pizza doughnut

[TXCraig1]

How are you defining "pizza"?

Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."

[TXCraig1]

And to be clear, I'm not suggesting that as an absolute, rather that if you evaluate in absolutes as in the quote I cited above, you have to be evaluated with absolutes.

[HarryHaller73]

Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."

Anything "style" attached is generally a derivative form or an abstraction unless if you're in Italy, where they blatantly steal and rename it with fancy Italian words, ie "Pizza Romana Al Taglio" after an Italian food marketer visited NYC and found the Grandma pie.

And nobody in NYC says, "hey dude, let's get some NY style pizza"

[thezaman]

  pizza bones can be very boring. if you were to offer some extra virgin olive oil the leftovers would go down dramatically.that's what i do at home.
.
 if i can find a pizzeria that offers that or chili oil for the bones i would patronize the pizzeria, providing the rest of the pizza was good. example motorino's with chili oil. pizzeria  fresca NYC with evoo left on every table, another option is a hot honey.
 
   not a slice pro and have had walters pizza,i would not leave a crumb behind. his dough had that toasted malt flavor that i taste in what i perceive as good NY dough
   
   if i see a bone at my joint i always offer something to dip. when i see crusts i get uneasy.,that is why i teach my people to stretch for a 1/4 inch crust after baking. 

[TXCraig1]

And nobody in NYC says, "hey dude, let's get some NY style pizza"

Granted, of course 99.999% of the time when someone in NYC says "hey dude, let's get some pizza," they are talking about neither "pizza" nor a "legitimate NY slice."

[jkb]

Pizza = Neapolitan, the only true pizza. Everything else needs a modifier such as "NY-style."

The use of the word "pizza" to describe a flat bread with toppings dates back to the 10th century, 600 years before the introduction of tomatoes to italy.  Wouldn't Neapolitan just be a "style" milepost along the evolutionary path?

[TXCraig1]

The use of the word "pizza" to describe a flat bread with toppings dates back to the 10th century, 600 years before the introduction of tomatoes to italy.  Wouldn't Neapolitan just be a "style" milepost along the evolutionary path?

If you like, though there are plenty of examples of drawing an objective or arbitrary or dividing line between ancient and modern.

[TXCraig1]

Again, my point is not to start a discussion of what is and is not pizza, and my example was only intended to be that - an example - of the problems of jumping straight to absolutes.

[jkb]

I  don't want a VPN for the NY slice.  I'm happy with a Jacobellis v. Ohio approach.

[The Dough Doctor]

Here in the mid-west we just say "Hey, let's go out for some pizza". This is almost universally followed by "Where do you want to go?" This is then followed (by the person suggesting going out for pizza) with a suggestion for going to their favorite pizzeria. Point is: Everybody doesn't like the same kind/type of pizza so they go to the place that best meets their needs whether it be quality of food or quality of service (ideally both) but even convenience enters into the picture occasionally too. Pizza did not achieve its great popularity and longevity by being stagnant, instead, it has and continues to evolve as our American tastes continue to change. It wasn't too terribly long ago that you couldn't even give a deep-dish pizza away in St.Louis (thin crust reigned supreme) and in Chicago, any pizza with char on the crust was considered to be burnt and promptly sent back to the kitchen to be baked "correctly", we all know how that turned out. I think it is nice and even interesting to know something about the heritage and ancestry of different kinds of pizzas but to get hung-up absolutes is beyond my meager comprehension, and when it comes to pizza we eat what we like, what tastes good to US at any one point in time. I say this because over time our tastes do change and I for one am thankful that there are enough different "styles" of pizza out there to meet my changing tastes. But at the end of the day, I'm still attracted back to the Chicago thin crust pizzas, not because they're go great (they are very good indeed) but because when I'm enjoying one it brings back a lot of memories of another time (the word for it is nostalgia), and once I've eaten my fill, I snap out of it and go back to my current favorite pizza which for right now is the AJ's #6 (Doctor's Delight) and even though my DNA is all over it I'll eventually tire of it and move on to something different which will , in turn, make me appreciate it all that much more when I go back and have another #6 after being away from it for a time. That's how the world works.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[TXCraig1]

I  don't want a VPN for the NY slice.  I'm happy with a Jacobellis v. Ohio approach.

I shall not today attempt further to define pizza, but I know what's not pizza when I see it. 

[jkb]

But at the end of the day, I'm still attracted back to the Chicago thin crust pizzas, not because they're go great (they are very good indeed) but because when I'm enjoying one it brings back a lot of memories of another time (the word for it is nostalgia)

But what if the Chicago thins became unrecognizable and no longer brought back those memories?  That's what we don't want to lose with the NY slice. These things stir up nostalgia because they were pervasive enough and loved enough to merit "traditional" or classic" status.  I certainly wouldn't advocate stagnation. But it's important to preserve worthwhile traditions.

[mitchjg]

Well said, Tom - thank you.

