Pizza Making Forum

Pizza Making => New York Style => Topic started by: Chronic mole on April 17, 2021, 06:25:09 AM

Title: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 17, 2021, 06:25:09 AM
Ok so I used this NY recipe I loosely used  https://youtu.be/smF801XVE3I i used my kitchen aid - used the dough attachment for about four mins- then I hand kneaded it for about 15. At this point it was difficult to get the dough to stick and form a ball .

I let it rise for about an hour and a half - when I tried to press it out the dough had no stretch to it at all it was tight .. it eventually tore ( big hole) during stretching....

I patched it up a bit but the dough was so tough I could barely form a proper crust .

As you can see it never even browned in the oven... Iím determined to get this right. Iíd appreciate it.

1. Can you tell me where you suspect I went wrong and how to fix it?

2. Recommend a recipe that utilizes a kitchen aid?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: texmex on April 17, 2021, 07:49:01 AM
Why did you knead an additional 15 minutes when your KA already did that work?  You forced gluten strands beyond what is needed, and created a very tight rubbery ball.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: jkb on April 17, 2021, 10:39:32 AM
#1.  You went wrong not following advice here.

#2.  Use a food processor if you have one.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: pvura on April 17, 2021, 01:48:13 PM
Definitely not an expert here but i can give my thoughts

1. I donít think there is a point in kneading the dough by hand if you have a Kitchenaid to use. I think you can just use the Kitchenaid to knead for about 7-8 mins or so. Using a KA and your hands to knead for 15 mins will overwork the gluten, resulting in a dense and stiff dough. A food processor, as mentioned by jkb, is even better in this case.

2. His recipe calls for standard bread flour. Try using a higher protein flour. If you canít find any in your area, i think king arthurís bread flour might be the next best thing for NY style.

3. Itís practically impossible to get a decent texture with only a 1.5 hour rise. The dough needs to mature and ferment for a long period of time in the cooling. Try refrigerating for at least 24 hrs or so. Formula is 0.2% yeast only so 1.5 hr rise at room temp is nowhere near enough.

4. I see the formula you used is a 63% hydration with roughly 2.5% oil. This gives the dough a roughly 65% total hydration. I might try keeping the oil the same but knock the water back to 58% or so.

5. I didnít do the exact math but this recipe seems to yield a pizza with a 0.1 TF. I might try a 0.085 TF and reduce gradually if you so choose.

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2021, 03:35:43 PM
Chronic mole,

Once you made the dough, did you manage it as shown in the video, including cold fermenting the dough? And did you let the dough balls warm up once they were removed from the refrigerator? Finally, can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, in terms of the type of oven, what you used as a carrier to bake the pizza (such as a pizza stone, baking steel, baking pan or pizza screen), and the bake temperature and time. If you moved the pizza around the oven, or used the broiler, please let us know. I assume that you did not use a Ooni Koda oven but I may be wrong on this.

As a side note, the amount of salt used in the dough in the video is 15/(450 + 50) = 3%. I deem that to be on the high side, and that amount of salt could have toughened the gluten matrix too much. Also, 1/4 teaspoon of IDY weighs about 0.75 grams, or 0.151%. That is not much for a dough that is to cold ferment for two days. The semolina flour will also add a bit more texture to the flour blend and call for a slight increase in hydration, which now stands at 314/500 = 62.5%.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 17, 2021, 03:54:32 PM
Chronic mole,

Once you made the dough, did you manage it as shown in the video, including cold fermenting the dough? And did you let the dough balls warm up once they were removed from the refrigerator? Finally, can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, in terms of the type of oven, what you used as a carrier to bake the pizza (such as a pizza stone, baking steel, baking pan or pizza screen), and the bake temperature and time. If you moved the pizza around the oven, or used the broiler, please let us know. I assume that you did not use a Ooni Koda oven but I may be wrong on this.

As a side note, the amount of salt used in the dough in the video is 15/(450 + 50) = 3%. I deem that to be on the high side, and that amount of salt could have toughened the gluten matrix too much. Also, 1/4 teaspoon of IDY weighs about 0.75 grams, or 0.151%. That is not much for a dough that is to cold ferment for two days. The semolina flour will also add a bit more texture to the flour blend and call for a slight increase in hydration, which now stands at 314/500 = 62.5%.

Peter

Peter,
I did not cold ferment . I let rise at 1.5 room temperature . I baked on a pizza stone pre heated in the oven at
500 F for an hour. I did not use the broiler feature or move the pizza around.based on your questions I messed up bad it seems.

I just ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.1. G... maybe thatíll help

Also, is there any Recipe you can recommend thatíll measure in volume - cups and teaspoon and tablespoons - while I wait for my scale ?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 17, 2021, 04:41:47 PM
Peter,
I did not cold ferment . I let rise at 1.5 room temperature . I baked on a pizza stone pre heated in the oven at
500 F for an hour. I did not use the broiler feature or move the pizza around based on your questions I messed up bad it seems.

I just ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.1. G... maybe thatíll help

Also, is there any Recipe you can recommend thatíll measure in volume - cups and teaspoon and tablespoons - while I wait for my scale ?
Chronic mole,

Are you interested only in making a dough that can be used within only a few hours at room temperature or are you prepared to make and cold ferment the dough? And does the dough have to be used to make a NY style pizza or do you have something different in mind that you would prefer? It might also help if you can tell us what kind of flour you will be using, in terms of its type (e.g., bread flour) and also its protein content if you know it.

The reason you failed is because the recipe you used is intended to be used to make a cold fermented dough over about two days. A recipe for making what is often called an "emergency" dough (one that can be made and used within a few hours) has much different quantities of ingredients and temperatures.

As for an example that is also recited in volume measurements, you might take a look at a Papa John's clone pizza that I made and discussed in great detail at Reply 20 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217

The above post also discusses how I made the dough for the PJ clone pizza using my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I also used a pizza screen although some members have used pizza stones. However, because of the high sugar content in the PJ clone dough, the bottom crust can turn dark fairly quickly and maybe burn if one is not very careful in watching how the bottom crust bakes. Raising the pizza to a higher oven position (without moving the stone) when the bottom crust is at the desired color can help prevent further darkening of the bottom crust.

As you may know, Papa John's has at least one store in the Bahamas ;D.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 17, 2021, 08:18:24 PM
OK Iím trying this again with a new recipe - a bit of emergency - I canít get my dough ball to be smooth into itself ... itís currently in this form.. what should I do? I have it on the counter in a container
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 18, 2021, 02:49:42 PM
i used my kitchen aid - used the dough attachment for about four mins- then I hand kneaded it for about 15. At this point it was difficult to get the dough to stick and form a ball .

I let it rise for about an hour and a half - when I tried to press it out the dough had no stretch to it at all it was tight .. it eventually tore ( big hole) during stretching....

I patched it up a bit but the dough was so tough I could barely form a proper crust .

As you can see it never even browned in the oven... Iím determined to get this right. Iíd appreciate it.

1. Can you tell me where you suspect I went wrong and how to fix it?

2. Recommend a recipe that utilizes a kitchen aid?

As a novice baker/pizza-maker, you need to follow recipes exactly. Until you've mastered a dough recipe, I would avoid recipe modifications and experimentation altogether. It is a...recipe...for failure. When you are ready to experiment, change only one thing at a time. This will help you learn. If you change more than one thing at a time, you will slow the learning process.

I would suggest starting with a recipe containing only these 4 ingredients: Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast. These are the absolute essential primal ingredients of pizza dough. All other ingredients are flare and are non-essential. Skip the extras like semolina, oil, sugar etc., at least for now. These extras complicate the process and create additional opportunities for measurement error. A flour/water/salt/yeast-only dough is easy to incorporate and honestly, with the right fermentation, can rival most any other pizza dough recipe.

Try this recipe. I've put the salt and yeast ingredients in teaspoons for ease of measurement since it sounds like you don't have a 0.01g scale. Combine the dry ingredients little-by-little with all of the water and mix in your stand mixer with a dough hook until juuuust incorporated. Turn out onto a lightly-floured surface, knead the dough a couple times just to get it together and form into a smooth ball. Remember, it is better to underwork the dough than overwork it! Let rise at room temperature (about 70F) until doubled in size (Probably about 1-2 hours). Divide into four dough balls, place into oiled containers, and cold ferment in the fridge for a few days.

Flour   788g   100%
Water   473g   60%
Salt   3 tsp     2.1%
IDY   1 tsp   0.4%


Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2021, 03:22:42 PM

Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 18, 2021, 03:30:57 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter

I got the same impression as well. Though I suspect such a mistake would be impossible to verify. My overall impression was that he/she is very green and needs to simplify the process.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 18, 2021, 04:29:24 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter

I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 18, 2021, 04:40:13 PM
I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.

Do you have kitchen scales? Weighing your ingredients will help eliminate variability.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2021, 04:45:27 PM
I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.
Chronic mole,

Is this the recipe you used?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

Or is it this one?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

In either case, other than the flour, did you change the recipe in any way, including the mixing and kneading methods? And can you tell us how you got the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup?

Peter

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 18, 2021, 06:58:45 PM
Chronic mole,

Is this the recipe you used?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

Or is it this one?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

In either case, other than the flour, did you change the recipe in any way, including the mixing and kneading methods? And can you tell us how you got the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup?

Peter
I used the latter.

Other than the flour I only used the dough attachment on my kitchen aid . 2 mins on setting 1 pre oil once I incorporated the oil I went on setting 2 for 3 mins and then I hand kneaded for 1 minute.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2021, 07:02:27 PM
I used the latter.

Other than the flour I only used the dough attachment on my kitchen aid . 2 mins on setting 1 pre oil once I incorporated the oil I went on setting 2 for 3 mins and then I hand kneaded for 1 minute.
And how did you get the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup? What I am trying to determine is the baker's percents for the dough recipe you used.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 18, 2021, 07:05:33 PM
Here are the results of my second pizza. Overall I think itís better than the first.

1. Iíve ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G so I will measure my ingredients by weight moving forward.

2. I believe I should have used more sauce. I believe that is evident?

3. I need to figure out how to ge the crust to brown without burning the cheese. I tired this method where I pre baked the dough and just sauce for a while and then took it out and added cheese. What happened was a giant bubble formed in the dough pre cheese and it looked like a pita. Can someone assist me in this regard?

5. I believe the crust is too thick? I should have made it smaller?

6. Open to any other comments, criticisms, and suggestions .

7. I should add I added a lil extra fresh mozzarella at the end ( it wasnít melted at the time of this pic).
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 18, 2021, 07:06:56 PM
And how did you get the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup? What I am trying to determine is the baker's percents for the dough recipe you used.

Peter

I used a spoon - shook off excessive flour and poured it into the cup and then leveled it off with the back of a knife:
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2021, 07:30:08 PM
Chronic mole,

Maybe you have already told us but did you cold ferment the dough and, if so, for how long before you removed the dough from the refrigerator? And did you let the dough rest for a while before using it to make the pizza?

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 18, 2021, 07:32:22 PM
Chronic mole,

Maybe you have already told us but did you cold ferment the dough and, if so, for how long before you removed the dough from the refrigerator? And did you let the dough rest for a while before using it to make the pizza?

Peter

Cold fermented the dough for 22  hrs and I let the dough rest at room temperature for 3 hours before using it.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 18, 2021, 07:49:03 PM
Here are the results of my second pizza. Overall I think itís better than the first.

1. Iíve ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G so I will measure my ingredients by weight moving forward.

2. I believe I should have used more sauce. I believe that is evident?

3. I need to figure out how to ge the crust to brown without burning the cheese. I tired this method where I pre baked the dough and just sauce for a while and then took it out and added cheese. What happened was a giant bubble formed in the dough pre cheese and it looked like a pita. Can someone assist me in this regard?

