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Author Topic: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita  (Read 3059 times)

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Offline RamirOk

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48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« on: November 06, 2020, 08:36:15 PM »
Hello again! it's been 7-8 years since I posted or commented in this awesome site and community.
I got busy with many things in my life and sadly I stopped making pizzas but I recently started again seriously. After the first failed attepts (Oh boy do you really forget things) I finally got my best results so far.

80% hydratation dough with 20% starter. Bread flour, salt and EVOO.

Animated gif/video https://share.getcloudapp.com/X6ud6gJ9

« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 08:40:24 PM by RamirOk »

Offline scott r

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #1 on: November 06, 2020, 10:26:48 PM »
That looks absolutely fantastic.   Please let us know how you did it!

Offline Yael

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2020, 04:11:06 AM »
That looks absolutely fantastic.   Please let us know how you did it!

 ^^^
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Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2020, 11:45:40 AM »
Thank you Scott and Yael.
So I wasnít super happy with the strength I was developing in my last attempts. I donít have a mixer so I have to do it by hand and 80% hydration it was a little challenging. After many tries with different methods, these ones worked great so far:

Long autolyse, I mixed all the flour and water and left it for 3 hours. I gave my starter a second feeding (1st the night before) after I mix the dough so it had the 3 hrs of the autolyse.

After that I already felt some elasticity in the dough, I added the starter and mixed well. Let it rest for 30min and the added the salt and EVOO. Let it rest for other 30min.

Transfer the dough to a clean surface without flour or water so it can stick, I use my scraper to grab a side, stretch it and fold it into at the middle. The 4 sides X and Y axis. I was trying to see how well it hold its shape, it the beginning it barely did for a few seconds. I will let it rest for 10-15min I do it again for around 4 times until it hold it a little better and let rest for 15min.

After that I did a lamination for the first time. I didnít knew about this method a couple of weeks ago and It really helps a lot in strength development. Hereís a great video doing the lamination


I put it back in the bowl and after 30min I started doing coil folds every 30min I did just 3.


Then I divided and shape the 2 doughs with very little flour and put both on a lightly oiled container and to the fridge for 48hrs.

I hope I was clear enough please let me know if anyone have other questions. I know it may read as a lot of time but it wasnít so bad since it was just for some breaks I will still try to optimize this process.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 01:43:18 PM by RamirOk »

Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2020, 12:44:32 PM »
That pizza really does look great. What kind of flour did you use? It looks like it has some color from whole grain. I tried Bonciís recipe from his translated book twice and they were epic failures. The first was as hard as cracker and the second was like a thick and breads whole grain focaccia

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Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2020, 01:42:13 PM »
That pizza really does look great. What kind of flour did you use? It looks like it has some color from whole grain. I tried Bonciís recipe from his translated book twice and they were epic failures. The first was as hard as cracker and the second was like a thick and breads whole grain focaccia

I used a bread flour that has 14% protein. I try to avoid imported flours that while they're better quality, organic, etc. They're too expensive so I try make it work with what I can get locally. I tried 2 mexican brands with 14% protein but one did not hold it shape and was a trouble to really develop it may work with a mixer but I did get good results hand mixing it. The other one from Harinas Elizondo absorbs the water very well.

The grain color is from my starter that is a 50% rye 50% all purpose flour. I do want to start experimenting with mixings like whole wheat, spelt, etc.


Talking about your attempts... how much hydration did you use? Bonci normally advises 70% in the recipes he shares so it easier to work with but he regulary goes up to 90%. Did you notice any problems in the process or after you took off the oven? so it can also be the handling of the dough to the pan, etc.

Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2020, 08:03:37 PM »
Really good questions. Bonciís 2013 book which was translated to English doesnít have bakerís % and went back and forth between grams when talking about the Levain and cups when talking flour and water. I think I was at 80% hydration. I was also using a 50/50 mix of Mulino Marino Burrato and Faro Integrale (spelt) which is harder to make work but Bonci claims that is what he serves at Pizzarium. It was also my first attempt at a sourdough starter . It was so crisp and dense I assumed my starter was no good. I did it over with IDY and it was edible but very bready. I even tried playing with oven temperature which Iím still not sure of. The only thing that worked was the Lloyd pans.

