic, tomato paste,  anchovy paste,  crushed red pepper and oregano in olive oil until fragrant.  Add tomatoes and simmer really low for 20 minutes.  I use it straight for an upside down square,  dilute it with uncooked tomatoes for a Sicilian and sometimes dilute it even more for a round pie.

For a NY slice pie, I prefer to not use oil.  I don't think olive oil is appropriate.  Vegetable (soybean) oil is ok,  but it isn't something I keep in the pantry.  Usually boil some minced garlic in a little bit of water in the microwave and add that to an uncooked sauce and sometimes add a little cooked sauce to that if I have it.

I haven't made NY pie in over a year.  I really want to,  but pizza season is over until the fall.  Fortunately, I just found a place in town that makes a damned good pie.  They've been open almost two years.  I don't know how I missed them.
Any chance the place you like is Gennaro's? I've heard good things about it but don't get to Saratoga often so I've never tried it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 13, 2017, 01:56:09 PM
I haven't made a NY pie in a while at home after having baked in a deck oven.  It's grandma pizza for me at home. 

Good neighborhood pizza joints can remain in the dark for the longest time.  IMO here in the boroughs, the good places usually aren't the loudest or ranked in many polls.

Are you still using your same grandma formulation you posted a few months back? Can you talk about the differences between your NY sauce and your Grandma style sauce?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 13, 2017, 02:06:03 PM
Are you still using your same grandma formulation you posted a few months back? Can you talk about the differences between your NY sauce and your Grandma style sauce?

I like a grandma pizza with fresh simple flavors, so I don't do much to the sauce add salt, a bit of oregano and add fresh basil as a topping.  My NY pizza sauce is bit more complicated, basically low simmered saporito + water with the usual suspects, salt, pepper, dried oregano, garlic, oil/butter, and romano powder remove, emulsify further with immersion blender and then add to fresh 7/11 puree for brightness.   Sometimes I just simmer the whole thing together.  Total 20 minutes or so low heat.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 13, 2017, 02:35:58 PM
I like a grandma pizza with fresh simple flavors, so I don't do much to the sauce add salt, a bit of oregano and add fresh basil as a topping.  My NY pizza sauce is bit more complicated, basically low simmered saporito + water with the usual suspects, salt, pepper, dried oregano, garlic, oil/butter, and romano powder remove, emulsify further with immersion blender and then add to fresh 7/11 puree for brightness.   Sometimes I just simmer the whole thing together.  Total 20 minutes or so low heat.

So your grandma pie uses an uncooked sauce? And no oil in the grandma sauce or garlic?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 13, 2017, 02:56:21 PM
So your grandma pie uses an uncooked sauce? And no oil in the grandma sauce or garlic?

I give a good amount with the extra virgin olive oil can on top of the pie back and forth and if doing garlic, thin sliced garlic slivers as a topping.  These days I like to keep ingredients separated for this style.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on June 13, 2017, 03:04:29 PM
Any chance the place you like is Gennaro's? I've heard good things about it but don't get to Saratoga often so I've never tried it.

Gennaro's is good (and within walking distance of my son's football practice field :)).  Especially the margherita.  Really good sauce - Alta Cucina.  I wouldn't order the square again.  I'm talking about I Love NY Pizza on Congress St..  I've only been once, so I can't vouch for the consistency.   The guys that were working when I went were hustling at a breakneck pace.  I was the only one in the store, but they were slammed with orders.  I could tell they take their job seriously.  I'm looking forward to going back.  I wasn't impressed with some of the other locations,  but this one was different.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on June 13, 2017, 03:10:00 PM
Gennaro's is good (and within walking distance of my son's football practice field :)).  Especially the margherita.  Really good sauce - Alta Cucina.  I wouldn't order the square again.  I'm talking about I Love NY Pizza on Congress St..  I've only been once, so I can't vouch for the consistency.   The guys that were working when I went were hustling at a breakneck pace.  I was the only one in the store, but they were slammed with orders.  I could tell they take their job seriously.  I'm looking forward to going back.  I wasn't impressed with some of the other locations,  but this one was different.
It is weird how much the quality varies by location. I'll have to check both out sometime.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 13, 2017, 05:54:35 PM
I give a good amount with the extra virgin olive oil can on top of the pie back and forth and if doing garlic, thin sliced garlic slivers as a topping.  These days I like to keep ingredients separated for this style.

Does sauce tend to vary between grandma styles? Because some pics look like a super hearty thick cooked sauce, and others look like hand crushed san marzano style tomatoes. I like the separate topping style too though, my last pie I used garlic in the form of an infused oil drizzle post bake which I liked a lot. I think I will try these Cento Chefs Cut tomato filets on my next grandma pie. Boars Head fresh mozz. Garlic oil. Fresh Basil. Lots of hard cheese blend.

I'm really wanting to try Einkorn flour for a homestyle square pie.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 16, 2017, 10:13:56 AM
Does sauce tend to vary between grandma styles? Because some pics look like a super hearty thick cooked sauce, and others look like hand crushed san marzano style tomatoes. I like the separate topping style too though, my last pie I used garlic in the form of an infused oil drizzle post bake which I liked a lot. I think I will try these Cento Chefs Cut tomato filets on my next grandma pie. Boars Head fresh mozz. Garlic oil. Fresh Basil. Lots of hard cheese blend.

I'm really wanting to try Einkorn flour for a homestyle square pie.

This is a style without a standard.  It has alot of variation from what I've experienced here in NYC.  Alot of slice joints make them now, but is often not the alpha product, meaning it's something half-assed to have it available using the same dough and sauce as their regular slice pies.  Places that specialize in grandma pies tend to be more rustic and homestyle, which is the way I like it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on June 16, 2017, 10:26:24 AM
So your grandma pie uses an uncooked sauce?

Yeah, uncooked. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 17, 2017, 11:03:55 AM
Is dried basil an authentic NY pizza ingredient?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 18, 2017, 09:14:36 PM
I don't think so.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2017, 09:09:51 PM
...
I think I'm looking for a sweeter sauce to balance out the saltiness of the crust and cheese, but also with enough zing and acid to make the flavors pop. What's the trick there beyond naturally sweet tomatoes? Regular old sugar? Fruit juice? Coca Cola? Honey?


I want to explore this question that Ryan posted when starting the thread. (I commented on my inspiration in the Queens pizzeria thread.) I may try a bit of grape juice next bake. Seems kind of crazy, but I won't know for sure unless I try it.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 24, 2017, 09:14:52 PM
Is dried basil an authentic NY pizza ingredient?

I don't think so.

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I'd guess that some use it, but not to the point where it becomes a dominant flavor like oregano sometimes is. I may try adding a bit again. In the past I found that it added a nice sweetness.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 24, 2017, 09:34:03 PM
I want to explore this question that Ryan posted when starting the thread. (I commented on my inspiration in the Queens pizzeria thread.) I may try a bit of grape juice next bake. Seems kind of crazy, but I won't know for sure unless I try it.
Do you use any sugar? It's become a key for me and lets me broaden my thickness envelope a bit. I know some folks turn their nose up at sugar in sauce, but I can count the bitter sauces on one hand since added nearly a 1/2 tsp per 140g - 170g of sauce. Knocking my salt down some opened things up big time. A very well layered flavor these days.

I'm going to give it a few more weeks to make sure before posting the final recipe. I'm experimenting with herb amounts. Mostly adjusting the Italian Seasonings blend I'm using.

I have, though, re-introduced mint back into things. I took it out a good while back just to simplify things and never put it back. It is really working well for me. I'm at 1/16th for my 14-inchers and almost 1/8th for my 15-1/2 inchers. It does not taste like mint. It does give it a fresh sort of herby sweetness to it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 25, 2017, 09:25:40 AM
Do you use any sugar? It's become a key for me and lets me broaden my thickness envelope a bit. I know some folks turn their nose up at sugar in sauce, but I can count the bitter sauces on one hand since added nearly a 1/2 tsp per 140g - 170g of sauce. Knocking my salt down some opened things up big time. A very well layered flavor these days.
...

Yes, I use 1/4 tsp sugar per 14" pie. I tried a 1/2 tsp about 2 months ago, my notes say that "I didn't mind the extra sugar, but liked my regular sauce better". But I agree, the simplest and likely most widely used approach would be to dump some sugar in.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on June 25, 2017, 10:13:13 AM
I've been increasing my sugar slowly over the past few months. The counter balance is the 1/8th tsp of black pepper. For my 14-inchers, I went from 3/8th -> 7/16th eventually up to   7/16 -> 5/8th. The deciding factors are the age of the tomatoes out of the can and the paste-taste factor. I also use the high end when ever I want a thicker viscosity sauce.

I saw something at RD the other day and picked up a can. Bonta Pizza Sauce w/Basil, and it had "Extra Sweet" displayed right below it on the label. I'm going to try some as part of blend kind of like how I did with a big batch of 7/11's and Saporito Heavy Pizza Sauce. I wish I had thought to get a can of that company's 6-in-1's to try with it. Not right away. Going to do some research to see how folks use it first. Main reason is to get the tomato/Bonta blend right straight away so that I can blend and freeze right away without letting a sauce age and losing it's zing. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on June 25, 2017, 02:22:04 PM
I want to explore this question that Ryan posted when starting the thread. (I commented on my inspiration in the Queens pizzeria thread.) I may try a bit of grape juice next bake. Seems kind of crazy, but I won't know for sure unless I try it.

I have one test in with white grape juice, but it was a cooked sauce. I might try it again with an uncooked, and use it to thin the Sclafani crushed just a touch.

I'll chime in with my 2 cents. I'd guess that some use it, but not to the point where it becomes a dominant flavor like oregano sometimes is. I may try adding a bit again. In the past I found that it added a nice sweetness.


My last bake I added too much red pepper flake and it stole all my sweetness. I want that sweet and zesty sauce. I should also try cooking these Sclafani's down to paste, then reconstituting them and see how that comes out. That's the closest way I can get to something like Saporito, like what Norma uses.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on June 29, 2017, 11:53:43 PM
I tried a local pizza joint today that had been mentioned in a best-of-county article. The crust was beautifully rendered with a little crunch yet soft and tender. The cheese had a beautiful melt but was one-note and a little bland. The sauce was so thin that I had to double check to see if there was any at all. In the end, it ate almost like an Italian quesadilla and wasn't very interesting. I'm now more convinced than ever that sauce is the key ingredient.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 30, 2017, 07:17:49 AM
I'm a little unsure of how to determine the amount of grape juice to try. If I've been using 1/4 tsp white sugar, and there's 4 grams of carbs from sugar in a tsp, then I'm adding 1 gram of carb sugars.

A cup of white grape juice has 32 grams of sugar (purple juice is double), which implies1.5 tsp would have 1 gram.

But it seems strange to me that 1.5 tsp juice is enough to replace 1/4 tsp sugar. Though I haven't eaten plain sugar recently, so maybe it's not as strong as I'm thinking?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on June 30, 2017, 10:10:12 AM
I'm a little unsure of how to determine the amount of grape juice to try. If I've been using 1/4 tsp white sugar, and there's 4 grams of carbs from sugar in a tsp, then I'm adding 1 gram of carb sugars.

A cup of white grape juice has 32 grams of sugar (purple juice is double), which implies1.5 tsp would have 1 gram.

But it seems strange to me that 1.5 tsp juice is enough to replace 1/4 tsp sugar. Though I haven't eaten plain sugar recently, so maybe it's not as strong as I'm thinking?

Juice is high in fructose, which has about 1.5x [citation needed] the sweetening power of sucrose (table sugar), so that may be a factor.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 03, 2017, 07:23:26 PM
2 sauce-related things I'll mention regarding my bake last night.

I used as much as 1+1/3 tbs of white grape juice.  It was fine, but not a big difference. Maybe i didn't use enough. Or maybe I need to be more accepting of subtle changes.

When enjoying a leftover slice reheated in the toaster oven today, I was thinking about how good the flavors were. The oregano and garlic may have been more pronounced. Perhaps the overnight chill in the fridge and/or second bake helped enhance the flavors. I may try a leftover slice side by side with a fresh one next bake. This could let to more sauce changes.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 03, 2017, 08:54:50 PM
My problem is the sauce tastes good by itself but gets lost on the pizza. I think my oregano is past its prime and fouling my experiments.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 03, 2017, 10:02:57 PM
My sauce is awful to taste by itself. Sooooo good as part of a pie, though. I don't even taste it anymore. Some cross between bitter, sweet, spicy and salty for about 30 minutes and then mellows some. Tolerable after that.

I did determine the two levels of un-needed stuff if I'm rushed. The Umami elements obviously not needed and the oil isn't required. Both do offer a bit, though. I still do it all most of the time. I'm pretty much down to finally deciding amounts of mint and pepper. I think I have 2-1/2 weeks left for the test of time. I'm betting if I bump the pepper up a bit that my family would dig it even more than they do.  If I do that, though, I gotta start the test of time test over again.  :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 03, 2017, 10:03:35 PM
2 sauce-related things I'll mention regarding my bake last night.

I used as much as 1+1/3 tbs of white grape juice.  It was fine, but not a big difference. Maybe i didn't use enough. Or maybe I need to be more accepting of subtle changes.

When enjoying a leftover slice reheated in the toaster oven today, I was thinking about how good the flavors were. The oregano and garlic may have been more pronounced. Perhaps the overnight chill in the fridge and/or second bake helped enhance the flavors. I may try a leftover slice side by side with a fresh one next bake. This could let to more sauce changes.
Interesting the grape juice didn't make a huge difference. I was wondering about that today as I added a bit of water to my Jersey Fresh Tomatoes today. Something with flavor instead of plain water sounds like a plus.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 04, 2017, 10:20:24 AM
A couple things to share in case it helps anyone with their crushed tomatoes.

On emulsifying/grinding:
We've had some discussion about texture of crushed tomatoes and various ways to take some of the chunkiness out or even to smoothen entirely. Some do not like to use a boat motor to emulsify because it looses too much. Makes sense. I've evolved into a sort of cross between a food processor's puling action and the boat motor. My tomatoes come out nicely textured every time now.

I pour my tomatoes into a container than will allow me to hold the boat motor at a bit of an angle without splattering my kitchen with tomato spray. With that, I simply turn on the boat motor for 1-2 seconds, turn it off, do a brief stir and repeat. After a bit it becomes up to one second pulses at the most. The texture is always nice nowadays. I do like it with bigger bits than some, but have certainly gotten very small bits doing this.

On freezing:
Related to above, I do not "pulsify" my tomatoes before freezing. I have, and I've paid the price. As everyone knows, the freeing process will variably break down the structure of the tomatoes. If I "pulsify" before freezing, they come out way too thin at best. At it's worse, it's all ruined watery mess. I found that out the hard way, of course.  :-[ 

I've sort of applied that rule to any sort of blend. I leave it on the thick side going in. Coming out, I adjust with the "pulsification" process and finally adding the amount of water needed at the very end.

Anyhow, just a couple of minor technique things I do. It makes almost any variety of tomatoes usable for me, save for over-watery ones that need more work.   

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 04, 2017, 12:26:42 PM
I feel like I need to try a food mill, for that smooth passata style sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on July 04, 2017, 12:59:18 PM
I drain and push crushed scalfani through a medium mesh kitchen sieve with a big wooden spoon. It removes the seeds and bigger pieces of skin. I have also used crushed scalfani right out of the can (with seasonings). it was very good but I did increase the tf and added a bit more cheese.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 05, 2017, 01:44:01 PM
The one thing my weird little pulsify will not take care of is seeds. that, and bits of skin or whatever else remain sticks out like a sore thumb. Kind of ugly tomatoes come to think of it. Today's edition was day-4 from freezer Jersey Fresh. The same ones I used on Moday. Two days made them bitter and lacking any real positive.

I get get daring on home alone days. Stuff I'd never try when family around or neighbors over. So I tried to salvage thise tomatoes. I upped the sugar, mint and pepper each by 50%. I resisted all temptation to increase salt, which used to be first line defense. Man oh man was it ever good. I've never succeeded in getting tomatoes this bitter to come out well. It was very much my pie and my flavor, but the little push the oregano got from whatever pushed it up was spot on wonderful.

135g sauce crushed tomatoes I described above. This isn't my go to, but will try mint and pepper increase later. No Umami or garlic today. I do think that the sugar and pepper is what really helped salvage the tomatoes. 
3/4 tsp sugar
1/8 tsp salt
3/16 tsp pepper
1 tsp Olive Oil
1/16 tsp "Italian Seasonings"
1/8 tsp oregano
1/8 tsp mint


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 09, 2017, 12:29:35 PM
Just sharing something. I accidently tried something that I had intended to try on purpose at some point, which is to give the tomatoes a short "cooking" in the microwave.

I forgot to take a sauce out last night to thaw. This morning and proceeded to do the microwave defrost. It works fine and dandy all the time. I normally undershoot it at first just in case I go overboard. The if it does not thaw completely and a small bit of stirring won't break it up, I just nuke-defrost it for something like ".1lbs" to finish. Still very cool to the touch with hints if iciness.

Today I added .3 because it did not seem near normal. I don't know how long it went on, but it was too long. It started to get into the very early stages of cooking. Almost steaming. It thinned out a great bit and was quite warm. The flavor hit was the worst thing, though. That bright 7/11 "zing" or twang was gone. I decided to bake it anyhow just to see what would happen. I mixed my standard recipe with no UMAMI addition.

The result was that my sauce was not as good as normal. It didn't punch through like it normally does. No zestiness. It was not bad, but not as good as normal. I think I hit a no man's land with it. That is to say that if I was going to do a pre-cooked strategy on purpose, cook it long enough to make a difference. Oddly enough, it looked normal at the end, right before applying the sauce to the skin. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 09, 2017, 01:06:58 PM
Just sharing something. I accidently tried something that I had intended to try on purpose at some point, which is to give the tomatoes a short "cooking" in the microwave.
....

Very interesting. I was actually thinking alot about this yesterday. I'm tempted to try pre-cooking, but I'd like to do it with   very small amount of tomato. (As little as 1/3 the amount of sauce I put on one 14" pie). Microwave would be an easy way to go.

Sounds like this was just tomato microwaved right? I want to see what happens with oregano and parm.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 09, 2017, 01:10:04 PM
Craig has mentioned when he gets a canned tomato without basil, he microwaves a bit of the tomato with some fresh basil just enough to infuse the flavor and adds to the sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: werty20 on July 09, 2017, 06:52:38 PM
anyone try making sauce using fresh tomatoes ?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 09, 2017, 07:59:17 PM
Very interesting. I was actually thinking alot about this yesterday. I'm tempted to try pre-cooking, but I'd like to do it with   very small amount of tomato. (As little as 1/3 the amount of sauce I put on one 14" pie). Microwave would be an easy way to go.

Sounds like this was just tomato microwaved right? I want to see what happens with oregano and parm.
Hermit, this was just doing little more than warming up plain ground 7/11 tomatoes in the nuke.

Roy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 10, 2017, 07:05:53 AM

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema....

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin.


It's fair to say based on the pictures below that they are using Saporito Filetto di Pomodoro (strips of peeled tomato).

Any idea what the other products are in the back of the second photo?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 10, 2017, 08:43:48 AM
It's fair to say based on the pictures below that they are using Saporito Filetto di Pomodoro (strips of peeled tomato).

Any idea what the other products are in the back of the second photo?
Thanks for sharing that one, Matt.  :chef:

Roy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on July 10, 2017, 11:20:27 AM
Second row looks like Bonta tomato paste...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 10, 2017, 11:30:12 AM
Second row looks like Bonta tomato paste...

Awesome, nice one Steve!

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 10, 2017, 11:39:17 AM
It's fair to say based on the pictures below that they are using Saporito Filetto di Pomodoro (strips of peeled tomato).

Any idea what the other products are in the back of the second photo?

I see that a few boxes are upside down. Has anyone tried this?   Do you think they open them that way or do they invert them before opening?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 10, 2017, 11:49:09 AM
I see that a few boxes are upside down. Has anyone tried this?   Do you think they open them that way or do they invert them before opening?

Not only that, but they are in the sun!

Seriously though, after spending a lot of time hand splitting whole tomatoes to drain the water out, I like the idea of using tomato filets.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Castiglione on July 12, 2017, 03:33:35 AM
Not only that, but they are in the sun!

Seriously though, after spending a lot of time hand splitting whole tomatoes to drain the water out, I like the idea of using tomato filets.

My recipe Is Two Cans Of whole peeled San Marzano Tomatoes(DOP CERTIFIED), whole Tomatoes are best because the least process to the tomatoe the best,strain juice using a mesh strainer and a bowl to catch the juice, remove all seeds then rinse. Save the juice I strained of the tomatoes, use the juice in a small pot and one tablespoon Kosher Salt one tablespoon dried oregano, teaspoon of dry basil, one tablespoon of granulated garlic, not powder. And half a teaspoon of crushed red pepper (be careful it can ruin the sauce if you use to much!) Then half a teaspoon of anchovie paste, lastly a tablespoon of sugar. Cook the juice down till it turns into what looks like sauce from a can about 40 min on medium low heat. Next take one Italian style sun-dried tomato in olive oil and puree it in a food processor, then add the San Marzano Tomatoes to the food processor. Mix the juice you cooked into a sauce (NOTE Let the sauce cool down to room temperature so they don't cook the San Marzano tomatoes) with the San Marzano Tomatoes and add the puree sun-dried tomato, add one tablespoon freshly minced garlic, 2 tablespoons of extra virgin olive oil, lastly mince four whole basil leaves mix into the sauce add half a cup of water or desired thickness top with one teaspoon of black pepper or freshly ground. One 8oz Ladle of sauce for 18" pizza. When you add the sauce to the pizza have a mixture of Romano Cheese and Oregano 50/50 by volume,top the sauce with this then add the mozzarella. This allows the oregano to burst when the Mozzarella melts with the Romano Cheese and Gives that Authentic NY Style Taste. I hope you Use Low Moisture WHOLE milk Mozzarella!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 12, 2017, 07:16:32 AM
My recipe Is...


Many thanks for sharing, and welcome to the forum  :chef:

Do you ever put a hard cheese (Romano or Reggiano) in the pot to simmer with the other ingredients, or do you stick with only Romano on top of the sauce?

How long has your family used this recipe? Has it evolved much over time?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 12, 2017, 04:39:34 PM
Not only that, but they are in the sun!

Seriously though, after spending a lot of time hand splitting whole tomatoes to drain the water out, I like the idea of using tomato filets.

You can fit a lot more filets in a can than whole tomatoes so it's logistically superior. Check out Stanislaus 74/40 or 80/40 - I mentioned them earlier in this thread. Cento Chefs Cut is the only retail version I have seen.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on July 14, 2017, 10:13:56 AM
You can fit a lot more filets in a can than whole tomatoes so it's logistically superior. Check out Stanislaus 74/40 or 80/40 - I mentioned them earlier in this thread. Cento Chefs Cut is the only retail version I have seen.

Saporito Filetto di Pomodori is basically strips of Alta Cucina packed in juice.  Similar net tomato weight just a little less juice.  They use the broken tomatoes to make this product and $1-2 cheaper than AltaCucinas.  The filets are also softer.  NY Suprema has 4-5 different red sauce for their different pizzas and the Fileto di Pomodori most likely their base tomato product.  Different combination of ingredients, some cooked some not, some slow roasted some combined with other tomato products (Bonta is a heavy paste) for their different pizzas.   They have 3 different squares with different sauces.

The 80/40 definitely gets alot more tomato vs. juice.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 18, 2017, 08:46:49 AM
Anyone using or have tried a teensy bit of cayenne pepper in the sauce? A very small amount, like what might be used in some ATK recipe to add a tiny touch of zing to the flavor. Nobody knows it's there kind of thing. 

Roy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 18, 2017, 09:30:18 AM
Anyone using or have tried a teensy bit of cayenne pepper in the sauce? A very small amount, like what might be used in some ATK recipe to add a tiny touch of zing to the flavor. Nobody knows it's there kind of thing. 

Roy

I almost always add a pinch of crushed red pepper.  Just for zing, not discernable heat.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on July 18, 2017, 10:57:09 PM
Should the sauce on a square be different from a round pie? I know some NY places have a different Sicilian sauce - how common is this?

the crappy dolla slice places use the same tomato out of a can workflow.  Most pizzerias know how to make dough, it's the sauce that sells the pizza.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on July 18, 2017, 11:22:49 PM
Basically Joe's of NY the most expensive dolla slice on the planet cos Carrie Bradshaw liked it
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 19, 2017, 01:06:49 AM
the crappy dolla slice places use the same tomato out of a can workflow.  Most pizzerias know how to make dough, it's the sauce that sells the pizza.

I'm still working on coming up with a great sauce. I remember every pizza place being identifiable by the sauce. It's not as easy as people make it out to be to figure out a killer pizza sauce though. It's kind of hard to predict how it will actually come out on a cooked pizza.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 19, 2017, 06:36:22 AM
.........Most pizzerias know how to make dough.......
Down here it's the crust that gets screwed up big time. Well the other stuff, too. Most of the town went to that "elite" thin, which is OK if done well, but usually isn't.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on July 19, 2017, 07:18:46 AM
Just a few comments from a man that came to market yesterday to try the pizza.  He fussed about about how local people were telling him to try the market pizza.  I let him taste the sauce before it was thinned down.  He said that was the secret to the pizza.  I said it isn't just the sauce, but the way dressings are applied, the crust, the way the pizza is opened and baked, and everything has to be in balance to have a good tasting pizza.  After the man tried two slices he purchased a whole pizza to take home.  He was so full of himself in telling Liz and I how rich him and his family are and telling me he has a proposal for me to open a pizzeria instead of making pizzas at market.  I asked what else the proposal was and what he basically told me it was for him to open only a take out pizza business, with only two people and for me to make all of the pizzas.  I said that is nuts because there is no way I could make pizzas everyday.  :-D  He wants to have a meeting with me, but in the end know it won't go anywhere.  He also asked Liz if she would be willing to make the pizzas.  Liz said no way because making pizzas is too hard of work to do  :).

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 19, 2017, 07:42:44 AM
I'm still working on coming up with a great sauce. I remember every pizza place being identifiable by the sauce. It's not as easy as people make it out to be to figure out a killer pizza sauce though. It's kind of hard to predict how it will actually come out on a cooked pizza.
(note) Below ended up being a more generalized dialing in and what the importance of a specific and consistent crust made to me in my kitchen, stone, ovens, etc, as it pertained to my sauce quest.  (end note)

Early on in my quest, I was able to latched on to a thread or a small hint of the flavor that hit my pizza memory button. It would not happen every time, but enough to keep going forward. I never really understood how the crust can affect the flavor. I don't mean the confluence of crust flavor with sauce and cheese (and so on). I mean how the crust helps to cook the sauce (in our ovens).

I'm sure this analogy is technically wrong, but it does illustrate what I'm feeling and seeing in my oven(s). The crust acts like a capacitor in electricity. It gets the heat from the stone and uses much of it to cook itself. It also passes through some of that heat to the sauce. In a way, it helps control the heat. If all is well and what's coming from above is good, the sauce cooks a certain way. If it's too thin or too wide open and too airy, the crust passes more heat to the sauce and it boils differently. If the stone steel is too thin or not saturated, it runs out of heat and less heat comes up through and makes you rely on top heat. That's bad territory for us baking at home for reasons hashed out often.

My most recent version of dough regimen (still not posted) does a lot better job of this than the one I posted in January. Bake to bake is ridiculously consistent. The biggest fail potential is a combination of not being strong enough to stay dense(ish), mostly due to the high amount of yeast activity and not controlling the crumb air/gas pocket sizes at stretch. What this does and how it relates is that I had a bake to bake, batch to batch canvas in which to develop my sauce. It became a matter of time to dial in. It as some really valuable time, too, as it also heed me identify a couple of failure points of my sauce and ho to avoid. All this never would have happened it I didn't make other things consistent somewhat close to a zero-change environment. 

I know a week to week to bake dough and pie style is not your thing. It's just that it made things so much easier. The result is that I can use my same sauce for .070TF to .0975TF and have only minimal taste differences in the end. It ended up working the other way, too. Nailing my sauce and has allowed me to explore bake protocols with a big degree of confidence knowing my sauce would be within reason. In the end, it helps for diagnosis, too, in case something does go wrong.

Sorry for the long winded post.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 20, 2017, 12:09:23 PM
Just a few comments from a man that came to market yesterday to try the pizza.  He fussed about about how local people were telling him to try the market pizza.  I let him taste the sauce before it was thinned down.  He said that was the secret to the pizza.  I said it isn't just the sauce, but the way dressings are applied, the crust, the way the pizza is opened and baked, and everything has to be in balance to have a good tasting pizza.  After the man tried two slices he purchased a whole pizza to take home.  He was so full of himself in telling Liz and I how rich him and his family are and telling me he has a proposal for me to open a pizzeria instead of making pizzas at market.  I asked what else the proposal was and what he basically told me it was for him to open only a take out pizza business, with only two people and for me to make all of the pizzas.  I said that is nuts because there is no way I could make pizzas everyday.  :-D  He wants to have a meeting with me, but in the end know it won't go anywhere.  He also asked Liz if she would be willing to make the pizzas.  Liz said no way because making pizzas is too hard of work to do  :).

Norma
I forgot to respond to this the other day. You get yourself into some great situations there. All good stuff. I can picture that guy in my head. I betchyu he's got half dozen failed pyramid schemes under his belt. Good stuff, Norma.  :-D

The next guy - tem him you didn't go dumpster diving to make HIM money.  ;D 

Roy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 20, 2017, 12:33:58 PM
Anyone using or have tried a teensy bit of cayenne pepper in the sauce? A very small amount, like what might be used in some ATK recipe to add a tiny touch of zing to the flavor. Nobody knows it's there kind of thing. 

