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Author Topic: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.  (Read 4889 times)

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Offline jkb

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #60 on: April 30, 2021, 05:31:46 AM »
TurkeyOnRye,

Chronic mole is in the Bahamas and may not have a lot of flour options. He also may not have a source of vital wheat gluten.

Peter

No gluten?  Man, the Bahamas suck!  Of course, you shouldn't eat pizza if you want to maintain your beach body.


John

Offline texmex

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #61 on: April 30, 2021, 08:07:16 AM »
what was the diameter of your pie? How big are you trying to stretch it to?


As stated,  two 15 inch pies, 415 grams each.


Which brand of Bahamas flour was this last batch?  I see "OK flour" brand and 5 roses as common all purpose flour available for food industry and beyond in that locale.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2021, 08:36:47 AM by texmex »
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Offline [email protected]

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #62 on: April 30, 2021, 09:21:35 AM »
Chronic, just reread this entire thread and something occurred to me. Your initial dough ball on page 3 looked primo, but after coming to room temp you had big bubbles that gave you grief.

My thought was Room Temperature, that’s a pretty generic term. I live in Colorado and my kitchen temperature is in the 60s a good percentage of the year, but you are in the Bahamas at 85-90 room temp. That’s a huge difference. I maybe wouldn’t take room temperature quite so literally in your case and might say instead, “take the chill out” as I’m guessing your dough warms up in about an hour.

Somebody mentioned 55-60 degrees F as a workable dough temperature. In my limited experience, dough I have let warm too long is tougher to work with than if it still feels a bit cool to my fingertips. When slightly cool it’s still quite elastic and extensible, but not as quick to get overly thin spots or tears.

Just a thought, sure others will weigh in.

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #63 on: April 30, 2021, 12:14:03 PM »
Dough handling is a skill acquired over time.  You’ll begin to get the feel for it after doing it 10 or 12 times.  Make a batch of 6 dough balls and stretch them back to back. 

Holes can be fixed using some bench flour and pinching them closed, but thin spots are tricky.  Sometimes you can lay salami down before you apply the sauce, so it creates a barrier from the moisture.  Or, you can go cheese first and put the sauce on top in a stripe or circular pattern, or dollops.

This video is terrific, just ignore the part about using a screen.


The issue is - I'm not sure if my dough handling or stretching was the issue - on my second attempt I was able to stretch and handle the dough easily -- I believe there was some deficiency in my dough making process itself.

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #64 on: April 30, 2021, 12:16:52 PM »
I'm just confused as to why my dough balls looked much better this time but they never 'firmed up' even after 48 hour cold fermentation and remained 'soft'. It was so soft and thin.

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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #65 on: April 30, 2021, 12:20:17 PM »

As stated,  two 15 inch pies, 415 grams each.


Which brand of Bahamas flour was this last batch?  I see "OK flour" brand and 5 roses as common all purpose flour available for food industry and beyond in that locale.

This brand https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/robin-hood-original-all-purpose-flour-25kg/6000016955603

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #66 on: April 30, 2021, 12:21:37 PM »
Don’t give up pizza maker. Seriously. Rome wasn’t built in a day. 

Take a look at the link I shared and follow the tips and suggestions. Think you will find some good advice for newbie bakers in there and have better results in no time.

[email protected],

I appreciate your encouragement and advice!

Offline texmex

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #67 on: April 30, 2021, 12:31:17 PM »
This brand https://www.walmart.ca/en/ip/robin-hood-original-all-purpose-flour-25kg/6000016955603


I used that brand many years ago with no problems.
I think MileHigh may be correct about ambient room temps.  I live in an extremely hot location and sometimes I need to put my room temps back in the fridge because they are just getting blown out with bubbles too fast.  Alternately, you can use an ice chest with a frozen bottle of water or 2 to keep a slightly cool environment for your dough that is not as cold as the fridge, or as hot as your house.  Keep trying, you will get there. Opening up dough balls takes patience to get the feel for it.
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2021, 01:17:23 PM »
I’m so disappointed and discouraged with my third attempt.

