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Author Topic: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.  (Read 5945 times)

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Offline jsaras

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #40 on: April 26, 2021, 12:26:27 PM »
I'm still not sure what kind of pizza you want to make.  If you're chasing a NY pizza, the 13% flour is unquestionably the right choice.  If you want to make a Neapolitan pizza baked at 900F, then neither flour is ideal.
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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2021, 12:33:51 PM »
I'm still not sure what kind of pizza you want to make.  If you're chasing a NY pizza, the 13% flour is unquestionably the right choice.  If you want to make a Neapolitan pizza baked at 900F, then neither flour is ideal.

I want to make a NY pizza - the first pizza I made was with the all-purpose flour (13%) protein. I was told I need to use bread flour instead and sought it out and purchased it - only to find out that it has a lower protein content.

Is there anything that makes bread flour inherently better than all-purpose flour for NY pizza besides the protein content?


Ultimately, my question is do i still with the all purpose flour or make the pizza with the new bread flour?

Offline jsaras

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2021, 12:41:29 PM »
Just use your original flour.  If you don't want to waste your lower protein "bread" flour you could blend the two flours (I'd use 25% or less).
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Offline Anton1

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2021, 07:31:34 PM »
I want to make a NY pizza - the first pizza I made was with the all-purpose flour (13%) protein. I was told I need to use bread flour instead and sought it out and purchased it - only to find out that it has a lower protein content.

Is there anything that makes bread flour inherently better than all-purpose flour for NY pizza besides the protein content?


Ultimately, my question is do i still with the all purpose flour or make the pizza with the new bread flour?

Have you considered boosting the protein percent of either flour by the addition of VWG?

The chart shown at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245 gives a range of protein percent increase for some common brands of VWG.

anton1
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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2021, 07:45:44 PM »
Have you considered boosting the protein percent of either flour by the addition of VWG?

The chart shown at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=4252.msg631245#msg631245 gives a range of protein percent increase for some common brands of VWG.

anton1

I do not recommend doing this, as it complicates the dough-making process and is an additional cost. It doesn't make sense to spend $8-$15 for VWG to upgrade a cheap bag of flour. Even good flours are quite cheap and easy to find. I'd recommend heading to a restaurant supply store and picking up a medium-size sack of high-gluten flour. I was able to find a 25-lb. bag of Grain Craft Power Flour at a local store for $10.75. Might as well get good kitchen equipment while you're there too. Supermarkets just don't carry a lot of the good stuff we're looking for.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2021, 07:49:17 PM by TurkeyOnRye »

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #45 on: April 26, 2021, 07:50:51 PM »
I do not recommend doing this, as it complicates the dough-making process and is an additional cost. It doesn't make sense to spend $8-$15 for VWG to upgrade a cheap bag of flour. Even good flours are quite cheap and easy to find. I'd recommend heading to a restaurant supply store and picking up a medium-size sack of high-gluten flour. I was able to find a 25-lb. bag of Grain Craft Power Flour at a local store for $10.75.
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #46 on: April 26, 2021, 08:01:15 PM »
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter

Ah, yes. That does make things more difficult. I don't know his specific location, but there appear to be restaurant supply stores in the region according to Google Maps.

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2021, 02:01:53 PM »
Thank you both. I have been conducting extensive research on this forum and I'm planning my next bake soon. Some further questions.

1. This is the stone I use in my oven ( the only stone I could find here)... I wonder is it to thick? https://www.hardwareandtools.com/omaha-bbq-37239-stone-pizza-bgka-2676.html

2. I have bought a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G. this is the dough recipe I plan on using, can i have your thoughts?:

    Grams
Flour(100%)   235.43
Water(63%)   148.32
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)   0.94
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)   4.71
Olive Oil (2%)   4.71
Sugar (0.8%)   1.88
Total (168.2%)   396
Single Ball (1 balls total)   396

My dough looks and handled much better using this recipe and the scale!

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2021, 02:03:28 PM »
Ah, yes. That does make things more difficult. I don't know his specific location, but there appear to be restaurant supply stores in the region according to Google Maps.
I looked around and saw this but Iím not paying $13 for  this small bag of flour lol. I presume there is a price mark up from the USA.

