Trying Lehmann dough with Ischia starter-Stealth Formula

[Pete-zza]

In my last attempt I let that dough bulk ferment for 5 hours.

Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

It is difficult to be precise on how long to let the new dough ferment at room temperature because of all of the variables. However, I think you want to see some signs of fermentation, such as volume expansion and/or fermentation bubbles, before cold fermenting the dough. If the conditions are the same as when you made your last dough, you might want to check the new dough at about 3 1/2-4 hours, or even sooner, to see if the dough shows signs of fermentation. The objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation period and replace the difference with cold fermentation.

Peter

I can understand the objective is to shorten the bulk fermentation time and replace that difference with the cold ferment.

I will watch the new dough to see what happens, when I mix it tomorrow, and then decide when to ball and cold ferment the dough. I want to ball and cold ferment in less time to see what will happen.  I will also check the pH of the Ischia starter before using it.  All the conditions should be the same as when I made my last attempt.  It now is hotter in my area so the air-conditioner is on again. 

I had to run some errands and picked up the pH meter from market.  I took the pH of the Caputo dough and it is 5.41 and the KASL dough is 5.30. I found that interesting because the two doughs were made back to back, but just with different flours. I also decided to take the pH of my tap water and it was 7.70.  I then took the pH of the water I get filled in gallon jugs, which I always use to make my doughs and the pH of the jug water was 7.37.

I am going to change a variable in my next attempt at the dough tomorrow.  I had used Real Salt in all my experiments up until today.  Since I want to be able to see if any Ischia doughs might work at market, I am now going to start using the Morton’s Kosher salt tomorrow.

Pictures below

Norma

[norma427]

I removed the Ischia starter from the refrigerator this morning a took the pH of the starter, before I fed it.  The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.88.  I also took the Caputo dough pH and now it is 4.66.  The KASL dough pH is 4.89. It surprised me on how much the pH has gone down on both of the doughs. I also measured the poppy seeds and they are both 1 1/8 inches apart on both of the doughs.  The bottom of both dough do have more bubbles than yesterday. I don’t know what these numbers are going to be able to help with, but will take the pH of the Ischia starter after it more active after I feed it.

Picture of pH of Ischia starter.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

Thanks for posting the pH numbers. They are interesting to see and assess. I would have expected the Ischia starter to have lower pH numbers because of its high hydration (100%), which speeds up the prefermentation process. However, once the Ischia preferment is added to a much greater amount of dough with a much lower formula hydration (a total formula hydration of around 61% in your case), I would expect the pH of the final dough to decline during its fermentation but at a lower rate. I originally guessed a final pH value of around 5, and some subsequent research said that the optimum pH for the lactobacillus was 5, but there is no reason why the numbers can't go lower. However, if they get too low, that can cause problems, as we earlier discussed.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I sure don’t understand all this with using an Ischia starter when sourdough has a lactobacilli and then them eating the sugars that are available, but think that it is temperature related to producing acetic acid though the enzyme activity of the yeast.  I would think that more sugars would be available at lower room ferment temperatures than higher temperatures.  Just by watching two same doughs with different kinds of flour, I can see a difference in the way the Ischia starter is behaving in terms of pH. I am also trying to understand that although the same amount of flours were used in the doughs, since the Caputo dough seemed more hydrated, if that is why the pH numbers are changing different than the KASL numbers. I am also curious since these dough are dropping so much in pH is they are having enough residual sugars to maintain the cells inside the yeast, to be able to have a successful bake.

I am ready to used the Ischia starter to make a dough.  I didn’t take the pH of the starter right now, but will take it before I mix it in with the other ingredients.  I will also take the pH of the finished dough, after the finished dough is bulk fermented, and then in the next few days will also take the pH.  You are much better than I am at understanding what this numbers mean or don’t mean.  I will post the other numbers soon.

