Tom Lehmann's NY Style Pizza

[Pete-zza]

I remember having a pizza slice in New York! IT had pasta baked on it - so bizarre but so good!! Has anyone tried that before at home without burning the pasta?

karenburton,

I took a stab at using pasta on pizzas. Here are a couple of examples:

Replies 7 and 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg73951#msg73951

Reply 128 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg92094#msg92094

The pizza shown in Replies 7 and 8 was based on a Papa Gino's clone pizza. The PG pizzas are most similar to a NY style. The pizza shown in Reply 128 was actually based on a Lehmann NY style dough recipe.

Several years ago, Pizza Hut introduced a lasagna pizza. I never tried it but it is shown at:

https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutphilippines/videos/foryourhandsonly-viva-lasagna-pizza-launch/2403441996591515/

So, there is no reason to be afraid of adding pasta to a pizza.

Peter

[Numerator]

Figures... My KD-8000 won't register weights under about 0.05 ounces. Which is going to make getting the yeast correct impossible.

This is a great little scale:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B06Y61YW7S/?tag=pmak-20

Accurate to .01g

[HildegardRulison]

Thanks for the recipe. I will try to cook and give feedback!

[zole2112]

karenburton,

I took a stab at using pasta on pizzas. Here are a couple of examples:

Replies 7 and 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8476.msg73951#msg73951

Reply 128 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7225.msg92094#msg92094

The pizza shown in Replies 7 and 8 was based on a Papa Gino's clone pizza. The PG pizzas are most similar to a NY style. The pizza shown in Reply 128 was actually based on a Lehmann NY style dough recipe.

Several years ago, Pizza Hut introduced a lasagna pizza. I never tried it but it is shown at:

https://www.facebook.com/pizzahutphilippines/videos/foryourhandsonly-viva-lasagna-pizza-launch/2403441996591515/

So, there is no reason to be afraid of adding pasta to a pizza.

Peter

When I was in Italy we went a couple of times to this pizza place that brought out dozens of pizzas for our group which included multiple pasta pizzas as well as dessert pizzas, it was amazing!! Sadly I took no pics, just ate

[Pete-zza]

For a good example of a NY style pizza based on Tom Lehmann's dough recipe, see the pizza by Papa T at Reply 19141 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg683257#msg683257

Peter

[Pete-zza]

Here is another Lehmann-based NY style pizza that member Papa T made using a dough ball that, because of unavoidable events that intervened, couldn't be used before eight days:

Reply 19160 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg683731#msg683731

Papa T is a knowledgeable and above average pizza maker who can manage less than optimum situations so one should try to use a Lehmann dough within the normal fermentation window. But should situations arise as Papa T experienced, all may not be lost. I might add that old doughs can also be used to make things like garlic knots and cheesesticks where optimum doughs are not needed.

Peter

[Pete-zza]

For a sourdough version of the Tom Lehmann NY style pizza, by member Papa T (Tim), see  Reply19273 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=26286.msg685388#msg685388

Peter

[Kman]

Hi Pete-zza

Have read all your posts with great interest. I'm still hoping I can get some guidance on my quest to bake a perfect NY style pizza. Without diving into my process in too much detail, I'd like to pose a few basic questions:

1. Can 00 italian flour be used for NY style pizza?
2. What is the ideal temperature to bake a NY style pizza using 00 flour?
3. Will temperature affect the crust as in its softness and chewiness? I'm getting a fairly soft crispy crust around the edges but a dense hard crust in the center.

Pizza recipe:

Flour 1.2kg 00 Italian (100%) The type I'm using is Verde 00 with a W290-310 rating
Water 732ml (61%)
Salt 38.4g (3.2%)
Olive Oil 36g (3%)
Sugar 24g (2%)
Yeast 6g (0.5%)

Baking at roughly 500 to 600 C in a chinese deck oven (Note: the temp guage reads 340 on the top and 300 on the bottom but when I place my oven thermometer in the oven it needle reaches the 500C mark. 