As previously mentioned, I cold fermented two dough balls for ~48 hrs. I then allowed the dough to come to room temperature for 2 hrs. Simultaneously my oven was pre-heating to 550 degrees F. After 2 hrs. I picked up the first dough ball and placed it on a floured surface – the dough ball was very soft and thin. It was very difficult to shape because of how thin and soft it was. The first dough ball started to tear as soon as I picked it up to flip over to the other side – I had to discard it.

The second dough ball was in the same condition – I managed to shape it into something that resembled a pizza skin but it was very thin; there was a small hole but I managed to patch it ( so I thought). I dressed it with sauce, cheese, and pepperoni. It was so thin that it was difficult to get off the peel onto the stone, eventually, I was able to do this but then I realized the patched dough was not really patched and ultimately the pizza sauce began to leak out. It was a complete disaster – maybe pizza making isn’t for me?

I followed the following recipe for two 15'' pizzas:

Flour(100%)492.9
Water(63%)310.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)2
Morton's Kosher Salt (2%)9.9
Olive Oil (2%)9.9
Sugar (1%)4.9
Total (168.4%)830
Single Ball (2 balls total)415

My workflow was:

1.Mix water with salt
2.Pour half of flour in water – mix until combined – allow to sit for 20 mins.
3.Turn kitchen aid on 1 and slowly add more flour and add Instant yeast.
4.Once all of the flour was added I added the oil, and sugar and continued mixing. Total mix time was about 5 minutes. I then hand kneaded for 30 seconds and formed the dough balls as seen in reply #47.
Chronic mole,

Looking at the quoted material, I have a few suggestions to offer.

Starting with the flour, the Robin Hood all purpose flour that you used has a protein content of 12%:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=13365.msg132309#msg132309

Because you are using an all purpose flour, even though Canadian flours tend to have higher protein values than comparable U.S., flours, most such flours have a typical rated absorption value of around 60%. Also, the 2% oil that you are using also has a wetting effect on the dough. So, the combined wetting effect is 63% + 2% = 65%. Often, as a starting point, the late Tom Lehmann would suggest that one use a combined oil and water percent that is equal to the rated absorption value of the flour, and thereafter adjust the hydration by 2% amounts if needed. So, I suggest that you reduce the hydration of your dough to around 60%, but leave the oil percent alone. The temperature of the water should be selected to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 70F.

I also suggest that you combine the flour, IDY and sugar, but still dissolve the salt in the formula water. I would also skip the 20 minute step. The oil should continue to be added after the dough pulls away from sides of the mixer bowl during kneading. Because I feel that a roughly 5 minute knead time may be on the low side, you might want to take a look at one of Tom's videos linked below to get a better feel for the total amount of kneading.

To help you get more practice in handling the dough, I suggest that you use a larger dough ball weight, using a larger thickness factor of 0.10. That is a value that I have used for years, in a home setting. On this basis, the dough ball for a 15" pizza size would be 3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5 x 0.10 = 17.67 ounces, or 17.67 x 28.35 = 501 grams. That number can safely be rounded to 500 grams.

Making the above changes should give you a dough that is easier to handle than the dough made from the recipe you posted. If that turns out to be true, you can always gradually reduce the dough ball weight over time to the point where you feel most comfortable.

As for when you use the dough when it comes out of the refrigerator, you should not let it warm up TO room temperature. It should be allowed to warm up AT room temperature and until the inner temperature of the dough is around 60F, or maybe a bit warmer. Typically, that is about 1.5-2 hours but may be even sooner if your room temperature is above average.

Normally I suggest that changes be made one at a time so as to be able to see and assess the effects of each change. But, in your case, you might try the changes I suggested and hope that we can assess your overall results and be able to offer other suggestions.

Here is the video I mentioned above:



Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #69 on: May 09, 2021, 02:19:06 PM »
Probably my best attempt so far. Dough handled really well - I need to invest in a proper peel though - I’ve been basically sliding it into the oven off a piece of floured cardboard which resulted in sauce all over the crust.


For the life of me, though - I can’t seem to get my crust to be soft and airy and brown - it’s always hard- how do I fix this . This was a 24 hour ferment.

