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Author Topic: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza  (Read 1001629 times)

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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1220 on: May 27, 2020, 04:28:57 PM »
That pizza looks great Barbara..... Nice going!   :chef::pizza:
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Offline Barbara11

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1221 on: May 27, 2020, 04:35:17 PM »
Barbara11,

Can you link me to the recipe you actually used? Or show me the dough formulation you used the calculator for?

It might also help to know what kind of oven you used and how you baked the pizza.

Peter

Thanks! This was the base recipe: https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

But the calculated for three balls was:

Flour (100%):    791.82 g  |  27.93 oz | 1.75 lbs
Water (63%):    498.85 g  |  17.6 oz | 1.1 lbs
IDY (.5%):    3.96 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    11.88 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
Oil (1%):    7.92 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.76 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    7.92 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.99 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
Total (167%):   1322.34 g | 46.64 oz | 2.92 lbs | TF = 0.101
Single Ball:   440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs

I have a noninteresting standard budget electric oven and cooked it on a rectangular pizza stone whose brand name I forgot, at 500 degrees.

Offline Barbara11

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1222 on: May 27, 2020, 04:58:13 PM »
That pizza looks great Barbara..... Nice going!   :chef::pizza:

Thanks Bob!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1223 on: May 27, 2020, 05:29:57 PM »
Thanks! This was the base recipe: https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

But the calculated for three balls was:

Flour (100%):    791.82 g  |  27.93 oz | 1.75 lbs
Water (63%):    498.85 g  |  17.6 oz | 1.1 lbs
IDY (.5%):    3.96 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.31 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
Salt (1.5%):    11.88 g | 0.42 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.47 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
Oil (1%):    7.92 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.76 tsp | 0.59 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    7.92 g | 0.28 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.99 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
Total (167%):   1322.34 g | 46.64 oz | 2.92 lbs | TF = 0.101
Single Ball:   440.78 g | 15.55 oz | 0.97 lbs

I have a noninteresting standard budget electric oven and cooked it on a rectangular pizza stone whose brand name I forgot, at 500 degrees.
Barbara11,

Your dough formulation looks fine. But there are some changes that might suit your purposes more fully. For example, if you use IDY at 0.375%, along with some sugar at about 2% and salt at 1.75-2%, the dough should last at least three days under cold fermentation. However, if freezing the dough is important to you, the amount of IDY you used helps that objective since freezing dough kills some of the IDY.

If you decide that you don't want to cold ferment the dough for more than, say, a day, then you do not need the sugar. The sugar, when broken down into simple sugars, serves to adequately feed the yeast for the duration of the entire fermentation and also to provide residual sugars to contribute to crust coloration.

You can also increase the amount of oil, preferably a quality olive oil, to about 2%, but not more. You can also use a different thickness factor. Most of our members who play around with the NY style tend to use less than the value you used (0.101). There is nothing wrong with the value you used, in fact it is one that I and some members prefer in a home setting. But most members tend to use around 0.085 as a thickness factor and tweak it from time to time.

To guide you a bit better, I did a search today to find a post by Tom Lehmann on the NY style. There are actually several posts by Tom but here is one example, at Reply 1 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=56153.msg565000;topicseen#msg565000

To add to the above, some time ago I posted on ways of using a standard home oven to bake pizzas. And, from time to time, I edit the post to add other methods of using such an oven. The post is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You might also find other posts in the same thread of use since the thread was intended to help "amateur" home pizza makers. In fact, as I was scanning the thread, I saw a dough formulation similar to the one you used, at Reply 8 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg19563#msg19563

Good luck and continued good success.

Peter

Offline Barbara11

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1224 on: May 27, 2020, 06:17:58 PM »
Thanks Peter! That's great info. I forgot to mention that I did have it in the fridge for two days. Hard to wait to eat it, but I knew it was the right thing to do.   :)

I'll go read that info now, really appreciate you putting that together.

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Offline tennisman03110

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1225 on: June 13, 2020, 03:37:48 PM »
That's great looking pizza Barbara... Congratulations!!   :chef:

You are correct in that you can't simply double a recipe.... You did a good same though ma'am.