Roy
I stepped up to the plate and became the gunniea pig. Now I can't back away from the plate. Boy oh boy oh boy oh boy. Exactly what I hoped for. I used 1/64th of cayenne pepper. (Very small amount.) It delivered in a big way.

Here's today's sauce, which was enough for 135g. (about 4-1/2 ounces)
7/11 tomatoes (slightly "pulsified" 3 days ago)
1 tsp - Olive Oil
1/2 tsp - Water (viscosity purposes)
3/16 tsp - Oregano
1/16 tsp - Italian Seasoning
1/4 tsp - Mint*
3/4 tsp - Sugar*
1/8 tsp - Salt
3/16 tsp - Ground Black Pepper
1/64th tsp - Cayenne Pepper

This delivered in spades. Not at all too spicy. I could hide the cayenne existence from anyone in small amounts like this, but delivers a tough of spiciness to a different part of the palate. It was my sauce for sure, but delivered aggressively. I don't know how else to describe it. I whole heartedly give it high recommendations. THIS is the brightness I was looking for when experimenting with a few kinds of Citric Acid. I even mentioned it, but never tried. It's probably good I didn't try it, because I got it to stand out without it just makes it better when I added it. 

I do not believe I would add it to any sautťing of pastes and stuff. Crushed Red was bad enough on me when I tried it.

The tomatoes were 3 days removed from the freezer. The taste changes, as everyone knows. My adjustments for this are reflected in the measurements above. They were marked by the *'s. The sugar was increased twice. Once for balance of the cayenne and once for being 33 days out of the freezer. The total additional sugar was 1/4tsp. I increased the mint by 1/16th tsp. I've done this before, so knew what to expect.

One final note. I always make my sauce within 2 hours of launch, and no go to the fridge. Time and cold changes everything.

All that, and satellite radio played Disco Duck. Does it get any better?  :-D :-D

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on July 20, 2017, 04:40:17 PM
I forgot to respond to this the other day. You get yourself into some great situations there. All good stuff. I can picture that guy in my head. I betchyu he's got half dozen failed pyramid schemes under his belt. Good stuff, Norma.  :-D

The next guy - tem him you didn't go dumpster diving to make HIM money.  ;D 

Roy

Roy,

You might not believe how many proposals I have had, and they all had to do with pizza.  My good friend ďFunkyĒ came not to long after the other guy.  He said he also wants to put up money to open something like the other guy mentioned.  Funky has been a friend of mine since running the caramel popcorn stand.  At least Funky said to first get a lawyer and say what I would want.   I probably will fade into the nowhere land after stopping to make pizzas at market.

Lol about telling the next guy I didn't go dumpster diving to make him money.  :-D


Sorry to get off-topic.  Didn't even say anything about NY sauce.   :-[

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on July 21, 2017, 08:38:15 AM
Down here it's the crust that gets screwed up big time. Well the other stuff, too. Most of the town went to that "elite" thin, which is OK if done well, but usually isn't.

It's the same with bagels.  I can't find decent NY style bagels outside of NY.

I spent 3 weeks in LA recently, and tried lots of so called "NY style" pizzas, including the LA Joe's which is related to the original Joe's in NY.  The crust is very different, so is the sauce.  I tasted weird hints of cinnamon.  Even the hotdogs in NY taste unique compared to hot dog stands in LA, might be the water which they only change once a month in NYC.



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on July 21, 2017, 10:18:37 AM
It's the same with bagels.  I can't find decent NY style bagels outside of NY.

I spent 3 weeks in LA recently, and tried lots of so called "NY style" pizzas, including the LA Joe's which is related to the original Joe's in NY.  The crust is very different, so is the sauce.  I tasted weird hints of cinnamon.  Even the hotdogs in NY taste unique compared to hot dog stands in LA, might be the water which they only change once a month in NYC.
There were 4 common food items I kept hearing from my fellow transplants when I moved down south in 1985. Pizza, subs(rolls), bagels and Buffalo wings. We were fortunate to eventually get a bagel shop opened up guy from NYC. Alas, most niche hole in the wall breakfast food places go under here. The lines on weekend mornings were impressive, though.

Too bad you couldn't find a representative pizza sample some of our SoCal friends who have never been east of the Rockies to try.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 04, 2018, 02:57:15 PM
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 05, 2018, 01:21:44 AM
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.

Welcome to the club! Killer looking slice, always great to hear when people are getting closer.

I like to add the oregano with the tomato instead of the oil myself. Sometimes I simmer half of the oregano with the sauce, and then add the rest of the oregano when it comes off the heat or when I'm topping the pie.

I don't use onion in my sauce and use a decent bit more sugar. Still tinkering though for sure.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 05, 2018, 07:39:28 AM
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

There was a point in time when cooking tomatoes for a sauce that they were at their brightest. Bright, as in that brightness we get when our tomatoes cook enough on the pizza. I only tried a few times for NY Style, but was never able to hold on to that brightness. Even removed it from the pan and vaguely remember once going to freezer for a few minutes to slow the cooking down. I have not, however, under-cooked in hopes that the tomatoes still had that brightness deep within, somehow.

How much sauce was on that 14"-er?

No rule about putting on oregano in two different stages. There are distinctive outcomes from each. Why not?   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 05, 2018, 08:53:32 AM
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

There was a point in time when cooking tomatoes for a sauce that they were at their brightest. Bright, as in that brightness we get when our tomatoes cook enough on the pizza. I only tried a few times for NY Style, but was never able to hold on to that brightness. Even removed it from the pan and vaguely remember once going to freezer for a few minutes to slow the cooking down. I have not, however, under-cooked in hopes that the tomatoes still had that brightness deep within, somehow.

How much sauce was on that 14"-er?

No rule about putting on oregano in two different stages. There are distinctive outcomes from each. Why not?   

The pepper flakes were a bit of a concern going in, but I didn't notice them at all.  1/16 tsp for a 28oz can isn't much. (Then again my tastes were thrown off as the whole thing kindof tasted like an onion bagel.)

I have no idea about the science of frying herbs, but 3 minutes did seem like a long time.

Sauce amount was probably 3/4 cup or so. I overstretched the skin, so it was closer to 15".

On the brightness thing, a number of people here have mentioned adding uncooked crushed tomato at the end, pre bake. I had some 7/11 on standby but decided not to use them.  I want to do a better job of pulsing the tomato to leave some chunks, that may be all I need.

I'm thinking I'll taste the sauce just before topping the pie and add oregano, basil or sugar as needed.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: thezaman on March 05, 2018, 09:58:32 AM
i agree a very nice looking slice.looks like it came from a slice joint!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 05, 2018, 08:58:49 PM
I have had the heat from the crushed red peppers take over a sauce any time I have added it to the oil when cooking the garlic. Did you experience any of that?

Dosn't oregano sort of peak at about 30 seconds in the oil?

I've had the same experience. I know Kenji said he prefers the flavor of adding the pepper flakes to the oil, but it makes my sauce too spicy.  I granulated my red pepper flakes though, so perhaps I'm adding more than I think I am. Agree about not giving oregano too long to bloom. I think garlic, red pepper flake, and oregano all cook relatively quick in oil.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Chi_Guy on March 05, 2018, 10:23:04 PM
I've played around with a lot of fancy sauce recipes but last week I tried and loved this unassuming recipe for a Jet's Pizza sauce clone (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8247.240):

14 oz of Cento diced tomatoes
1/8 tsp of granulated garlic
2 tsp of oregano
2 small pinches of kosher salt

I used diced Cento tomatoes in a box because for some reason they are much sweeter than the crushed variety.  I first pureed the tomatoes then added the spices and salt and marinated for a couple of hours before baking.  This was a very basic sauce but its consistency and tomatoey flavor were surprisingly close to a classic NY slice.  I found that putting the oregano in the sauce brought out a more complex herbaceous flavor than when it goes on the pizza.  I'd use a tad less oregano next time but this is otherwise on point.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 08, 2018, 05:04:44 PM
One important observation I've made with good sauce is not only flavor but enough wetness to make a shiny wet layer on top of the crust, some call it a thin gumline but it's not gummy at all, and when baked, the slice isn't dry.  IMHO, a good slice has juice, when folded and take first bite, as my friend Josh says, the sauce squirts into your mouth.  After a slice has cooled somewhat, you can actually lift the cheese layer which has intermingled with the sauce to expose the wet crust layer, which is essential to a slice, in concert with the soft chewy innards and the light crispy undercrust.   Also, a wet sauce gets to boil and produce the scalding temps of a great slice.  Sauce boiling with the cheese, also changes the cheese texture.  I'm not a fan of sauce that turns into almost paste when done baking.  Lastly, I can imagine the perfect sauce ratio but if I had to pick, I prefer over sauced than under sauce.  Just some random thoughts


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 08, 2018, 06:11:20 PM
Nothing like a hot gooey cheese/sauce blob.

https://youtu.be/f2GuFCyfOhc?t=5m37s
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: timgiuffi on March 08, 2018, 08:11:20 PM
When I was a kid I went through a phase where I would remove the cheese from the slice and eat it separately. I have lots of fond memories of eating the naked wet crust.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on March 09, 2018, 09:56:11 PM
I've played around with a lot of fancy sauce recipes but last week I tried and loved this unassuming recipe for a Jet's Pizza sauce clone (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8247.240):

14 oz of Cento diced tomatoes
1/8 tsp of granulated garlic
2 tsp of oregano
2 small pinches of kosher salt

I used diced Cento tomatoes in a box because for some reason they are much sweeter than the crushed variety.  I first pureed the tomatoes then added the spices and salt and marinated for a couple of hours before baking.  This was a very basic sauce but its consistency and tomatoey flavor were surprisingly close to a classic NY slice.  I found that putting the oregano in the sauce brought out a more complex herbaceous flavor than when it goes on the pizza.  I'd use a tad less oregano next time but this is otherwise on point.

Jets is incredible, imo.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on March 12, 2018, 05:11:36 PM
so I just went thru this whole thread and still have some questions. personally, I'm not a huge fan of cento san marzano tomatoes. I've been trying to find a different brand to use.my sauces usually consist of evoo or butter, onion powder, garlic powder, basil, oregano and salt, sometimes pepper. it seems a lot of people here like to use the 7/11 tomatoes. I've never used them before.are they full tomatoes or are they already crushed or pureed? I like to puree tomatoes myself with basil leaves and sometimes garlic. I'm trying to find what base is best, and I will be experimenting with different brands such as,
-vantia (Dom from DiFara uses this)
-Francesconi san marzano (only sold at a place on Arthur ave in the bronx)
-Escalon 61
-7/11 and/or saporito (are these full tomatoes or already pureed with ingredients?)

Hope some of you can chime in. Im still trying to figure out ratios too. what do you guys suggest for salt on a 28 oz can? a teaspoon per can or is that not enough? I know NYC places uses a lot of salt in their sauce. Hope to hear some feedback soon, a lot of you have had great insight so far! thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on March 12, 2018, 06:43:23 PM
Last First.,   taste taste taste.  See what you like and record your additions of ingredients.  I like ground tomatoes but I screen out pulp and seeds. I tried 6n1 Escolon and Tomato Magic.   I prefer Tomato Magic.  I also thin out my blend with water as it is too think for my liking.  As for whole tomatoes many add paste to thicken.  I don't care for paste at all.  BTW   Francesconi is nothing to write home about.  very familiar with this store.  And I would never use butter. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on March 13, 2018, 12:15:46 AM
-7/11 and/or saporito (are these full tomatoes or already pureed with ingredients?)

I started to write this up, but here's the company's link instead:

https://www.stanislaus.com/products/real-italian-products/from-scratch-products
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on March 13, 2018, 12:26:37 AM
7/11 and 6 in 1 are my favorite crushed tomatoes.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Chi_Guy on March 13, 2018, 12:31:02 AM
so I just went thru this whole thread and still have some questions. personally, I'm not a huge fan of cento san marzano tomatoes. I've been trying to find a different brand to use.my sauces usually consist of evoo or butter, onion powder, garlic powder, basil, oregano and salt, sometimes pepper. it seems a lot of people here like to use the 7/11 tomatoes. I've never used them before.are they full tomatoes or are they already crushed or pureed? I like to puree tomatoes myself with basil leaves and sometimes garlic. I'm trying to find what base is best, and I will be experimenting with different brands such as,
-vantia (Dom from DiFara uses this)
-Francesconi san marzano (only sold at a place on Arthur ave in the bronx)
-Escalon 61
-7/11 and/or saporito (are these full tomatoes or already pureed with ingredients?)

Hope some of you can chime in. Im still trying to figure out ratios too. what do you guys suggest for salt on a 28 oz can? a teaspoon per can or is that not enough? I know NYC places uses a lot of salt in their sauce. Hope to hear some feedback soon, a lot of you have had great insight so far! thanks!

Try the regular Cento non-San Marzano tomatoes.  Less processed (diced and whole tomatoes) taste better than the crushed variety.

There's no need for a lot of added salt in the sauce.  Canned tomatoes usually already have salt and the saltiness you taste in NYC pies is usually from the cheese.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 13, 2018, 07:07:16 AM
so I just went thru this whole thread and still have some questions. personally, I'm not a huge fan of cento san marzano tomatoes. I've been trying to find a different brand to use.my sauces usually consist of evoo or butter, onion powder, garlic powder, basil, oregano and salt, sometimes pepper. it seems a lot of people here like to use the 7/11 tomatoes. I've never used them before.are they full tomatoes or are they already crushed or pureed? I like to puree tomatoes myself with basil leaves and sometimes garlic. I'm trying to find what base is best, and I will be experimenting with different brands such as,
-vantia (Dom from DiFara uses this)
-Francesconi san marzano (only sold at a place on Arthur ave in the bronx)
-Escalon 61
-7/11 and/or saporito (are these full tomatoes or already pureed with ingredients?)

Hope some of you can chime in. Im still trying to figure out ratios too. what do you guys suggest for salt on a 28 oz can? a teaspoon per can or is that not enough? I know NYC places uses a lot of salt in their sauce. Hope to hear some feedback soon, a lot of you have had great insight so far! thanks!
The key for me and the pies I like the most is a very thin sauce and lots of it. By thin, I mean thin enough to boil/bubble enough to release their bright flavors. My ingredients are tailored for when that sauce/cheese bubble happens. That is not to suggest that this is the absolute proper way to do it. It is a personal preference. It gives me the "that NY flavor" factor I remember from the 1975-1985 era. It is 90% of the sauce battle for me. It does indeed matter how good my sauce recipe is, but  would rather have plain tomatoes and the right sauce bubbling thing than to have the right recipe and not get the sauce bubbling thing. That's how important it is to me.

7/11s and 6-n-1's are the brightest, most forgiving of the tomatoes. They are great when the right bubbling happens and still deliver some of that flavor, to varying degrees, when that does not happen.     

All I wrote here is what helps me in my kitchen, ovens, dough mix, cheese, etc, etc.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on March 15, 2018, 10:33:46 PM
Tired, dried out leftover slices.  No added salt to the sauce aside from anchovy paste.  Hard cheese took the salt over the top.  A minute too long in the oven didn't help.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on March 15, 2018, 10:46:21 PM
The key for me and the pies I like the most is a very thin sauce and lots of it. By thin, I mean thin enough to boil/bubble enough to release their bright flavors. My ingredients are tailored for when that sauce/cheese bubble happens. That is not to suggest that this is the absolute proper way to do it. It is a personal preference. It gives me the "that NY flavor" factor I remember from the 1975-1985 era. It is 90% of the sauce battle for me. It does indeed matter how good my sauce recipe is, but  would rather have plain tomatoes and the right sauce bubbling thing than to have the right recipe and not get the sauce bubbling thing. That's how important it is to me.

7/11s and 6-n-1's are the brightest, most forgiving of the tomatoes. They are great when the right bubbling happens and still deliver some of that flavor, to varying degrees, when that does not happen.     

All I wrote here is what helps me in my kitchen, ovens, dough mix, cheese, etc, etc.

Yes, I like your approach.  I've settled on Alta Cucina. I reduce the liquid with oil, red pepper, garlic, anchovies, black pepper and oregano and then mix in the milled tomatoes.  The bubble is where the magic happens and a thinner sauce is key for that.
Title: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2018, 12:25:48 AM
Boil vid my bake the other night, hopefully the gif loads... it does in the preview screen for the upload, but doesn't seem to show on the site.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rlslmshdy on March 16, 2018, 12:45:35 AM
Boil vid my bake the other night, hopefully the gif loads... it does in the preview screen for the upload, but doesn't seem to show on the site.
Dang that looks good!
6-n-1s are my favorite but i believe Pastene kitchen ready crushed maybe over taking them as my favorite. I just go by which brand i have to add the least salt n sugar, to reach the taste im wanting
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2018, 08:45:14 AM
I'm trying to get over one mini-hump. The tomatoes loose their zing as soon as I do anything along the lines of boat motoring or squishing out with a food mill. I'm not sure what else to try. If I can process without killing the zing, I can go with more of a minimalist approach of enhancement rather than rescue and shape.

Ryan, what was the cheese and sauce "specs" and types on that pie? It looks very nice, but do not let looks fool you into thinking it's same to eat or even dispose. As a friend, I am willing to dispose of it for you in a new juicy pizza disposal facility we have locally. I'll PM you my addy and shipping instructions so that neither of us gets any on us. You can trust me.

Yes, I like your approach.  I've settled on Alta Cucina. I reduce the liquid with oil, red pepper, garlic, anchovies, black pepper and oregano and then mix in the milled tomatoes.  The bubble is where the magic happens and a thinner sauce is key for that.
I've got a can of those that I need to try. I was thinking of splitting it in half and trying the Norma oven roast thing. I think I'll borrow your method for the other half. When you say reduce the liquid, you do mean the traditional stove top simmer it down some thing?   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on March 16, 2018, 08:52:24 AM
About 10-15% of the finished sauce volume for 30 minutes on a low simmer.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2018, 09:21:16 AM
About 10-15% of the finished sauce volume for 30 minutes on a low simmer.
Thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2018, 12:20:17 PM
Tried to embed this little gif again, not sure how to make it work. Oh well, here's a direct link.

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HcbzOer.gif (https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HcbzOer.gif)


I'm trying to get over one mini-hump. The tomatoes loose their zing as soon as I do anything along the lines of boat motoring or squishing out with a food mill. I'm not sure what else to try. If I can process without killing the zing, I can go with more of a minimalist approach of enhancement rather than rescue and shape.

Ryan, what was the cheese and sauce "specs" and types on that pie? It looks very nice, but do not let looks fool you into thinking it's same to eat or even dispose. As a friend, I am willing to dispose of it for you in a new juicy pizza disposal facility we have locally. I'll PM you my addy and shipping instructions so that neither of us gets any on us. You can trust me.
I've got a can of those that I need to try. I was thinking of splitting it in half and trying the Norma oven roast thing. I think I'll borrow your method for the other half. When you say reduce the liquid, you do mean the traditional stove top simmer it down some thing?   

 :-D your services are admired by white shirt wearing pizza fanatics worldwide!

That was a 14" .1TF pie, 8 oz cheese, blend was 16 oz Lucerne WMLM mozzarella, 8 oz organic mild white cheddar, and 1 oz Bel Gio American Grana.

Sauce was uncooked, puree base. oregano, basil, roasted garlic powder, black pepper, crushed red pepper, minced pickled pepperoncini, romano, parmesan, salt, sugar, and olive oil.

FWIW I consider this particular pie kind of a hybrid between NY and American. I just wanted to post that vid of the sauce/cheese boil I captured the other day in response to your comment about achieving a good boil.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 16, 2018, 03:06:06 PM
Tried to embed this little gif again, not sure how to make it work. Oh well, here's a direct link.

https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HcbzOer.gif (https://cdn.pbrd.co/images/HcbzOer.gif)


 :-D your services are admired by white shirt wearing pizza fanatics worldwide!

That was a 14" .1TF pie, 8 oz cheese, blend was 16 oz Lucerne WMLM mozzarella, 8 oz organic mild white cheddar, and 1 oz Bel Gio American Grana.

Sauce was uncooked, puree base. oregano, basil, roasted garlic powder, black pepper, crushed red pepper, minced pickled pepperoncini, romano, parmesan, salt, sugar, and olive oil.

FWIW I consider this particular pie kind of a hybrid between NY and American. I just wanted to post that vid of the sauce/cheese boil I captured the other day in response to your comment about achieving a good boil.
So it was taken from that blend of 16-8-1 as you described, or did I mis-read the math?

I've finally found a paste I like. Centos dble concentrate. On sort of a related topic to paste, I have done a few pies using the Saporito w/basil and water mix. It was all about getting the right consistency for me. I write it down and forget it each time so far, so next time will be another test run. I think I am at 1:1.5 (saporito to water), but could be wrong.

Any ideas on how I can reduce texture with 7/11's without kills the brightness?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on March 16, 2018, 03:44:39 PM
So it was taken from that blend of 16-8-1 as you described, or did I mis-read the math?

I've finally found a paste I like. Centos dble concentrate. On sort of a related topic to paste, I have done a few pies using the Saporito w/basil and water mix. It was all about getting the right consistency for me. I write it down and forget it each time so far, so next time will be another test run. I think I am at 1:1.5 (saporito to water), but could be wrong.

Any ideas on how I can reduce texture with 7/11's without kills the brightness?

This is the go-to marinara sauce I nake for pasta (a slightly modified version of Mark Bitman's "Marinara Worth Mastering").  The addition of water is surprisingly effective.  I don't know if it would translate into the world of pizza, but it may be an avenue to explore:

INGREDIENTS
1 28-ounce can tomatoes
ľ cup extra-virgin olive oil
7 garlic cloves, peeled and slivered
Pinch crushed red pepper flakes
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 large fresh basil sprig
1/4 teaspoon dried oregano, more to taste

PREPARATION
Pour tomatoes into a large bowl and crush with your hands. Pour 1 cup water into can and slosh it around to get tomato juices (or use 1/2 cup water for thicker sauce). Reserve.

In a large skillet (do not use a deep pot) over medium heat, heat the oil. When it is hot, add garlic and red pepper flakes.

As soon as garlic is sizzling (do not let it brown), add the tomatoes, then the reserved tomato water. Add oregano and salt. Stir.

Place basil sprig, including stem, on the surface (like a flower). Let it wilt, then submerge in sauce. Simmer sauce until thickened and oil on surface is a deep orange, about 15 minutes. (If using oregano, taste sauce after 10 minutes of simmering, adding more salt and oregano as needed.) Discard basil (if using).
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 16, 2018, 05:30:06 PM
...
Any ideas on how I can reduce texture with 7/11's without kills the brightness?

I've had good luck using 50% 7/11 as is (not blended), and 50% fully blended whole peeled, which thins it out.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2018, 06:17:46 PM
This is the go-to marinara sauce I nake for pasta (a slightly modified version of Mark Bitman's "Marinara Worth Mastering").  The addition of water is surprisingly effective.  I don't know if it would translate into the world of pizza, but it may be an avenue to explore:

INGREDIENTS
1 28-ounce can tomatoes
ľ cup extra-virgin olive oil
7 garlic cloves, peeled and slivered
Pinch crushed red pepper flakes
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 large fresh basil sprig
1/4 teaspoon dried oregano, more to taste

PREPARATION
Pour tomatoes into a large bowl and crush with your hands. Pour 1 cup water into can and slosh it around to get tomato juices (or use 1/2 cup water for thicker sauce). Reserve.

In a large skillet (do not use a deep pot) over medium heat, heat the oil. When it is hot, add garlic and red pepper flakes.

As soon as garlic is sizzling (do not let it brown), add the tomatoes, then the reserved tomato water. Add oregano and salt. Stir.

Place basil sprig, including stem, on the surface (like a flower). Let it wilt, then submerge in sauce. Simmer sauce until thickened and oil on surface is a deep orange, about 15 minutes. (If using oregano, taste sauce after 10 minutes of simmering, adding more salt and oregano as needed.) Discard basil (if using).

That's Lidia Bastianich's marinara recipe. It works well on rustic pan pizzas IMO.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 16, 2018, 06:20:59 PM
So it was taken from that blend of 16-8-1 as you described, or did I mis-read the math?

I've finally found a paste I like. Centos dble concentrate. On sort of a related topic to paste, I have done a few pies using the Saporito w/basil and water mix. It was all about getting the right consistency for me. I write it down and forget it each time so far, so next time will be another test run. I think I am at 1:1.5 (saporito to water), but could be wrong.

Any ideas on how I can reduce texture with 7/11's without kills the brightness?

Yes, 8 oz from that cheese blend. I've been preferring puree over paste lately, at least on the retail level. I haven't used any 7/11's in a while, are you using a manual food mill?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 17, 2018, 09:05:35 PM
The juicy melt really is all about the thin sauce. A couple bakes ago I had it, with a fully blended whole tomato simmered for 50 minutes. Last bake I left the tomato a little chunky and simmered for 30 minutes, but it was watery. I'm reminded of a thread titled "thin but not watery". I get it now. Still not sure how to get there without the long simmer.

Today I bought sauce from a pizzeria. Again it was thin but not watery. I could easily see oil in it. The herbs looked green and uncooked. Lots of stuff floating in it of all colors. It really seemed like it was just whole tomatoes, oil, herbs and a hard cheese.

I have a video of it where I shake the container. Will post if I figure out how.

Below is my pie, using the pizzeria sauce. It was overbaked a bit. The cheese oiled off a bit too much. But the sauce and melt were really tasty.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 17, 2018, 09:17:14 PM
The juicy melt really is all about the thin sauce. A couple bakes ago I had it, with a fully blended whole tomato simmered for 50 minutes. Last bake I left the tomato a little chunky and simmered for 30 minutes, but it was watery. I'm reminded of a thread titled "thin but not watery". I get it now. Still not sure how to get there without the long simmer.

Today I bought sauce from a pizzeria. Again it was thin but not watery. I could easily see oil in it. The herbs looked green and uncooked. Lots of stuff floating in it of all colors. It really seemed like it was just whole tomatoes, oil, herbs and a hard cheese.

I have a video of it where I shake the container. Will post if I figure out how.

Below is my pie, using the pizzeria sauce. It was overbaked a bit. The cheese oiled off a bit too much. But the sauce and melt were really tasty.

Beautiful slice.  Have you tried an immersion blender with your tomatoes?  Helps to get that thinness without being watery though adding a bit of water helps.  7/11 can take a bit.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 17, 2018, 09:24:50 PM
Beautiful slice.  Have you tried an immersion blender with your tomatoes?  Helps to get that thinness without being watery though adding a bit of water helps.


Thanks! No, would that leave it a bit pulpy? To make sure I understand your point, are you implying that fully blending the tomato releases too much water? From my last chunky bake I thought that the chunks added water when baked and/or eaten. Also, I'm convinced even the puree that the tomatoes sit in are too watery.

We've also talked about the possibility that the water doesn't bake away the same in a home oven versus deck.

I wanted to open a can and compare, but didn't get a chance. Maybe tomorrow with leftover sauce, but it'll have sat in the fridge overnight.

Edit: or maybe the difference is Cento vs Alta Cucina. The one time I tried A.C., though, I really didn't notice a difference.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 17, 2018, 09:28:02 PM

Blending the tomatoes would get the thin wetness without compromising the tomato. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 17, 2018, 09:32:49 PM

Edit: or maybe the difference is Cento vs Alta Cucina. The one time I tried A.C., though, I really didn't notice a difference.

Could be.  I've found commercial tomatoes ie Stanislaus or Escalon to have more tomato vs water compared to most retail tomatoes.  Try 7/11 or 6 in 1.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 17, 2018, 10:15:45 PM
Very nice slice! You could try tomato filets over whole peeled and run them through a food mill. Should have less juice but still be thin.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on March 19, 2018, 09:16:09 AM
hey guys just a couple questions for those who use 7/11, Alta cucina, and Escalon 6 in 1. I was wondering how you get the seeds out.i know san marzanos do not have many seeds, but plum and cherry tomatoes do. I like the pulse them in a processor slightly so there are still some little chunks and skin (7/11,61) but then there are so many seeds I cannot get rid of. any suggestions for this on what to do? thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 09:21:37 AM
I obliterate the 7/11 with an immersion blender.  If want chunks, can add chopped up tomato filets.


Stanislaus also makes a product called Tomato Magic with no seeds or skin. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 09:50:04 AM
NY Sauce consistency

https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk?t=2m36s

https://youtu.be/2aGkRUJzo-A?t=52s
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 10:06:34 AM
Thanks! No, would that leave it a bit pulpy? To make sure I understand your point, are you implying that fully blending the tomato releases too much water? From my last chunky bake I thought that the chunks added water when baked and/or eaten. Also, I'm convinced even the puree that the tomatoes sit in are too watery.


Re-read your comment, this is one of the reasons why I add a paste (Saporito Super heavy sauce)  to 7/11, the other being flavor.  Gives the overall sauce body and tomato concentration.  The paste is mixed with water though to get proper end consistency.  Sauce is smooth and wet.  Just my own preference.

I realize using the word "thin" may be confusing.  It's not thin, it's wet and smooth.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on March 19, 2018, 10:28:59 AM
I obliterate the 7/11 with an immersion blender.  If want chunks, can add chopped up tomato filets.


