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Author Topic: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.  (Read 2653 times)

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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #80 on: May 09, 2021, 07:09:39 PM »
I have baked with this flour many times before and have had good results. In fact, in 2016 I inquired with customer service to see if I could get a more exact answer to what the protein content of their flour is. Here is their response:

Thank you for contacting Bobís Red Mill.

Our Artisan Bread Flour contains 12.5-15.00% protein.

Feel free to contact us with any additional questions.

Have a wonderful day!


Amber Olson
Customer Service
Bobís Red Mill Natural Foods
1-800-349-2173


Thanks for this! I would also appreciate your responses to the questions I posed to you above.

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #81 on: May 09, 2021, 09:54:38 PM »
Thanks for this! I would also appreciate your responses to the questions I posed to you above.

Ah! Good thing you said something. I overlooked that post.

1. Based on my recipe do you think Iím using the right amount of yeast to sustain a 72hr ferment?

I use half the quantity of yeast that you are using in my recipe and I know that my recipe will stretch out to 8 days or more in the fridge. So I would be willing to bet that you could do 3 days. Only one way to find out though.

2. Working with high hydration dough is a bit intimidating - even at 63% the dough was so soft and tough to handle - any advice in this regard ?

High hydration doughs require a different shaping philosophy than low hydration doughs. Use the stickiness to your advantage. After mixing my dough, I avoid using bench flour to maintain the established hydration level and to make it possible to do stretch-and-folds on the counter. You can dampen your fingers with cold water to prevent the dough from sticking so much to your fingers. A bench scraper is a very handy tool for this job.

Take a look at the "Bench kneading" chapter of this video. He is making bread dough here, but many of the principles are the same. He shows a few stretch-and-folds followed by balling on the countertop, all without using additional flour.   




3. Overall how would you tweak my dough recipe ( including hydration).

I wouldn't tweak the recipe until I saw how it performs with longer fermentations. A good way to experiment with this is to make several doughs and bake one pizza from that batch every day to observe how it changes with age. I would also put a thermometer inside my fridge and watch the temperature for a few days to see how cool it is. My fridge runs about 40F/4.4C.

As always, thank you for your insight .

Iím not sure if my alll purpose flour can handle a 72 hour ferment - the dough was already full of Ďair pocketsí? At the bottom and to the side after 20 hours.

In general, air pockets are a good thing. I would be worried if they weren't developing. It's hard to know to what extent they are developing simply be describing it with words though. I try to aim for a near-doubling in size while in the fridge, though the dough is perfectly usable even before that. Here are some pictures of one of my doughs at day 6 in the fridge using 0.18% yeast.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 10:04:21 PM by TurkeyOnRye »

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #82 on: May 23, 2021, 06:57:47 PM »
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour

I used this flour and increased hydration to 63%. Itís been cold fermenting for 32 hours so far - I was aiming for 72... but based on the open structures on the bottom of the dough Iíve read that this dough is already over fermented ? In this case should I use it ASAP?

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #83 on: May 23, 2021, 10:25:25 PM »
I used this flour and increased hydration to 63%. Itís been cold fermenting for 32 hours so far - I was aiming for 72... but based on the open structures on the bottom of the dough Iíve read that this dough is already over fermented ? In this case should I use it ASAP?
There's no reason I can see just looking at that dough in the container to think that it's overproofed. Large air pockets are not a sign of overfermentation. It's when a dough ball lays more flat and feels slack and mushy that you might safely come to that conclusion. But I'm personally not a big fan of storing dough balls in containers for that very reason; you can't tell for sure looking at the dough from outside the container if it might be overproofed as well as you can if it's laying flat on a plate or a tray and covered with plastic wrap. In a small container, it doesn't have much room to spread out laterally. But that's just my preference. Others will probably disagree.
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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #84 on: May 24, 2021, 10:47:03 PM »
So I made a YouTube video with me opening up my most recent dough ball - it was about 67 hydration so a little delicate. Iíd appreciate some tips on my technique and for someone to explain why my dough looked so thin in parts when I was knuckle stretching and subsequent to.