[OzPizza]

Hi Pete-zza

Have read all your posts with great interest. I'm still hoping I can get some guidance on my quest to bake a perfect NY style pizza. Without diving into my process in too much detail, I'd like to pose a few basic questions:

1. Can 00 italian flour be used for NY style pizza?
2. What is the ideal temperature to bake a NY style pizza using 00 flour?
3. Will temperature affect the crust as in its softness and chewiness? I'm getting a fairly soft crispy crust around the edges but a dense hard crust in the center.
 

Pizza recipe:

Flour 1.2kg 00 Italian (100%) The type I'm using is Verde 00 with a W290-310 rating
Water 732ml (61%)
Salt 38.4g (3.2%)
Olive Oil 36g (3%)
Sugar 24g (2%)
Yeast 6g (0.5%)

Baking at roughly 500 to 600 C in a chinese deck oven (Note: the temp guage reads 340 on the top and 300 on the bottom but when I place my oven thermometer in the oven it needle reaches the 500C mark.

I wouldn't try to make 00 flour try to be strong bread flour for NY Style, really cross purpose. Too low in protein and not designed for CF. If you want to counter rise dough, high heat bake neopolitan that's what it's for and brilliant.

[Pete-zza]

Hi Pete-zza

Have read all your posts with great interest. I'm still hoping I can get some guidance on my quest to bake a perfect NY style pizza. Without diving into my process in too much detail, I'd like to pose a few basic questions:

1. Can 00 italian flour be used for NY style pizza?
2. What is the ideal temperature to bake a NY style pizza using 00 flour?
3. Will temperature affect the crust as in its softness and chewiness? I'm getting a fairly soft crispy crust around the edges but a dense hard crust in the center.

Pizza recipe:

Flour 1.2kg 00 Italian (100%) The type I'm using is Verde 00 with a W290-310 rating
Water 732ml (61%)
Salt 38.4g (3.2%)
Olive Oil 36g (3%)
Sugar 24g (2%)
Yeast 6g (0.5%)

Baking at roughly 500 to 600 C in a chinese deck oven (Note: the temp guage reads 340 on the top and 300 on the bottom but when I place my oven thermometer in the oven it needle reaches the 500C mark.

Kman,

As has been noted, 00 flours are ordinarily not used to make NY style pizzas. Rather, flours with a protein content of about 12.5-14.2% are used in the U.S. In some cases, 00 flours are malted but from what I can tell from the data sheet for the Verde 00 flour as given at https://www.molinopasini.com/shop/file/catalogo/129/00_VERDE.pdf, the 00 Verde flour appears to be unmalted. If so, that flour would tolerate baking temperatures higher than the roughly 500-550F temperatures typically used to make the NY style pizza in deck ovens in the U.S. In your case, since you are using 2% sugar, you may be able to use a lower bake temperature.

To give you a bit of background information on 00 flours and malted flours, you may want to read the entries for 00 flour and diastatic malt in the forum's Pizza Glossary at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html, and

https://www.pizzamaking.com/glossary.html#index_d

I do not mean to say that one should never use a 00 flour to attempt a NY style dough and pizza. Two of our members, Chef Leo Spizzirri from the North American Pizza and Culinary Academy and pizza book author Evelyne Slomon, came up with dough formulations using 00 flours for the NY style. I discussed their efforts in the post at Reply 2 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=63275.msg624910;topicseen#msg624910

Unfortunately, the video mentioned in the above post is no longer available.

Peter

[Kman]

Pete,

Thank you ever so much for the quick response and this takes a huge weight off my shoulders as I had begun to question everything from my yeast to my fermentation method to the way I'm kneading my dough. I just checked with my supplier and the bread flour they sell is called "00 Marrone" pizza flour from Italy with a 13% protein content (>/= 12% Gluten TQ). I think this may be the one for the NY style then?

[Kman]

Also please note my oven temp goes up to 500 Celsius. Are you suggesting I reduce this for bread flour, and if so, down to what degree?

[Pete-zza]

Pete,

Thank you ever so much for the quick response and this takes a huge weight off my shoulders as I had begun to question everything from my yeast to my fermentation method to the way I'm kneading my dough. I just checked with my supplier and the bread flour they sell is called "00 Marrone" pizza flour from Italy with a 13% protein content (>/= 12% Gluten TQ). I think this may be the one for the NY style then?