Stanislaus also makes a product called Tomato Magic with no seeds or skin.

do you think the blended seeds gives it a different flavor? sometimes I find seeds to give it a more bitter flavor when they are blended up. I've been pulsing them and scraping them thru a metal strainer to get all the juice and flavor, but keeps the seeds out. I guess ill try to just blend them like crazy and see how that goes. thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 19, 2018, 11:15:12 AM
This is the go-to marinara sauce I nake for pasta (a slightly modified version of Mark Bitman's "Marinara Worth Mastering").  The addition of water is surprisingly effective.  I don't know if it would translate into the world of pizza, but it may be an avenue to explore:

INGREDIENTS
1 28-ounce can tomatoes
ľ cup extra-virgin olive oil
7 garlic cloves, peeled and slivered
Pinch crushed red pepper flakes
1 teaspoon kosher salt
1 large fresh basil sprig
1/4 teaspoon dried oregano, more to taste

PREPARATION
Pour tomatoes into a large bowl and crush with your hands. Pour 1 cup water into can and slosh it around to get tomato juices (or use 1/2 cup water for thicker sauce). Reserve.

In a large skillet (do not use a deep pot) over medium heat, heat the oil. When it is hot, add garlic and red pepper flakes.

As soon as garlic is sizzling (do not let it brown), add the tomatoes, then the reserved tomato water. Add oregano and salt. Stir.

Place basil sprig, including stem, on the surface (like a flower). Let it wilt, then submerge in sauce. Simmer sauce until thickened and oil on surface is a deep orange, about 15 minutes. (If using oregano, taste sauce after 10 minutes of simmering, adding more salt and oregano as needed.) Discard basil (if using).
Very interesting. Thanks, Jonas. I bet that crushed red in the oil wakes up the heat factor. My Son would love it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 19, 2018, 11:53:20 AM
Matt, that was a nice looking slice. Not sure what your issue was with the cheese oiling, but it did not show up in the picture you posted.

Ryan, I have a food mill.

OK, so this is where I started - almost. I had started with whisking a very small amount of water into some 7/11's. Just enough to get it to the right viscosity. My problem with that was that it was tough for me to get that viscosity without there being standing water. I tried a few things. Each of the things I tried, I reserved a small amount of the tomatoes aside in an unprocessed state so that I could A/B them.

#1: Boat Motor. I guess this is the immersion blender. I've actually done this quite a bit to various degrees. The more I blended the tomatoes, the worst the bitterness got. All of that bright flavor was gone. Just bitterness. I could add water to it and get the consistency I wanted, though. In the end, it was really no better than using a Saporito & water blend.  If I did a light pulsing or otherwise kept it down to a very minimal processing, I was able to retain some of the brightness. That brightness was obvious in the bake.

#2: Food Mill - two hole sizes. Much to my surprise, this one still greatly reduced the bright factor. perhaps I was squeezing the juice out too much? I did like the consistency, though. These all baked up well.

#3: Pressing through mesh. This was messy as heck and had little difference from a food mill until I went with too big of a mesh. In the end, that brightness was gone.

#4: I remembered somebody, somewhere, wrote about taking cans of tomatoes and whisking them in their big mixer for 10 minutes. Too much of a mess for me with any sort of powered device, but it had been the best so far at not removing the brightness.

The last effort went like this, and it was better. I thawed out containers with approx 375g of 7/11's. Into a big sided bowl to reduce splatter, I just started whisking by hand. Probably a few minutes. I stopped and tasted to find some of the brightness remained. I kept at it until it had become smoother. Somewhat bumpy but not chunky. About what they would have been it I had pulsed them with the boat motor.

I started testing consistency every 30 seconds. I ended up adding a total of 4 tablespoons to get what I wanted. The flavor had not grown more bitter, but it had thinned out a bit. Still, I detected brightness. I ended up making my normal sauce from there.  Best tasting pizza in months. It was back to my normal flavor, complete with all the little bits and pieces and seeds that were reduced in size. (well, seeds not reduced, but the rest was.)

So that big round trip brought me back to square one when the rest of the pizza world can get away with food mills and immersion blenders. At least this way there was no standing water. That helps. That, and I can expand my use of Saporito Extra Heavy. 

Perhaps I should try that tomato magic? HH, does it taste like 7/11 out of the can minus the seeds and skins?

     
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 12:11:33 PM

Perhaps I should try that tomato magic? HH, does it taste like 7/11 out of the can minus the seeds and skins?
   

Tomato Magic tastes like Alta Cucina blended down smooth.   Tastes a bit sweeter.
But all Stanislaus products generally taste similar, and have citric acid for tartness compared to say, Escalon tomatoes.
You might wanna try Escalon 6 in 1's too.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 12:16:17 PM
do you think the blended seeds gives it a different flavor? sometimes I find seeds to give it a more bitter flavor when they are blended up. I've been pulsing them and scraping them thru a metal strainer to get all the juice and flavor, but keeps the seeds out. I guess ill try to just blend them like crazy and see how that goes. thanks!

I don't notice any seed or skin flavors in the final product or any obvious bitterness.  If I was to sit and compare side by side 7/11's and a seedless tomato product, I'm sure there's some subtle differences, but I like the flavor of 7/11 and so do many NY pizza shops.  As I posted in another thread, I do add Saporito Super Heavy + water to the mix for the rich concentrated tomato umami and sweetness.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on March 19, 2018, 12:19:39 PM
Very interesting. Thanks, Jonas. I bet that crushed red in the oil wakes up the heat factor. My Son would love it.

It's very easy to make and it's miles ahead of any jarred sauce. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 19, 2018, 12:40:01 PM

Matt, that was a nice looking slice. Not sure what your issue was with the cheese oiling, but it did not show up in the picture you posted.

Ryan, I have a food mill.

OK, so this is where I started - almost. I had started with whisking a very small amount of water into some 7/11's. Just enough to get it to the right viscosity. My problem with that was that it was tough for me to get that viscosity without there being standing water. I tried a few things. Each of the things I tried, I reserved a small amount of the tomatoes aside in an unprocessed state so that I could A/B them.

#1: Boat Motor. I guess this is the immersion blender. I've actually done this quite a bit to various degrees. The more I blended the tomatoes, the worst the bitterness got. All of that bright flavor was gone. Just bitterness. I could add water to it and get the consistency I wanted, though. In the end, it was really no better than using a Saporito & water blend.  If I did a light pulsing or otherwise kept it down to a very minimal processing, I was able to retain some of the brightness. That brightness was obvious in the bake.

#2: Food Mill - two hole sizes. Much to my surprise, this one still greatly reduced the bright factor. perhaps I was squeezing the juice out too much? I did like the consistency, though. These all baked up well.

#3: Pressing through mesh. This was messy as heck and had little difference from a food mill until I went with too big of a mesh. In the end, that brightness was gone.

#4: I remembered somebody, somewhere, wrote about taking cans of tomatoes and whisking them in their big mixer for 10 minutes. Too much of a mess for me with any sort of powered device, but it had been the best so far at not removing the brightness.

The last effort went like this, and it was better. I thawed out containers with approx 375g of 7/11's. Into a big sided bowl to reduce splatter, I just started whisking by hand. Probably a few minutes. I stopped and tasted to find some of the brightness remained. I kept at it until it had become smoother. Somewhat bumpy but not chunky. About what they would have been it I had pulsed them with the boat motor.

I started testing consistency every 30 seconds. I ended up adding a total of 4 tablespoons to get what I wanted. The flavor had not grown more bitter, but it had thinned out a bit. Still, I detected brightness. I ended up making my normal sauce from there.  Best tasting pizza in months. It was back to my normal flavor, complete with all the little bits and pieces and seeds that were reduced in size. (well, seeds not reduced, but the rest was.)

So that big round trip brought me back to square one when the rest of the pizza world can get away with food mills and immersion blenders. At least this way there was no standing water. That helps. That, and I can expand my use of Saporito Extra Heavy. 

Perhaps I should try that tomato magic? HH, does it taste like 7/11 out of the can minus the seeds and skins?

     

A lot of the Neapolitan guys still hand squish their tomatoes. That minimal processing possibly helps reduce oxidation.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 19, 2018, 04:44:24 PM
Tomato Magic tastes like Alta Cucina blended down smooth.   Tastes a bit sweeter.
But all Stanislaus products generally taste similar, and have citric acid for tartness compared to say, Escalon tomatoes.
You might wanna try Escalon 6 in 1's too.
I have an Alta Cucina project coming soon, so I'll go from there.

I like the 6-in-1's for a change of pace. Usually keep some in the freezer. We prefer the 7/11 brightness most of the time.

It's very easy to make and it's miles ahead of any jarred sauce. 
Indeed! Things are better than they used to be on the jarred front. Almost becoming like Olive Oil with so many to choose from.

A lot of the Neapolitan guys still hand squish their tomatoes. That minimal processing possibly helps reduce oxidation.
It's funny you mentioned oxidation. I was working it with the whisk enough so that the little bubbles and the lighter shade started to appear. Doh!!!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on March 19, 2018, 05:13:09 PM
I obliterate the 7/11 with an immersion blender.  If want chunks, can add chopped up tomato filets.


Stanislaus also makes a product called Tomato Magic with no seeds or skin.
I use tomato magic and it does have seeds and skins which I strain out of my sauce. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 19, 2018, 06:15:58 PM
I use tomato magic and it does have seeds and skins which I strain out of my sauce.

If there is skin there is significantly less than 7/11.  Stanislaus claims they are made with peeled tomatoes.  You may be correct about seeds.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on March 19, 2018, 08:50:39 PM
The best part of spring coming is it is getting about time to plant my tomato plants.  I like 7/11 as a fall-back when my home-made sauce from the summer has been depleted but no canned product can compare to home grown and grown it is so simple.  If you have some room to plant, plant yourself 4-5 tomato plants of various varieties.  Of course traditional Roma comes to everyone's mind but I've found a mix of various types make the best pizza sauce (especially adding Lemon Boy strain tomatoes that when ripe are yellow but are so low in acid).  When blended with traditional red tomatoes the sauce is still red but so much lower in acid which means less sugar to counteract that acid.  When my plants start to yield I just pick and pick, quarter them and dump them all in a big pot week after week.  I crank up the heat and stir them.  As they start to sweat I grab my immersion mixer (I used to mill my tomatoes which was great but I needed a pile of them to justify that work) and blend them to the consistency I want.  I let it boil as it is the consistency of tomato soup and I skim off the acidic foam that forms over the first 5 minutes or so.  Then I cheat and start stirring in tomato paste to thicken it up to a consistency that is a little thicker than I want as I don't want to boil the heck out of it and lose all that fresh flavor.  I add a little salt, sugar (if needed), oregano, EVOO, a little crushed red pepper and some dried garlic flakes (never garlic powder, fresh garlic or granulated garlic as it just seems to make the a sauce "garlicy bitter"). I simmer it perhaps 15-20 minutes and then into containers it goes to be frozen for future use.  I do keep it a bit on the thicker side as the freezing process ruptures all intact tomato cells so what goes into the freezer as a little thicker than I want comes out later the consistency I want when defrosted. 

Long story short,  the best fresh-packed commercial products available can't hold a candle to home-made sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 19, 2018, 09:26:04 PM
NY Sauce consistency

https://youtu.be/4J5Pvz4XkYk?t=2m36s

https://youtu.be/2aGkRUJzo-A?t=52s

The sauce is Norma's video is definitely heavier than the 2 different pizzeria sauces I've purchased. ( Not knocking It, just saying there are some shops here that go thinner.)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on March 19, 2018, 11:48:05 PM
If there is skin there is significantly less than 7/11.  Stanislaus claims they are made with peeled tomatoes.  You may be correct about seeds.
I have not  used 7/11  But have used 6 n1  and I found the same amount of pulp.  I like my sauce drippy.  Harry thanks for all the great NY pizza expertise. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 20, 2018, 09:01:40 AM
The sauce is Norma's video is definitely heavier than the 2 different pizzeria sauces I've purchased. ( Not knocking It, just saying there are some shops here that go thinner.)

I believe that was Frank Gaquinto's sauce, which he says was 1 Can of Flotta pizza sauce which comes in heavy paste form and 1 can of water.  I agree it is on the heavier side.  This is a good discussion because not much has been spoken about here about the thickness/viscosity and amount of sauce, which has an affect on cheese.  I like your last photo with your 3 year old's slice as messy as it looks.  It goes to show how much the cheese changes when boiling with sauce, how it sheets and co mingles and creates a wet top crust layer.

From my observation pies tend to be undersauced these days, and/or not processed enough.  Alot of slice joints in my neighborhood could use a bit more, some places I can't really taste much tomato and creates a sense of dryness.  The ratios are better in Queens, IMHO.  That little adjustment can really improve a slice.  Ratios are so important.  I also had a discussion with Ryan about hacking for a home oven, and how cooking a bit beforehand and applied at a higher temp would give the boil a headstart.  One issue with NY pies in home ovens is sauce can taste a bit raw.  With regards to sauce consistency used at a pizza shop, a deck will cook into a sauce way more efficiently, a boil will begin just a minute or two into the bake and continue after removing from oven so the sauce consistency may be to compensate for that.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 20, 2018, 11:46:14 AM
One issue with NY pies in home ovens is sauce can taste a bit raw. 

Especially when using a screen in a home oven! I believe convection helps a lot with pulling air through a screen, I don't have it in my oven and find I need to cook the sauce more to compensate.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 20, 2018, 12:21:28 PM
I wonder if baking sauce Jersey style (on top) allows for more forgiveness?

Actually, we've talked quite a bit about viscosity.

I do like the flavor of the end result when the cheese and sauce becomes one. It doesn't look great on aesthetics front sometimes, but it's darned fine eating.

My nectar goal is simple. I want much of it to re-constitute itself back into the cheese as it cools. The last thing I want is 1/8th inch of cooled solidified nectar on top. Sort of changes the texture of the whole thing. Reminds me of cooled bacon grease. For the record, I do enjoy a good pizza nectar supply.  :drool: 

Two picks. One is an early attempt within a month of joining the forum. The sauce and cheese became one on lots of early attempts. Not the best example, but it seems to be the only photo to survive that had it come out like this. Some were worse. If this happened, though, closing our eyes allowed us to eat with much nom nom. The second pick is early last year, and is an example of the nectar pooling and solidifying. This one was uneven stretch as the cause as much as anything. Too much for the cheese to soak back in, or, cooked the cheese too much and it just wouldn't happen. a similar look can easily be achieved by me if I used the grocery store pack of hormel.

 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on March 20, 2018, 02:28:14 PM
Roy,

  Thanks, I can definitely see the difference. The last thing I want to do is start (another) religious war, but the second pie looks closer to the ny slice standard.

  vsteve pointed out my stretch was uneven on my last pie and looks similar to what you've posted. Symptoms are the cheese pooling in the center and the cheese doesn't make it out to the rim, yes? How did you solve the problem?

best,

p.s. pretty amazing that you made that first pie within a month of joining the forum!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 20, 2018, 05:48:47 PM
Roy,

  Thanks, I can definitely see the difference. The last thing I want to do is start (another) religious war, but the second pie looks closer to the ny slice standard.

  vsteve pointed out my stretch was uneven on my last pie and looks similar to what you've posted. Symptoms are the cheese pooling in the center and the cheese doesn't make it out to the rim, yes? How did you solve the problem?

best,

p.s. pretty amazing that you made that first pie within a month of joining the forum!
That first pie was done well over 700F.

The pooling problem was simply making a stronger dough, taking care during the ball shaping to be as even as possible and adjusting my usage window(CF-days) to nothing above 5. All done to hedge my bets that I will be able to stretch in timely enough fashion to be able to work the dough without hurting it. I still get un-even a little bit here and there, but well within the range of acceptable. Something like what HH posted a pic of above.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 20, 2018, 05:55:45 PM

  vsteve pointed out my stretch was uneven on my last pie and looks similar to what you've posted. Symptoms are the cheese pooling in the center and the cheese doesn't make it out to the rim, yes? How did you solve the problem?


When opening a dough, might want to try not touching the middle as much and keep a heavier hand towards the rim, so when you stretch it evens out.  But don't overdo it or you'll end up with a small hill.  Less sauce in the middle.  Everything pushes inwards in a bake. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on March 20, 2018, 05:57:25 PM
Also don't be afraid to cheese more to the rim, it'll push inwards too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on March 22, 2018, 11:30:17 AM
not sure how to reconcile this outcome, I made my first detroit style pizza last night and decided to use that sauce for a ny pie. I usually push scalfani crushed through a strainer, add oregano and a dash of salt and it's good to go. Last night for the detroit style sauce I didn't strain the tomatoes, added more seasoning and simmered for 15 minutes. the end result was a much thicker sauce, surprisingly I ended up with a better melt and integration of cheese and sauce.  I did focus on a more even stretch, maybe that was the overriding factor...

thank's to harry for pointing out the nuance of cheese/sauce integration vs. cheese sitting on top of sauce. I did like this much better.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 22, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
not sure how to reconcile this outcome, I made my first detroit style pizza last night and decided to use that sauce for a ny pie. I usually push scalfani crushed through a strainer, add oregano and a dash of salt and it's good to go. Last night for the detroit style sauce I didn't strain the tomatoes, added more seasoning and simmered for 15 minutes. the end result was a much thicker sauce, surprisingly I ended up with a better melt and integration of cheese and sauce.  I did focus on a more even stretch, maybe that was the overriding factor...

thank's to harry for pointing out the nuance of cheese/sauce integration vs. cheese sitting on top of sauce. I did like this much better.

A thicker sauce seems to help in a home oven since it doesn't have the 120,000 BTUs of a BP Y600.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 22, 2018, 06:54:12 PM
not sure how to reconcile this outcome...


I agree, that's not intuitive to me either.

Perhaps a deck oven is better at removing excess water from sauce as Ryan suggests, but that would explain your success with simmering and not the fact that the chunks were left in.
To me this effect is about achieving "thin but not watery", not chunky.

FWIW, based on your pictures I've always really liked your melts. I'm surprised you liked this one more than your previous bakes, but obviously only you can experience the taste and texture, plus we all have different personal preferences.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 22, 2018, 11:21:51 PM
My sauce findings are consistent from oven to oven to oven. Thin-set sauce = improved boiling = brighter tomato flavor.

Other factors are in play, obviously. Cheese amount. Dough density. Chunks or no chunks. (requires more sauce by weight to cover) The list goes on.

QD, I am curious about what you like about that pizza. I know what you said, cheese and sauce integration, but I'm with Matt on this one. I thought some of your previous efforts had pizza juice galore. Was that sweet, bright NY tomato flavor there, or was the pizza just more structurally sound? 
 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: the1mu on March 24, 2018, 02:09:39 AM
Another factor regarding heat for the home oven is the thickness of the stone. I believe the thinner the stone the less efficient it will be at delivering a consistent heat that can lead to the ďboilĒ of the sauce. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on March 24, 2018, 10:36:02 AM
My sauce findings are consistent from oven to oven to oven. Thin-set sauce = improved boiling = brighter tomato flavor.

Other factors are in play, obviously. Cheese amount. Dough density. Chunks or no chunks. (requires more sauce by weight to cover) The list goes on.

QD, I am curious about what you like about that pizza. I know what you said, cheese and sauce integration, but I'm with Matt on this one. I thought some of your previous efforts had pizza juice galore. Was that sweet, bright NY tomato flavor there, or was the pizza just more structurally sound?

roy,

  it's tough to describe what I liked more about the melt. Maybe the thicker sauce felt a little more comforting, I think the cheese stretched a little better as I was eating it. In the end, I'm probably unconsciously comparing it to the long forgotten pizza of my long island childhood. IMO, the suburbs of NYC tend to use more sauce and cheese.

after thinking about it, I do have a theory: as I was stretching I noticed some thin spots towards the center of the skin. Maybe a thinner crust resulted in a better boil...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 24, 2018, 11:13:42 AM
Maybe a thinner crust resulted in a better boil...

 ;) most definitely!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 24, 2018, 12:55:51 PM
roy,

  it's tough to describe what I liked more about the melt. Maybe the thicker sauce felt a little more comforting, I think the cheese stretched a little better as I was eating it. In the end, I'm probably unconsciously comparing it to the long forgotten pizza of my long island childhood. IMO, the suburbs of NYC tend to use more sauce and cheese.

after thinking about it, I do have a theory: as I was stretching I noticed some thin spots towards the center of the skin. Maybe a thinner crust resulted in a better boil...
Did you notice a flavor change, or was the determination far too cloaked due to the different sauce recipe?

I recall one I did a couple years back where I had a horrible stretch resulting in the middle 5 inches(2-1/2" out form center point) was probably a .060TF type of thinness compared to the outer portion likely above .080TF. Two pies back to back in home oven with same sauce. This was the 2nd one. It was a far superior tasting pie. The sauce was extremely bright. Even the oregano took on a brighter flavor.

Another related note is I have had some longer aged CF'ers that resulted in poor skin integrity during stretch. Not just thin spots. thin and structurally unsound. The skins at that point did not have enough "meat" left in them to hold in any heat, effectively become a heat pass-through object. Some of the crusts were just plain soggy and saturated 5 minutes after bake. Awful crusts for sure, but what was above it was always exceptionally bright.

Which ties in to this:
Another factor regarding heat for the home oven is the thickness of the stone. I believe the thinner the stone the less efficient it will be at delivering a consistent heat that can lead to the ďboilĒ of the sauce. 
I agree for the most part. There are other factors having to be considered. One could be the early stages of the crust bake that would/should result in a better spring. That in itself could slow down and reduce the heat amounts being passed upwards. Established air pockets in the crumb could provide insulation if bigger in size?

I've always got the impression from my bakes that a thicker stone did more for the crust. Perhaps it sustained that initial burst of heat for a longer period of time? If that was indeed the case, would that indicate that the crust used more of the available heat, at least early in the process? Would it then mean, by virtue of heat being used internally, that the available heat being passed upwards then decrease or otherwise become less violent in nature? 

I know I've done second bakes without re-saturating the stone enough(in hind-sight). Those bakes often resulted in underdeveloped crusts. Worst case scenario, those crusts gave me the impression of being more boiled than baked. Those bakes almost never had a detriment to sauce flavor. To the contrary, I remember on many occasions thinking that the sauce/cheese on the pies with the underdeveloped crusts tasted better due to being fed heat at a higher rate from below. That(oven and dough ball management) is a whole other can of worms, though.  :-[     
 
Roy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 25, 2018, 10:56:42 PM
You want to start off with a flavorful tomato. A 'zesty' tomato will make a 'zesty' sauce.

Salt is a pretty major player in the commercial pizzeria sauce arsenal, but that's restaurant food in general.  I use about half the salt of my favorite pizzeria, but it's still a substantial amount.

Although not talked about much, MSG is another player in the commercial world.  Tomatoes contain naturally occurring glutamates, but I have no doubt that many pizzerias augment those glutamates with a little MSG.

Old post from Scott.  ;)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on March 25, 2018, 11:59:41 PM
Got some. Fraid to try it. How would YOU try it
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on March 26, 2018, 12:28:05 AM
Got some. Fraid to try it. How would YOU try it

I'd just try un pequito in the sauce  :).

FWIW I've never tried anchovy in my sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on March 26, 2018, 12:51:09 AM
I was considering a touch of Worcestershire in the next batch (like, a teaspoon in 7 quarts) just to see if anyone notices...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on April 02, 2018, 08:06:38 PM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on April 02, 2018, 08:21:41 PM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).

Who me?  ;D

Yes, I found my bakes improved when I went lower and slower. Definite improvement in cheese melt and crust bake.

I dont think my 7:30-10:00 minute bakes result in undercooked sauce compared to 4 minutes on a Blackstone. A good test I recently conducted was to bake with sauce I bought at a pizzeria. It worked really well in my oven.
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=48058.msg520920#msg520920

Worst case, if low/slow is resulting in undercooked sauce we can lightly pre-cook it, which some pizzerias do anyway. Or just adjust the amount of water/paste used.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 02, 2018, 08:43:36 PM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).

Most of the folks doing a high temp, short back tend to use no seasoning in their sauce so I don't think they'd notice.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rparker on April 02, 2018, 10:20:22 PM
Most of the folks doing a high temp, short back tend to use no seasoning in their sauce so I don't think they'd notice.
or they didn't need it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on April 02, 2018, 11:16:03 PM
or they didn't need it.

+1.

Sauce should all be about the tomato.

Mask that flavor with too many spices, herbs and what not and you'll also, inadvertently, distort the flavor of the cheese.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on April 03, 2018, 01:32:54 AM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).

8 minutes @ 500F.  Anchovy, black pepper and hard cheese.  Basil.  The herbs and spices get cooked with a portion of the sauce.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 03, 2018, 02:15:47 AM
+1.

Sauce should all be about the tomato.

Mask that flavor with too many spices, herbs and what not and you'll also, inadvertently, distort the flavor of the cheese.

I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but your pies look like some of the most herb heavy on the forum?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on April 03, 2018, 11:07:28 PM
+1.

Sauce should all be about the tomato.

Mask that flavor with too many spices, herbs and what not and you'll also, inadvertently, distort the flavor of the cheese.

Mozzarella is so mild, that the sauce is what flavors it. Lots of people like sauce that is spiced. It doesn't take away from the tomato if done right. It enhances it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 04, 2018, 07:17:17 AM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).
I've added time to my bakes, I usually go for 7 min 30 secs, but lately I've been bumping it up to 8 min 30 secs with improved results all over.

Mozzarella is so mild, that the sauce is what flavors it. Lots of people like sauce that is spiced. It doesn't take away from the tomato if done right. It enhances it.
I agree, I've tried just crushed tomatos and crushed tomato with only salt and sugar, they pale in comparison to spiced sauce. I don't season my sauce to death either, Oregon and Basil are the on herbs.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 04, 2018, 07:22:54 AM
I believe that was Frank Gaquinto's sauce, which he says was 1 Can of Flotta pizza sauce which comes in heavy paste form and 1 can of water.  I agree it is on the heavier side.  This is a good discussion because not much has been spoken about here about the thickness/viscosity and amount of sauce, which has an affect on cheese.  I like your last photo with your 3 year old's slice as messy as it looks.  It goes to show how much the cheese changes when boiling with sauce, how it sheets and co mingles and creates a wet top crust layer.

From my observation pies tend to be undersauced these days, and/or not processed enough.  Alot of slice joints in my neighborhood could use a bit more, some places I can't really taste much tomato and creates a sense of dryness.  The ratios are better in Queens, IMHO.  That little adjustment can really improve a slice.  Ratios are so important.  I also had a discussion with Ryan about hacking for a home oven, and how cooking a bit beforehand and applied at a higher temp would give the boil a headstart.  One issue with NY pies in home ovens is sauce can taste a bit raw.  With regards to sauce consistency used at a pizza shop, a deck will cook into a sauce way more efficiently, a boil will begin just a minute or two into the bake and continue after removing from oven so the sauce consistency may be to compensate for that.
Will definitely simmer the sauce next time, and apply the sauce hot. I'll do this cheese first, then sauce on top.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on April 04, 2018, 08:49:05 AM
there's been a trend towards moving to lower temps, longer bakes vs. earlier forum bakers who believed a high temp, short bake was best. I wonder if the current trend leaves us with slightly undercooked sauce (and cheese).

Dang, I didnít notice Harry had posted the exact same thing as I stated above. Or maybe I did and didnít remember. At my age, all information is new again! Apologies Harry!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 04, 2018, 09:58:59 AM
It really comes down to the style.  A NY Margherita with mozzerella di bufala or fior di latte and basil is typically made with pureed Italian style plum tomatoes and just a bit of salt for au naturale and there are slice joints that do this for their regular slices too.

And other old school joints make slices with interesting things swimming in the sauce.  Here's a photo courtesy of Norma of the sauce at Joe and Pat's in Staten Island.  The orange oil residue on the side of the plastic cup also tells me it is at least partially cooked (1/2 and 1/2).  I prefer slices with this type of sauce and flavor, but that's just my preference.  The key is balance and ratios for the particular style.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HarryHaller73 on April 04, 2018, 09:59:15 AM
Dang, I didnít notice Harry had posted the exact same thing as I stated above. Or maybe I did and didnít remember. At my age, all information is new again! Apologies Harry!

No problem, what did I say??
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 04, 2018, 02:17:12 PM
8 minutes @ 500F.  Anchovy, black pepper and hard cheese.  Basil.  The herbs and spices get cooked with a portion of the sauce.

Is that one of yours, looks awesome. I haven't tried anchovy yet in my sauce but I've been wanting to. IIRC Norma used it in her Caputo Cup winning sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on April 04, 2018, 09:28:32 PM
Is that one of yours, looks awesome. I haven't tried anchovy yet in my sauce but I've been wanting to. IIRC Norma used it in her Caputo Cup winning sauce.


Thanks, yeah that one was Grande.  I also add oregano, oil, crushed red pepper and garlic, but I think the squeeze of anchovy paste and especially a good amount of black pepper and hard cheese cooked in a portion of the tomatoes really got my sauce where I want it.  Every batch is different and made to taste.  I struggle most with getting the salt (and sometimes sugar to balance the sweetness of the basil) right.  I've settled on a pound of cheese on a 20" pie and emboldened my sauce, accordingly.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on April 07, 2018, 12:03:43 AM
I don't mean this in a negative way at all, but your pies look like some of the most herb heavy on the forum?

Applied post-bake, though. Big difference.

And only oregano.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on April 07, 2018, 12:04:21 AM
Mozzarella is so mild, that the sauce is what flavors it. Lots of people like sauce that is spiced. It doesn't take away from the tomato if done right. It enhances it.

Depends on the Mozz, don't you think?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on April 08, 2018, 05:39:03 PM
Depends on the Mozz, don't you think?

I'm not talking aged or blended. I use Grande full fat, which is known to be a bit salty and even that on a pie lacks depth of flavor. Ive made pizzas with just crushed tomato and salt, and ones with herbs, olive oil, and hard cheese/anchovy, and I prefer the latter, as do my customers. For a Margherita, I like a bare bones sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Piezone on April 11, 2018, 10:32:31 AM
My sauce prep used to be just good quality canned tomatoes + salt + sugar (if necessary) but recently I've been  experimenting with cooked sauces so I'm glad I found this thread.