Flour(100%)270.84
Water(60%)162.5
Instant Dry Yeast (0.4%)1.08
Morton's Kosher Salt (1.75%)4.74
Olive Oil (2%)5.42
Sugar (2%)5.42
Total (166.15%)450
Single Ball (1 balls total)450

Mix protocol -
1. Add salt and sugar to water and stir in bowl
2 add all of the flour and idy - mix 2 mins on stir
3. Incorporate oil and mix 2 more mins  on stir
4. Mix 3 mins on stir and hand knead for 1 min.
5 . Ball dough and place in lightly oiled bowl - cold ferment for 26 hours.
6. Bring to room temperature for 40 mins ( works due to my climate).
7. Stretch and dress with cheese sauce and pepperoni.
8. Slide on stone that had been pre hearing at 550 for 1.5 hours at bottom rack for 6 mins then finish on top rack with broiler on for 3 mins.

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #70 on: May 09, 2021, 02:43:55 PM »
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us the size of the pizza you made?

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #71 on: May 09, 2021, 02:56:44 PM »
Chronic mole,

Can you tell us the size of the pizza you made?

Peter

it was 15"

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #72 on: May 09, 2021, 03:38:43 PM »
For the life of me, though - I can’t seem to get my crust to be soft and airy and brown - it’s always hard- how do I fix this . This was a 24 hour ferment.

Based on my experience, fermentation is the primary contributor to tenderness. There is a direct relationship between length of the fermentation and tenderness of the end-product. And the effect is obvious. Using my recipe, a same-day dough is extremely tough and 1-dimensional in flavor. 24-hours is better, but still very chewy and flavorless. 48-hours is better, but still not quite where I want it. After 72-hours, fermentation starts to make a real impression. And after 4 days, the end-product becomes very good, with fermentations in excess being exceptional.

24 hours isn't very long for a cold fermentation. Of course the amount of time your dough can tolerate fermentation is dependent on the starting quantity of yeast. The digestive enzymes in the dough need time to do their work. Too much starting yeast will end up inflating the dough before enzymes and other metabolic agents have enough time to digest the flour. Thus, choosing a starting quantity of yeast is almost synonymous with balancing the desired length of the fermentation. Have you ever eaten cooked dough that has not been allowed to ferment? It's tough, dense, and will give you a stomach ache. This is why emergency doughs have so much yeast and why they taste like crap. Having said all that, I think the amount of yeast you are using is fine. I think you could definitely push the fermentation out to 72-hours, if not longer. Also very important is ensuring that you are working with a dough that is well-proofed before stretching and taking care to not push out too much air.

Hydration and heat also make a big impact. Pizza dough cooks more efficiently with a higher hydration. And the faster the heat is applied to the dough, the more ovenspring you will get. Stones are ok, but steels are much better. Seriously, they make a big difference and they do not get enough credit. One of the mistakes I see newcomers make all the time is focusing too much on the minor stuff. Like oven rack placement, protein content, etc...meanwhile ignoring the major points like hydration, fermentation, and cooking with the right equipment. For me when I was a new pizza baker, failing on these points came down to being afraid of working with high hydration doughs, not wanting to spend the money on a steel, and being too impatient to ferment the dough long enough. In my opinion, those three simple things—long fermentation, high hydration, and sudden heat using steel—give us the best shot at the desired outcome in the woefully-inadequate home oven that most of us are working with.

Oh, and regarding browning...

Fermentation will help slightly with that also. Not much though. Many accomplished pizzaiolos recommend using a browning agent such as diastatic malt powder. Again, the home oven is just inadequate. However, you should get a fair bit of browning if you're using a broiler. It looks like you have quite a bit of flour left on the cornice. Try minimizing the amount of flour on the cornice as much as you can without sacrificing your dough's mobility, and that should help. Still dissatisfied? Brush the cornice lightly with olive oil before the bake.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2021, 03:46:36 PM by TurkeyOnRye »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #73 on: May 09, 2021, 03:45:02 PM »
Chronic mole,

Offhand, I do not see anything wrong with your recipe, and the thickness factor based on your pizza size of 15" comes to [(450/28.35)]/[(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08982, which is fine for a NY style pizza. Normally, sugar is not needed for a dough that is to cold ferment for less than two days or so but it does help improve crust coloration in a typical home oven setting, as Tom Lehmann so noted in his NY style dough recipe at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

If you still want a 24-hour dough what you might want to try is to increase the amount of IDY to about 0.6-0.7%, with the hope that it leads to a faster and softer fermenting dough and an increased oven spring. In your case, you might also want to play around with the time the dough spends at room temperature after removing it from the refrigerator. I also think that I would lower the oven temperature to around 500F to let the pizza bake more slowly and longer and thereby get more crust coloration. I have used the broiler from time to time but usually it is for flours that are unmalted, such as 00 flours.