Please see the forum dough calculator next time.... It'll help you out.   ;)

Why can't you simply double a recipe? The calculators are all based off weight....if I want twice the dough, I double.

Is there context I'm missing?

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1226 on: June 13, 2020, 07:18:49 PM »
Why can't you simply double a recipe? The calculators are all based off weight....if I want twice the dough, I double.

Is there context I'm missing?
the yeast amount wouldn't be right.
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Offline amolapizza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1227 on: June 13, 2020, 08:31:59 PM »
Yes and no, depending on how the dough heats up and cools down.  Still IMO it would be a pretty good bet that you could double the recipe and then fine tune the yeast depending on the results.
Jack

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Offline Dasnyde4

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1228 on: June 14, 2020, 08:03:09 AM »
Hi Everyone,

Thanks to everyone's help I've had great luck making the Lehmann style in my home oven.  I recently bough an Ooni Koda and was wondering if anyone has attempted to make Lehmann style in it or had suggestions to modify the recipe to handle high temperature ovens.  It is difficult to control the temperature of the oven, so I was wondering if there were any changes I could make to make the dough recipe to make it a little more forgiving at higher heat? 

Thanks!!
-Dan

Offline jpaul

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1229 on: June 28, 2020, 02:41:43 AM »
Recently, in another thread (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,949.0.html), Yvonne Marie, a baker, indicated an interest in a NY style dough recipe for an 18-inch NY style pizza.

Today, I took the basic Lehmann NY style dough recipe and, using the baker's percents, reformulated it for the 18-inch size and with a hydration percent of 63%. Although as a baker Yvonne Marie is unlikely to need volume measurements, I nonetheless weighed the flour and water on my digital scale as carefully as possible and have indicated those measurements also in the recipe posted below, for the benefit of those who may not have a scale but have experience in making minor adjustments to the dough as necessary during processing to achieve the desired characteristics of a properly kneaded dough. The processing techniques are essentially the same as those discussed in detail elsewhere in this thread, although I suspect Yvonne Marie will use a stand mixer to knead a dough of the weight produced by this formulation--almost 27 ounces (26.7 oz., to be a bit more exact). It's also possible that she will choose to use a cooler rather than a refrigerator for the retardation of the dough.

Here's the 18-inch formulation, along with the baker's percents:

Flour, high-gluten (100%), 16.10 oz. (about 3 3/4 c. plus 1 t.)
Water (63%), 10.15 oz. (1 1/4 c.)
Salt (1.75%), 0.28 oz. (a bit less than 1 1/2 t.)
Oil (1%), 0.16 oz. (1 t.)
IDY (0.25%), 0.04 oz. (3/8 t.)
Thickness factor (TF) = 0.105

If Yvonne Marie decides to test out this particular formulation, I hope that she will report back to us on her results, one way or the other, so that we will know whether the recipe has merit in the 18-inch size.

Peter

I tried this recipe using a commercial 15qt mixer and mixed the dough according to Lehmann's dough management process.  I ended up with pretty sticky dough when I turned it out and had to dust my work surface and each portion so I can easily shape it into a smooth dough ball. My questions are:

1. Is it okay to dust with a little flour?

2. I live in the Philippines where the humidity is about 73%.  And the bread flour I get here has a protein content of at least 12.5% and moisture content of "NOT MORE THAN 14.0%" according to the manufacturer's website. Do I need to adjust the hydration % in the dough recipes given the kind of flour I use and the humidity in my country?

Any advice would really be appreciated.

 
« Last Edit: June 28, 2020, 04:48:55 AM by jpaul »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1230 on: June 28, 2020, 05:23:06 PM »
I tried this recipe using a commercial 15qt mixer and mixed the dough according to Lehmann's dough management process.  I ended up with pretty sticky dough when I turned it out and had to dust my work surface and each portion so I can easily shape it into a smooth dough ball. My questions are:

1. Is it okay to dust with a little flour?

2. I live in the Philippines where the humidity is about 73%.  And the bread flour I get here has a protein content of at least 12.5% and moisture content of "NOT MORE THAN 14.0%" according to the manufacturer's website. Do I need to adjust the hydration % in the dough recipes given the kind of flour I use and the humidity in my country?

