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Author Topic: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.  (Read 3144 times)

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Offline Fiorot

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #60 on: February 27, 2021, 12:50:37 AM »
Did your yeast survive 126.3?
Oh Crap !!!   I just saw this.!        95-102 is great.   110 yeast are not doing well   115 call the medical examiner.

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #61 on: February 27, 2021, 04:03:47 AM »
Did your yeast survive 126.3?

Is that too hot ???
Are you able to tell from the image if still looks active or dead?

Offline foreplease

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #62 on: February 27, 2021, 09:13:27 AM »
Is that too hot ???
Are you able to tell from the image if still looks active or dead?
No, I am not able to tell but, yes, it seems way too hot.


How is it looking today?
-Tony

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #63 on: February 27, 2021, 09:27:11 AM »
How is it looking today?

Picture 1 - dough after mixing yesterday.
Picture 2 - dough after 12 hours in refrigerator and on counter about 90 minutes so far
Picture 3 - underside

Whats the verdict?
Expected rise in the dough? Did the yeast do its job?

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #64 on: February 27, 2021, 12:05:47 PM »
From the view of the bottom of the bowl , I would say you got very lucky .   From the picture of the yeast in the water I am assuming you had sugar in there too.  And from that I would say not good .  It should be foamy not just milky looking.   From your pictures it is hard to tell the rise pr is it flat like a pancake.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 12:08:09 PM by Fiorot »

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Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #65 on: February 27, 2021, 01:18:32 PM »
Quick recap of Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .94g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Dough
Grabbed the dough out of the bowl and and all started stretching out.
My first thought was "Damn, this is what happened last week when the pie came out so flat."
Thought maybe the bowl was coated with too much oil or the oil used on top was too much.
It was a becoming a mess quickly so (no idea of the technical term) folded the dough, pushed with the heel of my hand and did this a dozen of so times.
Some sort of metamorphosis of the dough occurred. It became a bit firmer with each fold and push.
Eventually the dough became very elastic and it took longer than usual to make it into a pie.

QUESTION : Who can explain the above and why it went from basically melting in my hand to very elastic? Is there an extra step I should be doing with the dough for which I am unaware? Is this fold and push part of the pre-pie ritual? I would always take from the bowl and start the pie formation.

Cooking
Last week the pie was under cooked because it was placed on the stone once the grill hit 550.
Since then I purchased one of those temperature guns and just out of curiosity when the grill hit 550 today I checked the temp of the stone and it was only 425. More than 100 degrees difference which explains a lot.

Today, the temperature gun confirmed just over 600 degrees. 

At 6 minutes I took a peek and the bottom looked done. Took it out for a closer look and thought let me toss it back in to get the top of the crust a bit more.
It was probably too late since it was already removed. Only kept it in for another 30 seconds.

Next time I may go to a full 7 minutes before checking as I think it would have helped the top without burning the bottom.

Cut/Taste
Running the pie slicer through the crust is always nice to hear a slight crunch.
This is the closest I have come to a NY Style pizza.
Both wife and I felt it was one of the better pies I have made.
Although the crust could have been a bit thinner, it was my thinnest to date.
Although the crust on the end wasn't brown, inspecting the inside and its one of the pies for me where the end crust is fully cooked.
The end did not taste undercooked. In fact, it was light and fluffy and a slight crunch on the bottom. This is actually one of the better crusts to date as well.

Since I am still experimenting, this week was a simply plain cheese pie instead of all the toppings I have been using.

8 Pictures Uploaded
1 - Not so round pie
2 - Not as deep as wide, but neither is my stone.
3 - Nice 600 degrees
4 - Results after about 6 minutes.
5 - Bottom of pie
6 - Crust is fully cooked and pretty thin slice.
7 - Another image of the crust.
8 - Could be a bit thinner, but extremely happy with today's results.

What next?
Will decrease water temperature before adding yeast.

Wish List
Would like to get the crust just a bit thinner. (not the end part)
Would like to get the end crust a bit more brown on top.

Summary
If I were stuck with this pie each weekend I would be very happy as it most definitely was my best, but am always looking to improve.
Thanks to all who have contributed.  ;)

Offline Fiorot

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #66 on: February 27, 2021, 02:13:05 PM »
much improved.  Too Much cheese?  How much did you use.   Cheese could have cooked more and the conicone would be darker.  But for NY you should not have a cornicone that huge.  But maybe you like that part of it when you eat it.  The bottom was perfect.    You should not be stretching and folding before you make the pie.  You do that after you take it out of the mixer.   

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #67 on: February 27, 2021, 02:59:55 PM »
Nice job, much better!

I don't remember, do you have the option to bake inside a kitchen oven? Top heat in the grill is tough.