5. I believe the crust is too thick? I should have made it smaller?

6. Open to any other comments, criticisms, and suggestions .

7. I should add I added a lil extra fresh mozzarella at the end ( it wasnít melted at the time of this pic).

You can experiment with varying sizes of cheese pieces. Fine grated cheese will melt and burn more quickly than cheese that has been cut from the block and cubed into 1/4" to 1/2" pieces. Thick whole slices will melt even more slowly, but are usually reserved for fresh mozzarella. Regarding the sauce and adding fresh mozzarella at the end, that is your preference! Crust thickness is also up to you. I usually shoot for 1/16" to 1/8" at the center. Sugar, diastatic malt, and oil will help with browning. Broiling is a great method to achieve browning also.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 18, 2021, 08:02:56 PM
Chronic mole,

Piecing together everything you have told us, I think that the recipe you used but substituting all purpose flour should have worked for the most part (more on this later).

The way you measured out your all purpose flour seems to be close to the Textbook method of flour measurement as described in the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/FoodSim.htm

If you accurately measured out the water (9 ounces), I estimate that the hydration of the dough you made was around 58.3%. That is a bit on the low side for an all purpose flour but the recipe also calls for a tablespoon of olive oil, or about 3%. Oil has a wetting effect on the dough even though it cannot hydrate the dough as water does. But it is common to combine the hydration and oil percents to see haw the combined number measures against the rated hydration value of the flour. In this case, the combined value is 58.3 + 3 = 61.3%. That number is close to 61%, which is a common rated absorption value for all purpose flour. But that does not mean that the hydration value used to make the dough shouldn't be higher. In cases like this, it is common to raise the hydration by a couple of percent to start to see if that improves matters. And make further adjustments in future efforts if deemed necessary or desirable.

What surprised me when I looked at the recipe you used is the amount of IDY, at one teaspoon. That amount of yeast comes to about 0.688%. In my judgment, that amount is high for a dough that is to be cold fermented for a day. It might also cause the dough to ferment too quickly and cause the yeast to consume the sugars created in the dough too quickly, leaving too little residual fermentation sugars to contribute to crust coloration. I would be inclined to use something closer to 0.40%. Otherwise, I would add about 1-2% sugar to the dough.

The salt, at around 1%, if correct, is on the low side and would not restrain yeast performance as much as a higher value of salt. A more typical value would be around 1.5-1.75%.

I still think it is a good idea to find a good basic recipe to use and try it out a few times, and make tweaks as warranted, much as member TurkeyOnRye suggested earlier in this thread. That is how one learns to make good pizza.

Peter

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 19, 2021, 03:03:36 PM
Chronic mole,

I had meant to mention in my last post that the recipe you used makes a dough of around 25.62 ounces by my best estimation. In that regard, I noticed that the instructions for the recipe does not give a pizza size. I took a guess that the amount of dough mentioned above is perhaps for an 18" pizza. Using that size, I calculated the thickness factor to be 25.62/(3.14159 x 9 x 9) = 0.10. Most NY style pizzas tend to have a thickness factor of around 0.085 but I have seen larger thicknesses than that but not quite 0.10. To get to 0.085, you would want to use 3.14159 x 9 x9 x 0.085 = 21.63 ounces of dough. I might add that in my own case, in a home setting, I have tended to like a thickness factor of around 0.10.

An an alternative to the 18" size, you could cut the dough into two pieces, each weighing around 12.8 ounces, and make two 14" pizzas. The thickness factor in that case would be around 12.8/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.083.

Your numbers may vary a bit, but using the Textbook method of flour measurement does not yield a big difference in numbers between high gluten flour (as called for in the recipe you used) and all purpose flour. The difference is slight.

If you decide you want to try the recipe again and increase the amount of salt, you can use 2 1/4 teaspoons (1.75%). If you would like to add some sugar, you can use 1 3/4 teaspoons (1%).

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 21, 2021, 09:57:48 PM
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 22, 2021, 09:51:52 AM
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?
Chronic mole,

Tom Lehmann used to suggest that one open up dough balls after removal from the refrigerator or cooler once the internal temperature of the dough was 50-60F:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58962.msg591518;topicseen#msg591518

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61162.msg611269#msg611269

My practice has been to use around 60F and sometimes a bit higher.

Peter

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 22, 2021, 11:20:21 AM
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?

Chronic mole,

Tom Lehmann used to suggest that one open up dough balls after removal from the refrigerator or cooler once the internal temperature of the dough was 50-60F:

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=58962.msg591518;topicseen#msg591518

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61162.msg611269#msg611269

My practice has been to use around 60F and sometimes a bit higher.

Peter

I would make a concerted effort to get the temperature down in my kitchen. A steep temperature gradient can cause the dough to rise on the outer surface while the inside remains cold and biochemically-hypoactive. You could experiment with putting the dough container inside another closed container to create an air space which might help. However, I have not tried this out for myself.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 22, 2021, 07:55:13 PM
Thank you both. I have been conducting extensive research on this forum and I'm planning my next bake soon. Some further questions.

1. This is the stone I use in my oven ( the only stone I could find here)... I wonder is it to thick? https://www.hardwareandtools.com/omaha-bbq-37239-stone-pizza-bgka-2676.html

2. I have bought a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G. this is the dough recipe I plan on using, can i have your thoughts?:

    Grams
Flour(100%)   235.43
Water(63%)   148.32
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)   0.94
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)   4.71
Olive Oil (2%)   4.71
Sugar (0.8%)   1.88
Total (168.2%)   396
Single Ball (1 balls total)   396





Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2021, 10:04:11 AM
Chronic mole,

I can't speak to the stone, although I did not see a thickness given for it.

As for the recipe you posted, it looks to be a workable formulation but the only way to know is to simply try it.

What size pizza do you intend to make?

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Anton1 on April 23, 2021, 11:38:03 AM
Quick question:

Moving forward I intend to leave the dough on the counter for 3 hours after cold-fermenting for 24 hrs. My question is - my kitchen is extremely hot I would say between 85-90 degrees Fahrenheit... would subjecting my dough to this temperature for 3 hours adversely affect it prior to baking?

See reply #261 for yeast suggestions: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271

Anton1
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2021, 12:32:16 PM
See reply #261 for yeast suggestions: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26831.msg393271#msg393271

Anton1
Anton,

Good thinking. After I had posted, I thought of the same thread that you cited.

What I observed over the years was that Tom Lehmann's favorite amount of yeast for different doughs, including the NY style, was 0.375% IDY, and the dough could cold ferment for up to three days. Here is a typical post in this regard:

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60439.msg605879;topicseen#msg605879

Since the 0.375% number had stuck out in my mind, out of curiosity this morning I did a search of Tom's posts in which he mentioned the 0.375% IDY. There were 68 posts ;D

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 23, 2021, 12:38:02 PM
Chronic mole,

I can't speak to the stone, although I did not see a thickness given for it.

As for the recipe you posted, it looks to be a workable formulation but the only way to know is to simply try it.

What size pizza do you intend to make?

Peter

15 inch pie . I wonder if I should increase the amount of sugar to help the crust brown .
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 23, 2021, 01:55:00 PM
15 inch pie . I wonder if I should increase the amount of sugar to help the crust brown .
Chronic mole,

Increasing the amount of sugar a bit shouldn't be a problem. However, Tom Lehmann usually recommended adding about 1-2% sugar to a NY style dough formulation if the cold fermentation period exceeded about two days.

As for your pizza size, a dough ball weighing 396 grams is 396/28.35 = 13.968 ounces. For a 15" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor would be 13.968/(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5) = 0.079. That is on the low side for a basic NY style pizza. For a 14" pizza, the corresponding thickness factor is 0.0907. As between the two sizes, I personally would go with the 14" size. But that is up to you. Doing is how one learns.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 24, 2021, 10:22:56 PM
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 25, 2021, 05:41:54 AM
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?

It all has to do with the brand. I may be wrong, but I believe there is no industry standard for protein content in bread flour. It looks like your bread flour is Gold Medal, which is a brand that has been known to produce flours that are pretty low in protein. It might be fair to note that there is likely rounding involved in the calculation. Send the manufacturer an email for a more precise answer.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jsaras on April 25, 2021, 10:27:34 AM
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan. 
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 25, 2021, 11:08:31 AM
See these posts by the late Tom Lehmann:

Reply 3 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=57478.msg583373#msg583373

Reply 6 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=36378.msg363250#msg363250

From the photos, it looks like the two flours are from two different companies.

Peter

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Anton1 on April 26, 2021, 10:00:27 AM
Iím a bit confused - why does my all purpose  flour (4%) have more protein than my bread flour (3%)? I thought the point of using bread flour instead was for a higher protein percentage ?

Consider that the same millís product may have different properties depending on where itís sold, as noted here: http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm  (http://www.theartisan.net/MainCommFrm.htm)

And also the quality of the gluten as well as the quantity as detailed here: https://www.ffi.nz/product/glutomatic/ (https://www.ffi.nz/product/glutomatic/)

Anton1
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: 9slicePie on April 26, 2021, 10:07:24 AM
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan.
What should it be for Neapolitan?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jsaras on April 26, 2021, 10:19:42 AM
What should it be for Neapolitan?

I donít know this to be definitive, but Caputo Blue is 11.5% protein.  The Italians give more detail on their flours.  They include ďWĒ value and elasticity (P/L), which speak to how long of a fermentation time the flour can be used.  This is above my pay grade, but you may find this interesting: http://www.theartisan.net/flour_criteria_judging.htm
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 26, 2021, 12:12:15 PM
The percentages mentioned on the labels refer to the recommended daily nutritional values, not the amount of protein in the flour itself. The lower protein flour is 10% protein (3g protein /30 gram serving size).  The other flour is 13.3% (4/30).  13% protein is the sweet spot for most pizza, other than Neapolitan.

Well that sucks because the flour with 10% protein is Bread Flour and the flour with 13% protein is All purpose lour... despite this - should I use bread flour anyway?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jsaras on April 26, 2021, 12:26:27 PM
I'm still not sure what kind of pizza you want to make.  If you're chasing a NY pizza, the 13% flour is unquestionably the right choice.  If you want to make a Neapolitan pizza baked at 900F, then neither flour is ideal.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 26, 2021, 12:33:51 PM
I'm still not sure what kind of pizza you want to make.  If you're chasing a NY pizza, the 13% flour is unquestionably the right choice.  If you want to make a Neapolitan pizza baked at 900F, then neither flour is ideal.

I want to make a NY pizza - the first pizza I made was with the all-purpose flour (13%) protein. I was told I need to use bread flour instead and sought it out and purchased it - only to find out that it has a lower protein content.

Is there anything that makes bread flour inherently better than all-purpose flour for NY pizza besides the protein content?


Ultimately, my question is do i still with the all purpose flour or make the pizza with the new bread flour?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jsaras on April 26, 2021, 12:41:29 PM
Just use your original flour.  If you don't want to waste your lower protein "bread" flour you could blend the two flours (I'd use 25% or less).
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Anton1 on April 26, 2021, 07:31:34 PM
I want to make a NY pizza - the first pizza I made was with the all-purpose flour (13%) protein. I was told I need to use bread flour instead and sought it out and purchased it - only to find out that it has a lower protein content.

Is there anything that makes bread flour inherently better than all-purpose flour for NY pizza besides the protein content?


Ultimately, my question is do i still with the all purpose flour or make the pizza with the new bread flour?

Have you considered boosting the protein percent of either flour by the addition of VWG?

The chart shown at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245) gives a range of protein percent increase for some common brands of VWG.

anton1
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 26, 2021, 07:45:44 PM
Have you considered boosting the protein percent of either flour by the addition of VWG?