So far I've learned a few things:
1) I'm fairly intolerant of either olive oil or butter in the sauce. Both change the flavour in ways I do not like.  I've not tried lard or beef dripping yet so that's probably next on the list.

2) I prefer dried marjoram to dried basil. Marjoram in combination with oregano is the winning combo for me so far. I've tried infusing fresh rosemary into the sauce as it simmers for "high" notes but have learned to be careful not to leave it too long as it can ruin the sauce!

I suspect my ideal sauce is a combination of cooked and uncooked tomato but there's plenty of experimenting left to do before I find my preferred ratio.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on April 11, 2018, 11:11:17 AM
Piezone - glad you mentioned Marjoram - I had tried some in my sauce a while back and it did not do anything for me - tried a different brand and the difference in color and flavor was night and day - also growing some on my deck for pizza this summer. Point is -- not all Marjoram is the same (just like oregano).

I plan to do more testing with it (and other brands) - thanks for bringing up the topic....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on April 11, 2018, 11:17:52 AM
Some sage advice...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Piezone on April 11, 2018, 12:40:39 PM
Piezone - glad you mentioned Marjoram - I had tried some in my sauce a while back and it did not do anything for me - tried a different brand and the difference in color and flavor was night and day - also growing some on my deck for pizza this summer. Point is -- not all Marjoram is the same (just like oregano).

I plan to do more testing with it (and other brands) - thanks for bringing up the topic....

Interesting you mention the variability of marjoram. I managed to get hold of some wild marjoram last year. Tasted great when fresh, a bit like a minty, citrusy oregano. With pizza and pasta sauces in mind, I also let some dry out only to find it retained virtually no flavour. I guess I've lucked out so far on buying the jarred stuff.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 11, 2018, 02:09:49 PM
The recipe for a "hearty" NY pizza sauce on the back of a #10 can of super heavy pizza sauce with basil I just threw away the other day included 1 teaspoon of marjoram.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on April 24, 2018, 04:38:32 PM
Just back from our local pizza restaurant (this is the place that sells me their in-house grande blend), had an interesting discussion about sauce with the owner. They blend three different types of tomatoes, alta cucina, bonta and "italian tomatoes" (not sure what he meant). He changes up the blend depending on what he tastes in each can. Then he adds basil, oregano, pepper, hard cheese and olive oil. The sauce is uncooked.

Interesting that this little pizza shop in an unassuming strip mall in our small town puts so much thought and effort into their sauce and cheese. But then, they do so muich other stuff right: they hire local kids, support high school sports, every person in our town has eaten there, every kid has attended a birthday party there and the owner knows the name of every student by  the time they graduate.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 24, 2018, 05:16:47 PM
Just back from our local pizza restaurant (this is the place that sells me their in-house grande blend), had an interesting discussion about sauce with the owner. They blend three different types of tomatoes, alta cucina, bonta and "italian tomatoes" (not sure what he meant). He changes up the blend depending on what he tastes in each can. Then he adds basil, oregano, pepper, hard cheese and olive oil. The sauce is uncooked.

Interesting that this little pizza shop in an unassuming strip mall in our small town puts so much thought and effort into their sauce and cheese. But then, they do so muich other stuff right: they hire local kids, support high school sports, every person in our town has eaten there, every kid has attended a birthday party there and the owner knows the name of every student by  the time they graduate.

Nothing more important than a great sauce.
He probably means a San Marzano/style import. There's a lot of them, Harry used to mention the Vantia brand a lot.

Bonta is tomato paste/extra heavy BTW.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on April 24, 2018, 06:45:32 PM
Just back from our local pizza restaurant (this is the place that sells me their in-house grande blend), had an interesting discussion about sauce with the owner. They blend three different types of tomatoes, alta cucina, bonta and "italian tomatoes" (not sure what he meant). He changes up the blend depending on what he tastes in each can. Then he adds basil, oregano, pepper, hard cheese and olive oil. The sauce is uncooked.

Interesting that this little pizza shop in an unassuming strip mall in our small town puts so much thought and effort into their sauce and cheese. But then, they do so muich other stuff right: they hire local kids, support high school sports, every person in our town has eaten there, every kid has attended a birthday party there and the owner knows the name of every student by  the time they graduate.

Great stuff. I agree with Ryan, a lot goes into pizzeria sauces, even the ones that taste simple actually have alot going on, just with more balance.

Any chance he told you whether the hard cheese was romano or parm? Or whether the basil was fresh or dry?

I have a bunch of Bonta in my freezer. I really like it for a thick sauce on pan pizzas. I only tried a more diluted version on a NY pie once. Its something I should get back to at some point.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 25, 2018, 01:01:30 AM
A tomato base I like lately is 28 oz whole peeled blended + 14 oz extra heavy.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: StateofMind on April 25, 2018, 02:21:56 AM
Iím really into this new Bianco Dinapoli product. Itís grest straight out of the can or doctored up a bit. I think itís going to be available in retail sizes soon.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2018, 02:36:20 AM
Iím really into this new Bianco Dinapoli product. Itís grest straight out of the can or doctored up a bit. I think itís going to be available in retail sizes soon.

I was given a case of these tomatoes.  They are great I agree.   Walter
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on April 25, 2018, 06:58:47 AM
A tomato base I like lately is 28 oz whole peeled blended + 14 oz extra heavy.

How much water (if any) do you add to the 14oz of extra heavy?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on April 25, 2018, 07:43:15 AM
Iím really into this new Bianco Dinapoli product. Itís grest straight out of the can or doctored up a bit. I think itís going to be available in retail sizes soon.

It has been available at Whole Foods in 28 oz. cans for a while.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on April 25, 2018, 08:09:33 AM
It has been available at Whole Foods in 28 oz. cans for a while.
Yup, but I never liked them, maybe I had a bad batch. This was years ago when I tried ago when I tried them.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on April 25, 2018, 08:14:51 AM
Any chance he told you whether the hard cheese was romano or parm? Or whether the basil was fresh or dry?

parm for the hard cheese, I assumed the basil was dry but really have no idea. He did say that some of the tomatoes were packed with basil but felt the sauce needed more.

It has been available at Whole Foods in 28 oz. cans for a while.
I've seen these too, but the artwork was a different design.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: StateofMind on April 25, 2018, 11:07:59 AM
It has been available at Whole Foods in 28 oz. cans for a while.

If you look closely it is their ďsauceĒ product. Not the same as the pizza sauce they offer in glass. I currently use their rustic crush product which I love but this is a bit thicker and smoother.  It is not officially released  yet but Rob DiNapoli brought by a can for me to cook with and was kind enough to give me another can to compete with at the pizza expo. Iím hoping to fully switch to it next month.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: waltertore on April 25, 2018, 11:30:28 AM
If you look closely it is their ďsauceĒ product. Not the same as the pizza sauce they offer in glass. I currently use their rustic crush product which I love but this is a bit thicker and smoother.  It is not officially released  yet but Rob DiNapoli brought by a can for me to cook with and was kind enough to give me another can to compete with at the pizza expo. Iím hoping to fully switch to it next month.

My mistake.  I had a case of the rustic Bianco.  It reminded me of 7/11.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 25, 2018, 12:01:43 PM
How much water (if any) do you add to the 14oz of extra heavy?

None. I'm much preferring a thicker sauce for my home oven bakes, the WP + juices is enough to thin it IMO. A thicker sauce allows me to put more on the pie, so more flavor with less sog. If I was baking in a deck oven, perhaps I'd need to thin it more.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on April 25, 2018, 12:59:39 PM
If you look closely it is their ďsauceĒ product. Not the same as the pizza sauce they offer in glass. I currently use their rustic crush product which I love but this is a bit thicker and smoother.  It is not officially released  yet but Rob DiNapoli brought by a can for me to cook with and was kind enough to give me another can to compete with at the pizza expo. Iím hoping to fully switch to it next month.

Thanks, the "Sauce" kind of blends into the background. I have not seen that sauce. I have not seen anything in glass yet either.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on April 25, 2018, 01:01:15 PM
DiNapoli WP with basil is one of the best canned tomatoes I've used but my local store stopped carrying them.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on April 26, 2018, 05:36:35 PM
I've used stanislaus and dinapoli.

I like the DiNapoli a lot and use because they are organic, but I ever so slightly prefer the stanislaus alta cucina. The DiNapoli are very sweet, but the alta cucina are better balanced. They have some sweetness but a much needed acidity the dinapoli do not have.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Piezone on May 10, 2018, 08:37:27 AM
My latest cooked sauce:

I separated whole peeled plum tomatoes from their ďcanning juiceĒ and placed them in a small baking dish with some sliced onion, garlic clove, parmesan rind and a few dried chilis.I covered the dish tightly with foil and then cooked in the oven at 80-90C (around 180F) for 2 hours. After cooling, I removed the onion, garlic, chili and parmesan rind and blended the tomatoes with the retained canned juice. Then I added seasonings: salt, sugar, oregano and marjoram.

I probably should've let the sauce sit for a few hours but my dough was ready to bake so I used it almost straight away on a sicilian/square pie.  It tasted good: bright, but not raw, retaining a good level of ďtomato-nessĒ  and decent umami. Nice balance overall. Probably the best cooked sauce Iíve made so far. Not sure how it will fare on faster baked round pies but Iíll be trying it again for sure.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on June 14, 2018, 07:03:45 AM
Anyone know what machine NY pizzerias use to crush their tomatoes? A large mill?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: SKATE MENTAL LOVES PIZZA on July 03, 2018, 10:50:04 PM

I've been using 7-11's and only adding some garlic infused oil I make, a dash of salt and pepper and 4-5 fresh basil leaves. I hit it with the immersion blender for 5-10 seconds just to get the basil chopped and mixed. I live in Northern California so the tomatoes don't have to travel too far and 7-11's always seem to be the brightest more universal i've used. Again, just my preference not trying to win an award.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rlslmshdy on July 05, 2018, 09:55:38 PM
I judge can tomatoes by the total amount of the 2 main ingredients (salt, sugar) i have to add to the tomatoes to get the flavor im looking for.  So far Pastene kitchen ready and 6 n 1s are the top 2.  I add the least amount of those 2 ingredients with those 2 brands.  I add a tablespoon of powdered romano cheese, 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of the minced basil in the tubes, 1/2 teaspoon red pepper flakes, 3 tablespoon of veg. Oil to every 28oz. can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 06, 2018, 03:58:18 PM
I judge can tomatoes by the total amount of the 2 main ingredients (salt, sugar) i have to add to the tomatoes to get the flavor im looking for.  So far Pastene kitchen ready and 6 n 1s are the top 2.  I add the least amount of those 2 ingredients with those 2 brands.  I add a tablespoon of powdered romano cheese, 1/4-1/2 teaspoon of the minced basil in the tubes, 1/2 teaspoon red pepper flakes, 3 tablespoon of veg. Oil to every 28oz. can.
try Jersey fresh crushed
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rlslmshdy on July 06, 2018, 07:49:14 PM
try Jersey fresh crushed

I will definitely try those next. Im currently going thru a case of scalfini crushed.  Their not sweet enough for my taste.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on July 07, 2018, 12:45:18 PM
I will definitely try those next. Im currently going thru a case of scalfini crushed.  Their not sweet enough for my taste.
Agree, Sclafani is good, but not sweet enough and too...tart, brash, or "hard" tasting for my liking.

Meanwhile I went to my upscale bougie "The Fresh Market" to find some crushed tomatos, got two cans of Pastane kitchen ready ground tomatos.

I'll see how they turn out.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 07, 2018, 03:04:14 PM
Agree, Sclafani is good, but not sweet enough and too...tart, brash, or "hard" tasting for my liking.

Meanwhile I went to my upscale bougie "The Fresh Market" to find some crushed tomatos, got two cans of Pastane kitchen ready ground tomatos.

I'll see how they turn out.
I think that is funny.  Pastene Tomatoes have been around for at least 70 years.  They always could be purchased anywhere and discounted heavily along with the rest of the Brands.   Now The Fresh Market carries them and people think they are upscale.   Yet they are sold in Walmart and Target .
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 07, 2018, 09:32:02 PM
I strongly recommend to everyone, if you havent tried the following, do it asap. Many thanks again to Quietdesperation and Invertedisdead, this completely transformed my pizzas.

Use a rubber spatula to push a crushed tomato product through a mesh strainer. No additional tomato in the sauce. It's amazing.

Edit: "No additional tomato" meant that I'm just adding herbs and spices to my strained crushed tomato (7/11). I'm not mixing in any whole peeled tomato, puree, paste etc..
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on July 07, 2018, 10:11:10 PM
Thanks Matt, Iíll try that next time. What do you mean by no additional tomatoes in the sauce?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 08, 2018, 05:37:11 AM
Thanks Matt, Iíll try that next time. What do you mean by no additional tomatoes in the sauce?

Yeah, I wasn't totally sure if that was clear. I'll edit the post. I was thinking about the fact that we've discussed mixing various amounts of crushed, whole, heavy puree together in various blends to get the right balance of flavor and consistency. I'm thinking that strained crushed is perfect on its own (in my case 7/11). So I used just that, no whole peeled or puree or any other tomato product added into my strained puree. (I do of course add herbs and spices.)

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jbravo on July 08, 2018, 09:32:16 AM
 I've mastered a really good sauce (uncooked). I mix Italian canned tomatoes (crushed to small pieces, excess liquid removed) with an italian passata, add a bit of sugar, salt and oregano and a drop of extra virgin olive oil. Turns out amazing.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 08, 2018, 10:24:01 AM
Yeah, I wasn't totally sure if that was clear. I'll edit the post. I was thinking about the fact that we've discussed mixing various amounts of crushed, whole, heavy puree together in various blends to get the right balance of flavor and consistency. I'm thinking that strained crushed is perfect on its own (in my case 7/11). So I used just that, no whole peeled or puree or any other tomato product added into my strained puree. (I do of course add herbs and spices.)

I think Norm is/was milling 7/11 for his NY sauce. Hey buddy if you're reading this chime in  :D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 08, 2018, 03:41:37 PM
I strongly recommend to everyone, if you havent tried the following, do it asap. Many thanks again to Quietdesperation and Invertedisdead, this completely transformed my pizzas.

Use a rubber spatula to push a crushed tomato product through a mesh strainer. No additional tomato in the sauce. It's amazing.

Edit: "No additional tomato" meant that I'm just adding herbs and spices to my strained crushed tomato (7/11). I'm not mixing in any whole peeled tomato, puree, paste etc..
I do the same thing with whole peeled or crushed.  At one time I used the spatula and strainer then I found this my grandmother used in the basement. It makes it much easier when doing a number 10 can.   Besides skin, peeled or not seeds and pulp affects the taste of sauce.  When I use the Alta Cucina Peeled there is no need to add water. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 09, 2018, 08:33:53 AM
Yes, but I have not made a pie in months - I should crack open a new can and get busy on that 23 inch pizza I want to make - now I'm getting hungry  :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 09, 2018, 09:08:50 AM
I do the same thing with whole peeled or crushed.  At one time I used the spatula and strainer then I found this my grandmother used in the basement. It makes it much easier when doing a number 10 can.   Besides skin, peeled or not seeds and pulp affects the taste of sauce.  When I use the Alta Cucina Peeled there is no need to add water.

That's gonna make a mess of that lace tablecloth.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 09, 2018, 11:29:48 AM
That's gonna make a mess of that lace tablecloth.
;D  That was an ebay picture.  I bought a second one for 15 bucks for Florida .   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 24, 2018, 03:15:35 PM
So the other day I picked up a bunch of tomatoes from a local grower. I decide to make bruschetta and used all the typical spices, some nice olive oil. It tasted great and I was going to add a tiny amount of sugar but instead drizzled in a tsp of white balsamic vinegar (which is very sweet).

Wow flavor explosion - it really added a nice sweet zig and the acid worked great with the mix.

So now wondering if anyone has tried adding a small amount to a pizza sauce.

I have two dough balls on deck - I plan on opening a can of 7/11 tomatoes, straining them and adding in 30% super thick full red - fresh oregano and marjoram along with some dried - salt and a good dash of  white balsamic vinegar (and maybe some sugar). I have a good feeling about this - I don't recall anyone trying this but maybe I just forgot a post. Wish me luck....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 24, 2018, 04:14:51 PM
I've experimented with vinegar in sauce.  I didn't like it.  But hey, I think pepperoni is the worst thing you can do to a pizza.  Try it.  You don't have much to lose.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 24, 2018, 04:27:59 PM
I don't think every vinegar would work but the bottle of white I got from trader joes is really sweet and does not have much bite - I'll let everyone know how it works out....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 25, 2018, 04:10:07 PM
I just made up the sauce - vinegar did not work and I dumped it into the trash - I did the mix of 70% 7/11 to 30% Full Red and it tasted great - strained the 7/11 tomatoes first.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 25, 2018, 06:45:08 PM
I just made up the sauce - vinegar did not work and I dumped it into the trash - I did the mix of 70% 7/11 to 30% Full Red and it tasted great - strained the 7/11 tomatoes first.

Is Full Red like a paste and did you add water? I will be experimenting with adding a paste/heavy puree to my strained 7/11 at some point hopefully soon.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 26, 2018, 07:43:44 AM
Yes, full red is almost paste but the seeded / strained 7/11 help a bit - the mix was a bit thicker than my usual but I went with it to see how it worked - picture at link below. I think if I was going to cut it I would not use water - maybe tomato juice or the juice from some whole canned tomatoes..... Sure tasted great on the pie...

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg537677#msg537677
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 26, 2018, 09:50:20 AM
Hmmm.  I find 7/11 almost too thick straight out of the can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 26, 2018, 10:37:17 AM
Like I mentioned John, removing the seeds and skins thins it out a tiny amount - also the mix was extra thick but you can see the results here - worked A OK....

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg537676#msg537676

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 26, 2018, 06:08:49 PM
To me using a strainer for 7/11 actually thins it out alot, and I'm really liking it. I could see 30% paste working with it for sure. (And Norm's pie evidenced it.)

 I like the idea of using juice instead of water to thin it when looking for a wetter sauce.

(And yeah, 7/11 straight from the can is too thick for my NY pies.)

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on July 26, 2018, 11:31:27 PM
To me using a strainer for 7/11 actually thins it out alot, and I'm really liking it. I could see 30% paste working with it for sure. (And Norm's pie evidenced it.)

 I like the idea of using juice instead of water to thin it when looking for a wetter sauce.

(And yeah, 7/11 straight from the can is too thick for my NY pies.)
A few words in support of using tomato juice instead of water. We make huge batches of meatballs and sauce, which is chunkier than a typical pizza sauce, and use several 46 oz cans of tomato juice to bring it to the thickness we are after. I also make a ďwaterlessĒ vegetable beef soup where I make a stock with oxtails, vegetables, and a little wine. Next I deglaze with tomato juice, using as much as I need to reach the batch size, fish out the spent vegetables and continue making the soup with diced raw vegetables. Take the little bit of extra flavor and color tomato juice offers when you need to build or dilute something else made primarily with tomato product. I keep a six pack of the small cans in the pantry for small batches for the two of us.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on July 26, 2018, 11:45:28 PM
If you haven't already, try Sacramento tomato juice! I haven't had any better besides homemade! RD has it in cases of small cans or in quart cans, LOVE IT!!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 27, 2018, 06:52:57 AM
Jon, Tony, I've never used tomato juice before. How different is it compared to the 'liquid' found in a can of whole peeled tomatoes? (A couple times in the past I used the liquid and threw out the tomatoes which seemed silly.)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on July 27, 2018, 09:35:02 AM
Jon, Tony, I've never used tomato juice before. How different is it compared to the 'liquid' found in a can of whole peeled tomatoes? (A couple times in the past I used the liquid and threw out the tomatoes which seemed silly.)
I really donít know. If I had to guess Iíd say what is in a can of tomato juice is more consistently the same flavor, thickness, etc. When we used to can at home, things worked out pretty consistently over relatively small batches, in terms of what liquid came out of the tomtoes that were being canned. Funny: I do not care for tomato juice by itself, or cold anyway.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 28, 2018, 12:51:30 PM
How long do you guys like to let your NY sauce "marinate?"

I used to open a can right before baking because I felt the flavors were better to minimize the time melded, but it's not very realistic to how most pizzerias operate, and with some of my NY pies I feel the sauce gets better after melding overnight in the refrigerator, especially uncooked sauces.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 28, 2018, 01:09:21 PM
Agree overnight is better but for some reason I seem to always make it the same day?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 28, 2018, 02:18:49 PM
I do a few hours at room temp.

Curious to try overnight. Will it thicken?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 28, 2018, 02:21:18 PM
I have not noticed mine get any thicker overnight but I keep it covered - if it was uncovered it might - one thing I did learn is not to add garlic if it will sit overnight (at least not fresh garlic) - man does the garlic taste get overpowering...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 28, 2018, 03:15:53 PM
I usually make it in the morning.  Garlic tends to thicken it up any longer than that.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 28, 2018, 03:30:18 PM
Also I forgot to mention that if I'm putting hard cheese into the sauce, I do it right before the bake. I figure it keeps the cheese fresher, but I may be hurting the meld.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on July 28, 2018, 03:37:15 PM
Hmmm, not sure I don't think I ever made it the night before and used any cheese - in both pizza shops I worked in back in the 70s did not use any cheese in the sauce but it was always made a day ahead....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on August 05, 2018, 11:27:17 AM
I make my sauce right before the bake. Not sure, but I think the tomatoes taste a little brighter. I use oregano, a pinch of sea salt, hard cheese and olive oil.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on August 15, 2018, 11:55:32 AM
Thoughts on fresh oregano in NY sauce?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on August 15, 2018, 11:57:35 AM
Thoughts on fresh oregano in NY sauce?

Dry.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on August 15, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
Thoughts on fresh oregano in NY sauce?

My limited experience with fresh oregano ON a pizza is that you can use a LOT more than dried.  It's quite mild.  So using it IN a sauce would probably have the same effect as putting in fresh basil.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on August 15, 2018, 12:15:30 PM
Thoughts on fresh oregano in NY sauce?

I've never tried it, but think it's definitely worth a shot. I wonder if the oregano I use (sicilian dried on stalks) is similar to fresh.

When I dissected a sauce from one of my local pizzerias there were dried herbs as well as fresh oregano and fresh basil.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on August 15, 2018, 12:20:35 PM
Dry.

I probably need to source some better dried oregano - it seems to go from either tasting non existent to bitter and overpowering. I haven't tried any of the stuff sold on the stalk but it looks appealing.

My limited experience with fresh oregano ON a pizza is that you can use a LOT more than dried.  It's quite mild.  So using it IN a sauce would probably have the same effect as putting in fresh basil.

Interesting, thanks! I don't have a lot of experience using fresh oregano, but a local Mexican place uses fresh oregano in their house salsa and it's really good and unique. I was thinking of trying some in my pizza sauce cause it doesn't seem to have the bitter notes - I recall Tom Lehmann posting about fresh oregano and basil in some of his test panels. I'm also considering a mix of fresh and dried oregano but not sure if that's going too far.

I've never tried it, but think it's definitely worth a shot. I wonder if the oregano I use (sicilian dried on stalks) is similar to fresh.

When I dissected a sauce from one of my local pizzerias there were dried herbs as well as fresh oregano and fresh basil.



Good info! Gonna make a pie later with a strained 7/11 base, I think I'll give the fresh oregano a try. Maybe with a drop of basil infused EVOO and a grating of reggiano.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on August 15, 2018, 12:29:32 PM
Thoughts on fresh oregano in NY sauce?

Been doing that for the lat few pies - looks cool but it is pretty mild so not sure it really impacts the flavor much....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 02, 2018, 08:46:30 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIwlj7bzXA

One thing I noticed about Scarr's pizza from a few videos (yes I know this is their upside sicilian) is that their sauce is really basic. In the video he says it's nothing but milled tomato's, salt, garlic, black pepper and fresh basil.
For the regular pies in other videos you clearly see the basil in the sauce, and the herbs go on prior to the bake.
Thinking this probably isn't a cooked sauce, I think this is going to be the basis for my next sauce recipe, try and simplify it a little. Probably will still cook it prior to bake though.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 03, 2018, 12:55:17 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wMIwlj7bzXA

One thing I noticed about Scarr's pizza from a few videos (yes I know this is their upside sicilian) is that their sauce is really basic. In the video he says it's nothing but milled tomato's, salt, garlic, black pepper and fresh basil.
For the regular pies in other videos you clearly see the basil in the sauce, and the herbs go on prior to the bake.
Thinking this probably isn't a cooked sauce, I think this is going to be the basis for my next sauce recipe, try and simplify it a little. Probably will still cook it prior to bake though.

I would choose black pepper and basil as the key ingredients for a NY sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 03, 2018, 07:03:58 AM
I would choose black pepper and basil as the key ingredients for a NY sauce.

Interesting, I've definitely had basil-intense pies at pizzerias, but I've always considered oregano as the key herb.

I've been considering trying more black pepper, but am hesitant as I've put too much before and had it ruin the pie.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 03, 2018, 11:12:16 AM
I would choose black pepper and basil as the key ingredients for a NY sauce.

I think dried oregano as well, after watching that video a few times you can definitely see the oregano in the sauce already before he cooks it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 03, 2018, 01:43:10 PM
That's really close to what I've been doing lately.

I've been milling whole peeled tomatoes with basil for my NY sauce. IMO that is the perfect basil flavor, and I seem to prefer that to adding basil myself. Tomatoes packed with basil is just a different flavor than adding basil to a can of tomatoes. It has so much more time to marinate, it's not too intense or too mild like I often get when using fresh basil the day of my bake.

Been mincing in a clove of raw garlic, just does something different that the powders don't. Though I'm still not 100% sure if garlic truly needs to be in the mix or not. The raw garlic has more of a savory
Been using crushed red in place of black pepper, maybe I will go back to the peppercorns.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 03, 2018, 06:23:31 PM
... Tomatoes packed with basil is just a different flavor than adding basil to a can of tomatoes...

The only tomato packed with basil that I've used is Cento "certified", but I used them consistently for a long period and never noticed any basil flavor. Probably an issue with my taste buds. It never made sense to me that they'd add it if it didn't impact the flavor.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pete-zza on October 03, 2018, 07:20:23 PM
The only tomato packed with basil that I've used is Cento "certified", but I used them consistently for a long period and never noticed any basil flavor. Probably an issue with my taste buds. It never made sense to me that they'd add it if it didn't impact the flavor.
Matt,

My recollection is that a long time ago one of our members said that there may have been a legal reason for placing just a single basil leaf in cans of tomatoes to be exported to the US (and maybe other countries as well). And the reason may have been taxes, maybe in the form of tariffs. In this vein, I found this blog post on Chowhound:

https://www.chowhound.com/post/san-marzano-dop-settle-bet-551713

Placing just a single basil leaf may have taken the tomatoes out of a category that was subject to tax or maybe the product was subject to a lower duty.

I also found a tariff document relating to tomatoes but I don't know if it applies to this matter:

https://www.flexport.com/data/hs-code/200210-tomatoes-whole-pieces-prep-pres-ex-vinegar-etc

The tariff issue is also mentioned in this article:

https://memoriediangelina.com/2009/10/12/buying-canned-tomatoes/

If you think about it, it does not seem to make sense to place just a single basil leaf in an entire can of tomatoes for the flavor impact of just that one basil leaf. There may even be some people with sensitive palates who wish the basil leaf was not placed in the can> And some may prefer to add basil themselves.

Peter



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 03, 2018, 08:07:11 PM
The only tomato packed with basil that I've used is Cento "certified", but I used them consistently for a long period and never noticed any basil flavor. Probably an issue with my taste buds. It never made sense to me that they'd add it if it didn't impact the flavor.

I vaguely remember a post from Craig where he said something along the lines of microwaving a bit of sauce with some fresh basil if the tomatoes weren't packed with basil, as he felt that flavor was fundamental to his pizza sauce. Or something like that  ;D Craig if you see this I'd be curious on your thoughts on packed basil flavor.

Also maybe your blending at the time was oxidizing that gentle flavor? Not sure but I've quickly become a food mill convert. Been thinking about adding in a paste component though, IDK, I get the thin sauce thing, it's more of an Italian style, passata I guess, whereas the paste component adds more of that Italian-American "red sauce" flavor - hearty, savory. A love/hate thing, I'm thinking!

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 03, 2018, 08:27:55 PM
Ryan, yeah I thought about my old blending habit as a possibility of destroying the basil flavor, but I frequently tasted the tomato straight from the can. I think Peter is likely onto something. It's fishy to have a single leaf in a 28oz can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 03, 2018, 08:32:09 PM
...Been thinking about adding in a paste component though, IDK, I get the thin sauce thing, it's more of an Italian style, passata I
 guess, whereas the paste component adds more of that Italian-American "red sauce" flavor - hearty, savory. A love/hate thing, I'm thinking!

Do you see a difference between a food mill and strainer? (Particularly if using crushed tomato)

Would adding enough water with the paste result in thin but savory? Its something I want to experiment again with at some point.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 04, 2018, 08:57:02 AM
I vaguely remember a post from Craig where he said something along the lines of microwaving a bit of sauce with some fresh basil if the tomatoes weren't packed with basil, as he felt that flavor was fundamental to his pizza sauce. Or something like that  ;D Craig if you see this I'd be curious on your thoughts on packed basil flavor.

Also maybe your blending at the time was oxidizing that gentle flavor? Not sure but I've quickly become a food mill convert. Been thinking about adding in a paste component though, IDK, I get the thin sauce thing, it's more of an Italian style, passata I guess, whereas the paste component adds more of that Italian-American "red sauce" flavor - hearty, savory. A love/hate thing, I'm thinking!

