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Author Topic: "Sauce Boil"  (Read 2388 times)

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Offline gordonderp

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #20 on: April 04, 2021, 09:59:37 AM »
Depends on what type of tomato you're using and how you process it. I do whole peeled tomato through the fine plate of a food mill. That doesn't require any water or oil (because whole peeled are watery).

Do you have a video to show the viscosity? I usually just use an immersion blender to break town my tomatoes

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #21 on: April 04, 2021, 10:39:17 AM »
Do you have a video to show the viscosity? I usually just use an immersion blender to break town my tomatoes

If you're using whole peeled, I'd think an immersion blender would result in similar to mine. Check out the video in this link:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg598020#msg598020



Matt

Offline gordonderp

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #22 on: April 05, 2021, 04:15:40 AM »
If you're using whole peeled, I'd think an immersion blender would result in similar to mine. Check out the video in this link:
https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=51924.msg598020#msg598020

Oh wow that's a lot thinner my sauce currently, using crushed tomatoes right now I'll try the whole peel cans

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2021, 06:11:55 PM »
So I never updated this thread...reason is nothing good to report. I also missed a couple weeks of baking, and spent a couple weeks making pan pizzas.

But here's what I tried:

- 10 minute bake. Note I'm usually around 9 minutes so it's not a huge difference. I wrote down that the sauce seemed a bit better. But I wasn't blown away, it didn't seem like a breakthrough. Although I was distracted by my undercrust being more done than I like.

- then inspired by WB's posts above, I tried a cooked sauce that included both fresh and powered onion and both fresh and powdered garlic. I had never done all of them together like that. I liked it. Then I did it again the following week and thought it was too pasta saucy, I think because it was cooked.

- so I went back to uncooked sauce and finally tried anchovy paste. But I think I put too much, and my cheese was likely too old. Botched pie.

- tonight I'm trying just a small amount of Worcestershire sauce. Who knows...

Matt

Online quietdesperation

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2021, 07:49:14 PM »
matt, i used to record when sauce boil started and how long the boil lasted out of the oven. i recall more active boiling when tf was smaller, around .07 also, the ratio of sauce to cheese seemed to make a difference. you might try a 14 inch oie with 6 ounce of cheese (for instance).

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jeff

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2021, 07:58:47 PM »
Cheers QD. Based on my pie tonight I had already decided to go thinner crust next week. It definitely helps get the orange nectar. Not sure I'm willing to reduce my cheese amount though!

Matt

Offline wb54885

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2021, 08:56:11 PM »
But have you tried a half cooked sauce with ____,____,_____,____, and _____?!   :p

Iíve started only sautťing my raw onion and garlic, not cooking any of the tomato or anything else with it. Adding that plus the oil itís cooked in, plus both onion and garlic powder, plus salt and herbs, to the raw tomato. I like this spice blend a lot, but honestly the best change Iíve made is the thinner sauce itself. I feel like these ingredients give the sauce what it needs to be flavorful, but the thinner consistency is what releases the power and makes the pop happen. I used blended Tomato Magic the other night instead of milled Alta Cucina, all other things equal, and it just wasnít the same.

New to me is having an oven with a window, so I get to watch the boil happen now. Thatís a whole new world of observation.
Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself.

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2021, 09:32:43 PM »
Cool. I love to watch the pie bake.

Yeah, part of my discouragement is because I went back through some of my old posts. I hadn't remembered, but have already tried many variations. Cooked, half tomato cooked/half raw, only oil cooked to infuse some flavors.

Matt

Offline gordonderp

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #28 on: April 12, 2021, 12:13:24 PM »
Have any of you guys experimented with putting some msg in the sauce? Might be help unlock that "pizza flavour" you guys were talking about earlier

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #29 on: April 12, 2021, 12:24:14 PM »
Have any of you guys experimented with putting some msg in the sauce? Might be help unlock that "pizza flavour" you guys were talking about earlier

I haven't. WB, have you?

A few forum members have talked about this before, and a few use it. I've wondered about it alot. Thank you for the reminder. Thats one that I've never tried.

For what it's worth, I once asked someone who works at a pizzeria distributor about it. He said they don't sell it, and pizzerias don't use it. (He also said no one should use it, so we know where he stands.) But that's not conclusive.