The chart shown at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245 (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245) gives a range of protein percent increase for some common brands of VWG.

anton1

I do not recommend doing this, as it complicates the dough-making process and is an additional cost. It doesn't make sense to spend $8-$15 for VWG to upgrade a cheap bag of flour. Even good flours are quite cheap and easy to find. I'd recommend heading to a restaurant supply store and picking up a medium-size sack of high-gluten flour. I was able to find a 25-lb. bag of Grain Craft Power Flour at a local store for $10.75. Might as well get good kitchen equipment while you're there too. Supermarkets just don't carry a lot of the good stuff we're looking for.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 26, 2021, 07:50:51 PM
I do not recommend doing this, as it complicates the dough-making process and is an additional cost. It doesn't make sense to spend $8-$15 for VWG to upgrade a cheap bag of flour. Even good flours are quite cheap and easy to find. I'd recommend heading to a restaurant supply store and picking up a medium-size sack of high-gluten flour. I was able to find a 25-lb. bag of Grain Craft Power Flour at a local store for $10.75.
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on April 26, 2021, 08:01:15 PM
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter

Ah, yes. That does make things more difficult. I don't know his specific location, but there appear to be restaurant supply stores in the region according to Google Maps.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 27, 2021, 02:01:53 PM
Thank you both. I have been conducting extensive research on this forum and I'm planning my next bake soon. Some further questions.

1. This is the stone I use in my oven ( the only stone I could find here)... I wonder is it to thick? https://www.hardwareandtools.com/omaha-bbq-37239-stone-pizza-bgka-2676.html

2. I have bought a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G. this is the dough recipe I plan on using, can i have your thoughts?:

    Grams
Flour(100%)   235.43
Water(63%)   148.32
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)   0.94
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)   4.71
Olive Oil (2%)   4.71
Sugar (0.8%)   1.88
Total (168.2%)   396
Single Ball (1 balls total)   396

My dough looks and handled much better using this recipe and the scale!
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 27, 2021, 02:03:28 PM
Ah, yes. That does make things more difficult. I don't know his specific location, but there appear to be restaurant supply stores in the region according to Google Maps.
I looked around and saw this but Iím not paying $13 for  this small bag of flour lol. I presume there is a price mark up from the USA.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help
Post by: [email protected] on April 29, 2021, 09:21:08 AM
Chronic, not sure if my advice will help, but maybe a fellow newbie here can relate to your struggles. First off, spend enough time here and you will be making better pizza in short order. This place has taken my pies from crap to what I used to taste as a kid in Brooklyn.

I arrived here via a site that lays out the basics very well, so well in fact, that despite everything I pour through now around here, I still go back and reread now and again, just to be sure Iím not missing anything else. This gal credits getting her pie dialed in with assistance from the experts here at pizzamaking.com and The Dough Doctor. Follow her steps and suggestions and recipe and you canít help but make better pie.
https://feelingfoodish.com/the-best-new-york-style-pizza-dough/

It also freezes great. I use these Rubbermaid containers, make four doughs at time, cold ferment them a couple of days and freeze or use that week as planned. https://www.amazon.com/Rubbermaid-TakeAlongs-Storage-Container-1779039/dp/B0011144CC/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=rubbermaid+take+along+containers+round&qid=1619702103&s=home-garden&sr=1-6

Second: Sauce, so important for flavor, but too much ruins everything. I definitely wouldnít add more, thin to win is the way to go if you have the appropriate thickness of crust and the right amount of cheese. Too much of either is no good.

I use a super simple sauce that is so much better with jsarasí simple microwave extraction spicing. Tried both of his versions, the simple version is definitely the way to go. Find that process on page 1 of this thread, but read the complete thread for tips on getting it right in your microwave. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38976.0

My sauce recipe: 1 28 oz can tomato sauce, 1 6 oz can of tomato paste and jsarasí simple spice extraction: 1-2 TB olive oil, 1-2 tsp oregano and 1 clove crushed garlic, (jsaras calls for 1/2, but I just use the whole clove and itís perfect). Stir it all together, donít forget to add the salt, donít heat it, just let it meld together over night in fridge.

Cheese, definitely whole milk, low moisture (fresh is too wet). I use Galbani, and love the mild salty flavor it has, but realize your options may be limited on cheese.

I bring everything to room temp while I heat my stone. Just bought a bigger one and I give it a full two hour heat up, my oven is 500 max.

The dough recipe works great with KABF. On advice here, I have switched to ATBB, All Trumps Bleached and Bromated, itís perfect, but need to buy in 25# sack, so might be too much for you to store. Wife bought me a 25# sack for Valentineís Day, and Iím just about ready for another. 😃

Hereís my last pie from Saturday night, definitely my best effort so far, but can always get a little better and a little bigger!




Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: stevenfstein on April 29, 2021, 10:54:23 AM
not sure it is a viable solution or what the cost would be but perhaps to get started you could visit a local pizza shop that has a slice that you like and ask them if you can buy some flour. If they agree and it works out well you might be able to just buy 25 lbs of flour from them out of their shipment.

Best... Steve
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 29, 2021, 12:49:06 PM
My dough looks and handled much better using this recipe and the scale!

Here I am two days later after a cold ferment . My dough is on the counter being brought to room temperature.

However, I notice there was large bubbles on the top of the dough ?

Why did this happen and is the dough still safe to use?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 29, 2021, 01:18:56 PM
Here I am two days later after a cold ferment . My dough is on the counter being brought to room temperature.

However, I notice there was large bubbles on the top of the dough ?

Why did this happen and is the dough still safe to use?
Chronic mole,

Without a lot of information as to how the dough was made and fermented, it can be difficult to come up with a diagnosis. However, bubbles are usually not a problem. See, for example, the photo below. That bubble was most likely due to too much yeast (the dough was made using another member's recipe) but it was harmless. I simply pinched the bubble shut and let the dough cold ferment for five days. You can see the finished pizza at Reply 33 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2175.msg19801#msg19801

For another example of a bubble in the dough, one that emerged after about twelve days of cold fermentation, see Reply 29 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081

I do not know why or how the bubble shown in Reply 29 was formed but it was also harmless.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 29, 2021, 06:16:23 PM
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

As previously mentioned, I cold fermented two dough balls for ~48 hrs. I then allowed the dough to come to room temperature for 2 hrs. Simultaneously my oven was pre-heating to 550 degrees F. After 2 hrs. I picked up the first dough ball and placed it on a floured surface Ė the dough ball was very soft and thin. It was very difficult to shape because of how thin and soft it was. The first dough ball started to tear as soon as I picked it up to flip over to the other side Ė I had to discard it.

The second dough ball was in the same condition Ė I managed to shape it into something that resembled a pizza skin but it was very thin; there was a small hole but I managed to patch it ( so I thought). I dressed it with sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. It was so thin that it was difficult to get off the peel onto the stone, eventually, I was able to do this but then I realized the patched dough was not really patched and ultimately the pizza sauce began to leak out. It was a complete disaster Ė maybe pizza making isnít for me?

I followed the following recipe for two 15'' pizzas:

Flour(100%)492.9
Water(63%)310.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)2
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)9.9
Olive Oil (2%)9.9
Sugar (1%)4.9
Total (168.4%)830
Single Ball (2 balls total)415

My workflow was:

1.Mix water with salt
2.Pour half of flour in water Ė mix until combined Ė allow to sit for 20 mins.
3.Turn kitchen aid on 1 and slowly add more flour and add Instant yeast.
4.Once all of the flour was added I added the oil, and sugar and continued mixing. Total mix time was about 5 minutes. I then hand kneaded for 30 seconds and formed the dough balls as seen in reply #47.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: [email protected] on April 29, 2021, 07:50:49 PM
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

It was a complete disaster Ė maybe pizza making isnít for me?

Donít give up pizza maker. Seriously. Rome wasnít built in a day. 

Take a look at the link I shared and follow the tips and suggestions. Think you will find some good advice for newbie bakers in there and have better results in no time.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: [email protected] on April 29, 2021, 08:08:37 PM
Also, watching video on dough stretching really improved my results.

Norma has a bunch featuring Frank Giaquinto. Donít try the spin in the air part though 😉
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4J5Pvz4XkYk&t=6s

GoodFellas pizza school is helpful https://youtube.com/watch?v=GtAeKM_f2WU&feature=emb_title

And this one also offers some good video to pick up technique. https://youtube.com/watch?v=li7BEwJeocY
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: sal951 on April 29, 2021, 11:55:33 PM
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

Don't be, just have patience and it'll come. I'm a fairly big/strong guy, finesse and using a light touch aren't things which are my strong suit. The first few times I tried to open up a dough ball were utter disasters. Ultimately I was trying to take on too complicated of a technique. I started out with just trying not to screw up gravity stretching the crust, then moved to some more adventurous methods. Now I hand toss them which my kids, niece and nephew all think is the coolest thing ever, and I never break them. It's just leaning the technique, you're going to screw up. Buy your ingredients in bulk and make more than you need. I think when I was really starting to get the hang of things I was making a pizza per night for over a week, it drove my wife crazy - she was so sick of pizza being around, but practice makes perfect. If we were working in restaurants we'd get it in a day or two, but the volume is a little lower in our home kitchens so it just takes some fortitude. Stick to it, you'll get it and then you'll be glad you didn't give up.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: [email protected] on April 30, 2021, 12:08:52 AM
Buy your ingredients in bulk and make more than you need. I think when I was really starting to get the hang of things I was making a pizza per night for over a week, it drove my wife crazy - she was so sick of pizza being around, but practice makes perfect. If we were working in restaurants we'd get it in a day or two, but the volume is a little lower in our home kitchens so it just takes some fortitude. Stick to it, you'll get it and then you'll be glad you didn't give up.

This is really good advice. You will learn more stretching a dough and baking a pie every night for a week than spreading it out over a month. Also, make more small pies to start, if you botch it, no big loss, but you will learn something from every attempt.
Title: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jsaras on April 30, 2021, 12:29:21 AM
Dough handling is a skill acquired over time.  Youíll begin to get the feel for it after doing it 10 or 12 times.  Make a batch of 6 dough balls and stretch them back to back. 

Holes can be fixed using some bench flour and pinching them closed, but thin spots are tricky.  Sometimes you can lay salami down before you apply the sauce, so it creates a barrier from the moisture.  Or, you can go cheese first and put the sauce on top in a stripe or circular pattern, or dollops.

This video is terrific, just ignore the part about using a screen. https://youtu.be/AbkfDqA8yKg
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: stevenfstein on April 30, 2021, 05:15:54 AM
what was the diameter of your pie? How big are you trying to stretch it to?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: jkb on April 30, 2021, 05:31:46 AM
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter

No gluten?  Man, the Bahamas suck!  Of course, you shouldn't eat pizza if you want to maintain your beach body.


Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: texmex on April 30, 2021, 08:07:16 AM
what was the diameter of your pie? How big are you trying to stretch it to?


As stated,  two 15 inch pies, 415 grams each.


Which brand of Bahamas flour was this last batch?  I see "OK flour" brand and 5 roses as common all purpose flour available for food industry and beyond in that locale.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: [email protected] on April 30, 2021, 09:21:35 AM
Chronic, just reread this entire thread and something occurred to me. Your initial dough ball on page 3 looked primo, but after coming to room temp you had big bubbles that gave you grief.

My thought was Room Temperature, thatís a pretty generic term. I live in Colorado and my kitchen temperature is in the 60s a good percentage of the year, but you are in the Bahamas at 85-90 room temp. Thatís a huge difference. I maybe wouldnít take room temperature quite so literally in your case and might say instead, ďtake the chill outĒ as Iím guessing your dough warms up in about an hour.

Somebody mentioned 55-60 degrees F as a workable dough temperature. In my limited experience, dough I have let warm too long is tougher to work with than if it still feels a bit cool to my fingertips. When slightly cool itís still quite elastic and extensible, but not as quick to get overly thin spots or tears.