I've found that with the paste as the sauce gets thicker it tends to make the cheese melt and interact with the sauce differently but as always this is in my limited experience and can't really say I have enough bakes to make a firm statement hahah.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 04, 2018, 08:58:55 AM
Do you see a difference between a food mill and strainer? (Particularly if using crushed tomato)

Would adding enough water with the paste result in thin but savory? Its something I want to experiment again with at some point.

To gave that more savory sauce have you tried cooking the sauce? It's one of the primary reasons I do a cook as opposed to raw.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 04, 2018, 09:32:11 AM
Ryan, yeah I thought about my old blending habit as a possibility of destroying the basil flavor, but I frequently tasted the tomato straight from the can. I think Peter is likely onto something. It's fishy to have a single leaf in a 28oz can.

I've seen 28 oz cans of Italian import tomatoes that have a single huge basil leaf in it, I believe that was another post from Craig. Ligurian basil leaves as big as my hand!

I've found that with the paste as the sauce gets thicker it tends to make the cheese melt and interact with the sauce differently but as always this is in my limited experience and can't really say I have enough bakes to make a firm statement hahah.

Yeah there's a bit of discussion in this thread about it, also another thread on here called "Thin But Not Watery"
The sauce consistency definitely changes the way the pizza boils and bakes together. Though I've had good melts with very thick and very thin sauce so I haven't reached any final conclusions either.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 05, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
I've seen 28 oz cans of Italian import tomatoes that have a single huge basil leaf in it, I believe that was another post from Craig. Ligurian basil leaves as big as my hand!

Yeah there's a bit of discussion in this thread about it, also another thread on here called "Thin But Not Watery"
The sauce consistency definitely changes the way the pizza boils and bakes together. Though I've had good melts with very thick and very thin sauce so I haven't reached any final conclusions either.

I've found thicker sauces create a harder distinction between the cheese and sauce layers, almost like a sandwich effect, while the thin ones tend to give a better melt/bubble and a higher level of blending between the layers (depending on the cheese used).

Personally, i prefer thin with just a little bit of a body texture to it, a happy medium.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 05, 2018, 02:00:44 PM
I can see that, that's interesting, I make a lot of thin n crispy pies sometimes with a thicker sauce so I like that sandwich analogy. I'm gonna try straining my whole tomatoes next bake from the canning juice, then mill them, and then see if I need to add any of the juice back in. I agree there's a happy medium, if it's too thin you can't get enough sauce on the pie and the water either sogs through or cooks off which isn't good either.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 06, 2018, 12:25:34 PM
Do parmesan and romano really play well together?

Sometimes I feel like I'm overshadowing and end up tasting less of each rather than a really distinct hit of one. I've experimented a bit with cheaper hard cheeses lately but the flavor just doesn't seem to stand out quite like the real deal.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Wushuliu on October 07, 2018, 02:50:18 PM
I strongly recommend to everyone, if you havent tried the following, do it asap. Many thanks again to Quietdesperation and Invertedisdead, this completely transformed my pizzas.

Use a rubber spatula to push a crushed tomato product through a mesh strainer. No additional tomato in the sauce. It's amazing.

Edit: "No additional tomato" meant that I'm just adding herbs and spices to my strained crushed tomato (7/11). I'm not mixing in any whole peeled tomato, puree, paste etc..

This was going to be my next experiment. Glad I came across this. Will try today. Thanks.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 07, 2018, 07:24:59 PM
This was going to be my next experiment. Glad I came across this. Will try today. Thanks.

Good luck. Dont forget to scrape and use the tomato that sticks to the underside of the strainer.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on October 07, 2018, 10:36:50 PM
1. Do parmesan and romano really play well together?



2. Sometimes I feel like I'm overshadowing and end up tasting less of each rather than a really distinct hit of one. I've experimented a bit with cheaper hard cheeses

1. Yes. They do. It's a good combo.

2. You're not "overshadowing", you are over experimenting things to the point where it actually makes no difference any more. The pizzas you make for friends and family might be awesome, but no one will notice the "subtle" changes.

Sorry to rain on your parade.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 08, 2018, 08:43:06 PM
Do parmesan and romano really play well together?

Sometimes I feel like I'm overshadowing and end up tasting less of each rather than a really distinct hit of one. I've experimented a bit with cheaper hard cheeses lately but the flavor just doesn't seem to stand out quite like the real deal.

I don't know. I stopped using romano in favor of parm-only several months ago when I starting thinking what you're thinking.

One pizzeria manager I spoke to said that parm is too mild and too expensive for pizzerias to use...but, the distributor we both use doesnt keep parm around just for me  :)

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on October 14, 2018, 01:07:33 PM
lately, I've been finding can-to-can variation with scalfani crushed. Last night, after pushing through a strainer and adding oregano. I felt there was too much acidity. The grated hard cheese I add helps tame acidity but decided to add 1/2 a teaspoon of sugar and it really helped the flavor pop. I always finish with some good evo.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 20, 2018, 06:35:12 PM
Teaspoon of fresh oregano in 28 oz milled 7/11 in yesterdays sauce, went very well.
Bit of olive oil, black pepper, fresh garlic, and a pinch of dried oregano too.

Stanislaus says all of this fresh flavor is in the velvet under the skin, I ate a spoonful of what was left behind in the food mill and it was not good.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 20, 2018, 07:37:50 PM
Teaspoon of fresh oregano in 28 oz milled 7/11 in yesterdays sauce, went very well.
Bit of olive oil, black pepper, fresh garlic, and a pinch of dried oregano too.

Stanislaus says all of this fresh flavor is in the velvet under the skin, I ate a spoonful of what was left behind in the food mill and it was not good.

Sounds like a great sauce to me. I hadnt thought of tasting the leftover skins, but I'm not surprised. I was thinking recently about the velvet claim and wondering if it separates from the skin when I strain it and stays in my sauce.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 20, 2018, 09:12:49 PM
Ryan and others, how does fresh garlic compare to granulated? One of my concerns with fresh would be that it might stay raw through the bake.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Hermit on October 20, 2018, 09:40:38 PM
Fresh garlic is more in your face, but I suspect it's due to the larger bits or slices.  I think it cooks enough as Emeril shows a step in creating the garlic butter in his garlic knots, to simmer the prrssed cloves in butter on medium heat for 3-4 mins, it always comes through really good.  Seems we get a sauce boil for at least 4 mins, so that's my hypothesis!

Personally I'm really liking a combination of California garlic salt and garlic powder.  Maybe I should try all 3  :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 20, 2018, 11:37:39 PM
Ryan and others, how does fresh garlic compare to granulated? One of my concerns with fresh would be that it might stay raw through the bake.

To me the raw garlic has a zesty type of zing to it that seems to get lost in the dried version. I think it's a more complex savory flavor versus dried.

You can also microwave or fry the garlic in oil for a minute which changes the flavor too.

You can mince or grate it, I was even thinking a mortar and pestle might work really well for a smooth pizza sauce base. Get the garlic, oregano, basil, chile, etc really mingling and bursting with flavor.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 21, 2018, 02:08:07 AM
Fresh garlic if "FRESH" is great, and there are many types of garlic. But fresh garlic bought in the produce section at the grocer can vary widely and is not always dependable. If in doubt as to the ACTUAL freshness, and the cloves are on the softer end and starting to yellow a bit, better to go with "granulated". More consistent the garlic salts and powders. Ask anyone that makes sausage or spice blends etc, granulated garlic is often your best bet for consistent, reproducible results!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 21, 2018, 10:07:56 AM
I think granulated is consistent to measure but I just find the flavor night and day different. I also have some granulated roasted garlic that adds a bit different flavor. 



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 21, 2018, 09:37:55 PM
Thanks guys.

FWIW, fairly early in his time here, Harry once recommended using both fresh and granulated garlic in the same sauce.

I think if if I try fresh I'd grate it. It's probably worth a shot.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 21, 2018, 10:13:58 PM
Thanks guys.

FWIW, fairly early in his time here, Harry once recommended using both fresh and granulated garlic in the same sauce.

I think if if I try fresh I'd grate it. It's probably worth a shot.

I love using a micro plane for fresh garlic, watch those fingers though!😄
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Piezone on October 22, 2018, 07:31:00 AM
With fresh garlic, the intensity of the garlic taste is proportional to the damage the cell walls experience during chopping/grating etc. Microplaning will give you maximum 'bite' while using undamaged whole cloves will impart a much mellower flavour
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: gspinelli on October 22, 2018, 08:52:16 PM
Is there a reason why microplane seems popular now over the garlic press. Press is fast and finger friendly. Is there a flavor advantage to the microplane?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on October 23, 2018, 01:01:43 AM
Is there a reason why microplane seems popular now over the garlic press. Press is fast and finger friendly. Is there a flavor advantage to the microplane?

I mince garlic with a paring knife.  All I need is another single-purpose kitchen gadget.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 23, 2018, 01:34:04 AM
Is there a reason why microplane seems popular now over the garlic press. Press is fast and finger friendly. Is there a flavor advantage to the microplane?

Garlic presses never did work well. I had one and it sucked, bought another more expensive one and threw that away too. Now I only use a knife or the microplane. And God knows, I have my share of gadgets! :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: gspinelli on October 23, 2018, 06:14:59 AM
Thanks for the feedback on the microplane. I can understand the uni-tasker kitchen gadget argument. I agree that many garlic presses suck and that it can be performed easily with a knife. However I still like it for when I want really small pieces, and I don't even have to peel the cloves. I have an old metal ekco press and it works well enough. Was just wandering because you see the microplane on cooking shows so often now. I have one in my wood shop and it works well there for certain tasks, but grating against one seems less desirable.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 24, 2018, 03:47:18 AM
So after 20 pages of trials it seems as though ground tomatos straight out of the can is just to thick, so far what is the best meta NY Style Sauce? Strainer, food mill, immersion blender? Which blends stand out the most etc
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 24, 2018, 11:20:48 AM
So after 20 pages of trials it seems as though ground tomatos straight out of the can is just to thick, so far what is the best meta NY Style Sauce? Strainer, food mill, immersion blender? Which blends stand out the most etc

I believe quite a few places do use ground tomatoes straight out of the can, but to answer your question, IMO, the food mill. I've used the Blendtec, food processor, mesh strainer, and my hands  :-D

The mill cleans it up in ways the other methods don't, removing the seeds, skins, and unripe tomato bits. The strainer probably working second best. That said I think many professional establishments just use the stick blender. But I don't believe the results are the same, like using a food processor to make pesto versus a mortar and pestle.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 24, 2018, 01:48:25 PM
I believe quite a few places do use ground tomatoes straight out of the can, but to answer your question, IMO, the food mill. I've used the Blendtec, food processor, mesh strainer, and my hands  :-D

The mill cleans it up in ways the other methods don't, removing the seeds, skins, and unripe tomato bits. The strainer probably working second best. That said I think many professional establishments just use the stick blender. But I don't believe the results are the same, like using a food processor to make pesto versus a mortar and pestle.
Does the food mill thin it out or is blending with whole tomatos required to thin it out? I'm looking to thinout my sauce but I don't know how to go about it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 24, 2018, 01:51:34 PM
I just put two 655 gram dough balls in the fridge - I plan to thin my 70% strained 7/11 and 30% Full Red mixture with CENTO Passata until it seems about right - I think 50/50 will work but I'll let you know how it goes...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 24, 2018, 02:42:13 PM
Alright Norm, sounds good. In the meantime I'll purchase a food mill soon, probably an OXO.

BTW how has that deck oven treating you?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 24, 2018, 02:46:58 PM
Does the food mill thin it out or is blending with whole tomatos required to thin it out? I'm looking to thinout my sauce but I don't know how to go about it.

It thins it out some when milling, depends on what you're looking for. A tablespoon of water would probably thin it any more if you needed it. If you're mixing in a concentrated product like Norm, that could require more adjustments. It really depends on how much sauce you're making, sometimes I think it would be easier to make pizza sauce if I WAS making a big commercial sized batch as I could use whole cans of product.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 24, 2018, 03:00:14 PM
This will be my first time trying CENTO Passata - I think thinning with water would dilute the flavor of just about anything. The full red in the sauce really amps up the flavor but it is too thick even with the strained 7/11. I did make a pie with it and I was able to get it covered but it did not have the best consistency (viscosity) after cooking. I'm hoping the CENTO Passata will thin out the mix and not dilute the flavor too much. Fingers crossed....

The deck oven does something magical to the bottom of the crust - I don't know how exactly - but I could never get that exact texture out of my home oven and I have made hundreds and hundreds of pies over the decades. Funny when I was working in the pizza shops back in the 70s I don't remember it being so magical but that was likely because all the pizza I consumed was coming from the places I worked or other shops with deck ovens. Or maybe it is just too long ago for anyone's memory to be that precise / detailed...

BTW, I have tried a wire strainer, and several different food mills, the attachment for my KA works the best but if your only doing one 28 oz can at a time the OXO mill should work fine.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 24, 2018, 03:07:08 PM
This will be my first time trying CENTO Passata - I think thinning with water would dilute the flavor of just about anything.

I would think the water should be gone by the time the pie is baked and the sauce concentrates back down, it would only serve to get the sauce on the pie. As far as I recall a tomato is 90%+ water anyways. I agree with you and I would rather use tomato products too for the bulk of it, but if it was 90% of the way there I think a drop of water would be fine to adjust viscosity, I've done it many times when I didn't have quite enough sauce for another pie and needed a bit of water to make it stretch.

I would expect the Cento Passata to be pretty similar to your milled 7/11 as passata is also milled. They have the glass jarred version here but I've not yet tried it, though I did just get a tetrapak of a different passata today.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 24, 2018, 05:08:36 PM
The best we can do is try different things, and share what we observe with our friends here  :pizza: :pizza: :pizza:
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 07:03:48 PM
With regard to earlier posts on Garlic in pizza sauce... The best garlic I've ever used that seems to give me that pizzeria taste is dried minced garlic added to the sauce that is then given at least a 24 hours to sit in the fridge.  Fresh garlic always seemed to bitter for me in the sauce and granulated garlic or garlic powder seemed too always be to strong.  The minced dried garlic seems to impart a nice garlic flavor without the bitterness that isn't overpowering. 

This discussion does have me thinking about cutting the top off an entire garlic bulb, pouring olive oil over it and roasting it until the cloves come out like a spreadable butter.  Perhaps that mellow roasted garlic smashed up into a paste and added to the sauce would be perfection?  I personally only like that "hint" of garlic in the sauce that says it's there but doesn't overpower anything.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 24, 2018, 07:09:14 PM
Never thought about that, how about the use of anchovies in the sauce for a savory flavor style?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 07:26:08 PM
Minced anchovies are a secret ingredient that is sometimes added to marinara and meat sauces for pasta but when it comes to NYS pizza, I think starting down that road starts to take away from what NYS pizza is about that is supposed to consist of a bright very lightly seasoned sauce (if any seasonings at all other than perhaps fresh basil sprinkled on after the bake) combined with a flavorful dough and top quality cheese.  Quite frankly, my addition of a hint of garlic in my sauce is the first step in deviating from some would say is authentic NYS pizza sauce.  Fresh garlic is often offered as an optional topping where it is not added to the sauce.     
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 24, 2018, 07:51:02 PM
For years I've been growing my own seasonal tomatoes.  I plant a mix of tomatoes but these days my patch is dominated by Lemon Boys!  Lemon boys are a very low acid and very sweet tomato (best of both worlds).  Yes, they are yellow when they are ripe and aren't red but that is of no matter because that gets fixed later.  When I am harvesting I wait until I have enough for a LARGE cooking pot.  I then cut them up and throw them in the pot along with other types of tomatoes that may be ready and I don't know what to do with until it is stuffed to the top and turn on the heat.  They immediately start to shed their water and I start smashing and turning them over.  Within a few minutes I end up with a very soft watery mix of tomatoes.  In the past I would then take this and run it through a tomato mill but what a messy hassle.  I grab my cheap stick blender and shove that in there and blend up everything... skins, seeds and all but not to the point of tomato soup as I still want some texture.   As the mix comes to a boil I skim off the foamy acid that gathers on the top for those first say 5-10 minutes of boiling (if you ever wonder why you skim that foam off as it forms take a taste of it - YUCK - Pure Acid).  I then add salt, sugar, dry oregano, dried crushed red pepper, a few fennel seeds that I've ground up in a mortar and pestle, a little dried minced garlic and some EVOO.  The key is you don't want to cook the sauce very long.  It would take hours to reduce it to a pizza sauce consistency as you have tomato soup on your hands right now and you'd lose all the fresh flavor.  So, now I cheat and start adding cans of tomato paste and mixing them in to the point I have the consistency of a thin pizza sauce that I want (it also turns the sauce red now).  Once there, it comes off the heat and I then stir in fresh chopped basil that I also grow. It then goes into storage containers and immediately into the freezer to be used as I see fit.  I have cases of 7/11 that I fall back on when the homemade pizza sauce is gone but 7/11 can't hold a candle to the homemade. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 24, 2018, 07:59:52 PM
True, NY sauce is supposed to be bright, fresh and distinctly tomato.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 24, 2018, 08:30:31 PM
Minced anchovies are a secret ingredient that is sometimes added to marinara and meat sauces for pasta but when it comes to NYS pizza, I think starting down that road starts to take away from what NYS pizza is about that is supposed to consist of a bright very lightly seasoned sauce (if any seasonings at all other than perhaps fresh basil sprinkled on after the bake) combined with a flavorful dough and top quality cheese.  Quite frankly, my addition of a hint of garlic in my sauce is the first step in deviating from some would say is authentic NYS pizza sauce.  Fresh garlic is often offered as an optional topping where it is not added to the sauce.   

I respectfully disagree with much of this. Based on all that I've read/studied, the sauces I've bought from pizzerias in NY, and my own experiments, many NY slices have complex sauces with many ingredients. The balance within the sauce keeps any one ingredient from standing out. I've never seen fresh basil added to a classic slice  post bake either. And while anchovies may not be very common now, romano is.

Here's a video I previously posted on my thread of a sauce I bought from a typical pizzeria in Queens. You can see how much seasoning is floating in it, and how thin the sauce is.

It took me a while to accept the fact that its the sauce that flavors the pizza, not the mozz.

https://youtu.be/g87S1VYlHNo
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 24, 2018, 09:48:53 PM
I rarely do anything the same way twice, but there is a common theme to my NY sauce.

7/11 or Alta Cucina
A portion gets cooked (sometimes I use Saporito for the cooked portion).
The cooked portion gets anchovy paste, red pepper, black pepper, garlic, oil and a pinch of oregano.
I add pecorino and fresh basil and mill or stick blend everything.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: the1mu on October 24, 2018, 10:01:17 PM
When people here say red pepper, what kind of red pepper are you using? There are so many kinds......
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 24, 2018, 10:08:38 PM
When people here say red pepper, what kind of red pepper are you using? There are so many kinds......

If your life depended on it, what kind would you assume?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: the1mu on October 24, 2018, 10:23:20 PM
If your life depended on it, what kind would you assume?

Iím gonna assume Iím dead! Haha.

The top three in my mind could be chili flakes, paprika, or chili powder. But I donít think itís any of those, so thatís why Iím asking.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 24, 2018, 11:21:17 PM
Iím gonna assume Iím dead! Haha.

The top three in my mind could be chili flakes, paprika, or chili powder. But I donít think itís any of those, so thatís why Iím asking.

Crushed red pepper that you find in a shaker jar in every pizzeria.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: the1mu on October 24, 2018, 11:26:35 PM
Crushed red pepper that you find in a shaker jar in every pizzeria.
Ok. Thatís what I call chili flakes..... thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on October 24, 2018, 11:50:15 PM
Crushed red pepper that you find in a shaker jar in every pizzeria.
I have grown and dried that several times. I remove the seeds from half of them before drying and find it is the ideal heat level for me. It does not take many plants to make a years worth. Fun to give away too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on October 25, 2018, 12:00:58 AM
With regard to earlier posts on Garlic in pizza sauce... The best garlic I've ever used that seems to give me that pizzeria taste is dried minced garlic added to the sauce that is then given at least a 24 hours to sit in the fridge.  Fresh garlic always seemed to bitter for me in the sauce and granulated garlic or garlic powder seemed too always be to strong.  The minced dried garlic seems to impart a nice garlic flavor without the bitterness that isn't overpowering. 

This discussion does have me thinking about cutting the top off an entire garlic bulb, pouring olive oil over it and roasting it until the cloves come out like a spreadable butter.  Perhaps that mellow roasted garlic smashed up into a paste and added to the sauce would be perfection?  I personally only like that "hint" of garlic in the sauce that says it's there but doesn't overpower anything.
I agree with most of this and your other two posts. Do you find the jarred minced garlic gels the sauce once it rehydrates? DoughDoctor has written quite a bit about fresh garlic doing this.


When I make pizza sauce I donít think of it as NY sauce. I always use quite a bit of olive oil - first and last ingredient in. Typically I heat a peeled halved clove in the oil for a couple minutes, remove and discard it (maybe use it further if sauteeing mushrooms that night). Once in a while I slice, chop, and make a paste out of garlic with the knife and coarse salt and add it to the warm oil, followed quickly by the tomato product. Iím not a fan of raw garlic or using lots of garlic in anything. Roasting cloves or the knife and salt grinding to a paste are the two ways I like best. I canít tolerate anchovies at all.


Your lemon boys sauce idea is good. Iíve grown and used them as great slicers and chopped and quick cooked as condiment for pasta, but never considered that they could be turned red for pizza.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 25, 2018, 12:08:33 AM
Crushed red pepper that you find in a shaker jar in every pizzeria.

Aleppo chili flakes also a very good choice! A little spendier, not much, but more character and depth!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 25, 2018, 12:12:57 AM
I often use dried minced garlic and it will thicken the sauce with time.  Not a bad thing when using Alta Cucina.  I like it because it is sweeter without the bite.  When I use fresh garlic, I smack it with the heel of my hand and add it to the cooked portion of my sauce and then remove it.  It adds a sweet rather than harsh garlic note.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 25, 2018, 01:03:37 AM
I canít tolerate anchovies at all.


You'd never detect in my sauce.  I add a 1/4 tsp to the sauce for a 20" pie to provide some salt and umami.  I try to keep the tomato front and center.  The acidity must not be overwhelmed.  It's the pivot between the cheese and the toasty/nuttiness of the crust.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 25, 2018, 01:23:36 AM
What I like to do often with garlic is this, as mentioned previously roast them, like a half dozen at a time. Cut the tops exposing the cloves, set on squares of foil  drizzle with olive oil and salt, wrap and roast til soft, brown and sweet. When cool enough to handle but still warm, squeeze into a container, mash with some olive oil and freeze. When needed nuke for 20-30 seconds to soften and scoop out what you need and refreeze, GREAT way to use garlic, and always use the freshest you can find!!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 25, 2018, 06:38:57 AM
I rarely do anything the same way twice, but there is a common theme to my NY sauce.

7/11 or Alta Cucina
A portion gets cooked (sometimes I use Saporito for the cooked portion).
The cooked portion gets anchovy paste, red pepper, black pepper, garlic, oil and a pinch of oregano.
I add pecorino and fresh basil and mill or stick blend everything.

That sounds great. I'm not ready to make the number of changes to my sauce to replicate it immediately, but I'm very tempted to try a bit of anchovy paste as I've been curious about it for a while. If you added a 1/4 tsp for 20" pie, maybe I'll do 1/8 tsp for 16".

But, what do you guys think about the anchovy paste going into a raw uncooked sauce?

Also, is there a big difference in quality/flavor across different brands of paste or can I just buy whatever the supermarket has in stock?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: 00rgiles on October 25, 2018, 06:43:09 AM
Iím nervous about using garlic or garlic oil in my sauces, isnít there some unpleasant disease that can come from garlic... anyone know if thatís right and how it may be safe to use garlic?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 06:57:26 AM
Matt, I have never found an anchovy paste that I though tasted any good - if you are just checking anchovies out I recommend you buy a small tin (the ones that are about 3 inches by 1 inch) and mush the meat up you are going to use with a fork - They always taste better IMHO....

You will have some left - and if your interested -- the best cheese bread I have ever tasted was made with anchovies - happy to try to dig up the recipe if you are interested and have some extra anchovy you want to use up....

PS - remember they are very salty :-)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on October 25, 2018, 11:27:22 AM
I've been adding a small amount of Worcestershire sauce to my mix of 7/11 and either Alta Cucina or Saporito, thinned with water as needed (and black pepper and granulated garlic). Like, a teaspoon to 8-9 quarts of sauce. I figure it's almost authentic if you consider it British garum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum).
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 11:34:28 AM
I need to try the Worcestershire sauce thing since my wife will not eat / meat fish - it would be great if that works since she has some vegan Worcestershire sauce....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Hermit on October 25, 2018, 11:42:52 AM
I've been adding a small amount of Worcestershire sauce to my mix of 7/11 and either Alta Cucina or Saporito, thinned with water as needed (and black pepper and granulated garlic). Like, a teaspoon to 8-9 quarts of sauce. I figure it's almost authentic if you consider it British garum (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum).

I like this idea, I had thought about adding in a single drop to my 7oz of sauce I put on my normal pies.  I also thought about using half a tsp of grape jelly instead of white sugar.  Maybe tonight I'll give it a spin.

Ryan's experiment with using a lil bit of minced pepperoncini or it's vinegar got me using it regularly and it does something special to my sauce with the tomatoes I use (usually S&W or Contadina brand 5# cans).

I found I really like a combo of garlic powder, garlic salt, black pepper, oregano, banana pepper vinegar and sugar.  I also cook my WP tomato juice down to a sauce and add that in to my blended strained WP tomatoes, this is how I judge the sauce thickness so I dont have to add water.  I think that combination of fresh and cooked do wonders to the depth of the sauce.

I'm always looking to improve the sauce, and Matt's logic that the sauce flavors the pie is critical IMO.  I've had bland sauced NY slices and while it was good, it could have been better, I'd rather the sauce bring it and everything else either lay out as complimentary flavors but more importantly texture.  The decadence of the slice is also influenced by the sauce, not just the flavors but the texture and viscosity.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 25, 2018, 12:28:06 PM
Lots of great stuff from everyone, alot for me to think about. And just after I said I was happy with my sauce  :-D

Norm, when you say you haven't found a good tasting achovy paste, is that when its a main conponent of a dish, or also in minuscule amounts like 1/8 tsp on a loaded 16" pie?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 12:55:19 PM
It is tasting it right from a tube compared to what an anchovy filet tastes like - I have never had any out of a tube (already ground up) that did not make me regret buying it - tiny cans (or bigger cans) of filets are so so much better. I can take anchovy filets out of a tin put them on a slice of bread and enjoy them - the stuff out of a tube is like barf toothpaste :-)

PS. anchovy filets are good on pizza but I only like them applied post bake.... big difference if they are cooked on the pie - but that is just my taste buds. I think they would be fine in the sauce (in small amounts).
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on October 25, 2018, 05:54:24 PM
Anchovy filets are good on pizza but I only like them applied post bake.... big difference if they are cooked on the pie - but that is just my taste buds. I think they would be fine in the sauce (in small amounts).

I love anchovies - I'll eat them right out of the can (or jar) but if I am going to do anchovies I too prefer to tear up the little fillets and drop the pieces on a portion of the pie just when it comes out of the oven (that is also the time I'll add fresh snipped basil to the pie if I have it).  Anchovies baked on the pie (for me personally) always seem to over-power everything as their oil spreads out across and flavors everything.  A little anchovy goes a long way and leftover cold pizza the next day with anchovies isn't a favorite topping if there is going to be "next day" pizza left over.  I've minced them up very fine and smashed them up and put them in sauces before but even in a minuscule amount I still taste the anchovy (perhaps just because I knew I added it?) and am not a personal fan of the way they change the flavor of a pizza or marinara sauce.  Some in a meat sauce for pasta is different as they do enhance the meaty flavor when used in a sauce that has pork and beef in it.  Maybe they are best used as a true "secret ingredient" as in don't tell ANYONE you put them in the sauce and then they won't taste them or know where that different flavor but that is a dangerous thing to do as some people are allergic to seafood and could have a bad reaction to even a small amount added to a sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 06:05:40 PM
Getting ready to fire up the BP GP-61 for the 7/11 / Full Red mix thinned with some CENTO passata test - dough was supposed to be a 48 hr CF but came out of the mixer hot and moved fast - so it is go time tonight.

Also going to try 1/2 of my cheese pizza with some fromage cheese - it melts like a dream (super gooey and stretchy) so I have high hopes.....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on October 25, 2018, 06:20:51 PM
Getting ready to fire up the BP GP-61 for the 7/11 / Full Red mix thinned with some CENTO passata test - dough was supposed to be a 48 hr CF but came out of the mixer hot and moved fast - so it is go time tonight.

Also going to try 1/2 of my cheese pizza with some fromage cheese - it melts like a dream (super gooey and stretchy) so I have high hopes.....

Norm my plate is ready  ;D

Can't wait to see those big slices!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 25, 2018, 07:47:02 PM
They are going to be huge :-0

Warming up on the counter now!