Matt

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Offline wb54885

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2021, 01:04:15 PM »
Nope, never used it in a sauce or seen it used in sauce by a pizzeria. Not where Iíve worked, anyway.

Matt, if you hadnít said earlier in the thread that you got one of your great bakes from a previously frozen portion of sauce, my next guess would have been that a freshly opened can that had never seen a refrigerator might be the biggest remaining difference between what youíre doing at home vs. what most pizza places around you are doing on a daily basis. I donít take general issue with refrigeration or freezing of tomatoes, but in trying to crack this sauce flavor puzzle Iím thinking a lot about room temperature sauce and cheese and how they cook differently based on whether the oven has to heat them up first before they begin to boil and mingle. At the same time, not every place that gets that flavor is holding both sauce and cheese at room temp, so it canít be the only factor.


Every oven is a law unto itself and only itself.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2021, 04:00:16 PM »
Have any of you guys experimented with putting some msg in the sauce? Might be help unlock that "pizza flavour" you guys were talking about earlier
gordonderp,

I recall member Jackie Tran (Chau) posting a sauce recipe using MSG. I did a search and found the post at Reply 7 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4452.msg92245#msg92245

I also posted on the matter in the following post at Reply 8.

Peter

Offline psedillo

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #32 on: April 12, 2021, 04:45:43 PM »
gordonderp,

I recall member Jackie Tran (Chau) posting a sauce recipe using MSG. I did a search and found the post at Reply 7 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4452.msg92245#msg92245

I also posted on the matter in the following post at Reply 8.

Peter

Peter,

Your recall of past posts on this forum is legendary, thank you.

My wife regularly uses MSG for stir fry and it makes a huge difference. I need to give Chau's recipe a try as I'd be interested in the results.

Paul
Paul

Offline Peter B

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #33 on: April 12, 2021, 09:02:07 PM »
Nope, never used it in a sauce or seen it used in sauce by a pizzeria. Not where Iíve worked, anyway.

Matt, if you hadnít said earlier in the thread that you got one of your great bakes from a previously frozen portion of sauce, my next guess would have been that a freshly opened can that had never seen a refrigerator might be the biggest remaining difference between what youíre doing at home vs. what most pizza places around you are doing on a daily basis. I donít take general issue with refrigeration or freezing of tomatoes, but in trying to crack this sauce flavor puzzle Iím thinking a lot about room temperature sauce and cheese and how they cook differently based on whether the oven has to heat them up first before they begin to boil and mingle. At the same time, not every place that gets that flavor is holding both sauce and cheese at room temp, so it canít be the only factor.

You bring up a point that I have never seen anyone mention here.  According to an episode of Good Eats, there is a flavor compound in tomatoes that will be permanently turned off when a tomato goes under something like 50-ish degrees.  I have never tried a side-by-side, but I try to never open a can so far in advance as to need refrigeration for this reason.  Now if I have extra to store, I obviously store it - I don't think the flavor difference would be enough to warrant tossing perfectly edible tomato.
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Offline wb54885

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #34 on: April 13, 2021, 08:34:57 AM »
Peter B, hereís one reference from 2005 to the 50 degree mark and the effect of a fresh tomato passing below it, also from Good Eats:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=1886.0

I know Craig has said he prefers not to refrigerate his sauce, and on the other hand many people think that refrigerating sauce helps ingredients come together. At this point itís probably important to differentiate between ďtomatoesĒ and ďsauceĒ like Scott Wiener advises, because if your ďsauceĒ is just adding salt to good tomatoes, there arenít any other ingredients present that would need melding, and you arenít really working with a ďsauceĒ at all. Thereís also the issue of whether the 50 degree mark is relevant to canned tomatoes, which are already cooked during the canning process and may endure effects to this particular enzyme in other ways. Maybe Pete-zza can address the science there.

Because Iím not versed in the chemistry and I tend to think I have the palate of a toddler, my interest is more in the temperature of the tomato/sauce when it goes into the oven and how a warmer sauce/cheese dynamic (say, 55-60 degrees each vs. 40 degrees each) will cook over the course of the 8-10 minute bake. Certainly boiling would happen more quickly and the resulting melt/boil would go to a more advanced state than if they had begun to cook at a lower temperature, but is this going to produce the specific flavor effect Mattís talking about? My gut and memory are heavily pushing an aroma theory on me, that maybe if the fats start hitting boiling water faster than normal and you get hit with the smell of cooking pizza at an early stage in your wait for the finished product, your mind anticipates ďpizzeriaĒ experiences more readily. Then, when the more developed orange grease hits your taste buds, youíve completed a circuit that suggests ďthis is how they do it,Ē or something like that. Maybe Iím off on this, but itís a hunch Iím personally exploring, so I thought Iíd bring it up.