Just a thought, sure others will weigh in.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 30, 2021, 12:14:03 PM
Dough handling is a skill acquired over time.  Youíll begin to get the feel for it after doing it 10 or 12 times.  Make a batch of 6 dough balls and stretch them back to back. 

Holes can be fixed using some bench flour and pinching them closed, but thin spots are tricky.  Sometimes you can lay salami down before you apply the sauce, so it creates a barrier from the moisture.  Or, you can go cheese first and put the sauce on top in a stripe or circular pattern, or dollops.

This video is terrific, just ignore the part about using a screen. https://youtu.be/AbkfDqA8yKg


The issue is - I'm not sure if my dough handling or stretching was the issue - on my second attempt I was able to stretch and handle the dough easily -- I believe there was some deficiency in my dough making process itself.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 30, 2021, 12:16:52 PM
I'm just confused as to why my dough balls looked much better this time but they never 'firmed up' even after 48 hour cold fermentation and remained 'soft'. It was so soft and thin.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 30, 2021, 12:20:17 PM

As stated,  two 15 inch pies, 415 grams each.


Which brand of Bahamas flour was this last batch?  I see "OK flour" brand and 5 roses as common all purpose flour available for food industry and beyond in that locale.

This brand https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/robin-hood-original-all-purpose-flour-25kg/6000016955603
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on April 30, 2021, 12:21:37 PM
Donít give up pizza maker. Seriously. Rome wasnít built in a day. 

Take a look at the link I shared and follow the tips and suggestions. Think you will find some good advice for newbie bakers in there and have better results in no time.

[email protected],

I appreciate your encouragement and advice!
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: texmex on April 30, 2021, 12:31:17 PM
This brand https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/robin-hood-original-all-purpose-flour-25kg/6000016955603 (https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/robin-hood-original-all-purpose-flour-25kg/6000016955603)


I used that brand many years ago with no problems.
I think MileHigh may be correct about ambient room temps.  I live in an extremely hot location and sometimes I need to put my room temps back in the fridge because they are just getting blown out with bubbles too fast.  Alternately, you can use an ice chest with a frozen bottle of water or 2 to keep a slightly cool environment for your dough that is not as cold as the fridge, or as hot as your house.  Keep trying, you will get there. Opening up dough balls takes patience to get the feel for it.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on April 30, 2021, 01:17:23 PM
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

As previously mentioned, I cold fermented two dough balls for ~48 hrs. I then allowed the dough to come to room temperature for 2 hrs. Simultaneously my oven was pre-heating to 550 degrees F. After 2 hrs. I picked up the first dough ball and placed it on a floured surface Ė the dough ball was very soft and thin. It was very difficult to shape because of how thin and soft it was. The first dough ball started to tear as soon as I picked it up to flip over to the other side Ė I had to discard it.

The second dough ball was in the same condition Ė I managed to shape it into something that resembled a pizza skin but it was very thin; there was a small hole but I managed to patch it ( so I thought). I dressed it with sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. It was so thin that it was difficult to get off the peel onto the stone, eventually, I was able to do this but then I realized the patched dough was not really patched and ultimately the pizza sauce began to leak out. It was a complete disaster Ė maybe pizza making isnít for me?

I followed the following recipe for two 15'' pizzas:

Flour(100%)492.9
Water(63%)310.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)2
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)9.9
Olive Oil (2%)9.9
Sugar (1%)4.9
Total (168.4%)830
Single Ball (2 balls total)415

My workflow was:

1.Mix water with salt
2.Pour half of flour in water Ė mix until combined Ė allow to sit for 20 mins.
3.Turn kitchen aid on 1 and slowly add more flour and add Instant yeast.
4.Once all of the flour was added I added the oil, and sugar and continued mixing. Total mix time was about 5 minutes. I then hand kneaded for 30 seconds and formed the dough balls as seen in reply #47.
Chronic mole,

Looking at the quoted material, I have a few suggestions to offer.

Starting with the flour, the Robin Hood all purpose flour that you used has a protein content of 12%:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13365.msg132309#msg132309

Because you are using an all purpose flour, even though Canadian flours tend to have higher protein values than comparable U.S., flours, most such flours have a typical rated absorption value of around 60%. Also, the 2% oil that you are using also has a wetting effect on the dough. So, the combined wetting effect is 63% + 2% = 65%. Often, as a starting point, the late Tom Lehmann would suggest that one use a combined oil and water percent that is equal to the rated absorption value of the flour, and thereafter adjust the hydration by 2% amounts if needed. So, I suggest that you reduce the hydration of your dough to around 60%, but leave the oil percent alone. The temperature of the water should be selected to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 70F.

I also suggest that you combine the flour, IDY and sugar, but still dissolve the salt in the formula water. I would also skip the 20 minute step. The oil should continue to be added after the dough pulls away from sides of the mixer bowl during kneading. Because I feel that a roughly 5 minute knead time may be on the low side, you might want to take a look at one of Tom's videos linked below to get a better feel for the total amount of kneading.

To help you get more practice in handling the dough, I suggest that you use a larger dough ball weight, using a larger thickness factor of 0.10. That is a value that I have used for years, in a home setting. On this basis, the dough ball for a 15" pizza size would be 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.10 = 17.67 ounces, or 17.67 x 28.35 = 501 grams. That number can safely be rounded to 500 grams.

Making the above changes should give you a dough that is easier to handle than the dough made from the recipe you posted. If that turns out to be true, you can always gradually reduce the dough ball weight over time to the point where you feel most comfortable.

As for when you use the dough when it comes out of the refrigerator, you should not let it warm up TO room temperature. It should be allowed to warm up AT room temperature and until the inner temperature of the dough is around 60F, or maybe a bit warmer. Typically, that is about 1.5-2 hours but may be even sooner if your room temperature is above average.

Normally I suggest that changes be made one at a time so as to be able to see and assess the effects of each change. But, in your case, you might try the changes I suggested and hope that we can assess your overall results and be able to offer other suggestions.

Here is the video I mentioned above:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSC11vo5Nmo&t=2s

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 02:19:06 PM
Probably my best attempt so far. Dough handled really well - I need to invest in a proper peel though - Iíve been basically sliding it into the oven off a piece of floured cardboard which resulted in sauce all over the crust.


For the life of me, though - I canít seem to get my crust to be soft and airy and brown - itís always hard- how do I fix this . This was a 24 hour ferment.

Flour(100%)270.84
Water(60%)162.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)1.08
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%)4.74
Olive Oil (2%)5.42
Sugar (2%)5.42
Total (166.15%)450
Single Ball (1 balls total)450

Mix protocol -
1. Add salt and sugar to water and stir in bowl
2 add all of the flour and idy - mix 2 mins on stir
3. Incorporate oil and mix 2 more mins  on stir
4. Mix 3 mins on stir and hand knead for 1 min.
5 . Ball dough and place in lightly oiled bowl - cold ferment for 26 hours.
6. Bring to room temperature for 40 mins ( works due to my climate).
7. Stretch and dress with cheese sauce and pepperoni.
8. Slide on stone that had been pre hearing at 550 for 1.5 hours at bottom rack for 6 mins then finish on top rack with broiler on for 3 mins.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2021, 02:43:55 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us the size of the pizza you made?

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 02:56:44 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us the size of the pizza you made?

Peter

it was 15"
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 09, 2021, 03:38:43 PM
For the life of me, though - I canít seem to get my crust to be soft and airy and brown - itís always hard- how do I fix this . This was a 24 hour ferment.

Based on my experience, fermentation is the primary contributor to tenderness. There is a direct relationship between length of the fermentation and tenderness of the end-product. And the effect is obvious. Using my recipe, a same-day dough is extremely tough and 1-dimensional in flavor. 24-hours is better, but still very chewy and flavorless. 48-hours is better, but still not quite where I want it. After 72-hours, fermentation starts to make a real impression. And after 4 days, the end-product becomes very good, with fermentations in excess being exceptional.

24 hours isn't very long for a cold fermentation. Of course the amount of time your dough can tolerate fermentation is dependent on the starting quantity of yeast. The digestive enzymes in the dough need time to do their work. Too much starting yeast will end up inflating the dough before enzymes and other metabolic agents have enough time to digest the flour. Thus, choosing a starting quantity of yeast is almost synonymous with balancing the desired length of the fermentation. Have you ever eaten cooked dough that has not been allowed to ferment? It's tough, dense, and will give you a stomach ache. This is why emergency doughs have so much yeast and why they taste like crap. Having said all that, I think the amount of yeast you are using is fine. I think you could definitely push the fermentation out to 72-hours, if not longer. Also very important is ensuring that you are working with a dough that is well-proofed before stretching and taking care to not push out too much air.

Hydration and heat also make a big impact. Pizza dough cooks more efficiently with a higher hydration. And the faster the heat is applied to the dough, the more ovenspring you will get. Stones are ok, but steels are much better. Seriously, they make a big difference and they do not get enough credit. One of the mistakes I see newcomers make all the time is focusing too much on the minor stuff. Like oven rack placement, protein content, etc...meanwhile ignoring the major points like hydration, fermentation, and cooking with the right equipment. For me when I was a new pizza baker, failing on these points came down to being afraid of working with high hydration doughs, not wanting to spend the money on a steel, and being too impatient to ferment the dough long enough. In my opinion, those three simple thingsólong fermentation, high hydration, and sudden heat using steelógive us the best shot at the desired outcome in the woefully-inadequate home oven that most of us are working with.

Oh, and regarding browning...

Fermentation will help slightly with that also. Not much though. Many accomplished pizzaiolos recommend using a browning agent such as diastatic malt powder. Again, the home oven is just inadequate. However, you should get a fair bit of browning if you're using a broiler. It looks like you have quite a bit of flour left on the cornice. Try minimizing the amount of flour on the cornice as much as you can without sacrificing your dough's mobility, and that should help. Still dissatisfied? Brush the cornice lightly with olive oil before the bake.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2021, 03:45:02 PM
Chronic mole,

Offhand, I do not see anything wrong with your recipe, and the thickness factor based on your pizza size of 15" comes to [(450/28.35)]/[(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08982, which is fine for a NY style pizza. Normally, sugar is not needed for a dough that is to cold ferment for less than two days or so but it does help improve crust coloration in a typical home oven setting, as Tom Lehmann so noted in his NY style dough recipe at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

If you still want a 24-hour dough what you might want to try is to increase the amount of IDY to about 0.6-0.7%, with the hope that it leads to a faster and softer fermenting dough and an increased oven spring. In your case, you might also want to play around with the time the dough spends at room temperature after removing it from the refrigerator. I also think that I would lower the oven temperature to around 500F to let the pizza bake more slowly and longer and thereby get more crust coloration. I have used the broiler from time to time but usually it is for flours that are unmalted, such as 00 flours.

My practice when using a stone is to place the stone on the lowest oven rack of my home electric oven and bake the pizza on the stone until the bottom crust turns brown. I then move the pizza up to the top oven rack position to get more top heat and finish cooking the cheese and toppings while also increasing the browning of the top crust. The broiler could also be used but it might cook the cheese and toppings before providing more color to the crust. 

Some time ago, I created a post on baking pizzas in a standard home oven. I don't recall if I ever cited it to you, but it is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You will also note that I edit Reply 45 from time to time as I learn of other successful ways of baking pizzas in a home oven, or something equivalent.

Marrying a recipe to a given oven is a challenge that we all face, and none of us is spared that experience.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 03:57:25 PM
Based on my experience, fermentation is the primary contributor to tenderness. There is a direct relationship between length of the fermentation and tenderness of the end-product. And the effect is obvious. Using my recipe, a same-day dough is extremely tough and 1-dimensional in flavor. 24-hours is better, but still very chewy and flavorless. 48-hours is better, but still not quite where I want it. After 72-hours, fermentation starts to make a real impression. And after 4 days, the end-product becomes very good, with fermentations in excess being exceptional.