Any chance you took the temp of the underside of your upper stone? Just a thought, I never tried this, but if the upper stone isn't getting heat, maybe you could pre-heat with the upper stone only, then add the lower stone and preheat that. It's a bunch of steps, but the grill may require creativity.

Matt

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #68 on: February 27, 2021, 03:04:12 PM »
Too Much cheese?  How much did you use.   
I use 8oz when I make these pies.

Cheese could have cooked more and the conicone would be darker. 
Never new there was an official word for that curst. :P

But for NY you should not have a cornicone that huge.  But maybe you like that part of it when you eat it. 

I agree it should not be that large, but my wife and I actually really liked. Still wouln't mind if it were a tad bit smaller, but pleasantly surprised with it.


You should not be stretching and folding before you make the pie. 

My concern is that the dough was stretching out faster than I could control it but will keep that in mind next time.
I think the conicone would definitely not have been so large if I did that.

Can you explain what occurs to the dough by doing what I did?
I would like to understand what happened.

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #69 on: February 27, 2021, 03:07:45 PM »
Nice job, much better!

I don't remember, do you have the option to bake inside a kitchen oven? Top heat in the grill is tough.

Any chance you took the temp of the underside of your upper stone? Just a thought, I never tried this, but if the upper stone isn't getting heat, maybe you could pre-heat with the upper stone only, then add the lower stone and preheat that. It's a bunch of steps, but the grill may require creativity.

The upper is actually a stainless steel cookie sheet.

Two concerns with that.
1 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I suspect by the time the lower stone gets heated up, the upper would have come back down significant in temperature.

2 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I thought stones have the potential to crack if heated too quickly.

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Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #70 on: February 27, 2021, 03:14:17 PM »
The upper is actually a stainless steel cookie sheet.

Two concerns with that.
1 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I suspect by the time the lower stone gets heated up, the upper would have come back down significant in temperature.

2 - If I cooked the upper first then inserted the lower stone, I thought stones have the potential to crack if heated too quickly.

If #1 is a problem it would prove that what you're currently doing isn't working for the upper. Though I didn't realize it was a cookie sheet.

I dont think #2 is an issue. Maybe if the stone is cold, but in Florida I don't think that'd be an issue. I've blasted my stone with the Blackstone (which is basically a blowtorch) and never had a problem.

I agree letting it cook longer could only help. If needed you could drop the stone temp a bit to let it go longer.

Matt

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #71 on: February 27, 2021, 03:22:44 PM »

I agree letting it cook longer could only help. If needed you could drop the stone temp a bit to let it go longer.

Today's temp was 600.
What would be the recommended temp?
Would 500 be too low or just drop 50 degrees at a time?

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #72 on: February 27, 2021, 03:35:24 PM »
Comes down to preference, but I like 500 myself. It's not too low.

Matt

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #73 on: February 27, 2021, 03:35:38 PM »
Quick recap of Ingredients used for this weeks pie.
KA Bread Flour (12.7%) : 205g
00 Flour                          100g     <----Used left over 00 Flour to used it up.
Water             186g
Sugar                 6g
Yeast               .94g
Salt                    5g
Oil                      9g

Dough
Grabbed the dough out of the bowl and and all started stretching out.
My first thought was "Damn, this is what happened last week when the pie came out so flat."
Thought maybe the bowl was coated with too much oil or the oil used on top was too much.
It was a becoming a mess quickly so (no idea of the technical term) folded the dough, pushed with the heel of my hand and did this a dozen of so times.
Some sort of metamorphosis of the dough occurred. It became a bit firmer with each fold and push.
Eventually the dough became very elastic and it took longer than usual to make it into a pie.

QUESTION : Who can explain the above and why it went from basically melting in my hand to very elastic? Is there an extra step I should be doing with the dough for which I am unaware? Is this fold and push part of the pre-pie ritual? I would always take from the bowl and start the pie formation.
AtHomePizza,

Can you clarify something for me?  When you reworked the dough (about a dozen times or so) was that just before you used it to make the pizza?

Peter

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #74 on: February 27, 2021, 04:17:25 PM »
AtHomePizza,

Can you clarify something for me?  When you reworked the dough (about a dozen times or so) was that just before you used it to make the pizza?

Peter

Yes, because when I first pulled it out of the bowl and held it in my hand it was like it was melting and dripping down the sides of my hand <---slight exaggeration but you get the picture.
Tried holding up the dough by the edge but it was stretching out so quickly I couldn't move the dough fast enough.
It was a mess so I rolled it all back in a ball and "reworked the dough" after which it became very elastic and now I had to work extra hard to get it stretched out.