« Last Edit: May 24, 2021, 10:49:43 PM by Chronic mole »

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #85 on: May 25, 2021, 09:25:36 AM »
So I made a YouTube video with me opening up my most recent dough ball - it was about 67 hydration so a little delicate. Iíd appreciate some tips on my technique and for someone to explain why my dough looked so thin in parts when I was knuckle stretching and subsequent to.


Others here might disagree with me, but I would say that 67% hydration is quite high for NY style. A dough that wet is going to be a bit tricky to handle no matter what, but especially if you're using a flour with much less than 14% protein content, although a good healthy fermentation to build up solid gluten strength will help. I'm not sure of your overall fermentation regimen, but I gather that you're doing CF, or at least letting your dough stay a while in the fridge before using it.  If you're determined to stay in that hydration range, I'd say just make sure you're using flour with a high protein content, and be as gentle as you can when you handle the dough. My recommendation would be to drop your hydration to more like 57%-60% if you're looking to make your dough easier to handle, and that's pretty standard for NY style. Some more recent NY pizzaiolo have been pushing the hydration range upwards, and that's an option you can choose, but just be aware that there's a reason why the standard rate is historically lower.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 09:28:04 AM by RHawthorne »
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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #86 on: May 25, 2021, 10:10:42 AM »
Others here might disagree with me, but I would say that 67% hydration is quite high for NY style. A dough that wet is going to be a bit tricky to handle no matter what, but especially if you're using a flour with much less than 14% protein content, although a good healthy fermentation to build up solid gluten strength will help. I'm not sure of your overall fermentation regimen, but I gather that you're doing CF, or at least letting your dough stay a while in the fridge before using it.  If you're determined to stay in that hydration range, I'd say just make sure you're using flour with a high protein content, and be as gentle as you can when you handle the dough. My recommendation would be to drop your hydration to more like 57%-60% if you're looking to make your dough easier to handle, and that's pretty standard for NY style. Some more recent NY pizzaiolo have been pushing the hydration range upwards, and that's an option you can choose, but just be aware that there's a reason why the standard rate is historically lower.

I appreciate your wise counsel but using a higher hydration was the first time I got the crust to brown - now this could be because I switched to a better quality flour - Bobs Artisan Flour and/ or because I cold fermented for two days.
Any thoughts on why my dough was thin in the middle - Iíd appreciate if you  look at my vid at time stamp 2:11 :2:25
« Last Edit: May 25, 2021, 10:12:39 AM by Chronic mole »

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #87 on: May 25, 2021, 10:11:42 AM »
Pic of the first pizza Iím proud to say I made.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #88 on: May 25, 2021, 12:35:27 PM »
I appreciate your wise counsel but using a higher hydration was the first time I got the crust to brown - now this could be because I switched to a better quality flour - Bobs Artisan Flour and/ or because I cold fermented for two days.
Any thoughts on why my dough was thin in the middle - Iíd appreciate if you  look at my vid at time stamp 2:11 :2:25
I don't think the hydration rate had anything to do with the browning. In fact, if anything, I think lower hydration rates promote browning better because the less moisture there is in the dough, the faster it will evaporate and leave a dryer crust which is more susceptible to darken from heat. Your choice of flour is excellent; my favorite of all the ones available at retail stores.
 As far as why your dough was that thin in the center, it's hard to know for sure just from watching your video. I think it's very possible that you're simply stretching it out further than the gluten strength will allow with that high a hydration rate. I've made bread with that flour at a hydration rate of 68% and was very happy with it. 67% is just a bit high for pizza dough, I think; it's pretty much straddling the line between pizza dough and bread dough. It is possible to make pizza dough at that hydration level, but I wouldn't expect to be able to stretch it out very thinly. More of a medium thinness would be a more realistic goal. Again, dropping your hydration level significantly would help tremendously to achieve your goal, I think. It's just far easier to work with dough in the 58% to 62% hydration range. However, having said all that, I must admit that I have made Jim Lahey's no-knead dough recipe at 70% hydration ( @3% salt) that was not too difficult to work with. Some people sneer at the no-knead method, and I won't say I've made my favorite pizza crusts with it, but it is something to consider doing if you really prefer working at higher hydration levels.
 Aside from all that, dough handling technique is extremely important in determining your final results. That's something that takes time to perfect, and it's not easy to instruct one on how to get better at it with just words. If I were you, I'd hop on YouTube and look up dough handling tutorials and try some different methods. Keep at it until you're where you want to be. It takes a fair amount of time and practice, but you'll get there. Good luck.
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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #89 on: May 25, 2021, 03:57:00 PM »
Pic of the first pizza Iím proud to say I made.