24 hours isn't very long for a cold fermentation. Of course the amount of time your dough can tolerate fermentation is dependent on the starting quantity of yeast. The digestive enzymes in the dough need time to do their work. Too much starting yeast will end up inflating the dough before enzymes and other metabolic agents have enough time to digest the flour. Thus, choosing a starting quantity of yeast is almost synonymous with balancing the desired length of the fermentation. Have you ever eaten cooked dough that has not been allowed to ferment? It's tough, dense, and will give you a stomach ache. This is why emergency doughs have so much yeast and why they taste like crap. Having said all that, I think the amount of yeast you are using is fine. I think you could definitely push the fermentation out to 72-hours, if not longer. Also very important is ensuring that you are working with a dough that is well-proofed before stretching and taking care to not push out too much air.

Hydration and heat also make a big impact. Pizza dough cooks more efficiently with a higher hydration. And the faster the heat is applied to the dough, the more ovenspring you will get. Stones are ok, but steels are much better. Seriously, they make a big difference and they do not get enough credit. One of the mistakes I see newcomers make all the time is focusing too much on the minor stuff. Like oven rack placement, protein content, etc...meanwhile ignoring the major points like hydration, fermentation, and cooking with the right equipment. For me when I was a new pizza baker, failing on these points came down to being afraid of working with high hydration doughs, not wanting to spend the money on a steel, and being too impatient to ferment the dough long enough. In my opinion, those three simple thingsólong fermentation, high hydration, and sudden heat using steelógive us the best shot at the desired outcome in the woefully-inadequate home oven that most of us are working with.

Oh, and regarding browning...

Fermentation will help slightly with that also. Not much though. Many accomplished pizzaiolos recommend using a browning agent such as diastatic malt powder. Again, the home oven is just inadequate. However, you should get a fair bit of browning if you're using a broiler. It looks like you have quite a bit of flour left on the cornice. Try minimizing the amount of flour on the cornice as much as you can without sacrificing your dough's mobility, and that should help. Still dissatisfied? Brush the cornice lightly with olive oil before the bake.

As always, thank you for your insight .

Iím not sure if my alll purpose flour can handle a 72 hour ferment - the dough was already full of Ďair pocketsí? At the bottom and to the side after 20 hours.

1. Based on my recipe do you think Iím using the right amount of yeast to sustain a 72hr ferment?
2. Working with high hydration dough is a bit intimidating - even at 63% the dough was so soft and tough to handle - any advice in this regard ?
3. Overall how would you tweak my dough recipe ( including hydration).
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 04:00:00 PM
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 04:03:21 PM
Chronic mole,

Offhand, I do not see anything wrong with your recipe, and the thickness factor based on your pizza size of 15" comes to [(450/28.35)]/[(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08982, which is fine for a NY style pizza. Normally, sugar is not needed for a dough that is to cold ferment for less than two days or so but it does help improve crust coloration in a typical home oven setting, as Tom Lehmann so noted in his NY style dough recipe at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

If you still want a 24-hour dough what you might want to try is to increase the amount of IDY to about 0.6-0.7%, with the hope that it leads to a faster and softer fermenting dough and an increased oven spring. In your case, you might also want to play around with the time the dough spends at room temperature after removing it from the refrigerator. I also think that I would lower the oven temperature to around 500F to let the pizza bake more slowly and longer and thereby get more crust coloration. I have used the broiler from time to time but usually it is for flours that are unmalted, such as 00 flours.

My practice when using a stone is to place the stone on the lowest oven rack of my home electric oven and bake the pizza on the stone until the bottom crust turns brown. I then move the pizza up to the top oven rack position to get more top heat and finish cooking the cheese and toppings while also increasing the browning of the top crust. The broiler could also be used but it might cook the cheese and toppings before providing more color to the crust. 

Some time ago, I created a post on baking pizzas in a standard home oven. I don't recall if I ever cited it to you, but it is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You will also note that I edit Reply 45 from time to time as I learn of other successful ways of baking pizzas in a home oven, or something equivalent.

Marrying a recipe to a given oven is a challenge that we all face, and none of us is spared that experience.

Peter

Thank you, Peter.

Originally I did not intend to make this a 24 hr dough but when I looked at the dough I was afraid if I left it for longer the dough would over ferment and turn out like my previous effort. I saw a post somewhere here that when you look at the dough from the bottom of the translucent Rubbermaid and there are a lot of ďholesĒ at the bottom and coming up on the side - the dough  probably should be used. Am I wrong ?

I will take your advice as always and read the attached links.
If I left
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on May 09, 2021, 04:13:54 PM
Chronic mole,

It is possible that in your case the heat of the Bahamas is speeding things up. As member TurkeyOnRye mentioned, the amount of yeast you used should have allowed for a much longer fermentation period. But there are a couple of things that you might have done to improve your dough's performance. First, you should use water cold enough to achieve a finished dough temperature after kneading of around 70 degrees F, and maybe even a bit cooler because of your elevated Bahamas temperature. Second, when you place your dough ball in the refrigerator, leave the top of the container uncovered for about a couple of hours, to allow the dough to cool faster. You can then replace the cover. These measures, along with the amount of yeast and other temperatures (such as the temperature of the dough ball at the time of using to make a pizza), generally dictate the final results.

Maybe you followed the above advice but I don't recall seeing it in your posts.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 09, 2021, 04:58:25 PM
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour

I have baked with this flour many times before and have had good results. In fact, in 2016 I inquired with customer service to see if I could get a more exact answer to what the protein content of their flour is. Here is their response:

Thank you for contacting Bobís Red Mill.

Our Artisan Bread Flour contains 12.5-15.00% protein.

Feel free to contact us with any additional questions.

Have a wonderful day!


Amber Olson
Customer Service
Bobís Red Mill Natural Foods
1-800-349-2173
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Anton1 on May 09, 2021, 06:12:47 PM
Chronic Mole

Have you considered the quality of the water used?

Which island are you on?

Reading this report https://www.sam.usace.army.mil/Portals/46/docs/military/engineering/docs/WRA/Bahamas/BAHAMAS1WRA.pdf may be of help.

Anton1
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 09, 2021, 07:09:39 PM
I have baked with this flour many times before and have had good results. In fact, in 2016 I inquired with customer service to see if I could get a more exact answer to what the protein content of their flour is. Here is their response:

Thank you for contacting Bobís Red Mill.

Our Artisan Bread Flour contains 12.5-15.00% protein.

Feel free to contact us with any additional questions.

Have a wonderful day!


Amber Olson
Customer Service
Bobís Red Mill Natural Foods
1-800-349-2173


Thanks for this! I would also appreciate your responses to the questions I posed to you above.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 09, 2021, 09:54:38 PM
Thanks for this! I would also appreciate your responses to the questions I posed to you above.

Ah! Good thing you said something. I overlooked that post.

1. Based on my recipe do you think Iím using the right amount of yeast to sustain a 72hr ferment?

I use half the quantity of yeast that you are using in my recipe and I know that my recipe will stretch out to 8 days or more in the fridge. So I would be willing to bet that you could do 3 days. Only one way to find out though.

2. Working with high hydration dough is a bit intimidating - even at 63% the dough was so soft and tough to handle - any advice in this regard ?

High hydration doughs require a different shaping philosophy than low hydration doughs. Use the stickiness to your advantage. After mixing my dough, I avoid using bench flour to maintain the established hydration level and to make it possible to do stretch-and-folds on the counter. You can dampen your fingers with cold water to prevent the dough from sticking so much to your fingers. A bench scraper is a very handy tool for this job.

Take a look at the "Bench kneading" chapter of this video. He is making bread dough here, but many of the principles are the same. He shows a few stretch-and-folds followed by balling on the countertop, all without using additional flour.   


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NMglhwp2lNs&t=860s

3. Overall how would you tweak my dough recipe ( including hydration).

I wouldn't tweak the recipe until I saw how it performs with longer fermentations. A good way to experiment with this is to make several doughs and bake one pizza from that batch every day to observe how it changes with age. I would also put a thermometer inside my fridge and watch the temperature for a few days to see how cool it is. My fridge runs about 40F/4.4C.

As always, thank you for your insight .

Iím not sure if my alll purpose flour can handle a 72 hour ferment - the dough was already full of Ďair pocketsí? At the bottom and to the side after 20 hours.

In general, air pockets are a good thing. I would be worried if they weren't developing. It's hard to know to what extent they are developing simply be describing it with words though. I try to aim for a near-doubling in size while in the fridge, though the dough is perfectly usable even before that. Here are some pictures of one of my doughs at day 6 in the fridge using 0.18% yeast.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 23, 2021, 06:57:47 PM
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour

I used this flour and increased hydration to 63%. Itís been cold fermenting for 32 hours so far - I was aiming for 72... but based on the open structures on the bottom of the dough Iíve read that this dough is already over fermented ? In this case should I use it ASAP?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 23, 2021, 10:25:25 PM
I used this flour and increased hydration to 63%. Itís been cold fermenting for 32 hours so far - I was aiming for 72... but based on the open structures on the bottom of the dough Iíve read that this dough is already over fermented ? In this case should I use it ASAP?
There's no reason I can see just looking at that dough in the container to think that it's overproofed. Large air pockets are not a sign of overfermentation. It's when a dough ball lays more flat and feels slack and mushy that you might safely come to that conclusion. But I'm personally not a big fan of storing dough balls in containers for that very reason; you can't tell for sure looking at the dough from outside the container if it might be overproofed as well as you can if it's laying flat on a plate or a tray and covered with plastic wrap. In a small container, it doesn't have much room to spread out laterally. But that's just my preference. Others will probably disagree.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 24, 2021, 10:47:03 PM
So I made a YouTube video with me opening up my most recent dough ball - it was about 67 hydration so a little delicate. Iíd appreciate some tips on my technique and for someone to explain why my dough looked so thin in parts when I was knuckle stretching and subsequent to.

https://youtu.be/-2MNFkFvlaQ
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 25, 2021, 09:25:36 AM
So I made a YouTube video with me opening up my most recent dough ball - it was about 67 hydration so a little delicate. Iíd appreciate some tips on my technique and for someone to explain why my dough looked so thin in parts when I was knuckle stretching and subsequent to.

https://youtu.be/-2MNFkFvlaQ
Others here might disagree with me, but I would say that 67% hydration is quite high for NY style. A dough that wet is going to be a bit tricky to handle no matter what, but especially if you're using a flour with much less than 14% protein content, although a good healthy fermentation to build up solid gluten strength will help. I'm not sure of your overall fermentation regimen, but I gather that you're doing CF, or at least letting your dough stay a while in the fridge before using it.  If you're determined to stay in that hydration range, I'd say just make sure you're using flour with a high protein content, and be as gentle as you can when you handle the dough. My recommendation would be to drop your hydration to more like 57%-60% if you're looking to make your dough easier to handle, and that's pretty standard for NY style. Some more recent NY pizzaiolo have been pushing the hydration range upwards, and that's an option you can choose, but just be aware that there's a reason why the standard rate is historically lower.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 25, 2021, 10:10:42 AM
Others here might disagree with me, but I would say that 67% hydration is quite high for NY style. A dough that wet is going to be a bit tricky to handle no matter what, but especially if you're using a flour with much less than 14% protein content, although a good healthy fermentation to build up solid gluten strength will help. I'm not sure of your overall fermentation regimen, but I gather that you're doing CF, or at least letting your dough stay a while in the fridge before using it.  If you're determined to stay in that hydration range, I'd say just make sure you're using flour with a high protein content, and be as gentle as you can when you handle the dough. My recommendation would be to drop your hydration to more like 57%-60% if you're looking to make your dough easier to handle, and that's pretty standard for NY style. Some more recent NY pizzaiolo have been pushing the hydration range upwards, and that's an option you can choose, but just be aware that there's a reason why the standard rate is historically lower.

