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Offline msergio

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Long fermentation and flour’s W
« on: May 10, 2022, 05:26:19 PM »
I have a question about sourdough pizza related to fermentation time and flour type.
Suppose these two situations:
1- a dough fermented during 8 hours in total, with great results after baking
2- the same dough now fermented at a lower temperature for 32 hours, reaching the same "point" as the previous one.
As the second dough has a “long fermentation”, would flour’s W be a concern, requiring a higher W than the first dough?

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2022, 05:46:20 PM »
A lot biochemical stuff goes on during fermentation besides the creation of CO2 gas. Enzymes and acids have longer to degrade the protein in longer fermentations, however enzyme activity declines rapidly with temperature. As a rule of thumb, enzyme activity slows by half with each 10C drop in temperature.

Some thoughts on the subject: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline msergio

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2022, 10:33:54 PM »
"Enzymes and acids have longer to degrade the protein in longer fermentations, however enzyme activity declines rapidly with temperature. As a rule of thumb, enzyme activity slows by half with each 10C drop in temperature."
I think my question is exactly the equation quoted above. How to figure out the result?
My practical situation is: if I decrease the amount of starter and lower the temperature (still RT, no CF) to extent fermentation time, should I use a higher W flour?

Offline Yael

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2022, 10:36:47 PM »
I have a question about sourdough pizza related to fermentation time and flour type.
Suppose these two situations:
1- a dough fermented during 8 hours in total, with great results after baking
2- the same dough now fermented at a lower temperature for 32 hours, reaching the same "point" as the previous one.
As the second dough has a “long fermentation”, would flour’s W be a concern, requiring a higher W than the first dough?

msergio,
In your example, if the 32H-dough reaches the same "point" as the 8H-one (I understand "point" meaning texture and flavor?), then you don't need to change for a higher W...

A lot biochemical stuff goes on during fermentation besides the creation of CO2 gas. Enzymes and acids have longer to degrade the protein in longer fermentations, however enzyme activity declines rapidly with temperature. As a rule of thumb, enzyme activity slows by half with each 10C drop in temperature.

Some thoughts on the subject: https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=41039.0

Craig,
I read and liked your post some time ago (even though I didn't read all the following pages), I learned a lot, but I was kind of puzzled with my own tests when I made a YT video (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=66449.msg695462#msg695462). I compared 24H RTF and 24H CF, expecting to get a better result with the RTF one. Well, at the end, both were very close!! The CF would have needed 1 or 2 more hours proofing because it was a little bit more elastic, but flavor-wise they were very similar...
Well, there could have been some factors that impacted my taste buds, like psychological, IDK...
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline msergio

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2022, 07:05:02 AM »
msergio,
In your example, if the 32H-dough reaches the same "point" as the 8H-one (I understand "point" meaning texture and flavor?), then you don't need to change for a higher W...
Yael,
By same "point" I mean about the same fermentation stage, not the result after baking...

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Offline Yael

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2022, 08:16:46 AM »
Yael,
By same "point" I mean about the same fermentation stage, not the result after baking...

Oh I see, your question makes more sense then! That "point" would be "the sweet spot".
I think that within limits and regardless to Craig's link above, any flour could do both (meaning weak/low W flours could make long fermentation, and strong/high W flours could make short fermentation) if the yeast amount and the hydration are correctly adapted. Obviously, there's a challenge in pushing a weak flour to its max. For instance, while many suggest to use high protein flour to make high hydration dough, a Facebook friend of mine made a 24H-CF 80% HR teglia dough with a W200 flour only (which would be around 10% protein or even less, on Italian standard).
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2022, 09:19:55 AM »
Craig,
I read and liked your post some time ago (even though I didn't read all the following pages), I learned a lot, but I was kind of puzzled with my own tests when I made a YT video (https://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=66449.msg695462#msg695462). I compared 24H RTF and 24H CF, expecting to get a better result with the RTF one. Well, at the end, both were very close!! The CF would have needed 1 or 2 more hours proofing because it was a little bit more elastic, but flavor-wise they were very similar...
Well, there could have been some factors that impacted my taste buds, like psychological, IDK...

There are all sorts of variables that are hard to quantify, much less, control, and sometimes pizza just does what pizza wants to do.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline msergio

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2022, 09:32:12 AM »
Yael,
Yes, the sweet spot... which is difficult to be sure that would be the same.
I think the Sourdough Prediction spreadsheet helps, as I don't have a pH meter.
My previous experience is with sourdough bread, for a couple of years, mostly using CF and sometimes same-day RT proofing.
I started making pizza using CF also, but as I read about RT long fermentation with very low starter percentages, I am wondering how this can affect flour degradation.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2022, 09:44:26 AM »
"Enzymes and acids have longer to degrade the protein in longer fermentations, however enzyme activity declines rapidly with temperature. As a rule of thumb, enzyme activity slows by half with each 10C drop in temperature."
I think my question is exactly the equation quoted above. How to figure out the result?
My practical situation is: if I decrease the amount of starter and lower the temperature (still RT, no CF) to extent fermentation time, should I use a higher W flour?