Kman,

Based on the data sheet at https://www.molinopasini.com/shop/file/catalogo/130/00_MARRONE.pdf, it appears that that flour may also be unmalted. But with a higher protein content it may be more suitable for your purposes.

Peter

[Kman]

Hi Pete

Just baked a pizza using the recipe I posted earlier. Not sure what I'm doing wrong but got a slightly puffy chewy corona and a dense but chewy crunchy center. The corona did not puff up like I expected. The pizza feels like a frisbee out of the oven. The slices do not hang or droop which is, I'm guessing, a key aspect of the soft crunchy pies you get with a Neapolitan or NYC style pizza. Instead, they maintain a 180 degree angle when held up. All said, they were still a pleasure to eat, and the center was not too hard. Again, though, I feel I have failed because the entire pizza cannot be described as one having a soft crust.

Baking method:

I placed the pie with some marinara on top to par bake for 4 mins in a 350 C oven (top) and 300 C (bottom)
Took it out, dressed it with mushrooms and mozarella, brushed olive oil on the corona then back in the oven for 3 mins.

Here are the pics 

Last pic is my Chinese deck oven

Pete, what am I doing wrong? I know I have used a 00 flour and tried to construct a NYC style pizza out of it and then tried to hand stretch a Neapolitan pizza (everything going haywire obviously) but why the results I'm getting. your thoughts please and those of any other friends out there who would care to help.



 

[Pete-zza]

Kman,

Can you tell us how many dough balls you made and the size of the pizzas you made? From your recipe, it appears that the total dough weight is 2036.4 grams, or 71.83 ounces. Also, can you tell us how long you fermented the dough, and whether it was fermented at room temperature or in a cooler?

Before you posted, I was going to suggest that you use a baking temperature of around 260C-288C, which is typical for a NY style in the U.S. It looks like you are roughly in the right range.

Your pizza looks pretty good, so maybe you can achieve your objective with the flour and oven you are using.

Peter

[Kman]

Hi Pete,

I made 5 dough balls of 300 g each. The remainder of around 120g i did not use

That makes 1620 g approx for total dough weight.

I cold fermented for 21 hours but only allowed the dough ball i used to rest at room temp for 40 mins before shaping a pie. The dough was cold when i made the pie.

 

[Pete-zza]

Hi Pete,

I made 5 dough balls of 300 g each. The remainder of around 120g i did not use

That makes 1620 g approx for total dough weight.

I cold fermented for 21 hours but only allowed the dough ball i used to rest at room temp for 40 mins before shaping a pie. The dough was cold when i made the pie.

Kman,

And what were the pizza sizes?

Peter

[Kman]

Hi Pete,

I could not stretch these pizzas more than 12". Anymore and they would tear in the center. What are your thoughts on that?

Meanwhile I used the 00 flour to conduct another experiment. I made cracker style pizzas using the following formulation:

Dough: 1 kg
Semolina: 12 g
Water: 450 g
Sugar: 15 g
IDY: 10 g
Salt: 15 g
Oil: 20 g

The low hydration made the dough quite difficult to knead at first. However, after about 5 minutes of hard work I let the dough rest for about 30 mins covered with a steel bowl. When i came back to it there was some rise and the dough had become soft and pliable. I kneaded it for another 10 minutes, before placing in an oiled steel container which went into the refrigerator for around 20 hours. After this I let the dough rest at room temperature for around an hour before forming the dough balls and then proceeding to dress the pies and bake in my deck oven (with 300 C top and bottom temps)

Here are the results: I got a fabulous thin, crispy, chewy dough.

 

[OzPizza]

Probably makes more sense to share and discuss what you made in the relevant forum section, given what you've made definitely isn't NY Style there:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?board=28.0

[Kman]

Hi Oz,

Yes I was thinking of posting this in the cracker style pizza thread but I wanted Pete's comments on this use of the flour as my goal is still perfecting the NYC style pizza. I guess the question I wanted to ask was: Using this 00 flour, do I perhaps need to adjust hydration levels (downwards) to achieve more extensibility?