I appreciate your wise counsel but using a higher hydration was the first time I got the crust to brown - now this could be because I switched to a better quality flour - Bobs Artisan Flour and/ or because I cold fermented for two days.
Any thoughts on why my dough was thin in the middle - Iíd appreciate if you  look at my vid at time stamp 2:11 :2:25
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on May 25, 2021, 10:11:42 AM
Pic of the first pizza Iím proud to say I made.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 25, 2021, 12:35:27 PM
I appreciate your wise counsel but using a higher hydration was the first time I got the crust to brown - now this could be because I switched to a better quality flour - Bobs Artisan Flour and/ or because I cold fermented for two days.
Any thoughts on why my dough was thin in the middle - Iíd appreciate if you  look at my vid at time stamp 2:11 :2:25
I don't think the hydration rate had anything to do with the browning. In fact, if anything, I think lower hydration rates promote browning better because the less moisture there is in the dough, the faster it will evaporate and leave a dryer crust which is more susceptible to darken from heat. Your choice of flour is excellent; my favorite of all the ones available at retail stores.
 As far as why your dough was that thin in the center, it's hard to know for sure just from watching your video. I think it's very possible that you're simply stretching it out further than the gluten strength will allow with that high a hydration rate. I've made bread with that flour at a hydration rate of 68% and was very happy with it. 67% is just a bit high for pizza dough, I think; it's pretty much straddling the line between pizza dough and bread dough. It is possible to make pizza dough at that hydration level, but I wouldn't expect to be able to stretch it out very thinly. More of a medium thinness would be a more realistic goal. Again, dropping your hydration level significantly would help tremendously to achieve your goal, I think. It's just far easier to work with dough in the 58% to 62% hydration range. However, having said all that, I must admit that I have made Jim Lahey's no-knead dough recipe at 70% hydration ( @3% salt) that was not too difficult to work with. Some people sneer at the no-knead method, and I won't say I've made my favorite pizza crusts with it, but it is something to consider doing if you really prefer working at higher hydration levels.
 Aside from all that, dough handling technique is extremely important in determining your final results. That's something that takes time to perfect, and it's not easy to instruct one on how to get better at it with just words. If I were you, I'd hop on YouTube and look up dough handling tutorials and try some different methods. Keep at it until you're where you want to be. It takes a fair amount of time and practice, but you'll get there. Good luck.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 25, 2021, 03:57:00 PM
Pic of the first pizza Iím proud to say I made.

Very nice job.

High hydration doughs are very extensible and sensitive to gravity stretches like you were doing on your knuckles. If the hydration is much higher than 60%, I would recommend bench stretching only. New York pizzerias have very low hydrations and this is why they are able to toss them and knuckle stretch them. This is to make the dough resilient in a commercial setting only. Keeping the hydration high allows the dough to bake more efficiently and results in a more tender and aerated crust. It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: pvura on May 25, 2021, 07:22:09 PM
It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.

Could you please expand on your browning logic? I'm genuinely curious about the relationship between hydration and browning and I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

I have always thought about the relationship between hydration and browning as such:

Higher hydration --> Proportionally more water --> Water doesn't brown with heat
Lower hydration --> Proportionally more flour --> Flour browns with heat

I realize that this might sound like a silly and quite stupid logic but I've actually heard similar reasons from many other experienced pizza makers.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 25, 2021, 08:31:55 PM
Very nice job.

Keeping the hydration high allows the dough to bake more efficiently and results in a more tender and aerated crust. It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.
Not to sound rude, but I think what youíre saying here needs quite a bit of clarification, and I donít think that itís always true. Depends on what you mean by Ďefficiencyí and what kind of browning youíre after. Anybody making pizzas in a regular indoor home oven is going to have a much harder time producing a nicely aerated crust with high hydration unless theyíre going for more for a Sicilian style pie, and even then, it helps a lot to par bake the crust first and then top it and put it back in the oven. And as far as the browning is concerned, Iím not at all sure what you mean by the second statement. what exactly are you referring to when youíre relating the structure of the dough to the browning? I guess I could understand what you mean if you were talking about something like a Neapolitan pizza, where the outer rim expands a lot and gives a lot of surface area for leoparding, but with New York style pizza, youíre typically not going to have a huge outer crust and as long as youíre cooking long enough and at a high enough temperature, thereís no reason why you shouldnít be getting decent browning.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 25, 2021, 09:01:17 PM
Could you please expand on your browning logic? I'm genuinely curious about the relationship between hydration and browning and I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

I have always thought about the relationship between hydration and browning as such:

Higher hydration --> Proportionally more water --> Water doesn't brown with heat
Lower hydration --> Proportionally more flour --> Flour browns with heat

I realize that this might sound like a silly and quite stupid logic but I've actually heard similar reasons from many other experienced pizza makers.

Not to sound rude, but I think what youíre saying here needs quite a bit of clarification, and I donít think that itís always true. Depends on what you mean by Ďefficiencyí and what kind of browning youíre after. Anybody making pizzas in a regular indoor home oven is going to have a much harder time producing a nicely aerated crust with high hydration unless theyíre going for more for a Sicilian style pie, and even then, it helps a lot to par bake the crust first and then top it and put it back in the oven. And as far as the browning is concerned, Iím not at all sure what you mean by the second statement. what exactly are you referring to when youíre relating the structure of the dough to the browning? I guess I could understand what you mean if you were talking about something like a Neapolitan pizza, where the outer rim expands a lot and gives a lot of surface area for leoparding, but with New York style pizza, youíre typically not going to have a huge outer crust and as long as youíre cooking long enough and at a high enough temperature, thereís no reason why you shouldnít be getting decent browning.

When the hydration is high, there is greater expansion of the dough, creating a greater surface area with a less dense interior. The result is an aerated dough that is more sensitive to heat. Consider holding a sheet of construction paper up to a flame vs a piece of lens paper. The reason high hydration doughs expand better is because at 212 degrees F, water vaporizes and expands. When water is trapped inside dough, it creates air pockets when exposed to heat that expand the surface area of the dough, i.e. oven spring. It's one of many attributes that contribute to browning.

Take a look at this video of a General Mills rep that has been widely shared around this forum. He discusses hydration and "efficiency" of baking. In the video, he recommends 60% hydration for home bakers, but for more adventurous home bakers, you can certainly push the hydration up to 70% or more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0iCONXe2oU
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 25, 2021, 11:10:02 PM


Take a look at this video of a General Mills rep that has been widely shared around this forum. He discusses hydration and "efficiency" of baking. In the video, he recommends 60% hydration for home bakers, but for more adventurous home bakers, you can certainly push the hydration up to 70% or more.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0iCONXe2oU
Some of the things heís saying makes sense to me, but then there are others where I think heís making broad generalizations that donít really hold up. And Iíve seen at least one other video of him speaking where he also said some things I found questionable. If what he was saying about high hydration always creating crispy crust was true, then this would hold true for Neapolitan pizzas as well, and this is absolutely not the case. Those kinds of pizzas are anything but crispy.
And as I said before, thereís a reason why New York style pizza has historically always been made with a lower hydration dough. The kind of aeration heís talking about in this video isnít really appropriate for that style, I donít think.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 26, 2021, 12:05:20 AM
Some of the things heís saying makes sense to me, but then there are others where I think heís making broad generalizations that donít really hold up. And Iíve seen at least one other video of him speaking where he also said some things I found questionable. If what he was saying about high hydration always creating crispy crust was true, then this would hold true for Neapolitan pizzas as well, and this is absolutely not the case. Those kinds of pizzas are anything but crispy.
And as I said before, thereís a reason why New York style pizza has historically always been made with a lower hydration dough. The kind of aeration heís talking about in this video isnít really appropriate for that style, I donít think.

I don't agree with everything he says either, but for the most part, what he says is true.

AVPN rules require that Neapolitan pizza be between 55-62% hydration, which is not very high. In any case, there are many other factors that affect crispiness and tenderness other than hydration. However, higher hydration will produce a crust with a more tender aerated interior and a crispier exterior. Of course nothing is absolute, but I have experimented with doughs up to 80% hydration, and for the most part, the generality holds up. There is a tipping point (somewhere in the 70s range) where increases in hydration make the exterior less crisp. The reason I encouraged Chronic Mole to maintain a high hydration is because over the last several weeks, he has expressed interest in obtaining a more crisp, aerated, and tender crust. Whether or not that is in keeping with the New York style I think is beside the point. Not everyone's goal is to produce an archetypal style. Many of us simply post in the forums that most closely represent our intended outcome, even if it isn't a great match.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 26, 2021, 12:40:58 AM
I don't agree with everything he says either, but for the most part, what he says is true.

AVPN rules require that Neapolitan pizza be between 55-62% hydration, which is not very high. In any case, there are many other factors that affect crispiness and tenderness other than hydration. However, higher hydration will produce a crust with a more tender aerated interior and a crispier exterior. Of course nothing is absolute, but I have experimented with doughs up to 80% hydration, and for the most part, the generality holds up. There is a tipping point (somewhere in the 70s range) where increases in hydration make the exterior less crisp. The reason I encouraged Chronic Mole to maintain a high hydration is because over the last several weeks, he has expressed interest in obtaining a more crisp, aerated, and tender crust. Whether or not that is in keeping with the New York style I think is beside the point. Not everyone's goal is to produce an archetypal style. Many of us simply post in the forums that most closely represent our intended outcome, even if it isn't a great match.
Fair enough. My point isnít that he should be sticking to an archetypal New York style dough formulation per se, or that a higher level of hydration is inherently antiithetical to the goals of this style necessarily. I simply take issue with the idea that a lower hydration dough (and itís subsequent bake)  is somehow Ďinefficientí. If the whole idea of mixing flour with water and throwing that mixture into an oven was simply to force that water to evaporate and give us a finished crust  with a maximum level of aeration, I would agree. But this is not the case. Tim Huff seems to say in the video that a firm dough is somehow undesirable, but nothing could be further from the truth as far as Iím concerned- although, because he's speaking in such a broad sense, itís difficult to discern exactly how he means this. But  this does seem to express a certain disapproval of that body style, either by default or by design on his part . Itís not a design or execution flaw to have a crust with a certain amount of firmness. Thatís the whole idea. We want a certain amount of firmness and chewiness in the finish crust because thatís what helps the crust  hold itís shape and hold up the toppings and keep it from being too soft and flimsy. Keeping the hydration level a bit on the low end and cooking at a temperature thatís not too high is the only way to achieve this effect as far as I know.
Another point I had hoped to make clear, and I think I did, is that the dough  handling techniques employed are also very important in determining the character of the finished crust. Like you said, there are numerous factors that determine what kind of pizza you get at the end of the baking process. It is theoretically possible to make a New York style pizza with a higher hydration dough , but I think that, especially for someone relatively new to the style, or even just new to handling dough by hand in general, it makes more sense to start at the low end of the hydration range to establish a baseline for the physical sensation of handling that dough, and for locking in the muscle memory required to properly execute the techniques necessary to achieve the desired crust. Starting at the high end of the hydration range doesnít really help as much in this regard, in my opinion.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 26, 2021, 01:23:19 PM
Fair enough. My point isnít that he should be sticking to an archetypal New York style dough formulation per se, or that a higher level of hydration is inherently antiithetical to the goals of this style necessarily. I simply take issue with the idea that a lower hydration dough (and itís subsequent bake)  is somehow Ďinefficientí. If the whole idea of mixing flour with water and throwing that mixture into an oven was simply to force that water to evaporate and give us a finished crust  with a maximum level of aeration, I would agree. But this is not the case. Tim Huff seems to say in the video that a firm dough is somehow undesirable, but nothing could be further from the truth as far as Iím concerned- although, because he speaking in such a broad sense, itís difficult to discern exactly how he means by this. But  this does seem to express a certain disapproval of that body style, either by default or by design on his part . Itís not a design or execution flaw to have a crust with a certain amount of firmness. Thatís the whole idea. We want a certain amount of firmness and chewiness in the finish crust because thatís what helps the crust  hold itís shape and hold up the toppings and keep it from being too soft and flimsy. Keeping the hydration level a bit on the low end and cooking at a temperature thatís not too high is the only way to achieve this effect as far as I know.
Another point I had hoped to make clear, and I think I did, is that the dough  handling techniques employed are also very important in determining the character of the finished crust. Like you said, there are numerous factors that determine what kind of pizza you get at the end of the baking process. It is theoretically possible to make a New York style pizza with a higher hydration dough , but I think that, especially for someone relatively new to the style, or even just new to handling dough by hand in general, it makes more sense to start at the low end of the hydration range to establish a baseline for the physical sensation of handling that dough, and for locking in the muscle memory required to properly execute the techniques necessary to achieve the desired crust. Starting at the high end of the hydration range doesnít really help as much in this regard, in my opinion.