Offline [email protected]

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help
« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2021, 09:21:08 AM »
Chronic, not sure if my advice will help, but maybe a fellow newbie here can relate to your struggles. First off, spend enough time here and you will be making better pizza in short order. This place has taken my pies from crap to what I used to taste as a kid in Brooklyn.

I arrived here via a site that lays out the basics very well, so well in fact, that despite everything I pour through now around here, I still go back and reread now and again, just to be sure Iím not missing anything else. This gal credits getting her pie dialed in with assistance from the experts here at pizzamaking.com and The Dough Doctor. Follow her steps and suggestions and recipe and you canít help but make better pie.
https://feelingfoodish.com/the-best-new-york-style-pizza-dough/

It also freezes great. I use these Rubbermaid containers, make four doughs at time, cold ferment them a couple of days and freeze or use that week as planned. https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0011144CC/?tag=pmak-20

Second: Sauce, so important for flavor, but too much ruins everything. I definitely wouldnít add more, thin to win is the way to go if you have the appropriate thickness of crust and the right amount of cheese. Too much of either is no good.

I use a super simple sauce that is so much better with jsarasí simple microwave extraction spicing. Tried both of his versions, the simple version is definitely the way to go. Find that process on page 1 of this thread, but read the complete thread for tips on getting it right in your microwave. https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=38976.0

My sauce recipe: 1 28 oz can tomato sauce, 1 6 oz can of tomato paste and jsarasí simple spice extraction: 1-2 TB olive oil, 1-2 tsp oregano and 1 clove crushed garlic, (jsaras calls for 1/2, but I just use the whole clove and itís perfect). Stir it all together, donít forget to add the salt, donít heat it, just let it meld together over night in fridge.

Cheese, definitely whole milk, low moisture (fresh is too wet). I use Galbani, and love the mild salty flavor it has, but realize your options may be limited on cheese.

I bring everything to room temp while I heat my stone. Just bought a bigger one and I give it a full two hour heat up, my oven is 500 max.

The dough recipe works great with KABF. On advice here, I have switched to ATBB, All Trumps Bleached and Bromated, itís perfect, but need to buy in 25# sack, so might be too much for you to store. Wife bought me a 25# sack for Valentineís Day, and Iím just about ready for another. 😃

Hereís my last pie from Saturday night, definitely my best effort so far, but can always get a little better and a little bigger!




« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 09:45:08 AM by [email protected] »

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Offline stevenfstein

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2021, 10:54:23 AM »
not sure it is a viable solution or what the cost would be but perhaps to get started you could visit a local pizza shop that has a slice that you like and ask them if you can buy some flour. If they agree and it works out well you might be able to just buy 25 lbs of flour from them out of their shipment.

Best... Steve

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2021, 12:49:06 PM »
My dough looks and handled much better using this recipe and the scale!

Here I am two days later after a cold ferment . My dough is on the counter being brought to room temperature.

However, I notice there was large bubbles on the top of the dough ?

Why did this happen and is the dough still safe to use?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2021, 01:18:56 PM »
Here I am two days later after a cold ferment . My dough is on the counter being brought to room temperature.

However, I notice there was large bubbles on the top of the dough ?

Why did this happen and is the dough still safe to use?
Chronic mole,

Without a lot of information as to how the dough was made and fermented, it can be difficult to come up with a diagnosis. However, bubbles are usually not a problem. See, for example, the photo below. That bubble was most likely due to too much yeast (the dough was made using another member's recipe) but it was harmless. I simply pinched the bubble shut and let the dough cold ferment for five days. You can see the finished pizza at Reply 33 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2175.msg19801#msg19801

For another example of a bubble in the dough, one that emerged after about twelve days of cold fermentation, see Reply 29 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg36081#msg36081

I do not know why or how the bubble shown in Reply 29 was formed but it was also harmless.

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2021, 06:16:23 PM »
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

As previously mentioned, I cold fermented two dough balls for ~48 hrs. I then allowed the dough to come to room temperature for 2 hrs. Simultaneously my oven was pre-heating to 550 degrees F. After 2 hrs. I picked up the first dough ball and placed it on a floured surface Ė the dough ball was very soft and thin. It was very difficult to shape because of how thin and soft it was. The first dough ball started to tear as soon as I picked it up to flip over to the other side Ė I had to discard it.