My practice when using a stone is to place the stone on the lowest oven rack of my home electric oven and bake the pizza on the stone until the bottom crust turns brown. I then move the pizza up to the top oven rack position to get more top heat and finish cooking the cheese and toppings while also increasing the browning of the top crust. The broiler could also be used but it might cook the cheese and toppings before providing more color to the crust. 

Some time ago, I created a post on baking pizzas in a standard home oven. I don't recall if I ever cited it to you, but it is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You will also note that I edit Reply 45 from time to time as I learn of other successful ways of baking pizzas in a home oven, or something equivalent.

Marrying a recipe to a given oven is a challenge that we all face, and none of us is spared that experience.

Peter

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #74 on: May 09, 2021, 03:57:25 PM »
Based on my experience, fermentation is the primary contributor to tenderness. There is a direct relationship between length of the fermentation and tenderness of the end-product. And the effect is obvious. Using my recipe, a same-day dough is extremely tough and 1-dimensional in flavor. 24-hours is better, but still very chewy and flavorless. 48-hours is better, but still not quite where I want it. After 72-hours, fermentation starts to make a real impression. And after 4 days, the end-product becomes very good, with fermentations in excess being exceptional.

24 hours isn't very long for a cold fermentation. Of course the amount of time your dough can tolerate fermentation is dependent on the starting quantity of yeast. The digestive enzymes in the dough need time to do their work. Too much starting yeast will end up inflating the dough before enzymes and other metabolic agents have enough time to digest the flour. Thus, choosing a starting quantity of yeast is almost synonymous with balancing the desired length of the fermentation. Have you ever eaten cooked dough that has not been allowed to ferment? It's tough, dense, and will give you a stomach ache. This is why emergency doughs have so much yeast and why they taste like crap. Having said all that, I think the amount of yeast you are using is fine. I think you could definitely push the fermentation out to 72-hours, if not longer. Also very important is ensuring that you are working with a dough that is well-proofed before stretching and taking care to not push out too much air.

Hydration and heat also make a big impact. Pizza dough cooks more efficiently with a higher hydration. And the faster the heat is applied to the dough, the more ovenspring you will get. Stones are ok, but steels are much better. Seriously, they make a big difference and they do not get enough credit. One of the mistakes I see newcomers make all the time is focusing too much on the minor stuff. Like oven rack placement, protein content, etc...meanwhile ignoring the major points like hydration, fermentation, and cooking with the right equipment. For me when I was a new pizza baker, failing on these points came down to being afraid of working with high hydration doughs, not wanting to spend the money on a steel, and being too impatient to ferment the dough long enough. In my opinion, those three simple things—long fermentation, high hydration, and sudden heat using steel—give us the best shot at the desired outcome in the woefully-inadequate home oven that most of us are working with.

Oh, and regarding browning...

Fermentation will help slightly with that also. Not much though. Many accomplished pizzaiolos recommend using a browning agent such as diastatic malt powder. Again, the home oven is just inadequate. However, you should get a fair bit of browning if you're using a broiler. It looks like you have quite a bit of flour left on the cornice. Try minimizing the amount of flour on the cornice as much as you can without sacrificing your dough's mobility, and that should help. Still dissatisfied? Brush the cornice lightly with olive oil before the bake.

As always, thank you for your insight .

I’m not sure if my alll purpose flour can handle a 72 hour ferment - the dough was already full of ‘air pockets’? At the bottom and to the side after 20 hours.

1. Based on my recipe do you think I’m using the right amount of yeast to sustain a 72hr ferment?
2. Working with high hydration dough is a bit intimidating - even at 63% the dough was so soft and tough to handle - any advice in this regard ?
3. Overall how would you tweak my dough recipe ( including hydration).