Very nice job.

High hydration doughs are very extensible and sensitive to gravity stretches like you were doing on your knuckles. If the hydration is much higher than 60%, I would recommend bench stretching only. New York pizzerias have very low hydrations and this is why they are able to toss them and knuckle stretch them. This is to make the dough resilient in a commercial setting only. Keeping the hydration high allows the dough to bake more efficiently and results in a more tender and aerated crust. It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.

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Offline pvura

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #90 on: May 25, 2021, 07:22:09 PM »
It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.

Could you please expand on your browning logic? I'm genuinely curious about the relationship between hydration and browning and I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

I have always thought about the relationship between hydration and browning as such:

Higher hydration --> Proportionally more water --> Water doesn't brown with heat
Lower hydration --> Proportionally more flour --> Flour browns with heat

I realize that this might sound like a silly and quite stupid logic but I've actually heard similar reasons from many other experienced pizza makers.

Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #91 on: May 25, 2021, 08:31:55 PM »
Very nice job.

Keeping the hydration high allows the dough to bake more efficiently and results in a more tender and aerated crust. It also helps with browning somewhat because the structure of the dough is less dense and better aerated. You do not need to drop your hydration.
Not to sound rude, but I think what youíre saying here needs quite a bit of clarification, and I donít think that itís always true. Depends on what you mean by Ďefficiencyí and what kind of browning youíre after. Anybody making pizzas in a regular indoor home oven is going to have a much harder time producing a nicely aerated crust with high hydration unless theyíre going for more for a Sicilian style pie, and even then, it helps a lot to par bake the crust first and then top it and put it back in the oven. And as far as the browning is concerned, Iím not at all sure what you mean by the second statement. what exactly are you referring to when youíre relating the structure of the dough to the browning? I guess I could understand what you mean if you were talking about something like a Neapolitan pizza, where the outer rim expands a lot and gives a lot of surface area for leoparding, but with New York style pizza, youíre typically not going to have a huge outer crust and as long as youíre cooking long enough and at a high enough temperature, thereís no reason why you shouldnít be getting decent browning.
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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #92 on: May 25, 2021, 09:01:17 PM »
Could you please expand on your browning logic? I'm genuinely curious about the relationship between hydration and browning and I am not sure I understand your reasoning.

I have always thought about the relationship between hydration and browning as such:

Higher hydration --> Proportionally more water --> Water doesn't brown with heat
Lower hydration --> Proportionally more flour --> Flour browns with heat

I realize that this might sound like a silly and quite stupid logic but I've actually heard similar reasons from many other experienced pizza makers.

Not to sound rude, but I think what youíre saying here needs quite a bit of clarification, and I donít think that itís always true. Depends on what you mean by Ďefficiencyí and what kind of browning youíre after. Anybody making pizzas in a regular indoor home oven is going to have a much harder time producing a nicely aerated crust with high hydration unless theyíre going for more for a Sicilian style pie, and even then, it helps a lot to par bake the crust first and then top it and put it back in the oven. And as far as the browning is concerned, Iím not at all sure what you mean by the second statement. what exactly are you referring to when youíre relating the structure of the dough to the browning? I guess I could understand what you mean if you were talking about something like a Neapolitan pizza, where the outer rim expands a lot and gives a lot of surface area for leoparding, but with New York style pizza, youíre typically not going to have a huge outer crust and as long as youíre cooking long enough and at a high enough temperature, thereís no reason why you shouldnít be getting decent browning.