Youíve inspired me to try again. I will probably integrate a high protein white flour with some Burrato and spelt. My sourdough starter is quite healthy now as well. I will follow your recipe and stretching techniques

Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2020, 01:21:46 AM »
Yeah the starter was probably one of the main problems. I also use Lloyd pans theyíre great!
And thatís so awesome to hear please post your results when you get a chance.

Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2020, 09:03:07 AM »
Sorry, I keep having more questions.
- do you have bakerís % fir your ingredients?
- how many pans did your dough make?
- what temperature and time did you bake and did you dress your dough raw prior to baking?
- lastly, I didnít understand your comment about a second starter feeding. You seemed to be saying you fed it again while the flour and water were in autolyse period and then added to dough. That would only give 3 hours for the starter to develop from the feeding? Is that correct? Did you just feed or also throw out waste?

I used to have business interests in Mexico but they were sold in 2019. I miss my visits!! Mostly to Mexico City but occasionally to Monterrey.

Thanks for your help

Sapp

Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2020, 09:48:51 AM »
No prob.

I do is:
100% bread flour
80% water
20% starter
4% EVOO
2% Salt
With a Thickness factor of 0.14.

It makes 2 doughballs for 14 inch square pans

I dress them with only tomato sauce and prebake it for around 4-5min at 500F then I take it out the oven to add the cheese and any other ingredients, gets back in the oven for another 5-6min

Yea about the starter I had it very active and ready when I started mixing the dough but because I had to wait for 3 hrs to use it I gave it another feeding throwing just a little bit to fit my container but that was just poor planning for me, that should not be necessary if you organize your time well.

Thatís great to hear, even me with this situation I miss also going to Mexico City as I use to go at least once a year, love the weather and of course the food!

Please let me know if my answers were clear.

Yesterday I made them again now with 2 hrs of autolyse and just by feeling it I predict theyíre going to be just as good 🙌🏼 Iím going to bake one after 48hrs and the other after 72hrs.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 09:51:04 AM by RamirOk »

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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2020, 12:09:45 PM »
That is very helpful and very clear! I will probably try this after thanksgiving which is a major food and family holiday I have to prepare for.

I only made it to Pujol once. It was quite an experience. Our operation was in Cuautitlan but executive offices in Santa Fe. We did have a branch in Monterrey. My only regret is that I didnít study mySpanish harder when I was in high school.

I will report back after my next try. Iím going to try 50% Giustoís high performer (high protein AP), 30% Burrato (high extraction and high protein) and 20% spelt integrale. I really like whole grains.

Thank you

Offline DoouBall

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2020, 03:31:32 PM »
Ramir, these are some excellent pizzas with great bubble structure. Nice job!

Sapp, I've also tried to make pizza with Mulino Marino Burrato and while it's a nice flour, it results in denser pizza/bread/focaccia compared to using a strong white flour. One of my friends is pretty good at making Pizza in Teglia and he recommended using 40% Burrato at most and the rest should be a strong white flour. I'm sure it's possible to make a good pizza with 50/50 blend of Farro Bianco and Burrato but it will be much harder than using a strong white flour or a strong Tipo 1 flour.
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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2020, 08:15:59 PM »
Thanks and helpful affirmation of my hypothesis that either Bonci REALLY IS a magician or he is lying in his book where he claims that his Pizzarium pizza is 50/50 Burrato and Farro Integrale. As a whole grain devotee, I wanted to believe that it was true but my first efforts were terrible. I do make a really pretty decent NY style pizza with 100% Burrato but it tends to work best with hearty toppings... texture is pretty good too. Itís kind of like a50/50 blend of white and whole wheat.

So if I leave out the Farro Integrale which really complicates hydration for me, would something like Giustoís High Performer be good for the remaining 60% flour or should I use one of three Caputo flours I have on hand? Blue, Super Nuvola and Saccorosso. I would love to achieve Ramirís impressive airiness without being whitebread.

Sapp


Offline amolapizza

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2020, 04:14:03 AM »
I think that Bonci is without doubt indeed a magician! :)

FWIW, I also like to use a big part of refined flours, but am trying to learn to bake with more "healthy" flours, though sometimes it's a struggle both with the taste as well as the structure of the finished product.