Honestly, I think it's counterproductive to worry and obsess over things like W. I think the best plan is to experiment. See what works and what doesn't and adjust from there.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline msergio

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2022, 09:55:09 AM »
Craig,
I agree.
I was just trying to know if someone could have the answer, either from experience or by theory.

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Offline Yael

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2022, 10:41:19 AM »
Well, yes, in theory the higher the W the longer the fermentation, simply because the stronger the flour, the more the gluten; and gluten needs time to be weakened in order to become digestible.
But a high protein flour fermented during 8H at a relatively high RT (let's say 35°C, with a high yeast and enzyme activity) will certainly be better and more digestible than a low-protein one baked cold after 48H CF... Get the idea?
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

Offline Red Panda Can

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2022, 05:43:33 PM »
Well, yes, in theory the higher the W the longer the fermentation, simply because the stronger the flour, the more the gluten; and gluten needs time to be weakened in order to become digestible.
But a high protein flour fermented during 8H at a relatively high RT (let's say 35°C, with a high yeast and enzyme activity) will certainly be better and more digestible than a low-protein one baked cold after 48H CF... Get the idea?

There comes the old digestibility discussion again. As far as I know, there is not enough substantial research that supports the digestibility claims many pizzaiolos make.
I think a low-protein dough won't behave great after a 48h CF, but that has nothing to do with digestibility.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #12 on: May 18, 2022, 08:35:43 AM »
There may be a nugget of truth to the digestibility claim, however I largely agree that it and other myths like adjusting the water based on the humidity of the day, are urban legends of the pizzaiolo   :-D
« Last Edit: May 18, 2022, 08:37:34 AM by TXCraig1 »
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, baker's yeast when we must, but always great pizza."  
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Offline mosabrina

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2022, 08:55:29 PM »
I have chron's disease and I find that neapolitan pizza that is soft and light is the easiest to digest for me. I don't eat any other pizza. If the crust even has a slight bit of chew or it's not perfect I just throw it out. No point even trying.

I don't know that fermentation times matter as long as the dough is light.

I was looking for flours that were low fiber at one point but not sure I have noticed a difference or how accurate the fiber in the nutrition facts is anyways.

I've come to notice that digestibility for me is just how light it is when I'm eating it and ingredients or anything seems to matter less. If I could have the lightness of canotto style crust but with a thinner rim that would be the most ideal. I've had a couple I've made like that but it's not consistent for me.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2022, 09:02:33 PM by mosabrina »

Offline Yael

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #14 on: June 11, 2022, 02:34:10 AM »
There comes the old digestibility discussion again. As far as I know, there is not enough substantial research that supports the digestibility claims many pizzaiolos make.
I think a low-protein dough won't behave great after a 48h CF, but that has nothing to do with digestibility.

You can make good 48H-CF dough pizza with low-protein flour, that was not the point.  :chef:
I think it's simple: raw dough VS baked dough. Raw dough is not digestible, as much as any chewing gum. I'm no scientist but I think everyone would agree. Raw dough (or let's say at least the "gummy line") is the result of a poorly fermented and/or baked dough.
Anyway, when my mother, who reduced her gluten consumption, eats my pizza, she never has any digestion trouble; and no, it's not because she loves me and all ;D , other people experienced it too.

[...] like adjusting the water based on the humidity of the day, are urban legends of the pizzaiolo   :-D

I totally agree on this one and I'm glad you say it. I've been reading it from many people and always thought "this is a bit too much".
“Learn the rules like a pro so you can break them like an artist” - Pablo Picasso

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Offline SlackWaterPizza

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Re: Long fermentation and flour’s W
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2022, 05:26:19 PM »
You can make good 48H-CF dough pizza with low-protein flour, that was not the point.  :chef:
I think it's simple: raw dough VS baked dough. Raw dough is not digestible, as much as any chewing gum. I'm no scientist but I think everyone would agree. Raw dough (or let's say at least the "gummy line") is the result of a poorly fermented and/or baked dough.
Anyway, when my mother, who reduced her gluten consumption, eats my pizza, she never has any digestion trouble; and no, it's not because she loves me and all ;D , other people experienced it too.

I totally agree on this one and I'm glad you say it. I've been reading it from many people and always thought "this is a bit too much".

I have to chime in saying i too cant really handle most pizzia joint pizza's or friend made... i think most of that ="Raw" as in made an hour ago with to much yeast and no time to grow.. its a Raw, badly fermented bread, thats sweetened up to cover the lack of the natural sugars  the yeast is supposed to create over time.
the other "Raw" is most american makers, make american, and it has to much topping on it, to thick of a crust, so 90% of the time i bite in to one, there a "RAW UNCOOKED" dough under the toppings and on top of a hard btm crust... i wont go to pizza places with people unless its a cpl specific places ill even go to....

as far as humility...the other day i made up a poolish, when adding my 2nd half the wtr was to dry, i had to add more wtr as the humility was so low... same ressipie same exact thing i did last week, and before, and before, and before, but this time made me notice it..

interdasting topics here.. i love it

Slack...
""The process starts out the same whether you are making "Bread or Beer". Enzymes in the yeast convert sugar into alcohol and carbon dioxide. With bread, a baker wants to capture the carbon dioxide to leaven the bread and make it rise. With beer, a brewer wants to capture the alcohol.""
--I Want Both--

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