By "efficiency", we're referring to how well heat is conducted from the exterior to the interior of the dough. I think it's a suitable term to describe the phenomenon. I can see why you've taken offense though. There are a few pretentious circles of pizza makers that regard lower hydration doughs as inherently inferior, partly because everyone inevitably learns using the lower hydration levels and the high hydration techniques are relatively unfamiliar to most. Having said that, I don't think high hydration doughs are difficult to work with. In fact, they're easier to work with in many respects. It's not exactly an esoteric art that takes years of practice. By learning a few key principles, even beginners can learn fairly quickly. What frustrated me during my learning period was that nobody would tell me all the things that I try to tell beginners today. Lots of beginners desire to achieve great oven spring, a brown exterior, and a tender interior. Back then I wish someone had told me that about 90% of those properties can be boiled down to high heat, high hydration, and generous fermentation.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2021, 02:15:35 PM
From time to time over the years, I have cited the work of Tom Lehmann and his related posts on the forum. The issue of hydration, along with other factors, such as degree of crust crispiness and chewiness and tenderness, and also the use of oil in the dough, were covered by Tom both here on the forum and originally at the PMQ Think Tank. Here are some of my posts where I tried to convey Tom's views.

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52888.msg532503;topicseen#msg532503

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29378.msg294901#msg294901

Reply 96 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74667.html#msg74667

Reply 980 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562

Some of the links to the PMQ Think Tank no longer work due to changes that PMQ made to the Think Tank but maybe I can find the original post in which Tom referenced the term Physics 101.

My own view is that the terms crispy, chewy, tender, and other such terms, are hard to nail down with definitions that everyone can accept. They will vary from one person to another.  I also think that professionals like Tim Huff are prone to the same problem, and maybe even more so because of a greater emphasis on breads rather than pizzas. And the pizzas can come in so many different forms and styles. This is one of the reasons that I tried to guide members with the following excerpt from Reply 8 cited above:

Sometimes, using a lower than normal bake temperature and a greater than normal bake time can lead to a crispier bottom crust but the hydration has to be right. Also, some flours may be better than others. For example, you might have a hard time getting a crispy crust if the flour is low in protein, such as cake flour or pastry flour. A bread flour or high gluten flour might be better but, again, the hydration value has to be right. Usually one has to find the right balance between the flour, its hydration, the bake temperature and the bake time. You also don't want to roll the skin out by a machine, which compresses the skin and makes it dense and lets the bottom heat pass through the skin too fast. You want porosity.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on May 26, 2021, 02:36:13 PM
After my last post, I did a search at the PMQ Thin Tank and found a thread in which Tom used the expression Physics 101 in the context of a pizza crust:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/2-dough-questions/10102/4

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: TurkeyOnRye on May 26, 2021, 04:42:09 PM
My own view is that the terms crispy, chewy, tender, and other such terms, are hard to nail down with definitions that everyone can accept. They will vary from one person to another.  I also think that professionals like Tim Huff are prone to the same problem, and maybe even more so because of a greater emphasis on breads rather than pizzas. And the pizzas can come in so many different forms and styles.

I agree with this to a point. However, I think it is unhelpful to fixate on nuance in the process of guiding beginners because it can be overwhelming and often counterproductive. I think it's important to provide clear guidance and to keep things nice and simple. I think veterans who find themselves in a position of being a teacher find this very difficult to do because in their view (which is not wrong), there are no absolutes and every variable interacts with each and every other variable. As a result, they are often unable to provide straight-forward answers. Beginners will pick up the nuances on their own and discover what the exceptions to the rules are as they progress, so providing them with answers in simple terms is not ultimately a problem. Still, I don't think terms such as "crisp" and "tender" are all that difficult to find consensus with among others. Regarding my discussion with RHawthorne, I believe our discussion was more of a disagreement on what the end-goal should be rather than disagreement about definition.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on May 26, 2021, 10:32:06 PM
Regarding my discussion with RHawthorne, I believe our discussion was more of a disagreement on what the end-goal should be rather than disagreement about definition.
Sorry in advance if I'm sounding in any way long winded or obnoxious. I just take this stuff very seriously.
 I don't know that we're disagreeing all that much, if we are at all.
  My issue with the use of the term 'efficiency' in as much as it relates to the making of pizza is not so much that it's used in a condescending way, but rather that I think that sometimes it's used in the wrong way . I understand that it has it's place when we're talking about the long view of large scale production goals, and repeatability and such, but from where I'm standing (and I understand that this might not necessarily make sense to some), I'm more concerned with what I would call design efficiency. By that, I mean the efficiency (for lack of better term) of the process of translating a desired product, with all of it's pertinent characteristics, from an idea to a finished product. And this, to my line of thinking in this case, often entails leaving behind what might be considered 'money on the table' from a more 'by the numbers' approach. I could ramble endlessly about this and other things pizza related, but I don't want to bore you to death.
 But if you're still reading this- and thanks if you are- I will say that we aren't necessarily on the same page when it comes to this particular pizza style's desired characteristics. The main point of the conversation has been that of crispiness in the finished product, which is absolutely a valid pursuit on it's own, but I don't really think that that's what NY pizza is all about. I think it's more about the overall balance of chewiness to crispiness,with the chewiness as it's more defining characteristic. It can be a bit crispy around the edges, and that can be a big part of the package, but overall, it's chewier than it is crispy. It can crack a bit on the fold on the cornicione, but it shouldn't be like a cracker.
 Now, to circle back around to the topic of hydration, it's absolutely critical in hitting your target, but I'm not at all sold on the idea that going for maximum hydration will delivered the best results, if that's what you're saying. I think the key to this body style is really in attenuating the release of the moisture in the dough, either by baking at a lower temp for a longer time, or by using some percentage of oil in the mix to prevent the moisture from evaporating too quickly and leaving behind a dried out and burnt crust, or a combination of both of techniques...and probably still others I'm not fully educated on.
 Anyway, hopefully I haven't come across as obnoxious in any way, and thanks for reading this if you did. Respond or don't. I'll take no offense at all if you tune me out.
 
 
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: amolapizza on June 06, 2021, 12:11:19 PM
To me the dough looks very delicate, it probably isn't suited to a knuckle stretch.

One trick is to leave a bulge of dough in the middle, once you start stretching the edges the surface inside the rim will expand, and the dough to fill it has to come from somewhere, and it won't come from the rim.

I think I'd concur with some of the others and say drop the hydration a bit, at least for now while you're learning..
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 16, 2021, 06:37:45 PM
I went to NY for four days and tried some of the famous NY pizza spots talked about here - I understand what NY pizza should taste like and will strive more towards that goal. I also made the following observations:

1. IMO - Scarrs and Paulie Gee's is overrated. I know Paulie Gee himself is beloved on the forum but I was not impressed.

2. Prince St. was really good - the slice and the squares.

3. John's of Bleecker Street was good but not the best pizza I've ever had ( I blame Portnoy for setting my expectations too high).

4. I regret not going to Mama's Too.

4. The best pizza place I've ever been to remains Black Sheep in Minnesota.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: psedillo on June 16, 2021, 07:32:12 PM
I went to NY for four days and tried some of the famous NY pizza spots talked about here - I understand what NY pizza should taste like and will strive more towards that goal. I also made the following observations:

3. John's of Bleecker Street was good but not the best pizza I've ever had ( I blame Portnoy for setting my expectations too high).

Using Portnoy as a frame of reference is like picking any random star in the universe to guide your way. His "reviews" if you could call them that are pointless click-baty content that offer zero perspective on pizza.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 16, 2021, 07:55:13 PM
Using Portnoy as a frame of reference is like picking any random star in the universe to guide your way. His "reviews" if you could call them that are pointless click-baty content that offer zero perspective on pizza.

lol, i take your point.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 21, 2021, 10:09:08 PM
My dough ferments too quickly and is over fermented by day two. I have no idea how to solve this - I suspect its due to the hot climate and dough temperature - should I just use really cold water, lower hydration to 60% and lower the amount of yeast from 0.4 to 0.2?

The dough by day two has several popped bubbles on the top and can slide from side to side in the container and is sticky and feels extremely soft when touched.

https://pizzadoughcalculator.vercel.app/calculator?a=doughWeight&tf=0&dw=412&b=1&shp=round&s=0&w=0&l=0&h=63&yt=idy&y=0.4&st=kosherMorton&slt=1.8&br=0&p=none&pa=0&pwa=0&pya=0&pfa=0&pst=0&dh=0&ph=0&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=0&pwt=0&plt=0&c_g=1&c_kg=0&c_ml=0&c_o=0&c_p=0&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=1&c_d=1&c_pr=2&um=1&t=null&n=null&o25=2&o32=2
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on June 22, 2021, 07:11:47 AM
My dough ferments too quickly and is over fermented by day two. I have no idea how to solve this - I suspect its due to the hot climate and dough temperature - should I just use really cold water, lower hydration to 60% and lower the amount of yeast from 0.4 to 0.2?

The dough by day two has several popped bubbles on the top and can slide from side to side in the container and is sticky and feels extremely soft when touched.

https://pizzadoughcalculator.vercel.app/calculator?a=doughWeight&tf=0&dw=412&b=1&shp=round&s=0&w=0&l=0&h=63&yt=idy&y=0.4&st=kosherMorton&slt=1.8&br=0&p=none&pa=0&pwa=0&pya=0&pfa=0&pst=0&dh=0&ph=0&stf=0&dd=0&ss=0&sa=0&pwt=0&plt=0&c_g=1&c_kg=0&c_ml=0&c_o=0&c_p=0&c_t=0&c_tb=0&c_c=1&c_d=1&c_pr=2&um=1&t=null&n=null&o25=2&o32=2

I suppose somebody has probably already said this, but if you're having concerns about overly fast fermentation and high temps, I strongly suggest you try cold fermentation. I know there are some on the forum who aren't big proponents of it, and they're entitled to their opinions, but I can think of no more expedient a remedy than that for the problem you're describing. Give it two or three days in the fridge, and I'm willing to bet you'll get a good batch that works well for you. One more thing, though: I do think your sugar content is rather high at 2%. Decreasing that to more like 1% or even less might also do the trick.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 22, 2021, 12:05:12 PM

I suppose somebody has probably already said this, but if you're having concerns about overly fast fermentation and high temps, I strongly suggest you try cold fermentation. I know there are some on the forum who aren't big proponents of it, and they're entitled to their opinions, but I can think of no more expedient a remedy than that for the problem you're describing. Give it two or three days in the fridge, and I'm willing to bet you'll get a good batch that works well for you. One more thing, though: I do think your sugar content is rather high at 2%. Decreasing that to more like 1% or even less might also do the trick.

RHawthorne,

1. I cold fermented for three days on my latest effort and the dough was still over fermented. Now that you are aware of this, what do you suggest?