Maybe it's also a question of what flour you use.  Farro in Italian refers to 3 different grains, Triticum monococcum, Triticum dicoccum and Triticum spelta.  If I've understood correctly Bonci likes to use Triticum monococcum which I think we refer to as Einkorn wheat, though I'm nor sure if he always uses that.

To complicate matters Einkorn can refer both to the wild Triticum boeoticum, or to the domesticated form Triticum monococcum... :)
Jack

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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2020, 08:07:01 AM »
Leave it to the Italians to confuse things and have one word mean three different things. No wonder my parents couldnít teach me to speak it very well. To add to my confusion, the translator of his 2013 book written in Italian says that his Farro is Spelt but even the way she wrote it was written as a statement that while Farro is a separate form of ancient grain it frequently refers to spelt by flour mills... she didnít say Bonciís Farro Integrale is whole grain spelt. I could always buy a franchise and be taught the real secrets. My neighbor who is in the pizza business has been to both his original shop in Rome and the franchise shop in Chicago and felt the franchise was every bit as good as the original both in terms of the dough and freshness and creativity of the toppings.

In any event, my personal goal is to hopefully get the texture of the crust right first with easier flours and improved dough handling following Ramiroís approach. Then maybe start pushing the envelope on flour blends.

I will hope to post my progress in December

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Offline amolapizza

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #15 on: November 11, 2020, 09:08:40 AM »
I just looked up what he has to say in his 2019 book Pizza Hero.  He says that as a good Roman he loves Farro, especially in it's monococco variety, that would be Einkorn and not Spelt.

I don't have his 2013 book so I don't know what it says in Italian.

If you are a beginner and want to learn making pizza alla pala, I'd start with a strong wheat flour to learn the fundamental techniques of making high hydration dough, building enough strength in it, extending it, moving it to the peal and baking it.  Plenty to learn and plenty that can go wrong!  Once you've mastered the basic techniques you can start adding other flours, I'd start with 20% or so and work my way up.

I just made a pala today (38% tipo 1 and 62% Caputo pizzeria) and something must have gone wrong because one part stuck to the peal so I ended up with a bread instead of a pala... I suspect that for some reason a small part of it never got covered with Semola and therefore stuck to the wooden peel. It nearly burnt on the top too as it rose up far too high for my oven..  Now the only mystery remaining is did it bake correctly on the inside, maybe I'll only be able to eat the part of it that remained more or less pala like :D

Oh well I'll have another go at it tomorrow as at the moment I'm practicing with 4 hour doughs, so I make it in the morning and bake it after lunch.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 09:11:10 AM by amolapizza »
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Offline RamirOk

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #16 on: November 11, 2020, 11:41:41 AM »
Made another one with now 2hrs of autolyse and with 72hrs of cold fermentation.

While the crub is not as impressive as the last one, the flavor is way better. For the crumb I think is a combination of my dough handling. I was being lazy and did not weigh the dough balls just calculated the half and then divided. There's also the possibility that because of the long fermentation with not an ideal container it lose a little of the strenght, from what I have read for long fermentated doughs I can try to do another shaping hrs before the bake.

A lot of new things to try, overall I'm happy specially with the flavor and chew texture.

Photos:
1-Dough out the container, a little flatter than I would like. Need to buy some containers...
2-Dough in the pan
3-With the souce
4-First 5min bake before the cheese
5-Last 5min bake (I should it left it for 2 - 3 more minutes)
6-Slices
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 11:43:31 AM by RamirOk »

Offline amolapizza

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #17 on: November 11, 2020, 01:46:16 PM »
Really good questions. Bonciís 2013 book which was translated to English doesnít have bakerís % and went back and forth between grams when talking about the Levain and cups when talking flour and water. I think I was at 80% hydration. I was also using a 50/50 mix of Mulino Marino Burrato and Faro Integrale (spelt) which is harder to make work but Bonci claims that is what he serves at Pizzarium. It was also my first attempt at a sourdough starter .