Any advice would really be appreciated.
jpaul,

There is no harm in using bench flour when preparing the dough balls. That is very common. The same flour can perform differently at different times, so you really never know for sure if bench flour is necessary until you are preparing the dough balls and also at the time you open the dough balls to form skins.

As for the humidity, according to what Tom Lehmann has said, a high humidity should not materially affect a dough. Rather, it is the room temperature, and its potential effect on the temperature of the finished dough, that should be the primary concerns. However, if the humidity is on the low side, and/or the dough is mixed too long, that can yield a dough that is too stiff and overly dry and hard to handle.

The 14% number you mentioned is the moisture basis (MB) of the flour and is a common value in the US. Outside of the US it can be around 15%.

Since this is a NY thread, you may find this thread on the subject of humidity of interest:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44993.msg449983#msg449983

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1231 on: July 05, 2020, 12:05:31 AM »
jpaul,

There is no harm in using bench flour when preparing the dough balls. That is very common. The same flour can perform differently at different times, so you really never know for sure if bench flour is necessary until you are preparing the dough balls and also at the time you open the dough balls to form skins.

As for the humidity, according to what Tom Lehmann has said, a high humidity should not materially affect a dough. Rather, it is the room temperature, and its potential effect on the temperature of the finished dough, that should be the primary concerns. However, if the humidity is on the low side, and/or the dough is mixed too long, that can yield a dough that is too stiff and overly dry and hard to handle.

The 14% number you mentioned is the moisture basis (MB) of the flour and is a common value in the US. Outside of the US it can be around 15%.

Since this is a NY thread, you may find this thread on the subject of humidity of interest:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=44993.msg449983#msg449983

Peter

Got it! I'm seeing that my final dough temp is really the issue.  I've observed that after the first 16 to 20 hours, the dough has risen so much in the chiller (set at 0C to 4C) and there is a lot of condensation in the dough container.  I use individual dough containers.

Offline pbc

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1232 on: July 13, 2020, 07:46:57 PM »
So this weekend I finally got around to making my own dough for my Pizza Party (literally always purchased frozen dough balls from a local place and/or fresh dough from a bakery).  Decided to try Tom's recipe as located on the main page of this site.  Simply took the single pizza recipe and doubled it, which as I'm reading isn't the right way to do things! 

Basically wanted 3 balls, and ended up with 3 balls that were 10 oz each (well, 1 was 10.4).  The dough tasted great, the main thing I'd want though is to have a bit more of dough in the middle of the pizza.  I.e., It seemed "too" elasticy, and the middle of the pizza in particular was just too thin (one of the pizza's broke in the oven).  After taking them out of the fridge and letting them rise for a couple hours, they were very, very soft and elastic.  Found it hard to get the pizza into a circle shape and when I put them on the wooden peels they would expand as I moved them too much.

I was just looking at the dough calculator, but not sure how to use it.  I.e., if I wanted say 3 pizzas of say 11" or so each, with a bit more "supportable" crust, would that imply choosing a lower hydration?  What is the impact of having more or less yeast given the range of .17-.5%?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1233 on: July 13, 2020, 08:38:56 PM »
pbc,

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you plan to use, and also how long you want to cold ferment the dough?

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1234 on: July 13, 2020, 10:49:03 PM »
pbc,

Can you tell me what type and brand of flour you plan to use, and also how long you want to cold ferment the dough?

Peter

Cold ferment probably 24 hours for the most part maybe occasionally 48 to 72.

Only flour I could find these days... See attachments.

Thanks Peter!

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1235 on: July 14, 2020, 12:21:04 PM »
Also have a couple small packs of Devilla 00 farina which I will probably try out soon enough.

Is there a good read on this forum of the impact of more/less yeast and hydration on dough and impact of different flour types?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1236 on: July 14, 2020, 12:23:42 PM »
pbc,

I am not familiar with that flour and could not find any information on it through Google searches. However, from the nutrition information it looks like the flour is in the all purpose or possibly bread flour category. In the U.S., the flours that are typically used to make the NY style of pizza are high gluten flour and bread flour.  In New York City pizzerias, the high gluten flour is most common.