When the hydration is high, there is greater expansion of the dough, creating a greater surface area with a less dense interior. The result is an aerated dough that is more sensitive to heat. Consider holding a sheet of construction paper up to a flame vs a piece of lens paper. The reason high hydration doughs expand better is because at 212 degrees F, water vaporizes and expands. When water is trapped inside dough, it creates air pockets when exposed to heat that expand the surface area of the dough, i.e. oven spring. It's one of many attributes that contribute to browning.

Take a look at this video of a General Mills rep that has been widely shared around this forum. He discusses hydration and "efficiency" of baking. In the video, he recommends 60% hydration for home bakers, but for more adventurous home bakers, you can certainly push the hydration up to 70% or more.


Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #93 on: May 25, 2021, 11:10:02 PM »


Take a look at this video of a General Mills rep that has been widely shared around this forum. He discusses hydration and "efficiency" of baking. In the video, he recommends 60% hydration for home bakers, but for more adventurous home bakers, you can certainly push the hydration up to 70% or more.


Some of the things heís saying makes sense to me, but then there are others where I think heís making broad generalizations that donít really hold up. And Iíve seen at least one other video of him speaking where he also said some things I found questionable. If what he was saying about high hydration always creating crispy crust was true, then this would hold true for Neapolitan pizzas as well, and this is absolutely not the case. Those kinds of pizzas are anything but crispy.
And as I said before, thereís a reason why New York style pizza has historically always been made with a lower hydration dough. The kind of aeration heís talking about in this video isnít really appropriate for that style, I donít think.
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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #94 on: May 26, 2021, 12:05:20 AM »
Some of the things heís saying makes sense to me, but then there are others where I think heís making broad generalizations that donít really hold up. And Iíve seen at least one other video of him speaking where he also said some things I found questionable. If what he was saying about high hydration always creating crispy crust was true, then this would hold true for Neapolitan pizzas as well, and this is absolutely not the case. Those kinds of pizzas are anything but crispy.
And as I said before, thereís a reason why New York style pizza has historically always been made with a lower hydration dough. The kind of aeration heís talking about in this video isnít really appropriate for that style, I donít think.

I don't agree with everything he says either, but for the most part, what he says is true.

AVPN rules require that Neapolitan pizza be between 55-62% hydration, which is not very high. In any case, there are many other factors that affect crispiness and tenderness other than hydration. However, higher hydration will produce a crust with a more tender aerated interior and a crispier exterior. Of course nothing is absolute, but I have experimented with doughs up to 80% hydration, and for the most part, the generality holds up. There is a tipping point (somewhere in the 70s range) where increases in hydration make the exterior less crisp. The reason I encouraged Chronic Mole to maintain a high hydration is because over the last several weeks, he has expressed interest in obtaining a more crisp, aerated, and tender crust. Whether or not that is in keeping with the New York style I think is beside the point. Not everyone's goal is to produce an archetypal style. Many of us simply post in the forums that most closely represent our intended outcome, even if it isn't a great match.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 12:08:05 AM by TurkeyOnRye »

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Offline RHawthorne

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #95 on: May 26, 2021, 12:40:58 AM »
I don't agree with everything he says either, but for the most part, what he says is true.