PS. I put a touch of calabrian peppers in the sauce - it really tastes better!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on October 26, 2018, 12:48:05 AM
Maybe they are best used as a true "secret ingredient" as in don't tell ANYONE you put them in the sauce and then they won't taste them or know where that different flavor but that is a dangerous thing to do as some people are allergic to seafood and could have a bad reaction to even a small amount added to a sauce.
Excellent point. That is the boat Iím in. I am the first to say I do not like fish but wish I did as it would greatly expand my menu and cooking chops. I do like other seafood. Itís enough to keep me from eating fish, particilalry anchovies to just say I donít like them at all but wish I did. The other thing that happens, which is also plenty good enough reason to avoid, is that I get poison ivy like symptoms all over my body after eating fish. Iíve not been tested for the allergy because of my fisrt listed reason I just donít think I need to know if I follow my plan to avoid fish, especially anchovies. The problem is I have been lied to several times from family and from restaurants. I have lost the battle to refrain from being quite nauceous just outside the nearest door at some otherwise nice restaurants. It takes bout 15 minutes to recover enough to rejoin my table and watch the others finish their meals while my poison ivy like symptoms quickly develop beneath my clothera. How would you tip on that experience? :)


Thank you for your statements on not hiding it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on October 26, 2018, 02:03:37 AM
Excellent point. That is the boat Iím in. I am the first to say I do not like fish but wish I did as it would greatly expand my menu and cooking chops. I do like other seafood. Itís enough to keep me from eating fish, particilalry anchovies to just say I donít like them at all but wish I did. The other thing that happens, which is also plenty good enough reason to avoid, is that I get poison ivy like symptoms all over my body after eating fish. Iíve not been tested for the allergy because of my fisrt listed reason I just donít think I need to know if I follow my plan to avoid fish, especially anchovies. The problem is I have been lied to several times from family and from restaurants. I have lost the battle to refrain from being quite nauceous just outside the nearest door at some otherwise nice restaurants. It takes bout 15 minutes to recover enough to rejoin my table and watch the others finish their meals while my poison ivy like symptoms quickly develop beneath my clothera. How would you tip on that experience? :)


Thank you for your statements on not hiding it.

Tony, GET TESTED!
My favorite way to use anchovies and not have them toooo up front, is to mash them with a fork in some hot brown butter in a small fry pan till they melt into a wonderful loose buttery paste, great schmeared on even just a piece of toasted baguette! Add some roasted garlic paste to it and......... :drool: Add that to ANY sauce for an umami boom!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on October 26, 2018, 10:21:42 AM
Looking at the Stanislaus site, Alta Cucina are described as plum tomatoes, and the Saporito filets have the "mouth feel of hand-crushed Italian plum tomatoes". The other filet products don't specify, or allude, to either plum or pear.

The only product described as pear tomatoes are the Valoroso "Robusto" style whole tomatoes. The crushed and concentrated products don't declare themselves either way, so I assume they're a blend of pear and plum flesh and/or juice. However, the 80/40 filets are "Robusto Style" which may indicate pear.


Has anyone tried the Valoroso, milled or blended, alone or in combination with another Stanislaus product, to see what they bring to the table?

I just blended down two cans of A/C and a can of 7/11 for today's bake. The viscosity looks perfect.   :)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norcoscia on October 26, 2018, 10:44:21 AM
Well the CENTO Passata was a bit of a flop - dulled the flavor of the 7/11 full red mix - still tasted good but better w/o it. Fromage cheese was really good. Posted about the pies here

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg548870#msg548870
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on October 26, 2018, 10:57:28 AM
Tony, GET TESTED!
My favorite way to use anchovies and not have them toooo up front, is to mash them with a fork in some hot brown butter in a small fry pan till they melt into a wonderful loose buttery paste, great schmeared on even just a piece of toasted baguette! Add some roasted garlic paste to it and......... :drool: Add that to ANY sauce for an umami boom!
Oh wow, that's a smart way to include anchovies!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 26, 2018, 01:56:48 PM
Looking at the Stanislaus site, Alta Cucina are described as plum tomatoes, and the Saporito filets have the "mouth feel of hand-crushed Italian plum tomatoes". The other filet products don't specify, or allude, to either plum or pear.

The only product described as pear tomatoes are the Valoroso "Robusto" style whole tomatoes. The crushed and concentrated products don't declare themselves either way, so I assume they're a blend of pear and plum flesh and/or juice. However, the 80/40 filets are "Robusto Style" which may indicate pear.


Has anyone tried the Valoroso, milled or blended, alone or in combination with another Stanislaus product, to see what they bring to the table?

I just blended down two cans of A/C and a can of 7/11 for today's bake. The viscosity looks perfect.   :)

I thought Thursday was bake day?

I tried Valoroso a few years ago.  I know I liked them, but now I want to revisit.  My wife just picked up a loaf of mozz yesterday.  I'll be using it up this weekend making pizzas for my son's football team so I'll need to go get some more next week.   I think I'll pick up some single cans of Stanislaus products I haven't tried.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on October 27, 2018, 12:41:52 AM
I thought Thursday was bake day?

It's the Platonic ideal, but subject to weather.  :P   :-D

It was a nice day, and I got a late start, so I played hooky for an hour. 22 pies, and 2 qt. of sauce left over for Sunday. :)


I think I'm making a RD run Saturday; I thought pizza season was almost done but Wednesday looks possible and I'm out of pepperoni... firing up the smoker on Sunday, when the wind's supposed to die down.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on October 27, 2018, 12:46:45 AM
It's the Platonic ideal, but subject to weather.  :P   :-D

It was a nice day, and I got a late start, so I played hooky for an hour. 22 pies, and 2 qt. of sauce left over for Sunday. :)


I think I'm making a RD run Saturday; I thought pizza season was almost done but Wednesday looks possible and I'm out of pepperoni... firing up the smoker on Sunday, when the wind's supposed to die down.

You need to enclose that oven...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 27, 2018, 10:01:23 AM
It's the Platonic ideal, but subject to weather.  :P   :-D

It was a nice day, and I got a late start, so I played hooky for an hour. 22 pies, and 2 qt. of sauce left over for Sunday. :)


I think I'm making a RD run Saturday; I thought pizza season was almost done but Wednesday looks possible and I'm out of pepperoni... firing up the smoker on Sunday, when the wind's supposed to die down.

Steve- Which Restaurant Depot pepperoni do you like?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on October 27, 2018, 11:57:42 AM
I've been getting the Hormel Bold in the 10# box--two 5# pillow packs. I can get the 25# case closer to home (2x12.5# bags) but I like having the smaller pillow that I can use up in a couple weeks. I might only make it halfway to Colonie today; I'll get some stopgap BelGioso in Whitehall and save the RD run for next month (when the new specials are published).


It's almost time for the Stanislaus distributors' end of year got-to-make-our-quota sale. I put seven or eight cases in the basement last year.  :)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 27, 2018, 03:17:18 PM
I've been getting the Hormel Bold in the 10# box--two 5# pillow packs. I can get the 25# case closer to home (2x12.5# bags) but I like having the smaller pillow that I can use up in a couple weeks. I might only make it halfway to Colonie today; I'll get some stopgap BelGioso in Whitehall and save the RD run for next month (when the new specials are published).


It's almost time for the Stanislaus distributors' end of year got-to-make-our-quota sale. I put seven or eight cases in the basement last year.  :)

Thanks, Steve!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on October 27, 2018, 06:35:41 PM
Thanks, Steve!

I just got back from the store in Whitehall NY. On my way out they gave me a sample of a high-end sliced pepperoni they just started carrying, for a restaurant in Burlington. It was Ezzo; the slice I measured was 44mm, fibrous case (stripped before slicing), and they said it was about $4/lb.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on October 27, 2018, 06:41:34 PM
I just got back from the store in Whitehall NY. On my way out they gave me a sample of a high-end sliced pepperoni they just started carrying, for a restaurant in Burlington. It was Ezzo; the slice I measured was 44mm, fibrous case (stripped before slicing), and they said it was about $4/lb.
I think that's the closest place to Albany that will sell to a non-business.

Edit: I mean that will sell Ezzo to the non business.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: CIZ28 on November 12, 2018, 07:41:00 AM
Typical NY Style slice joint orange blanket pizza that is all over NY/NJ/PA is all made basically the same. Usually with cost and good enough ingredients in mind. Heavy or super heavy ďpizza sauceĒ with lots of water, then mixed with crushed tomatoes. Sometimes itís 50/50, but usually less. Then salt, sugar, and black pepper usually go in. Optional things which normally happen are dried oregano and garlic powder. Sometimes dried basil, crushed red pepper, and parmigiano. Every place is different and has a different method. Some things will be added before the pizza hits the oven.

There you have it.

Actual good pizza places and anything like NY Elite style or Neapolitan are typically high quality crushed tomatoes and salt and maybe pepper. The rest is usually always added as the pizza is being built on the peel. The focus will be more on taste vs being fast and saving as much money possible because people are there paying for a better product.  ;)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on November 12, 2018, 08:07:45 AM
Typical NY Style slice joint orange blanket pizza that is all over NY/NJ/PA is all made basically the same. Usually with cost and good enough ingredients in mind. Heavy or super heavy ďpizza sauceĒ with lots of water, then mixed with crushed tomatoes. Sometimes itís 50/50, but usually less. Then salt, sugar, and black pepper usually go in. Optional things which normally happen are dried oregano and garlic powder. Sometimes dried basil, crushed red pepper, and parmigiano. Every place is different and has a different method. Some things will be added before the pizza hits the oven.

There you have it.

Actual good pizza places and anything like NY Elite style or Neapolitan are typically high quality crushed tomatoes and salt and maybe pepper. The rest is usually always added as the pizza is being built on the peel. The focus will be more on taste vs being fast and saving as much money possible because people are there paying for a better product.  ;)

Interesting post. But aren't the Hybrid and Neapolitan places you mentioned also making pizza "basically the same" within their respective genre? It's not like there is much room for variation in a coal style pizza, especially when they are all using a simple plain crushed tomato.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on November 12, 2018, 02:13:10 PM
You're wrong. Maybe PA pizza. Not NJ or NY.

Most places (the good ones) use whole peeled tomatoes (including Joe's, Williamsburg pizza, and others) I'm finding this is very important to achieve the right look of the sauce and cheese melt (the orange look where the cheese melts into the sauce and doesn't brown.) You even see this with newer spots doing it right, like Good Pie. Vin uses peeled italian tomatoes - and gets the right melt.

It has to do with moisture content you only get from the whole peeled tomatoes packed in juice. Crushed tomatoes, Like Jersey fresh or Tomato magic, are far too thick.

I say this frequently, but no one seems to listen - a good NY slice is all about the details and ratios. Balance. The right sauce consistency, the right mozzarella, the right dough, in the right proportions tied together by baking at the right temperature for the right amount of time. That's what takes something pretty typical across thousands of different pizzerias and elevates it.

Also - let me say the sauce should never be cooked or doctored up. It completely obscures the taste of the mozzarella. You're looking for flavors of lightly cooked tomato, milk, salt, good bread. Maybe some herb (good oregano) and/or hard cheese.

Typical NY Style slice joint orange blanket pizza that is all over NY/NJ/PA is all made basically the same. Usually with cost and good enough ingredients in mind. Heavy or super heavy ďpizza sauceĒ with lots of water, then mixed with crushed tomatoes. Sometimes itís 50/50, but usually less. Then salt, sugar, and black pepper usually go in. Optional things which normally happen are dried oregano and garlic powder. Sometimes dried basil, crushed red pepper, and parmigiano. Every place is different and has a different method. Some things will be added before the pizza hits the oven.

There you have it.

Actual good pizza places and anything like NY Elite style or Neapolitan are typically high quality crushed tomatoes and salt and maybe pepper. The rest is usually always added as the pizza is being built on the peel. The focus will be more on taste vs being fast and saving as much money possible because people are there paying for a better product.  ;)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on November 12, 2018, 02:15:55 PM
I've used the Ezzo flat pepperoni and it's a little too thick/not fatty enough for my taste. I would be interested in trying the larger, thinner sandwich style pepperoni they make.

I'm a big fan of the salumeria pepperoni. But it's not cheap.

I just got back from the store in Whitehall NY. On my way out they gave me a sample of a high-end sliced pepperoni they just started carrying, for a restaurant in Burlington. It was Ezzo; the slice I measured was 44mm, fibrous case (stripped before slicing), and they said it was about $4/lb.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: CIZ28 on November 12, 2018, 03:35:39 PM
Interesting post. But aren't the Hybrid and Neapolitan places you mentioned also making pizza "basically the same" within their respective genre? It's not like there is much room for variation in a coal style pizza, especially when they are all using a simple plain crushed tomato.

Theyíre making it similar for their style yes and not like the typical slice joint, which is the de-evolution of pizza as far as Iím concerned. Not sure I understand the question lol.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: CIZ28 on November 12, 2018, 04:01:18 PM
Nope. NY/NJ/Eastern PA slice joint pizza is all basically the same with slight variations. Made by people that have usually worked in NY or NJ as I have. Weíve all seen the same things over and over again in the business. State to state. Yes this goes for most places people consider to be ďgoodĒ too. The exceptions are the more famous or elite and Neapolitan places of course. Also any place that goes above and beyond the usual. Iím talking typical NY Style pizza place here. 7 or 8 out of 10 use almost all the same ingredients from the same suppliers. Pizza is definitely about balance, ratios, and details to me but most places are not interested in that. Itís a business first to most owners. BTW, Tomato Magic is excellent and can be thinned if desired. Stanislaus makes fantastic tomatoes. The cheese browning has to do with how the cheese melts and butterfat content. Certain cheese browns easy like Polly-O and others are resistant to it like Grande. Doesnít have much to do with the tomatoes aside from them being watery mixes with the cheese more and can slow the browning down, but the pizza will usually be a little too watery, which is something we donít want. Shame too because because the brown spots add flavor. Make a white pie with a few different cheeses and youíll see which have what characteristics. Also depends on temp and how the top heat is being distributed in the oven. Deck ovens are fickle and always cooking different based on how busy it is, which is why itís so difficult to get a consistent pizza. They also cook different in almost every spot of the oven and it takes time and experience with each different oven to learn it. Oven to oven even of the same brand will cook different. The same goes for the dough, it depends where it is in the fermentation process and is always changing. Cooked sauce can actually be delicious on pizza. Thereís a few that do it. I recall DiFara possibly being one. Not something I normally recommend though. Places donít usually have time to be cooking sauce for pizza and that is usually a homestyle type of thing to use a marinara sauce instead of good raw plum tomatoes.

You're wrong. Maybe PA pizza. Not NJ or NY.

Most places (the good ones) use whole peeled tomatoes (including Joe's, Williamsburg pizza, and others) I'm finding this is very important to achieve the right look of the sauce and cheese melt (the orange look where the cheese melts into the sauce and doesn't brown.) You even see this with newer spots doing it right, like Good Pie. Vin uses peeled italian tomatoes - and gets the right melt.

It has to do with moisture content you only get from the whole peeled tomatoes packed in juice. Crushed tomatoes, Like Jersey fresh or Tomato magic, are far too thick.

I say this frequently, but no one seems to listen - a good NY slice is all about the details and ratios. Balance. The right sauce consistency, the right mozzarella, the right dough, in the right proportions tied together by baking at the right temperature for the right amount of time. That's what takes something pretty typical across thousands of different pizzerias and elevates it.

Also - let me say the sauce should never be cooked or doctored up. It completely obscures the taste of the mozzarella. You're looking for flavors of lightly cooked tomato, milk, salt, good bread. Maybe some herb (good oregano) and/or hard cheese.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on November 15, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
I think you guys are both onto something to be honest.
It's fair to assume that what CIZ is saying is probably the rule, a lot of slice joints aren't going to go thru the work of milling or prepping whole peeled tomato's which is why they're just that; an average slice joint.
Places that are okay with providing a more solid product and don't want to sacrifice cost over quality like HotSawce mentioned will use whole peeled tomato's.

As for what you were saying HotSawce with regards to the the cooking, personally I've found the best sauces for pizzas are cooked.
There's been a ton of discussion in this thread versus cooking and non cooking, but I've found that cooking the sauce brings out some extra flavors and cuts down on the moisture just a little bit to thicken the sauce up but not to the level that prepared/packaged sauces come in.
Di'Fara's and Lucali are two well respected places that both cook their sauces, but it certainly is not the rule.

The idea of thinning sauce out with water though to me is sacrilege. I have a few friends in the business and they've never once mentioned thinning sauce out with water.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on November 15, 2018, 10:14:02 AM

The idea of thinning sauce out with water though to me is sacrilege. I have a few friends in the business and they've never once mentioned thinning sauce out with water.

A lot of people in the NY section would agree with you, but I always like to note that Norma won the Caputo Cup with watered down Saporito. Also Walter's got a fantastic sauce post from years back where he talks about some shops using watered down concentrates. People look at it as a cost saving thing but its ultimately just different. Harry Haller also had some great posts about sauces made with extra heavy purees and the corresponding flavor. As does Frank Giaquinto in Norma's classic videos, Frank said his FATHER even used Flotta pizza sauce back in the day.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on November 15, 2018, 10:26:45 AM
A lot of people in the NY section would agree with you, but I always like to note that Norma won the Caputo Cup with watered down Saporito. Also Walter's got a fantastic sauce post from years back where he talks about some shops using watered down concentrates. People look at it as a cost saving thing but its ultimately just different. Harry Haller also had some great posts about sauces made with extra heavy purees and the corresponding flavor.

It seems that the trend for adding water to sauce is more often that the starting point is a thicker base.
Like you said, Saporito is a "Super Heavy" sauce, and the others were starting from concentrates or purees. If the starting point is milled tomato's there's a ton of moisture already in tomato's themselves.
I guess you could say it's a cost saving method since you can basically make X amount more sauce by cutting it with water.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on November 15, 2018, 11:13:38 AM
If you tried to use straight Saporito super-heavy, you'd need to apply it with a putty knife.   :-D

I've used it in combination with 7/11 and *that's* too thick to spread, you need to thin it down. It fills out the flavor profile differently than a fresh(er) product. Alta Cucina (stick blended) + 7/11, on the other hand, is spreadable as mixed.


If you're in a small space, a case of Saporito can make 2-3 cases of finished sauce, so for a small, high-volume shop there's a storage aspect too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Wushuliu on November 15, 2018, 01:00:57 PM
Never thought about that, how about the use of anchovies in the sauce for a savory flavor style?

I am slowly honing in on a preferred sauce recipe for my NY-style pies and started adding fish sauce for the last couple of bakes. About a teaspoon or two of Thai Kitchen brand per strained 28oz can. No detectable fish taste and it gives a nice umami layer.

Since my focus is on nailing a great plain cheese recipe, I've found that more salt is needed than I typically see recommended. Salt and fat. After trying a couple different romanos I found the Locatelli brand and it definitely has the umami salt flavor of pizzas in my youth.

But the surprising star of my sauce trials so far has been the addition of ghee (clarified butter). About a teaspoon or two. It just pulls all the flavors together into a umami bomb. I imagine regular butter would work similarly. Makes sense though because of the combo of salt and fat, and more effectively to me than just oil.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: CIZ28 on November 16, 2018, 04:00:19 AM
If you tried to use straight Saporito super-heavy, you'd need to apply it with a putty knife.   :-D

I've used it in combination with 7/11 and *that's* too thick to spread, you need to thin it down. It fills out the flavor profile differently than a fresh(er) product. Alta Cucina (stick blended) + 7/11, on the other hand, is spreadable as mixed.


If you're in a small space, a case of Saporito can make 2-3 cases of finished sauce, so for a small, high-volume shop there's a storage aspect too.

Exactly and thatís how itís done in 8 out of 10 pizzerias. Heavy pizza sauce is thick tomato paste that has to have lots of water added to it, especially the super heavy. It is sweet and normally mixed with some actual crushed tomatoes. I can tell everyone that the sauce/tomatoes are unfortunately often an afterthought at most places and not where the money is spent. They usually focus more on the cheese and buy one good cheese to mix with a cheap cheese and good flour because you canít play around with the dough quality. The hard cheeses if used are also usually just some cheap supplier parmigiano or romano. Out of all the places Iíve worked and dumpster dove I can only think of a handful of that have used good quality tomatoes and hard cheese. Those are the most neglected ingredients. And the toppings if everything is canned and not fresh. Oh and oil. Oil that goes in dough in a typical place is always cheap soybean or canola oil. Anything that actually calls for oil on the pizza will usually be evoo or pure olive at least.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on November 16, 2018, 08:52:48 AM
I am slowly honing in on a preferred sauce recipe for my NY-style pies and started adding fish sauce for the last couple of bakes. About a teaspoon or two of Thai Kitchen brand per strained 28oz can. No detectable fish taste and it gives a nice umami layer.

Since my focus is on nailing a great plain cheese recipe, I've found that more salt is needed than I typically see recommended. Salt and fat. After trying a couple different romanos I found the Locatelli brand and it definitely has the umami salt flavor of pizzas in my youth.

But the surprising star of my sauce trials so far has been the addition of ghee (clarified butter). About a teaspoon or two. It just pulls all the flavors together into a umami bomb. I imagine regular butter would work similarly. Makes sense though because of the combo of salt and fat, and more effectively to me than just oil.

I started using butter in my sauce last year and I have to agree, it really pulls the sauce together and brightens the flavor. It makes a pretty notable difference and I take it a step further, using both oil and butter (Half oil and Half butter).

Exactly and thatís how itís done in 8 out of 10 pizzerias. Heavy pizza sauce is thick tomato paste that has to have lots of water added to it, especially the super heavy. It is sweet and normally mixed with some actual crushed tomatoes. I can tell everyone that the sauce/tomatoes are unfortunately often an afterthought at most places and not where the money is spent. They usually focus more on the cheese and buy one good cheese to mix with a cheap cheese and good flour because you canít play around with the dough quality. The hard cheeses if used are also usually just some cheap supplier parmigiano or romano. Out of all the places Iíve worked and dumpster dove I can only think of a handful of that have used good quality tomatoes and hard cheese. Those are the most neglected ingredients. And the toppings if everything is canned and not fresh. Oh and oil. Oil that goes in dough in a typical place is always cheap soybean or canola oil. Anything that actually calls for oil on the pizza will usually be evoo or pure olive at least.

It makes sense, from basically almost every business perspective it saves on both cost and time to use those ingredients. I think the owner of Scarr's pizza said (paraphrasing): "I thought pizza was dead, the time had passed and the market was done, but then there was a bit of a renaissance that started in Brooklyn" and he goes on to talk about how quality ingredients are what people are looking for now.
The same can kind of be said for the suburbs out here on the Island, a lot of the generic pizza spots are long gone, there's a stress on quality and being different. No one gives a %$# about what pizza costs out here unless its something far and away out of the norm, so everyone gravitates towards quality pizza places.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: CIZ28 on November 19, 2018, 10:57:44 AM
I started using butter in my sauce last year and I have to agree, it really pulls the sauce together and brightens the flavor. It makes a pretty notable difference and I take it a step further, using both oil and butter (Half oil and Half butter).

It makes sense, from basically almost every business perspective it saves on both cost and time to use those ingredients. I think the owner of Scarr's pizza said (paraphrasing): "I thought pizza was dead, the time had passed and the market was done, but then there was a bit of a renaissance that started in Brooklyn" and he goes on to talk about how quality ingredients are what people are looking for now.
The same can kind of be said for the suburbs out here on the Island, a lot of the generic pizza spots are long gone, there's a stress on quality and being different. No one gives a %$# about what pizza costs out here unless its something far and away out of the norm, so everyone gravitates towards quality pizza places.

Exactly, and Iím so glad itís been going that way in the last decade or so. Those are the places Iíll give my money to on days off every so often. If I actually feel like being around pizza more and not making my own  lol.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on November 19, 2018, 01:38:13 PM
I am slowly honing in on a preferred sauce recipe for my NY-style pies and started adding fish sauce for the last couple of bakes. About a teaspoon or two of Thai Kitchen brand per strained 28oz can. No detectable fish taste and it gives a nice umami layer.

Since my focus is on nailing a great plain cheese recipe, I've found that more salt is needed than I typically see recommended. Salt and fat. After trying a couple different romanos I found the Locatelli brand and it definitely has the umami salt flavor of pizzas in my youth.

But the surprising star of my sauce trials so far has been the addition of ghee (clarified butter). About a teaspoon or two. It just pulls all the flavors together into a umami bomb. I imagine regular butter would work similarly. Makes sense though because of the combo of salt and fat, and more effectively to me than just oil.

I make a darker, caramelish ghee, like the commercial says, "I put that shtt on everything"!!! God forgive me, I use it before bacon grease or lard most of the time!!! And I agree, great on pizza!!! I've done kind of a fried crust on foil with ghee on the bottom.....decadent!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 07:30:39 PM
I am slowly honing in on a preferred sauce recipe for my NY-style pies and started adding fish sauce for the last couple of bakes. About a teaspoon or two of Thai Kitchen brand per strained 28oz can. No detectable fish taste and it gives a nice umami layer.

Since my focus is on nailing a great plain cheese recipe, I've found that more salt is needed than I typically see recommended. Salt and fat. After trying a couple different romanos I found the Locatelli brand and it definitely has the umami salt flavor of pizzas in my youth.

But the surprising star of my sauce trials so far has been the addition of ghee (clarified butter). About a teaspoon or two. It just pulls all the flavors together into a umami bomb. I imagine regular butter would work similarly. Makes sense though because of the combo of salt and fat, and more effectively to me than just oil.

I like where you're headed. Sauce should have flavor in my view. Fish sauce + romano + ghee  :chef:

What are your preferred herbs? And sugar?


Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 09:44:10 PM
What are peoples thoughts on mixing crushed with paste? I'm thinking of trying 50% strained crushed with 50% diluted paste.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on November 19, 2018, 10:02:19 PM
What are peoples thoughts on mixing crushed with paste? I'm thinking of trying 50% strained crushed with 50% diluted paste.
I tried it and didn't like it, the paste muddled the flavor. However this was straight paste, I didn't glob it in either, maybe 2 dallops. Go ahead and try because your experience may differ.
It would work quite well in a stromboli where the extra viscosity is needed.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 19, 2018, 10:06:10 PM
...the paste muddled the flavor...

Yeah, I am concerned it'll be overpowering and that perhaps its all or nothing instead of mixing the 2. But I'm hoping that with the right ratio and thinness it'll just give the crushed tomato some extra oomph.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: the1mu on November 19, 2018, 10:09:35 PM
Yeah, I am concerned it'll be overpowering and that perhaps its all or nothing instead of mixing the 2. But I'm hoping that with the right ratio and thinness it'll just give the crushed tomato some extra oomph.

Iíve been using a 75/25 ratio of crushed to paste. Thickens the the sauce nicely without adding water. I think it adds a tad bit of umami without overpowering the freshness of the crushed. Works for me anyway....
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on November 19, 2018, 10:35:55 PM
I've used it in combination with 7/11 and *that's* too thick to spread, you need to thin it down.

What was your ratio?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: vtsteve on November 20, 2018, 12:55:09 AM
What was your ratio?

I was using one can of 7/11 mixed with 1/3 can Saporito super heavy sauce w/basil (and freezing 2 x 1/3 can for later batches).

I'd pre-thin the Saporito to roughly 7/11 consistency, add my pepper & garlic (and Worcestershire, when I remembered  :-D), pour the 7/11 on top and hit it with the stick blender to smooth it out, adding more water as needed.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Wushuliu on November 20, 2018, 12:57:42 AM
I like where you're headed. Sauce should have flavor in my view. Fish sauce + romano + ghee  :chef:

What are your preferred herbs? And sugar?

With the current recipe the only herbs are oregano and dwarf(?, the small pungent kind) basil. I add a tsp of sugar, cause it tastes good and to approximate sugar content of popular sauces like 7/11 etc. The Bianco DiNapoli I use has lower sugar content. However I'd prefer low sugar intake so will try out reducing or removing altogether.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on November 20, 2018, 09:13:46 PM
24 pages of cramps and anxiety attacks when the answer is so simple.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on November 20, 2018, 10:36:06 PM
What are peoples thoughts on mixing crushed with paste? I'm thinking of trying 50% strained crushed with 50% diluted paste.

Doooo it. For your style of pizza it will work great.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on November 21, 2018, 12:08:04 AM
I was using one can of 7/11 mixed with 1/3 can Saporito super heavy sauce w/basil (and freezing 2 x 1/3 can for later batches).

I'd pre-thin the Saporito to roughly 7/11 consistency, add my pepper & garlic (and Worcestershire, when I remembered  :-D), pour the 7/11 on top and hit it with the stick blender to smooth it out, adding more water as needed.

Thanks, Steve,

I use 3 #10 cans of 7/11, one #10 can of Saporito and a #10 of hand-crushed Alta Cucina. I don't see the need to pre-thin the Saporito since the others will lose enough liquid to do so.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on November 21, 2018, 01:14:12 AM
Thanks, Steve,

I use 3 #10 cans of 7/11, one #10 can of Saporito and a #10 of hand-crushed Alta Cucina. I don't see the need to pre-thin the Saporito since the others will lose enough liquid to do so.


I wish I made enough pizza to do that.  That's my dream blend.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on November 21, 2018, 01:52:42 PM

I wish I made enough pizza to do that.  That's my dream blend.

It's a lot of sauce, but it freezes very well in those containers:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00N2TADOY/ref=s9_acsd_hps_bw_c_x_2_w

However, I use that sauce also as a base for pasta sauces, meatball sandwiches, chicken parmigiana, lasagna and in soups and stews. It's pretty versatile. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 30, 2018, 06:17:40 PM
Bleecker Street. Screenshot of the sauce and a video. The sauce actually looks like a thicker version of mine. I also really like the melt on the cheese slice.

https://youtu.be/_rrU0t39z_A

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on November 30, 2018, 07:55:57 PM
After reading threads and threads about NYC pizza sauce I focused on the best tomatoe I could find and thats 7/11. I donít heat it. It  goes right on the pie room temp. So good. If thatís one thing I learned from this forum that would be it.

What I got from so many posts here is ď...save the spices for your spaghetti sauce..Ē.