In reading through this thread, I traced back to the funny doughnut that the girl left behind.   Walter's product (be it "legit" or not, as defined by a passionate member) has great crust.  It must be that, not withstanding that Walter hails from NJ, that a great NY Style pizza can be had with a great tasting crust.

That is my preference - if I am going to eat a pizza that is NY Style, it is better with a great crust than with a crust that is not very tasty in its own right.  If it is not legit, by the standard that one member is advancing, then I do not care.  Striving to achieve something that is not as good because it better meets some definition is not something that is worth spending time on.

When I have a NY Style pizza, it triggers my positive (or not) memories and I can assess if it is like the good pizza from "back home and back when."  Beyond that, it becomes uninteresting and/or not  helpful (if not destructive) to debate legitimacy to the point of it becoming a near-religious argument (e.g. "sacred").

I also do not care if my pizza is made by an Albanian or any other immigrant.  NY is famous for being the ever-evolving and changing ethnic/geographic/religious mix that it is and has been.  We are all transplants, even the hipsters and midwesterners.  I care about the product, not the ethnicity or background of the owner or cook.

I do not eat much NY Style pizza anymore.  It (as I think about it) is mostly not available in these parts and I enjoy making different types and evolving my own type.  As Tom described, different styes (or "gasp", variations within a style) can be a positive.

If others wish to pursue a nirvana of a NY Style slice with specific attributes so that it can gain the stamp of "legit", that is fine with me.  But, the debate about "legit vs. not legit" sometimes looks like a goal unto itself as opposed to a means to an end.   Go there if you like.  Not for me nor do I think it needs to be imposed on others.

[The Dough Doctor]

JKB;
Speaking just for myself, it has changed but not so much that I can't relate back to it, and if it did change to the point where I couldn't relate to it, I'd just relegate it to past memory. Much like I do when I go back to the old farmstead and see the house, barn, milk shed and outbuildings while in reality I'm seeing houses, houses, and more houses (it's a subdivision now), but I won't let that rob me of the memories. Then I find my way to Ed and Joe's Pizzeria in Tinley Park, Illinois. Even if the pizza has changed somewhat, the name is still the same and that has to count for something when you're grasping for straws.
Nuff said.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[HarryHaller73]

That is my preference - if I am going to eat a pizza that is NY Style, it is better with a great crust than with a crust that is not very tasty in its own right.  If it is not legit, by the standard that one member is advancing, then I do not care.  Striving to achieve something that is not as good because it better meets some definition is not something that is worth spending time on.

The undercrust and texture of a good NY slice is simply amazing and a classic.  The thin crust put it on the map.  There is simply nothing like it in the world.  The trade off is having a rim which tends to dehydrate because it is exposed bare to a low ceiling gas deck and nature of a low hydrated high protein dough.  To make a light edible rim as a focal point for consumption, you're most likely having to make formulation and workflow changes and you then sacrifice the quality of the undercrust.  This seems to be the point that you are missing.

Most better slice joints try to minimze the outer rim size as much as possible and sauce and cheese as far as possible.  They'd go all the way, but then you'd have no handle to hold it.

[HansB]

  There is simply nothing like it in the world. 

To you.

I like many styles of pizza but when I think of pizza I think of what I grew up eating. As Harry thinks NY is the best, ask a those in Chicago or Napoli you'll get a different answer.

A couple of years ago I was purchasing a vintage instrument at the shop next door to Kesté. Having just eaten there I mentioned to the guys there that they were fortunate having great pizza right next door. They replied that they don't care for it and always eat at John's across the street. In my opinion it's all what you grew up with.

[HarryHaller73]

To you.

No, it's actually true.  No other category of pizza makes an undercrust like that.

[HarryHaller73]

I like many styles of pizza but when I think of pizza I think of what I grew up eating. As Harry thinks NY is the best, ask a those in Chicago or Napoli you'll get a different answer.

A couple of years ago I was purchasing a vintage instrument at the shop next door to Kesté. Having just eaten there I mentioned to the guys there that they were fortunate having great pizza right next door. They replied that they don't care for it and always eat at John's across the street. In my opinion it's all what you grew up with.

Has nothing to do with what's the best pizza, surely do not need another tangent.  Was commenting on what makes certain pizzas unique and special and the importance of making clear distinctions between categories.  The more categories the better.  If someone creates something new, great.  Just that a Philly cheesesteak is not a roastbeef sandwich nor is it corned beef on rye.

[rparker]

........To make a light edible rim as a focal point for consumption, you're most likely having to make formulation and workflow changes and you then sacrifice the quality of the undercrust.....

Or you dedicate yourself to making both aspects the best they can be and watch other people my age and older gets teary eyed as they reminisce about how good it used to be instead of the flavorless cheese/grease transport system it has become.

[jkb]

All pizza crust is inferior without something on it.  Does anyone here eat significant quantities of plain, dry bread?