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Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #75 on: May 09, 2021, 04:00:00 PM »
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour

Offline Chronic mole

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #76 on: May 09, 2021, 04:03:21 PM »
Chronic mole,

Offhand, I do not see anything wrong with your recipe, and the thickness factor based on your pizza size of 15" comes to [(450/28.35)]/[(3.14159 x 7.5 x 7.5)] = 0.08982, which is fine for a NY style pizza. Normally, sugar is not needed for a dough that is to cold ferment for less than two days or so but it does help improve crust coloration in a typical home oven setting, as Tom Lehmann so noted in his NY style dough recipe at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/lehmann-nystyle.php

If you still want a 24-hour dough what you might want to try is to increase the amount of IDY to about 0.6-0.7%, with the hope that it leads to a faster and softer fermenting dough and an increased oven spring. In your case, you might also want to play around with the time the dough spends at room temperature after removing it from the refrigerator. I also think that I would lower the oven temperature to around 500F to let the pizza bake more slowly and longer and thereby get more crust coloration. I have used the broiler from time to time but usually it is for flours that are unmalted, such as 00 flours.

My practice when using a stone is to place the stone on the lowest oven rack of my home electric oven and bake the pizza on the stone until the bottom crust turns brown. I then move the pizza up to the top oven rack position to get more top heat and finish cooking the cheese and toppings while also increasing the browning of the top crust. The broiler could also be used but it might cook the cheese and toppings before providing more color to the crust. 

Some time ago, I created a post on baking pizzas in a standard home oven. I don't recall if I ever cited it to you, but it is at Reply 45 at:

https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=2223.msg20965#msg20965

You will also note that I edit Reply 45 from time to time as I learn of other successful ways of baking pizzas in a home oven, or something equivalent.

Marrying a recipe to a given oven is a challenge that we all face, and none of us is spared that experience.

Peter

Thank you, Peter.

Originally I did not intend to make this a 24 hr dough but when I looked at the dough I was afraid if I left it for longer the dough would over ferment and turn out like my previous effort. I saw a post somewhere here that when you look at the dough from the bottom of the translucent Rubbermaid and there are a lot of “holes” at the bottom and coming up on the side - the dough  probably should be used. Am I wrong ?

I will take your advice as always and read the attached links.
If I left

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #77 on: May 09, 2021, 04:13:54 PM »
Chronic mole,

It is possible that in your case the heat of the Bahamas is speeding things up. As member TurkeyOnRye mentioned, the amount of yeast you used should have allowed for a much longer fermentation period. But there are a couple of things that you might have done to improve your dough's performance. First, you should use water cold enough to achieve a finished dough temperature after kneading of around 70 degrees F, and maybe even a bit cooler because of your elevated Bahamas temperature. Second, when you place your dough ball in the refrigerator, leave the top of the container uncovered for about a couple of hours, to allow the dough to cool faster. You can then replace the cover. These measures, along with the amount of yeast and other temperatures (such as the temperature of the dough ball at the time of using to make a pizza), generally dictate the final results.

Maybe you followed the above advice but I don't recall seeing it in your posts.

Peter

Offline TurkeyOnRye

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #78 on: May 09, 2021, 04:58:25 PM »
I might bite the bullet and just buy this flour I found for my next bake to replace the all purpose flour

I have baked with this flour many times before and have had good results. In fact, in 2016 I inquired with customer service to see if I could get a more exact answer to what the protein content of their flour is. Here is their response:

Thank you for contacting Bob’s Red Mill.

Our Artisan Bread Flour contains 12.5-15.00% protein.

Feel free to contact us with any additional questions.

Have a wonderful day!


Amber Olson
Customer Service
Bob’s Red Mill Natural Foods
1-800-349-2173

Offline Anton1

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Re: First time NY pizza fail -help me please. UPDATE : still need help.
« Reply #79 on: May 09, 2021, 06:12:47 PM »
Chronic Mole

Have you considered the quality of the water used?

Which island are you on?

Reading this report https://www.sam.usace.army.mil/Portals/46/docs/military/engineering/docs/WRA/Bahamas/BAHAMAS1WRA.pdf may be of help.

Anton1
My Title? Call me anything except, "The Late".

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