Paul,

MSG is popular for a reason, no doubt about that! Iíd be very, very surprised if itís present in the sauces of any of the local spots in Mattís area though. I think the standard daily routine for those pizza makers is to run 10-20 cans through a food mill, mix in cups or even handfuls of salt and sugaróand maybe this or thatóand get started making pies.

The one application of MSG I have seen in a pizzeria was as a component of a post-bake spice blend that also included fried garlic, Parmesan, and a few other things.


* Also, itís not like ďroom temp sauceĒ is a new discovery or anything...just thinking about the hundreds of variables that pizzerias would keep consistent from day to day, that might change in home experiments week by week, and that could make a difference between a 9.5/10 pie and a 10/10 pie.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2021, 11:56:11 AM by wb54885 »
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Offline GumbaWill

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #35 on: April 16, 2021, 10:37:25 PM »

 I went back to uncooked sauce and finally tried anchovy paste. But I think I put too much,

Anchovy paste is not the best. Use a few fillets of a good quality packed in olive oil anchovy. I use one 6oz. can for a #10 can of ground tomato. (7/11)

Offline GumbaWill

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #36 on: April 16, 2021, 10:43:45 PM »
Have any of you guys experimented with putting some msg in the sauce? Might be help unlock that "pizza flavour" you guys were talking about earlier

If I close my eyes and think about "pizza flavor." I am brought back to the pies of my youth and the aroma and taste of oregano. 

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #37 on: April 17, 2021, 02:47:33 PM »

Matt, if you hadnít said earlier in the thread that you got one of your great bakes from a previously frozen portion of sauce, my next guess would have been that a freshly opened can that had never seen a refrigerator might be the biggest remaining difference between what youíre doing at home vs. what most pizza places around you are doing on a daily basis. I donít take general issue with refrigeration or freezing of tomatoes, but in trying to crack this sauce flavor puzzle Iím thinking a lot about room temperature sauce and cheese and how they cook differently based on whether the oven has to heat them up first before they begin to boil and mingle. At the same time, not every place that gets that flavor is holding both sauce and cheese at room temp, so it canít be the only factor.

Thanks WB.

To your intended point, my sauce is room temp when I bake. I usually take the sauce out of the fridge 5-6 hours before bake. (And I add the herbs/seasoning about halfway through that rest period.)

I posted about this once before, asking what temp pizzeria sauce is. I only received a couple responses, but both indicated that the law requires the sauce to be cold. I have no idea how closely that's followed though. I always assumed (just a guess) that pizzerias store the sauce in those metal tins in a fridge. Then they take them out of the fridge one or two at a time when needed. If true, that could cause various temps of sauce to be used.

To the point about whether freezing the tomato hurts the flavor, I have not noticed a real difference when freezing milled Alta Cucina. I notice a very slight change in consistency, with the previously frozen being just barely more watery. But its very minor and doesn't impact the bake IMO. (Side note, while freezing cheese results in only minor changes too, I notice it a bit more. The consistency of the melt/stretch seems to change when previously frozen.)

Despite my comment about, I have thought from time to time about experimenting with a different tomato so that I don't have to freeze it. A week or so ago there was a thread on the Sauce board about small "format" tomatoes, and someone suggested small cans of Mutti whole peeled, which I made a note of. If I do experiment with smaller batches, that's what I'll try next.

Matt

Offline foreplease

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #38 on: April 18, 2021, 09:45:26 AM »
Matt, although only a small number of people here would be interested, the law would also allow for sauce to be held hot  - 140į or higher.


Have you tried freezing Alta Cucinas before milling them? Iím not suggesting it but wondered if in all your trials you had tried it.
-Tony

Offline hammettjr

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Re: "Sauce Boil"
« Reply #39 on: April 18, 2021, 11:14:01 AM »
Thanks Tony. No, I don't think I've tried freezing the tomatoes whole.

Matt

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