AVPN rules require that Neapolitan pizza be between 55-62% hydration, which is not very high. In any case, there are many other factors that affect crispiness and tenderness other than hydration. However, higher hydration will produce a crust with a more tender aerated interior and a crispier exterior. Of course nothing is absolute, but I have experimented with doughs up to 80% hydration, and for the most part, the generality holds up. There is a tipping point (somewhere in the 70s range) where increases in hydration make the exterior less crisp. The reason I encouraged Chronic Mole to maintain a high hydration is because over the last several weeks, he has expressed interest in obtaining a more crisp, aerated, and tender crust. Whether or not that is in keeping with the New York style I think is beside the point. Not everyone's goal is to produce an archetypal style. Many of us simply post in the forums that most closely represent our intended outcome, even if it isn't a great match.
Fair enough. My point isnít that he should be sticking to an archetypal New York style dough formulation per se, or that a higher level of hydration is inherently antiithetical to the goals of this style necessarily. I simply take issue with the idea that a lower hydration dough (and itís subsequent bake)  is somehow Ďinefficientí. If the whole idea of mixing flour with water and throwing that mixture into an oven was simply to force that water to evaporate and give us a finished crust  with a maximum level of aeration, I would agree. But this is not the case. Tim Huff seems to say in the video that a firm dough is somehow undesirable, but nothing could be further from the truth as far as Iím concerned- although, because he's speaking in such a broad sense, itís difficult to discern exactly how he means this. But  this does seem to express a certain disapproval of that body style, either by default or by design on his part . Itís not a design or execution flaw to have a crust with a certain amount of firmness. Thatís the whole idea. We want a certain amount of firmness and chewiness in the finish crust because thatís what helps the crust  hold itís shape and hold up the toppings and keep it from being too soft and flimsy. Keeping the hydration level a bit on the low end and cooking at a temperature thatís not too high is the only way to achieve this effect as far as I know.
Another point I had hoped to make clear, and I think I did, is that the dough  handling techniques employed are also very important in determining the character of the finished crust. Like you said, there are numerous factors that determine what kind of pizza you get at the end of the baking process. It is theoretically possible to make a New York style pizza with a higher hydration dough , but I think that, especially for someone relatively new to the style, or even just new to handling dough by hand in general, it makes more sense to start at the low end of the hydration range to establish a baseline for the physical sensation of handling that dough, and for locking in the muscle memory required to properly execute the techniques necessary to achieve the desired crust. Starting at the high end of the hydration range doesnít really help as much in this regard, in my opinion.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2021, 04:40:36 PM by RHawthorne »
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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #96 on: May 26, 2021, 01:23:19 PM »
Fair enough. My point isnít that he should be sticking to an archetypal New York style dough formulation per se, or that a higher level of hydration is inherently antiithetical to the goals of this style necessarily. I simply take issue with the idea that a lower hydration dough (and itís subsequent bake)  is somehow Ďinefficientí. If the whole idea of mixing flour with water and throwing that mixture into an oven was simply to force that water to evaporate and give us a finished crust  with a maximum level of aeration, I would agree. But this is not the case. Tim Huff seems to say in the video that a firm dough is somehow undesirable, but nothing could be further from the truth as far as Iím concerned- although, because he speaking in such a broad sense, itís difficult to discern exactly how he means by this. But  this does seem to express a certain disapproval of that body style, either by default or by design on his part . Itís not a design or execution flaw to have a crust with a certain amount of firmness. Thatís the whole idea. We want a certain amount of firmness and chewiness in the finish crust because thatís what helps the crust  hold itís shape and hold up the toppings and keep it from being too soft and flimsy. Keeping the hydration level a bit on the low end and cooking at a temperature thatís not too high is the only way to achieve this effect as far as I know.
Another point I had hoped to make clear, and I think I did, is that the dough  handling techniques employed are also very important in determining the character of the finished crust. Like you said, there are numerous factors that determine what kind of pizza you get at the end of the baking process. It is theoretically possible to make a New York style pizza with a higher hydration dough , but I think that, especially for someone relatively new to the style, or even just new to handling dough by hand in general, it makes more sense to start at the low end of the hydration range to establish a baseline for the physical sensation of handling that dough, and for locking in the muscle memory required to properly execute the techniques necessary to achieve the desired crust. Starting at the high end of the hydration range doesnít really help as much in this regard, in my opinion.

