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Author Topic: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.  (Read 3162 times)

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Offline Chronic mole

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Ok so I used this NY recipe I loosely used  i used my kitchen aid - used the dough attachment for about four mins- then I hand kneaded it for about 15. At this point it was difficult to get the dough to stick and form a ball .

I let it rise for about an hour and a half - when I tried to press it out the dough had no stretch to it at all it was tight .. it eventually tore ( big hole) during stretching....

I patched it up a bit but the dough was so tough I could barely form a proper crust .

As you can see it never even browned in the oven... Iím determined to get this right. Iíd appreciate it.

1. Can you tell me where you suspect I went wrong and how to fix it?

2. Recommend a recipe that utilizes a kitchen aid?
« Last Edit: April 17, 2021, 08:19:46 PM by Chronic mole »

Offline texmex

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2021, 07:49:01 AM »
Why did you knead an additional 15 minutes when your KA already did that work?  You forced gluten strands beyond what is needed, and created a very tight rubbery ball.
Reesa

Offline jkb

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2021, 10:39:32 AM »
#1.  You went wrong not following advice here.

#2.  Use a food processor if you have one.
John

Offline pvura

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2021, 01:48:13 PM »
Definitely not an expert here but i can give my thoughts

1. I donít think there is a point in kneading the dough by hand if you have a Kitchenaid to use. I think you can just use the Kitchenaid to knead for about 7-8 mins or so. Using a KA and your hands to knead for 15 mins will overwork the gluten, resulting in a dense and stiff dough. A food processor, as mentioned by jkb, is even better in this case.

2. His recipe calls for standard bread flour. Try using a higher protein flour. If you canít find any in your area, i think king arthurís bread flour might be the next best thing for NY style.

3. Itís practically impossible to get a decent texture with only a 1.5 hour rise. The dough needs to mature and ferment for a long period of time in the cooling. Try refrigerating for at least 24 hrs or so. Formula is 0.2% yeast only so 1.5 hr rise at room temp is nowhere near enough.

4. I see the formula you used is a 63% hydration with roughly 2.5% oil. This gives the dough a roughly 65% total hydration. I might try keeping the oil the same but knock the water back to 58% or so.

5. I didnít do the exact math but this recipe seems to yield a pizza with a 0.1 TF. I might try a 0.085 TF and reduce gradually if you so choose.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2021, 03:35:43 PM »
Chronic mole,

Once you made the dough, did you manage it as shown in the video, including cold fermenting the dough? And did you let the dough balls warm up once they were removed from the refrigerator? Finally, can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, in terms of the type of oven, what you used as a carrier to bake the pizza (such as a pizza stone, baking steel, baking pan or pizza screen), and the bake temperature and time. If you moved the pizza around the oven, or used the broiler, please let us know. I assume that you did not use a Ooni Koda oven but I may be wrong on this.

As a side note, the amount of salt used in the dough in the video is 15/(450 + 50) = 3%. I deem that to be on the high side, and that amount of salt could have toughened the gluten matrix too much. Also, 1/4 teaspoon of IDY weighs about 0.75 grams, or 0.151%. That is not much for a dough that is to cold ferment for two days. The semolina flour will also add a bit more texture to the flour blend and call for a slight increase in hydration, which now stands at 314/500 = 62.5%.

Peter

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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2021, 03:54:32 PM »
Chronic mole,

Once you made the dough, did you manage it as shown in the video, including cold fermenting the dough? And did you let the dough balls warm up once they were removed from the refrigerator? Finally, can you tell us how you baked the pizzas, in terms of the type of oven, what you used as a carrier to bake the pizza (such as a pizza stone, baking steel, baking pan or pizza screen), and the bake temperature and time. If you moved the pizza around the oven, or used the broiler, please let us know. I assume that you did not use a Ooni Koda oven but I may be wrong on this.