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Offline Fiorot

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #75 on: February 27, 2021, 04:34:57 PM »
8 oz is plenty for a 16 inch pie.  Dough Ball was correct for a NY 16 inch pie but you did not stretch it to that size with the conicone you like, so it appears to me a bit too much cheese.  You should see some sauce in between not just a solid layer of cheese.  But hey if you like a lot of cheese go for it.   So to me sometimes you try to recreate a certain type of pizza , in this case NY, and in other cases you make a pie you like to eat and not worry too much about recreating.    I have spent 4 years here reading, questioning , learning and trying all sorts of suggestions. I now am very comfortable making a NY Pie.  If you are serious about a recreation then that takes lots of time studying and attempts.   Here is a picture of my  Neapolitan Pie made for the first time last month.     

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #76 on: February 27, 2021, 04:53:15 PM »
Yes, because when I first pulled it out of the bowl and held it in my hand it was like it was melting and dripping down the sides of my hand <---slight exaggeration but you get the picture.
Tried holding up the dough by the edge but it was stretching out so quickly I couldn't move the dough fast enough.
It was a mess so I rolled it all back in a ball and "reworked the dough" after which it became very elastic and now I had to work extra hard to get it stretched out.
AtHomePizza,

What you experienced is a classic rookie mistake. When you reworked the dough, you toughened the gluten structure and that made the dough elastic and hard to form into a skin. The proper approach is to let the dough relax for a few hours AT room temperature before attempting to use the dough to make a pizza. That method is called tempering the dough. Technically, according to the late Tom Lehmann, the temperature of the dough should be around 50-55F but he allowed for a higher temperature in a home setting, such as 60F. In extreme cases, the temper time might be around four or five hours but around 2-3 hours is quite common.

Here are some posts by Tom on the subject:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14600.msg145534;topicseen#msg145534

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144862#msg144862

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61025.msg610038#msg610038

Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603656#msg603656

You will note that I capitalized AT in my comments above. That is something that Tom did very often. For example, when I did a search of Tom's posts today, I found that Tom capitalized AT seventy-five times out of a hundred posts where he use the expression "temper at room temperature". The real number is actually higher because the forum's search function cut off the number of posts at one hundred. The reason why Tom capitalized AT so many times was because a lot of people would let their dough temper TO room temperature. That would typically make the dough too extensible (overly stretchy) and difficult to handle.

Peter

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #77 on: February 27, 2021, 05:15:13 PM »
AtHomePizza,

What you experienced is a classic rookie mistake. When you reworked the dough, you toughened the gluten structure and that made the dough elastic and hard to form into a skin. The proper approach is to let the dough relax for a few hours AT room temperature before attempting to use the dough to make a pizza. That method is called tempering the dough. Technically, according to the late Tom Lehmann, the temperature of the dough should be around 50-55F but he allowed for a higher temperature in a home setting, such as 60F. In extreme cases, the temper time might be around four or five hours but around 2-3 hours is quite common.

Here are some posts by Tom on the subject:

Reply 4 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14600.msg145534;topicseen#msg145534

Reply 1 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14407.msg144862#msg144862

Reply 5 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=61025.msg610038#msg610038

Reply 19 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=60027.msg603656#msg603656

You will note that I capitalized AT in my comments above. That is something that Tom did very often. For example, when I did a search of Tom's posts today, I found that Tom capitalized AT seventy-five times out of a hundred posts where he use the expression "temper at room temperature". The real number is actually higher because the forum's search function cut off the number of posts at one hundred. The reason why Tom capitalized AT so many times was because a lot of people would let their dough temper TO room temperature. That would typically make the dough too extensible (overly stretchy) and difficult to handle.

Peter

Thanks for the explanation.
Will monitor the dough ball temperature next time.
Today it was out 3 hours prior to pizza making in a house @77 degrees.
Can anyone calculate temperature loss to estimate the dough ball temp?? 8)

The following did catch me by surprise as I would have expected the warmer it got the easier it was to stretch.

...just remember that the higher the dough temperature the more difficult it can be to open if you are not proficient at opening a dough ball into a skin.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline hammettjr

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #78 on: February 27, 2021, 05:33:49 PM »
Took me a while to learn about at RT vs to RT.

My dough sits out only 45 minutes in a 69 degree house and it becomes 51 degrees and opens nicely.

Note that you're getting a good amount of fermentation in those 3 hours. So when you reduce the warm up time you may need more yeast. Gotta love all the variables!

« Last Edit: February 27, 2021, 05:38:53 PM by hammettjr »
Matt

Offline AtHomePizza

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Re: Two more pies up for review. Made progress, and have more questions.
« Reply #79 on: February 27, 2021, 07:29:13 PM »
When the dough sort of stretches itself out, is that a good sign or bad sign?

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