By "efficiency", we're referring to how well heat is conducted from the exterior to the interior of the dough. I think it's a suitable term to describe the phenomenon. I can see why you've taken offense though. There are a few pretentious circles of pizza makers that regard lower hydration doughs as inherently inferior, partly because everyone inevitably learns using the lower hydration levels and the high hydration techniques are relatively unfamiliar to most. Having said that, I don't think high hydration doughs are difficult to work with. In fact, they're easier to work with in many respects. It's not exactly an esoteric art that takes years of practice. By learning a few key principles, even beginners can learn fairly quickly. What frustrated me during my learning period was that nobody would tell me all the things that I try to tell beginners today. Lots of beginners desire to achieve great oven spring, a brown exterior, and a tender interior. Back then I wish someone had told me that about 90% of those properties can be boiled down to high heat, high hydration, and generous fermentation.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #97 on: May 26, 2021, 02:15:35 PM »
From time to time over the years, I have cited the work of Tom Lehmann and his related posts on the forum. The issue of hydration, along with other factors, such as degree of crust crispiness and chewiness and tenderness, and also the use of oil in the dough, were covered by Tom both here on the forum and originally at the PMQ Think Tank. Here are some of my posts where I tried to convey Tom's views.

Reply 2 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=52888.msg532503;topicseen#msg532503

Reply 8 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=29378.msg294901#msg294901

Reply 96 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8093.msg74667.html#msg74667

Reply 980 at https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3944.msg70562.html#msg70562

Some of the links to the PMQ Think Tank no longer work due to changes that PMQ made to the Think Tank but maybe I can find the original post in which Tom referenced the term Physics 101.

My own view is that the terms crispy, chewy, tender, and other such terms, are hard to nail down with definitions that everyone can accept. They will vary from one person to another.  I also think that professionals like Tim Huff are prone to the same problem, and maybe even more so because of a greater emphasis on breads rather than pizzas. And the pizzas can come in so many different forms and styles. This is one of the reasons that I tried to guide members with the following excerpt from Reply 8 cited above:

Sometimes, using a lower than normal bake temperature and a greater than normal bake time can lead to a crispier bottom crust but the hydration has to be right. Also, some flours may be better than others. For example, you might have a hard time getting a crispy crust if the flour is low in protein, such as cake flour or pastry flour. A bread flour or high gluten flour might be better but, again, the hydration value has to be right. Usually one has to find the right balance between the flour, its hydration, the bake temperature and the bake time. You also don't want to roll the skin out by a machine, which compresses the skin and makes it dense and lets the bottom heat pass through the skin too fast. You want porosity.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #98 on: May 26, 2021, 02:36:13 PM »
After my last post, I did a search at the PMQ Thin Tank and found a thread in which Tom used the expression Physics 101 in the context of a pizza crust:

https://thinktank.pmq.com/t/2-dough-questions/10102/4

Peter

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #99 on: May 26, 2021, 04:42:09 PM »
My own view is that the terms crispy, chewy, tender, and other such terms, are hard to nail down with definitions that everyone can accept. They will vary from one person to another.  I also think that professionals like Tim Huff are prone to the same problem, and maybe even more so because of a greater emphasis on breads rather than pizzas. And the pizzas can come in so many different forms and styles.

I agree with this to a point. However, I think it is unhelpful to fixate on nuance in the process of guiding beginners because it can be overwhelming and often counterproductive. I think it's important to provide clear guidance and to keep things nice and simple. I think veterans who find themselves in a position of being a teacher find this very difficult to do because in their view (which is not wrong), there are no absolutes and every variable interacts with each and every other variable. As a result, they are often unable to provide straight-forward answers. Beginners will pick up the nuances on their own and discover what the exceptions to the rules are as they progress, so providing them with answers in simple terms is not ultimately a problem. Still, I don't think terms such as "crisp" and "tender" are all that difficult to find consensus with among others. Regarding my discussion with RHawthorne, I believe our discussion was more of a disagreement on what the end-goal should be rather than disagreement about definition.

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