As a side note, the amount of salt used in the dough in the video is 15/(450 + 50) = 3%. I deem that to be on the high side, and that amount of salt could have toughened the gluten matrix too much. Also, 1/4 teaspoon of IDY weighs about 0.75 grams, or 0.151%. That is not much for a dough that is to cold ferment for two days. The semolina flour will also add a bit more texture to the flour blend and call for a slight increase in hydration, which now stands at 314/500 = 62.5%.

Peter

Peter,
I did not cold ferment . I let rise at 1.5 room temperature . I baked on a pizza stone pre heated in the oven at
500 F for an hour. I did not use the broiler feature or move the pizza around.based on your questions I messed up bad it seems.

I just ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.1. G... maybe thatíll help

Also, is there any Recipe you can recommend thatíll measure in volume - cups and teaspoon and tablespoons - while I wait for my scale ?

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2021, 04:41:47 PM »
Peter,
I did not cold ferment . I let rise at 1.5 room temperature . I baked on a pizza stone pre heated in the oven at
500 F for an hour. I did not use the broiler feature or move the pizza around based on your questions I messed up bad it seems.

I just ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.1. G... maybe thatíll help

Also, is there any Recipe you can recommend thatíll measure in volume - cups and teaspoon and tablespoons - while I wait for my scale ?
Chronic mole,

Are you interested only in making a dough that can be used within only a few hours at room temperature or are you prepared to make and cold ferment the dough? And does the dough have to be used to make a NY style pizza or do you have something different in mind that you would prefer? It might also help if you can tell us what kind of flour you will be using, in terms of its type (e.g., bread flour) and also its protein content if you know it.

The reason you failed is because the recipe you used is intended to be used to make a cold fermented dough over about two days. A recipe for making what is often called an "emergency" dough (one that can be made and used within a few hours) has much different quantities of ingredients and temperatures.

As for an example that is also recited in volume measurements, you might take a look at a Papa John's clone pizza that I made and discussed in great detail at Reply 20 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg59217#msg59217

The above post also discusses how I made the dough for the PJ clone pizza using my standard KitchenAid stand mixer. I also used a pizza screen although some members have used pizza stones. However, because of the high sugar content in the PJ clone dough, the bottom crust can turn dark fairly quickly and maybe burn if one is not very careful in watching how the bottom crust bakes. Raising the pizza to a higher oven position (without moving the stone) when the bottom crust is at the desired color can help prevent further darkening of the bottom crust.

As you may know, Papa John's has at least one store in the Bahamas ;D.

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2021, 08:18:24 PM »
OK Iím trying this again with a new recipe - a bit of emergency - I canít get my dough ball to be smooth into itself ... itís currently in this form.. what should I do? I have it on the counter in a container

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2021, 02:49:42 PM »
i used my kitchen aid - used the dough attachment for about four mins- then I hand kneaded it for about 15. At this point it was difficult to get the dough to stick and form a ball .

I let it rise for about an hour and a half - when I tried to press it out the dough had no stretch to it at all it was tight .. it eventually tore ( big hole) during stretching....

I patched it up a bit but the dough was so tough I could barely form a proper crust .

As you can see it never even browned in the oven... Iím determined to get this right. Iíd appreciate it.

1. Can you tell me where you suspect I went wrong and how to fix it?

2. Recommend a recipe that utilizes a kitchen aid?

As a novice baker/pizza-maker, you need to follow recipes exactly. Until you've mastered a dough recipe, I would avoid recipe modifications and experimentation altogether. It is a...recipe...for failure. When you are ready to experiment, change only one thing at a time. This will help you learn. If you change more than one thing at a time, you will slow the learning process.

I would suggest starting with a recipe containing only these 4 ingredients: Flour, Water, Salt, Yeast. These are the absolute essential primal ingredients of pizza dough. All other ingredients are flare and are non-essential. Skip the extras like semolina, oil, sugar etc., at least for now. These extras complicate the process and create additional opportunities for measurement error. A flour/water/salt/yeast-only dough is easy to incorporate and honestly, with the right fermentation, can rival most any other pizza dough recipe.