2. How does a reduction in sugar help reduce the chance of overfermentation?

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on June 23, 2021, 11:38:50 AM
RHawthorne,

1. I cold fermented for three days on my latest effort and the dough was still over fermented. Now that you are aware of this, what do you suggest?

2. How does a reduction in sugar help reduce the chance of overfermentation?

1) As to the question of overfermentation, I guess I would need more specific information on the symptoms that lead you to believe that this is the case. I think sometimes a recipe will just produce a dough that looks a certain way that makes somebody think that it looks or handles like it's overfermented, but isn't necessarily. And to be honest, I think it's premature at anything less than at least 5 days to really make that pronouncement, at least when we're talking about cold fermentation. I looked at your recipe, and I think you're more or less within the target range for NY style, but aside from the (IMO) unnecessarily high sugar content, I think the oil content might be a bit high as well. Between 63% water and 2% oil, that's a fairly wet dough- maybe more than ideal...but that also depends on the flour you're using, and other factors. I never noticed anywhere in your posts where you mentioned what kind of flour you're using, or what kind of kneading regimen you're using.

I would assume you're probably using a flour with a protein content at least in the mid-12% range or higher, which is common for NY style dough. If this is the case, your dough recipe can probably accommodate that much hydration without an issue, but even then, the oil content might need to be reduced a bit, or even eliminated altogether. It depends on the protein content in your flour, and other ingredients in the flour (like dough conditioners) that make it amenable to a highish hydration content, or not. Some flours can do well with a hydration content over around 62%, and others (like AP flour) are more likely to produce a good dough with less. Oil can be useful in dough, but it isn't always necessary- and some would even argue that it's never necessary at all. This can be a contentious issue, and I think a fair argument could be made that oil is often used automatically in dough when it's purpose is not even well-understood by the person using it- not that I'm implying that this is necessarily the case with you.
 
I think it goes without saying that you should always understand the purpose of anything you're using in any kind of recipe, but it's even more important when you're talking about something that affects the very physical body of the food being produced. The idea behind the use of oil by most is that it's purpose is to make dough more easily stretchable, and/or to help attenuate the evaporation of water in dough during the bake so that it doesn't dry out too fast. These are both understandable goals- and they might also both be non-issues in a given fermentation/handling/baking environment. Making a dough with oil automatically just because that seems to be the 'standard' thing to do might happen to yield good results,or it might not. My suggestion would be to make two batches of dough, one with 2% oil, and one with none at all, and see what kind of results you get. If nothing else, it should give you an idea of just how exactly the oil is affecting your dough. My main point here is not that you shouldn't use oil at all, but just that it's best to test the ingredient out at different levels to see whether you think you need it at all, and at what evels if you do.

I used to use oil at 2% pretty often, but then I started experimenting one batch at a time, and I've arrived at the conclusion that no matter what kind of flour I'm using, or what kind of kneading regimen, I don't think my dough ever benefits from more than 1% oil, and I quite often go without it altogether. This is something that takes some time to fiddle around with, but the knowledge gained can be priceless.

2) Why do I think using too much sugar can lead to overfermentation? The first thing you need to realize (if you haven't thought too much about it already) is that most any flour that's used for pizza dough already has some form of sugar in it- usually barley malt extract. And with the fact being that pizza dough and bread dough mostly differ significantly only in the area of hydration (unless some other type of grain is being used), I think we can safely assume that the flour millers formulate their flour knowing that its end use might be for either purpose. This means that there's an excellent chance that you might not need to add anysugar at all to get a properly fermented batch of pizza dough. It depends on your dough formulation, kneading regimen, and fermentation environment. Again, I think it's often assumed that sugar is necessary in pizza dough- and I generally agree with the practice- but sometimes it's not. And even when it is used, it can present an issue when it's overused. If we assume that a given flour has even a 0.5% sugar content, that means that if you're adding 2% sugar to the mix, that's already 2.5% sugar in the mix, which is quite a bit by my reckoning. This is especially relevant when you're talking about fermenting your dough in a warm environment, where the yeast is primed to get down to business quickly and voraciously, even if you're not using much yeast at all. I could go on and on about all the different things going on during fermentation, but I think I've said enough on the subject to make my point.

Again, I think it would be prudent to make two test batches, one with 2% sugar, and one with none at all, and compare the end results. My chosen amount is again the 'happy medium' of 1% sugar (wheat malt extract in my case), which I mainly stick with because I do cold fermentation, and I want the yeast to have just a pinch of extra fuel to do the job at lower temps.  You might arrive at a different figure than me, but I think you should strongly consider testing this parameter out for yourself, because it could very well be one of the central factors affecting your finished product.

3) You didn't specifically ask about this, but I would say that your kneading regiment is also highly important. I don't recall you saying anything about how much you knead your dough, but overworking the gluten in a batch of dough is something that can also happen, and create symptoms that lead one to conclude that their dough is 'overfermented'. My own regimen is to knead my dough for no more than 10 minutes total, usually with a rest in the middle. This is a complicated area, and one that I'm probably not the best suited to articulate well, but I think that it can pay off handsomely to experiment with. Best practice (IMO) is to tread lightly with you dough and not assume that it needs to be kneaded to an extreme degree to achieve its best gluten development. Sometimes a good long kneading is appropriate, and sometimes it's not. I suggest the next time you make your dough (assuming you're kneading with a mixer, and not by hand), you let your dough knead only long enough so that it just barely clears the bowl and doesn't stick, and no longer. Go from there, and go up on the kneading time with each successive batch of dough, to see how different kneading times affect the finished crust.

Sorry for the long-winded response, and thanks for reading all the way though, if you did. I haven't posted here at any great length for a while, and tend to answer questions pretty thoroughly when I do. I hope this advice proves useful.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 23, 2021, 06:57:26 PM
RHawthorne,

I TRULY appreciate your thorough reply and I will implement your advice in my next bake.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on June 23, 2021, 07:01:05 PM
My latest  and best effort thus far.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: RHawthorne on June 23, 2021, 08:49:34 PM
RHawthorne,

I TRULY appreciate your thorough reply and I will implement your advice in my next bake.
Cool. It sounds to me like you're taking the challenge seriously, and that's what this whole site is all about. The best stuff here starts with pages just like this. Keep it up.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Papa T on August 05, 2021, 03:49:48 AM
Have you checked the temperature of your refrigerator in the area where you store the dough? Generally, if it's below 38 degrees F (3.3C), it will rise slower and above, and if it's above 42 degrees F (5.5C), it will rise faster. The closer the dough gets to 32F (0C) the slower will rise. It completely stops fermenting and rising at freezing temp, which is 32F and 0C.

Those that stack multiple bowls on top of each other, or some toward the front and others toward the back on the same shelf of the fridge that doesn't have great temperature regulation, often find that the dough bowl at the top of the stack, or toward the front, will rise faster than the dough bowl at the bottom of the stack, or toward the back.

If the arrangement of other items in the fridge constantly changes, and/or the door is open and closed frequently, that will also cause fermenting/rising issues as the fridge temp will be difficult to regulate as air circulation is important for temperature regulation.

RHawthorne,

1. I cold fermented for three days on my latest effort and the dough was still over fermented. Now that you are aware of this, what do you suggest?

2. How does a reduction in sugar help reduce the chance of overfermentation?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on August 05, 2021, 07:44:19 PM
Latest pizza - 3 day cold ferment . Turned out pretty cool but Iím having a problem.

It seems as if the pizza is too thin. When I pick it up it flips almost 3/4 of the entire length of the pizza. Iím using a 425 gram dough ball for a 15Ē. How can I fix this? Is the key to make a larger dough ball?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: chrisgraff on August 07, 2021, 05:50:47 PM
Latest pizza - 3 day cold ferment . Turned out pretty cool but Iím having a problem.

It seems as if the pizza is too thin. When I pick it up it flips almost 3/4 of the entire length of the pizza. Iím using a 425 gram dough ball for a 15Ē. How can I fix this? Is the key to make a larger dough ball?

You're making great progress, sir!

It sounds like your two main problems are 1. Dough rising too fast, 2. Too much flop. My suggestions:

1. Use active, not instant yeast. Try starting with 0.3%.

2. Increase salt to 2.5% to improve gluten strength.
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2021, 09:56:07 AM
It seems as if the pizza is too thin. When I pick it up it flips almost 3/4 of the entire length of the pizza. Iím using a 425 gram dough ball for a 15Ē. How can I fix this? Is the key to make a larger dough ball?
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what recipe you used and how you made and managed the dough? There can be many reasons why you had a problem handling the dough.

FYI, the thickness factor you used was [(425/28.35)/[3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08483. That is a common value for the NY style but I recall calculating a value of 0.094 for the dough in a well known NYC pizzeria. You might consider using a larger dough ball to see if that helps for now. With more practice, you can always reduce the dough ball weight to get it to where you are satisfied.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on August 08, 2021, 03:19:12 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what recipe you used and how you made and managed the dough? There can be many reasons why you had a problem handling the dough.

FYI, the thickness factor you used was [(425/28.35)/[3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08483. That is a common value for the NY style but I recall calculating a value of 0.094 for the dough in a well known NYC pizzeria. You might consider using a larger dough ball to see if that helps for now. With more practice, you can always reduce the dough ball weight to get it to where you are satisfied.

Peter

The recipe I used is attached.

1. I placed cold water ( due to my hot climate issues) into the mixing bowl and added salt and sugar and mixed with a fork until dissolved.

2. I then poured all of the flour in the bowl and the IDY abs mixed in the kitchen aid with the spiral hook attachment on stir for roughly 2 mins until the dough started to take shape.
3. I incorporated the oil and mixed on stir for about 4 mins then stopped to take the dough off the hook and turn it upside down to ensure it was kneading and not just spinning around. I mixed for a further 4 mins on stir.
3. Took it out onto a floured service and made a dough ball. Put it in a lightly oiled stainless steel bowl and put some oil on the top.
4. Then I placed it in the coldest part of my fridge for 3 hours uncovered then covered and let it cold ferment for 72 hours.
5. Took out the fridge for about an hour and let it warm up at room temperature ( remember I live in a hot climate) then stretched and dressed the pizza .
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2021, 05:09:28 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what type and brand of flour you used? And did you measure the finished dough temperature after mixing and did you measure the temperature of the dough after letting it warm up at room temperature after the three days of cold fermentation? I assume that your refrigerator temperature is normal.

Overall, it looks like you did a nice job making and managing the dough. And the recipe looks sound.

Peter

Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on August 08, 2021, 06:34:47 PM
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what type and brand of flour you used? And did you measure the finished dough temperature after mixing and did you measure the temperature of the dough after letting it warm up at room temperature after the three days of cold fermentation? I assume that your refrigerator temperature is normal.

Overall, it looks like you did a nice job making and managing the dough. And the recipe looks sound.

Peter

I used  Bobís Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour. No I've never measured the temperature of the dough before. Can you think of additional reasons why the pizza came out very thin and 'floppy;?
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Pete-zza on August 08, 2021, 07:22:16 PM
I used  Bobís Red Mill Artisan Bread Flour. No I've never measured the temperature of the dough before. Can you think of additional reasons why the pizza came out very thin and 'floppy;?
Chronic mole,

Your flour is fine. I just wanted to make sure that your hydration was consistent with the type of flour you are using.

My main concern was that maybe your dough overfermented. That is why I asked about the temperatures, especially since you indicated that you live in a warm area.

Going forward, you might want to repeat your recipe but take note of the internal temperatures of the dough as I noted in my last post and let us know what numbers you got.

Alternatively, you can use a larger dough ball, one with a thickness factor of around 0.095. This test would be to see if the problem you experienced was because you had not yet gained enough experience working with smaller dough balls. Making thin skins for 15" pizzas can take some time to master.

Peter
Title: Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
Post by: Chronic mole on September 04, 2021, 08:40:00 PM
Latest effort. Pep and Sausage.