Sorry for kind of being off topic in this thread!  But I am a fan of Bonci and pizza in teglia / alla pala, and am hoping I can help Sapp a bit.

In his Pizza Hero book he gives 3 recipes. The ones containing farro are:

1. 500g wheat flour (Buratto), 500g white farro flour (farina di farro bianca - I think this means a refined flour similar to a 0 or 00), 800g water, 20g EVO, 20g salt and 3g IDY or 200g sourdough starter.  He doesn't state what kind of farro he uses, but earlier in the book he specifically mentioned farro monococco (einkorn), he also doesn't specify the hydration of the starter, I'd guess a liquid starter (100% hydration)

2. 500g farro buratto, 500g farro integrale, 800g water, 20g EVO, 20g salt, 3g IDY or 150g sourdough starter.  Here he specifically mentions that the day before he feeds the starter with the same farro flour that he uses in the dough.

Hope this is of some help!

I also found this link in English that explains the farro flours a bit, hopefully it's helpful!
http://www.lentzspelt.com/whats-farro.html
Jack

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Offline Yael

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #18 on: November 11, 2020, 06:59:57 PM »
Made another one with now 2hrs of autolyse and with 72hrs of cold fermentation.

While the crub is not as impressive as the last one, the flavor is way better. For the crumb I think is a combination of my dough handling. I was being lazy and did not weigh the dough balls just calculated the half and then divided. There's also the possibility that because of the long fermentation with not an ideal container it lose a little of the strenght, from what I have read for long fermentated doughs I can try to do another shaping hrs before the bake.

A lot of new things to try, overall I'm happy specially with the flavor and chew texture.

Photos:
1-Dough out the container, a little flatter than I would like. Need to buy some containers...
2-Dough in the pan
3-With the souce
4-First 5min bake before the cheese
5-Last 5min bake (I should it left it for 2 - 3 more minutes)
6-Slices

It's a very nice result, not too many differences from the 1st pic actually from here. I wish I could try it  :P
Do you see a huge difference when folding as the video you added in your previous message? I mean VS classic folding or no folding? I'm thinking that for such a long fermentation (I guess it's a home fridge, with a temperature not as low and steady as one in a professional setting?) all that gluten development already weakened a lot?
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Offline Sapp

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Re: 48hr sourdough Pizzarium style Margherita
« Reply #19 on: November 11, 2020, 08:11:21 PM »
Sorry for kind of being off topic in this thread!  But I am a fan of Bonci and pizza in teglia / alla pala, and am hoping I can help Sapp a bit.

In his Pizza Hero book he gives 3 recipes. The ones containing farro are:

1. 500g wheat flour (Buratto), 500g white farro flour (farina di farro bianca - I think this means a refined flour similar to a 0 or 00), 800g water, 20g EVO, 20g salt and 3g IDY or 200g sourdough starter.  He doesn't state what kind of farro he uses, but earlier in the book he specifically mentioned farro monococco (einkorn), he also doesn't specify the hydration of the starter, I'd guess a liquid starter (100% hydration)

2. 500g farro buratto, 500g farro integrale, 800g water, 20g EVO, 20g salt, 3g IDY or 150g sourdough starter.  Here he specifically mentions that the day before he feeds the starter with the same farro flour that he uses in the dough.

Hope this is of some help!

I also found this link in English that explains the farro flours a bit, hopefully it's helpful!
http://www.lentzspelt.com/whats-farro.html


Excellent article. The recipe I tried twice was the third one which he claims he uses in his store. From various pizza shows featuring Bonci, they made a big deal how he bought his grains direct from Mulino Marino and ground them himself. I purchased through Bakery Bits UK the Burrato and Farro Integrale. Obviously not as fresh as locally purchased and milled but hood flours that I store well.  I will double check if there is more info on the Farro packaging. In any event, the Farro is hard to work with when you use any more than 20% in any dough I make including my whole multi grain SD bread. Iím going to dial back to recipe number two which is pretty close to your original suggestion.

Now, if you can help me with my Valoriani WFO for a better cook of my NPís :) ... but that is even further off topic.

I canít wait to travel again for more culinary adventure.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2020, 08:24:12 PM by Sapp »

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