Try this recipe. I've put the salt and yeast ingredients in teaspoons for ease of measurement since it sounds like you don't have a 0.01g scale. Combine the dry ingredients little-by-little with all of the water and mix in your stand mixer with a dough hook until juuuust incorporated. Turn out onto a lightly-floured surface, knead the dough a couple times just to get it together and form into a smooth ball. Remember, it is better to underwork the dough than overwork it! Let rise at room temperature (about 70F) until doubled in size (Probably about 1-2 hours). Divide into four dough balls, place into oiled containers, and cold ferment in the fridge for a few days.

Flour   788g   100%
Water   473g   60%
Salt   3 tsp     2.1%
IDY   1 tsp   0.4%


« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 03:03:36 PM by TurkeyOnRye »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2021, 03:22:42 PM »

Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter

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Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2021, 03:30:57 PM »
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter

I got the same impression as well. Though I suspect such a mistake would be impossible to verify. My overall impression was that he/she is very green and needs to simplify the process.

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2021, 04:29:24 PM »
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us what ingredients you used to make the dough, whether by weight or by volume? From your photos, I would say that the hydration you are using is too low, and that may have made your dough too stiff.

Peter

I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2021, 04:40:13 PM »
I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.

Do you have kitchen scales? Weighing your ingredients will help eliminate variability.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2021, 04:45:27 PM »
I used the simple NY recipe in the recipe section of this website. The ingredients are in volume. I had to use All Purpose Flour though.
Chronic mole,

Is this the recipe you used?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

Or is it this one?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

In either case, other than the flour, did you change the recipe in any way, including the mixing and kneading methods? And can you tell us how you got the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup?

Peter


Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2021, 06:58:45 PM »
Chronic mole,

Is this the recipe you used?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

Or is it this one?:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/newyorkstyle.php

In either case, other than the flour, did you change the recipe in any way, including the mixing and kneading methods? And can you tell us how you got the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup?

Peter
I used the latter.

Other than the flour I only used the dough attachment on my kitchen aid . 2 mins on setting 1 pre oil once I incorporated the oil I went on setting 2 for 3 mins and then I hand kneaded for 1 minute.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2021, 07:02:27 PM »
I used the latter.

Other than the flour I only used the dough attachment on my kitchen aid . 2 mins on setting 1 pre oil once I incorporated the oil I went on setting 2 for 3 mins and then I hand kneaded for 1 minute.
And how did you get the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup? What I am trying to determine is the baker's percents for the dough recipe you used.

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2021, 07:05:33 PM »
Here are the results of my second pizza. Overall I think itís better than the first.

1. Iíve ordered a digital scale accurate to 0.01 G so I will measure my ingredients by weight moving forward.

2. I believe I should have used more sauce. I believe that is evident?

3. I need to figure out how to ge the crust to brown without burning the cheese. I tired this method where I pre baked the dough and just sauce for a while and then took it out and added cheese. What happened was a giant bubble formed in the dough pre cheese and it looked like a pita. Can someone assist me in this regard?

5. I believe the crust is too thick? I should have made it smaller?

6. Open to any other comments, criticisms, and suggestions .

7. I should add I added a lil extra fresh mozzarella at the end ( it wasnít melted at the time of this pic).
« Last Edit: April 18, 2021, 07:13:46 PM by Chronic mole »

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please.
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2021, 07:06:56 PM »
And how did you get the flour from the bag or other storage container into the cup? What I am trying to determine is the baker's percents for the dough recipe you used.

Peter

I used a spoon - shook off excessive flour and poured it into the cup and then leveled it off with the back of a knife:

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2021, 07:30:08 PM »
Chronic mole,

Maybe you have already told us but did you cold ferment the dough and, if so, for how long before you removed the dough from the refrigerator? And did you let the dough rest for a while before using it to make the pizza?

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2021, 07:32:22 PM »
Chronic mole,

Maybe you have already told us but did you cold ferment the dough and, if so, for how long before you removed the dough from the refrigerator? And did you let the dough rest for a while before using it to make the pizza?

Peter

Cold fermented the dough for 22  hrs and I let the dough rest at room temperature for 3 hours before using it.

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