The second dough ball was in the same condition Ė I managed to shape it into something that resembled a pizza skin but it was very thin; there was a small hole but I managed to patch it ( so I thought). I dressed it with sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. It was so thin that it was difficult to get off the peel onto the stone, eventually, I was able to do this but then I realized the patched dough was not really patched and ultimately the pizza sauce began to leak out. It was a complete disaster Ė maybe pizza making isnít for me?

I followed the following recipe for two 15'' pizzas:

Flour(100%)492.9
Water(63%)310.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)2
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)9.9
Olive Oil (2%)9.9
Sugar (1%)4.9
Total (168.4%)830
Single Ball (2 balls total)415

My workflow was:

1.Mix water with salt
2.Pour half of flour in water Ė mix until combined Ė allow to sit for 20 mins.
3.Turn kitchen aid on 1 and slowly add more flour and add Instant yeast.
4.Once all of the flour was added I added the oil, and sugar and continued mixing. Total mix time was about 5 minutes. I then hand kneaded for 30 seconds and formed the dough balls as seen in reply #47.

Offline [email protected]

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2021, 07:50:49 PM »
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

It was a complete disaster Ė maybe pizza making isnít for me?

Donít give up pizza maker. Seriously. Rome wasnít built in a day. 

Take a look at the link I shared and follow the tips and suggestions. Think you will find some good advice for newbie bakers in there and have better results in no time.

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Offline [email protected]

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2021, 08:08:37 PM »
Also, watching video on dough stretching really improved my results.

Norma has a bunch featuring Frank Giaquinto. Donít try the spin in the air part though 😉
https://youtube.com/watch?v=4J5Pvz4XkYk&t=6s

GoodFellas pizza school is helpful https://youtube.com/watch?v=GtAeKM_f2WU&feature=emb_title

And this one also offers some good video to pick up technique. https://youtube.com/watch?v=li7BEwJeocY
« Last Edit: April 29, 2021, 08:14:02 PM by [email protected] »

Offline sal951

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2021, 11:55:33 PM »
Iím so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

Don't be, just have patience and it'll come. I'm a fairly big/strong guy, finesse and using a light touch aren't things which are my strong suit. The first few times I tried to open up a dough ball were utter disasters. Ultimately I was trying to take on too complicated of a technique. I started out with just trying not to screw up gravity stretching the crust, then moved to some more adventurous methods. Now I hand toss them which my kids, niece and nephew all think is the coolest thing ever, and I never break them. It's just leaning the technique, you're going to screw up. Buy your ingredients in bulk and make more than you need. I think when I was really starting to get the hang of things I was making a pizza per night for over a week, it drove my wife crazy - she was so sick of pizza being around, but practice makes perfect. If we were working in restaurants we'd get it in a day or two, but the volume is a little lower in our home kitchens so it just takes some fortitude. Stick to it, you'll get it and then you'll be glad you didn't give up.

Offline [email protected]

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2021, 12:08:52 AM »
Buy your ingredients in bulk and make more than you need. I think when I was really starting to get the hang of things I was making a pizza per night for over a week, it drove my wife crazy - she was so sick of pizza being around, but practice makes perfect. If we were working in restaurants we'd get it in a day or two, but the volume is a little lower in our home kitchens so it just takes some fortitude. Stick to it, you'll get it and then you'll be glad you didn't give up.

This is really good advice. You will learn more stretching a dough and baking a pie every night for a week than spreading it out over a month. Also, make more small pies to start, if you botch it, no big loss, but you will learn something from every attempt.

Offline jsaras

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First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2021, 12:29:21 AM »
Dough handling is a skill acquired over time.  Youíll begin to get the feel for it after doing it 10 or 12 times.  Make a batch of 6 dough balls and stretch them back to back. 

Holes can be fixed using some bench flour and pinching them closed, but thin spots are tricky.  Sometimes you can lay salami down before you apply the sauce, so it creates a barrier from the moisture.  Or, you can go cheese first and put the sauce on top in a stripe or circular pattern, or dollops.

This video is terrific, just ignore the part about using a screen.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 12:33:25 AM by jsaras »
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Offline stevenfstein

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #59 on: April 30, 2021, 05:15:54 AM »
what was the diameter of your pie? How big are you trying to stretch it to?

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