I make a good thick spicy sauce for my Detroit pizza. NYC ..straight 7/11.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 30, 2018, 08:09:28 PM
I use 7/11 too. But love my sauce well seasoned with oregano and basil. To each his own, but just want to remind again that the out-of-the-can-plus-salt method isnt the only one. And that many pizzerias here dont do that. Clearly from the video above, Bleecker doesnt. What was really eye opening for me was the first time I bought sauce from one of my local pizzerias. I was shocked by how many different seasonings they had in it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on November 30, 2018, 08:12:56 PM
I use 7/11 too. But love my sauce well seasoned with oregano and basil. To each his own, but just want to remind again that the out-of-the-can-plus-salt method isnt the only one. And that many pizzerias here dont do that. Clearly from the video above, Bleecker doesnt. What was really eye opening for me was the first time I bought sauce from one of my local pizzerias. I was shocked by how many different seasonings they had in it.

I dunno that whole Bleeker St thing seems like a lot of hype to me. Lucali, Frank Pepeís are legit imho. I need to see what Totonnoís is all about.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 30, 2018, 08:16:49 PM
I dunno that whole Bleeker St thing seems like a lot of hype to me. Lucali, Frank Pepeís are legit imho. I need to see what Torinoís is all about.

There are many different sub-styles within NY style. I dont view any as more legit or better than the others. But I personally have a passion for the street slice. Lucali may well be great, I haven't been there, but no place has more hype than they do.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on November 30, 2018, 08:29:00 PM
There are many different sub-styles within NY style. I dont view any as more legit or better than the others. But I personally have a passion for the street slice. Lucali may well be great, I haven't been there, but no place has more hype than they do.


This is a legit street slice.

https://www.2brospizza.com
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 30, 2018, 08:33:29 PM
 ;D

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on December 01, 2018, 02:33:43 AM
Bleecker Street. Screenshot of the sauce and a video. The sauce actually looks like a thicker version of mine. I also really like the melt on the cheese slice.

https://youtu.be/_rrU0t39z_A

All of those slices look awesome.

Great sauce pic!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on December 01, 2018, 02:46:56 AM
After reading threads and threads about NYC pizza sauce I focused on the best tomatoe I could find and thats 7/11. I donít heat it. It  goes right on the pie room temp. So good. If thatís one thing I learned from this forum that would be it.

What I got from so many posts here is ď...save the spices for your spaghetti sauce..Ē.

I make a good thick spicy sauce for my Detroit pizza. NYC ..straight 7/11.



I feel like if fresh tomato flavor is really the goal, a deck oven bake can never compare to Neapolitan. That 60-90 second bake tastes much fresher to me.




Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 01, 2018, 08:06:22 AM
.....I need to see what Totonnoís is all about.

This place

https://www.totonnosconeyisland.com
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 03, 2018, 09:42:21 PM
I use 7/11 too. But love my sauce well seasoned with oregano and basil. To each his own, but just want to remind again that the out-of-the-can-plus-salt method isnt the only one. And that many pizzerias here dont do that. Clearly from the video above, Bleecker doesnt. What was really eye opening for me was the first time I bought sauce from one of my local pizzerias. I was shocked by how many different seasonings they had in it.

MOST places dont do that.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 03, 2018, 09:44:43 PM
I dunno that whole Bleeker St thing seems like a lot of hype to me. Lucali, Frank Pepeís are legit imho. I need to see what Totonnoís is all about.

If youre referring to John's, its literally one of America's oldest pizzerias. Hype should never be a word used for it.

Frank Pepe's is in Connecticut lol
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 03, 2018, 09:45:17 PM
You mean most dont do simple tomato and salt?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 03, 2018, 09:51:09 PM
You mean most dont do simple tomato and salt?

Yep. Most add oregano, black pepper, etc
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 03, 2018, 09:52:08 PM
If youre referring to John's, its literally one of America's oldest pizzerias. Hype should never be a word used for it.

Frank Pepe's is in Connecticut lol

Old doesnít mean good.

Deninoís 1937 - Didnt like it
L&B Sapmoni Gardens 1939 - Not so good

Both hypíd as great.

Thanks for the geography lesson.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 03, 2018, 09:56:19 PM
Yep. Most add oregano, black pepper, etc

For sure
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on December 03, 2018, 10:15:00 PM
Yep. Most add oregano, black pepper, etc
I always thought Oregano was essential to sauce, I know many NY pizzerias use very complex well seasoned sauces. The minimalist sauces never grew on me.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on December 03, 2018, 10:57:59 PM
I always thought Oregano was essential to sauce, I know many NY pizzerias use very complex well seasoned sauces. The minimalist sauces never grew on me.

For me personally, I like the simple, fresh flavor...tomatoes, sea salt and a splash of good olive oil. That's it.

Oregano and hard cheese goes on post-bake.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rtt121 on December 04, 2018, 09:10:32 AM
Has anyone else tried this in their sauce? (photo attached). My wife brought it home last year I added a tsp to a 28oz can and had to throw it away (it is Potent! ). Now I have been using 1 drop per 28oz can and I have been enjoying the results.

Seems to have brought consistency to my oregano flavor within the sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on December 04, 2018, 09:33:15 AM
I'm usually not a fan of most concentrated extracted stuff. Some are okay but I find most have offputting tastes, chemical kind of thingy
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pete-zza on December 04, 2018, 09:56:28 AM
Has anyone else tried this in their sauce? (photo attached). My wife brought it home last year I added a tsp to a 28oz can and had to throw it away (it is Potent! ). Now I have been using 1 drop per 28oz can and I have been enjoying the results.

Seems to have brought consistency to my oregano flavor within the sauce.

rtt121,

It is interesting that you were able to use the oregano oil for your sauce since oregano oil is usually treated as a nutritional supplement. See, for example:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-oregano-oil-benefits-and-uses#section11

Oregano oil can also be quite expensive but it should last a long time if used only by the drop.

Peter
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 04, 2018, 09:57:42 AM
Old doesnít mean good.

Deninoís 1937 - Didnt like it
L&B Sapmoni Gardens 1939 - Not so good

Both hypíd as great.

Thanks for the geography lesson.

Sure it does lol. How else would they be open almost 100 years on "hype"

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: rtt121 on December 04, 2018, 10:03:04 AM
rtt121,

It is interesting that you were able to use the oregano oil for your sauce since oregano oil is usually treated as a nutritional supplement. See, for example:

https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/9-oregano-oil-benefits-and-uses#section11

Oregano oil can also be quite expensive but it should last a long time if used only by the drop.

Peter
I always wondered why it said dietary supplement. I never did any research.

It doesn't have a chemical flavor to me, just intense oregano.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Dangerous Salumi on December 04, 2018, 10:17:31 AM
Sure it does lol. How else would they be open almost 100 years on "hype"

There is obvious miscommunication occurring here. Our definitions of hype don't appear to be the same



Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jackitup on December 04, 2018, 10:19:41 AM
I always wondered why it said dietary supplement. I never did any research.

It doesn't have a chemical flavor to me, just intense oregano.

If I run across some I'll check it out. A nurse friend I used to work with was always shaking frankincense oil on her tongue, she smelled like a catholic church service all the time :-D I tried it once and burped it the rest of my shift, loved the smell of it though! :P
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on December 06, 2018, 11:44:27 PM
Sure it does lol. How else would they be open almost 100 years on "hype"

Tradition and nostalgia factor in.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 07, 2018, 12:37:19 PM
Tradition and nostalgia factor in.

How did they get those?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on December 07, 2018, 02:47:22 PM
How did they get those?

I'm not referring to Denino's or L&B, I've been to neither.  When a place becomes an institution, quality can slide and they can ride the history.  Longevity doesn't guarantee current quality.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on December 16, 2018, 10:42:16 PM
Bleecker Street. Screenshot of the sauce and a video. The sauce actually looks like a thicker version of mine. I also really like the melt on the cheese slice.

https://youtu.be/_rrU0t39z_A

Apparently they don't use any canned sauce but I'd take that statement with a grain of salt.

Fun starts at 1:40. At 2:13 you get to see a somewhat side view of the crust. Crust has tiny air pockets all the way through the tip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6uRbCUVWNA

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 17, 2018, 09:38:58 AM
Apparently they don't use any canned sauce but I'd take that statement with a grain of salt.
...

Yeah, it seems to be common now to make claims like this. (Lucali and Scarrs have made similar comments.)

My guess is that people feel comfortable stating that their "sauce" doesn't come from a can, even if the tomatoes in their sauce do.

... Crust has tiny air pockets all the way through the tip.


Deja vu? Not sure how this is relevant for a discussion on sauce, but we discussed Bleecker's crumb previously.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52968.msg543473#msg543473

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 17, 2018, 12:42:28 PM
Scarr's uses Di Napoli organic tomatoes...out of a can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 17, 2018, 06:12:29 PM
Scarr's uses Di Napoli organic tomatoes...out of a can.

Here's the video I was thinking of. The audio is somewhat spliced together but:

nothing is canned except for my olive oil

we buy sauce that doesnt come in cans. It's strained tomatoes...passata

Starts 52 seconds into the video

https://youtu.be/wMIwlj7bzXA

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on December 17, 2018, 07:42:50 PM
I spoke to the owner of Di Napoli on the phone last week...so unless they are sending him tomatoes in a bag, he is using it out of a can lol
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on December 17, 2018, 09:11:41 PM
Scarr will occasionally change ingredients. At the time, he was using a chopped tomato that wasnít coming from a can. I donít know what he uses right now. Either way, doesnít matter - the sauce is very herb heavy. If you like seasoned sauce, youíll love Scarrís
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 17, 2018, 09:47:26 PM
.... If you like seasoned sauce, youíll love Scarrís

Sounds like a place for me and I should bump it up my to-do list  :)

Screenshot below from the Bon Appetit 23 pizzerias video. A bunch of full basil leaves in the sauce, and a heavy-handed sprinkling of oregano on top of the sauce.

Any idea what type of hard cheese they use? In one video he said 2 types of hard cheese.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hotsawce on December 17, 2018, 11:42:55 PM
I'm pretty sure its a mix of parm and pecorino, but don't quote me. That being said, I prefer a slice from Joe's but lot's of people love Scarr's because of the seasoning. Also, he's incorporating fresh milled flour.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on December 20, 2018, 05:34:47 PM
Ive been loving 7/11 lately and have been trying to find the perfect blend with it. I want to try Bonta and 7/11/ 7/11 have such nice bright flavor and color. but I have never used Bonta. Do you think suprema uses 50/50 Bonta and saporito, one can each? since the Bonta is a puree do you think they add water to it too or does the blended saporito give it the viscosity it has? my favorite pizza place out of NYC, which is just north in Putnam county uses a mix of saporito and 7/11 which  is going to be my next experiment. them and pizza suprema easily have the 2 most tasty sauces ive ever tried. I am doing my best to kinda of replicate them but its tough because I get the 7 pound cans and when you mix the 2 you have 14 pounds of sauce you need to use up before experimenting again haha. so I figured why not come here to get some more advice on the ratios. thanks in advance
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on December 20, 2018, 06:28:44 PM
...Do you think suprema uses 50/50 Bonta and saporito, one can each?


I don't know, but I'm interested to see what people think as I'm a fan of Suprema too.

2 things I'll say:
If you want to replicate Suprema's flavor make sure to use a heavy amount of romano

I open #10 cans, portion and freeze them individually. So I have 7/11 and bonta frozen separately in small batches. This enables me to alter the mix from one bake to the next. (Though currently I'm just using strained 7/11.)

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jvp123 on December 20, 2018, 06:30:01 PM
Ive been loving 7/11 lately and have been trying to find the perfect blend with it. I want to try Bonta and 7/11/ 7/11 have such nice bright flavor and color. but I have never used Bonta. Do you think suprema uses 50/50 Bonta and saporito, one can each? since the Bonta is a puree do you think they add water to it too or does the blended saporito give it the viscosity it has? my favorite pizza place out of NYC, which is just north in Putnam county uses a mix of saporito and 7/11 which  is going to be my next experiment. them and pizza suprema easily have the 2 most tasty sauces ive ever tried. I am doing my best to kinda of replicate them but its tough because I get the 7 pound cans and when you mix the 2 you have 14 pounds of sauce you need to use up before experimenting again haha. so I figured why not come here to get some more advice on the ratios. thanks in advance

Yeah that's the problem with the big cans ... Sure I'd love to mess around with blends of different #10 cans of tomatoes, but it gets a little silly with the amount of sauce produced - even with being able to use it for other things.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on December 21, 2018, 12:39:13 AM
Yeah that's the problem with the big cans ... Sure I'd love to mess around with blends of different #10 cans of tomatoes, but it gets a little silly with the amount of sauce produced - even with being able to use it for other things.

All of those freeze very well, with minimal loss of flavor.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on December 21, 2018, 01:03:51 AM
I got a peek in Suprema's store room and saw nothing but cases of Saporito.  Someone posted a picture of a delivery truck unloading a few years back and iirc it was Bonta and Saporito.  Was that Suprema?


Answered my own question.  I'll never change.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jvp123 on December 21, 2018, 01:06:16 AM
All of those freeze very well, with minimal loss of flavor.

Yup thatís what I do.  But I make one #10 can at a time. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Essen1 on December 21, 2018, 02:03:33 AM
Yup thatís what I do.  But I make one #10 can at a time.

Why?

You can mix them to your liking and then just pull them out.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jvp123 on December 21, 2018, 03:03:47 AM
Why?

You can mix them to your liking and then just pull them out.

Not sure if we are talking about the same thing.  I just donít like having a lot of sauce in containers in my freezer, for a few reasons - one of which being space.  For me, to mix letís say a can of 7/11s with a can of Alta Cucinas would yield more sauce than Iíd care to keep on hand.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on December 21, 2018, 07:58:11 AM
This is pretty well our limit and record here without adding another large stock pot. Not shown are 2 cans of diced pear tomatoes off to the right by our sink. I miss not making this big batch this year.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Makisupapoliceman on December 21, 2018, 03:08:04 PM
I don't know, but I'm interested to see what people think as I'm a fan of Suprema too.

2 things I'll say:
If you want to replicate Suprema's flavor make sure to use a heavy amount of romano

I open #10 cans, portion and freeze them individually. So I have 7/11 and bonta frozen separately in small batches. This enables me to alter the mix from one bake to the next. (Though currently I'm just using strained 7/11.)

It is easily my favorite slice in the city, maybe all time
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on January 14, 2019, 07:36:00 AM
Will hitting whole peeled tomatoes with a stick blender break up the seeds, or leave them whole so I can strain them out after?

Separate question, anyone simply add a tablespoon (or more/less) of paste to blended whole peeled?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on February 10, 2019, 09:52:56 PM
Anyone ever use white pepper? I don't recall even seeing white pepper before and have no idea what it tastes like.

I got the idea from the sauce recipe below that's on the Escalon website.

(It's also interesting to see them recommend the sauce sit for 12 hours.)


 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jsaras on February 10, 2019, 10:23:28 PM
Anyone ever use white pepper? I don't recall even seeing white pepper before and have no idea what it tastes like.

I got the idea from the sauce recipe below that's on the Escalon website.

(It's also interesting to see them recommend the sauce sit for 12 hours.)

White pepper tastes similar to black pepper, but a bit mellower.  Iíve only used it when black pepper would create an unpleasant visual.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on February 11, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Anyone ever use white pepper? I don't recall even seeing white pepper before and have no idea what it tastes like.

I got the idea from the sauce recipe below that's on the Escalon website.

(It's also interesting to see them recommend the sauce sit for 12 hours.)

Thats a really odd recipe
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on February 11, 2019, 09:52:11 PM
Thats a really odd recipe

What part? I don't know what the weights of ingredients should be for 3 #10 cans, but in relation to one another seems reasonable - salt then sugar then garlic then pepper. Don't know what a half oz of oregano looks like though.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Josh123 on February 12, 2019, 03:02:39 PM
What part? I don't know what the weights of ingredients should be for 3 #10 cans, but in relation to one another seems reasonable - salt then sugar then garlic then pepper. Don't know what a half oz of oregano looks like though.

Its 6 #10 cans. Thats way too little spice imo.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 04, 2019, 09:57:57 AM
When I use canned whole peeled tomato, I use the tomato only, discarding the liquid that packs the can.

Does anyone think that pizzerias do this? I'm guessing that they wouldn't want to waste some of the product.

I'm going to open a can of Alta Cucina this weekend. I'm planning to stick blend the whole can, in the liquid. And freeze what I don't use (which will be most of the can). This will be my first time really using the liquid. And it's only my second time ever using Alta Cucina.

What do you think?

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on July 04, 2019, 10:53:43 AM
Its 6 #10 cans. Thats way too little spice imo.
Plus 3 #10 cans of water. Like Emeril says, ďI donít know where you get your water but where I get mine it donít come seasoned.Ē

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on July 04, 2019, 11:15:59 AM
When I use canned whole peeled tomato, I use the tomato only, discarding the liquid that packs the can.

Does anyone think that pizzerias do this? I'm guessing that they wouldn't want to waste some of the product.

I'm going to open a can of Alta Cucina this weekend. I'm planning to stick blend the whole can, in the liquid. And freeze what I don't use (which will be most of the can). This will be my first time really using the liquid. And it's only my second time ever using Alta Cucina.

What do you think?
No NY expertise here. I agree that most pizzerias (most restaurants, for that matter) would not want to waste some of the product. I think they would be inclined to purchase whichever product most closely matches their needs. Wasted product is wasted money. I have a friend who owns a restaurant. I kid him that I will never see a banana in his place because he could not bear to throw away the peel. :)


In your Alta Cucina (which I have never had an opportunity to try) example, most likely I would have a small can of paste on hand to thicken or lend structure to the blended entire can of Alta Cucina tomatoes. That would probably be my second choice behind cooking it down to the desired consistency, which I understand is not common with NY sauces and, for many, any pizza sauce.  Third choice I would pour off and save some of the liquid, then add it back post-blend as I thought it needed, but this could still result in some discarded liquid. I have no idea on your seed questions. I stopped worrying about them years ago as I simply do not find any that survive to be objectionable.


When I find that I want to add liquid to a tomato sauce at home, I almost always use tomato juice rather than water. I might feel differently in a commercial pizzeria setting.


Good luck. Iím looking forward to hearing what you do and how you feel it worked.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Glutenboy on July 04, 2019, 04:33:01 PM
When I use canned whole peeled tomato, I use the tomato only, discarding the liquid that packs the can.

Does anyone think that pizzerias do this? I'm guessing that they wouldn't want to waste some of the product.

I'm going to open a can of Alta Cucina this weekend. I'm planning to stick blend the whole can, in the liquid. And freeze what I don't use (which will be most of the can). This will be my first time really using the liquid. And it's only my second time ever using Alta Cucina.

What do you think?

If I'm using whole tomatoes, I usually reserve the liquid, crush or blend the tomatoes - whichever I want at the time - then add back whatever is necessary for the consistency I'm after.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on July 10, 2019, 09:02:09 AM
If I'm using whole tomatoes, I usually reserve the liquid, crush or blend the tomatoes - whichever I want at the time - then add back whatever is necessary for the consistency I'm after.

That's how I usually do it as well, except I'll go through a little bit of the pain staking effort of removing the whole tomato's from the can, slicing them in half vertically and removing the seeds. It doesn't get all of them but it does the job. After that process I'll process the whole tomato's to the consistency I'm looking for and then add back whatever's left in the can. I've never added water to my sauce, and I don't really care to either.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 10, 2019, 06:15:48 PM
That's how I usually do it as well, except I'll go through a little bit of the pain staking effort of removing the whole tomato's from the can, slicing them in half vertically and removing the seeds. It doesn't get all of them but it does the job.

I used to do something similar. I'd break the tomato in a half over the sink to let the seeds out.

Now I stick blend them whole, then push it through a strainer to remove the seeds.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Steve on July 10, 2019, 06:21:45 PM
I used to do something similar. I'd break the tomato in a half over the sink to let the seeds out.

Now I stick blend them whole, then push it through a strainer to remove the seeds.

I read somewhere that you should not blend whole (seeded) tomatoes because you run the risk of the blades cutting the seeds in half which releases a bitter flavor. Best to use a tomato strainer (food mill) instead.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 10, 2019, 06:44:46 PM
I read somewhere that you should not blend whole (seeded) tomatoes because you run the risk of the blades cutting the seeds in half which releases a bitter flavor. Best to use a tomato strainer (food mill) instead.

Thanks Steve. I almost bought a food mill last weekend (was at a William's Sonoma outlet store), but I needed a compelling reason not to stick blend.

I will say that I have plenty of seeds after blending,  though certainly haven't done a before and after count  :-D

Anyone ever notice this bitter taste from blended seeds? Sounds like I may need to experiment.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 10, 2019, 10:10:10 PM
Thanks Steve. I almost bought a food mill last weekend (was at a William's Sonoma outlet store), but I needed a compelling reason not to stick blend.

I will say that I have plenty of seeds after blending,  though certainly haven't done a before and after count  :-D

Anyone ever notice this bitter taste from blended seeds? Sounds like I may need to experiment.
Seeds will change the taste of the sauce no matter what kind of sauce are making.  And I am not talking only about Pizza Sauce.
strain a few seeds and eat them .  Then think after a 2 hour simmer where that flavor is going to end up or 5 minutes at 600 f.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 10, 2019, 10:11:15 PM
I read somewhere that you should not blend whole (seeded) tomatoes because you run the risk of the blades cutting the seeds in half which releases a bitter flavor. Best to use a tomato strainer (food mill) instead.
You don't have to slice them you just have to cook them for the same result.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on July 11, 2019, 12:05:24 AM
I tried a little soy sauce last bake, not sure I could pick it out blind but I liked it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on July 11, 2019, 07:54:53 AM
Thanks Steve. I almost bought a food mill last weekend (was at a William's Sonoma outlet store), but I needed a compelling reason not to stick blend.

I will say that I have plenty of seeds after blending,  though certainly haven't done a before and after count  :-D

Anyone ever notice this bitter taste from blended seeds? Sounds like I may need to experiment.

I've never myself gone through the process of straining to get as many as I could out, but I have also read that seeds can lead to a more bitter flavor. Frankly, removing the seeds by hand by slicing open the tomato's has always gotten it to the point where it'd be very hard to find many if not any at all, and I also do cook my sauce a bit.
But it definitely would be an interesting experiment, milling the tomato's and straining them versus stick blend.

Also curious, where about's on LI do you live? (don't have to share or be super specific  :) )
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on July 11, 2019, 08:34:38 AM
Tony Uva, of Sorrento Pizza tips for removing seeds using a strainer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8hmxHnEdqM 

Also two photos of Tony's slices.

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 12, 2019, 07:20:04 AM
Tony Uva, of Sorrento Pizza tips for removing seeds using a strainer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8hmxHnEdqM 

Also two photos of Tony's slices.

Norma

Great find. I'm really surprised to see a pizzeria break tomato by hand. Note that the pizzeria is in Stamford Connecticut,  and that he was making sauce for a "marhgerita".

On the opposite end of the spectrum,  I just found a pizzeria video where they stick blend directly in the #10 cans.

https://youtu.be/9Ikknmv3DYg

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Steve on July 12, 2019, 08:49:29 AM
On the opposite end of the spectrum,  I just found a pizzeria video where they stick blend directly in the #10 cans.

I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on July 12, 2019, 10:32:05 AM
I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.

So you've noticed a flavor impact from seeds? (Before you said you read that it has an impact.)

I've done everything from removing the seeds one by one to not removing them at all to actually trying to chew them to see the taste. I haven't confirmed that I can tell the difference.

From what I've read on the forum, some people think the seeds make a difference while others dont.

An experiment I'm thinking about is to lightly cook 2 batches of just the liquid that comes in a WP can, but I'll add the seeds from the tomato to one batch (even trying to break some of the seeds first). Then will taste each batch.

I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't buy the food mill last week. And that I blended up a full #10 can before freezing.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 12, 2019, 10:37:28 AM
I don't have a strong opinion either way.  Insignificant in the big picture, IMO.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on July 12, 2019, 11:53:03 AM
I don't have a strong opinion either way.  Insignificant in the big picture, IMO.
The only way to know then is to make sauce with and without and taste.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 12, 2019, 11:58:44 AM
The only way to know then is to make sauce with and without and taste.

I've done it both ways and don't care.  I don't subscribe to the "more work means it's better" dogma.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: norma427 on July 12, 2019, 12:17:26 PM
I guess if including seeds is part of the flavor profile that you want, then no harm. Different strokes for different folks.

So you've noticed a flavor impact from seeds? (Before you said you read that it has an impact.)

I've done everything from removing the seeds one by one to not removing them at all to actually trying to chew them to see the taste. I haven't confirmed that I can tell the difference.

From what I've read on the forum, some people think the seeds make a difference while others dont.

An experiment I'm thinking about is to lightly cook 2 batches of just the liquid that comes in a WP can, but I'll add the seeds from the tomato to one batch (even trying to break some of the seeds first). Then will taste each batch.

I'm a bit annoyed that I didn't buy the food mill last week. And that I blended up a full #10 can before freezing.



Matt,

I tend to agree with Steve.  I tried many kinds of pizza tomato products with added things, some with minimal added things, some with lots of added things, some fresh out of the cans, and even baked sauces.  Although I have my personal preferences, am sure not many members would agree with what I like, after the pizzas are baked, because we all have unique taste buds.  Just strive for what you like.   :)

To give you one example, I had been to Thom's bread and had one of his pizzas baked in his gas fired rotating oven, one made in his commercial deck oven, and one with he used his parbaked crusts, but all of the pizzas were made with the same sauce (tomatoes from Stainlaus.  Not sure how he prepared them) cheeses and dressing and all of the pizzas tasted very different.  The one baked in the gas fired rotating oven tasted the freshest tasting in the sauce department to me, and made a world of difference in the 3 pizzas.  I haven't tried the brand of tomatoes Thom used yet to see if the same thing would happen in my oven at market.

If you haven't seen this from Scott W. it is interesting that they did use a emersion blender to mash
all of the can's contents,  and do the taste tests of different tomato products along with different people.

https://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/78009652485/tomato-tasting-at-razza-jersey-city

Norma
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: jkb on July 12, 2019, 03:38:25 PM
Matt,

I tend to agree with Steve.  I tried many kinds of pizza tomato products with added things, some with minimal added things, some with lots of added things, some fresh out of the cans, and even baked sauces.  Although I have my personal preferences, am sure not many members would agree with what I like, after the pizzas are baked, because we all have unique taste buds.  Just strive for what you like.   :)

To give you one example, I had been to Thom's bread and had one of his pizzas baked in his gas fired rotating oven, one made in his commercial deck oven, and one with he used his parbaked crusts, but all of the pizzas were made with the same sauce (tomatoes from Stainlaus.  Not sure how he prepared them) cheeses and dressing and all of the pizzas tasted very different.  The one baked in the gas fired rotating oven tasted the freshest tasting in the sauce department to me, and made a world of difference in the 3 pizzas.  I haven't tried the brand of tomatoes Thom used yet to see if the same thing would happen in my oven at market.

If you haven't seen this from Scott W. it is interesting that they did use a emersion blender to mash
all of the can's contents,  and do the taste tests of different tomato products along with different people.

https://blog.scottspizzatours.com/post/78009652485/tomato-tasting-at-razza-jersey-city

Norma

Alta Cucina.  He could have saved a lot of time and effort and just asked me.  :-D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: invertedisdead on July 12, 2019, 05:15:41 PM
Removing seeds is one reason I use the food mill, but it also does a good job of catching any skins or unripe bits of tomato.

I'm not sure if the seeds are bitter or not, but I can say most of the stuff stuck to the sides of my mill at the end of processing a can is not very tasty.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on July 12, 2019, 06:04:16 PM
I prepare mine like Antica Pizzeria da Michele:

https://www.youtube.com/embed/3pxmIFz5914?start=380
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on August 14, 2019, 07:37:19 PM
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think.

For what it's worth, I've never been in a shop that are thinning tomatoes. Some add sugar, but that's about it.  My experience anyway.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on August 14, 2019, 07:42:58 PM
Before coming to this thread JD asked about where I source Sicilian oregano and whether I thought it was an authentic NY slice flavor.

I buy it at Sansone foods on Long Island (Garden City), which I highly recommend going to for anyone in the area. When I first tasted the oregano it instantly brought a familiar flavor that I hadn't tasted in my pizza before. NY pizzerias of course vary, with some being more oregano heavy than others, but since I started using it, I definitely noticed a similar flavor on some of the local pizzerias I've sampled. That said, I can't imagine that the pizzerias are buying dried stalks of oregano. But given many of their other ingredients are superior to what's available in the supermarket, it's a safe assumption that places that choose to have oregano be a noticeable part of their flavor, are using something good. Here's a link with a picture of what I'm using.

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=47325.0

I know a pretty famous pizzeria that buys oregano from Cremosa in Melville, L.I. They only sell one type, with the Cremosa label.  Old school place.  I bought mozzarella curd from them in the early 90s.

I've only worked at one place that put oregano (as well as a bunch of other dried herbs and spices in their pizza sauce, and that was Two Boots. But that pie isn't classic NY, they have that Cajun thing going.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Minolta Rokkor on August 14, 2019, 07:56:36 PM
I'm curious how many shops are thinning their tomatoes with a lot more oil than we think. It definitely gets you that sacred orange grease. I might try next bake using like 4T oil per 28 oz can and see how it comes out.
They're not thinning it, it's just run through a tomato strainer or food mill. When I ran undrained Alta Cucina through a my tomato strainer they got thin. Like Lucali's thin.

I LOVE my tomato strainer, the hopper can fit a whole #10 can worth of tomatos.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on September 22, 2020, 10:44:39 AM
Bringing this thread back from the dead as I've had some time to experiment a little and some notes I've made with uncooked vs. cooked sauces. Usually I make a cooked sauce that's reduced a bit.