Norma

[norma427]

The pH of the Ischia starter was 3.73 before I mixed it into the other ingredients.  The pH of the final dough was 5.77.  I did use Kosher salt today.  The final dough temperature was 78 degrees  F.   Sorry in the final dough (in the picture), it can be seen what the numbers read.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

I don't have an explanation at this point for why the Caputo dough and the KASL doughs have different pH readings. There are many differences between the two flours. For example, compared with the KASL flour, the Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is milled differently, has a lower protein content (and maybe even a different quality of protein), a lower rated absorption value, and is unmalted. It's possible that you sped up the fermentation process of the Caputo dough by using a hydration value that was the same as you used for the KASL. A fairer comparison might have been to use a hydration value for the Caputo dough that was closer to its rated absorption value. In the final analysis, what is likely to be more important, and possibly more useful, is to know what the pH numbers are when time comes to bake the pizzas.

You are correct that more sugars are likely to be released at lower temperatures than higher temperatures. That is because the amylase enzymes that break down damaged starch to simple sugars have a sweet spot in terms of its performance. November discussed this subject, along with some other useful information, at Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg37892.html#msg37892. You might also take a look at Reply 6 (and the links embedded therein) at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10219.msg89830/topicseen.html#msg89830.

In the final analysis, especially where you will be working with room temperatures that are not under completely your control to make doughs that are only under your control in a limited way (in the refrigerator/cooler), the variation in results you achieve may be hard to analyze and comprehend and work backwards to teach you what to do with the next doughs with their own sets of variables. To succeed on a consistent basis, you will have to learn to operate more like an Italian pizzaiolo. You won't see them talking about pH values, the Arrhenius equation or any other esoteric and arcane aspects of sourdoughs that even the experts can't completely understand and agree on. Yet, a good pizzaiolo will know when he has achieved a final dough with the desired characteristics.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

You are probably right about the Caputo flour, using a hydration closer to its absorption value.  I am taking both the KASL and Caputo doughs over to Steve’s today to bake in his WFO.  I know that won’t tell me anything about how these doughs would bake in my deck oven, but I will take the pH before the bake.  It is very warm in our area today and until I get to Steve’s home, and then do the bake of these doughs, they are probably going to ferment more.

November sure knows what happens inside dough.  I only wish I could have that much knowledge.  As he says it is a delicate balance what goes into the dough and then when to use the dough.  It’s also interesting what pizzanapoletana had posted about mixing dough and oxygen.  He said, after all the oxygen is used up from the air (or oxygen) then the dough starts to ferment.  I always thought when the dough was mixed it then started the fermentation process.  He also talks about using malt to increase enzymatic activity in the dough.  That Arrhenius equation is way over my head. 

I doubt if I will ever learn to operate like a Italian pizzaiolo, but will try to understand what I can.

I did measure the pH on the bulk fermented dough after I balled it and it was still 5.77.  I will watch it over the next few days.  The dough was bulk fermented for 3 1/2 hours.   

Thanks for the links,

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

November also discussed how yeast makes use of oxygen at Reply 14 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg33947.html#msg33947. You might also find his post at Reply 31 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4517.msg48023/topicseen.html#msg48023 of interest.

One of the most interesting things I learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen is that increasing the oxygen to the yeast does not meaningfully increase cellular respiration. I always thought that getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing. I even had an exchange on this subject with member pieguy at Replies 167, 169 and 171 starting at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1298.msg13846.html#msg13846. As it turns out, it looks like pieguy was correct. You can see my summary on this subject after my exchanges with November at Reply 7 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7022.msg60428/topicseen.html#msg60428.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

November’s posts are very helpful.  What I find interesting is his posting of if you want more acetic acid to aerate the dough more and ferment at temperatures of 86 degrees F.  He also posted to get a good balance of acetic and lactic acids try cooler temperatures for longer periods and lactic acid levels aren’t affected by the amount of oxygen as much as acetic acid.  I also see how you learned from November about how yeast uses oxygen. 