Tom Lehmann proposes that one use a dough formulation like the one presented below for a NY style dough that can be cold fermented for 24 hours but also be usable over a 72-hour period. However, I propose to use a thickness factor of 0.09. That is a bit higher than normally used but it might help give you a bit more dough so that the centers of the skins are not too thin. The dough formulation is for three 11" pizzas. I also propose to lower the hydration value a bit since I do not know the absorption value of the flour that you will be using but suspect that it is lower than for bread or high gluten flours. As with any recipe, some testing and experimentation and tweaking may be necessary.

Here it the proposed formulation:

Flour (100%):
Water (59%):
IDY (0.375%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (164.125%):
Single Ball:
443.22 g  |  15.63 oz | 0.98 lbs
261.5 g  |  9.22 oz | 0.58 lbs
1.66 g | 0.06 oz | 0 lbs | 0.55 tsp | 0.18 tbsp
7.76 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.39 tsp | 0.46 tbsp
8.86 g | 0.31 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.97 tsp | 0.66 tbsp
4.43 g | 0.16 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.11 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
727.43 g | 25.66 oz | 1.6 lbs | TF = 0.09
242.48 g | 8.55 oz | 0.53 lbs

Good luck.

Peter


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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1237 on: July 14, 2020, 01:19:34 PM »
Awesome thanks Peter! I actually thought a higher thickness factor made for a thicker dough!

Any good posts available on what/when folks would use more yeast and or higher/lower yeast ratios?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1238 on: July 14, 2020, 02:24:53 PM »
Awesome thanks Peter! I actually thought a higher thickness factor made for a thicker dough!

Any good posts available on what/when folks would use more yeast and or higher/lower yeast ratios?
pbc,

I'm sure that there are many posts on the forum that cover what you are inquiring about in terms of the amounts of yeast used, especially at the extremes. But to give you an example where a lot of yeast is used, take a look at the post at Reply 407 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=576.msg27251#msg27251

The dough described in Reply 407 is called an "emergency" or "short-term" dough because it can be made and used in only a few hours. You will note that the amount of yeast used for such a dough is a multiple of what would normally be used. Also, the water temperature used to make the dough is higher than normal, to speed up things. For emergency aficionados, I eventually created a list of emergency dough recipes in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8297.0

To go to the other extreme in terms of amount of yeast one might use you might take a look at the opening post in the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg62332#msg62332

Notice the small amount of yeast. It is small because the intention is to use room temperature fermentation. The benefit of the long, slow fermentation of the dough at room temperature is that you will get a better flavored crust and texture. In one of my experiments, I used 1/256 teaspoon of IDY. You can see what that amount of yeast looks like, and how many cells there are in that amount of yeast, at Reply 55 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg78615#msg78615

The important thing to keep in mind is that yeast quantity is only one part of the total equation. In addition to yeast quantity, temperature is a major factor, at several levels. The major temperature factors include the water temperature used to make the dough, the flour temperature, the finished dough temperature (the temperature of the dough after mixing and kneading), the temperature at which the dough is fermented, and the temperature of the dough at the time that it is to be used to make pizzas. And there are other tricks that can be used to alter fermentation of the dough, such as when the yeast is added to the dough during its preparation. You can see how many of these factors come into play if you take a look at the thread at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg33251;topicseen#msg33251

Note how several of the doughs survived more than two to three weeks of cold fermentation. Yet they produced outstanding pizzas, at least in my opinion.

If you can spend the time to study the above posts and threads, I can assure you that you will know more than 90% of the people on the planet :-D. The same thing will happen if you study the many variations of Tom's NY style of pizza that I came up with and listed in the Roadmap at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1453.msg13193#msg13193

Peter

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Re: Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza
« Reply #1239 on: July 17, 2020, 10:12:46 PM »
Well.. Spot on at 8.55oz x 3.

Will see how they turn out Sunday!

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