My last batch of pizzas I ran with an uncooked sauce and some things I've noticed:
Uncooked obviously is the normal for most pizza places in NY, and this sauce definitely handled and looked more like you would see at the local shops. It has a bit more of a tart 'bite' that is common among a lot of pizza places than the usual cooked sauce and it isn't 'watery' but it's much more thin and typical 'looking' as you'd see at a normal slice joint. Also, the oil doesn't fold into the sauce as well, I'd almost next time consider going with less as I don't know how much it really added to the sauce.

The biggest difference I noticed is when the sauce was put on top of the cheese for one of the pies I baked. Without the cheese melting into the sauce from the top down (normal pies) it didn't mellow out any of the flavors of the sauce, so any bitterness from the tomatoes (which also could be from the relatively unimpressive quality of the tomatoes I was using) really carried over.
Without a doubt the flavor profile of the uncooked is much more intense, every ingredient you used really stands out, especially the flavor profile of the tomatoes and the other big one was garlic. I used a clove an a half for two whole cans of tomatoes and it was very noticeable, to the point where it was approaching not being that of a regular New York slice. I didn't realize how much the cooking of the garlic in fat really mellows the flavor of it out.

That being said, it lacks a bit of that richness and depth of flavor you get from a cooked sauced, and while maybe not as 'bright' as an uncooked sauce, it definitely has a bit more presence on the slice in terms of the flavor it's delivering.
Next try I'd really like to go back to back with an uncooked vs. cooked sauce.

Final Opinion:
If you're shooting for a 'traditional' New York pie, an uncooked sauce is the way to go. You can get away with lower quality tomatoes if you can't find the good ones (most slice joints aren't using high end imported SM tomatoes anyway), it's bright and brings intense flavor, sometimes too much so as I encountered so less is more in terms of garlic, and when the cheese melts into the sauce it makes up for some of the richness it's lacking.

If you want to make the best pizza you can and aren't worried about necessarily adhering to strict 'NY' style pizzas, cook the sauce. It has a better flavor profile, is more rich and gives it a more 'high-end' feel if you will. Yes it will be a bit more mellow yet more well rounded, but the slice as a whole is better overall.
Especially run with a cooked sauce if you're going for a Margherita pie, when the sauce has more of a presence than the cheese and really needs to stand out. You can't hide less than ideal quality tomatoes on a pie like this, but you can however jive up some poor quality tomatoes to get rid of any unwanted flavors.

Recipes and process are below, both are ran thru a foodmill to remove the seeds and any leftover skins/unwanted bits, and the amount of dried spices used is about the same...a lot that is.


Uncooked Sauce:
2 cans of whole peeled tomatoes ran thru a food mill.
EVOO about 2 table spoons or so, more can't hurt but too much and the sauce will just separate out and never really blend.
A hefty amount of dried 'Italian spices', to the point where if you pick up a spoonful of sauce from the pot there's a few spots of spices in it.
Red pepper flakes (a shake or two, definitely go easy)
Salt+Pepper
A clove and a half of garlic (I'd go less, more like one large clove or even a smaller medium clove)

Cooked Sauce:
2 cans of whole peeled tomatoes ran thru a food mill.
1 tablespoon of EVOO and 1 Tablespoon or so of butter, about equal parts (this is the biggest difference I think in terms of the mouthfeel is the butter)
Heat up butter/oil until butter is melted and it's hot enough to sautee.
Crush a clove or so of garlic and Sautee, add your dried spices (this really gets the flavor released into the oil) Don't burn your garlic, just soften
Salt+Pepper


Add the tomatoes, fold all the oil and spices in and reduce. This is where you're going to have to use your judgement, as you don't want to reduce it to paste or a thickness where the sauce has to be 'pushed' around on the pizza. Just enough to meld it all together, add Sugar if you're feeling bold or want a sweet sauce.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on September 22, 2020, 03:08:06 PM
thanks for posting the results of your experiments! as you allude to, the quality of the tomatoes makes a big difference. IMO, 7-11 is the Konami code if one is looking to create a NY slice but scalfani crushed are also great.  Personally, I'm not a fan of cooked for NY or "elite ny" style but it definitely has its place in other styles.

Here's a discussion on cooked vs uncooked sauce that includes member November's MAE-based recipe:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3735.msg32136.html#msg32136

whenever I read these old posts, I come away wishing I was part of that cohort of members. There was just so much passion, discovery and experimentation back then. Most of our formulations and techniques are derived from their hard work.

best,
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on September 22, 2020, 10:44:39 PM

Final Opinion:


I've said that enough that I've learned my lesson...I'll always tinker.

Nice post. Seems like you like both. You may want to try adding some uncooked tomato to your cooked sauce just before baking in an attempt to get the best of both worlds.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: RHawthorne on September 23, 2020, 01:40:23 AM
Wow, how have I never seen this thread before in all the time I've been on this site? Anyway, a little while back, I had an idea for pizza sauce. I really like vodka sauce, and there are some well known NYC pizzerias that offer a vodka sauce pizza- not that I've been there. I thought to myself, how about making a vodka tomato sauce, but without the cream or cheese? The idea with the vodka is that it's supposed to unlock certain volatile components in the tomatoes and intensify their flavor, so if you left out the dairy components, wouldn't that make the tomato flavor that much more intense? I tried the idea out, but I did it with canned tomatoes, and I couldn't really discern any especially deep tomato flavor, so if I did it again, I'd do it with oven roasted fresh tomatoes. Anyway, I thought I'd drop that idea off here if anybody else wanted to pick it up and run with it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: woodfiredandrew on September 23, 2020, 10:32:16 AM
Great discussion....I really like "Valoroso" whole peeled pear tomatoes, I have found them to be the best, we used to get san marzano from italy but these are the best so far, i lightly crush them and then add little bit of olive oil, fresh mince garlic, pinch of salt and oregano. if i am to pinch raw sausage on pizza then no oil in the sauce. it works great for me.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on September 29, 2020, 10:51:44 AM
I managed to find a video and screenshot a sauce from a local Long Island favorite.
Probably what I'm going to try and shoot for with the next pie but it looks pretty typical:
Heavy on the herbs and a very hefty helping of Pecorino in there too.

I'm going to go with this is an uncooked sauce, but I also noticed it's not thin as I had thought it was so it's hard to determine how they get to that final product, maybe a heap of paste to thicken?
I know they also mix in a decent amount of oil directly on the pie with the sauce then cheese it. I've done the pecorino before, and it definitely adds a nice tang to it, and now that I'm thinking, I don't think it could it be a cooked sauce with the pecorino in it. I get the feeling it'd melt and you'd have no clue it was in there.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: RHawthorne on September 30, 2020, 01:19:33 AM
I managed to find a video and screenshot a sauce from a local Long Island favorite.
Probably what I'm going to try and shoot for with the next pie but it looks pretty typical:
Heavy on the herbs and a very hefty helping of Pecorino in there too.

I'm going to go with this is an uncooked sauce, but I also noticed it's not thin as I had thought it was so it's hard to determine how they get to that final product, maybe a heap of paste to thicken?
I know they also mix in a decent amount of oil directly on the pie with the sauce then cheese it. I've done the pecorino before, and it definitely adds a nice tang to it, and now that I'm thinking, I don't think it could it be a cooked sauce with the pecorino in it. I get the feeling it'd melt and you'd have no clue it was in there.
It's hard to say from that photo if the sauce is all that thick, or if there's just a good amount of it on the pie, and it's dark from a hefty dose of herbs, as you suggested. It might not actually be all that thick, but they might be using some paste. Or it could just be one of the thicker varieties of crushed tomato product, thinned down a bit.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: RHawthorne on September 30, 2020, 01:22:55 AM
Great discussion....I really like "Valoroso" whole peeled pear tomatoes, I have found them to be the best, we used to get san marzano from italy but these are the best so far, i lightly crush them and then add little bit of olive oil, fresh mince garlic, pinch of salt and oregano. if i am to pinch raw sausage on pizza then no oil in the sauce. it works great for me.
I'm curious about the Valoroso label. It appears to be made by Stanislaus, but for whatever reason, it's not available from my local foodservice outlet store, GFS, even though they carry the rest of the lineup. I've heard good things about Valoroso, like it's similar to Alta Cucina, but not as tangy, or something like that. Sounds like something I need to try.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 02, 2020, 11:11:35 AM
It's hard to say from that photo if the sauce is all that thick, or if there's just a good amount of it on the pie, and it's dark from a hefty dose of herbs, as you suggested. It might not actually be all that thick, but they might be using some paste. Or it could just be one of the thicker varieties of crushed tomato product, thinned down a bit.

I'm actually swinging by that place tonight, I'll see if I can get a good look hahah
I get the feeling its not cooked, but I have seen them rolling in the commercial sized cans of tomatos....whether or not it was whole peeled or a 'sauce' is another question.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 02, 2020, 12:44:34 PM
I'm actually swinging by that place tonight, I'll see if I can get a good look hahah
I get the feeling its not cooked, but I have seen them rolling in the commercial sized cans of tomatos....whether or not it was whole peeled or a 'sauce' is another question.

I've had luck at some places buying dough and sauce (and cheese). You may be able to take some sauce home.

Doesn't look like whole peeled. Could be a watered down heavy puree, or maybe Tomato Magic?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on October 02, 2020, 12:56:34 PM
I've had luck at some places buying dough and sauce (and cheese). You may be able to take some sauce home.

Doesn't look like whole peeled. Could be a watered down heavy puree, or maybe Tomato Magic?

Yeah it definitely doesn't have a puree'd look to it at all, you're probably right.
Hammett you're from LI so you probably know the spot, this is from Little Vincents haha (I tried to respond to your PM but your inbox is full  ;D)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: stevenfstein on October 02, 2020, 07:29:59 PM
I'm curious about the Valoroso label. It appears to be made by Stanislaus, but for whatever reason, it's not available from my local foodservice outlet store, GFS, even though they carry the rest of the lineup. I've heard good things about Valoroso, like it's similar to Alta Cucina, but not as tangy, or something like that. Sounds like something I need to try.

Looks to be available at Ace Endico in NY but in #10 cans and looks like by the case although sometimes they break up the pack.
Best... Steve
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on October 03, 2020, 11:23:57 AM

Hammett you're from LI so you probably know the spot, this is from Little Vincents haha (I tried to respond to your PM but your inbox is full  ;D)

I know of L Vincent's,  but haven't been there. Hope you crack the code!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: pvura on November 02, 2020, 01:07:05 PM
I'm not sure where to post this, but I'll go with here.

I just had a very eye-opening experience at NY Pizza Suprema. I don't think I've had a slice quite like this before. And it was very good.

I could almost (almost, but I'd be wrong) say that you could remove the mozzarella without it impacting the slice. The flavor was so overwhelmingly dominated by the sauce/tomato and the hard cheese. The taste was sweet and rich.

Oregano was visible, having risen to the top of the slice, but it took the backseat to the other flavors.

The sauce had small chunks of tomato in it...and a big chunk that happily fell onto my plate. It was a chunk of plum tomato and skin. It tasted like a really good tomato.

I wish I could could give more details about it. I'm wondering if they only use romano or if there's parm in it too.

Hey, that pie looks fantastic. Would you mind sharing that dough recipe please? Would appreciate it. Thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: woodfiredandrew on November 02, 2020, 04:26:42 PM
I'm curious about the Valoroso label. It appears to be made by Stanislaus, but for whatever reason, it's not available from my local foodservice outlet store, GFS, even though they carry the rest of the lineup. I've heard good things about Valoroso, like it's similar to Alta Cucina, but not as tangy, or something like that. Sounds like something I need to try.

I have tried Alta Cucina, i prefer Voloroso over everything because i don't cook my sauce at all, i barely crush them and then add mince garlic, pinch of salt and oregano.   
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 02, 2020, 05:16:42 PM
Hey, that pie looks fantastic. Would you mind sharing that dough recipe please? Would appreciate it. Thanks!

Hey, it wasn't my pie unfortunately,  came from the pizzeria NY Pizza Suprema
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: pvura on November 02, 2020, 05:40:40 PM
For the first time in all my pizza-making, I cooked my sauce. And results were very promising.

Consistency look - It looked like the NY pizzeria sauce I've purchased previously. It was very thin, but without the watery look of a freshly opened can. And the shine from the oil looked just right. Somehow different from my usual.

Consistency bake - worked really well, with a nice resulting melt

Flavor meld - super interesting, I can see this resulting in the "I cant taste any individual ingredients, but there's a lot going on" kind of sauce. Only problem was even though I used half the onion called for, it was too strong.

My Question: I like the oregano to stand out, so assuming the flavors blend together when simmering (still have to try it without the onion), what's the best way to adjust? 2 alternatives I'm considering:
Option 1 - Put the oregano in later in the process, directly into the tomato instead of the oil at the start.
Option 2 - Save half the oregano and add it just before I top the pizza

My sauce is described below. It was based on Kenji's recipe with a few adjustments.

1 Tbs EVOO and 1 Tbs butter melted in a pot. Added and cooked the following for about 3 minutes on medium low:
1 tsp oregano, 1/2 tsp dry basil, 1/16 tsp red pepper flakes, a few grated cloves of garlic, 1/4 tsp salt.

Added 28oz can of Cento San Marzano that was pulsed in blender (but accidently pulsed too much, so no chunks).
1/2 tsp sugar
half a yellow onion
Simmered for 50 minutes then removed the onion.

After removing I added 1 Tbs Romano, which I forgot to do with the simmer.

Oh i see, thanks for the response!

Do u have a recipe for that dough? That looks killer as well 👀. Thanks!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on November 02, 2020, 06:08:12 PM
I'm not a crust fanatic (more focused on sauce and cheese melt) but here's my current formula:

Dough
100% High Gluten Flour
63% Water
3% Oil or Butter
1% Sugar
2% Salt
1% LDMP
0.25% IDY
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2020, 06:50:12 PM
I have tried Alta Cucina, i prefer Voloroso over everything because i don't cook my sauce at all, i barely crush them and then add mince garlic, pinch of salt and oregano.
That's close to what I do. I use one can tomato product (I've tried quite a few, and I don't know if I've found a favorite yet, but I like 6-in-1 tomatoes quite a bit, and Stanislaus Tomato Magic), and add 1 tsp sea salt, 1 tsp dried oregano, and 1 crushed garlic clove. I don't like my seasonings any more intense than that, and I don't cook my sauce, although I have experimented with that in the past. I tried one can of Atla Cucina tomatoes and I liked them, but they weren't up there with my favorites.  I wish I could get just one can of Valoroso, but GFS doesn't carry that label, like I said. I could order it from webstaurantstore.com, but they only sell it by the whole case, and I could try on amazon, but people jack up prices there so much it's ridiculous. I'll keep my eyes open for some way to get my hands on a can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on November 02, 2020, 08:01:37 PM
It is a fact that every pizzeria that cranks out some volume is keeping their sauce prep time to an absolute minimum to reduce labor cost.  That means they find what they prefer that is available in #10 cans by the case and create their own mix.  Most of us here can't afford to buy cases of various brands within a brand or outside of that brand to blend together and make a house pizza sauce.  One popular Stanislaus recipe is to mix 1 can of Full Red with 2 cans of 7/11 and season appropriately.  I've used Full Red by itself thinned out with water and I've used 711 straight from the can.  I prefer the 7/11 all day long and have never tried to mix them because that would mean opening 3 #10 cans at once and dealing with all that sauce.  As far as Stanislaus Saporito is concerned, don't even go there as that is the thickest stuff on earth that is sold for maximum yield and is indeed "SUPER HEAVY".  It may as well be tomato paste that you just keep adding more and more water to until you get to the consistency that works for you and then you sell those pies at fairs and such on the midway where you are a vendor with a pizza trailer and there is no such thing as a repeat customer.  Saporito was made for those who want to produce low quality pies dirt cheap in my opinion. It doesn't make a good pizza sauce on its own thinned out but perhaps it could be added as a thickener in moderate amount to such whole tomato and higher water content products like Alta Cucina.  This begs the question do you go with Alta Cucina or similar and thicken it with heavier blends like Full Red or (God forbid) Saporito or do ya just go with what works all the time?  I hang my hat on 7/11 by itself all day for the home baker who has access to it.  If I were to guess 7/11 has got to be Stanislaus' all time best and top selling product... You see it used everywhere in the pizza industry to full service sit down Italian dining. 
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: stevenfstein on November 02, 2020, 08:29:31 PM
anyone try Stanislaus Pizzaiolo sauce?    From their web site. "Pizzaioloģ is an authentic, fully-seasoned chunky pizza sauce, inspired by the artistry of neighborhood pizzaioli (pizza-makers) throughout Italy. A traditional blend of chunky vine-fresh tomatoes, extra virgin olive oil, oregano, garlic, and pepper, Pizzaioloģ has a ready-to-use thickness and authentic character enjoyed in real Italian pizzerias."

Best... Steve
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: RHawthorne on November 02, 2020, 11:02:02 PM
anyone try Stanislaus Pizzaiolo sauce?    From their web site. "Pizzaioloģ is an authentic, fully-seasoned chunky pizza sauce, inspired by the artistry of neighborhood pizzaioli (pizza-makers) throughout Italy. A traditional blend of chunky vine-fresh tomatoes, extra virgin olive oil, oregano, garlic, and pepper, Pizzaioloģ has a ready-to-use thickness and authentic character enjoyed in real Italian pizzerias."

Best... Steve
I almost bought a can of that stuff and then opted for something else instead. I guess I'm just hesitant to try anything that's pre-seasoned, in case I don't like the seasoning blend. Especially with garlic and potentially strong herbs like oregano, if there's too much in the mix, it's pretty much impossible to smooth it out without doing something like adding water, which dilutes the whole flavor profile, or mixing it with a can of some other sauce, which gives way too much sauce for any home pizzaiolo to use up in a reasonable time frame. But I still might try it some time.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: scott r on November 03, 2020, 08:22:00 AM
I was really surprised to find that its quite tasty.  I am pretty much scratch everything so normally I wouldn't cut corners and buy pre seasoned, but this stuff was great!  At home and at my restaurant I still add my own seasoning, but if you don't have time or want to deal with it don't fear the pizzaiolo!   Al dente pasta sauce is amazing too.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: quietdesperation on November 03, 2020, 12:22:55 PM
the thing that takes me the longest and I like the least is pushing scalfani crushed through a mesh strainer with a wooden spoon to remove skin and seeds. Anyone have a solution to avoid this or a short cut? Perhaps purchasing another brand of tomatoes might help...
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: pvura on November 03, 2020, 12:42:36 PM
Idk if this helps anyone out but di fara uses a combo of canned and fresh tomatoes. The brand they use is vantia italian canned tomatoes.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on November 03, 2020, 02:29:31 PM
the thing that takes me the longest and I like the least is pushing scalfani crushed through a mesh strainer with a wooden spoon to remove skin and seeds. Anyone have a solution to avoid this or a short cut? Perhaps purchasing another brand of tomatoes might help...
Could not live without it.     Wearever Strainer
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: piesofsatan on November 03, 2020, 02:41:46 PM
the thing that takes me the longest and I like the least is pushing scalfani crushed through a mesh strainer with a wooden spoon to remove skin and seeds. Anyone have a solution to avoid this or a short cut? Perhaps purchasing another brand of tomatoes might help...

Wouldn't a food mill with the fine plate do the trick?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Pizza Shark on November 03, 2020, 06:25:46 PM
Wouldn't a food mill with the fine plate do the trick?

As many home pizza makers have KA mixers, this attachment is absolutely fantastic.  This package sells both the meat grinder and the fruit and vegetable strainer set but if you already have the meat grinder you can just buy the fruit and vegetable set as an add-on that works with the meat grinder.  When I used to have huge harvests of tomatoes I'd take them all and cut them up and put them into a big cooking pot and bring them just to a boil so they were soft and just starting to fall apart.  Then I'd ladle them into the mill and all the pulp and juice comes out the bottom and all the skins and seeds get separated and pushed out the front.  It's like magic and so easy compared to the hand crank mills out there (one of which I had that was made in Italy but the acid from the tomatoes ended up eating it and rusting components away).   I'd run the discarded skins and seeds through a second time to make sure I got all the pulp and juice out of them and a good amount would come out on the 2nd pass.  Then put all the pulp and juice on the stove, and add your seasonings and then add tomato paste and keep adding it until you get the consistency you want and bring it to a boil for a few minutes.  Then pull it, add fresh basil, and sit the pot in a cold water bath in the kitchen sink filled with cold water.  Once cooled to the point you can handle it ladle it into Ziplock freezer bags, squeeze out the air, seal them and into the freezer they go.       

https://www.amazon.com/KitchenAid-FVSFGA-Vegetable-Strainer-Attachment/dp/B00004SGFJ

Furthermore, having the meat grinder is cool so you can grind your own pork and make Italian Sausage spiced as little or as heavy and hot as you like.  Also, you can stay away from that lousy store bought ground beef and buy great cuts of chuck roast or round on sale that are way cheaper per lb. and grind it yourself to turn into 1/4lb burger patties that you can freeze and then use for everything.  The risk of contamination is also far less because you are grinding it yourself.  The taste and texture of homemade ground beef is also superior.  I personally only run mine through once as I like kind of a course grind instead of a double fine grind.  The course grind is more like a steak burger that hasn't been ground into nothingness.

Store bought ground beef can and does get bacteria and such in it from time to time that causes people to get sick as it grows and spreads in the inside which is why fast food chains all cook burgers to well done and all restaurants that offer the option of ordering rare / medium have a disclaimer on their menus that you could get sick.  Lots of people also don't know that the FDA removed the requirement that packaged ground beef had to state whether or not it contained "Pink Slime" technically called Finely Textured Beef.  It is now in most every form of ground beef you buy at the store.  Watch some videos on Youtube about how Finely Textured Beef is made and I guarantee you won't want to be eating it... Absolutely nasty, disgusting stuff that secretly gets added into almost all forms of common ground beef now.         
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: HansB on November 03, 2020, 07:42:36 PM
Anyone have a solution to avoid this or a short cut? Perhaps

Just don't strain them?
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Fiorot on November 04, 2020, 08:18:39 PM
Just don't strain them?
dont get the same flavor
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Andrew Bellucci on November 05, 2020, 10:13:08 PM
Wouldn't a food mill with the fine plate do the trick?

Tellier #3 for the win...

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/tellier-x3-5-qt-stainless-steel-food-mill-3-12-x-9-3-4/9804257032.html (https://www.webstaurantstore.com/tellier-x3-5-qt-stainless-steel-food-mill-3-12-x-9-3-4/9804257032.html)
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: NY_Mike on November 06, 2020, 10:19:10 AM
the thing that takes me the longest and I like the least is pushing scalfani crushed through a mesh strainer with a wooden spoon to remove skin and seeds. Anyone have a solution to avoid this or a short cut? Perhaps purchasing another brand of tomatoes might help...

Yeah definitely a food mill as some others have pointed out. While you may not get the exact same texture as using a fine mesh strainer, I think it'll get you pretty close especially if you change the disk in your food mill to something extra fine.
Yes, you will also get a random seeds here and there that managed to wiggle its way thru but it's negligible.

I used to go thru the process of slicing the tomato's open and removing the seeds by hand, but just found it to be too much work, the food mill does the job 99% well enough that I have no complaints.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: foreplease on December 16, 2020, 11:42:24 PM

Brother Hermit, I have missed your posts and participation on the forum the last couple years. i hope you and your family are OK. We lost Nick last winter and Dough Doctor recently.
 
I am very interested to hear thoughts on this.  I don't use any oil in my sauce but I'd like to if it won't make it too greasy.  I always struggle with moisture on pies.

Right now I really have no idea what I am shooting for, admittedly, having never been to NY and had anything to compare it to.  Just what I've had at so called "NY style pizzarias" outside of NY.  Seems like a wide range between them all in the sauce, I guess this is what sets a lot of them apart if they're using the same ovens/cheese/flour.

Right now I have this renegade sauce that I like, changing up between tomatoes seems to bring a difference to the base.  I've been able to add in some red wine vinegar or white sugar to alter a Roma WP tomato to get a little closer to SM but it's still not the same.  Standard WP tomatoes seem to need the most work but around here they have a lot of the salt already in them. 

My seasonings have changed a lot but I seem to really like 1tsp of granular garlic and oregano, 1/2 tsp of black pepper and crushed red pepper in the sauce.  Using white sugar or red wine vinegar to adjust the sweetness or acidity of the sauce.  I'm finding the salt bounces between 1/2tsp and 1tsp depending on the sodium content of tomatoes.  After about 4 months of using almost exclusively SM tomatoes it seems like the roma WP tomatoes need some work.  No side by side comparisons just perception at this point.  I've been trying to take most tomato products between crushed, WP, diced, and get the flavor and consistency to a familiar ballpark.  It takes me a good 2 hours to make the sauce from the time it's strained until it's done just cooking down the juice and getting the salt/sweet/acid right.  Last time I did a taste test throughout the seasoning process and while it wasn't a rested sauce, I still got the general idea of the profile.  The fresh ground black pepper and granulated garlic both seemed to bring the most layered and noticable flavor profiles over the rest of ingredients.

I have tried about 8 different tomatoes, so this is from a very limited perspective!  I see a lot of members using various brands of tomatoes and I am sure they are great and more commercially used, my ingredients are mostly from a standard grocery shoppers perspective.  I don't get out much.

I think I have my local pizzaria beat out on sauce but I need to do a purchase and comparison with some testers to see  ;D
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2021, 05:03:10 PM
That sounds great. I'm not ready to make the number of changes to my sauce to replicate it immediately, but I'm very tempted to try a bit of anchovy paste as I've been curious about it for a while. If you added a 1/4 tsp for 20" pie, maybe I'll do 1/8 tsp for 16".

But, what do you guys think about the anchovy paste going into a raw uncooked sauce?

Also, is there a big difference in quality/flavor across different brands of paste or can I just buy whatever the supermarket has in stock?

Finally coming back to this 2 years later. I now have anchovy paste. Questions:

- Fine to put in in a raw sauce? Edit: meaning, does the anchovy need extra cooking to develop flavor, or would just the pie bake be sufficient from a flavor perspective? (I'm not too concerned about safety, it seems safe to eat it from the tube.)

- How much for 1.25 cups of sauce? I was surprised the Cento paste I bought has only 550mg of sodium in 2 tsp. I was thinking 1/2 tsp, though that's probably double what JKB used.

Matt
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: SHB on March 10, 2021, 06:21:05 PM
Yea anchovy paste is fine to include "raw" (its cooked).

I think you would definitely notice the flavor using 1 tsp in 1 cup of sauce. Perhaps start with .5 tsp and bump up from there if you're unfamiliar with it.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: parallei on March 10, 2021, 06:28:20 PM
Finally coming back to this 2 years later. I now have anchovy paste. Questions:

- Fine to put in in a raw sauce?

- How much for 1.25 cups of sauce? I was surprised the Cento paste I bought has only 550mg of sodium in 2 tsp. I was thinking 1/2 tsp, though that's probably double what JKB used.

Matt

1) I'd guess the paste has been pasteurized before being packaged. Therefore, I wouldn't be worried about putting it into a raw sauce that will probably be finished off in a very hot oven.

2) When I've used  anchovy paste, I like to have a bit of the taste, not just the umami background. But that is just me. For 1.25 cups of sauce, I'd go with a a teaspoon!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on March 10, 2021, 07:04:53 PM
Thank you both! I'm going to edit my post above to elaborate that question 1 was intended to be more about whether the anchovy needs extra cooking to develop flavor, rather than food safety.

I'm thinking I'll add the anchovy to the tomato without any other seasoning and taste it...then maybe add a bit more. Maybe in 1/4 tsp increments.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: parallei on March 10, 2021, 08:41:33 PM
......whether the anchovy needs extra cooking to develop flavor, rather than food safety.

I don't think it needs any cooking to develop flavor. Just whisk it into whatever your normal sauce is. That said, I never cook my sauce! Let us know what you think!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: johnnyoak on April 14, 2021, 09:59:45 AM
How is everyone thinning their sauce out? Water to achieve the standard NY sauce consistency Iíve seen seems like it would dilute the flavor.

Iím using the recipe from Pizza Bible (mix of 7/11, superdolce with a little hand crushed whole tomatoes) which tastes spot on, but it is extremely thick and isnít really harmonious with the cheese post-bake.

Couldnít find any definitive answers...please help! Thank you!!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: hammettjr on April 14, 2021, 11:35:43 AM
I achieve thinness by using whole peeled tomatoes. 7/11 never got me there.

I put Alta Cucina through a food mill using the fine plate. Nothing else to thin it.

Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: johnnyoak on April 14, 2021, 01:14:47 PM
Will give that a try. Iíve been using Alta Cucina, so I think I need to up the amount! Thank you.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: Jon in Albany on April 14, 2021, 02:29:25 PM
Currently on a Alta Cucina kick myself, but I used to run some 7/11 or Tomato Magic through a food mill and combine that with some right from the can.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: piesofsatan on April 17, 2021, 12:55:05 PM
After all my experimentation Iím currently back to basics using either Alta Cucina or 7/11, with very small amounts of salt, some oregano and oil. Sometimes Iíll cut my Altas or 7/11 with a bit of Full Red. Have found the flavor being closest to that good slice shop flavor by keeping things simple.
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: johnnyoak on April 19, 2021, 11:43:13 PM
Thanks...will have to try that blend!
Title: Re: NY Style sauce discussion
Post by: SonVolt on April 20, 2021, 11:00:20 AM
Tellier #3 for the win...

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/tellier-x3-5-qt-stainless-steel-food-mill-3-12-x-9-3-4/9804257032.html (https://www.webstaurantstore.com/tellier-x3-5-qt-stainless-steel-food-mill-3-12-x-9-3-4/9804257032.html)


Sorry to hijack the thread, but any idea if/when Dave from Barstool sports is going to swing by your new place for "just one bite"?