I didn’t know if getting more oxygen to the yeast was a good thing or not, until I read the links you provided.  Thanks for the links.  I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

I went to Steve’s home and baked both of the KASL dough and the Caputo dough.  I am sure since they were baked in a WFO they came out much better than my deck oven.  The first pizza with KASL was baked at a higher temperature than the Caputo dough.  Steve was also trying some different experimental doughs and the first bake was the KASL dough.  The last bake was the Caputo dough.  In my opinion these pizzas turned out great.  They had a good taste in the crust and had nice oven spring.  Steve took the pH’s of his doughs and I took the pH’s of my doughs.  The Caputo doughs pH was 4.65 right before the bake and the KASL dough was 4.82 right before the bake. Steve’s pH’s were higher for his experimental doughs. The Caputo dough was much softer and it was harder to open, but not too bad.  The skin wanted to basically open itself.  I really enjoyed these pies from both of these doughs.

I did take a video of the Caputo pie baking in Steve’s WFO.  After I upload that video, I will post it.

Pictures below of the KASL and Caputo pizzas,

Norma

[norma427]

more pictures

Norma

[norma427]

end of pictures

Norma

[norma427]

Video of Caputo flour with Ischia starter pizza baking in Steve’s WFO.  This pizza was the longest bake time of the four pies made this evening.



Norma

[norma427]

The dough I mixed yesterday and that is cold fermenting in the refrigerator has a pH reading of 5.34 this morning.

Norma

[Pete-zza]

I also there- in those links you provided that pizzanapoletana  posted, with the proper PH ratio and starter consistency, the yeast work much faster then the bacterias Is that true and does that also apply to making pizzas and not just bread?

Norma,

I believe the graph at http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/graph1.jpg, which came from a post by member djones148 at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8526.msg73739.html#msg73739, answers your question. Also, I would guess that the same phenomena are at work with pizza dough as with bread dough.

The pies look very good. Which pizza has the pepperoni? And what sizes were the pizzas?

Can you comment on the characteristics of the finished crusts as baked in a WFO and also comment on how they compare with your deck oven pizzas using the Ischia culture?

Peter

[norma427]

Norma,

I believe the graph at http://www.egullet.com/imgs/egci/sourdough/graph1.jpg, which came from a post by member djones148 at Reply 4 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8526.msg73739.html#msg73739, answers your question. Also, I would guess that the same phenomena are at work with pizza dough as with bread dough.

The pies look very good. Which pizza has the pepperoni? And what sizes were the pizzas?

Can you comment on the characteristics of the finished crusts as baked in a WFO and also comment on how they compare with your deck oven pizzas using the Ischia culture?

Peter

Peter,

That graph does answer my question.  Up until about 76 degrees F, the yeast and bacteria stay about the same.  When going higher in temperatures there is a faster activity with the sourdough. I find it fascinating that the bread world and pizza world are so similar. 

Thanks for saying the pies look very good.  The pepperoni pizza was the Caputo flour with the Ischia starter.  All the pizzas were 14". 

To describe the characteristics of the finished crusts baked in Steve’s WFO, the crusts are much better than when baked in my deck oven.  The bake is so much quicker and then it also leaves the crumb so much moister.  The pie that I baked at market on Tuesday was this moist, but with a quicker bake there is a difference. 

The first pictures are of the KASL with Ischia which is the same formula that I used at market, but didn’t cold ferment the dough as long.  I liked that pie the best in terms of moistness in the rim. That pie also got the best oven spring. The oven was really hot for that bake and it really baked fast.  That crumb was moister than the one made with Caputo with the Ischia starter.  Steve might disagree with me on what he thought was the best crust between the two pies, but this is my opinion. We don’t always agree. There wasn’t any sourdough flavor in either of these crusts, that I could detect. There was a complex flavor in both crusts, but I thought they were different.

I don’t ever think there can be a same kind of pie baked in my deck oven, but the pizza I did bake Tuesday, was good in my opinion, if the crust would have gotten darker and I could learn to control the gum line.

I really enjoyed these pies baked in Steve’s WFO.  There were only four people at Steve’s home and we managed to eat three pies. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

Norma,

When you have a chance can you prepare a chart of some sort that shows the pH values for the Ischia culture and the doughs at different stages? I believe you first started measuring pH values at Reply 156. I think you made two separate batches using KASL and Caputo Pizzeria flour, one of which was used at Steve's (I can't figure out which of the two sets of dough balls), and that you made a new batch yesterday, although it is not clear to me whether that batch is also a KASL/Caputo pairing. I think there were a total of five or six dough balls. Maybe they can be numbered accordingly.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I started taking the pH of the Caputo and KASL doughs, both with Ischia starters at reply 161 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,11700.msg111357.html#msg111357
I used both the Caputo and KASL doughs with the Ischia starter at Steve’s.  All the pictures I posted here above from Steve's home were made from both of those doughs.  The first pizza was made with the KASL/Ischia starter.  They were the pictures I posted with no pepperoni.  The pepperoni pictures were made with the Caputo/Ischia starter.  The new batch I made yesterday is just one dough ball and that is KASL/Ischia starter. 

I will make up a chart with all the pH numbers and see if we can find anything significant from those numbers.  I will keep measuring the pH numbers from day to day, until I do the bake of those dough balls.  I have only started to measure the pH of the Ischia starter before I incorporated it into the water, before mixing the other ingredients in.  I also will keep the pH’s of any Ischia starters before I mix them into the other ingredients. 

On a side note, Steve did take the pH of his experimental doughs before he baked them, because I took the pH meter along.  I don’t know if you will find this interesting or not but his one dough was 5.49 and his other dough ball was 5.44.  Neither of those dough balls were with the Ischia starter.  He made one with a Caputo poolish, incorporated into a KASL flour dough and the other dough was a Caputo flour with cake yeast. I am not sure exactly what he used in those formulas, expect what I posted above. 

Norma

[Pete-zza]

On a side note, Steve did take the pH of his experimental doughs before he baked them, because I took the pH meter along.  I don’t know if you will find this interesting or not but his one dough was 5.49 and his other dough ball was 5.44.  Neither of those dough balls were with the Ischia starter.  He made one with a Caputo poolish, incorporated into a KASL flour dough and the other dough was a Caputo flour with cake yeast. I am not sure exactly what he used in those formulas, expect what I posted above. 

Norma,

In order to properly compare Steve's pH values with yours, we would need to know the mode of fermentation (e.g., room temperature fermentation, cold fermentation, or a combination of both, and a final temper) and the duration of the fermentation process that Steve used to make his doughs. Generally, I would expect that a commercial preferment will not produce as much acid as a natural culture but the answer may turn on how much preferment Steve used, the fermentation protocol, and the total fermentation time. It does not sound like Steve was trying to mimic your efforts but using a commercial preferment instead of a natural one like you used.

The graphs shown in the "Acidification" section at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Acidification shows how pH values change with fermentation temperature and time. Your "graph" would differ because of the use of a three-step fermentation protocol, with the final pH value occuring just before using the dough to bake a pizza. Steve's "graph" would also reflect what he did with his dough.

Peter

[norma427]

Peter,

I can understand to compare Steve’s pH values with mine, we would need to know what he did with his dough.  I know he figured his dough out on one or more of the calculating tools on this forum, but I really don’t know how long he fermented his dough.  I think his one dough was room temperature fermented, but I am not sure.  I will see if Steve wants to post his formulas, fermentation times, and whether the dough or doughs were cold fermented. 

In the next week, I will make some type of graph. I don’t know if I will have time to post a graph like is shown at the "Acidification" section at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm#Acidification  Right now I am busy learning at my part-time job.  I will take the pH of the dough I just made daily for the time being.  I am learning on the computer at work and also hands on how to do many things.  I am even learning to be a Barista.    That is fascinating to me.  They even serve pizza were I work, but I haven’t had time to check that out. 

Do you have any idea if a graph will help, in determining when the best time is to bake a pizza with the Ischia starter?  Did any other member ever do studies on this before?  Sorry to be asking all these questions, but I was just curious.

Norma